The title of this recording is "Trevor Morley - Wellington Vice Squad". It is described as: Trevor Morley talks about working on the Vice Squad in Wellington in the 1970s; including cases involving Carmen Rupe. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 3rd April 2012. Trevor Morley is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 1 hour and 2 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Trevor Morley talks about working on the Vice Squad in Wellington in the 1970s; including cases involving Carmen Rupe, the movie Deep Throat and other indecent performances. The content in the recording covers the decades 1950s through to the 1970s. A brief summary of the recording is: In a comprehensive interview conducted by Gareth Watkins on April 3rd, 2012, Trevor Morley provides a detailed account of their work with the Wellington Vice Squad in the 1970s, situated in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand. With a focus on policing vices such as gambling, prostitution, and pornography, Morley elaborates on the societal norms and laws of the time, noting the fluidity of societal morality over the years. Morley began their police career in 1961 and became a detective in the Wellington CIB, where they were later assigned to the Vice Squad. As part of the Vice Squad, Morley and their sergeant looked into various activities deemed immoral, many of which have since been decriminalized or normalized in contemporary law. For instance, Morley recalls that during their service, laws around bookmaking, solicitation by sex workers, and the legality of prostitution differed significantly from today's standards. The interview delves into notable cases, including those involving the famous Carmen Rupe. One significant legal case discussed was the "Carmen Trial," wherein Morley and the Vice Squad investigated Rupe for operating a brothel. The case challenged existing perceptions of gender and prostitution and eventually led to a precedent that a male could be legally considered a prostitute in New Zealand, thus contributing to the changing landscape of sex work legislation. Morley also touches on their work in cracking down on pornography, describing their role in the major investigation of the movie "Deep Throat" and detailing the cultural attitude shifts that allowed for more relaxed censorship over time. Throughout their narrative, Morley describes the interactions with figures from various facets of society, including the sex work community and campaigners like Patricia Bartlett of the Society for the Promotion of Community Standards. They reflect on how these interactions created an understanding and a form of mutual, if complex, respect between the police and those they investigated. Morley provides insight into how the enforcement of morality laws affected both those being policed and the officers themselves, highlighting the nuanced relationship between law enforcement, personal belief systems, and societal standards. Their tenure in the Vice Squad was characterized by intriguing investigations and the management of societal pressures and expectations, offering a unique perspective on the evolution of moral standards within the police force and New Zealand's legal system. The full transcription of the recording begins:  Uh, I joined the police in January 1961 as a cadet. Graduated from the police college at Trentham in August 1962 and spent the rest of my career in the police in the Wellington area and mainly as a qualified detective in the Wellington CIB. Now, in the CIB, the staff are separated off into various squads the drug squad and, uh, the car squad and the burglary squad, and so on and so forth. And there was a vice squad, uh, albeit there was only two of us on the squad a detective sergeant and myself as his detective. And, um, I didn't ask to be put on it. Uh, you don't ask to get put on any particular squad from time to time, the bosses get together and decide that, Uh, well, Trevor's been this long on squad, so it's time we gave him a bit of experience in some other area of policing, and it just happened that at some stage in my career, they decided that I would stop doing what I was doing, which I think was the car squad, and that they would put me on the vice squad and I had no problem with that. It was just another squad that you did some work on. What did the vice squad police? Well, um, it's interesting, because in particularly in America, it's often called the Morals squad. Uh, which is a very actually descriptive term because vice is is a problem of, well, not a problem. Um, though some governments see it as a problem, and some societies see it as a problem, But, uh, vice is a matter of morality. What can be a A crime? Uh, in some countries of the world, uh, may not be a crime in others, and in fact, we've had that phenomenon here in New Zealand just in my very short lifetime. Uh, because there are now no vice squads in any police, uh, district anywhere in New Zealand, simply because our laws relating to morality, in other words, relating to vice have completely changed. But going back to the sixties and seventies and into the eighties, we did have a number of laws which endeavoured to control the morality of the nation. Uh, we had laws, and we may still have laws making bookmaking illegal, illegal gambling on race horses because the government wanted everyone to gamble through the TAB and thereby get the tax and so on and so forth. And there's often a monetary background to these laws. Um, prostitution whilst prostitution itself per se was not illegal. Uh, it was illegal for someone to importune someone on a public street. And it was also an offence to live off the earnings of prostitution. It was also an offence to keep a brothel and various other offences relating to brothel keeping and sexual crimes. That though I'm not talking about rape or any other kind of violent sexual offending that was handled by another squad in the CIB. Uh, pornography, Uh, the vice squad would enforce the laws relating to pornography. And, uh, there was an indecent Publications act. There was an indecent publications tribunal, and certainly in my day, that related mainly to printed material. Um or, uh, uh, video tapes. We didn't have DVD S in those days. Uh, and in fact, when I first went on to the voice, the VCR and the video cassette had not not quite been invented yet, so I can remember we season and had a lot to do with little small rolls of silent eight millimetre, uh, coloured film. Um, so there was indecent publications, um, prostitution and similar crimes relating to that and illegal gambling. They were most probably the three areas of interest to the vice squad and bearing in mind. And and you know of the reasons why we're talking today is because sexual acts between consenting males was still a crime. We hadn't had that liberal, uh uh, expansion of the law to make that illegal. So we would look at that that aspect of the law as well in terms of our investigations. So when you're saying sex between males, are you talking? Are you referring to things like, um, patrolling the beats or No, no. What I what I'm talking about is that in those days in the late 19 sixties and into the seventies, when I was on the voice squad, it was an offence for a male of irrespective of age, to quote indecently assault another male, even though it may have been done consensually. Now, we didn't necessarily, um, pay a great deal of attention to that kind of law, except that in those days there were quite a few, Um what were incorrectly called transvestites but which were adult males who would dress in female clothing. And, again, a complication. In those days, a male could not in law be a prostitute. OK, so you would have the phenomena of males dressed as females walking the streets of Wellington Vivian Street, for example. But they weren't committing an offence because they weren't a prostitute. Had they been a female in female clothing or even a female in male clothing, walking the streets and touting for business, they would be committing an offence. But males weren't but nevertheless, uh, a number of quote straight, unquote. Straight males would see these individuals and assume that they were a female, and so they would enter in some conversation and go around the corner or into someone's house or whatever. Now we became involved in investigating those activities. Firstly, because there was a crime being committed, the crime of one male indecently assaulting another male, albeit there was consent involved. But that was consent obtained to some degree by fraud because the a guileless member of the public who thought he was engaging in some sexual relationship with a female was an actual fact engaging in a sexual relationship with a male. So there was that, shall we say, fraudulent aspect involved there, Which is why we tended to wouldn't exactly say concentrate. But if we came across that kind of, uh, offence happening where it would be drawn to our attention, then we would investigate it. So we had this element of fraud involved in a importuning of members of the public by men dressed as women who were not prostitutes because of the law but were committing a criminal offence because they were a male and decently assaulting another male. So did you find that people would come to you and complain that this had happened to them? Or is it just when you discovered it by accident or sometimes we would discover it by accident. And sometimes we would get complaints. We would sometimes get complaints from members of the public who perhaps had, uh, shops or retail businesses. The kinds of things that we're still finding now are happening in New Zealand because the prostitution laws have changed. It's now left over to local authorities. And, you know, we've got the phenomena down in Christchurch where where the prostitutes used to congregate in certain streets in the CBD. No longer can because they're red zone. So they're going out to the suburbs, and they're upsetting the residents in the suburbs. So that kind of, um, antagonism towards the sex industry, um, existed during my time, but for different reasons. And it still exists today because people find it antisocial and, you know, the the flow on effects of the behaviour. So we wouldn't, um, patrol what you might call the beats because the beats, as I understand it from from from a male homosexual point of view, would be where adult male homosexuals would go to establish a relationship fleeting or permanent with another male. And everybody knew that it was a male and a male. But as I say, we would become interested in the aspect of a male dressed as a female because there was the fraudulent aspect of it. Plus, it was still a crime. So when you saw, um, street workers, did you actively discourage them from from being on the street? How how did that work? Well, it was it was an interesting situation because we we had no power to say Get off the street because merely being on the street because they were a male and males could not be prostitutes meant they were not committing an offence. So I mean, we would talk to them. They knew who we were. We knew who they were. They knew we knew what they were doing. And, um, if we hove into view, they would, you know, very quickly disappear until we hove out of view. And then they'd be back on the corner again. So it was AAA, um, not exactly, um, a losing battle. But at least we would endeavour to keep them off the streets because we knew that sooner or later there was gonna be some disgruntled adult males out there who the next day might be coming down to the voice squad or getting their lawyer to ring us up to complain about what had happened, and they'd feel that they'd been defrauded. They thought they were going to have some kind of sexual encounter with an adult female, and but it's turned, but it turns out they're having a sexual encounter with an adult male. But if it was illegal for women to be prostitutes, surely in the General public, they would know that if they saw somebody on the streets, it wasn't wasn't going to be a woman. Oh, no, no, not necessarily. The fact that it that it was that only females could be prostitutes wasn't widely known amongst the general public. Um, in fact, I would venture to say that very few of the men in the street would have known that, um I'm just trying to think of of a of a corollary in in regard to the law. But, um, uh I mean, there's just many aspects of the law that the lay person just doesn't know about. And it's only when you start getting into having to administer the law, such as the vice squad and prostitution. You know, the If a woman was standing on the street, then you know, she appeared for all intents and purposes, to be a prostitute. Um, and we went up and spoke to her. She very quickly, you know, verus. But if it was a man, they could stand there quite brazenly, almost. But the the the punter as the, uh, the the the poems like to call him to the punter. That person was for all intents and purposes a female, a prostitute available for hire. Can you describe for me the, um, internal attitudes in the police force around the 19 seventies towards, uh, transgender gay and lesbian people? Not a lot of transgender people around in those days to to start with genuinely transgender? Um, the the the first. I was just trying to think of what her, um what her, uh, business name was, and it may come to me, but, um, in fact, a transgender individual featured in a major court case that I was involved in that actually was instrumental in reversing the law or opening the law. Which is why you want to look at it that, in effect, said, yes, a man can be a prostitute. And that was a case, uh, that we had with Carmen. It's been well reported on. And I know Carmen and her extremely well. Um, and I know she won't mind me talking about this, but, um, we had a, uh, an investigation where we believed Carmen was clearly keeping a brothel and or living on the earnings of a pros prostitution and committing various crimes under the Crimes Act and operating out of her coffee bar in, uh, Vivian Street. So we got an undercover agent to come up from down south, an elderly police officer. And he went in there and spoke to Carmen and introduced himself to Carmen and had a chat to Carmen. And no sooner had he spoken to her, and he had a bit of a gift for the gab, as did Carmen. She had arranged for him, uh, to with a young lady who was on the premises to go off to his hotel room, which we'd arranged. So he left with this woman, went to the hotel room, we followed, um gave him X amount of time to get part of the way into the operation. Though he undercover agents, of course, never, ever engaged in any sexual contact with any of these women. And it transpired that this woman and I use those words in quotation marks was not a woman. He slash she was transgender, and it transpired that he had been born a male baby boy, for all intents and purposes, a young boy, But later in life, he had gone overseas and had had a full physical sex change operation um, breast implants, the whole thing. And, um, I in fact, when we went in, burst into the hotel room. Um, I remember seeing him standing naked beside the bed. Um, and he sure looked for all intents and purposes, like a female. And it was only when we were back at the vice squad office interviewing him about what had happened between him and the undercover agent and him and Carmen that we discovered that he was. Although the word transgender then hadn't been sort of invented, if you will. He was, for all intents and purposes, a male, genetically he was, and biologically, he was. So that put us in a bit of a bind because, as he had been born a male and was, for all intents and purposes, biologically a male, Then he couldn't be a prostitute. So therefore, how were we going to convict Carmen from running a brothel or living on the earnings of a prostitute? And it became a very, very interesting case. I think the chief judge, the chief justice heard it at the time. Roy Stacey defended Carmen and a lot of medical evidence that had to be given by both the crown and the defence, um, for each side to say why this person either was or was not a male or a female. And the judge, of course, had to leave it to the jury to decide whether they were going to convict Carmen. And this I still can't think of his name. Anyway, The upshot of it was was that they did find both Carmen and this chap guilty of the offences of living off the earnings of prostitution, et cetera, et cetera, which in effect said yes, a man can be a prostitute under New Zealand law. It's what they call case law, not actually written in statute. You can't go and pull a book down and say, You know, it's This is an offence, But by case law, um, it established the fact that, yes, a man could be a prostitute under New Zealand law. So that was, um, that would have been sort of the first notable instance that I would have had any dealings with a trans genuine transgender person. And that would have been, I suspect, about 1971 or 72. Um, you see, Carmen was, for all intents and purposes, always a guy. You know, There was no doubt in anybody's mind, um, that she was underneath her flamboyant seat, uh, that she was a guy. Um, whereas this individual, um was it Carol de Winter? Was it Carol Can't think she had her photo, Her naked photographs. Some truth on may have been. I'm not certain. I just can't remember at the moment, but, um, yeah, so that seemed a bit of a benchmark. Um, but as I say, in terms of genuine transgender people, she would be one of the very first that that I certainly came across on vice. There were others that came along in years gone by, but, um, they were, by and large what we misnamed as transvestites. I just men dressed in women's clothing. Um, people like, um, Carol, if it was Carol, um, I wouldn't I would never call Carmen a transgender because I'm pretty certain she while she had breast implants from the point of view of physical operation, she never went any further than that. I'm pretty certain, and I think she said so herself. Um so it was mainly a mixture of actual prostitutes, women, the occasional transgender, such as as as Carol you mentioned, um, and then people like Carmen who were, um, still overtly a male. But I suppose depending on how many sheets to the wind you were, you know, you could be confused for thinking that she wasn't a male and that she was a female. But, I mean, we were dealing with these, as I say, misnamed transvestites quite a lot. And and it never ceased to surprise me how a presumably straight, uh, individual could import tune one of these transvestites and not realise that they were dealing with a man. Uh, because, you know, some of them were very big boys, Um, and and in in their in their garb, they just they were almost caricatures of females, you know, to to. But I suppose that's because I was dealing with them all the time and talking with them and interacting with them, And that sort of thing became very obvious to me that they were males. Um, but I suppose if you're, you know, staggering out of the, um uh, the hotel at, you know, 10 o'clock at night and you saw someone dressed in a skirt across the road. You know, the brain says, Hey, that's a girl. But just going on to you, talking about the beats in terms of male homosexuals you know, trawling if you'll excuse the phrase for for other males of a like inclination, um, we had pretty much enough to do without concentrating or investigating that kind of thing a lot. It was certainly crimes being committed male and decently assaulting another male, albeit with consent. Um, but unless we got a specific complaint, I remember there used to be some. In fact, there still are that they are being refurbished men's toilets round at Lyall Bay and they were apparently a a, uh, a favourite meeting spot. And from time to time, we might get a complaint from a, uh a straight male who had gone to use the toilets and and had possibly been importuned. Or there was AAA male homosexual hanging around clearly wanting to meet up with someone for sexual activities, and they that would be offensive to the straight guys so they might complain to us. But we certainly never particularly targeted the beats and that sort of thing, and really only, um, investigated activities of straight males on beats when we got a complaint. As I say, with all the other vice squad things we had to we had enough to do. You've mentioned the word importuned a number of times. Can you tell me what that means? Oh, importuned means soliciting. In other words. If, um, uh, if I was a male homosexual and I wanted to see if I could hook up with someone, uh, then I would perhaps go to the toilets out at Lyall Bay or the ones that used to be in town, Uh, the infamous ones where, um, Colin Moyle got caught, so to speak. Um, I would go there, and I might, you know, stand at the urinal for just far too long. Uh, just waiting to see if someone was someone was gonna come in and if some guy came in, um, and even whether he, uh, made any recognition or any sign or gave any idea that he was looking for contact, uh, the other person would, you know, start talking to them, perhaps, and introduce some, um, sexual overtones to the conversation and that sort of thing. So you're importuning soliciting? Same sort of thing. I'm just wondering if we can go back to, um maybe some of the attitudes within the police about, um, transvestites. Can you recall? Were there any words that were used to describe them, or how were they treated with? I mean, were they treated with respect, or were they kind of looked down on, or I wouldn't say they were treated with respect, But then again, I wouldn't, uh, difficult to, um just trying to think of the right words there. Um, they were, as I say, they were misnamed from the whoever decided to call them transvestites. I don't know. That's just something that they grew up in society. And it wasn't just a police jargon. It was a word that was widely used in the media. Um, and the word gay, I suppose, hadn't quite come into common usage then in terms of a male homosexual who looked like a male dress and female dress and female clothing. Um, I mean, we would arrest, um, transvestites. We perhaps come across them in a car with somebody perhaps, um uh uh, masturbating them or doing some kind of a sexual act so we could then arrest them for being a male and decently assaulting another male. Albeit it was done done with consent. So we would arrest them, put them in the car, take them down to the police station, interview them, get a statement from them and, uh, keep them in the cells overnight. Um, in the morning, uh, they'd be given breakfast. We had what was called line up, Uh, where they where the prisoners kept in overnight would be individually brought into a room, Um, and just questioned as to what their name was, who they were while they were there and behind a big sheet of, um, one way glass. That'd be the rest of the CIB and other staff on just so they could get to see who these people were. But, no, they I wouldn't say they were treated in in in any other special or different way. They were just another criminal. I mean, they were looked upon as having committed a criminal offence. Um, so they just sort of were processed through the court and through the through the police cells. I certainly don't, um, uh, have any recollection or even of hearing any sort of rumours of of, um, transvestites or transgender people, uh, being treated in any other way. Other than that, they're a human being. But they're a crook. You're a criminal. So we've got to get them through the process. And before the court, were they segregated in any way in the police cells? Uh, no. Down at Central, we had a pretty big double row of one. First floor, ground floor, first floor, row of cells. Um, so and I would have think that seven a 12, we could have had upwards of 16 or 20 cells. Um, bearing in mind they weren't there for very long. Um, if they'd been arrested at, say, around midnight or one o'clock in the morning, they were only there from that point on until, uh, they went to court at half past nine. They'd get bailed at court, so they'd only be in the station for about eight hours. Um, I would suspect that and be bearing in mind. You see, when? When when a detective arrests someone and takes them down to what's called the watch house. Uh, it's the watch house keeper who's a uniform branch constable who's in charge of all the prisoners and in charge of the cell block. And it would be that officer who would decide into which cell any particular prisoner goes. And I would think as a matter of course, they would Most probably segregate, um, transvestites. Um I mean, if there was two or three of them arrested in one night, they might put them all in one cell together. Um, just for company, for no other reason. Um, but I doubt that they would, in fact, put them in a cell with another criminal just because you didn't do that. Anyway, offenders were normally segregated, particularly if they were arrested in connection with the same thing. So did many of those kind of raids happen on on, um, brothels? Oh, we would raid brothels. Um, I was gonna say on demand. Um, there were certainly, uh, quite a few of them operating in Wellington. And we would get information from time to time, usually from neighbours who were saying, Oh, they'd ring up, you know, Or they'd get someone to come in and tell us that you know, such and such a place is a, um uh is being run as a brothel. So we would carry out some surveillance on the place to see whether or not there was, in fact, um, a brothel being run. There were the females only living in the house. How big a house was it? What number of bedrooms were there? Uh, who was the landlord? Could he be approached? Um, how would people get up there? How would they get back that sort of thing. And, um, you would soon work out that. Oh, yeah. You know, from eight o'clock at night, there's a continual stream of taxis going from the, um you know, from the, uh, the bank in Courtney Place just down from, um I forget the name of the coffee bar and, um, Marie Bank Street, um, which was frequented by Japanese seamen. And they they would go to certain houses in Wellington. And it didn't take us long to work out where? So we do some surveillance, Um, get sufficient evidence, get a search warrant. Wait until there were, you know, three or four males inside the house and crash bang the front door, So yeah, quite simple. And as I say, we would just do that on demand, so to speak. You know, we we might develop the case ourselves because of something that we've seen, you know, just driving around. And I saw that cab at that house the other day, and now it's back at the house on the time of night or the same people coming and going, that sort of thing. We sometimes develop them ourselves. Sometimes we get some information from the public. How did you feel enforcing? Um, these kind of morality laws. Interesting question. Um, I didn't feel anything in particular because it was a law that they were breaking. Um, and I'm just trying to think of a of a bit of a in regard to other laws. Um uh, take bookmaking. Now, We would often work on a Saturday afternoon because that's when bookmakers work. And we would go and kick in the doorways of shops because the guy was back at his work instead of running his book from home. He'd run it from the back of his shop or houses. And what have you now? I don't gamble. I'm not interested in horse racing anything like that at all. But it didn't take me long to do a bit of crash banging of doors to realise that bookmakers were actually providing a service that is substantial or not necessarily substantial, that AAA sizable percentage of the population actually wanted else they wouldn't be in business. Um, and I just thought about that and thought that was an interesting thing to sort of way of looking at it. But and it seemed to me that the state should have been providing some kind of a way to regulate this illegal industry so that it no longer existed and all the tax that was not being paid on those earnings was going into the coffers. Um, so whilst I held this particular view that gee, the government should be doing something about this, I never expressed it to anyone. It was just a purely personal, um idea or or or 10 that I held in my brain. Um, and I still went out there and kicked indoors. Um, take, uh, what's another, uh, morality law? Abortion. Now, when I grew up in Hastings, um, we were a Church of England family. Went to church once a month. Boy Scout. All that kind of car on the subject of abortion was never mentioned, of course, because in the fifties and sixties. You didn't talk about those sorts of things. Not deliberately. It was just something that you know people didn't talk about. So I joined the police. And during the course of my 18 months as a cadet, uh, and we started looking at all the crimes under the Crimes Act abortion, unlawful killing of an unborn child, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where I first became aware really of abortion and how it was done and that sort of thing. So I thought, Oh, yeah, that's that's the crime. So that's what we do. And I was involved in several abortion investigations when I was in the CIB. Not because that was part of the vice squad, because it wasn't, uh, one of the squads was just collect you known as the General Squad and anything that came in that wasn't specifically named for a squad got given to the general squad, and I was on general for quite a while and did a number of, um, abortion investigations when I was, uh, on General one in particular was a taxi driver, uh, who would go around doing abortions. And he kept his abortion kit wrapped up in a I don't know whatever in the boot of his taxi, which I didn't think it was a very good idea. Um, there were other abortionists who operated outside of Wellington, and I again I came to the impression understanding or knowledge that this was something that shouldn't be a crime. But it is a service, a health service that the state should provide to the public. But despite holding that view and as a view I still hold, I had to go out and enforce that law because that's what I had sworn to do when I put my hand on the Bible and said, You know, blah, blah, blah when I became a police officer. So and I I think that kind of, uh, conflict, um, would exist with many, many policemen. Now, of course. And as I mentioned earlier on, um, abortion is pretty much legal these days. Bookmaking most probably still exists, but not to the degree it used to. Uh, we haven't talked a lot about pornography, but I mean the pornography that we were dealing with in the sixties and seventies, you can now go and rent for a dollar a night down at your local video shop. Um, and that's all changed. Um, and abortion is is is virtually, um, you know, AAA state provided service now, so all those crimes of morality are no longer crimes, so they've changed. But even if they hadn't changed, I would still hold the view. If I If I was still in the police, I would still hold the view that the state should be in a position to provide these, um, services. Uh, because there are people who need them from time to time. And actually, in regard to the abortion thing, you may know the name of Doctor Margaret Sparrow. Um, she's very, uh, heavily involved and has been for decades in the legalised abortion movement. And she wrote a book a couple of years ago on the history of abortion in New Zealand. And I spoke to her and went into quite a lot more detail. And, um uh, about, you know, the way that I approached the, uh, the investigation of abortion. It was a crime. So that's what you investigated you mentioned before about Carmen. And I'm just wondering, um, when did you first meet Carmen? Hard to say. Um, I most probably met or came across car. And before I actually, uh, was transferred onto the vice squad just because I was a detective in Wellington and she was AAA figure, you know, someone to get to know in Wellington and that sort of thing. Um, so I don't actually remember that, but I do remember, And I may have related this anecdote to you before I do remember that when I got transferred from whatever squad I was on onto the vice squad and my sergeant was a chap by the name of Paul Fitzharris, and he was only about as tall as I was. So we were the sort of two shortest detectives in Wellington. Why they did that, I don't know. And of course, Carmen and many of her friends and associates were quite big people, you know? But that was OK. But the interesting thing was that it didn't take, uh, Carmen's, uh, associates to become aware that my first name, Trevor was the same as Carmen's real first name. Now, one thing I quickly learned on the voice squad was that you never, ever addressed a transvestite transgender person by their real name. You found out what their, uh, pseudonym was, if you will. And that's how you address them, because that's how they like to be addressed. So whenever I spoke to Carmen, it was Carmen. Never. Trevor never ever thought of calling her that. And she always called me Detective Morley or Detective Sergeant fitters. And that was the way we conducted our business. Um, and you know, and and Paul Terras would would tell you if he was here, that Carmen was one of the most pleasant people we ever had to deal with in in our voice squad days. But so here's Detective Trevor Morley walking into Carmen's International Coffee bar in Vivian Street. And this is not long after I'd been transferred onto the vice squad and people began to know my name. And within a few seconds of walking through that door into the haze and the fog and the thug and the coffee and the smoke and all that sort of thing, you'd hear echoing through the coffee bar, Trevor. And of course, Carmen would turn around and and, you know, look daggers at whoever she thought had said that because you just didn't call her by that name in front of other people, and she would eventually work out who was calling out, and she'd go and she'd stand in front of them and wave a big fat finger under their nose and say, How dare you? And they would look at her with, you know, mock solemnity on their face dead pan and say No, darling, I was talking to Detective Morley, so if you'll excuse the pun, I became the butt of some jokes amongst the transgender and transvestite community, but it was all just part of that fun. But you know, that night that we arrested Carmen over with that that investigation I mentioned before with with I think it might have been Carol. Now, um, you know, she was pleasant to deal with, you know? No problems. Come with us, Carmen. Yes, of course. You know you'll ring Mr Stacey for me, will you? But of course, Carmen, as soon as we get to the station and Roy would come down and, you know, you're just very pleasant to deal with. Yeah. So was that quite a regular thing? Her being arrested? Oh, no, no, no. Uh, we arrested her on that occasion. there was another. I think we might have arrested her twice. Um and I think it was after the second time that she decided it was time to go to Australia. Um, so I think I could claim some responsibility for terminating her initial, uh, career in Wellington? Um, no, As I say we arrested at that time, there was a second occasion, I think, where a young policeman went upstairs to the rooms above the coffee bar. Um, there might have been a third occasion. I think if there was a third occasion, she was acquitted or the judge or the jury couldn't agree or whatever, but she could see the writing on the wall. Um, the other thing is that it became extremely well known amongst the police and amongst the public at large that Carmen was, in effect, running a brothel. Now the question was, If there's a vice squad and that someone is popular and as public as calm and running a brothel, how come she ain't being arrested? Then? Of course, the answer is she's most probably not being arrested because she's paying off the police. So there was no way we were going to let that kind of rumour flourish because, uh, it's in the area of vice that corruption can occur within police departments. And it's happened, you know, overseas. And in fact, the only just quickly digressing. The only time in my whole 70 year in the place, 70 years in the police that anyone ever came halfway to trying to bribe me was when I was on the vice squad. And it was a bookmaker that we, uh, arrested running a book out of a house in, uh, Brooklyn. And we crashed. Banged the front door this Saturday afternoon, and as we ran down the hallway, he ran into the kitchen and picked up a briefcase and threw it out the kitchen window. So we had a young policeman with us to give us a hand. So he went outside and ferreted through the bushes and found the briefcase, bought it in, opened the briefcase, and it was chock a block with cash. You couldn't have got another dollar note in there, so this is interesting, he said. What's that for Joe? He said, Oh, it's for me to pay out on my winnings or or my losings on, uh, tomorrow Sunday or Monday before the banks open. Oh, it's all right. So we got into the car to go back to the vice squad office to lock him up, and he'd, incidentally, had one previous conviction for bookmaking and bookmaking was one of those very rare offences whereby for a second or subsequent conviction, you had to go to jail and he didn't want to go to jail. So we're driving back. Uh, and for some reason, Paul for Terrace was driving. I was sitting in the back behind Paul on the back seat between me and Joe was the briefcase with the money. And we're driving down Brooklyn Hill Road and Joe sort of leaned over and sort of give a nod towards the the bag of money. And I said, Oh, yeah, What? He said, uh, why don't you get the sergeant to slow down at the bottom of Brooklyn Hill and I might just fall out of the car and leave my bag behind, I said, Oh, that's not a bad idea, Joe. I said, Hey, Paul caught Paul's eye in the re. We went, Hey, Paul, do you want to slow down at the bottom of the hill, he said No, What do I want to do that for? Well, Joe's, um, just given us the night on the briefcase here, he said, Oh, is that right? I said, Yeah, he thinks he might. You know, if you slow down enough, he could fall out of the car and leave the briefcase behind. Oh, I said, Paul, you know, all in sort of mock seriousness. He said, Uh, how much is in the briefcase? I said, How much is in the briefcase? Joe Joe said, Oh, there'll be a good 10 grand there, I said, There's a good 10 grand there. Paul and Paul just looked at me and said, Yeah, it's not enough, is it? That's how we dealt with it. We could have charged him with attempted bribery, but you know it just But yeah, that's the, uh, you know, I and I'm quite certain if Paul had wanted to slow down, Joe would have jumped out because 10 grand to him is better than going to jail. Yeah, but only it only ever happened on the boy squad, which to me, was, you know, pretty typical. That's where that's where the corruption comes. from. So that's another thing why we couldn't not prosecute Carmen. Uh, yeah, You just could not let people carry on committing, committing vice type offences without doing something about it. So with Carmen, was it very much a kind of a cat and mouse type thing that I mean, you knew the game. She knew the game a lot. A lot of a lot of a lot of crime is like that. I mean, we would go around some of the nightclubs and coffee bars late at night, and, um, we would, um, Paul and I would end up playing, um, playing pool with some quite well known criminals me and a crew, another criminal, Paul, and playing that. But there was always this sort of undercurrent, this undertone that they knew we were the police and they knew that if they were gonna commit crime the next day and we caught them, they were gonna get locked up. This game of pool had nothing to do with it. And we knew that we were the police and they were criminals. And if they were committing crime tomorrow and got away with it, well, that was their good luck. there was There was this sort of gentleman's, uh, rules, Shall we say the Queensbury rules of fighting crime? Um, nowadays, it's a lot different. I don't think those kinds of relationship exist anymore between the police and the criminal fraternity. Um, but yeah. And we would often meet up with, you know, with well known criminals and, you know, have a beer in a hotel with them and then carry on. Um, just so that, you know, we knew they knew that we knew that they knew sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. How did come And and the rest of the girls kind of feel about police? What did they have names for you guys if they did? Um, it's not. It's, uh I'm just trying to think if they did, they must have kept it to themselves, because, um, I mean, usually, the the the interaction we had with them, um I mean, we'd pass the pleasantries of the day or the night, but that wouldn't take very long. And then we might have to, um, interview them about some complaint or something or other. Um, I mean, it was like when, um when the massage, the massage parlours first came in, It was just a euphemism for a brothel. You know, um, we would go around there, not so much, talk to the girls, but talk to the mad and the lady who was running it. And again, it was just, um just to let them know that we knew what they were doing. Um, and as long as they had no drugs in the place, as long as none of the customers got rolled or beaten or had their wallets taken from them, then they'd be OK to carry on in business. It was a sort of a tacit understanding between the the forces of law and the forces of water. And I mean, that's all been taken care of now with the with with the the new, Um, but the court Is it the mass parlours act or something different anyway? But, you know, B brothels are now legal. Um, And again, it's just another way that morality has within my short lifetime, gone sort of a full, you know, 3 60 degrees. Yeah. You were also saying that part of your work was indecent publications. Was there much? Um, gay, lesbian, transgender, indecent publications not a lot. No, I'm just trying to reflect on that. Um, most I would think, um, I would think that 90 5% possibly even higher was your heterosexual, uh, pornography in those days. It was, as I say initially, um, silent eight millimetre film. Um, then, um, Deep throat came out, and we we had a major investigation about that because some guys imported a copy of it from America, made a negative copy of the film, which was on two big 16 mil reels with soundtrack and the whole lot. And then the original went down to the Antarctic for Operation Deep Freeze. And these two guys who worked out at the National Film unit, um, were going to make their millions by taking copies of the negative they've made and sell them. So it was originally imported into New Zealand to be then shipped down to Antarctica. Well, not well. It was originally, uh, taken out, taken out of the continental USA to go to the Antarctic on an operation deep free ship. And they always called into Wellington on the way. Um, and these two guys out at the national film unit how they became aware of it? I don't know, but they did. And they were able to keep the film for long enough to make a copy of it. Um, but just going back to your original question. So heterosexual pornography, Um, eight mil film. Then, um, that came out on a 16 mil. Then the, um in fact, we had so many, um, eight mil reels of film that we got a little, uh, manually operated film editor because we just didn't have the time to run the whole thing through. And you'd put the reels on and wind them through and have a look at the picture and wind them through again. And we had to do that because one or two people got clever and, um, particularly when VHSS came in, they would have the first few feet of the film, you know, a Walt Disney cartoon, and then it would be the pornography. So, um, but no, um, very, very little of it from memory. Hardly any was was gay. Um, I accept, um, gay in terms of of a male on male, female on female, totally different, because that that has a seems to have a particular interest for a lot of guys, Um, and females, of course. Um And then, uh, magazines, tonnes and tonnes of meat. We get them by the, um, imported from, uh, from out of Europe and that sort of thing, and we send them out to the big shredder that a shredder government had a shredder out at or somewhere. Um, but no. Very, very little gay pornography in those days. Very little. And now, of course, it's all pretty much legit. Unless it's really serious stuff. Deep Throat story. Can you continue with that? That sounds fascinating. Oh, OK, let me just go back very quickly, OK? These two guys employs the national film unit. Um, got hold of this copy of the of Deep Throat, made a negative copy of it, gave the original back to the sailor, and I went down to Operation Decrease. With this negative, they surreptitiously over a period of time during their lunch hours and sneaking back at night, made a original print of the negative one that you could actually view. So they're in a little theatre in the national film unit, out at one night watching this first print to see what it looked like. But the manager of the national film unit had, of course, heard on the grapevine what was going on. He knew they were in there with a couple of their mates, so he burst in on them, grabbed the two rolls of film out of the projector, went outside, threw them in an incinerator and burnt them, went back in and said, There piss off because you both fired and he fired them on the spot and some months went past and nothing happened. And he thought that he managed to quell the fire, so to speak, and that he kept the lid on this thing until one Friday afternoon. The director general of the tourist and publicity department, which no longer exists. But we didn't know that and which controlled and ran the national film unit. The DG is in the in his office in town. He gets a call one a Friday afternoon from the editor of Truth, who said, Oh, look, I want you to listen to what's gonna be the headline front page of next week's truth on Tuesday, bearing in mind, this is Friday. I want you to comment on it, Oh, says the DG Oh, what What's the headline gonna be? The headline is Government Department Prince Blue Movies. Who said the DG Can I get back to you on that? One hung up and immediately rang the commissioner of police because he knew nothing other than that. But that was enough to give him the willies. So at that particular day, I was My sergeant was away, and I was the office acting and sergeant in charge of the vice squad. And I had a, uh, a young detective to just assist me. So we go over to the commissioner's office, get told to head down to the director general of tourism and publicity, and he said, Look, I've just had this phone call. I don't know what it's all about, but go out to the national firm and talk to the general manager. So we go out to the national film and talk to the general manager, and that's when he tells us this little back story about him burning the film, you see? So I said, we better get on to this. So one of the guys, one of the offenders, uh, graham, lived out way. So in case he still had a film or something, like he went and got a search warrant for his house, went and knocked on his door. This would be near about eight o'clock on the Friday night said, Come with us, mate. We're going to have some meaningful dialogue in the vice squad office. So he realised that he'd been caught, you see, So we get back to the vice squad office and have a lengthy interview with him, and he tells us the story. Take all that down on the statement. That's fine. So we take him downstairs to the White House and say, Right, you're staying here. You're not going anywhere. We got to go and get your mate, get a search warrant for his house and go up to Brooklyn. And it's now getting till, I suppose, or at least midnight one o'clock in the morning. And this was a fellow called John, and his name will come to me. John, someone knock on the door, light goes on inside Door opens, and there's John in his pyjamas, and I say, Hello, John. We haven't seen each other since the sixth form at Hastings Boys High School. Get your jammies off and your suit on. We're going to have some meaningful dollar. So we're going to interview him. And he tells his side of the story, which agrees with his co offender. But what the manager of the National film Unit hadn't realised is that when he had ripped the two reels of film out of the projector and burnt them, he thought he was destroying all the evidence. But the negative was still in existence. He didn't know about that. But we found that out by interviewing these two guys into the early hours of the Saturday morning. So and we went all when I remember going out to lower hut at one stage, we eventually located this negative copy the two reels of negative in a suitcase under a beard out somewhere. So we thought, OK, that's interesting. So we wanted to prosecute these two guys with printing an indecent document which Deep Throat was in those days. It was indecent, but the problem was, the document they had printed had been destroyed. So how were we going to prove that what they destroyed wasn't decent? And in those days you had to get the and I think, I think. And still, in these days, to get the prosecution under the Indecent Publication Act, you had to get the solicitor general's permission. So file goes off the solicitor general and he wrote back and said, Well, how are you gonna prove that it was indecent because it's been destroyed? And then I suddenly thought, I know how we can do that, Got the two negative copies, went back out to the national funeral one morning, went into the general manager's office and said, Remember that headline that truth was gonna publish? He said, Yep, Government department makes blue movies. Yep, I said, Well, we're gonna put that into practise. He said, What do you mean? I said, Here's the negative. Make me a copy. He said, I can't do that. I said, Yes, you can. And they did. And I followed this negative all through this process of of, of making a copy because we knew from the evidence we could produce to the court that this was the one and only negative from which a document had been printed, which was indecent but which had been destroyed. Therefore, this copy they were now making for me was identical, so I knew it was gonna be a fight. And so we had a case. And and, uh, Roy Stacey defended one of these guys and then a judge. He's a lawyer who's now a judge of the high court, defended the other guy. So of course we have the case and there's a few preliminary witnesses and what have you? And then I stand in the witness box and I've got these two rolls of film that they'd made for me at the national funeral. And I could see Roy Stacey shaking his head like this, and I'd hardly got one. You know, Exhibit A if you want, Please hang on. Mr. Morley, who said So there was this huge big argument as to whether or not we could produce this copy from the negative, which we were going to say is identical to the one that was destroyed and there was a big legal argument of it. Big legal argument of it, and anyway, eventually, the judge said, Well, before I accept this as an exhibit, I think I better have a look at it. So we we took took one of the conference rooms at police headquarters and, um showed the judge the film, and he eventually agreed that yes, on the basis of what we said to him, we could circumstantially prove that this was identical to the item that had been destroyed and he convicted both of them. So that was a bit of an interesting landmark case, A bit like the case with Carmen, uh, and the male being a prostitute. And that here was a case, and I think it's the only time it's ever occurred in New Zealand law. Here was a case where people were convicted of printing an indecent document that at the time of their conviction, no longer existed. But as I say, you go down to your local corner video shop these days, and you can hire a deep throat for a dollar a night, you know, or even or even less so it's It's again, this complete change in morality just in a few short years. See, that would have been an investigation in the early seventies, I suppose. 72 73 83 9. You know, not even 40 years later, complete reversal in the in the laws relating to indecency. So it's a bit like that bookshop fellow and, um and I know Don. He runs the book Haven in Newtown. Someone discovered that he had a book in his warehouse called Bloody Mama. This is just earlier this year, late last year, early this year, which had been declared indecent in 1962. Yet it was still indecent. And he he, uh the indecent publications people came and took it off him, and, uh, they they re reviewed it and reclassified it as no longer indecent, because once something is declared indecent, it it stays indecent. Yeah, So then you've got indecent publications. What about, um, indecent performance? Was that? Oh, yeah, sure. Indecent performances. We'd go around the strip clubs and again talking about changes in morality. Um, we would go around the strip clubs, and in those days, uh, the strippers used to keep their panties on if I remember correctly. And in the early days, they might have had a little pasties on their nipples. But I think by the time I left the vice squad, those had being removed. Not because of anything specific. There was no law to say. It's like, um when the follies used to come out here in the 19 fifties. Um uh, some of the performers could appear naked, but they couldn't move. They had to stay in stock. Still, So they were almost like a statue, and the spotlight would come on them and you'd see a naked lady standing there, and then the spotlight would fade in and they'd go to another part of the stage, and there would be another lady standing there, but they couldn't move. I mean, it was it was almost as if by moving, they were going to be indecent. Yeah, but that had long gone By the time I got onto the voice squad so you'd have strippers at the Purple Onion and many Papadopoulos is club exotic. Um, And the other thing, of course, was that a lot of the strippers at Carmen's were males, you see, So, um, uh, they could take off almost as much as they liked, uh, because their were not per se indecent because they were a man's nipples. So it was the defining thing of indecency that if if you showed nipples, that was a that was not well, not necessarily. But as I say, I seem to recall that when I first went on the vice squad, most of the strippers had little pasties. They stuck over their nipples because for some reason, that was thought to be OK. But by the time the transition came, um, where they were no longer wearing pasties, Um, it wasn't because the Commissioner of police said, Yes, you can take your pasties off now. It was it was some sort of subliminal, subtle, kind of a sort of a, uh, I don't know, thought wave that went out through society that said, Oh, it's OK to do that now, most probably influenced from overseas, you know, people reading Playboy magazine and Penthouse and that sort of thing. Um, but I guess we would monitor will monitor call into the strip clubs and watch the girls stripping just to see what they were doing. And I remember one instance there was a woman at, um, Manny Papadopoulos Club. Exotic. And what did she do? She had a feather bower between between her legs, somehow or other. She was doing almost like she had this giant Penis, and she was masturbating, and we thought that's a bit too far. That's that's getting into the realms of an indecent performance. So we prosecuted her and Manny and got They were convicted of indecent performance some time later, and I can't think how long, but it couldn't have been more than perhaps 18 months to two years later. Back at the club Exotic. Same performance, we thought. What are they doing? You know, they mad or something, you know, get off the stage. You come on with this man here. Come on, mate. You're getting locked up. So we did. Went through the whole procedure again. But the judge or the magistrate on that occasion said no morality has changed, detective in the last 18 months to two years, no longer indecent. So it was little decisions like that that gradually chipped away. And I don't mean that in a negative way. Or or, um permitted the bounds of indecency to expand so that things that were once thought indecent, no longer work. I mean, you go to the strip clubs now, and it's, you know, total nudity. Absolutely. So I mean again, there's that change. Uh, you know, the things that happened were not that I've been in a strip club for a long time, but, um, things that happen in strip clubs now and some of the sex clubs in Auckland, um, just would not have happened in those days. They'd be straight into the clink when somebody was convicted of an indecency like that. How would it affect them? Would would it, you know, kind of ruin them or Oh, no, no. In fact, I think to some extent, it's almost a badge of honour. Um, it sort of showed that they were sort of prepared to push the boundaries and that sort of thing, Um, I mean, and and that it wouldn't prevent them getting work anywhere. You know, um, nothing like that at all. I mean, unless they suddenly wanted to go and work in a supermarket. But, I mean, they would. There was just a small group of people strippers who would work, you know, go between the various clubs. You'd find them dancing for Manny, and then they'd be dancing for, um, across the road. And that's all down with car and and up to Auckland. And, you know, with Ray and Hasty and that sort of thing. So, uh, no. Amongst amongst that, um that clique I. I would think that would almost be a badge of honour, so to speak. On the other side of the coin, did you have anything to do with, um, moral's campaigner, Patricia Bartlett? Well, I did, to the extent that she was one of our major complainants, but I can I can vividly remember going to see her out of her little flat unit out at nine. And she pulled this battered old suitcase out from underneath the bed to show me this terrible, terrible pornography, detective. But what it was was Playboys, penthouse and health and nature magazines. You know, I don't know if if Patricia had actually ever seen any real hardcore pornography and the organisation What was it? The Society for the promotion of Community standards? That's right. Um uh I mean, well, meaning, um, heart's in the right place, But I think that, like a lot of pressure groups in society, they, um, were accorded far more influence than they really should have had. So, yeah, I had some dealings with her, but not a lot on the other thing we occasionally went to I remember we went to a play at Downstage um, that had Now why did we go and see some again? Someone complained. Could well have been Patricia or one of her people. I think it was language and nudity. I think it was a nudity on the part of one of the female actresses. So, um, Paul and I went and sat in the audience, watched this play and put in a report and said, We can't see anything wrong with it, and that was it. So it was pretty much something like that was pretty much left to our judgement. You know, we could have said, Yeah, it's terrible, shocking, you know, naked. But But I think from the point of view of the nudity, I think it was because there was a nudity, uh, in a theatre, as opposed to nudity in a strip club where you would expect it. And I think this might have been one of the first plays, um, in a straight theatre, a genuine theatre, uh, involving, uh, nudity, particularly female. It might have even been male nudity. I just forget now nudity somewhere anyway, But then from memory, it was nothing to you know, to be bothered with. So you were on the vice squad. For how many years? Oh, look, I should have got all my I got all my notebooks out and had a look. Um, I left in 77 and 77. I was on the car squad. Uh, when I left, I'd gone to car squad from there. So 6543 I, I think at least a good six years. Why did you leave the police? Oh, it's time for a change. I've been in the police for 17 years, and I just felt that it was time to, you know, do something different. Yeah. Do you have any reflections on on your time in in the vice squad and and what we've been talking about over the last hour? Well, um, you know, to me, it was just another aspect of police work. Um, albeit very interesting. I'd often said, um, I often say to this day, if they left me on the vice squad, I'd still, you know, be in the place because I just found it very interesting and fascinating work. Um, the people that you met, that sort of thing. Um, but the only reflections Are you interesting? Uh, great people. Very interesting cases. I mean, that deep throat case. Um, the case with Carmen, those sorts of cases, um, were very interesting. Um, that you wouldn't get involved in other than being on the vice squad. And as long as you keep your nose clean and and, uh, you know any attempts to to corrupt you? Uh, yeah. I could have still been there. I wouldn't have been married any longer, but because it was not so, what would happen is I'd go to work about two o'clock of an afternoon. Wife's at work. Kids are at school, go to work, check some paperwork, make some phone calls. Da da da. And then Paul and I would get in a car and go into town somewhere for a meal for a dinner, and then we'd start going around the clubs and the pubs and what have you and most probably get home if we start to work at two. Sometime close to midnight. Right? Wife's asleep. Kids are asleep. I get into bed six hours later, wife gets up, kids get up. Wife goes to work, kids go to work. I wake up about 10 o'clock in the morning house is empty. We're living in the same house but not seeing each other. So certainly, um Well, I mean, a lot of not just saying voice squad work and certainly not just saying police work. Any shift work can be very debilitating to relate to, you know, good relationships. But, uh but no, I enjoyed it. And, um, as I say, fascinating people and, um, yeah. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1950s ; 1960s ; 1970s ; Antarctica ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Auckland ; Australia ; Bible ; Carmen Rupe ; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge ; Carol de Winter ; Christchurch ; Club Exotic ; Club Exotique ; Europe ; God ; Hastings ; High Court ; Job ; Joe ; Margaret Sparrow ; Miramar ; Patricia Bartlett ; People ; Poland ; Stuff ; The Balcony / Le Balcon ; The Purple Onion ; Trevor Morley ; Vivian Street ; Wellington ; abortion ; accident ; acting ; activities ; advice ; arrest ; assault ; audience ; backstory ; bars ; bear ; beats ; bonnet ; bottom ; boundaries ; broken ; brothels ; building ; cafe ; career ; change ; children ; church ; clothing ; clubs ; coffee ; coffee bar ; community ; conference ; conflict ; consent ; conversation ; courts ; crime ; crown ; cruising ; dancing ; disappear ; drugs ; face ; family ; fat ; fear ; film ; fire ; flamboyant ; fraud ; friends ; fun ; gambling ; gay ; government ; health ; heterosexual ; history ; hit ; homosexual ; homosexual law reform ; horse ; horse racing ; hotel ; indecent publications ; individual ; interviewing ; justice ; knowledge ; language ; law ; lawyer ; legs ; lesbian ; magazines ; media ; mock ; monitor ; morality ; movies ; nature ; news ; normal ; other ; pain ; pasties ; performance ; police ; pool ; pornography ; power ; prince ; prisoners ; rape ; reading ; recognition ; red zone (Canterbury) ; relationships ; respect ; running ; sailor ; school ; sex ; sex work ; shoes ; skirt ; social ; soliciting ; straight ; struggle ; surgeon ; surveillance ; the other side ; time ; tourism ; transgender ; transition ; transvestite ; tribunal ; trolling ; truth ; understanding ; uniform ; university ; vice ; vice squad ; video ; violence ; voice ; walking ; water ; wind ; witness ; women ; work ; writing. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/trevor_morley_wellington_vice_squad.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089240. Trevor Morley also features audibly in the following recordings: "Carmen Rupe memorial, Wellington" and "Launch of Carmens traffic light". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.