The title of this recording is "Trans ways of making - a panel discussion". It is described as: Audio from the panel discussion Trans ways of making. The event was held at Pātaka Art and Museum on 23 October 2022. It was recorded in Pātaka Art and Museum, 17 Parumoana Street, Porirua on the 23rd October 2022. This is a recording of an event and features the voices of Ana Sciascia, Jack Trolove, Louie Zalk-Neale and Tāwhanga Nopera. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 57 minutes, but this may not reflect the actual length of the event. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: Audio from the panel discussion Trans ways of making. Artists Jack Trolove (Pākehā), Tāwhanga Nopera (Te Arawa, Tainui, Ngāpuhi) and Louie Zalk-Neale (Ngāi Te Rangi, Pākehā) discuss the ways in which 'trans-ness' or 'between-ness' can be a dynamic methodology for making creative work. The event was held at Pātaka Art and Museum on 23 October 2022. A special thank you to the participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. The content in the recording covers the 2020s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: The panel discussion "Trans ways of making," which was held at Pātaka Art and Museum in Porirua, brought together artists Jack Trolove, Louie Zalk-Neale, and Tāwhanga Nopera to explore the intersection of trans-ness, or between-ness, as a methodology in creative work. The event, occurring within the exhibition "Thresholding" by Jack Trolove, provided an opportunity for these artists to delve into how personal experiences and identities can shape and inform their artistic practices. During the discussion, Tāwhanga Nopera addressed the panel and audience, sharing insights into how their identity and personal experiences influenced their artwork. Grounded in the Māori tradition of rāranga (weaving), Nopera discussed how the practice became a metaphor for their life and creatively forging pathways through trauma and marginality. As an artist and academic, Nopera underscored the importance of personal narratives and experiences in forming understanding and healing, making mention of the power embedded in the indigenous knowledge and experiences of their bodies. Louie Zalk-Neale also shared their artistic practices centering on the use of taura tikauka, or cabbage tree fiber rope, as a medium to embody their transgender experience and mesh it with Māori spiritual beings like taniwha and tipua. Zalk-Neale underscored the significance of inclusivity and cultural reflection of the diversity found in the natural world within their artwork. Through performances and body adornment, Zalk-Neale discussed embodying deep, ancestral knowledge and creating shared experiences that resonate with queer communities and beyond, demonstrating an intimate connection between transformation, environment, and identity. Jack Trolove addressed the audience with reflections on survival and the representation of trans bodies in art. They emphasized the power of embracing trans-ness as a creative superpower, challenging the negative discourse that often surrounds trans experiences. Discussing their own painting practice, Trolove described the influence of mangroves, natural threshold beings, on their work. They underlined how these plants' existence between land and water echoed the trans experience of existing between established categories, utilizing these parallels to further illuminate their artistic investigations into the in-between. Ana Sciascia facilitated the panel, providing not only an introduction but also guiding the discussion to delving into the experiences of being and transitions. The panelists were encouraged to honor past experiences - both personal and collective, and they underscored not only the struggle but the beauty and vitality of trans experiences and the creativity that persists. In summary, the discussion linked personal identity with wider cultural narratives, touching upon the potentially therapeutic and transformative aspects of the trans experience within art. The importance of re-narrating trans life as one infused with superpowers, against societal narratives of deficiency, was a consistent theme. By contextualizing work within both historical legacies and current lived experiences, the artists offered compelling views on how these elements are woven into their practices. The full transcription of the recording begins:  Tau mai ko te mauri o ho, ko te mauri o papa, ko te mauri i o te ahupapu, e, mauri. Kienau pea, kienau tauira, kienau rūru tawheto. ora, taonga kia ora, taonga ki a, hangi hui e. Te rā i a ngā tai o Te Awarawa o Porirua i ripo nei ki tēnei Pātaka ki runga, ko te marae ki raro. Nō reira, e aku nui, e aku rahi, nau mai, haere mai, ki Pātaka. Um, te tuatahi, he mihi ki a pētāwhana a i tūwhera tō tātou uh, E te ti, e te ta, nau mai hoki mai ki Pātaka. Um, welcome, everyone. I'm really looking forward to, uh, this afternoon's korero. Um, and I'll be introducing our wonderful panel here today. But just to say, um, It's been wonderful to be able to host this. So thank you Jack, for bringing this COPA to aka. And if I can just, um, before we move on to the copa, just to indulge and to say to our particularly a bit of a shout out in our mehi to our, uh, rainbow au here today. Just a thank you. Thank you for your creative contribution, uh, to the arts practice of Aotearoa. I know it's definitely more vibrant and more colourful, um, when everybody plays a part. And so to be able to give space and to have this afternoon and this kōrero, we're really delighted. So nei ra te So everyone, so my name is Ana Asha. I'm the director here at AKA Art Museum and for the last couple of months we've been honored to have Thresholding, um, a wonderful exhibition, um, by Jack Tri Love. And it's been, um, it's been wonderful seeing the visitors' response. to the work, and it's been a delight to have. Um, and so this artist panel is part of that. And so just to say thank you, Jack, for bringing this kaupapa, um, back and, um, and having, creating this moment for all of us. Um, yeah, to be in. So I'm going to hand it over. Very shortly I've got a few artist bios to read out. Incredibly impressive too. So, um, not only, yeah, it's been wonderful. So I'm just going to get back on script now before handing it over. Um, so first we have Tāwhanga Nōpera, an artist and academic whose research and art investigates marginality and is grounded Uh, by the pāharakeke, or the nurturing family structure at the heart of Māori identity. Through rāranga and traditionals, uh, and traditions of Māori weaving, Tāwhanga explores, um, explores the forms of relational knowledge within our bodies. Tāwhanga has a particular interest in the ways that individuals are impacted upon the notions of power and seeks out transformative ways, pathways, uh, from traumatic experiences. Uh, secondly, we have Louis , uh, works experimental performance and video embracing the power of body adornment to affirm that Ta t. Uh, their practice of twisting taura tikauka, uh, which is the cabbage tree fiber rope, uh, attempts to bind the sacred transgender experience and with the transformation powers of taniwha and tipua. which are the spiritual beings from Pūrākau Māori that can change gender and form. Louis believes that culture should reflect and be part of the biodiversity of the natural world. Their art is presented across Aotearoa and internationally, most Ngā Motu, New Plymouth, with the Government Brewster Art Gallery. Kia koe, nei ra te mihi, kia koe, Rui. E te mutunga, kia koe, Jack Trelov paints with tensions between embodiment and untethering, creating work to uplift states of in between ness. Uh, his exhibition, Thresholding, is currently showing here at Pātaka. Uh, Jack has been a practicing artist for over 20 years, showing nationally and internationally in artist run spaces, dealer galleries. public art galleries and museums. Alongside a full time painting practice, he undertakes a doctorate at Auckland University, theorizing painting as trans or threshold work through the Celtic traditions of Keeney. Let's have a, let's, let's warm up, warm up your hands in this way. Let's give it to him. Ana, thank you for that beautiful welcome. Yeah, stunning. Always feel very brought home here in a beautiful way, so thank you. Yeah, um, also just, uh, want to acknowledge, um, Ngati Toa Rangitira, whose whenua we're speaking on today. Um, and this beautiful, creative whare that is such a special place to be sharing and expanding some of the stories that are already woven into these walls. Um, I want to, um, acknowledge, well, that trans and gender diverse people have existed since the beginning of time, um, and so thinking back to all of the ancestors, the people that have come before us, and the people whose legacy we're walking through and carrying into the future, um, and the creativity and artistry that has been within our experiences and bodies also since the beginning of time. Um, Um, I want to acknowledge all you beautiful people who have come here today and to acknowledge all of the kind of, um, embodied knowing that you all bring about thresholds and, and transitions. Um, we hope that our conversation today will synchronize with everything that you know and grow, grow, and that we can grow each other in that way. Um, so... Yeah, I thought, um, maybe just to give a little bit of, uh, background or context, um, as to the, the thinking behind having this conversation today. Um, also just to, um, acknowledge, uh, the wonderful Val Smith, who is in the top left up here, and who would be sitting, who is sitting in some way, next to Tawhanga today. Um, and Val's amazing, um, It's a kind of choreographic, um, performance practice, and yeah, has so much amazing, um, ways to contribute to that, but they're doing it from their bed with a big bag of tissues up in Tāmaki Makaurau, yeah. Um, so... Yeah, the, the idea, um, we're talking today is about this idea of, um, transness or betweenness as a kind of dynamic methodology for making creative work. Um, it's a conversation about how our experiences of, um, surviving and thriving between gender can harbour within them unique strengths or creative superpowers. Um, Using terms like superpowers here is an attempt to kind of refocus on strength based aspects of trans experiences and creativity as a bit of an antidote to the often publicized deficits around trans experiences like mental distress and suicidality and all of that stuff which we know are explicitly the result of discrimination and social exclusion, um, and nothing to do with the Beautiful magic of being born a trans creature. Um, so... Yeah, I thought a lot about the idea of kind of hosting this panel and like pros and cons and all the rest of it. As, um, trans people, we often have complicated, uh, relationships with visibility. So invisibility and hyper visibility plague our communities simultaneously in diff in different ways. Um, trans bodies are often the subject of invasive scrutiny and public pathologizing. Um, so visibility in and of itself isn't kind of inherently. Um, visibility where we can control our narratives and take them beyond discussions which are exclusively about our bodies and access to healthcare and human rights, Um, and into the frames of creativity and spirituality and energy, um, are actually rare. So, um, and I think, like, in terms of, um, sort of trans visibility in the arts, it's often, um, sort of restricted to, like, maybe, artists that are explicitly showing images of trans people in artworks. Um, so that's what's seen, but what's not visible are many of the accomplished artists they see, you know, out here today as well. Um, from our communities, who are making work that isn't instantly recognisable in that way, but who, when we dig a little deeper, draw on aspects... These aspects of experience in extremely interesting, um, ways within their creative processes. Um, So embodied knowledge of transness can become its own type of artistic engine. Well, that's what I feel. Um, So, some of the things, you know, thinking about like what does transness mean inside painting, inside choreography, inside raranga, inside performance. Um, And creating a context to publicly share these maybe more nuanced discussions, I'm hoping that we get to widen some of the conversation around what trans and gender diverse people are bringing into the world culturally and artistically. Um, and yeah, just more expansiveness around the conversations that we're having. Um, so, one of the, you know, I've been thinking about like how do we sort of, Disrupt the kind of spectacle that can happen around transness or, um, and, and one way I thought might be nice just to begin our conversation today, um, is to, um, acknowledge, like, my feeling is that we all have embodied knowledge about transitions and about what it feels like to, to be a threshold and to pass thresholds and all of that kind of stuff. And, um, so, I'm going to read a little poem in a minute as a way of kind of framing some, maybe to just jog things, but what I'd love you all to do is just to sort of think about something, um, in your life or, in your embodied experience and your lived knowing of the world, um, that has some kind of connection to, you know, The, I guess that, those transness, those trans qualities within yourself, or, or the, the knowledge that you have about transition. So that could be like, um, having, you know, an experience of grief, grief changes us deeply, you know, falling in love, desire. Um, it could be like, really practical, like moving house. Um, or, uh, yeah, whatever, whatever your sort of way in there, um, is. Um, So just reflect on that, and then we're just gonna invite you to share with the person next to you, just for, you know, 30 seconds, what that might be. Um, while you're thinking of the thing, that little magic moment that you have, your own body wisdom about these stories, I'm just gonna read this, um, poem that I found by, um, I found out who it was, um, Heidi Priebe, who, um, it's actually a, it's, um, Anyway, I'm just going to read it, and it's about that idea that we're always kind of in shifting. So, to love someone long term is to attend a thousand funerals of the people they used to be. The people that are too exhausted to be any longer. The people they don't recognize inside themselves anymore. The people they grew out of. The people they never ended up growing into. We so badly want the people that we love to get their spark back when it burns out, to become speedily found when they are lost. But it's not our job to hold anyone accountable to the people they used to be. It's our job to travel with them between each version and to honour what emerges along the way. So sometimes it will be an even more luminescent flame. Sometimes it will be a flicker that disappears temporarily and temporarily floods the room with a perfect and necessary darkness. So just when you're ready, find your person next to you and just maybe share a little moment with each other. So, in terms of just to sort of, so you know, kind of the structure of what we're feeling like we do today is, um, the three of us are just going to talk for about ten minutes, um, about some of the, the ways that we think about our kind of making methods or, or thinking methods and, and connection to some of these ideas around, um, trans magic, transness, um, and then, uh, and then from that we're just probably going to have a bit of an organic conversation and then, you know, Um, invite any questions. Yeah. So, um, first up, we have the glorious Louis. Um, tēnā koutou katoa. Um, tēnā koutou katoa. Um, um, Ko te mihi tuatahi ki tāwhanga mo te karakia. Um, and, yeah, and thanks to Pātaka and to Jack and everybody who's made this happen and everybody for coming. Um, Ko te iwi ki Tauranga Moana. Um, ko, um, ko Louie Zalkaniel toku ingoa. Um, so I, yeah, I'm an artist. I, I, um, I live in Ōtaki now and, um, I've been... Working on my art practice over the last, I guess since I was a kid, but it's like, but recently it's, I've been learning about my whakapapa and, um, and yeah, like using body adornment and, and like the way that I, that I'm presenting my own body as a basis of my practice. And, um, so yeah, this, this artwork up here, this was, um, these are takarure, which are um, I, like, swim, I can swim with them in the water and they're made from te koka and, um, and driftwood from the beach and, um, and, yeah, that's, that's, that was like a way to, like, embody, embody these, these senses of, like, of, like, things that our tupuna might have done and, um, And, yeah, just these like deep, like deep sort of knowledges that are like still in everybody's bodies. And it's like those can come from all sorts of different places. It's like at one time in the past, everybody was like very, very deeply connected to the environment. And like we still are, but it's harder to see that sometimes. And knowing that, um, that, yeah, like, like you said, that trans people have been, have existed forever, it's like, those, yeah, that, that sort of depth, I, I really, like, find that really comforting to, to know that this isn't just a, a new thing, it's like, we've, we've always existed, and, and, um, yeah, from, in all these different sorts of ways, yeah. Um, and, um, yeah, this is another. Um, this, this was made from, from te kouka fibre again, like cabbage tree leaves and um, and also, um, it's stuffed with my, my hair as well, like, all of the hair that comes out. It's like, you could imagine there's a lot. Um, and that was, um, that was done in Otepoti and, um, we, we did this performance. It was like a, um, I guess it's kind of felt like a ritual or, or some sort of, um, Yeah, it was, like, everybody came together and we all, we all, like, experienced something together and, um, this, this moment in the performance, um, I'd been wearing that on my back and then, um, and then it got, um, yeah, we, we all held the, held the net or the strings that are, um, connected to it and it, and it, like, held itself raised above the ground and, and that felt like a really special moment, just, like, lots of people all focusing their energy on, on one thing, um, and, There was, yeah, like, I guess all of these performances, I, like, we try to make sure there's lots of queers invited along because that's, that's kind of, like, who, I guess that's, that's, in a way, that's kind of my target audience, like, the people who I want to experience that, but, um, I'm also, like, so happy when anybody, because, yeah, like, like, everybody, everybody experiences transitions of some sort and, um, There's, yeah, there's just like, there's no, there's no solid limits or boundaries to these things. We're all, we're all experiencing gender, we're all experiencing, um, well yeah, just like death and birth and, and changes in our lives. Our bodies are always changing. Um, and, so, um, a more recent performance, this was a couple of months ago, I, I, this was kind of like I wanted to scale up that idea a bit more, and so we had got this big tractor tyre, and I, um, I like drilled into it and wove, wove tīkoko ropes into it, and, um, and it was, yeah, that, that was, um, up in Ngā Motu on, um, Ōnuku Taipari back beach, um, which is, um, just, just close to New Plymouth, and, um, yeah, that was, that, this sort of like, Um, and then the next picture, um, I, I was like, really wanting to make it, because I'm not, I'm not like an actor, or I'm not trained in theatre or anything, and I feel like my performances are more like, just me experiencing something with everybody around me, and um, and so the, yeah, like I had all these restrictions, I was wearing those takarere on my feet, um, and that was restricting the way that I, um, that I was walking. I had to like crawl around and I had um, these earmuffs which were um, blocking my sense of sound and um, and I had, I had um, these made from, from kukuroaroa, they're like the horse muscle shells and, um, and I'd also been like growing my fingernails as well. So some of those, like those are my real nails as well, which was like, I think that sort of connection of like, I can like grow something from my body that is similar to something from the environment. That's a real like, and also the, the, um, the kupu Maori for, um, For, um, yeah, this kuku roaroa is the mussel shells, um, and, um, fingernails is my kuku. And so there's like, both of them have this word, kuku. So it's like, that's built, that's like built into the way that, um, that, that we can understand the world in a, in a Māori way. That it's like, we are, we are like so much embedded in the, embedded in the environment. Um, and then. Yeah, um, just to finish off the, um, like, last weekend we had this, um, wānanga up in Ōtaki, and, um, and it was based on the tīkauka, and, um, there was a lot of takatāpui invited along, and, um, and it was, yeah, and artists, and all, just, all sorts of people came along, and, um, and that was, yeah, that, that sort of space, having it, having it, Like a focused space that we were all there for a reason to learn about the tīkauka tree and learn about the rongoā that you can get from it and um, and we, we had waiata and karakia and all sorts of things that we were learning and learning how to extract the fibers from the, from the leaves and weave with them and um, That was, yeah, that's sort of like coming together. That's like another, another sort of performance. Well, it's not a performance, but it's like that, that's kind of what my performance is, what I aim to do with them as well. That it's like bringing, bringing people together to experience something together. And so that, that felt like kind of another natural version of this. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's all I'll say. I'll pass on to, like, Tafonga now. Cool. Kia ora. Kia ora e hoa. Um, just want to say I think it's quite fascinating that you weave with te kouka, and that you, um, that you have a practice deeply embedded in te kouka. I mean, I was looking at some of your mahi yesterday, just the way that you, Um, the middle is, is like profound. It's like, I mean, I know that like, you know, like Bethany Hill, like is really focused on local and some artists really, really focused on different types of media, but I never really thought about what a focus on te kouka can bring. So kia ora for that. Um, just firstly, thank you all for coming. Um, it's a real privilege to be able to talk with, um, To talk in front of people about, um, things that are really, really personal. It's scary, but it is a privilege. So thank you. Um, thank you also to, um, to Anna and Claire and Patika. Um, I've never been here before and, um, I'm really enjoying it so far. Um, and I wanna say thank you to, to also the Peter Wool Foundation. Um, when we're having a call earlier I was, I was just reading up on Peter Roll and I had a bit of a tongue. Um, it was sad to, I, I was sad to find out. Um, . Um, just aspects of his life and, um, maybe think about my own life too, just reading about him. Um, like, there's some things in life that I've always known. Um, I've always known that I'm deeply loved by my whānau. Um, that I'm Māori. And I've always known, um, that I live in a deeply contested place. And that it's important for me to be as Māori as I can. And that's how I was raised. And so those are, that's the foundation that... that I have about myself and my identity that I don't think a lot of other people have. Um, to be really, really grounded as a Aotearoa, in your papakainga, where you've never ceded sovereignty, and where you still own the land, and where your kids still walk around barefoot and half naked in the middle of the afternoon, evening, doesn't matter if it's the middle of winter or whatever. Um, and it's a real privilege. Um, so, um, yeah, I just want to say thank you with that privilege. Um, and... Yeah, um, like, just picking up off Louie's kōrero, like, my, um, my works deeply, like rāranga is the core of my practice, and it doesn't look like rāranga, and the things that I do don't look like rāranga, but I know they are rāranga. And when I learn to weave, like there's this thing that happens when you're a weaver, um, when you're weaving where you just go, it's hard to describe, it's like, and it's this moment when you're like, My body knows something really different. And it's going, uh! When I'm trying to do something, I'm trying to weave something, my body's going, uh! And it's like, stop! And you try, and you try and like, push past that, but actually your body knows way, way more than you do. And so that, uh, becomes a like, okay, I actually just have to step back, and I have to stop, and I have to go really slow, and let what my body knows come to the forefront. And um, I just wanted to say thank you for starting off the way that you did, because, um, And what that did is it gave us all an opportunity to, um, think about those moments in our lives when our bodies go, uh, and it feels like a weird thing, but it's actually really, really powerful thing. And, um, over the past three years, definitely, um, through the pandemic, um, my whole life has been one big, uh, and I've gone far out. This has never happened before. And, and I've got some ways to work through it that other people don't. Because my whole life has been like, oh, oh, this is, oh, this is, oh, I can't, oh, oh, oh, I'm going to die. Um, but with the pandemic it was like, oh, I'm going to die. But actually at the same time it was like, yes. But I've got some privilege that I didn't have before. Like, I've got a job. I work at a university. It's the first real job I've ever had. Even though, like, I'm 46 now, so what? I've had that job for three years. So, got my first real job when I was 43. Um. And it says, I'm a doctor. So it's like a real, real job. So it's like from no job, like from a job as an artist, like, Oh, you're just an artist. So you've got no job. So I'm a doctor now. I'm in a university. And, um, and things were so full on through the pandemic. Like people would send constant emails, Tāwhanga can you, Tāwhanga can you support with this, Tāwhanga can you, and it was like, I can't even open my computer anymore. Like that's how full on that anxiety is. So no, I, I'm, I can't. And, and turn my phone off because I can't answer those either. And like I live in the pa and I won't have conversations with anyone else except my whānau. Because it's way too full on. And, and I didn't realise actually that my whole life has been like that. And that through the pandemic, the rest of the world slowed down enough to enable me to use the language that has been coming to the forefront. And like I must say. I'm so proud of Rangatahi in this country today. It's incredible the kinds of things that our young people talk about, and the language they use, and things they do. That's so healing, and um, so during the pandemic, I was like, right, I'm surrounded by all this language that's never really been used before, I've got a shitload of privilege, and I'm gonna use it. And so over the past few years, it really just slowed the world down, in order to get to a space where I feel like, Um, this isn't the end of my life, where it's like, this uh, is something that I can work through, because I know I can work through it. I've been doing it through my whole practice. I can always get those uh moments, but this time I want to get past this uh moment, because I think there's some really, really, um, important learning for everyone that can be done during this time, because we've all had to slow down. And I was talking with my peers, like, yesterday evening, and I started to think, you know, actually, like, because I'm always described as a problem, like, this work was really problematic when I went to exhibit it at the City Gallery. Um, the curator was down with it, but, um, the directors were like, that's really tongue in cheek. I don't know that you can exhibit that. And, um, for me that wasn't, that wasn't like a full on moment. That was like, that's rape survival. That's like me and Sanfran in drag, um, the night after surviving rape. And, um, like my drink was spiked, and I didn't, like I'd just finished writing my master's thesis. I was in a real good mood. I hardly drank anything. After being in a club for a second, all of a sudden, like, I'm not in a club anymore. I'm waking up in a hospital, and I don't know where I am. And, um, you know, for me, like, there's really, really no place like home. Like, you know, I was in the States then, and, um, I had to go through a bit of ceremony, but my flight was the next day, and it was like, I'm so close to home, and yet this horrible thing's happened, but it's okay. Because really, there's no place like home. And actually, it was like, yeah, there really is no place like this body. Um, because even though like, the people who are hosting me and the circumstance of like, I mean I don't kind of remember things because my drink had been spiked so there were lots of gaps and I knew that something traumatic had happened and I was a bit confused but at the same time it was like, no it's alright, you're going home, you're with people who are safe and then when you get home like you know you'll be alright so it's okay and so it was like well there really is no place like home because in this, in this, In this, like, body that's between these poles of gender in our society, there is this thing that always happens where I'm able to, like, balance my emotions, think through a problem, and always get to the solution. And the solution is to always stay alive. And, um, and that's a really, really powerful thing. But actually, I wonder why, I wonder if that's like, like, that's my norm, to be able to do that. But why isn't everybody's norm? Like, we live in a really dangerous and problematic world. And so why is it that only some people, like only a few people it seems like, have an ability to live more than half a life? Like, why is it that some people have the ability to shift between a masculine and feminine space, to always live in a solutions focused mode? Like, my life, um, from the lens of other people is a big problem. And it always has been, especially like, being a young Māori person living in the 70s and 80s in Christchurch. Between Christchurch and Lordstown. Like I was a big problem for people and I wasn't. I was just a little boy. Because I was just a happy little kid, but I was a big fucking problem for a lot of people. And I'd hear about it all the time, like, from a really young age, I'd hear, What are you doing? What are you doing? We're watching you. And it was like, oh, I'm just a little boy. And I started to think, well, like, as I've gotten older, and I've assumed this privilege, and, um, and I'm in a space where I've got a lot of power to kind of slow things down. What I've started to think is like, actually, like, I'm really, really well. Like, I had a conversation with my mother the other day and she's like, You know, you haven't fixed your car and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Mum, I'm real happy. Like, I don't need to fix my car. I can afford to fix my car. But, um, but, things in my life are good. So, so the problems that you see about my life... They're not actually my problems, they're your problems. Like, I'm in a good space, I'm real happy. And so that work is like, um, I made it in 2010, but it really is, it's about like, knowing how to find wellness in a space that is a big problem for other people, but that's actually home to me. Um, jump forward like, a good decade. Um, so, or even more than a decade. This is like from 2016 17. And so this is like a piece of work from my PhD project. Um, and it's kind of like bringing that problem, like, to the, to the broader space of like the cultural context. Like, that's definitely not, that's not just about being takatāpui and trans. That's actually about being Māori and Pākehā and a souvenir. So you might not recognise that, but that's a pōkāpa Um, and normally on top of that, there's a bust of Queen Victoria. And it's one of two carved wooden busts that exist, that were ever created. Um, and, and that's, that's kind of my backyard. That's just in my village, at home, and I walk past that like at least five times a day. And other people say it's this really sacred space, and it's just my backyard. It's my home. Again, it's just my home. Um, and then I'll get you to fit to that last image please, Louis. Um, and then jump forward to like this year. And that's just really, that's just me, actually. That's just me with no other thing than, like, that work, there's no place like homo. Like, that's the space I was thinking about when I was in San Fran experiencing trauma. It was like, I just need to go to Tarawera. I just need to go jump in the moana, and have a kani kani, and things are alright. That's like the newest performance that I've created. And it's a real simple performance. I just put on my headphones, walk into a space where there are people, and I just start to dance. Like I've never danced before. And like, I sing too. And like, when I first started rehearsing that performance, which was about the time I started my PhD in 2012, like, I did. I looked like a crazy person on the street. Like every other crazy person that's singing and dancing and just like, oh yeah, here you go, here's two dollars. Um, but I've rehearsed, practiced it so much, like I've danced around Hippie so much on the street that now it looks real professional, like now you, I can see people go, oh, ah. Because it's like, oh, well it seems like what I'm used to seeing is this kind of weird unwell thing. But they do it real well and they look real good. Um, ah, and that dance, yeah, dance along too, and it's interesting when people start dancing along with you and you know you're the only one that can hear the music. So for me, um, like even though those three works are quite different from each other, they're about a journey of, of being, being a trans body, and um, and having the power to say, I'm not the problem, I'm the solution. Yeah, and that's where that work is. Um, that, that work's about a solution. Because I've always kind of lived in a space of like, Okay, well it's depressing, it's hard, it's hard, but yeah, find the solution. And now I'm in the exact opposite space where like, everything is, um, is a solution. And actually all the problems are just exciting data to like manage and manipulate and figure through. And um, and I realised that it was really important to get to a place where you could just be full of hope because what I realised my life was, was... It's always going to be a fight. It's always going to be a fight. Like, it's okay, like, I'm tough now, but it's always going to be hard. It's always going to be tough. It's always going to be a struggle. And I don't want to live my life like that, because that's actually, that's suicidal ideation. That's hopelessness. And, um, and just to bring it back to Peter Ruhl, you know, like, um, like that's how his life ended. Um, and I don't want my life to end like that. And, like, I've, I've, I've lost, I've lost children to suicide. And, um, And so yeah, now my whole life is in that space of, I'm the solution, like, I stand at that threshold now. Kia ora. Kia ora. So, I just want to start and straight in with, um, this beautiful, you know, this idea of survival and um, I've been working a lot with, um, mangroves lately. So I'm a painter, um, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute, how I kind of think of paint as this kind of threshold language. But, um, one of the, I, I realized, you know, we kind of have this, you know, we all have these embodied, like, instincts around how we make. And I think so much for me, I don't sort of, I try to make not very much with my head, like much more like hands first, body first, you know, like, um, and so. It's only been in retrospect that I've realised, like, maybe for like the last, like, ten years, all the shows that I've done have always, they've always kind of anchored around these, um, these, like, trying to understand these other kind of liminal bodies or between bodies. Um, and so, um, for example, so that I, um, I did a, a show called Mangrove, which was, which I'm going to talk about in a minute, and then I did one, um, called Keening, which is the Celtic traditions of calling between worlds when someone's passed over. Um, and the, so the Keener is this, um, uh, sort of like, I guess, an, uh, a body expert who, um, who can wail and grieve in a way which allows the living to release the kind of wildness of grief. In order that the world can kind of reshape enough to be lived in again. Um, so the, you know, shapeshifters, that's that kind of work. And I think of paintings being these, the bodies we make in paintings or in performance or in any kind of artwork being bodies that are those kind of, um, those bodies that can facilitate us having some kind of, um, shifting experience. Um, and, and so the. Yeah, and then recently in the exhibition I've got just, um, next door is, is based around the, the liminal bodies of, like, dusk and dawn. So I was kind of thinking if time, if time was trans, if the light was trans, um, where are they? Who are they? And, uh, the dusk, the dawn, um, I think that's one of the kind of, um, I love that sort of when you're talking about reflipping the, you know, just reframing. Um, the stuff that's supposedly problematic, like for me, I think I, there was a long time of trying to look and find, you know, in history, like where, where were the trans artists, where were the artists that work in the way that's going to make sense to me, um, where are the, even just, you know, like, where were the people? And um, and because we've been, you know, like actively edited out of, of histories, um, for me, that ended up being a beautiful creative. thing, because I was like, cool, okay, I've got to find these bodies, um, because I learn body to body. So where are they? And that's when I found the mangroves, um, who, uh, these, um, how do we, oh yeah, I'll just, so, um, we, we live up in the Kaipara, um, my ETUs, Sissy and Simmy, our old neighbours. Is, uh, area where it's, yeah, there's, we're surrounded by mangroves and, um, tidal estuaries and it's muddy and it's murky and, and, um, I was trying to find, again, I was trying to look through kind of written literature to find, you know, I was trying to be a researcher and, um, and I was really having a lot of trouble and then I was like, oh, look at you who I'm reading every day, like reading your marks, your language, your temperature, your, and I realized, oh, that's, so that's, At the moment, they're my kind of teachers, or that's the, like, the, the trans kinships that I've found that can teach me how to make paintings. And, um, and so for, with them, they are, um, actually, I'll just, just in terms of, like, trying to be, do a, have a practical minute. Um, so, yeah, I used to make paintings which were kind of like this, like, completely covered in really thick impasto paint. And then after spending all this time with these mangroves, Um, whose language is like this, like it's like that kind of pallet and mud and um, so I started working with raw linen and um, and see these beautiful things here. So all of these, um, new metaphors that are sticking up out of the ground are literally straws for breathing. So they're marks looking for oxygen. And as a painter, that is just the most exciting concept, like marks that are looking for oxygen. That's literally how you build a painting until you, somebody's breathing with you, you know? Um, so, I've just got images here of a painting that's kind of coming into being to try and show you like, you know, you just follow those same marks on that muddy surface and make those mangrove y marks, and then each time the tide comes in and out, it leaves another layer of silt. And so, then here it is, like another wash over of that sort of silt. And then the last layer is kind of, it's all kind of clumped in. But there's, um, there's these, and for me these are very muddy, dirty paintings. Not like, I think I used to be quite fluorescent. And it's like, yeah, me being quite mellow and mangroovy. Um, and, but um, they, the, yeah, one of the beautiful things also about those mangroves are they have these little seed pods. And they drop them, and, well, when they release their little seed pods, like with most seeds, they fall on the ground, and if they grow, they grow, if they don't grow, they just die or whatever. Um, but, I didn't think I mentioned first though that the mangroves are so special to me because they are threshold beings, they live between water and the shore, you know, trees aren't supposed to live in the land, uh, they're supposed to live in the land, but these ones live in the ocean. And um, And they survive there and their bodies form these kind of storm breaks, which is like that, um, you know, having myself felt the experience of being like a storm break in gender, it's like a very, yeah, it's like, I can, it's beautiful to find these beings, these creatures. Um, but their seed pods, I keep wanting to come back to this story, they, they drop them and what happens is basically they float around. They don't rot. They don't, like, do anything. They can float for, like, years and years until they're in a place that they know that they have a chance of survival. And that's when they let go. And I just sort of think, you know, so much, you know, working with, um, trans and gender diverse young people and queer people. You know, that's part of the, you know, survival strategies of, like, how we work out how to manage that, you know. Um, and... Yeah, I think I'll, I think I'll, I'm trying to pause it up. Yeah, there's, there's like metaphors of like how, how we relate to the world around us. It's like we are, yeah, it's like we, we can like experience those as well. Like you can go and like touch a mangrove and like, like feel how another being experiences that as well. It's like, yeah, like you, it's not just a comparison. It's like you can, you can connect with that, which I, I find that really special too. Like, as a species, like, socially we binarize, but the rest of the species around us aren't. And like, our whole existence is in this space that is really, that is a really trans spatial threshold. Like, everywhere around us, um, offers us, like, real fluid ways of engaging with the world. And, and, and so what is it about us that, um, That makes us force ourselves into these really rigid spaces of being. And, um, and what do we need to do, with each other, or for each other, to enable us to be whole people? Because like, um, what I've realised in my life is like, far out, finally I feel really good! And it shouldn't have taken 46 years to get there, or nearly 47. Like, um, like, How, how come that couldn't happen earlier? And like, with my mokos now, especially, it's like, okay, their lives are going to be like this, and I'm going to make sure I use this kind of language, and I'm going to be like this, my energy's going to be like this all the time, and I'm around them, and I'm going to, and like, so, you know, with the young people I'm around, I'm really, really intentional about what I need to do. To make sure that their bodies feel safe in order to just be, you know, and, um, and then it makes me go, well, actually what I need to do for my mum then, you know, what I need to do for my mum, like, she's real 70 ways and she gets real grumpy all the time at me, and, um, and my sisters. And my brother too, but our lives are really, really good, but she still gets grumpy about stuff that's irked her since, like, we were babies. And like, what do I need to do for her to help her feel loved enough, to be safe enough, to just let go of that kind of stuff, you know? Because she is in a really safe space, um, but she doesn't feel it. And so yeah, that's one concern I have, like, a lot. Well, what do I need to do as a trans person to, to share this knowledge so that the people around me feel as... Feel as empowered as I do. Yeah. But, like, nature, like, gives us all the answers all the time. Yeah. But I feel like artwork, too. Like, I feel like that's, for me, seeing both of your art practices is like that. I'm kind of like, yes! See? Proof! Proof of thing! You know? And it's just like, it's like that thing of, I think it's, you know, it, you know, a sort of trans language is everywhere, you know, and it's so rich and it's so exciting and it's so metaphoric and beautiful. Beautiful. And... It feels sometimes like we pretend it isn't there, you know, so it's not like, so I think, yeah, when the two of you have made artworks that I've seen and read about, I've just felt like, ah, yeah, it's, it's like, um, it illuminates what's already there, you know, so it's like, which I think is part of that really powerful thing about, um, stopping the story that this is some kind of art. New contemporary nonsense, you know, it's like no no the ancientness of that shape shifting is a really fucking sacred thing Yeah, and a really exciting thing and it's a thing that You know, I mean every maker works, you know, like that's the it's the it's the material that we make with, you know It's like that's how anyone makes art or makes stories or makes I can cooking, you know, like it's these Like, I've heard you speak before about that idea of kind of, um, weaving, like drawing threads that are in different places together, is literally the act of making, you know? So it's like that kind of, um, yeah. Um, at what point, and also how, were you able to, like, experience your transness as something to survive, versus something that's thriving, and something that's really positively like the superpower that it's in? So it's like a really huge shift in thinking, which is really cool. But it's like, definitely a transitional step that I feel like a lot of people need to take. I used Purako. Like, um, I was really intentional about it. I was like, well... Okay, Maui went into a feminine space and he died, apparently. But what if he didn't die? Like, what if he just transformed? Like, I go into, I'm a masculine body in a feminine space? Of creativity? Like, that's the worm, right? And so what's my life like? Well, well, if I'm Maui, like, okay, what are those narratives? And I started just to look through Maui narratives and go, Oh, yeah, it's like being adopted. Oh, I was adopted. Oh, yeah, okay. And then, like, through, like, because, like, across the world, all of these meta narratives, um, They, they map out some really basic human traits and behaviours. And so, like, I'm a big fan of the Marvel Universe. Because they're just ordinary people and they become superheroes. Especially like, the new, the new offshoots like, here you got a young Muslim Indian like, and she's like, a superpower. And like, you know, these kids from the hood and, and I'm like, well, Marley kids, you know? Kids in New Zealand. We're all pretty fantastic. We do special things like run around barefoot all the time. In the middle of winter, shorts, t shirts, you know, that's pretty superior. And so what I do is I, I, I, like, in my life, I, I re narrate all the time exactly what's going on. Like, I'll stand in front of the mirror and, and especially if I get a negative thought about myself, it's like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't you talk to yourself like that. The rest of the world will talk to you about like that, but don't you talk negative to yourself. Like, this is who you are, you're a powerful, you're a superhero, and today you're going to conquer this. And I talk to myself like that all the time, and it might seem like a fantasy or a lie, but, you know, like, I'm a great believer in fake it till you make it. And like, my life has proven to me that if you practice something hard, like, if you just practice little bits of things, like, it just starts to assemble in yourself. And like, belief, you know, your truth, what is true, is just what you think more often. You know, and so if you change your thoughts, you can change the way you be, and you can change the world around you. It didn't seem that it should be that easy, but really it is, because, like... As people, we have so much power, and as trans people, we're actively creating who we are. Like other people, they've got jobs, or they've got relationships that they can use to help frame who they are. But as a trans person, you actively go, I want to look like this. I want to be like this. I want to speak like this. I want to say these kinds of things. I want to dress like this. I'm in control. And like, other people don't have that kind of control over their lives. And so it's, even though it feels really confused and fraught with, If you're able to find, like, ways to, um, to talk yourself up, it's not a bad thing. Like, in Te Arawa, you do it all the time. People don't like Te Arawa. They're like, Arawa suck themselves. But it's, but what I love about being in Te Arawa and being from Te Arawa is that everyone's like, I'm the best in the world. And my cousin Enya, Enya, like, I'm the best, oh, I'm the best in the world. It's like, yes, you really are. It's not a lie. It's absolutely not a lie. It's not a lie. It is. And, like, people in my community, have gotten so good at talking about themselves in a good way, that now it's the truth. And that can be the same for all of us, and I don't see why it shouldn't be. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and like, the ability to be able to be in this space of, of being trans and also being an artist as well, it's like, there's all these people who are, who have like, fought so hard to be able to do these things, and like, I feel like, for me, I'm in a, in a privileged space with this in some ways that I haven't, Like, I guess, I guess there's like the suppressing of things when I was younger, but then it's, but then like, moving into this, into what I am now, I feel like I haven't, there hasn't been a whole lot of resistance, and that's, that's like, so thanks to all of the, the queers and the tupuna and the artists who've already done all of this and, and really, yeah, there's. Yeah, people in this room as well, who have, who have like, made that possible, and yeah, but there's still a long way to, a long way to go to make sure everyone can do that easily, because it should be, it should be easy, it should just come naturally to everyone to be able to be whoever they need to be. I used to feel a lot of doubt, um, that the future would be bright, but actually now it's just like, oh my god, it's happening, it's really, really happening, like people are transforming and people are being happy, and people are doing powerful things and it's, um, And yeah, maybe it's just a lie I'm telling to myself, but for us it's a good lie. Yeah, that's the truth. Yeah, I think it's, um, it's that, the other thing that makes me think about is like, you know, um, climates, or like the idea of kind of temperature or whatever. So, um, I remember in the past working around kind of, um, you know, LGBTQIA um, Young people, you know, communities with young people around, like, stuff in schools, how and what would happen is like when there's, um, discrimination or homophobia, transphobia, whatever, and a young person's getting a, you know, having a hostile shit time, um, the reaction would be like, oh, send that kid to a school counsellor, you know, and it's like, hmm, no, the climate is the problem, not that person, not that child, you know, so it's like, and I feel like there's Big, beautiful shifts happening to it, thanks to a lot of work of people in this room, um, Um, and further, uh, you know, around Aotearoa, but to, to really kind of flip that idea of like, um, The, the point is to look at the systemic or the structural stuff, so the, the climate is the kind of climate that Whoever it comes into is just gonna flourish, and it's not a flippin conversation, you know? And I think, um, in terms of like, The, um, you know, the question that you had before about, it, it made me think, I feel like the work that needs to happen in the world is that, um, all of us, um, and people who, who aren't trans or don't have that kind of connection, um, begin to kind of trust and appreciate and, and become more conscious of the qualities of transness, of in betweenness, of thresholds, of, you know, like, the more that that becomes a, um, I think the way that those qualities and moments get kind of treated in, like, wider society, but, you know, predominantly Pākehā culture, is like a blunt, um, you know, like, we try and, Quickly get over those changing moments, or like, a quick ritual if we have to get it, but to the next, you know, instead of like, loitering in there, or be learning in there, or like, what is this amazing space, you know? So I feel like, um, in terms of like, allyship, or how I imagine that, you know, what I imagine changing that climate, is that transness is something that is, um, You know, I feel like artists in general, like, because that's all how we make, it's already at the centre of so much kind of process, but I feel like one of the things that is gonna make it a lot easier, or you know, I just feel like if, if in general we're kind of leaning into the richness of that more, that is in itself gonna like change a climate of um, you know, like that thing of like whatever we embrace in ourselves helps shift the temperature In fact, shall we do our little closing? I feel like we've got a little idea for this, how to kind of embed, like, you know, we took a lot of, actually, I'm going to bring in here, um, you know, the brilliant Val Smith, a lot of their practice is around, um, semantics. So, like, body, um, knowing through the body, um, and listening through the body, um, rather than, like, um, cerebrally or whatever. Um, And so, we were thinking it might be nice for us all to complete this session today by kind of again going back through our memories into our bodies and bones and, and trying to connect to a time where, um, something you can remember in your own lived experience about, um, when transness felt hopeful. You know, or when a threshold felt hopeful, um, and I was just wondering if we could all just kind of like, just tune into that and see if we can like hear it, hear that vibration come up in the room, you know, um, and you don't need to share it if you don't, yeah, just to sit with it and see if you can feel it. Yeah. So we're just going to take like a minute now, a minute silence to. Okay. And you're allowed to come back out from your in a sacred transgender space. I just wanted to kind of, um, bookmark the end of this with a, um, a poem. It's, it's a, it's called For Belonging. It's a Irish sing by, um, a poet called John o Donahue. Um, May you listen to your longing to be free. May the frames of your belonging be generous enough for your dreams. May you arise each day with a voice of blessing whispering in your heart. May you find a harmony between your soul and your life. May the sanctuary of your soul never become haunted. May you know the eternal longing that lives at the heart of time. May there be kindness in your gaze when you look within. May you never place walls between the light and yourself. May you allow the wild beauty of the invisible world to gather you, mind you, and embrace you in belonging. He karakia e whakamutunga. Tūtawa mai runga, tūtawa mai raro, tūtawa mai waho, tūtawa mai i raro. Kia tauai te mauri tū, te mauri ora ki te katoa. Haumi e, hui e, tāui ki e. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. 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The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/trans_ways_of_making.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093076. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.