The title of this recording is "Tony Smith profile". It is described as: Tony Smith talks about being married with children and then coming out in his 50s. It was recorded in Napier, Hawkes Bay on the 5th October 2013. Tony Smith is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 46 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Tony talks about being married with children and then coming out in his 50s. The content in the recording covers the decades 1960s through to the 2000s. A brief summary of the recording is: The podcast "Tony Smith profile" features Tony Smith discussing their life experiences touching upon themes of family, sexuality, and self-discovery. Tony grew up in a conservative, traditional family environment in the Hutt Valley near Wellington, with two younger siblings. Their childhood in the 1950s was marked by outdoor play and a strong division of labor in their family, where the mother handled domestic tasks and the father was the breadwinner. Tony did not have any awareness of homosexuality during their childhood or even in their secondary school years, with the concept of being gay seemingly nonexistent in their community. It wasn't until their fifties, while married with children and experiencing isolation within the marriage, that they began to explore their sexuality. An epiphany came to Tony during a business conference in Auckland. Curious about what it would be like to have sex with another man, Tony responded to a personal ad, leading to a momentous experience that put their marriage at risk. As their desire and liaisons with other men grew stronger, they eventually came to the realization that they had to confront their identity and come out as gay - a process that began with their spouse and extended to other family members and friends. The process of coming out, despite its emotional difficulty, was met with considerable understanding and acceptance, with Tony describing the reactions of their family and close friends. For instance, their children responded positively to the revelation, and over time, even their ex-wife and current partner have formed an amicable relationship. Throughout the conversation, Tony reflects on how their sexuality is just one facet of their life, not wanting to be defined or labeled solely on the basis of being gay. They have a multifaceted identity that includes roles as a grandparent, an art and design teacher, a traveler, and an active member of their local community. Despite what could be perceived as a late recognition of their sexuality, Tony maintains an optimistic and proactive stance on life. They do not perceive a significant difference in aging as a gay person compared to non-gay individuals, asserting that age is not a barrier to exploring new pursuits and experiences. Instead, Tony emphasizes the pursuit of personal fulfillment and new challenges, regardless of one's stage in life and sexual orientation. Tony's narrative is one of gradual self-realization, personal acceptance, and the continuous search for happiness and authenticity. Their story is situated in the broader context of societal norms and changes pertaining to sexuality and family life within Aotearoa New Zealand. The interview concludes with Tony contemplating the richness of their present life in Napier, expressing satisfaction with an array of interests ranging from the visual arts to participation in local theatrical productions, alongside their family engagements. The full transcription of the recording begins:  Uh, my name is Tony, and, uh, I am in my very late fifties, I grew up in the Hutt Valley near Wellington. Um, fairly standard childhood. I would think I had two parents. Her father was a civil servant. Mother worked part time. Uh, I have two younger sisters, and, um, I think our lives were very typical of the time. Um, this was largely before television. So much of our early childhood involved around, uh, playing up in the western hills where we lived in the bush in the streams. Um, I think we probably had quite a lot of freedom, actually, Um, safety wasn't really an issue. We used to go off through Bush tracks and so on. So I think we had a very good childhood and a very privileged childhood in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. Can you describe your family? Um, I would think my family would be very typical of of, uh, a family at the time. My father, uh, worked full time, and when he came home, he did what he wished to do. The hobbies and things that he had. My mother worked part time. Um, so there was quite a strong and traditional division of Labour. I would think, um, Mum did all the housework and the child rearing, and my father brought home the money. So, uh, we did a lot of things as a family. Uh, but things like, um, coming to school events to interviews to to scout groups and things like that. Um, whenever meetings were on, that was my mother's role. I guess so. They were very traditional roles, I would think. Compared with now, can you describe the time in terms of, you know, Was it liberal? Was it conservative? Was it traditional? Well, when you're living it, you don't know because you've got nothing else to compare it with. Um, looking back, it would be, uh, traditional and, uh, the last part. I think of conservatism following on from the war when I was born. You know, the war had only ended eight years earlier. Um, I understand there was still actually rationing for some things when I was born. Um, looking back on it, it was conservative family roles. The way that people lived and the things you did. We all went to Sunday school, for example, those sorts of things that one did, But at the time, it was a good childhood. And those were the Those were the mores and the norms that we grew up with as a child. Did you have any idea about kind of homosexuality? No, not at all. Um, I don't think as a concept homosexuality or gayness existed even when I was at secondary school. Um, I don't recall ever there were being conversations whatsoever. Um, the biggest warning were about maybe dirty old men who lure Children into cars. Um, but beyond that, no. So that didn't exist. Gayness. I don't think existed as a concept. And what about as a concept for yourself? When did gayness kind of come across your radar? Uh, not until I was probably in my fifties. Uh, no, it didn't exist as a concept. Not at all. No. So therefore, I went through, um, secondary school with no hassles or anything like that, uh, into teachers college, Uh, became a teacher, travelled overseas and so on. Married had Children. I have grandchildren. Um, so that didn't exist as a concept? No, not at all. So what happened in the fifties in your fifties? Um uh, I became increasingly um, isolated, Lonely in my marriage. Um, and, uh, being lonely in a marriage is very self-destructing. And, uh, I was doing more and more things on my own. Um, I was at a business conference in Auckland, and I thought, I wonder what it's like to have sex with a man, Have never having had sex with a man at all. And, um, had a look in in the, you know, the personal column in the paper. And there were several there, and I took a gamble and phoned up, and that was an extraordinary sensation. That was really quite amazing. And, um, from there I am now an out gay man. So can you try and explain to me how do you go from having had no kind of thought about kind of homosexuality to saying I want to have sex with a man? How How does that work? Um, I'm not certain that I can. I I'm not certain that I can explain it. Really. Um, what I did know was that the second time that I had sex with a man I knew then that my marriage was in danger. Uh, this was something, uh, strong It was powerful. It was lustful. It was something that I had never experienced before. And it just was mind boggling. Um um and I knew. Yeah, I knew then that my marriage was in danger and I continued for another two years, in essence, having affairs and so on. With men behind my wife's back, they family never suspected anything at all For about two years until literally I came out as a as a gay man and said that this had gone on. Can you describe for me what the feeling was like, um, after that first experience? Yeah, Uh, just extraordinary. Just amazing. Like nothing I had ever experienced before. Um uh, the the if you're talking about straight sex, it was strong. It was lustful. It was It was, um it was incredible. Just amazing. And then when this this gentleman left, I thought, Wow, this is something that I had never experienced, nor had any anticipation of that it would end up like this again. Um um, it was incredible. Um, what was most amazing is actually not just meeting the man and and having the sex with the man was the absolute heightened sense of anticipation beforehand of knowing that this person was going to arrive in an hour's time or something, and and of showering and of putting on the clean clothes and things like that. That was just amazing. That was just incredible. Right down to literally, when the knock on the door came, that was that was that heightened sense of excitement, of anticipation was incredible. Just wonderful. Yes, After that first experience, how did it change your identity? Did it make you question who you were? No, Uh, II, I think. I think to me we are all a sum of a whole number of components and, uh, of one of those only as sexuality. And I'm always reluctant to to, uh, to pigeonhole people according to their sexuality. I don't pigeon hole friends because, um, they're Anglican or Presbyterian, and I think we are all a sum of a whole lot of pieces that make us who we are. And so to me, when one changes and I'm using that word hesitantly one sexuality, um, you are still the same person. In essence, maybe you are adding to who you are. As we go through life. We have experiences that add on to make you more of who you are. And it could well be that by coming out as a gay man, I came closer to whom I I really am than I was before. So do you believe that we are whole and it's basically a discovery. So you were always gay. There was always a part of you that was gay, but it's just II. I would have to say yes, that's probably right if you're doing if you're reading, that's probably the case. But certainly I wasn't aware of it. And, um, other men that I've met in a similar age of a similar age who maybe have been married as well. Um, most of those, in fact, all of those knew that they were gay men or suppressed very much. So. I have friends who also have Children. They knew when they married that they were gay men, but they played, uh, a A facade, a show of, of, of being normal and inverted commas it to put on this front. Um, I certainly didn't marry knowing that or or having family. I didn't know that. So my discovery was much, much later than for most people. You mentioned coming out? Yes. What? What did that mean for you? Uh, it meant facing the music. At some point, you've got to say you have to tell people that this is who you are that this has gone on. So the first person I told was my wife, um, she was amazing. Her reaction was one of of confusion. I guess would be a word that I would use that this was the person that she loved, that we'd been married for 27 years now, saying that that something had changed. Uh, I felt tremendous guilt, tremendous guilt, um, about cheating behind her back and about the fact that, in essence, that their marriage had ended. Um uh, and And my wife went through the stages that people do. Perhaps when there is a loss. And she was losing her, her husband and her partner, the father of her Children and her security. I'd had two years to think of where I was up to that point and and and suddenly my wife then was having to come on board and to catch up. And it's a credit to her that she has been able to do that. So there was a loss, uh, on on her part and anger, uh, for a short period, Um uh And then And then that passed. I went through that weekend when I had told my wife I went through to see my elderly parents who lived beyond this area and told them everything. Uh, and that was absolutely fine. I was reading that, you know, the catastrophizing all the way through to telling them. But actually, it wasn't an issue in the end. Um, and neither was it. When in fact, I told my Children nor my friends as well that simply was a was a non issue. I was very fortunate. The people around me, I'm very blessed, actually. Yeah. Can you talk a wee bit more about that whole process of having to front up to people and say this is this is fine, because, I mean, if it if it's never been in your kind of past in the last 40 50 years, how do you even start those conversations? Um, I think there's not much point rehearsing them, because if you rehearse them and rehearse them, it never sounds right. Anyway, literally I think you just blurt out when I told my wife, um, I came home from work one Friday and, um and she was already home and she said, How was your day? And I burst into tears and told her everything. I knew that at some point I was going to tell her, but I certainly hadn't planned to do it that day. So actually, the spontaneity of it was quite cathartic. From that point of view, once, once the process had started, then you had to keep going. I had spoken to some, uh, to some other gay men who said that they their their recommendation was to keep it a secret from from people and from their families. Um, but I thought for me, I wasn't prepared to do that because what I'm doing then is I'm I'm taking them. I'm taking them for a ride that they don't deserve. So, um, I, uh I told my Children and that was very interesting. My eldest daughter was in her early twenties and, uh, at university, and, um her reaction was one of love, and she didn't care. And she always suspected that I was a gay man. which was most interesting. Um, my second daughter, who's a bit left field, was excited. She was delighted to have a gay father because other people just had boring fathers who mow lawns and watch rugby and drink beer. And she had a gay father and she was doing a creative arts course. And she couldn't wait to get back to the course on Monday to tell everybody else, because that gave her quite a bit of kudos. Actually, my son was 18, and he's perhaps the one that concerned me the most, uh, being AAA young, a young man himself, and he couldn't give a shit. He didn't really give us stuff at all. They just got on with it. I'm still their father. They the I'm the person they love. Uh, we have all have respect for one another, and it actually didn't change. You know, it didn't. And that's been it's been like that with all our friends. When when we told all our friends, um, you're not dumped by them. You're not ostracised by them. I was really amazed by that, because what you hear is that basically, you're sort of one step above or below a leper. And it wasn't like that at all. Even people that I work with, I was dreading telling people at work. Uh, but in the end, it's easier just to tell everybody. Um, because if you start keeping secrets, people will find out somehow or other, Um, and nothing changed. You know, the world doesn't close and the hell doesn't freeze. Or, um, um over you're still the same person as you were. And if you have, If people have respect for you and you have respect for them, then the life just continues. It's like to me, it's no different from an author from somebody discovering a new author, and they go telling everybody about that it doesn't so what, You know, just just get on with it. So, uh, so the coming out process and I'm a bit cynical of that term. Uh, for me, it was very straightforward and and no negative backlash at all. There were only with only one exception. Uh, everybody just carries on. No, as as it always has done, and that coming up process happened while you were living in in Napier? Yes. Yes, yes. Do you think living in a smaller centre as opposed to, say Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch. I mean, is that does that help or hinder? Because, I mean, I wouldn't have thought it would have made any difference. When you are a family, a family with Children or a person where you live, the family and the friends and the colleagues and the work people around you are still the same. I could be in the middle of London where there's 19 million people and you still have the same 20 or 30 people who surround you. I don't actually think that makes any difference. I don't know because I can. Only I can only voice my experience. From my point of view, living in in in a in a smaller city in New Zealand was not a disadvantage at all. My my friends are here. My family is here, so it wasn't a disadvantage at all. The only issue potentially was when I was exploring this was trying to find someone to talk to, to find out what was going on. There's no counselling service here. As far as I am aware, there was no groups here, so I I had no chance to meet or to talk to another gay man. It took a wee bit of doing. And in fact, I spoke to someone, uh, in Wellington, uh, through a help line just to talk to them. And I found that really helpful. I wish perhaps I'd had access to that. Um, but in the end, that that wasn't an option. So what? What kind of language would you use to describe yourself? Um, the language you can use really probably is what other people tell you, isn't it? And there could be a diverse range of people of language. I think I'm sincere. I'm caring, loving a person of integrity, a person who gives off their best, Um, and a person who people trust. I don't think being gay makes a difference to that again. I think the gayness is just one more facet of who I who I am. I don't think that makes any difference whether whether you whether you're gay or whether you're a rugby player or a Presbyterian or a vegan to me, these are all just aspects of who we are. And that's why I'm sometimes a little cynical of the label gay. Why do we judge people by their sexuality. You know, years ago people were judged by the colour of their skin. We've got a bit more sophisticated than that now. I don't think a person's sexuality defines who they are at all. It makes them who they are. But it's not. It's not the be all and end all. There's a lot. We're a lot more complex than just our sexuality. And you would use a word like gay as opposed to something like homosexual or queer or queer is not a very nice word. Um, I'm quite happy to use the term gay. I don't have a problem with that. Homosexual, to me is is kind of a bit, uh, medical. So a gay? Yeah, I'm a gay man. I don't have a problem with that at all. It's quite a nice term, actually. Yeah, sales. What about the idea that, um, initially your contact was a physical male to male contact? That is. Or do you find it different from then actually going into say, like a relationship with a male? It's it's It's more than about a physical connection. It's it's it's This wasn't a relationship. This was simply someone to try out to see what it was like having sex with a man there was, there wasn't There's no there's no relationship involved on on either part. Basically, you have an hour with this person. So no, we're not talking about building a relationship. A relationship comes or came for me later on. Uh, a relationship is when you show a a commitment to another person and vice versa. And you say, um, I would like to share some or all of my life with you, and they do the same. And so from that point of view, I'm very fortunate. I. I have a partner who is younger than I am, Um, and we enjoy each other's company, uh, very much. And And I care for him a great deal, and he cares for me. We don't live together, Uh, mainly because I quite like my space. And also, um, the apartment here is too small for two people to live in. Really? So sometimes we're together. Sometimes we're separate. Um, however, I still have my former life. Uh, my wife and I are still very good friends. She is still the person that I love. A great deal. Uh, and there's no resentment on my on my part. That was a waste of 27 years. Um, so we we still see each other a great deal. And in fact, um, last Saturday, my partner and my wife and I went out together and had dinner together at friends. And, uh, which is very funny because my partner and I actually stopped and picked my wife up. So it's a bit of a scrap about which of them is going to sit in the back seat, but, you know, just bloody get on with it, and that's very funny. Uh, and I'm very fortunate. Um, last last Christmas, they each exchange exchanged Christmas presents together. That's pretty remarkable. I think, um, for for two people who are part of my life, I think it's wonderful. Um, and then sometimes I will do something, and my wife will say, Oh, does he still do that? And then my partner will say yes, he does, And then the two of them start together. Um, so actually, they're very good friends, So, uh, yeah, I'm very fortunate from that point of view. Uh, and certainly my relationship with my Children and my grandchildren hasn't changed whatsoever. You know, sometimes, uh, I, I do things with my family with my partner, and sometimes I do them without. He doesn't have to be involved in all aspects of my family and with his family. I think that that's that's quite reasonable. I don't want this to sound like a kind of a binary question, but I know that you you you've had experience of of both having a married life with Children and also, uh, as a as a gay man. And I'm just wondering if you could kind of compare and contrast, what are the similarities and differences, Or, I mean, maybe I think there's a danger in that of of using stereotypes. Um, when I when I was married and I and I had a mortgage and a wife and Children and babies and things, that is a little different to now when, as an older man, I don't have those responsibilities. And so there's a danger of sort of saying, Well, if you're a if you're a, uh, a non gay man, then you're you're busy, you know, mowing lawns on Saturday and cleaning the car and having a mortgage. And if you're a gay man, you can be out there having dinner because you've got more income and going off overseas and so on. I think that's a little unfair. Those sorts of of, um, stereotypes. And there's a danger with any stereotype of of maintaining what other people think of as the status quo. Uh, I'm still very involved with my family. Uh uh, Really, to me, it hasn't actually changed that point of view, it has changed. It has given me a chance to meet people that maybe I would not have met before. And I think I'm very fortunate to do that just as people maybe join Rotary or something. And then they get to meet another group of people whom they may not have had contact with. It has given me an insight into, uh, a a group of men, Um, that I probably would not have met before, and that's been quite insightful. Um, I guess if you're looking at stereotypes because many of the game you I know have not had Children, probably they have more money, so they are able to do things like travel, and, um, and and and eating out more and so on like that. Whereas when you're with a family in a more those things are are are harder. But I don't know, um, I don't know. That's necessarily a sexual thing. It's just how how life is, isn't it? And I also know, you know, gay men who have Children, young Children as well, and and they're getting on with it. That doesn't make much difference. Maybe. Do you think that you're treated any differently now from by other people? Uh, no. I'm not treated any differently at all. I'm still the same person that I am. I've just added this one dimension to me, to me, to make me who I am. There was, as I mentioned, there was one person who, uh seemed to be unable to accept the fact that that that I was a gay man and um wrote a letter saying that she didn't wish to have anything to do with me, that she never actually liked me anyway, that really she liked my wife, which was interesting. Um, I gave the letter to my wife and she was actually very angry and very hurt and and and and quite tearful, that somebody could feel like that when we thought that this person was our friend. And as far as I'm aware, my wife doesn't actually have any communication with that person at all anymore. That was quite intriguing. Um, beyond that, No, no, I guess that kind of question came from I guess some people's sense that, you know, there is a bit of a kind of internalised homophobia within oneself thinking, Oh, I'm treated differently because of my homosexuality. Um, uh, if that's the case, then that's not to me. That hasn't come across any more than, uh, I'm an Anglican. Am I treated any different to a, um, to a Presbyterian or II? I eat at a vegetarian restaurant and you eat at a Chinese restaurant. I don't see any difference. So, no, I've not been treated any differently at all. Uh, the only hesitation I would put there or the only comment I would make there is it may be it makes people sometimes in the company you're with, stop and think a little more about making AAA gay joke, just as, uh, sometimes people say things about, say, Polynesian people or something. And maybe when they're in the company with those people. Hopefully they stop and they think before they speak because there are people there. Maybe, uh, who would take offence and it is not appropriate to And, uh, but certainly I've never had any any issues with that whatsoever? No, I've been very fortunate prior to coming out. What were your thoughts of gay people? Um uh, I probably didn't tend to think about them a great deal at all. Um, I suppose my stereotype were of of gay men who were, um, who were perhaps a little self centred who perhaps were flamboyant. Um, you know, are you being served so that sort of stereotype that we look at on television Certainly it wouldn't have been of a married man with Children and grandchildren that that wouldn't have occurred. Um, yeah. I'm wondering if you can talk about, um, ageing and some of the impacts of ageing. Um, what are some of the things that that you consider now in terms of ageing? If you talk about the difference between ageing as a gay man and ageing as a non gay man, I actually don't see any difference at all. Apart from the fact that maybe, uh, there's an awful, awful lot of men who are my age who are turning into very old men very quickly who are boring. But I don't think that that's a gay thing. I think that that is the personality of the people. Uh, I don't I don't see any difference at all if you're talking about financial security. If you're talking about love, if you're talking about belonging to a community or a family or to, um, organisations um, you could argue in some ways, being on one's own gives you greater flexibility and more chance to do those sorts of things. But I don't think that that's a sexual thing. Um, if I want to go and join a theatre group or a or a film society or something, I can do that, and I don't see that that is a sexual thing at all. I think we have to be very careful that we don't that that that that being gay overrides absolutely everything else at all I. I don't liken it to that at all. When people initially when I came out and said to me, What's it like? And I struggled for an analogy. And then I thought, Imagine, you know, you fly to New York to go on holiday and you get taken to the hotel and you check in at the front desk and they give you a key. And it's room 16. 14, and you go up to the 16th floor, the door opens on the lift. You step out into this corridor with the Vulcan carpet, and then you got to decide, You know, you got to look at the numbers. Are you gonna go left or straight ahead or to the right? And eventually you go along the labyrinth of corridors and you open the door and there, that's your room. That is where you belong. And then, uh, for me, the analogy is that what I've done now is that I've come back out of that room, gone down the corridor, back into the lift, and I've gone to a different floor. And now I've looked for another door and I've gone to a different room, and that's the place where I am now. That's that's kind of That's the only analogy that I've really been able to give to other people is that you belong somewhere, but But it could be that you move places. How do you get that sense of liberation? Because I think for a lot of people, they would just be scared of, actually kind of leaving that room that they've known for 40 years and and finding somewhere else. I think you're on the earth once. Uh, there is no point regretting later on, I wished I had done something. Whether it's travel or joining a church group or or taking up a new hobby or an interest or changing your job. You are the person who has to initiate that change. Yes, it can be scary. It can be bloody scary. Uh, and all I can say to other people is regardless of sexuality, is if you've got a dream, you get out there and you make it happen. If you want to change jobs, do the research. Think about it and you take responsibility and get out there and make it change. If you are looking at your sexuality and and that has changed. But I'm putting that in inverters comments again. Um, I all I can say is, the longer you dwell on it, the worse it is once you are out there and you are who you are now not hiding behind this this screen, it's much easier. It's much easier. And and and, uh and I probably should have done that earlier. To be honest, in a lot of what you've been saying on picking up things about kind of spirituality and kind of like a very holistic approach. And I'm just wondering, can you talk about, um, your beliefs in terms of spirituality or religion? Uh, I was reared in an Anglican house. Um, and you know, we went to Sunday school on on Sundays. Everybody did, and I was confirmed. But for me, at the moment, mainline religion probably doesn't hold a particular attraction. If anything, I think I would probably call myself a humanist. And that is, uh, Humanists. Sort of say there's something out there controlling it, or there's some reason for it. I don't understand it, Really. It's beyond my control. So get on with life. If you want to do things, it is up to you to make them happen. Uh, this is not going to come from divine intervention. Um, he's too busy somewhere else. Looking after Obama or something like that. Um, so just get on there. Uh, yeah, I think it's probably a humanist. Take it. Take responsibility for yourself, and you make it happen. You mentioned just before about, um some people that you know are just becoming boring in terms of getting older and and you get boring as you get as you age. How do you How do you stop? How do you stop that process? Um, by by saying Shit, I actually even got, you know, I've only got another 35 years left and there's so much to do, I want to I want to learn a new language. I want to do some more travel I want to do. I would love to learn some music. I want to dance, Um, by by By adding to those things that you already are to make you even more of of around a person of who you are and getting out there and doing it, you know, go and take yourself off to Asian cooking classes and something rather than saying Well, actually, I'm 60 now and it's time to start slowing down. I actually think the opposite. I think it's time to start doing things because you've got a bit of time now and you've got money and you can be a little bit irresponsible, can't you? You can just lock the door here and you can go away for a weekend and, you know, and you don't have to worry about the lawns or the cats or those sorts of things or cleaning the car. Yeah, just do it. Hell, yeah. Absolutely. Yes. That's why I'm going out this afternoon. Yeah. So what are some of your other interests? What? What are you into? Probably the visual arts. Uh, I was a teacher of art and design for many years here in Napier. Um, so I do enjoy the visual arts, um, architecture, painting and so on. I enjoy that, Uh, my own form of artwork is a wood cuts, and I would like to get back into that. I miss not doing some sort of creative art myself. Uh, I do enjoy the theatre. Food and wine, of course. Here in Hawke's Bay, why wouldn't you, um, travel Passionate traveller? Um, I've I've been very fortunate. Generally, I've been able to travel overseas just about every year. Um uh I would like to continue doing that before they start charging you too much for insurances. You know, for the twilight tours when you're in the twilight of your life. Um, I would love to. Probably do a little bit of backpacking through some places again. We did it. My wife and I did that when we were young. And I would like to go back to some of those places, maybe to travel to India, for example. Um, I think that would be quite fun, but slightly more upmarket little hotels than what we stayed at before. Thank you. Yeah, like with a flushing toilet. Um, so it's just about that you're only limited by your imagination, and there's no point sitting back and just get out there and make things happen. Yeah. Can you describe the room that we're in? Because this is this is this is this is your creation. It is, um, so we are in a listed building in Central Napier. Uh, this building that we're in was built as a hotel following the earthquake in 1931. I understand. The room that we're in was the kitchen for the hotel. Um, and it it stopped being a hotel. I understand. In the early 19 sixties, I think this room then had a series of people through. But lastly, um, while I was here, it was a photographer's gallery. So the room we're in is a studio, and, um, basically, I gutted it. Took out the strong room, everything that was in the room, and, um, and have redecorated it. So at the top, as a decorative Scotia moulding and an art deco pattern, Um, with lights, Art Deco, um, the windows that you see there are are listed, so they're unable to be altered. Um, and then the kitchen has gone in, and what I've done is I've paid homage to the original building here. That was a hotel, and it's kind of reflected in the kitchen that you see there, Um, and it's pretty over the top, um, black gloss and mirror a nightmare to keep clean, but it looks pretty showy, doesn't it? Um, And then there's a little library over behind us and the shelves I made, um, from African rosewood. Um, and about the very time that I was making those at work, uh, getting those made at work There was a famine in this place in Africa, and you see the poor people there with one top pole and then a stick, and they're building themselves a house. And there I had African rosewood building a library, and I do feel slightly guilty. So when I'm rich, maybe I'll go and sponsor an African village or something, just to say Sorry, I've got your wood in my library. Um, so there's a lot of chrome in here. There's a lot of Polish stainless steel, and there's an incredible amount of mirror, um, which is wonderful for egocentric people and imagery. There's the there are there are hundreds of images here. Well, yeah, it's fairly eclectic, so we've got Art Deco pictures on the wall. We have artwork here from an uncle of mine who was an artist in London. Um, next to that are some pages from an old Arab book that I bought when I was in Jordan at the beginning of the year to the left. Again, I see photographs from um from Route 66 that I travelled on in America. There's a original record up there of tin tin. There's Roman coins. It's a bit of a muddle, really, isn't it? So what you do is you sort of go through phases and you take them down and you put some new ones up. Um, there's a wall hanging there. My sister, um, worked from Canada gaining inspiration from, uh, around Napier. There's a set of Fauna City plates there. It's pretty eclectic. Really. How would you describe your taste? Eclectic, uh, slightly muddled and confused. But I don't mind. These are things around me that I enjoy. And then the corner are grandchildren's toys and things and that that that works for me. This is my home. Yeah, Yeah. Muddled, sort of slightly upmarket shop. Really Probably style. Yes. It must be wonderful, actually, coming home at the end of the day and and just being surrounded by by all of these wonderful visual treats but aren't aren't most people anyway, when they go to their home, wherever that is or or your home is what you make of it, isn't it? I think it's probably more than just a building with windows and doors to meet your home. If you live in it, it takes on a bit of the soul of you and your personality. Um, And if this is my personality, then, um yeah, scary. So coming from, uh, Wellington, uh, I want to know, Can you make me understand what it's like as a gay man in a provincial New Zealand city? That's a little tricky because I have never lived anywhere else as a gay man, so I have nothing to compare it with. The only comment that I would make that I probably do miss, is being part of maybe a group of of gay men of similar ilk who are interested maybe in, uh, in not intellectualising in some sort of political association of being involved in a group that maybe is able to initiate some change that is able to, uh uh to to contact politicians. When you're in Wellington, you have a lot more access to those sorts of people. I would like to be part of a group that maybe is set up to assist other gay men and so on. In the process that I have been through, there is nothing like that in in a small provincial in this provincial city that simply doesn't exist. Uh, so I miss that I miss that professional aspect of being a gay person here in in Hawke's Bay. What about in terms of gay media? Do you Do you get things like the Gay Express magazine? Or do you go on to gay NZ dot com and on websites and No, not at all. No, no, I have I have done in the past, but I actually don't feel that I need that particularly anymore. I'm not particularly political. I'm not going to go out there wearing armbands and say in gay pride and all that. I don't feel I need to do that any more than I would want to go down the road saying that I'm an ageing Anglican. I don't I don't feel the need to do that for me. No, I'm too modest or too humble or yeah, I don't need to do that. What do you think it's like for younger gay people in this area? Uh, the younger gay men that I've met, I think, uh, first of all, I admire them that that when they are young, they're prepared to step outside the norm and inverted commas and say, I'm a gay person and I'm getting on with my life. Uh, I think that does take some courage, but I think attitudes are changing again. Um, the biggest issue, I think, probably is the lack of a resource for them to get information. Um, about being a gay person, that this those things simply don't exist in a big city. You have by sheer numbers, you will have people who step up who say, Let's put in a gay support group or a gay gay phone line or something. When you're in an area like this, that simply doesn't exist. The last thing I think, though, that young gay men need or gay people need are old people telling them what to do or how they should be acting or so on. I'm not certain that they need that I. I don't think they need that. They I think they're capable within their own group. And now with the Internet of of getting themselves sorted out. And so, uh, I think they're probably, from that point of view, quite fortunate. I think I'm fortunate in the sense that I belong to a group of men who who didn't know or didn't admit to being gay, and they now have. I now have Children, as I've said and grandchildren. I think probably there is quite a unique sociological, uh, study there waiting to be done on people like myself because the young gay men that I'm meeting, uh, will never have the chance or the privilege of having Children and grandchildren. Whereas I've had that. And there is a group of us who are moving through getting older. Now, um, that probably may not ever occur again because of societal changing attitudes and things. Um, and maybe maybe I Maybe I should start a group and, you know, in this area for ageing gay men or something. Uh, I'm not sure I'm not certain, really, But I want to do more than potluck dinners with old people. Yeah. No, that's not me. Um, and I don't necessarily need to socialise with a lot of other gay people. I have a a wide mixture of people I socialise with. I don't want just to socialise with people because of their sexuality anymore than people who play rugby socialise with rugby. People or nurses socialise with nurses. Uh, the the people who are around me that I socialise with have a wide range of personalities and interests and things. Um, and I think that's pretty healthy. How many gay people do you know in this region? Do I know? 0, um 20. It's, like 20. Yeah, um, socialise a little with them. Uh, I flattered with, uh, two of them, Three of them in the past. Um, so relatively small community. Um, yeah, about, say, 20. Are there, um, any support groups or any kind of, um, fun groups that that that people join with the kind of the The main thing is, is the sexuality? Sure. As far as I'm aware, there's none. There was there was one group. Um, but they've kind of fizzled out. They fizzled out. I think the area simply is too small, and there's not sufficient numbers of people. I liken it a bit too. Um, you know, you know the circles on the Olympic on the Olympic flag there's this group of, say, 20 people around me. I'm in that circle. And then there's another circle there, and there's about three or four people in that same circle that we know. But by the time you get to the next one over, I don't know who those people are, and occasionally you come across someone and they'll say, Oh, that's a gay person. Don't you know them? No, I don't, Um but there's no There's no groups here as far as I'm aware now of of who had done to it or go to a movie or play sport or handbag tossing or whatever else. Um, no, I'm not aware of that. No. What are the best parts of living in Napier? The climate. Fantastic climate. Look at today. Outside. Look at there in the garden there. Uh, the the relative ease of getting around, you know, we can We can drive from here within 20 minutes. We could go to three or four different wineries, restaurants, the ocean. I enjoy the proximity of the ocean. I can walk up to the beach here in three minutes and swim. Um, for me, my family are here. Uh, that's a good. That's a good reason I can get to Wellington relatively easily. Auckland. It's a good place to live. It's a good place to live. Looking ahead. Where do you think you'll be in five years? Time are probably here, Um, and and slightly stuck in the same chair that I'm sitting in now. Unless I get one of those booster chairs for old people so they don't have to struggle to get out of, um, I'm very happy here. Um, every time there's Lotto, we make big plans, my partner and I, and then we go to cash in our tickets, and the ships just sell us dud ones that don't come up with the goods. So we haven't got the flash house out in the country, you know, with the stables and the barn and the cars and the weekend car. And that. So sadly, life might have to be a little more modest than that. Um, who knows? Life's a journey. Do you stay here? Do you find something different for the moment? Uh, this is fantastic. Uh, between us, my wife and I have had about what, 13 different houses I think. And so we've done the suburban home. I've had the house in the country we've built new. And so, for the moment, an apartment in the inner city is just wonderful. It's great. Fantastic. Five years time. Who knows? Um, the only problem here is where would my private Swedish nurse live when he has to come to bath me or something. But I suppose we can deal with that, couldn't we? Really? Yeah. Yeah. This afternoon, after this interview, you're you're heading off to somewhere very special, and I'm just wondering if you can, um, as we wrap up, tell me about where you're off to and and and what you're about to be doing. Yeah, but it's not very glamorous. I'm off to a theatre just over the road here. Uh, Phantom of the opera is on that. I'm a member of Napier operatic, And, um so the Phantom of the Opera is on. Sadly, however, when I went for audition, they clearly didn't understand my very specific skills. I would have made a wonderful boat in the French sewer. Just look, look at that. I mean, that looks like a great boat. Um, So, uh, I'm now the usher, but that's all right. At least you're at the front where people can see you and you get to see the show. Sometimes. If you're backstage, you have to wear black and you're in the corner and people don't even know you're there. That's that's That's a bit sad. Really? So, yeah. Fans for the opera this afternoon. That's pretty good, isn't it? Yes. And there'll be lots of people there with Zimmer frames. I understand because it's a matinee. Um, So I'll be able to see, you know, which sort of model I should be buying. Probably for Christmas next year. So that I'm ready to go or keep an eye on the op shop, you know, because they take them over there when they've been gathered up. And a second hand one is all right? Yeah. Yeah, that's this afternoon. Taken care of. Really? And then tomorrow I'm off to my granddaughter's third birthday, and she's put in the order for the birthday cake and stuff, so yeah, pretty varied. Really? Yes. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1960s ; 2000s ; Africa ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Asian ; Auckland ; Bible ; Canada ; Chinese ; Christchurch ; Christmas ; Coming Up ; Events ; Film Society ; Houston ; India ; Job ; London ; Napier ; Napier Operatic Society ; People ; Presbyterian ; Rule Foundation ; Space ; Stuff ; Tony Smith ; Wellington ; access ; acting ; ageing ; anger ; artist ; arts ; attraction ; author ; belonging ; binary ; birthday ; board ; boat ; building ; cars ; cats ; change ; cheese ; children ; church ; coming out ; communication ; community ; conference ; conservative ; cooking ; courage ; creativity ; dance ; design ; difference ; disadvantage ; discovery ; division ; dream ; earthquake ; eating ; failure ; family ; film ; flamboyant ; food ; freedom ; french ; friends ; fun ; gallery ; gaming ; gay ; grandchildren ; guilt ; hell ; helpline ; hiding ; hit ; homosexual ; hotel ; humanism ; identity ; imagery ; imagination ; inspiration ; integrity ; internet ; intervention ; journey ; labels ; language ; letter ; liberation ; library ; loss ; love ; marriage ; mary ; media ; meetings ; mirror ; music ; news ; normal ; older age ; opera ; other ; painting ; parents ; podcast ; politics ; potluck dinners ; privilege ; profile ; queer ; quiz ; reading ; relationships ; religion ; research ; resource ; respect ; rugby ; sad ; safety ; school ; sculpture ; secondary school ; security ; servant ; sex ; sexuality ; shame ; ships ; sin ; soul ; spirituality ; sport ; stables ; stereotypes ; straight ; struggle ; study ; sunday school ; support ; surgery ; teacher ; teachers college ; teaching ; television ; theatre ; time ; top ; tourism ; travel ; treat ; trust ; university ; vice ; visual arts ; voice ; wine ; work. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/tony_smith_profile.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089549. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.