The title of this recording is "Sian Torrington on the Topp Twins exhibition". It is described as: Sian Torrington, curator of the Topp Twins exhibition, talks about the process of developing the exhibition at Te Manawa Museum in Palmerston North. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 6th July 2017. Sian Torrington is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 31 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Sian Torrington, curator of the Topp Twins exhibition, talks about the process of developing the exhibition at Te Manawa Museum in Palmerston North. The exhibition ran from 20 May – 29 October 2017. The content in the recording covers the decades 1980s through to the 2010s. A brief summary of the recording is: This podcast features an interview with Sian Torrington, curator of the Topp Twins exhibition held at Te Manawa Museum in Palmerston North from May to October 2017. The interview conducted by Gareth Watkins, provides insights into the significance of the Topp Twins - famed New Zealand entertainers - and the process of curating an exhibition about their lives and careers, spanning the 1980s to the 2010s. The Topp Twins are highlighted as important figures for a multitude of reasons, including their ability to connect with diverse audiences, their unique mix of humor and thought-provoking content, and their representation across multiple community identities. The exhibition built upon a smaller showcase from 2012, and Torrington was tasked with curating it due to their expertise in homosexual law reform, activism, and community engagement. To create the exhibition, Torrington engaged deeply with archive materials, including posters, set lists, flyers, fan mail, and extensive footage, sourced from the collection that the Topp Twins and their management had deposited at the Alexander Turnbull Library. Through these materials, the curator sought to weave together stories of the Topp Twins' public and private lives, their activism, and careers. One particular thread that captivated Torrington was the Topp Twins' beginnings as street performers in Auckland, their fearlessness both in performance and in the topics they tackled, such as LGBTI inclusion and gender equality - which resonated with the social backdrop of 1980s New Zealand. The twins' ability to engage with various groups, from radical queers to farmers, is particularly noted, reflecting their broad appeal and effectiveness in confronting social issues. The exhibition delved into various themes, starting with the Topp Twins' early life and tracing their journey through various activist movements essential in New Zealand during the 1980s - including the anti-nuclear protests, the Bastion Point occupation, and the Springbok rugby tour protests. The display also included an interactive segment, "Becoming the Characters," allowing visitors to dress up and engage in performances, mirroring the Topp Twins’ playful and creative approach to entertainment and activism. Torrington's commitment to authentically representing the Topp Twins' identities, especially their working-class, butch persona, was crucial in curating the exhibition, countering any attempts to soften this image for mainstream acceptance. The Topp Twins’ sense of social justice and activism was rooted in fairness, kindness, and the values imparted by their upbringing, which the exhibit aimed to capture. Despite initial concerns regarding living figures evaluating their portrayals, the twins placed their trust in the curatorial team. The outcome was an exhibition that incited laughter, reflection, and participation, resonating with audiences, and generating discussions on social history and activism, with space to contribute to ongoing narratives through mini placards in the activism section. Looking ahead, Torrington expressed hopes for the exhibition to tour and for the content to expand onto online platforms - potentially through podcasts featuring extended interviews with the Topp Twins on contemporary topics. In terms of personal undertakings, Torrington plans to derive work from their previous project "We Don't Have To Be The Building" and to explore further the archiving and sharing of queer stories across generations, alongside pursuing more curatorial and artistic projects. The full transcription of the recording begins:  So, Andy Lowe, Uh, the director of Te Manu has been wanting to do an exhibition on the top twins for a number of years and been talking to, um, the them and their management about the idea of doing that. He was involved in the first exhibition, Um, in the Waikato, Um and so it Yeah, it felt like now was a really good time to do that. And he asked me to curate it because of my previous, uh, project around homosexual law reform and activism and community engagement in that way. Yeah. So? So why are the top twins important? Um, the top twins are important for 1000 reasons, and I'm sure everyone in New Zealand probably has an answer to that, um, and and different answers. And maybe that's part of what makes them important, because they are important to so many people in so many different ways and across really diverse identities and communities. Yeah, and I think one of the kind of phrases that kept coming up through the exhibition was, um they make us laugh, and they make us think, um and and it's fun. Um, so I think those three things are. Yeah, Makes them pretty important. And you were saying that there was an earlier exhibition on the top twins? When did that happen? So that was, um I can't remember the exact date, but, um, in in 2012. That exhibition. Um, so that was the first exhibition on them. Uh, but it was It was very small. It was in a regional museum. And, um so, yeah, so that was a good sort of starting point. So in the archives, I found the object list for the exhibition. So everything that they had, um, on show, um, to sort of see Yeah, see, See where the ideas started, really? To make an exhibition. So that quite surprises me because the top twins have been around well since at least the early eighties. If not, but before then, why do you think the first exhibition happened in 2012, I? I am not sure if people I think it's more of a contemporary thing to think about making exhibitions about about musicians or about, um, particular people who are not necessarily artists like the Alexander McQueen exhibition or the David Bowie exhibition or, um, sort of looking at those all of the ephemera that's around a performative career. Um, so, yeah, and we're really lucky, because their, um, management and a Cuthbert has been their manager for 30 years, and she's really kept everything. So we're extremely lucky to have all of that. Yeah. So, uh I mean, where do you start? Where did you start with With looking at the material I started, um, in the archives. So, uh, the top twins and their management deposited their, um, their collection into the Alexander Turnbull library at the National library a couple of years ago. So that was really great, because it's all been catalogued. It's all been sorted through. Um, so that's where I started. And I spent many, many, many days, um, in the in the library, going through all sorts of things. Posters, set lists, uh, flyers, fan mail, um, documentation around tours. So, looking for looking for the stories and the objects that were going to help us to tell those stories. Really? Yeah. So that's that's where I started. Kind of getting my own head around around the the sort of back stories. Yeah. And also in in, um, watching hundreds of hours of top twins footage of TV shows and concerts and everything that's in that's available there. Yeah. So did you come across anything kind of unexpected? Um, I think the, um I didn't really know about how their career started. And I found that just a really fascinating thread about King on the streets in Auckland and being just going to Auckland being broke, going. Let's, uh we've got the guitars in the car, let's sing. And that being the first, um, yeah, sort of public experience of singing on the street and making money and going, Oh, this works And then doing that every Saturday night for the next couple of years, you know? So I really, really enjoyed that story. Yeah, there's some amazing footage from those early days of the bus in a We were just so together. Yeah, they're just so they're so energetic. I think that really strikes me about that early footage. Uh, even if they I could just watch their dancing in those performances. They're such physical performers and sort of back bends and, you know, it's like 100% commitment at all times. Yeah. Yeah, and fearless. That's What? II? I found it a very, um, encouraging experience making this show being part of making this show because they they just went for it. And when I watch buskers on the street, I think about that and I sort of think you're either doing it or you're not doing it, you know? And if you're doing it, you've got to give it, give it everything and that's what that's what they did. And people were just so drawn to that. Yeah, and I guess fearless in some of the topics they were were choosing to sing about as well in in their kind of activist role. Absolutely. I mean, they are so direct with the lyrics. They're So, um, I mean, my partner is a journalist and they often say to me with my own writing and just say what you mean. Say exactly what you mean and and it it's great to hear those kind of lyrics where they couldn't be any more direct and and sort of challenging and also really, really funny. And I think there's something that's, um, it's almost like it's funny or it's it's liberating to hear that kind of directness because It's the sort of thing that we might think, but, oh, you couldn't quite say it like that, you know? But they say it for us. Yeah, and I mean, New Zealand was so different back in the early eighties. I mean, do you have any sense of how they were? Um, how they were received, um, back in those early days? Yeah. I mean, I think because because they were funny, it's so disarming and watching. There's, uh, a lot of footage in the archives of of early tours. Um, and seeing how they they relate to people all over the country. And that's that's what I think is is really incredible about them because they can talk to radical queers. They can talk to farmers, they can talk to housewives, they can talk to the Farmers Federation union at a, um, a MP show and people we'll talk to them and I they they really they really remind. Linda in particular, really reminds me of my first girlfriend, who is probably about the same age as them now. And and her thing was, she's, um uh, she's a working class person, and that's something that I get really strongly from them is they are working class farming girls, and that's how they talk to people. And that's what my ex-girlfriend was like. You just you just talk to. She used to say, You just don't give people any any space to be homophobic. You just right up there and you stick your hand out and you say, Hey, how are you doing? You know, and um yeah, I think that's what they're like, too. And it's awesome. So talk me through some of the themes of the exhibition. So the exhibition starts with, um, their early lives and growing up. So it's just called Who are the top twins? Um, so looking at them growing up on the farm and um, leaving home and going and doing Army training and and early activist stuff, um, And then and it goes into, uh, love for New Zealand, which is all about their TV TV shows. So I wanted people to have an opportunity to just sit down and watch the telly. Um, because that's how a lot of people you know came into contact with them in in our lounges. So I wanted it to feel a bit like a lounge, and you can just sit there and watch the TV and have a laugh. Um, so that's the first two sections. And, um, there's also a whole lot of material around the TV shows and them going overseas and, um, that kind of thing. And then we go into a section that's been very popular, Um, which is called Becoming the Characters. Um, so that's, uh, that's all about their characters. So we are really lucky to have some original costumes, Um, some of the very first costumes that they wore for many, many years. Um, and that's really wonderful. And we've got sort of sketches of of the costumes and makeup sheets. And so I wanted to try and take people sort of backstage, and there's footage of them talking about how they develop the characters and how they perform them. And then there's sets of, uh, of of costumes that you can try on, and scripts and encouragement to to play. And so that's one of the things that I've been seeing. The most of on Social media is, uh, what we were hoping for, which is people dressing up and taking selfies and having a laugh. Um, and that was one of the parts that people said, Oh, you museum people said, Oh, you're crazy. No one will do that And I said, OK, well, we'll we'll just see a, um And on the opening opening night, Linda and Jules were there and their parents and their brother and his partner, and, um and so we got to that section and people, uh, people just just went for it. Uh, a city councillor just put on a costume and said to her mate, Come on, come on. And so they were. They were can and can and they just picked up a script and did this performance. And Jules and Linda were absolutely cracking up and thought it was hilarious and were filming them. And I thought, This is Wow, This is a real sort of, you know, snaking. It's own tale kind of moment. Where there's, you know, it's Jewel and Linda. And then there's the costumes. And then there's the real costumes behind us, and it's all and it's all just a laugh. And they had they had an audience, you know, these performers and everyone applauded, and so that was kind of my dream come true, really, is that I wanted people to be able to to to play and be expressive in in the in the gallery, in the museum. Yeah. So there's some of the themes there's more. Yeah, and and then I guess with all that, uh, humour going on underneath that there's a whole lot of really heavy, heavy, quite heavy topics like, um, you know, LGBTI inclusion. Um, gender equality. I mean, they've been at the forefront of some really strong activist movements. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we could have made a whole show just about that. Really? Um, and the activism, uh, section is the way that the, uh, the designer worked it, which was so beautifully done is that that was sort of the the centre of the show. And then everything. You can see that that section from every other part of the show. So it's kind of like the the the heart of what? They're what they're doing the drive of what they're doing. And they talk about it like that. Um, they both say, uh, you know, Jules says I, I don't think there's a day of my life where I didn't feel political, you know, or, um Linda talking about, You know, it's not like you wake up one day and think, Oh, I don't feel like being political today. It's just, you know, you that's who you are, and you care. And, um so, yes, So that's a really important part of the show. And we focused on the four main, um, protest movements of of that time of of the 19 eighties. So, um, homosexual law reform, anti nuclear protests, um, bastion point and the Springboks, of course, the Springbok. So, um, those those four are sort of the main themes. And it was exciting to have a show where you've got such personal, well loved people who also their lives almost kind of narrate a social history of that time. Um, and we wanted to. One thing I'm really interested in in terms of social history is how we connect with each other through generations. So, um, Jules and Linda are nearly 60. Um, And when I interviewed them, they it was the day after all of these young people young women had marched on Parliament against sexual violence. Um, and they and they talked about that and they said, You know, it's really important that we that we know who fought for our rights in the past and we celebrate them, and, um but they said, You know, those those 13 year olds you know, marching on parliament, we want to be there cheering them on and saying You go, girl, you know, And I found that really, really moving, You know, it's like, That's what That's what I hope the show can do for, for for people is go. You know, people have been doing this a long time and fighting for a long time, and this is how they did it. And you can do it too. And you are doing it, you know, And we talked about how, um, that kind of protesting is is coming back. Um, and we're seeing it all over the world, people on the on the street and with placards and and meeting and the the insecurity of the Internet as a forum, you know, and people going back to to meeting in person. Um, so yeah, that's that's one of the things that I hope the show can can give to people is is encouragement and, um, seeing that it's been done before, and it worked. So keep going. Yeah. So where do you think? Uh, Jules and Linda's kind of sense of social justice and activism comes from they say it comes from their upbringing. Um, and that they were always brought up That, uh, you should never you should never hate anyone and that you should that you should be kind. And that fairness was really, really important. Um, so I mean, for me, that that goes back to that working class farming sort of, uh, values and and ethics really about Well, that's that's just not really on, is it? You know, it's, uh it's really refreshing to hear them talk about that kind of stuff because they keep it really simple. Um, so when they talk about the the the Springbok and they say, um, you know, we grew up watching rugby and we used to get up in the middle of the night and watch rugby, and but when that was happening, we had to say to Mom and Dad, Hey, you know we're against the tour because it's it's not fair. And people are not. People are getting people are getting hurt and we we want to stand up for them, you know? So that's that's what they identify. Yeah, I'm really interested in how we get a sense of a person or people from what they leave behind. And so you're in the archive. You're looking at all this material that I've collected over the years. How does your sense of the top twins from that compare to when you actually meet them? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that was really striking for me about the archives, um, is how much work has gone into their career. Because, you see, you see all of the bookings. You see all of the fan mail, which they've answered You, um you see all of the planning and the, um you know, one episode about dogs and how many dogs they went through to find the right kind of dogs. And, uh, you know, all the permissions to use places. And I think for me, that was, you know, and as an artist as well myself is like, Oh, yeah, all the stuff that you don't see when you just go to a show and you have a fantastic time And you think, Oh, that was great, you know, and they they look like they're having a fantastic time. And they are. But they've also worked really, really, really hard to bring you that experience in such a beautiful, seamless way. Um, so that's something that came across from the archives. And, um, yeah, I think it is really hard to get a real picture. For what? What people leave behind. I mean, with them because they have the, uh because, of course, they have all the television shows and the recordings, and they they're very articulate talking about themselves. So they, uh, radio interviews. And so it all kind of comes together to make a picture. Um, but one thing I really wanted to try and get across in the show as a queer person, um, is what I don't think comes across when you watch them on television and, um is that they're butchers, you know? There, there's there's strong, um, gruff butchers when you meet them, you know, and And it was great, because I Oh, yes, yes, I know this. I know this, uh, way of being, you know, and it takes a while to warm up and and they're not sure about you and and then Oh, OK, Yeah. You're you're all right, you know? And so, I, I wanted to get that across in the show somehow as well, because I, um I I love that identity. I love butchers. They're wonderful. Um, and how does that go in? And so there was There are some images in the show that are, uh, you know, they they're very masculine. They're on motorbikes, they've got leather jackets on. And to me, it's like, Well, that's that's them just being themselves, you know, um, being who they are just as people without all the characters without all of that stuff. Um, So it was really important to me that those, uh, those images went into the show and one of their newest songs, Jules has written it. And, um, I think it's just called tomboy. And it's it's all about that it's all about being butch being a tomboy. Um and so it was. I really want to honour that and make sure that came through. Yeah, I mean that that's really interesting. In terms of of that kind of identity being invisible in some situations and I'm wondering, Do you think was that the top twins themselves constructing the kind of identity that they wanted out there in public? Or was it like, say, TV saying, Oh, you can't be too. But I think it's really interesting, because I think they, um like when they can and can. You know, people don't see them as butch lesbians. They see them as can and can they see them as men? And so that's That's a really interesting sort of conversation around that. But I I know that they have been sort of, Yeah, Ma made up to sort of feminised a bit. Or, you know, So when we talked, there was sort of discussion around that of, Oh, don't use that photo. I always hated that photo, and it's It's the photos where someone has tried to, um, put more makeup on them or feminise them in a particular way. Um, and there were some really interesting conversations around that within the team of of sort of well, should we make them a bit softer and me sort of going No, let's not make them a bit softer. Let's just leave them as as strong stroppy butchers, and that's really, really cool. Um, and yeah, we wanna we want to see that. And we want to celebrate that. Yeah, And in the in the museum, which is so wonderful. Um, for the opening, there was, uh, an exhibition at the same time, Uh, which is called Butch, Um, by Rachel Hoskins. And it's a really wonderful photographic project of photographs of of butchers. And so, uh, I felt so good about that. I thought, Oh, that's such a wonderful welcome. Um, for them and acknowledgement. And so we we went through that that show as well together. And and so that was That was neat. Yeah. It's good to see our people. So what is it like when you're curating an exhibition? That is, um, highlighting living people. Um, what is it like in terms of negotiating with those people in terms of how they're portrayed? What are the stories that are accentuated? Um, yeah, II. I guess I'm kind of trying to figure out, uh, how much control did the twins have? And at what point did they come into the exhibition? Um I mean, my first answer to that question is it's terrifying. Um, So at the opening, it was it was really terrifying thinking. What are they gonna think? You know, and, yeah, living people, their parents, their you know, their people coming and and seeing. But, um, Jules and Linda, uh, made quite a conscious decision to just trust us and let it let it happen. Um, so they got to see, they sort of they didn't want to see anything until it was All the ideas were all sort of a bit developed. And there was kind of a first draught, Really. And then we went to Auckland and met with their management and talked them through everything and left them with all of the plans and said, Look, you know, if anything needs to change, that's fine. Um, And then we went up, Um, in about March, I think, and met with Jules and Linda, and that's when I interviewed them. And they gave us a lot of costumes and sort of, but it they they wanted it to be a surprise. So it was. It was a surprise, Um, exactly what it looked like. Um, and the museum, I thought, organised it really beautifully for the opening, so that they They went up first with their family, and and me and Andy and and yeah, cut the ribbon and but also went through the show first. And people really respected that. People came in behind them. And, um so I think for them, it was, uh there were a lot of things that they had forgotten about. Um, so there was some really lovely kind of moments of of Oh, look at this Jaws. Look at Look, this is so and so and so that was That was really That was really lovely. Um, and parts where? Um Linda Linda didn't have her have her glasses with her. So I said, What's this? What's this? And I said, this is the speech, uh, that account mother gave when when she ran for Auckland mayor. And so I I stood there and and and read her the speech. So it was, uh, it deeply relieving to feel like, Yeah, it's it's, uh it's a good reflection. It's an interesting reflection. And and that's what I. I worked very hard to make it as true to to them and to their methods and to their and how they've run their career. the way that the show is and the way that audiences are invited to engage with it. So, um, they're very much, you know, do it yourself. Um, you know, how do we make the characters we go shopping, you know, So it was like, cool, Let people dress up. You know, I tried to take the lead on what to do from what they've done. Um, yeah. And so what has the response been? The response has been really good, I think. I mean, I'm I'm here in Wellington, the shows in Palmerston North. So I don't get to kind of go and hang out and watch people going through the show. But I, I was there for, of course, for the opening. And there were a lot of people there, and there was a lot of a lot of laughter, a lot of spending time, Um, and a lot of responses. So in the activism section, you're able to write on a mini placard what's important to you, You know, What do we need to change? What do we need to do now? And so those were really filling up with people's ideas. Um, And then I went back. Uh, there was the museum's a conference, and so, uh, I I went and just hung out. It's nice to just watch what people are doing. So it was great to see that people were just sitting down and watching TV for a while, Um, and people with their kids and trying things on. And, um, yeah, so I think it's I think it's been really good. What's your favourite object? Or story or narrative? Um, there's a few. But I, I do really love the, um, camp mother running for Auckland Mayor. Um, for me, that's it. It's such an inspiring and fascinating and queer story about, um, being being really political, seeing something that doesn't feel OK and going. I want to do something about that and doing it in a way which is so funny and so, uh and so political at the same time. So I love those kind of things where it's like you don't have to, uh, you don't have to play their game and wear a suit and sort of, you know, to engage with politics. You can actually do it creatively and rebelliously, and people will follow you because, as Linda said when she was talking about it. You know, I'm a comedian. I'm a performer. So yeah, I know how to do a debate. I know how to win a debate. I know how to carry an audience, you know? And you think Wow. Yeah, absolutely. Those are all of the things that actually politics are about as well. Is that real performance? And, um, yeah, getting people to come with you. So, II, I love that story. Yeah, yeah. Will the exhibition turn into anything else? So, like, a book or some online presence? Where do you think it will go from here? I mean that, um there are plans to tour the exhibition. Um, so that will take different forms and different museums. So, um, I, I really hope that people go and see it in Palmerston North because it's like, that's, you know, that's the kind of ultimate way that we designed it. And and it's got all of the objects in and everything. Um, but I think yeah, I mean, I think that it has a lot of potential to have an online presence as well. And I think that it, um it starts a lot of wider conversations as well around social history and activism and and and play and how that can happen. And, um so, yeah, I'm hoping that some things may unfold around that, Um, I also the interview that I did with them. I just wanted to put the whole kind of two hours into the show, which, obviously, you can't do so in the show. There's, you know, like one minute clips that you can listen to. But there are extended pieces, which, um, hopefully are gonna go up as as podcasts so that people can listen to, you know, 10 minutes of, um, you know, Jules and Linda talking about how we're going to save the environment, for example, or, um so that was a really nice part of the show, because it's it's now it's it's them reflecting on on the themes of the show and on contemporary life, you know. Now, in March 2017, so, yeah, and just finally, what's what's next for Sean? What's next for Sean? Um well, I want to unfold some of the things that, uh, that came up out of. We don't have to be the building, so I want to, um, make a publication about that and also hoping to run quite a big event. Um, which will bring together a lot of the things we've been talking about. How do we How do we archive queer stories? How do we share them? How do we talk to each other across, um, across generations? Yeah, that kind of thing. And more art making and hopefully more curating shows. I mean, I really loved doing this show very, very special. Um, and very, very precious to to me personally to Yeah, have have been asked to do that. It was a real honour. Yeah. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1980s ; 2010s ; Alexander McQueen ; Alexander Turnbull ; Alexander Turnbull Library ; Andy Lowe ; Anti Springbok tour march (1985) ; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981) ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Arani Cuthbert ; Auckland ; Bastion Point ; Bastion Point occupation (1982) ; Butch (2017, photographic exhibition) ; Coming Up ; David ; David Bowie ; Homosexual Law Reform ; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986) ; Jools Topp ; Korea ; LGBT ; Lynda Topp ; Manawatū ; March against sexual violence (2017, Parliament) ; Mayor of Auckland ; Museums Aotearoa ; Museums Aotearoa conference (2017) ; National Library of New Zealand ; Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision ; Palmerston North ; People ; Rachel Hoskin ; Sian Torrington ; Space ; Springbok rugby tour (1981) ; Stuff ; Te Manawa Museum ; The Topp Twins: an exhibition for New Zealand ; Tomboy (song) ; Topp Twins ; Waikato ; We Don't Have To Be The Building (2016) ; Wellington ; activism ; anti-nuclear movement ; archives ; army ; artist ; audience ; building ; busking ; butch ; camp ; career ; change ; class ; comedy ; community ; concerts ; conference ; connect ; conversation ; costumes ; dance ; dancing ; dog ; dream ; dress up ; eating ; encouragement ; engagement ; environment ; ephemera ; exhibition ; expression ; family ; farm ; farming ; fearless ; feelings ; femininity ; feminisation ; filming ; forum ; fun ; gallery ; gender ; gender equality ; growing up ; hate ; history ; homosexual ; homosexual law reform ; hope ; identity ; inclusion ; internet ; interviewing ; invisibility ; justice ; kaupapa ; kindness ; laughter ; law ; leather ; leaving home ; lesbian ; library ; love ; lyrics ; makeup ; march ; masculine ; mayor ; media ; museums ; music ; narrative ; op shops ; opportunity ; other ; parents ; performance ; placard ; politics ; posters ; protest ; queer ; radio ; reflection ; rugby ; running ; rural ; sexual violence ; shopping ; singing ; social ; social history ; social justice ; social media ; speech ; suit ; television ; time ; tomboy ; top ; training ; trust ; twins ; values ; violence ; women ; work ; working class ; writing. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/sian_torrington_topp_twins.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089782. Sian Torrington also features audibly in the following recordings: "Sian Torrington - We Dont Have To Be The Building", "Leaving a Legacy" and "Service for Virginia Burns". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.