The title of this recording is "Robin Duff profile". It is described as: Robin Duff talks about many of the activist groups he was involved with in the 1970s and being the first openly gay man in New Zealand to stand for Parliament. It was recorded in Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 7th April 2013. Robin Duff is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 3 hours and 31 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: Robin Duff talks about many of the activist groups he was involved with in the 1970s, being the first openly gay man in New Zealand to stand for Parliament, and the beginnings of the National Gay Rights Coalition which grew into a membership of 65,000 people. Robin died on 16 February 2015. This podcast was made possible through generous support from the Rule Foundation. The content in the recording covers the decades 1880s through to the 1980s. A brief summary of the recording is: The profile of Robin Duff, a significant figure in the New Zealand LGBTQ+ rights movement, is captured through an extensive interview covering pivotal moments from the 1950s through the 1980s. Born in Hastings, Hawke's Bay, in 1947, Duff's childhood memories were simple and filled with family holidays, yet stirred by a growing consciousness of being different, particularly as they noticed a greater excitement towards males during their school years. Duff navigated an era when the mention of homosexuality was taboo, often whispered in secrecy, making their early internal journey one of caution and self-awareness. This introspection turned into a growing confidence and comfort with their identity, despite the social and familial challenges they faced. By their teenage years, Duff had become aware of their attraction to men and started to confront what this meant within the societal landscape of the time. Throughout the interview, Duff recounts their prominent role in gay activism, including their involvement with various groups in 1970s New Zealand. Duff's groundbreaking decision to be the first openly gay man to stand for Parliament in New Zealand is highlighted, a testament to their commitment to advocacy and gay rights. The evolution of their activism also shines through, as they remember the founding of the National Gay Rights Coalition, which quickly grew to an impressive membership, demonstrating the reach and impact of the movement. The importance of preserving and promoting gay history becomes apparent, as Duff discusses initiatives like the Gay Teachers Union and the Rainbow Task Force, underscoring the need for continued vigour in campaigning for LGBTQ+ rights in education and beyond. The conversation touches upon the AIDS crisis in the early '80s and how it disrupted the community and activism, revealing Duff's perspective on the challenges and progress of the gay liberation movement. Further, the interview delves into moments such as the Warren Freer Bill and the Human Rights Commission's refusal to include sexual orientation as grounds for discrimination, capturing the struggles and milestones within the legislative sphere. Duff's reflections bring to light the complexities and perseverance of the LGBTQ+ community in seeking equality, leaving a lasting impression of the strides made and the challenges that persist. The full transcription of the recording begins:  My name's Robin Duff. I was, uh, born in the Hawke's Bay in Hastings in 1947 and grew up primarily there, although occasionally the family wasn't particularly well off. But, uh, we did, uh, often go for, uh, an annual holiday, most commonly to, uh, to Clifton and, um, in my father's treasured possession, his, uh, home built caravan. And, uh, I spent many of our very happy summer days. Uh, there, um, most of the time. Uh, certainly those very early childhood days. I didn't really remember much until I struck. Uh, I suppose primary school basically park Vale school in Hastings. And they were just a little to the side of Hastings in the Windsor area. And, uh uh, that's where I suppose I became a little more aware of things. And in particular, I suspect, um, um, the differences that I sometimes often felt and certainly felt them later. Can you expand on that? Yes. Um, I think that, um it was rather unusual because in those days there wasn't a great deal of publicity, and, uh, so the issue, unless there were sensational cases like the case or or something of that nature that were brought to the attention. I suppose of the media that you heard anything and even the term homosexuality was always sort of whispered in in rooms rather than actually spoken out loudly and certainly in a public context. Um, so a sort of awareness, I suppose, for me in those primary years. And I certainly remember from about the age of eight or nine becoming, I suppose, conscious that I I was a little different. Everything was, uh, doctors and nurses and, you know, husbands and wives. And so whilst I was perfectly happy to accept that, that's how you know how things worked. There seemed to be things about me that were a little different. And the excitement about I suppose males was always a little greater than than I thought was probably acceptable. Although at that time it was just a very generally blurry thing. And I was just cautious, I suppose, about what I said to people and how I acted in public. Um, even sort of those rough sports like rugby tended to, uh, to have a a little, um uh, reluctance. But I know I was experimenting with things at that time and uh, with some amusement. Remember, having painted all my toenails, uh, bright, uh, nail polish and being asked then to take my shoes and socks off and play rugby? I ended up actually playing rugby in my socks because I was too embarrassed to actually show that the nail polish. So it was sort of a growing awareness, I suppose, in those times about things. Did you have any language at that time? Um, like, words like homosexual, or I mean, did did you kind of know what it was? Uh, basically no I. I only became aware of it. Uh, I think as when I went to Hastings Boys High School and a boys school, I suppose. You know, um, same sex behaviour tended to be in a in a much more sort of experimental context. So very often I began to realise that I was much more attracted to men than women. Uh, although I got on, you know, very, very well with women and and always enjoyed their company. But it just never seemed to, you know, to flower much further than that. Um and so that sort of feeling, I think, just slowly grew. And there were things happening around me, I. I was involved in an outdoor sort of nature camp programme based in Cape Kidnappers. And so there were times when you know those kids, we it around on the nude and, you know, did the things that kids do at that sort of age. Uh, but there was always that fear that it seemed to Yeah, I think fear is the word where it seemed to, um, we're not quite the same and and different. So I hadn't put the term homosexuality onto it, uh, as a term. But just that I I like guys generally and being around guys more than I like being around women. And did you feel kind of comfortable with those feelings? Or was it something you kind of thought? Um, no, I felt actually quite comfortable about them right through. Uh, you know, the sort of first same sex sexual contact was when I was 89 at primary school. And there was sort of a regular group of us then, uh, who were sort of mildly sexually active. And I never felt no, it seemed good, and it seemed fine. And I I'd always sort of believed that. You know, uh, if it wasn't doing any particular harm to anybody and I felt OK, then there was no problems. I think that helped me a lot later because I felt a lot more confident and calm when things did come through despite the, you know, the moments when there was indeed family trauma, but by and large, it it certainly helped. The difficulty of the school was, uh, the awareness of same and the term homosexual coming through, uh, then did start to alert me. Um, and it was then that I began to realise that letting people know or identifying that I was strongly attracted to men. Uh, effectively at that time became a sort of No, no. I just, um, simply kept it away from even best friends. And nothing really further happened publicly. Uh, of course, until I got to university. But the high school, it was quite significant. And certainly with the family, it was significant to say to simply say nothing. There was a silence in this period. Uh, there were two major cases in New Zealand in the courts. One was the Parker Hume murder case in the in the late fifties. And the second one was the Charles AAR killing in Hagley Park. Did in any of those either of those cases kind of impact on you? Um, the earlier one. It didn't, uh I don't know whether that was simply because it was women, but in the fifties, I was only I'd only been sort of 8 to 12 in that sort of area. So before high school, it would have hit me. And it was at a time when I didn't put any particular associations. I do vaguely remember my parents being somewhat whispery about the the, um, the the murder case or the Yes, the murder trial. But I, I never really can honestly say it It hit or associated, but ever had, it was quite different. Uh, it hit very dramatically because I was about to go off to university. And it was the first time that even with same behaviour I, I sort of began to realise that you could actually die. Uh, could you could actually be killed. So, whilst you know, at that time and this correspondence a lot around, um, that I've subsequently read around the time was suggesting that people were becoming more, you know, inverted, commas, liberal or more accepting, or at least getting to the point of saying, you know, well, these people shouldn't be throwing. And I even remember my mother saying, You know, these people shouldn't be thrown into jail. Um, which was very, very, very encouraging, you know, to actually hear. And, uh and also because a couple of gay men clearly appeared in our family and friendship circles. And whilst no one was introduced in that light, you know, there were things about them that I thought, Oh, and that was where this increasing awareness probably over at that time, it was my 3rd, 4th, 5th form. It's now what years, 9, 10 and 11. Uh, that that increased dramatically. And it was at, I suppose that my sixth form or year 12, level that I began to start getting crushes. And that then became quite, you know, obvious that, um, you know, this was more than just, uh, you know, a part, an aspect of my personality, but that it was a rather large part. The Charles Everhart killing. Um I mean, one of the things that kind of struck me probably strikes everyone is that? Actually, all of the young men that were charged of manslaughter got off. What? What kind of impact did that have on you? That was huge. I mean, there were there were two parts to it of what I, you know, was aware of at the time, the one was that the guy didn't appear to be doing anything. He was walking through the park. Uh, he was going to visit his sick mother. I think he was down from Nelson, I think. Or Nelson somewhere like that, where he was living. And then, um, all of a sudden, you know, these guys had sort of, uh it was reported later, decided to, you know, beat up a queer or in the park and had gone in. And given that they actually, you know, professed that that's what they were going to do. Uh, it seemed absolutely staggering at the end that, uh, one could come through Maybe, you know, with some something against your name. But in the end, there was nothing. They were completely cleared because they whether there was something I think medically about him, his heart or something, they they weren't convinced that it was actually that that you know, that the assault that had caused the death that left you a very strong feeling with me that not only could you die but also anyone who did that to you, uh, didn't necessarily have to either front up or actually be held to account for what they did. So it was very, very frightening. You mentioned just before about a greater awareness of of things. And you had some family friends that potentially you were homosexual. What? What kind of things were you noticing? Uh, I think, um, the the two things and it started, I think, to arouse in me. Um, you know, I suppose, as a political sort of consciousness and awareness, Uh, because it was in that that last year I actually joined the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society. Uh, somewhat frightened of it. But as a young person, I what had come out of was just this huge, you know, uh, sparkling world word called injustice. Basically, that it just simply wasn't fair. And the second part, which is what had developed through was that everything had to be secret, that everything had to be quiet and So I became aware that, um, you know, not only that was it dangerous to say anything or disclose anything about yourself. Um, but also, um, you know, it just simply wasn't desirable for a whole range of things, whether it was your, you know, your job in the future or your education or your family. Um, and that created a an unbelievable frustration. I. I really felt, uh, very much sort of trapped and caught. And I think given that I'd felt reasonably comfort about things and things were OK and didn't seem to be any hassles in life, that with that awareness growing in the, you know, at at sort of the middle secondary school years in a single sex boys school, um, I think made it really hard for me and I. I attempted I. I tended to move towards, you know, withdrawing just a little bit. And a lot of people family didn't know lots of things about me. I just simply was too frightened to tell them. And so fear was a very large factor in those earlier years. How would one find out about something like the homosexual Law Reform Society? Because we're in a time where, you know, we don't have things like the Internet, so you can't just go online and look it up. And how did you come to? As I remember, um, the actually brought them up to the fore. And we did get the Hawke's Bay Herald Tribune as it was then. So I did do quite a bit of, you know, a lack of reading. And so this surreptitiously, I would, you know, pore over the columns and the mentioning of this association, you know, was quite regular. Uh, I think headed then by Jack Goodwin. I can't remember. Um uh, but certainly, um, I I found out later that this had developed out of the old Dorian society in Wellington and that a sort of criminal issues and legal Issues group had developed. And then they moved on to to establishing it as the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society, which was essentially, I suppose, looking at a consenting age much higher than the, you know, than the common consenting age you're looking at sort of 2021 in those years, uh, and also of this strange creature called the Wolfenden Commission. And I was fascinated about this in Britain that it occurred and increasing numbers of people just publicly saying, You know, you shouldn't be sent to jail. People should be able to live their lives and if they're not doing harm to anyone and that So you had this sort of tension between on the one hand, uh, a lot of very prominent New Zealanders saying, Well, you know, it's what's the problem? Let's get over it and get on with it. Um, But on the other hand, um, you know, like a You knew that there was a very significant number of people in a society that not only would take personal objection to you, but also could be physically dangerous and even deadly, if if that was needed. So it was incredibly tense and difficult time, but I sent away a slip, I think, from this or one of them, it might have been the New Zealand, uh, the Herald tribute I sent away, uh, a slip or a form and, uh, and registered with them. You've mentioned, uh, a couple of things about some of the attitudes that were happening in the sixties, um, towards homosexuality. What was the kind of attitude, say, from the police and from the system towards kind of homosexuals. At that time it was it was sort of very confusing because, um and it somewhat reflected the whole sort of social structure. Uh, essentially, if everything was secret and quiet and tucked away and nobody knew everything, everything was fine. But the moment in any way, he disclosed an affection towards other, another same sex person or were in circumstances where that might be implied, there could be problems. It wasn't automatic. But I remember on numbers of instances where, uh, particularly in cruising, which was probably the most common way of, you know, loitering in public places. And whilst that wasn't always, uh, focused on just sexual contact, uh, it was very often one of the only major ways, certainly, in a place like Hastings, which was incredibly quiet and very much sort of parochial. Um, it was an only way, really, of making any contact with anyone who ostensibly showed same attraction. And so, um, that's probably the area where it would have been most publicly visible to people, you know, and and and I think that is where the police most often in those times, uh, were a little more severe in terms of what their reaction was, um, it varied mostly occasionally it might well be just sending people home or whatever and scattering people. Because, of course, you didn't tend to hang around if the police arrive with their lights and sirens and stuff. Um, but on the other hand, through to, um, the use of loitering charges were the most common. Uh, at that time, we had a wonderful, uh, piece of, uh, legislation. And you could be charged without being of being with without visible means of support. I you didn't. You had to have 70 pence or, you know, uh, 10 shillings or something on you. And of course, people didn't necessarily carry around lots of money. So that was often used maybe by police to to pick people up. And, of course, the second area in there was what became much more significant later politically. And that was entrapment. Where, you know, a specific police officer in plain clothes might well go and loiter. Uh, and, uh uh, at the moment, of course, any indication was shown or any contact was made there or at any other place. Uh, the the arrest was, uh, you know, arrests were were, were used. And there are a number of instances where clearly, uh, younger gay men were used in that. And I certainly remember later of the Frank Sarge and being caught in that situation in Wellington where he was required so that he wouldn't be charged to actually, you know, proposition or act as a sort of decoy to another guy who was later arrested and charged and convicted. So it was across the gamut. There was no violence as such. The police didn't. I'd never I'd never received any reports of violence. But of course, I was still in in Hastings at that time. And the only one that I'd really seen of any significance was, of course, the, uh, the murder in Haley Park. If people were charged, What kind of, um what what kind of penalties would people face? Um, pretty pretty worrying. 7 to 14 years. Were they with the actual, uh, charges, Depending on the nature of it, the most indecent assault most commonly would be the seven. The seven year Um um, maximum sentence, I suppose. I don't know of any others who had got to that. But that's that was sort of in the popular consciousness. And an indecent assault would be a male assaulting a male, but just touching another male, and so that could be consensual. But it would still be in indecent still be consensual. It's a little bit like the underage laws that they still exist, even if you are aware and happy and positive and enthusiastic about your contact. So, yeah, um, the other was, um the other end of it was, of course, uh, you know, penetration, I suppose. Sodomy most specifically named as, uh And that had obviously a potentially a much harsher sentence than that. Uh, if it involved two people of a similar age, it seemed from what I had experienced or knew should I say, rather than experience, um, that the sentences tended to be lighter, uh, when the ages were closer. But if there was a an older man and a younger man, then, uh, often very much for the older man, the, um the penalties could be extremely severe. Um, I, I remembered with absolute horror, uh, reading, uh, at that time a, um uh, a case in where a, um a much decorated, uh, man from the the war. The 1915 war. It was in 1923 or 24 somewhere thereabouts and who had returned. And he I think he'd got military cross or was particularly distinguished. He had, uh, touched a man in a park in and and he was convicted of it. Um, and two things that were horrifying was the first is that on the two charges? He received two years of hard labour for each and to be cumulative. So he got four years for just touching a guy. Um, and the second thing was that the actual magistrate said that it would have been almost quoted. It would have been nobler for you to have died on the fields of battle than to have come home and suffered this disgrace. And I thought, you know, this. This is actually deemed to be worse than than the murder and death. It's better for you to die. And whilst that's a pretty extreme case, it was those sorts of things that suggested that many people said later on, While it's never applied and it never happens and people aren't charged, it certainly did reduce over time, especially in the liberation years. But at that stage, it was a very real threat to people and could literally ruin them and ruin their lives. You sent away your form to the law Reform Society, to to join and joining the society. What? What what did that do? All that happened was basically I just received the newsletter. They put out a regular newsletter. But it was interesting because it was the first time, um, that I'd sort of linked into anyone outside Hastings. I mean, there were no groups in Hastings, but outside Hastings and my hometown, Although I had met people in Hastings because one of the things that I also noted was that, you know, public places were an area, but there were a lot of other things going on as well. And as I also found when I came to Christchurch, that there were extensive and very carefully developed social networks where so and so knew so and so sometimes it had been from sexual contact of some form, Uh, sometimes not. But there was a sort of underground social sort of party level network level that had developed and had done so in in Hastings. And so I had a little bit of link to that in my last year at school. Um, and that was sort of private parties. I suppose you'd really call them, um, sometimes alcohol, a bit of alcohol, but by and large, it was, you know, social and also incredibly secret. You know, it was really a secret society, Um, and so that, you know, had quite an effect as well. So the law reform society, how did that fit with, um, you know, the kind of, like government attitudes of the day, Like, I mean, you've got a society here that's wanting to reform the law. How was that treated? Um, with considerable dislike and distrust, I think there was clearly very, very little enthusiasm by, um, anyone to, you know, change the law as such, uh, and particularly outside the context of of Britain, which we were still very strongly attached to, and our laws criminal laws had basically sort of been passed down, you know, And the change of the status of the country had just been sort of whole bowl handed over. And that included the indecency and and, uh um legislation related to that. So what it meant was that when we, um I suppose, um, at that time, there was a a really strong feeling that, um things were sort of liberalising a little bit and more people were saying things that were supportive, but there was still a very real fear that, um, uh, legislators could still do nasty things if they wanted to. And, um, later on, well, of course, women were exempted from legislation. They there were no penalties for women. And it was at Victoria had said such things couldn't occur between women. Uh, which is a very good belief for here and certainly for for lesbian women. Uh, but there was the fear that that well, could be in the spirit of equality that, uh, women were fearful that they could, uh, they could be included under the legislation in terms of indecency, Not, um So, uh, that sort of, I suppose copying over had advantages and I had disadvantages. But to legislators, whenever it came as an issue publicly seemed, uh, delighted to just avoid it basically, and to be as uninvolved as they possibly could. It wasn't a vote winner. So at the time. What was the plan of of the law Reform society to actually, How how were they going to change the law? What it it's seen from as I remember then, uh, it was appealing in the sense that they had They planned to come into line with the wolfenden commission. They had recommended the effectively the decriminalisation of, um, homosexuality, and certainly in in terms of, um, homosexual acts, acts and that they it appeared to be 21 was to be the consenting age I. I remember at the time and from my own experiences that this seemed still inordinately unfair. Why on earth one should be effectively five years older to do, uh, to to do something sexually, then another group who were doing almost at times, the same things. Um, but it was just the fact that they were going to use prominent people as one particular group. Uh, they were going to enlist the support of other groups, like political parties or other pressure groups with similar sort of social issue agendas. And, um and I like the fact that, you know, they were actually what's the word, I suppose, preparing themselves for campaigns and being involved with them. Uh, and one thing I certainly always admired. Even though from time to time, I disagreed somewhat with Jack Goodwin. Uh, you know, the fact that he was, you know, in those days prepared to stand up and others in the law reform Society and say, Look, this is what should happen, Given my own circumstances, I thought was incredibly brave. And, uh um, and and and and, uh, you know, meritorious. Really. And so I think, any feelings of inadequacy or, you know, concern about what they the the actual nature of what they wanted and how they were doing it were very often, um, shall we say, put to the side. Because here were people actually, uh, giving this dreadful silence. Um, you know, a kick in the butt. Basically Jack Goodwin tell me about him because he is a a large figure in in law reform. Um, but he's also a large figure in the archives as well. Um, interesting I. I had a lot more to do with, uh uh, Jack. Um, you know, in the later stages, uh, when the bigger legislative areas came in, um and, um, I I had then and I still do have considerable admiration. As I've said for him. I mean, he was one of those first, I suppose. Another of those pioneers who stood up and, you know, said things unpopular things, uh, and said them loudly and refused to stop saying them. And so that was always good and always appealing. Um, but I always remember at the 19, um, I think it was the 76 conference there just before it was set up. It was one of the I suppose one of the prods for me in terms of making negative comments about how we were doing and why we should be setting up some sort of coalition or aggregate of groups was that I remember very clearly saying that politics was the art of the possible and I. I have never forgotten that phrase because I don't believe it. Never have, and I never will, even even these days. So I, um, you know, there were areas where we had great disagreement. He wanted to see 2021 or or an age like that so that that could be established in principle and then other things, like 18 or 16 or whatever else would could or would or should flow from there. Um and so I, um I simply just didn't agree with that. And it was partly why I was involved with these other groups that we'll talk about it in a short while, but he, um a very relatively quiet, softly spoken man. Um, meticulously careful in what he said, Um, I fear sometimes over over cautious, but again, that's, you know, from a different perspective and a different time. And we were on a different uh I suppose a slightly different wavelength at the time. But to be fair, he had actually the group had actually provided, you know, one of the first opportunities for me, even though I had no personal contact there because they were in Wellington base. Uh, and I was in Hastings and a lot of their membership were spread across the country. Um, they had an ability to, and he seemed to foster an ability for people Then, like Professor MA whole range of those people involved in that grouping to, uh, gather a quite a good consensus among very prominent and knowledgeable people. Uh, and and I certainly had admired that and his ability and skill to network and keep those people together so they could pop up around the country and and and make reinforcing comments. Uh, you know, when derogatory remarks or inaccurate remarks were being made? Um, towards the end, as I said, though, the there were considerable tensions because when it came to, uh, equality issues, um, we were really quite starkly opposed there. And, uh, as I said, my belief that the, um, politics is the art of the impossible is far far has always been more attractive. So we have the wolf inquiry in the report. And in 1969 we've got Stonewall in the United States in June, What impact did Stonewall have? I guess, on you. But also on on New Zealand, Um, I, I suspect originally very little effect. I mean, it was a news item, and these drag queens had rioted. But a drag queen rioting is quite an alien concept at that time. To, you know, to a lot of, uh, being homosexual men, um, the the you know, drag was a very long and and and, uh, colourful and and fine tradition of the the sort of group. And so you were aware of drag and people in drag, and that was, uh, I suppose, a major part of the entertainment side of the, um of the group for some time. It also, interestingly, brought in a number in the sort of transgender area as well. From Carmen and those people who were working in that sort of area very often, uh, in prostitution, but not always. And, uh, she certainly acted as a sort of beacon in that area as well, because being transsexual herself. So, um, when it sort of exploded it, it did. So obviously over there, Uh, but not as much. Here, Um, it was just a little bit after that. I think that where it really, uh, where it did explode for New Zealand. And that was when, uh, as she was known then, um, now, uh, her name has been changed. Or is, um, had applied for a scholarship to, um, to an American university institute. A very, very, very intelligent woman and, um uh, and still politically very prominent, um, and had been turned down by the immigration department because she'd made it perfectly clear she was a lesbian and And, um, that was it. Um, so in the turning down of that, it certainly ignited. Um, I suppose, uh, you know, this is enough. We've had enough. Uh, it it it lits. What I felt was a feeling of, uh, incredible frustration. You know, uh, the candles of frustration throughout the country. I think they probably might have been more likely to be blow torches. Really? But anyway, uh, they were absolutely, um, uh, incensed by this she was, And Auckland University had a big campus meeting where, you know, this was discussed, and the support for her was discussed. Uh, and out of that was developed to Auckland. Gay liberation. Um, uh, I can't easily give dates for those specifically, but that was seem to be the sequence. She then, um, actually visited in in March. The of that sort of 72 the Canterbury campus. Uh, at that time, I was the, uh, student vice president, the men's vice president. And, um uh, it was from that meeting that whilst the initial disgust and and opposition to the American, you know, decision was made, uh, a group of us sort of hovered behind, I suppose to say, Look, you know, OK, this is important, and we'll deal with this, but we've got a hell of a lot of things here to do in in New Zealand. And maybe this is going to afford the opportunity to bring, you know, more people in a more politically like minded way together. And I think, uh, that's effectively what happened in terms of developing into the 70 you know, two and our establishment of gay liberation Christchurch as it was, uh, we came there, and then Wellington came from there, but always remembering I'd arrived in 66. Uh, so I was sort of towards the end of my academic career, and I had, um uh uh by the end, over four years, it took I majored in sociology and English, Um, and so most likely, I was destined towards education or teaching. Although my parents wanted me to be a lawyer, but, um, teaching was the one most likely to capture it. But before then, up until, um, certainly up until Nau's explosion onto the scene. Um, there were a number of, um, of incidents that occurred in Christchurch itself as well. Uh um, a, uh an Italian drag queen had been, um, deported back to Sicily at one stage. Always referred to him as mother, uh, and then again, with these increasing and just quietly fermenting sort of feelings of frustration and, uh, and and increasing amount of anger about what was actually happening because homosexual law reform sort of stood there and was part of the debate about the age. But it was, you know, in terms of, you know, drag queens, and, um and and, uh, even the comments. I remember a commissioner in Christchurch saying that they refused to have the, um, the city overrun by lots of pon pussyfoots and perverts. It was a wonderful here, um, headline in the in the Christchurch Press. And that wasn't an uncommon feeling. Uh, and as I say, the fact that it came from the, you know, the the the the chief guy in Christchurch suggested that, uh um, those sort of attitudes, those conservative attitudes were pretty strongly still there. So it had again very much like Hastings that had on the one hand, you know, that sort of public scene, uh, public places cruising. Um, but on the other side, it had lots of um, social, much more extensive social networks And also, interestingly, something that had happened in Auckland and Wellington, too. And that was the development of the Dorian Societies. And they were the sort of early what were beautifully named gentlemen's clubs. Um, and they were not remotely or specifically identified, of course, as being same sex or or anything to do with homosexuality. But they were all men's clubs. And, of course, they they also provided a sort of social semi commercial function a little bit like, I suppose, working men's clubs these days. Although I don't want to make quite the same comparisons there. Um, but there was that that ability to, um as it were, use those sorts of groups around. And as we moved around socially, a number of them were university students. Uh, you know, Lindsey Taylor, Uh, Ray Farley. A number of us together. And what we did, of course, is we got to know each other better. It became quite a good skeleton lying there for when, uh, who is sort of, um, you know, more, uh, climactic sort of burst came through. And so there was almost a sort of an organisation waiting to actually happen there. It wasn't just sort of cobbled together in a few weeks or a few months, there had been a long, steady build up of what was going on in the, you know, and certainly in Canterbury that I can talk about more specifically. And when she was told she couldn't go to the U SI mean she wasn't told in a kind of polite way, was she? Well, can you recall the words that they used to? No, I can't. But, um um, it's It's Americans have always been It seems, Rather said the the term at the moment that they've been or they've been using up until very recently on their immigration data was that you were guilty of moral turpitude. I don't know whether most people going into America would even understand what the term moral turpitude meant. But in those days, of course, any sexual depravity, uh, any sexual deviance, which is probably the best word that they would use, uh was prohibited. And until very recently, um, it's only was with the advent of the sort of AIDS crisis and where people had to sort of say, Well, yes, I'm coming to an AIDS conference. And yes, I am, actually, by the way, I am homosexual. I am gay. Um, that finally, for lots of the conferences, who had to say, Well, how can we come to have conferences in America if if people not going to be let through, you know, immigration. And so it was very much later on that America actually started to come to terms with those immigration things. And, of course, they thought this would be spread, you know, by invasions of people coming from other countries with HIV and passing it on to their locals. Um, another thing, which, of course, is un unproven and largely untrue. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but there was nothing of the epidemic that they were considering it to be. So those sort of frustrated build up, uh, hovering there was, uh um was not made, uh, uh, less explosive by talking about lesbians and social deviants and so on. Uh, for many of us, when not only got to the equality provisions in our heads, but also, you know, and much of our activities in our daily lives one of the really interesting things that is happening nowadays in New Zealand is. We've got the marriage Equality Amendment Bill going through Parliament at the moment when you go to marches or, um, protests for this, there is very much a lot of young energy there. And I'm wondering, was that the same back in the early seventies, where, like like you and Lindsay formed the, um, Students Association, activist society, the gay activist society? I mean, was that where the energy was coming from? Very, very much so in a younger group. Um, but, uh, we also need to be careful not to remember that as younger people, we are probably less nervous about being public. So there were still quite a group of older people there who had worked in various capacities in various ways. Uh, sometimes members of the homosexual law reform sometimes not, uh, who were extremely helpful, uh, dedicated. Whatever. But they also may have been married. Uh, or they might be high up in their church or in a high position in there. So very often they had, uh what shall I say or felt? They had a social stake that could be more seriously jeopardised if they publicly did something and so very often as those of us who are younger. Uh, we're not so quite so worried about those, you know, the sort of polite trappings of, of, of a correct society. And so we were more able to do it. And therefore, I suspect lots of our records and things come through as seeing us doing more things. But I certainly think we need just to be careful to remember that there were a lot of those people there. Same with the women. They're not often often mentioned. And later on, when they mentioned the gay rights Coalition, uh, you know, it was actually headed by a woman at the start, very often reasons I'd mentioned earlier about worrying that they were going to be criminalised as well. They very often worked in quietly in the background, doing amazing work and being out there on the demonstrations and so on, but just nervous that they, too, may well jeopardise their position if they were too vocal. But by and large, the energy came from younger people, and more specifically, I suppose, students. And what were you thinking about in terms of, you know, kind of what kind of events and stuff did you organise What? What What was the organisation there for? Um, I think initially it was a a way of, uh, gathering networks or or a network of people together. So in its very early times, it became primarily a support network where people could contact it and be involved without, um, you know, without feeling threatened, uh, without feeling that they even had to disclose themselves publicly for it. There was a misconception that if you were involved in gay liberation now, everyone knew that wasn't in fact, true at all. But what had very often happened, uh, in in gay communities was that the social functions were very often very closely involved with the sexual side of it as well in the party and and so on. And that was great. There was no problem with that, but very often, if you contacted yourself into these groups, there was also a very strong expectation that you, too, would also be involved in, you know, in the partying and the and the sexual activity and so on. And for many of us, and I sort of included myself, but it certainly included a lot of other people. Uh, who felt that that shouldn't really be a precondition for being involved in having contact. And so we were approached into the early liberation days as we were setting up by people who were totally isolated and totally shut off. And, uh, therefore, it sort of gave an opportunity on that side to get, um, support into the community. The second side, The other side, though, was definitely the political. And that was, I suppose, in those days, uh, much more. What shall I say? Tamed down than it became. Later, it became critical to have an awareness and an acceptance of sexual reality as such, um, simply getting rid of the silence, I think was the primary objective. And to say, Look, we're here where queer is one of the statements would say we're here, We're queer. Get over it. You know, and and sorry, we're not actually now going away. And so that because, of course later became tremendously challenging in a lot more ways, particularly to the politicians. And some interesting things have developed from there. But out of that was, um, yeah, just the sort of two arms. Basically, I suppose the welfare, social support and on the other side was the beginnings, the glimmerings of, um, getting rid of the veil of silence and secrecy and actually starting to work towards the two primary functions. And that was the equality and and acceptance. The Gay Liberation Front started in Christchurch in 72. Was that the first that came after the Auckland one, And then Wellington followed after that. Well, why do you think it was important to have these as regional organisations rather than like a national thing at that stage? Because, um, there was a very, very, uh what should we say? Um, determined sort of regional feeling. I think in places, um, by nature of the the the the cities, they were sort of slightly different in their focus, and and Auckland was seen as a much big brighter, you know, positive. Uh, a big city. More like Sydney. Uh, whereas Christchurch was, like a lot more conservative city underneath, I would say very radical and quite, you know, uh, contentious things. But by and large, its population was very well, Church of England, I suppose, Um, originally a church city, a settlement and very much remaining in that, whereas, of course, Wellington is was much more of the political centre in capital, so they were very often, I think, developing different ways for different needs. But, um, in each of them they tended to to develop a little differently. And it's been interesting over the time because I've always had felt that Auckland was actually much less political, um, than, um than it thought it was or wanted to be, um, and it it was much more involved in setting up the sort of social groups and social situations than it was in the hard political. They were still there and still doing it, but not to the same. Whereas I've always felt uh, maybe a little bit, unfortunately, that Canterbury was a lot more sort of political lynch increasingly towards the political, Uh, and Wellington eventually did the same thing. It, uh, it moved very strongly towards the sort of I suppose representations and, uh um and work with sort of parliamentary CIR, uh, circles. And very often it did work a little more closely with the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society and other organisations, uh, gay radio and other things as well, so it often acted. I think a lot more as an umbrella and did things quite effectively with it. Was it not just automatically Ari criticism, but just that Each seemed to focus a little bit more. And I think there was a feeling of, you know, we know what we're doing here. We don't need someone to come up from the South Island to tell Auckland is what to do. I think feelings are probably still very much ingrained in the national psyche. And likewise, Auckland is going to Wellington or anyone anywhere else. So it was a A slightly and unfortunately, I think, And as I said later, um, a sort of somewhat jealous parochialism at worst. Um, but a good network developer on its better side, Could the gay liberation front, uh, advertise for members, Could it? I mean, was it available? Were you able to advertise in newspapers and on radio and stuff? Um, sadly not. And that that was one of the the major, you know, I suppose rallying points for many of the groups. Um, even the word homosexual was looked on with considerable, um, horror by, uh, the newspaper and media. And in fact, in the earlier stages, the word gay was always seen in a very derogatory manner. In fact, a press up until some years ago sort of refused to use the term gay at all and would only, uh, only mention, um, you know, homosexuals as such, uh, despite the feelings of an adequacy of of the term and there were and still are raging debates over the term gay or queer or other. You know, other names, I suppose. Um, but the initial worries with the liberation groups that the homosexual as such was a very sort of limiting sort of almost biological term, Uh, and that we were talking about a diverse range of sexualities and, you know, in keeping with Kinsey and all the other reports that had said, you know, there's a whole range of sexual, uh, identities and and and behaviours within the group, um, that, uh, with that sort of range, uh, we simply couldn't put one limited focus, which might be on the five or 10 or 15% who were exclusively, uh, same sex oriented. And so, um, very big debates have developed over that, and I think that's that continues today. The term queer, of course, is coming in now. Um, and in those days, it was a a term that men recoil from, you know, particularly gay men recoil from II. I feel quite comfortable with it. Uh, and that's only because I see it as not as easily identifying any specific or particular GE, you know, gender or or same sex. Um uh, behaviour. Even gay, to an extent, is very much, um, you know, identified with men. Uh, whereas queer is much more comfortable and that why is it But I I have friends and older friends who just absolutely are horrified by the use of that term. Because, of course, originally, it was one of those, like, faggot and and and and some others like that who were just seen as being the most offensive things that you could say about a AAA homosexual man. So you couldn't actually kind of advertise in newspapers or anything like that. Correct. Uh, and or you had to have permission, uh, to do it. And we pushed pretty hard. For example, the personal columns were the ones with the were the most difficult. Um, that was the column that we were most encouraged to use, but It tended to be a much more sort of open, you know, column than it was for talking about, uh, you know, social for lesbians and gays. And very often, uh, on several occasions we had media people in the advertising side and editorial side saying that, you know, this was encouraging things that were potentially illegal in New Zealand. So we had a whole range of things. Uh, and of course, you know, Children might read it there. You know, just a plethora of arguments as to why this shouldn't happen. Um, but it's been it had been a slow, sort of breaking down process. Uh, and it was becoming increasingly difficult with the newsworthy items to, um, What's the word to sort of Shrug away the fact that this these terms were inappropriate or or of no advantage. One of the things that was interesting, though, is that I also think it tended to drive people to much more. What should we say? Extreme ways of actually presenting information. Um, one of the early things that happened with, uh, in, uh, with Lindsay Taylor. Was he he painted did a paint up on the star building in in Christchurch, just as the group, um, it was being set up, you know, just gay rights or something. I forget what it was, but he got caught. He was arrested. Um, and there was a huge, um, just it's the biggest one of the biggest sort of gay liberation movements. At that time, there were about 80 people attended the next meeting. Um, and they were, you know, generally mortified that, you know, he should have the cheek, the arrogance or whatever to go out and, you know, commit an act like this, um, in in public and one that sort of brought homosexuals and inverted commas and and, you know, and under the the course of the law and be seen to be criminals, criminal behaviour was seen in terms of what they did to have it about the people involved was was another. And despite the fact that, you know, many of us argued that, you know, despite the the the I Suppose the paint ups across the collective minds of of gay men and women over centuries, where if you go, you know, John loves Sandra or, you know, Mark loves Jill. Uh, everything from carved into bus stops, uh, to written on desks. There seemed to be no sort of appreciation that, um, you know, um, that perhaps it wasn't actually as serious as they felt and that simply, you know, damaging some property was nothing to the damage that men occasioned. You know, for men and young men and women over many centuries, uh, who've, by and large, committed suicide or been killed, imprisoned or whatever. Um, they were still very much upset about this whole idea of bringing, uh, what do we say? Attention, I suppose, to them. And it also made it really hard for a lot of older, more socially oriented, Um uh, gay men because they felt that their comfortable social networks were now coming under some, you know, identification, some sort of threat. And that, um that sort of disrupted this nice pattern of, you know, finding a new person and bringing them into the social scene and getting them integrated in that scene. And maybe, you know, with lovers and so on, and and and moving through older until you start holding your own parties with that sort of continuity about it, which was also echoed in the Dorian societies as well. And they, of course, couldn't deal with scandal or or any public things because the wife might say, Well, this Dorian society, you know that you go to this gentleman's club. I understand. You know, that, uh, those deviant men go there. So there were sorts of questions and implications in it that, uh, many of them didn't want. So, uh, it seemed a shame that we had to publicise things very often, Um, by, uh, as it were focusing on negative things rather than you know what we considered the much less harmful things. Like the personal columns in the newspaper. So just briefly looking at the Dorian Society that was never seen as, uh, an outwardly homosexual club. Absolutely not. No, uh, it was a gentleman's club that was all needed to be said it was a club for gentlemen. Uh, anything else? I mean, fairly, Obviously other things happened, but, uh, and that, of course, was a difficulty, too, in terms of potential police raids and so on. So they had to be extremely careful for that reason. The legal reason, but certainly because a significant number of the members were, you know, either married or, as I say in prominent positions or whatever. And so this was, um, just sort of, I suppose, an oasis, a sort of sexual oasis for them to be able to to move to with the beginnings of the gay liberation front. How easy was it to get members involved then if if people didn't necessarily want to kind of rock the boat, how easy was it to get new people? Um, it was difficult to to get, uh, people involved and those particularly who wanted to be publicly identified. There was no difficulty for those who were completely shut off and isolated or had been subjected to assaults or blackmail or whatever. Because their I suppose their mind space had been pushed to a point where, you know, many of them would say, Well, it couldn't have really got any worse. And there were only a few things you could contemplate that would get rid of it. So this was at least a a better alternative to those. And, of course, then coming in and meeting those of of your own and talking about, uh, situations you had been in where you realise other people have been in those situations gave often the support and the continuity. Uh, that was really, really very, very valuable to them. But the act of aside was difficult, and it very often crept up on you. Um, I I was myself particularly nervous because in those early years in the 72 um, I was sort of starting at university. My parents were aware, but they had always said, Look, you know, don't you know, don't let anyone know. Basically, uh, I never really answered that with either mum or Dad in the time except that I did say, if I ever appeared and was going to appear on television, I would ring them up and warn them so that Dad wouldn't spill his coffee while he was looking over the top of his newspaper at the television, uh, to see me appearing there, which happened at, uh, you know, from time to time. But you were sort of almost cast into these things. So a lot of people you know, a lot of young would say, Oh, gee, that's so brave. And, you know, how did you do it? And you know all that abuse that you had to suffer that was partly true, and that was there. But I you know, I remember a small incident where Lindsay and I, we had to get a a post box for Gay Liberation Front Christchurch and I stood in the old United Services Hotel there by what was the, uh, the post office area? One wet, cold, bloody rain sodden, um, Christchurch night while we debated who was going to go in and actually ask to identify a gay liberation front Christchurch box. And we had a hell of a time. And finally, you know, Lindsay threw his hands in the air and said, Look, I'll go, I'll do it. So off he stormed me, Feeling greatly relieved. And that was just talking to, you know, just a person over the other side of the counter. Uh, he went in and got it sorted, came back, had the key, everything sorted. Great. I was so admiring of him for having actually done that. And it wasn't till about 10 or 12 years later when I became a secretary of the Gay Liberation for a short period and took the key. I got the bill one day and it was actually addressed to Mr Lindsay Taylor of box 17 17. So just the fear of actually disclosing yourself, even to those of us who were, you know, reasonably comfortable and reasonably out was was something of a daunting feature. And I think, um, those sort of striding to the the forefront, waving placards and batons and so on, and that really militant thing is not really quite the picture It tended to be a lot of people pushing vigorously behind. And in the end, yes, you did put your hand up because you thought, Well, look, what we've had in the past can't be the future can't be worse. So So let's go to it. And very often that's how it how it came by and the degree of action as a sort of final comment. I suppose in your activity involvement very much depended on to the extent that you'd either been disadvantaged or pushed or, you know, received something negative in your past or was really isolated. So the worse off you'd been before you came into the group very often did mirror something of the degree of intensity on the other side. When you actually came up and did the protesting or or, uh, advocate work. Soon after the Stonewall in the US, they started having the pride marches and having pride events. When did that kind of visible show of pride start happening in New Zealand? Um, I think much of that started in the sort of mid to late seventies. Um, it's really interesting because, you know, lots of parallels are made between America and what happened there. And yet, personally, I, um um I don't think it was actually as close as all that we tended to, you know, Apart from the initial sort of explosions and and the establishment of the groups, the, uh, gay liberation groups, as I understood them in New Zealand, did not, um, you know, greatly lean upon the American, you know, the American models. Um and of course, over there they were a lot more out a lot more strident because they had much longer histories, too, in places of, uh, you know, where they've sort of gathered. And San Francisco and and and in New York itself, um, they had much longer histories of having developed those networks and groups and other organisations. Some of their, you know, their gay organisations and lesbian organisations have been established 50 or 60 years Um uh prior to the establishment of the gay liberation group after stonewall And so, um, we didn't seem to have as as as much of that, but I think there was an increasing, I suppose anger and um a preparedness to set up some national conferences which started in 72. 73. And it was the national gay liberation conferences that brought, uh, a lot of, uh uh you know, a lot more people and active people together. Uh, coupled with that, uh, Australia also became quite an infant. They had annual conferences, too, and I certainly and a number of others would regularly go over to theirs in Sydney or Melbourne, most commonly Sydney or Melbourne. I think there was one in Brisbane, uh, at one stage. But, uh, they would also have some of their, uh, activists coming across to here. So if there was influence in terms of what was happening in the development of social services and those things, I think probably we had more rub off in the Australian context that we had here and in many instances we just simply forged ahead and did it. You know, getting a telephone was a bit tricky at the beginning, Certainly the advertising of a telephone number, uh, for what was scaling in Christchurch, um, and befriend and those sorts of cell groups that were starting. But, um, once they were established, and then then the resistance to using the term gay became, you know, Dr dramatically decreased. See, it seems from you know, my perspective here in 2013, the fact of actually just getting a phone. It seems such a kind of simple thing, but absolutely bizarre that it should be like that. And, uh, you know, just the simplest things you could not take for granted. Um, you know, just, uh and in fact, most things through, even things like visits to schools. You just assume that, you know, in the liberal studies programmes or what? That would be fine. And yet, through the country, there were often huge battles of schools not wishing to have, you know, these people anywhere near schools, Uh, and still happening today. I mean, it it it hasn't changed. There are a lot of good things that have changed, and people say Oh, you know, it's great. All these changes and things are better now. And you can have civil unions and, um, looking towards marriages as well. And yet when you say to them, well, you know, try walking down Lampton qua holding hands, uh, in the same sex situation or a few of you and just see what the reaction is. And and at times, certainly the youngsters is not good at all. And, you know, we have youngsters not only committing suicide, of course, but, um, you know, uh, being seriously assaulted and and killed in in Wellington, Um, a number of, uh, occasions that suggest that it's not as good as that. So, yeah, in those days, getting a phone and a phone number was almost feeling a little bit like World War three. But what it did do is I think those little things actually illustrated to people about how little one actually had and in particular how little, um, not power, but little influence and I. I would often think in terms of what Jack Goodman and the Law Reform group were doing of saying, Well, if we can't get a phone, you know, getting the legislative change. Great. And maybe that's the pincer movement that's getting the legislative change and working back down to attitudes or working from attitudes and up to the legislative. Uh, it seemed like a huge distance between them. What was the relationship between, like the Law Reform Society and the Gay Liberation Front? Uh, it was very, um Well, it varied. Uh, and I think in the regional areas, it was probably a little tense and there wasn't a lot of contact. There was no regional organisations of the law reform because of the design. They wanted it based in Wellington. Uh, notable people and so on. Uh, so it was gay Liberation Wellington that had the the the most contact. And it was obviously, you know, a a little tense because whilst, um um, homosexual law reform, uh, wanted, you know, effectively that reform gay liberation had always started and continued and said that it was bottom line was equality, and that was clearly at some stage, I mean, all of us, you know, when we we talked about it, realised that eventually the writing was on the wall and that there was going to be a very clear difference when it got to a legislative battle, as it as it later did. Um and so, um so yes, Uh, what should we say? A reserved cooperation. You know, they're a bit reserved, a bit just careful with each other, but they would help and assist and support, and particularly in a lot of areas, like welfare and things where it didn't need any political, necessarily any political position to be in to to, uh, to to cooperate or assist with another organisation. Because, of course, there were more than just the, uh, the just the homosexual law reform group. At that time, a number of groups were starting, you know, in radio and and other areas as well. So, um, Wellington was the focus for that. Can you give me an idea of the size of the kind of gay liberation front in Christchurch at that time? Uh, in in the seventies, at the beginning, I remember the first few years we would roughly have about, uh, probably about 40 to 50. Um, you know, paper members of actual meetings or 10. 15 people, sometimes bigger. If a big issue came up, then there would be more. There But most commonly, they weren't big meetings. They were generally more activist meetings. Um, and the groups like, uh, you know, the welfare groups associated, uh, very often didn't have such meetings. They simply had a welfare programme or a telephone contact. And so that work was done when many of us went out, say to to to do training in terms of telephone stuff and telephone counselling and support work. Uh, in those very early days, uh, there was plenty to learn and people to get involved. So, yes, it was, um um it was sort of difficult. It also illustrated rather strangely that, um, you basically had to learn everything from scratch. Um, and like all the techniques from, you know, typing your own newsletters, I type the first gay liberation newsletter on the, uh, University of Canterbury Students Association's typewriter and the first copy of And so you begged, borrowed and sometimes stole to to get stuff and equipment through. And that was, uh that was also a part. I suppose of that earlier challenge. You you mentioned going to some of the national conferences. Can you describe for me what it was like the first time you went to a gay lesbian Transgender national conference? Yeah, uh, overpowering, just totally overpowering. And it always lead me sort of a bit teary. Um, you know, remembering back to those feelings, because I'm sure you know those feelings for a lot of young, um, queer women and and men still exist of going to, um I suppose it's going to somewhere where you realise that it's actually all be a lie right through a very carefully and cunningly engineered lie that homosexuals were horrible and nasty and, you know, and and basically, you know, you wouldn't certainly wouldn't want your son to marry one, and, um, that the the least you had to do with them, the better that they were subversive, that they were going to bring down civilization. All those all those tired old things we hear and still do. Um, and even in the recent debates, you still you know, you still hear them. And I, um, I remember that, um uh, as I came out, flew out of, uh of London in the early nineties, and they were debating the age of consent, dropping from 18 to 16, and I was reading through this and I thought, like, we've had nearly 10, 15 years of this change and absolutely nothing of all the claimed abuses. You know, that plane loads of, you know, homosexuals from America were going to be brought in to interfere with our young people on the streets. All those sorts of absurd claims, nothing had happened. And so going to say, like a conference on that where all of a sudden it just knocks away systematically, a whole series of almost sort of, well, popular beliefs. I suppose, um, is just, uh, totally overpowering and incredibly uplifting. It also became apparent. You know, the first one is, I suppose, stunned. What would I say? Stunned excitement. Strange words to put together. But, um, by the time we went in 73 I think it was to our first Sydney one, which, of course, had about 100 100 and 50 people. Uh, it was just mind blowing because, um, not only were these people there, there obviously wasn't one or two in the world. Uh, and, um, sort of brought a memory of, uh uh when the National Gay Rights Coalition was putting out advertisements. Uh, we put in a national advertisement. And one of the letters that came back came from the where a guy said he had. He was had been living there 40 years because he believed he was the only one in the world of this sort and that therefore, the best thing he can do is isolate himself away and the U. And I thought, that's so extreme and almost at a point of not being able to believe it, but understanding that it probably is. So when you come out and you see hundreds of people there not only gathered for a particular purpose but just, you know, enjoying themselves, laughing, doing all those things that humans do. Uh, it really is, uh, joyfully overwhelming. It was great. And it gave me a huge amount of the What shall I say? The personal energy, uh, that brought me to decide. Uh, I will fight, you know, for the rest of my life to make sure these things don't happen and that we get a just and decent society. There's fighting in a whole different variety of ways, isn't there? Like I mean, there's fighting in terms of political things, and then actually kind of street actions, but also, you were quite involved in the kind of social and support side of things in Christchurch. Can you tell me about some of the groups that that you worked with and formed? Um, yes, Uh, we very often, Um, at the very beginning, we had a group, which was, like, a sort of befriend a gay friend group where we, uh And it stemmed very often from the phone. Um, uh, you know, from the phone contact with people as we made our way through and and got some sort of recognition, it wasn't always done in newspapers, you know, there were other, you know, uh, church, magazines and all sorts of other supportive groups were able to publicise numbers and and and get the message out so that people were getting in touch with us. Um, and very often it was It was sometimes difficult because it had never happened before. So being able to ring in and talk to someone about a situation like this apart from often being incredibly time intensive, you know, when somebody's telling you their life story and it's, you know, lurches from trauma to trauma is incredibly exhausting and and also extremely difficult because many, uh, men and women were sort of locked into very much that really self oppressed thing of, you know, clearly I'm horrible, and I'm awful. And, you know, um, maybe the best thing is that I taught myself and, you know, disappear, and it would make the world a better and easier place. And so it was really hard, because to move people from that, you know, does take quite a lot. Um, and so they tended to link into, like, sort of small social groups and cells where, you know, people came along and basically talked about their lives and in group sessions. And, uh, uh was in, you know, incredibly supportive for them. There was another group, though, of course. Pretty, obviously that saw Maybe this was a you know, like a sort of dating agency. And very often, uh, into the, um what into the eighties nineties? Uh, men were most often men. Men were ringing really to sort of make sexual contacts and arrangements with people. And that was quite challenging because, you know, you can understand it when you knew what was happening, but it was really difficult and I. I know myself. I reduced my sort of telephone counselling, telephone support work after sort of 20 years or so. It would be in the nineties, because at that stage we were then starting to get a lot of just simply older guys who were married or in different circumstances. That meant they couldn't make the social or, you know, contact. And therefore they wanted the bit on the side, as it were, which was pretty distressing. I mean, not only for them and for us, but also obviously, for the person who was the bit on the side. So those groups, uh, once they came through the contact on the phone, um, most commonly went over into, uh, you know, a befriending group or a social club. And then, as they felt comfortable, they might come on into, you know, the bigger group, the Liberation group meetings were usually monthly, uh, usually at a person's house. And they were the ones that, um, you know, sort of, I suppose, power with the powerhouse for the for the organisation. Um, the second area, though, which was another big area apart from just that personal social side was of course, I became more involved, in fact, very early from the the gay teachers union, which was set up in the, uh, in the mid seventies, um, as a way of trying to gather particular groups of people together. Um, and I realised when I went into teaching, it wasn't going to be easy. And it wasn't at times, um although I've never regretted that. But, um, the the sort of idea of, you know, the sort of basically men, particularly gay men, are sort of, you know, walking predators Or, you know, predators basically on wheels and child molesters was pretty strong in the culture and still very often is, um And so despite the fact that, you know, we know that that's sort of rubbish. Um, it's very much there. And so developing protective groups through my involvement at the time, of course, was with the University of Canterbury Students Association when I was president and uh, sort of vice presidents over about three years in the seventies when we set up the other group, uh, and following on into the Post-primary Teachers Association and, uh, these years through to the presidency over the last two or three years, Uh, been times when developing those sort of support groups within teaching, but also moving out and looking more directly at those big issues like homophobia and, uh, in schools where everyone is to an extent responsible and staff can do as much as students things to be helpful. Um, has been just one of those developments from initially personal support through to a much wider. I suppose we'd call it community support, or at least a recognition that there are problems and that if we all try, we can all do something about it and make a lot of people's lives a dam site better and more profitable for them. Establishing a group, um, of of gay teachers in in the mid seventies. And again this is when it's still illegal in New Zealand. Um, did that open you up to any kind of, um, discrimination or, I mean, it seems quite a a very brave thing to be doing. Yes, Um, it's it's it's interesting because you you're quite right. There was the potential for, um, I mean for criminal behaviour where you are convicted in a court. And of course, that happens. The consequences in teaching are are pretty obvious. Uh, but there are other provisions that were there in the education sector which said that, you know, being a fit and proper person, um, to to appear before young people and appropriate was another one. And it didn't very easily define what that meant either. You know what? What did you have to be guilty of doing to prove that you are not a fit and proper person? Uh, and of course, any suggestions of inappropriate activity, whether it's just with other people, not just students, but, um meant that, um, you know, dereg administration was highly likely that you would not just, you know, pay the price in terms of any potential legal action or loss, but you'd certainly pay the price in terms of your job. And it was one of the things that always acted as a very great fear. Uh, for me, uh, being sort of out. As things came out, it came out very, very slowly. And so there's an interesting period in my life from when I went teaching, which was in 75 which was a secondary school. I had a training year in 74 and I was still a vice president of the, um, students Association, that when I went out into a into the school for 70 Yeah, 75 76 and part of 77. Um, I was actually lay reasonably quiet. I decided as a course of action that I didn't really want to provoke anything at this stage being a beginning teacher and because I needed, uh, two years of teaching to become registered, and if anything happened in there, it could make things a lot more difficult. So 75 and 76 were really quite critical in their own way, though they brought up a huge frustration which came out in terms of the coalition I mentioned in a minute. But, um, it left me, you know, feeling. I wanted to do things and get on with things, But I had to be careful how I did it, and I went about it. So there was that and, um, people at my school, my work and that were aware they they knew the situation. And, of course, I've been out for some some years anyway. And when I arrived there in 75 you know, I was in my mid twenties. So, um, they were aware and also partnered or just coming to the end of a a sort of seven year relationship there with the guy. So most people were aware that was not hidden. It was, you know, anyone could see that had eyes as we accompanied each other to things, um, and even to, you know, some quite big things. I remember 73. I went down to Impulse 73 which was a huge gathering of about 7000, uh, teenagers in Dunedin run by a minister there in the town, the town hall, where I think I was probably maybe one of the first people to actually stand in front of them and spend 20 minutes telling them what it was like to be gay. Uh, one of the most terrifying, uh, in that time, one of the most terrifying things that I've actually done. Um, but a huge response. And we then you had to go down into a little foyer area where there would be a second forum. And of course, we found I found significant numbers of, you know, obviously gay men coming down there. Uh, more difficult, because, of course, It's a younger group. That was up to about 20 age from about 14 to 20. Um, but those sorts of things also became dangerous in the job area because whilst you know, I let people know and newspapers, uh, recorded it and made comment. Uh, I just simply said to myself, I don't want anything to be challenging in these couple of years. And so I I stood back a little, including some of the one of the, you know, the law law campaigns. Um, but, uh, you know, if I was required to speak, say something. No problem. But I just was careful and also warned, Used to warn mum and Dad a little bit more frequently at that time that I might be appearing on the television. Um, so the personal side, in terms of challenge and things students were generally very, very good in those years. Uh, even though many were obviously aware it was really a sort of don't ask, don't tell sort of policy. Now I think about it. Um, the people said something. Well, yeah, OK, I'd say something, but unless, uh, you know, it was actually asked or it came into the conversation. Somehow I would simply say nothing. And so the cloak of silence was used, uh, somewhat ashamedly, um, at that sort of period, too. So and I had no major incidents. Later, as I became more visible, I became more of a target for the what should we say? Untrue accusations. And they became a lot harder to deal with. But, uh, I was a little bit more prepared by then. Just take me back a wee bit and talk about, um, speaking at the impulse. Uh, yeah, And tell me, um, you know what? Describe to me what you actually said and and and how it was received. It's interesting. You say that because a lot of times, the things I can't actually remember what I said. But that one, I thought, um, I mean, the first thing you do when you're going to speak to is what's the audience and what's the purpose and what you're doing? It was being televised. TV One was doing the whole thing. And so there were a whole series of group NATO was being had a spokesperson there. Women's liberation, uh, had a 15 minute slot. You basically had a 15 minute slot in the main auditorium on the stage was surrounded by bands and things, and then they'd have another slot and then another slot, and this ran from about 10 in the morning till about eight at night. Um, and it was complicated. But for me, because my partner Neville at the time, um, we were both going down to this and they said, Yeah, that was fine. It's, um I think it was a Presbyterian or Anglican Church type Youth festival Guy Stevens down there who was magnificent and had run these as an ongoing series over some years, Um, and never had to come off his motorbike because he was going to get his clothes for the weekend. And so he broke his leg. So he had all these traumas of me getting down there to it. So I was feeling pretty pretty fragile by the time I got there. And I thought, you know, the thing is I can't do is burst into tears of the television and the stage, So I thought, Well, you know, what do I do? I've got you know, this 3, 3. 5 1000 teenagers. And so I thought Well, all I'll do is I'll hit the I'll play them. You know what? What? How would you feel if, um and, um and so it's I started by just I remember because I actually wore these incredibly flared pants at the time, which is probably not a little bit too much like the part. Really. Um, but, um, the centre stage thing was based on, uh, and my comment was, you know, uh, how would it feel? Was the question I posed to them. And, of course, they knew what it was about, but they didn't know anything else. My name was there, and the fact that I was a canter students president, um, those things were known to them in the sort of, I suppose, pre meeting pre forum stuff. Um, but the place just went deeply silent. It was just like I could literally have heard pins drop, and I thought, Oh, dear. And so, um, I then just sort of paralleled it around and said, if you, um you know, how would you feel if to a series of things from, uh, you know, intensely affectionate to someone, Uh, and you wanted to take them to the dance, your senior dance. Uh, if you're heterosexual, you'd go, Uh, if you're homosexual and your partner was the same sex, how would you feel? And so I went through about five or six of them, and it was just a deadly sign. It was just astounding and then just went on to talk a little bit about These are the sorts of feelings. So I took it at an entirely personal level, um, to try and just I thought the only way you can do it is there's no you standing up and saying, Look, there are 10% of the population and Kinsey said this. And you know, these are just not the youngsters. They they've got to either have a gut reaction, a feeling or a scar. It's all over. You know, they'll say, Oh, it was a nice speaker or it was a bloody horrible or whatever else. Um, and that would be the feeling. And so the report later, as I say, it was 15 minutes. It's not very long when you're actually standing up there. Um, but I found it overwhelmingly satisfying. At the end. A lot of people came up and said Oh, it was great. And it was nice to hear and so on. And these were just generally supporting people because they said we and I said to them, You know what? You know what sort of work did it, and they said I was just being actually challenged to think about it and say in your life, if you're in this position, uh, how you would actually feel And that's a pretty, you know, traditional type of approach for speaking and speakers and all sorts of situations. So there's nothing particularly unique about it. But in that one, you know, constantly, people would say, Oh, you know, I never actually thought what it would be like if I felt really strongly to someone of my own sex because I've never felt like that. And then all of a sudden, there were a whole range of things I couldn't do because of it. You know that I find it frustrating and I get pissed off and all the other things that go with it. And so I felt that that sort of, you know, did actually help it. And then a number turned up later, and they actually eventually set to set up a, um um, gay equality. So, society, which was the first Dunedin group that they sort of got going there. And so that, uh, worked quite, uh, quite well for some years. One of the other groups that that was formed in the mid seventies was, um, the campaign for homosexual equality. How did that differ from something like gay Liberation Front? Yeah. Uh, that was interesting. There was had always been a a suggestion that gay liberation was basically two or three people, uh, with 25 groups and one post box. So, in other words, there was like, um uh, a lot of covering, uh, you know of, uh, doubling up. And so you know, you can, as you've already outlined of some of the groups that I was involved in, they were all sort of running at the same time. And so you put one hit on and go to one, and you put another hat on and go to another. Um, there was increasing awareness that the change legislatively, whatever it was, I mean, I think people were reasonably astute politic politically. They were aware that if a significant change had to come two things would help. One was a move in public opinion generally because, um, at that time, there was something like I think about I remember from a survey about 16% who supported an equality decriminalisation. So same consenting age across across the border, across the group. Um, and so that was going to be one thing. And secondly, it needed to enlist much more of the support of people in the same way homosexual law reform was doing it with the big names. Now, that was fine. They they did. And they used it very well. Very effectively. You know, you hear a judge say this and a doctor say this and a prime Minister. Well, not perhaps the prime Minister, but you hear somebody else make a comment, and so you you're happy, uh, to hear it, and it adds to the oh, well, that person must be right. They're wise and older and qualified and so on. Uh, we felt that it needed more of the sort of people who said Yeah, actually, it isn't fair, and I'd like to be involved. Uh, it it's turned itself, um, in later campaigns to hugs. That's the heterosexuals I'm afraid of gays during the other campaign, So it became a sort of No, I don't really identify as being gay, but, you know, I'm thoroughly supportive of the changes. Uh, at the moment, too. There are a number of sort of, uh, you know, marriage equality groups that have set up that are not identifiably gay activist groups, but are people who are just generally supportive of the principle. And sometimes they're in churches. Sometimes they're in, you know, and other issue groups and are happy to to support. And so with that, um, particularly, uh, Mike Waghorn, who was very involved in the group there down at the time, Lindsay, myself and a few others we just took, I suppose three or four of us out and started to organise some of these Or try to, I suppose, you know, establish some of these other other smaller groups. Uh, the campaign for homosexual equality was the one because it meant that by just saying homosexual equality, it could bring other groups in, like the Anglican social service groups, a whole range of others. And so that one down there, uh, was designed and we worked on raising support among as I say, or getting these groups to join together and as a sort of ginger groups, uh, to to be supportive. Um, the campaign for homosexual equality was probably the biggest in Christchurch. Uh, but others have developed on the other areas as well, and some of them linked up, But mostly they were still regionally based, which was quite interesting. And the other was, um um, the other side of it was that there were sort of harsher things to do. And, um, so the a group that we also established at the time was, I suppose what you describe as a little dodgy today and that was hell, which was the homosexual electoral and legislative lobby. And, um, essentially, it was only 23 of us. It was, um I think it was Lindsay. Certainly Mike and myself. And, um, there are times when you really want to say it how it is, you know, and and with the fury and the abuse and everything else behind it, And, um, we tended to concentrate on just simply sending letters to members of Parliament to say, you know, like, how dare you sit there? Sort of in your, you know, comfortable chairs and sit about unconcerned. Well, you know, young men and women are killing themselves, Um, which you wouldn't tend to say in a nice, respectable sort of letter. You just say, Well, you know, there are obviously serious social consequences from these policies, and perhaps you might serve if you, you know, please would, you know, change it. And these were just rude, demanding, brash, um, disrespectful letters. And so that was set up because quite anonymously, it was known, was around. And it was advertised because it was doing a what shall we say, a nastier job than the other more moderate groups. And there was very much a feeling that if a movement socially was to to do to improve and to establish itself, it had to move itself. Also, just not into the what will I call it, the extremist areas, as people saw it, but into the into the mainstream. And that's what those groups tended to try and do what we tried to do with them. Can you tell me a wee bit more about, um, both Lindsay Taylor and Mike Waghorn? Uh, yes. Um um Mike Waghorn Uh was was older in the University of Canterbury, where he'd been doing it was Canterbury, or might have been Victoria. But anyway, he was doing a degree, and one of the things he'd come along to do was a survey in the early liberation days about sexuality and sexual politics and so on. Um and he stayed on he, um he Yeah, he just became fiercely, uh, supportive of things. Uh, to the point of being gay Liberation Secretary on numerous occasions later on, he was magnificent for me as the secretary for the National Gay Rights Coalition. Um and, um, a fine, What should I say? Finely tuned political head, Um, and unrelentingly and unapologetically, um, sharp. You know, uh, and and in that sense, I know it caused sometimes problems with other members who really would like it to have been sort of Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. Please, sir, can we have some changes, sir? Um, that the sort of brutality was really not very nice. And really, we should be nice when we're doing these things. And so, um, he throw through his weight quite considerably behind all those groups over a period of time. Uh, and was a spectacularly good advocate. Um, later, we mentioned the human Rights Commission at the time. And downy, uh, he was brilliant when he presented his submissions in Wellington there some time, further on and totally sort of upset the commission, um, in the way he actually advocated. But, um, he was a sort of dynamo. He was the sort of power one of the power dynamos. Uh, Lindsay Taylor was very much an intellectual, um, from, um, and at the University of Canterbury. Uh uh, uh. Studied Sylvia Plath in English and, uh, the sort of darker text. We always jokingly suggested that it hadn't helped him in many ways. He, um he was very much like the philosopher. He was a socialist action league. So he came in through? Yeah, that sort of, um yeah, very left wing political group, um, and which he sort of developed his teeth around, but found them increasingly unwilling to deal with issues related to sexuality and sexual politics. You know, having trouble with that with women's liberation as well as gay liberation. So So his increasing frustration and depress, you know, despair drove him, Uh, not because he was unwilling but, you know, pushed him straight through into gay liberation. Whilst he always remained as part of that, he, um he was, uh, uh, one of those people who, uh, uh wanted much more action. As I say he did the paint ups on the star building. So he was very much a case of, um What's the word for it, uh, of direct action. Very much favour of direct action. Uh, great enthusiast of David Bowie. Used to sing on the property hat at the most inappropriate times. Uh, and, uh, was wonderful at writing. He he He was a very good political writer, as was Mike. I always felt myself that I was not as good at writing stuff even today, Uh, despite all the experience and times I've had to, But, uh, he was also a very good organiser, you could say. And it came from the socialist action, Sort of, uh, I suppose training programme in which he said, um, you know, and that's where I sort of got the experience. And this is how I'll pass it on so he could sort out and organising things extremely well. And they were two of the I say the big motivators and certainly power activists in there. And there were a number of others, so I don't want to detract from them either, But, uh, they were a couple of the more prominent ones. Can you describe some of the other direct actions that were being taken by by groups around that time? Um, there was an attempt to lay a wreath on the cenotaph for all those gay men and women who had died in the war. Which I'm just I may be getting my dates a little bit mixed, but I do remember I think it was Guthrie. He was the mayor at the time. Sort of took it and threw it off the centre. And that that occasion? Some, um you know, uh, some outcry and some some public debate. Um, also, there were a number of, um well, I say sort of legal incidents, One of which I remember, um, where a 22 men were arrested for kissing in a in A in a telephone booth in central central Wellington. And, um, sorry in central Christchurch. And, uh, um, Evans, the magistrate there did the, um, absolutely outrageous took the outrageous course of action by actually dismissing them without conviction. Uh, that went through, um, and was subsequently overturned. But he had clearly there were people like this who would deliberately go out And, uh, you know, make a really strong and determined ruling so that it did create a fuss and to have people argue about it and over it, um, the actual direct actions themselves In terms of protest, there were the occasional marches, Usually pretty, pretty small. Um, but, uh, they did increase slowly over time. And it was a little bit because you remember, too over these. This time we had, uh, the racist tours Hearts was also women's liberation was developing. There was, uh, an increasing amount of strident, uh, sort of Maori nationalism with and groups like that, um, and also the Mount John and all the Omega, which I was involved in. So many of us were also involved in some of these other movements. And, uh, therefore, that often brought people we sort of became, I suppose, a bit like sort of beacons and and drew some people from those movements as well who were actually gay, but you know, had been much more involved in those other protest movements. And I remember, uh, with some amusement, uh, Richard Thompson, who was a lecturer in sociology at university walking and very involved with the whole racist tours. And on the 1st March that I went, it was quite early on. It must be in the seventies, very early seventies, and I said, You know, he'd been marching for years and I said, Well, you know, how do you cope with this 200 people wandering through the streets, being subjected to sort of abuse because I was aware that was highly likely to come on for us. And he said, Oh, he said the good thing, Rob. And he said, You don't have to worry because he said in in 10 to 20 years, he said, Uh, no one will even question it, and everyone will be delighted that we did it. He said it will eventually we will win eventually in terms of racism and racist tours. And, um, and that's why it was always interesting when, um, um uh, Jack Goodwin had said, you know, uh, politics is the art of the possible. That's why I'd always believed that, uh, Richard's comments were very interesting because as it did, it grew and grew and grew. And of course, you know, things did actually change, including in South Africa itself. And so, uh, his comment was to say it was an idea whose time had come. And I've often used that with, uh, you know, queer liberation to gay liberation. With the number of groups in the seventies, did you ever find that people were being drawn in so many different directions that actually, you know, um, but basically disperse the energy rather than kind of a groundswell? Yes, Lindsay, Lindsay had a wonderful thing When when Sometimes there were criticisms within the movement. Um, at the time of people you know, hogging the limelight and and making themselves important. Um, and his comment was always to say is is you know, gay liberation is not the movement to lead out publicly. And if you think it's a you know, a nice, clean, beautiful movement that is going to endear you to the public, then you better think again. And that was very much it. So there was always the temptation to move into other groups, but there was also the temptation to come the other way. And I certainly I know Lindsay is one of those examples who came from another sort of situation to some extent, too had been involved in other, you know, more sort of left, I suppose, Um, you know, political groups and had come on across and just targeted it in a little bit more specifically to to gay liberation. Um, and so again, it seemed to be you didn't tend to pull yourself out of one group. You stayed there, but you maybe just diminished your role in it. And, um, you know, in terms of racism and and and Vietnam was another area that I was involved in, but I didn't take any major leadership things, even though, you know, I was president and 73 president of the association. So we were solidly behind the withdrawal of the troops. Um, so people didn't tend to withdrew, but they did tend to focus their energies a bit more on one. You know, a specific one. The people like, uh, you know, Trevor Richards and those people who were in a lot of groups, but they, you know, this was heart was their their area and that's what they did. Their most work in so 1976 was also when the National Gay Rights Coalition was formed. Can you tell me why and how that came about? Well, the the idea came through in 76. It actually, in January 77. Um, it actually started to get itself together, but it it it drew together a number of things. I. I, uh, rushed up the the side of the island with a number of others Lindsay Taylor and and some Australian friends, uh, to the conference in Wellington, uh, over on the streets and got there. And then the first one, the first addresses from Jack Goodwin. Uh, and this is actually where he made his comment about, um, you know, the art of the politics being the art of the possible, um, and which I took considerable exception to at the time in that sort of, you know, 25 year old sort of way. Um, but also, during the course of the conference, it got sort of like it got stuck. It seemed like, you know, we were sort of going around in circle and getting nowhere, and I'd been asked to give a presentation address to the meeting. Uh, which I did and, um, And effectively, I sort of let you know, let rip, uh, and I I said that we've got to a stage where we've got all these groups around the country. Nothing has happened. There's no coordination. It's come to the time when we have to start getting those things together. Uh, I said, uh, you know, annual conference has become a time when basically, we spend our time sort of pulling the tree out of the ground, examining the roots and then hoping it's going to grow further during the next year. Uh, and on top of that, I you know, I also accuse them of being about effective as warts on a camel's bum. I think was one of the expressions I used and and also that, um, in many ways, in terms of issues of the thing, we had our a bit like the, you know, the ostrich. We had our sort of heads in the sand, and it left one part of our anatomy pretty vulnerable. And so, um, it seemed to, you know, catch some sort of feeling at the time that despite the fact that all these little groups were developing around the country, there was things were showing some signs of movement. Nothing else was happening. And so I proposed at this that and in the speech that we needed to get together over the rest of the year. This was October and in January in Wellington hold a gathering of people interested in setting up a national organisation. Uh, and hence, uh, the gathering occurred in January and early January, Um, in one of the women's, uh, uh, venues and we discussed the issue. It was overwhelmingly supported, and the National Gay Rights Coalition of New Zealand was born. Um, it was founded very much on an equality provision, which made it not easy for some groups because they were still keen on different, you know, levels of age in terms of, um, what would I call it, I suppose? An age of consent. Um, but the assumption was that you you didn't have to sort of religiously accept every tenant of the coalition, but that it was equality focused and that that's as a long term aid. We wanted some wanted others in between. So we just quietly as it were simply didn't make that a sticking point for organisations like homosexual Law Reform Society. Um, interestingly enough, Um, we then over the next month or two, set up a sort of constitution and got that going and established effectively the sort of first offices. I took a quieter role because 6 76 7 was my sort of the end of my probationary period. And whilst it had all gone through OK, I was still sort of coming out of that. But it was also part of the frustration. It also had contributed to the frustration of not sort of seeming to get very far at all, and law reform itself, not getting very far despite all the prominent people and the and the solid support. Um, nothing was happening basically, and we had increasing, um, people's numbers of people standing up and saying, You know, let's have something. Let's have law change. But nothing had come through. Um, interestingly, the first coalition the coordinator of the coalition was, as she was known then, Judith S, uh, it illustrated something of the difficulty of going into sort of national situations. And, you know, she came from a particularly distinctive immigrant family in Auckland. And so, you know, there were potential complications around that. And so this, uh, you know, sort of non deplume as it were, which people didn't even realise. I never realised until some years later that it wasn't actually her real name and illustrates something of the, you know, the I suppose the fear of of what you were going to be able to do. So she actually took it and headed it up. She'd come with an Auckland background, and the women's groups fear and, um, uh, effectively took on the the task of of getting it established. And over that time, there was, um, you know, considerable amount of of effort, uh, myself and a number of others went around groups in the provinces to sort of try and draw them in. Uh, and that wasn't always easy because it was clearly a political group. And for many of the social groups, they were very nervous that they didn't necessarily want to be associated with political groups. But the I think the attractiveness of, you know, looking at the equality, the fact that until we had law change, everyone was in danger. You know social groups. Um, you know, police have been raiding saunas, all sorts of things that happened around that suggested that no one was really safe and that, um, this it wasn't too dangerous to be belong to belong to this organisation. Um, I then came in and and, uh, and led the coalition's 78 and 79. I think you know, it sounds don't wish to be just sort of pushing barrels barrels, but it it did certainly, uh was a really important expansion time. And a very important, um, what I call promotion time. Um, we at that time had the combined. What will I call it? I suppose the the combined strength of something like 65,000 members. Uh, that was, of course, made up because student associations belonged. There was a whole series of groups, belonged and became affiliates of the organisation. But it began to sort of appear as to be quite a big and solid group, uh, to the point where one of the more difficult moments I had was in, I think it was 78 and the Shah of Persia, um, had dropped out. And of course, the Ayatollah Khamenei was the sort of religious leader there. And, um, one afternoon part of the task of the coalition and also to increase more attempts to highlight in what should we say? Protest international incidents? Um, you know, gay men were being shot in Iran, and there were countries where death penalty was was prescribed. So we had made it a deliberate policy from the executive of which was made up from basically a representative from each of the regional NGRC groupings, which started to actually, you know, bring the sort of regions closer together, Um, that these people had said, Look, you know, we we will start to highlight and also explain that whilst we we believe we're badly off, there are a lot of other countries that are much worse off even today. Of course. Um, I received a note and that there was something coming on from the television about a New Zealand group of homosexuals threatening to kill uh, mosh Rabi, who was the at that time? The Iranian Minister of Justice. Uh, because of his systematic death penalties without trial of of homosexuals. And, um, this was curious because I don't quite know what it was all about, but it transpired in the short of it that he that, um, a letter that I had actually sent under my name to the minister. Uh, you know, had sort of protested the outrageousness of it and the unfairness and the, you know, the massacring of people. Um, of which the translators had interpreted as actually a death threat against mosh Rabi. Um, and at that time, it was really very difficult because was there and who's been in the news just again recently, Um, and they were trying to preserve the sheep and lamb trade going across into Iran. So it was, you know, economically, quite quite significant. Um, and the so this association of 65,000 homosexuals had decided to, um, as I say, assassinate the Minister of Justice. Um, And as it transpired, they eventually they summoned the, you know, the diplomat over there at the time. And actually, um, uh, eventually transpired. Agen France press had done the first release of this information, but they realised that there were some translation translation errors in it, and in fact, hadn't been the case. But it had a huge effect, because, um, I mean, just in terms of the publicity that was sort of gained here in New Zealand. Um, also interesting. Because of the belief that you know, a group might even threaten, you know, 65,000 might threaten a violent, uh, you know, a way of, uh, you know, retaliating violently against these offences against, uh, people in their the death in their country. Um, and so it sort of quietened down. But there was those sorts of initiatives. I think that they've got things going. And even while today I'm not keen to go through Iran in case they've still got my name on their records, um, it it provided the sorts of things that nationally we really needed. Um, the second really big one was we set about doing a major campaign advertising campaign for the National Gay Rights Coalition. And there was some fairly, fairly strange sort of heading, like, you know what has 65,000 leagues or something and, you know, works to do this and that, uh, into the listener and, well, beings in Auckland of a fine graphics art. Gentlemen, did some sort of almost Audrey Beardsley type. Uh, you know, illustrations for it. Uh, But with that went a number of very, very impressive names. We were using the same trying to bring that also over to the coalition that we it wasn't all just radical gay liberation groups. And he, um um, as a result of that, we had a huge difficulties getting it published because, um, most commonly editors wanted the signed, you know, letters of every person of significance on it. Uh, and some newspapers, the press, in particular in Christchurch was opposed to it and refused to print it. So, um, we again, it was a mixture of national and international action. Uh, sorry. National and local action. Uh, we got, um, the the group there in Christchurch. We actually printed copies of the advertisement, and on the morning of release, we went around all the, um, you know, the the take the honesty boxes in the city and interleaved a copy of the advertisement through all of those papers. Now, clearly, we didn't get the, you know, the home deliveries, but, uh, that caused something of a roar as well, because we were determined to see it in in newspapers. And, of course, the publicity that came out of that helped as well. And it was, I think, the first time in those years when we started to do sort of look at things and do them differently. Um uh, there was a a claim. One of the bills, the Freer bill, I think which, uh, we'll probably come on to in a moment. But, uh, that was an area where the sort of, you know sneakier things were done. And, uh, I think as the coalition gathered more support and and focused on the national but also international other things around, so to it, uh, it, um it sort of brought a focus to the campaign. That was very helpful. How did you keep the focus within the coalition when you've got so many different groups and so many different ways of of doing things? Uh, there were two ways. Um, I think basically the annual conference has kept people together. I think. Secondly, um, it was a very strong feeling. It started to develop that, you know, the time is here, and, um, it would be in everybody's interest to get you know, uh, a decriminalisation. At least there were other things. There were, you know, discriminatory. things and so on, but at least to get rid of the criminal. Uh, the criminal threat. Um uh, and so social groups, who often had those circumstances where criminal acts could well have been on their premises were working and supportive of keeping a focus on that. So I think, rather than equality, uh, decriminalisation became the focus. People should not go to jail. They should not have sentences and should not certainly have their lives ruined by, you know, touching some other guy's knee. Can you describe for me how the different communities work together, like so, like, gays, lesbians, transgender? How How did that How did those energies kind of interact? It was interesting because it was somewhat like the, um, you know, the sort of social gay groups and the more political groups and the, you know, sort of these loose groupings around the same thing happened. They often had quite a tension between them. Um, at that stage, the issues related to transsexuals was very, very low key. In fact, I think probably in terms of study and, you know, information. I suspect paedophilia actually had more actual study than the situation of transsexuals. Um but the biggest. Of course. The biggest areas was the women and the men. And it was very difficult at times. Because whilst the the I think what I call the leadership of the coalition was clearly aware, I think we were pretty aware of the issues and the difficulties, Uh, as afforded women. Um, the, you know, the the rank and membership and file were very much like all New Zealanders, you know, a great mix of, you know, anti feminist, pro feminist, you know, I don't care. I couldn't care less sort of situations. And because gay Liberation, one of its central tenants I remember was saying that we're not, actually, you know, looking for a bigger share of the cake, you know, in terms of the society. But we actually want to redistribute the the the the cake and and and and its organisation and how it comes about. So it had that sort of profound feeling of a social movement as much as a sexual revolution movement. And that, of course, affected very much when it came to issues related to, um, you know, feminism and and gay liberation and the women, uh, were I think rightly, at times very, very suspicious and somewhat, uh, anxious about their involvement. There were a number of women, as I said, like Judith and, uh, Ray De and others who were, um, strongly and wonderfully involved. And we were very indebted as men to them for what they did and how they did it. Um, but, um, for the men, there was sometimes almost ali sort of acceptance that because the legislation didn't affect women, uh, they were lucky. And somehow they were advantaged by this, uh, and therefore the battles really about us and their issues are, uh are of no great importance. Whereas we realised, of course, there were a lot of issues in terms of feminism that were pertinent and very, very relevant. And the whole situation regarding women's place in society was not a dissimilar one to, you know, we were maybe just a bit further down the line. But if you were a what shall I say? A Maori disabled, uh, lesbian. Um, you know, your social status was so much further down even than men. And, um, a lot of members I think of the rank and file really didn't want to talk about that or discuss that, uh, decriminalisation became the obsession. And, uh, to some extent, that was was a shame, I think, Um, but it meant that for many of us, we felt that focusing on that meant that we would go on and look at other issues later. We simply couldn't do the whole pile. But it was profoundly disturbing and disappointing for many women that we were not. I think the men in the organisation were not as solidly, uh, supportive and openly supportive as they could or I think probably should have been. What was it like for you when you were travelling around the country as as the coordinator visiting these regional centres? What kind of feeling did you get from from from people? Um, the the the reactions were very, very strong and very positive. Because, of course, what happened, uh, often was each region was then responsible for what? What you did the most commonly. It was just dropping in on a meeting and talking with people and, you know, discussing the sorts of things that were happening around the country or, you know, responding to questions and issues and so on. Um, because we weren't a financed organisation as such. You know, a lot of people have made sometimes some very significant donations, but we had no regular or major, uh, supply monies as such. Um, so that was very often the common thing, but just the act of actually going there meant that very often regions set up, uh, radio and media contacts. And that became really interesting because first of all, it often focused in the area that something was going on. And if we were having trouble in the big cities getting names and details and contacts and just an acknowledgement of our existence, then smaller provincial centres, you know, such as where I came from, Hastings, Napier. Those places, um, had not really had a lot. And yet there were groups like the Hawke, Hawke's Bay Equality Society and other groups that have set up, um, and and in Palmerston groups as well. But they really had no promotion, no local or regional promotion. So on the one hand, it was sort of good for them because they were getting some publicity and some acknowledgement that they were there and about, um and that, you know, that was helpful uh, on the other side of that, of course not just, you know, their own protection or promotion, but also, of course, it gave us the opportunity to also push, you know, the particular equality issues that we felt were really important. So very often I did radio interviews and things like that as a as a way in Auckland. The Ian was very prominent in Auckland. Um, you know, we did some really good on Radio Pacific. Some of those places, a lot of I call them, perhaps not Sounds rude calling them alternative. But, you know, not so much weed into, you know, the the sort of mainstream we're quite often prepared to do things like that. Uh, and I remember, um, uh, Wilson in Christchurch did a spectacularly good documentary where the talked about his climbing and all the amazing things he'd been done out in the wilderness and so on. And the last line was basically, you know, he was asked the question. Well, you know, surely there are some challenges you have, and his last line was, uh what was it? Oh, yes. But you see, I'm actually a homosexual. Um, and the whole programme had not been on that. And, of course, at the end, uh, I even had people today saying, God, that was the most spectacular thing when I watched that programme that they've never forgotten that last thing about it. So there were people around the country starting to do those little things in their own community areas that were sort of generating more interest and and more political. You know, uh, more political pressure, which is what we were wanting at the time you were touring. We're talking late seventies, so there's been almost a decade of, um, people talking about law reform, but it hasn't happened. What is the kind of energy like, um, energy was still very high because there was a feeling that something was going to move. This was constantly sort of reiterated and and and, um, intensified by the, uh, you know, New Zealand Homosexual Reform Society, who were starting to get murmurs from within parliament. Well, look, maybe this thing isn't going to go away, and maybe we should do something. Uh, whether it was on the basis of, you know, these poor people need to not at least be sent to jail for it, which is the feeling many had, uh, through to those who were much more equality oriented. And so the threat? Well, yes, I suppose the threat politically was always there. It was never a serious one. Because, of course, we simply didn't have the political clout as a, you know, as a group to ever be big enough to, you know, to to shift, uh um, you know, shift the electoral majorities and things or or change seats. And we deliberately never went out to do that because we knew that it was likely to result in failure. And so we had to be really careful about focusing our campaigns and making sure that they at least appeared to, you know, to be successful, uh, launching ones that were going to go down. The was really just We thought it was just like political suicide for the groups, but, yeah, that the energy was quite high. And it was very much, uh, um, you know, intensified by the sort of rumours. And as we know, a number of initiatives coming through, uh, into, um, uh, into parliament to actually get those changes made. Do you feel that people were more willing to be visible. I I'm thinking that, you know, um, because in the late seventies you you would have started getting things like your gay pride Weeks and and things like that were, were people more out? It's a very interesting question because I think in some ways they probably were a little more out. But an interesting thing happened in in terms of the movement, the beginning. You had active gay people largely then, as the the, you know, homosexual equality groups and the hugs and all those other groups came in. You had situations where there were a lot of people around who were. You know, sometimes it's put in a humorous situation. I sort of come along to these things, you know, when it gets busy. In other words, I don't want to identify as being gay. I am. But, uh, I can work in groups in areas now where I don't have to stand up and say, Look, hey, I'm gay and I'm doing this. Uh, you can put your hand up and say I am working for human rights. And so the human rights campaign thing that we we obviously vigorously um uh you know, worked on was one of those things that, in a way gave people a lot more people the opportunity to be involved in the issue without having to identify as being themselves gay. So more were coming out. But it certainly wasn't huge. Because when you looked at the numbers being involved, you still had to say, Well, you know, you couldn't identify them all as just being outright lesbian or gay activists. And so it's quite a hard one. It was something that was happening in terms of the organisation itself, and part of its, I suppose, increasing respectability there. I hate to say that, but, you know, as it was gaining that sort of middle ground much more, it was, um, becoming much more. What sort of difficult, uh, so much easier to to be involved without having to roundly identify yourself. You've mentioned, um, some of the political things that were happening, but we actually haven't covered at all your your standing for parliament, Um, three. You know, three times. Tell me, um, how did you come to the Values party and and why did you decide to stand as a as an openly gay man. It was very interesting because, uh, Tony Brunt, who'd originally setting that up in in Wellington as a sort of, you know, an alternative political party. Uh, it it it was, um, also designed, or the intention was to move into regional politics as well. Uh, and that did happen to an extent afterwards. Even when the national, you know, grouping, uh, held, uh, held back. Um, but, uh, when I first saw it, and it was only, you know, the sort of the bones of it because it was clearly only being developed in, uh, not only did it have a very strong human rights for, but it also had a very strong green. Um, you know, a green focus as well. And, um and then it did look at women's liberation and gay liberation with no detail whatsoever. I might point, but they believe that these things needed to be addressed and was part of that urgency. Um, and it was actually my mother in Hastings when I was there in 72 because I used to go back and work in the freezing works of all places at in, um, in the holiday period. Uh, and that often lead to an election period, which is the case, as it was in 72. And she said, Oh, you might be interested in this. So I had a look, and I thought, Yeah, this is interesting. So I wonder where they are in that, uh, you know, in that sort of spectrum. And when contacted them, Um and we talked about it. They said yes. You know, Great. Um, but also, we haven't actually got any, um, you know, sort of homosexual policy as such. You know, uh, would you write it So I said, you know, I said, Fine, I'll do that and get some people together and we'll we'll put something up. So it came through there. In fact, in the end, I think in the actual 72 white, I think it's the white policy book. I think that they only put in two lines or something. But the two lines were equality. Uh, and, you know, support anti discrimination with the two areas. And I thought, Gee, this is a huge gain, because if a political party is now actually starting to embed this, um, you know, other parties are going to be looking over saying, you know? Well, hello. What's going on here? Is there anything that's going to, you know, negatively affect us if we don't, uh, you know, take it over, as as even today often happens. So, um, to to to shorten that on for 72. I said, Look, I'll stand. Um, I'll stand in Hastings, which was Duncan min seat and interesting because he was the minister of conservation and and farming and so on. Uh, not for much that I thought I would be likely to defeat him, but it was good to have a, uh, a debate in that in that area. Um, And then, of course, through the whole country, basically, we had candidates in every electorate, and this was achieved over about three or four months. It was staggering. Um, and, uh, and Tony Brunt actually closed the campaign in Hastings, which was was quite interesting because he thought, you know, there might be some dent into Duncan McIntyre's, uh, um, you know, majority and that it wouldn't go over to labour. So the labour candidate was really worried that I would suck votes, uh, out of, uh, you know, their reelection in that in that seat. Um, and but what was interesting in it was that, I mean, apart from my tiredness, because I tended to work from 7. 30 in the morning. Uh, sorry. 2. 30 in the morning till eight at night. Then I'd go out and do campaign and home meetings, go to bed for three or four hours and then back into work. So that was a five day a week, Uh, thing until the election campaign, when I collapsed and slept, uh, very soon after the election results. So the 400 votes I got was pretty much in. Although I was a bit surprised. I thought that was actually, you know, for a starter party 400 was quite interesting, because many people I thought, there must be 400 around in the city is quite pleasing for the future. And so, um, so it sort of developed from there and then 70. Um, was it 75? I went as far as, um, standing as an out candidate in Christchurch Central, where I was living. And that was, um uh was it, uh, yeah, I picked up about 1400 votes or something like that. there. And I was really delighted and quite surprised and because I'd made no pretence of being gay. Um, a gay man and the people in the working groups and that had all come from other sectors and things. So they weren't, You know, it wasn't as though it was just a another gay liberation group being set up. Uh, and then I stood again in 78. Uh, and I got about 2. 5 1000 votes, I think, which was staggering. I think I was about the fifth highest polling values candidate in the country if I remember, uh, by then it had started to disintegrate a bit. Uh, sadly, uh, there were all sorts of things, and then, of course, it sort of, uh, you probably rude to say it's morphed, but it sort of moved into a green movement as such, of which I'm still, you know, thoroughly supportive of, but, uh, and it's very, very specific in terms of, uh of changes in homophobia and dealing with those sorts of issues in education. So, um, you know, it's it's great. And of course, Labour and National and others have slowly crawled on to the on the truck as it's gone past over the decades. So have there been any other person in New Zealand's history that had stood as an openly gay candidate? Not in 75. So yes, the first. And in that I don't know of any other. There may well be, but nothing that I know of. And that was 75 and 78. Um uh, the only other one coming on was Ian Scott a little bit later in Eden. Uh uh, sort of a bigger notice, of course, because he was to, you know, he was very close to unseating the can the, uh, national candidate there at that time and taking it for Labour so much more significant as such. But yeah, um, and it became reassuring because a lot of people said, Well, maybe you can do things in public life and that, you know, being gay isn't necessarily a problem. And those were the sorts of things I suppose personally and deep down, I wanted to, you know, to to illustrate and continue to try and illustrate that, you know, you can actually do it. It can be tough sometimes. But, you know, I think we have got a duty to reduce the, you know, the the shroud of of invisibility. Get Get rid of it as best we can and actually be seen to be out there and doing what we can for our wider community. So in 1975 did anyone make a thing out of of you being gay? Um, no. Um, it was a little bit like my election to the presidency of University Canterbury Students Association, and, uh, there was a lovely reference in one of the critical papers that said, um, Mike, I won't give his last name, but Mike had said that something that was understood that Robin was a good lay. Um, and apart from my thinking, it was totally untrue. And he had no reason at all to ever have known whether that was correct or not. Um, very often things were put, you know, like a gay candidate or whatever still happens today. You know, they talk about a gay teacher or a gay or a lesbian, this or lesbian that where if they're talking about, uh, you know, they don't talk about a divorced woman or what or they sometimes do Talk about a divorced woman. But, you know, they don't talk about people as being divorced men or whatever, you know. So the sort of categorization was always there. Um, that never seemed to have any negative effect, really. And that's been one of the remarkable things. Certainly in my time coming through when times I have felt it's been a little threatening or worrying, Uh, it's never, you know, it's never quite come to anything that serious that I thought should I should not have done this, but, uh, so that's been pretty encouraging and hopefully encouraging for people coming on. And how does it square with, um, you were saying earlier about not wanting to be necessarily out there as you're on probation as a teacher And well, that 1975 is right in the middle of when you're doing that. So right. But it was just at the end. 0, 75. In terms of the yeah, um, so it was done with considerable nervousness. I mean, all of these things are done with a that dreadful feeling of Should I really be doing that? I know it's easy for people to hope and pretend that you just did this consciously and went out and and and and attacked as it were. But it wasn't like that at all. So, um, it certainly got more force. By the time I got to 77 and 78 in the coalition, Uh, I, I didn't give a hoot then, but they did have kickbacks in the school context. And, uh, at one stage when I I was up in a court case for, uh uh believe it or not smuggling, um, that that when that came back, to be looked at by the school and board and a conviction is really not a criminal conviction. It's a fixture or something like that. But anyway, it's like a tax thing. Um and so, um, the the school was thoroughly supportive, but the then director of education, uh, was clearly extremely keen to get rid of me on the grounds of being gay. And I still have all those files and stuff that I managed to get at home, and I want to look a little bit further into in the coming years, but, uh, and later on, other incidents occur where, having been out quite prominently, you're a bit of a target. And that's very scary, because you think if I get Exocet missile, you know, I stick my head up over the parapet and it gets lobbed off. The message also isn't very good to those following on. So, uh, I've been prepared to do that, but tempered with a little bit of caution to make sure that I don't go down in in any way. You know that I That I am, uh, as it were undone or unseated from the work you're doing, um, by people who really just don't want you there. Do do you think that, um, the leaders of the gay rights coalition were targeted in terms of, you know? I mean with you know, the police looked more part of those people. Um, there was never as I can remember. There were never any specific instances, uh, that I can remember where someone in the sort of those sort of leading roles those organiser activist roles was was attacked or but were clearly were watched. You know, we were We were clearly watched and watched over that time. Um I mean, it's interesting under the official Information Act. I've now got that some of my, um, security intelligence file material back very little. I'm highly suspicious that there's a lot there, but, uh, it's it's sort of amusing because, uh, when I was involved with the heart side of things, uh, and I was involved in running the nonviolent action, Um, before the, uh, seminars or the field events, I suppose action programmes, training programmes. Um, just be building into the, uh, the races tour, Um, and the heart objections to that. And there is a reference in the, uh, in my file that says that, uh, uh, myself and three others, including, um, Trevor Richards, um were, uh, four of the most dangerous people in New Zealand because they were publicly, um uh, an announcing their desire to set up by force a Marxist state in New Zealand. Now, it's really funny, because I've never, ever had any intention to do that. But clearly people had heard things at meetings and were being at a time reporting. In fact, I now know who the person was that that was doing the spying for the security intelligence, but so I would not be surprised if those people were, in fact, not being I'd be very surprised if they hadn't been, uh, watched carefully at the time. Did you realise you were being watched? No. Oh, sorry. In the in the heart one. Yes. We were aware of that one, but nothing that I know of in the gay liberation side that I was aware of. Yeah. Interesting. How had the climate changed from your 1975 campaign to the 1978 campaign with in terms of getting elected? Um, the the I think the biggest change had been that over that time, uh, we'd had What shall I say? Between 78? Um, yeah. Much wider public debates over human rights legislation. There was a much bigger emphasis on that, and a lot of people, Certainly the activist people found that it was very attractive to use the human rights side because it was a much easier argument to run. Uh, whereas the sort of decriminalisation talked about sexual acts and activities, Uh, it was the area that gave the greatest opportunity for fire to the, you know, to the church groups and the morality, Uh, the morality people. And so, um, human rights, I think, actually helped that and there was a lot more talk about it. And remember in this, too were the, you know, society for the promotion of community standards and Patricia Bartlett. And, you know, despite the fact that we may laugh at some of the things they said, they certainly still had, you know, some influence on what was going on. And even when I was in court, um, in a, uh, publications hearing over, um, the Alistair, um I can't remember his name Alistair Taylor's book on that he published about sex and sort of sexuality That just escapes me for the moment. Um, and I was actually sitting by and we were talking away about it and and strangely enough, agreeing on quite a, you know, a number of things. But, um um, she when I was called to the to give evidence and support of the book because I was a teacher and said these were damn good resources. And of course, they were advancing things like, um, you know, um, equality and, uh, decriminalisation, but also, uh, starting to deal with the anti homophobia side, which was the sort of third area that was gaining greater popularity. So you had the decriminalisation, then you had the, uh, human rights aspect and and that was coming really strongly. And then, um, hovering in the background, there was the sort of, you know, almost in institutional homophobia that was occurring as well that were beyond the control of a lot of individuals who were often doing it, but just simply weren't even aware that they were doing it. And so that climate, I think, had a huge, uh shall we say, pressure towards, uh, you know, improving the political outlook for 78. The 19 seventies was, um, a decade where there were a number of times where kind of homosexual law reform almost happened. And I'm wondering, and also some other things in parliament around kind of sexuality. I'm wondering if we could just maybe go through those and and just, um, get your comments on them. Um, when was the first time in New Zealand that kind of homosexual law reform kind of, uh, was attempted? Um, the first one, was the Vin Young bill, which was a crimes amendment bill. Uh, and I suppose, um, very much set up, um, and and initiated through the New Zealand homosexual law Reform Society. I don't know whether Vin Young himself was incredibly personally committed to doing that, but certainly in terms, I suppose of human rights and just fairness, he he seemed at least, uh, keen to bring it into the, um the same sort of, I suppose legislative framework that was you was being had been considered in Britain. That's the consenting age of 21. There were a lot of other concerns about that, of course, because, um, uh, the definitions of, um, of the consenting age were also somewhat tricky and very often problematic. Uh, you know, in public, for example, um, you know, if there are two people in your home, um, and you're having consenting relations with someone else in that house. Uh, does this mean that your home is actually a public place because there's another person? So there were all sorts of little legislative things that cause some difficulties. But the big difficulty here and the one that I think, um, was why, you know, we were most commonly and vigorously opposed was, Of course, it didn't measure to the age of consent of 21. Uh, and we were it. It did make it problematic for the law reform Society because very obviously, they they had, I suppose gay men and women themselves say, you know, we don't want this. Um, we're not, you know, not going to have it. Uh, and, um and so as a result, uh, opposition was pretty strong, but it was interesting because the vote was close, you know, 34 to 29 was indeed large number of abstentions, but it was showing and convincing us that certainly very slowly, bit by bit, we were making gains. And I think that, uh, also contributed to that pre 78 feeling as well before elections there. That this was, um you know, that things were actually showing some signs of improvement. What did it do in terms of just raising the profile of the idea of law reform? I'm thinking, you know what I mean. Was there a lot of media exposure about this? Was it? What was it talked about? A lot. Um, yes, but very often, uh, quite negatively, uh, and and very often raised by either incidents or it was raised by, uh, or opposition groups who were very strong, particularly, very strong you know, religious pressures, religious groups and pressures in New Zealand. At that time, a Catholic church in particular in tablet was very, very, very strident in what he thought about the situation and made it abundantly clear. Um, but also, um, the people also were caught in What will I call it? Sort of different situations. And so whenever there was a negative, um, incident or event occurring, Um, it hit the headlines. Pretty obviously. Uh, but, uh, I think often the churches and the opposing groups are the ones that most commonly highlighted things. And, uh, as I mentioned with Patricia Bartlett, you know, the actual publication of other materials that they felt was disgusting, lewd and whatever, um, was, uh, also provided an opportunity for discussion. So most of it was very much couched in a a negative vein. And that was interesting because clearly there were changes occurring in in in public opinion at that stage. We believed that, um from, uh, an article I remember in the Wellington newspaper, the Dominion Post. Um, we were at about 22% for equality, so we knew we had a huge battle. If it was going to be done on a, you know, on the basis of, uh, you know, the a public support public feeling, a range of others. There were still quite considerable amounts of support for decriminalisation, but the next steps or other aspects in terms of, uh, human rights and certainly other areas like homophobia and that were well down the line around the same time, we had people like Marilyn Waring coming into Parliament. And, uh, the other big media event was the Colin Moyle affair. Did did Do you have any comment on on either of those two things? Yes. I mean, obviously again, very much the same sort of process occurred, I think, for Marilyn Waring. I mean, she came in with a political party. Uh uh. Some would feel somewhat surprisingly, uh, that she was in a conservative party in government. I don't necessarily think that's the case in terms of these sorts of issues that doesn't tend usually to, you know, to involve a battle between a left and a right or any other political on the political spectrum. Um, but the fact that she was, uh, you know, able to be quite outright and quite open about things was hugely encouraging when you know some of us who had been standing as candidates around. And in that time, um, we had hoped we starting to say to people, Look, you know, it is OK, and we're not going to, you know, go back into the closet, as the expression was, we're here, and we're here to stay, Uh, and we will be as legitimately involved in decisions of the country as anyone else. Um, you know, even if some of us, including myself, had some misgivings about what that actually meant, when you're in a government and in a political party, But, you know, there were the signs of that and that actually was, uh, hugely encouraging. And the mo of fear was, um, a somewhat frightening example. I think to a number of us, particularly in the more prominent side of the groups that, um, you could get, uh, done. It was still dangerous out there. It was, uh, shark infested custard and that what you could end up with is in the case of Moyle, when all of a sudden, you know, Muldoon effectively turned on him in Parliament and had made comments about, uh you know what he was doing and where he was and so on and making the accusation, um, was that sort of standard, you know, bring the dirty washing out and, you know, and target the person and discredit them and what they say by, you know, identifying them in this most negative way. Um, it was a worry that that because, you know, it can happen. But it was a worry that it was used in the highest court of the land. Uh, and by you know, the prime minister. Effectively, um, that was bad enough. But for many of us, I think Moyle response was an even greater worry because over a period of what, three or four weeks after it, I think he gave I identify three different versions of what he was doing and why he was there and, you know, and and so I don't think that actually helped it. To this day, I don't know which one is true or whether a mixture of them is true. Uh, maybe it's irrelevant. I don't know, but, um, that, uh, as I said, made people very nervous that you could be attacked because of your sexuality. it could continue on. Um, And on top of that, um, that unless you were extremely careful how you went about it, you could actually, you know, turn What he could have claimed was a really nasty personal attack on him on a matter that really is a largely no, no business of Muldoon, anyway, of sorts, Um, it could be turned on you and and and made to, you know, politically corrupt you or or reduce your effectiveness. It was interesting as well, with with Marilyn Waring in that, um she was basically outed by by by truth newspaper and and again, it's it's, you know, using your sexuality as as a kind of a something against you. Did that have any impact on you? Oh, hugely. It's still, you know, it's It's a a lesser extension of the heart. It's that, you know, and a death of your name, I suppose. Um, which people, you know, we might think? Well, you know, that's not as bad as being killed, and obviously it's not. But on the other side, you know your name is important and who you are and what you represent. It's an integral part of your your being. So when people are attacking that, um and often when it's in quite scurrilous ways uh, you can only But you know, feel what shall I say? Um, frightened, really, to be perfectly honest about what can happen and how it can happen. And but it does did actually give the ammunition to us and the arguments, particularly with the human rights legislation, to say, Look, this is the sort of thing that happens and, you know you can stand up and keep saying, You know, everyone is perfectly happy about gays and they don't say terrible things and they don't do nasty things when in fact, you know, the evidence is indeed quite to the contrary. And, um and so it was. It's one of those. What do they call them? A sobering moment, I suppose, into what was that stage becoming quite a reasonable and effective campaign and a growing interest and determination to change that. You had these sort of dark clouds hovering over, and it certainly hasn't made. It didn't make it easy, and that brings us to 1977 where the Human Rights Commission they refuse to include sex, sexual orientation so so that you can be discriminated against if if on on, on the on the basis of your sexuality. I mean, when I look back at that now, I think II, I can't believe believe that's the Human Rights Commission. We couldn't believe it either, and and we certainly couldn't believe the arguments that were being used that effectively was allowed to do this. I think Downie was the human rights commissioner at the time, Uh, of of Catholic background. Um, and not that that always means that you know, people are opposed, obviously, but, um, that clearly was a significant factor. Um, in the in this decision, anyway, And, um uh, the National Gay Rights Coalition. I remember we actually, uh, put a submission before, um, the group, uh, and this illustrated Mike Waghorn? Um, yeah, clever way of dealing with things because what they expected when we went in to make the submission was they had expected us to go through and give evidence. You know, that was the demand all the time through media, everything, you know, prove it. You know, you say these things happen. We don't have any evidence now. Of course, it's problematic because if you've been discriminated at work. Uh, it's not that easy, actually, To stand up and say, Look, I've been discriminated at work for the fear of your job and everything, too. However, in this case, um, Mike said we won't argue it on the basis of of, uh, local evidence. What we'll do is we're going to go in and argue it on international law. And it was absolutely brilliant because, uh, they got a hell of a shock down here, in particular as a legal background, Obviously effectively, we advanced that in, certainly in Europe and a number of places in Europe and around the world that now, uh, sexual orientation was now an accepted part of international human rights legislations. Uh, we detailed those out. We, you know, showed them all the technical and legal detail of it and simply maintained that, um, we needed the evidence to say this was not happening rather than to have to come out. And to prove this was, you know, this was happening. Why would these governments, uh, you know, and, uh, United Nations and other commissions, uh, be putting this legislation and and these recommendations in place if they didn't believe it was happening. And so, uh, he was particularly annoyed at us, Um, arguing along the grounds of law rather than you know, the actual details of discrimination. And, uh um, whilst we didn't get anywhere and they still did what they did, we believe they just look sillier and sillier for what they were actually advancing and suggesting, And as you say today, we look back now and I'm just incredulous that they could They could actually try and argue that it was lawful to discriminate against people, but also remembering that, of course, it was also lawful to put people in prison, too. And that was perfectly acceptable. And I don't even remember my parents, you know, questioning that in those early years, it helped me of saying, Well, I shouldn't go to jail for this, You know, that's pretty harsh. And a lot of people were starting to say that. And, um, one of the advances with the race relations bill, People say, Well, it doesn't make any difference, you know? How can the bill stop that? But I don't remember my father there saying, Well, you know, the law does actually sort of suggest This is how I should act appropriately. And if I don't, OK, and I might never get caught. But that's what it's saying is what we accept is is is a reasonable way to deal with people. And so we continue to argue that. And despite that setback, which was clear setback and it was later with the legislation, uh, when other legislation came through, at least it, uh it highlighted the reason and the, uh, why it was being done by a human rights commission and why it was a disaster. So in 1980 you've got, um, pat down the Chief Commissioner saying that, yes, you can discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. When does that major shift happen? When the the Human Rights Commission says, Well, actually, no, you can't can't discrimination. Um, yeah. Uh, it came really towards the Fran bill is when it happened. And there was the tradeoff between decriminalisation and, uh, human rights. And you may remember that the, um, decriminalisation got through and the human rights did not. And the argument used by many of the MP and the support as well, you know, um, maybe it isn't fair to send people to jail, which was part of that common, You know, the popular feeling. Um, but whilst we may, you know, not let people be punished for it. We're not going to encourage it, so we're not going to protect people with it, so I'll vote for that. But I won't vote for the human rights thing. And I think even up to that point, it was still strongly against the human rights stuff. Until what 19. Was it 8, Uh, 1992 when the human rights a whole period went by. And it was also particularly sad for the women who, of course, had hoped that the same sex behaviour provisions coming in, But one of the reasons they were also battling with us, uh, and working away there was the hope that it would actually cover them and then start to afford some protection to them. Just heading back before Fran Wild Bill. We also had another attempt to do law reform that wasn't that successful, which was in 1980 Warren, free bill, Can you tell me about that? That was a particularly interesting one, because, um, it was at a time when I think the there was increasing debate over the the age of consent. Um, and my understanding was that sort of the 78 and particularly up to the sort of 80 period was really intense on that debate. Um, it was now moving strongly to the point where if you said to a person, should a person be are convicted of, um, you know, indecent contact with another male that's consensual. And within a consenting range, Uh, should they be thrown into jail? Answer was becoming almost universal. People would say No, you know, uh, you know, publicly there are always people who would say things violently or whatever, but basically that was it. So that was almost a given. And now it was moving to OK, what about some of the more technical things, like the age as such for equality? And that's where the tension, of course, also rose within some of the groups because of the feeling that this should be something. That is what, um, you know, it would be nice to have in terms of a quality absolute IE, consenting age of 16. Um, but it wasn't essential to the decriminalisation and to an extent, that was true. You know, at least you could say, Well, at least people over the age of 21 were going to be, you know, better off if they were in a consenting situation and we would always advanced that consent was always a critical aspect of it, you know, in whatever form that consent taught legally. So those things were sort of bound behind the men's conference there in 78 that I opened spoke to, um were talking, too, about also the women's position as well and making sure that they were constantly I certainly personally tried to keep raising the issue of women. But it was harder because, of course, it didn't have that that media or longer discussion thing about it, Um, and having experienced, you know, the the setbacks with the Human Rights Commission, um, out of that the law Reform Society was again working really hard to get a bill through. They knew that it was almost a given that, uh, it was, uh, getting rid of jail was was fine. No problem. But it became the consenting age, and unfortunately, in a sense, and I don't believe Warren free. Um was quite, um you know, what shall I say? Informed enough about some of what I think the political pressures were at the time came through with the effectively traditional Bill. I think it was 20 he he had actually come down to And, um, so there was a huge lack of support for us. It was felt it was just another tired old and and report type legislation. Uh, it was not helped by the fact that, uh, suggestions for change in places like Britain were just having no, you know, no traction at all. And people were saying, Well, you know, you don't go to jail now and we've got to protect young people and so on. Although even the age of 2021 seems a rather strange age to be protected by legislation. But, you know, so they're having trouble overseas. So our feeling was No. We've just got to stick with it. And so we set up a campaign opposing and I made it very clear that we were not in support of the proposed, you know, we'd like happy with the intention, you know, and the motives and that people wanted to do things but that whilst it was this, um, there would be some problems. And when you say we largely coalition, but also the leadership of lots of the groups. And at that time, um, not only the the the the the groups were a lot more regionally speaking out, too. So you still had the national. And that's one of the things that, of course, eventually happened with the coalition Is that, um it sort of faded later was partly a lot of the regions were actually taking over and doing some of the work. And it was the big debate between a national organisation and strong regional organisations that caused problems for it. But we decided as a group to do something which was probably illegal, but certainly, um certainly very effective. And that is that we actually gained quite know how it happened, a copy of the draught of the bill that was coming to parliament and as a as a result of that, we engineered it so that we had a whole range of consenting ages, a different one on each of the 86 or whatever number of parliamentarians it was, um, a different age. So you know 80 60 50 10, 6, You know, whatever year, um, and then sent them off to from Invercargill from someone down there remains nameless, um, to parliamentarians. And, of course, when they hit the offices, you know, he was just absolutely inundated with people saying, you know, you want a consenting age of six. This is just crazy. You know? No way or 82 drivers licences, whatever other qualifications were there, and, uh, I mean, he just lost it at that stage. Um, and just, you know, he said he And that's why at that stage, he just dumped abandoned the bill. I think he came back into Auckland or and was met by a protest group. And he just said, To hell with it, I'm not going to have anything further to do with it. So, um, that certainly helped. There were a lot of other things done, but the pressure was strong, and it was coming from the people where he expected the most support to be. Isn't that so weird, though? That that actually you've you've got the communities that actually, um, would you would think would be behind something like this? Actively kind of actively and vigorously scuttling it. Yes, not just opposing it. They were actively scuttling it, Uh, because many of them had actually come over to the belief themselves that if we got it to 18, what would happen if it got it to 20? What happens to the the younger people in this? Are they going to be? And then you got into this whole debate about, um, what happens if a 21 year old, uh forms a relationship with a 19 year old, got a situation where it's illegal. So the, you know, the the 21 year old is now still subject to potentially to legal, you know, sanctions. And and so some of those debates became ludicrous. You could understand if it was a 14 year old boy, maybe and and well, if it's non consensual, it's automatic. It's rape. Anyway. There's no no issue of whether it's same sex or not. But if it was a, uh, you know, well, let's say a 16 year old and a 19 year old what happens? You know so and in countries that have done this, they found that really, really difficult. They just tend to ignore it the police just do nothing. But, um, that sort of really awakened the debate on it. And that's where um, there was a, you know, huge, I suppose, uh, outpouring of discussion inside the groups. And they were now starting to come much more strongly to, uh if it's taken all these, you know, decades to get it to here to 2021. And there was also, of course, something that I advocated around the country. And I said, um, that when the women's vote came in 18 was 18 94 uh, suffrage for women. Um, it had actually been proposed a year before that, but, um, my understanding had been that it excluded indigenous women. So Maori women were not allowed to vote and women had effectively said, Look, we either all vote or no one votes, simple as that. And then within the year or so, they got rid of that. And by holding that pressure out, which they didn't have to do because they have clearly won it anyway, um, they were able to bring the whole group through. And that was our argument to say, you know, do we let our kids down? Do we let our younger people down at the moment, most crucial in their lives when they're developing their feelings about themselves and their identities, Uh, and sort of firming them up, Do we slap them with the possibility of legal action? Uh, and so sort of became a lot more emotive, but a lot of others remembering their own days of coming through in high school and so on and coming out recognised very strongly that the negative effect of that What was it like trying to keep the energy up over all this period of time when you've had a couple of times in parliament where things have have almost got through, or I mean, what what was it like to to actually kind of just keep on going? Because, I mean, you you're now what, 13, 14 years into into a political campaign? Um, yeah, I think I think the one thing that probably marks most sort of gay men and women out is is the adversity, you know, and just the the sheer opposition that you have to face it doesn't really matter a lot sort of where you are or your circumstances. And I think when you got to the stage in your own life of actually saying right? I've sorted that and I've sorted that and other people have helped. And so on I I think there is an increasing and it certainly happened for me an increasing resilience and a and a feeling that, uh, it can actually be done. Um, and you just don't give up. You just grit your teeth and you keep going and you will lose some. And some things you know will go through wealth and good things will happen. Bad things will happen, but it should not ever What's the word? Distract you from what the actual desire is. And and I think that happened to a lot in the movement. The energy was powered by the fact that you constantly got, you know, personal anecdotal instances of where you know, there had been disaster. Someone might kill himself in the community, which was probably the most common one suicide and happened increasingly and and and and prevalently even over that period because the debate also brought more attention and focus on people you know, in schools in particular. You know, when I was at school, I never really talked about it. But now television, you know, news and so on Is all there the media, the social networks, You know, the question of whether you're gay or not or whatever is very often at the foremost of many teenage boys. And, uh, you know, uh, you know issues. So that sort of determination, I think, and the fact that there's sometimes these quite horrible things were still happening and around, uh, it does today with the marriage. You know, Bill, when I think that, um, you know the marriage Equality Bill, whilst I'm quite happy to let it go on through. I don't have quite the same fervour when I realise that, um, you know that, uh, we've got such huge rates of homophobia and is still coming through. And even recently when I was at the at Mardi Gras in Sydney, you know, some of the comments I heard in the crowd of from Spectators and some of the comments from sort of packs of, you know, young males was just horrific. And I thought, Well, you know, we've come a long way and the wonderful parade and all these things, but there's still a hell of a long way to go. And I think that's what often does the energising when you go home at night occasionally to cry and tear flannel in the bath. That's what you have to keep in mind. One of the other big things that happened in the early eighties was, of course, the appearance of HIV and A I. And I'm wondering how that impacted on, you know, the gay liberation, Um, politics. Um, yes, I whilst obviously I've always been sort of involved in a supportive side in terms of, you know, the whole HIV thing and the AIDS campaign and still am and always will be because it wreaks havoc, you know, in the lives of so many people. Still sadly, um, but also recognising, of course, that the groups affected by this are not far wider and greater than what was just originally pretended IE that it was only the homosexual male community basically was affected. Um, and so, um, whilst on the one hand, that became really important because it became a focus for many people and particularly in in terms of the legislation, Um, how on earth can you treat people and have them come up and deal honestly with what's going on if they are in threat or fear of imprisonment or penalty. Um, there are lots of side issues in terms of privacy, things as well that came through in that, uh, and also in human rights. Because you'd say, Well, you know, just because a person has HIV, it doesn't necessarily mean they can't go to work or do things, or you have to smash the crockery every time you know they touch it with their lips. Um, in fact, you need that sort of supportive programme very much like the early gay liberation days. Um and I suppose I come to the butt. Um, but there is, you know, and there was some effects that I think were somewhat unfortunate. Uh, I had always maintained over those years as the in 86 the decriminalisation and things came through that we would have a considerable lessening of the, um the organisation and the activities of the liberation groups of those activity active groups that would decrease over, um uh the the decades, Um and for the two reasons I suspected, one was because, like, a big issue like this tended to suck people out into something that was deemed to be more important by them at the time. And quite well, I don't have any judgement on that whatsoever. Um, but it took the activists most commonly and secondly, because we then move towards and it's probably still likely to bring quite a debate. But we move towards what I call single issue rights advancement. So you had a whole focus on civil unions. They've now got a whole focus on, uh, you know, marriage, equality and issues in which, in their own right, perfectly laudable. No, no problem at all. But it's tended to sort of fractionate things a lot and that sometimes I fear that those issues are actually distracting from a far bigger issue and a and a wider problem, the issue being a society that at the moment, you know, in my role in education, we acknowledge even government acknowledge we've got 270,000 kids in poverty, and many will say, Well, what the hell's that got to do with, you know, uh, gay liberation? But at that time, we did actually believe that there were lots of equity issues and that the fact that, you know, recent statistics show, uh, that brown schools in New Zealand are getting browner and white schools are getting whiter. Uh, and the DS R ratings of those schools are moving in the appropriate well, not appropriate directions, obviously, because I oppose it. But, you know, in the same directions means that we've got a lot of big issues in there that impact on, um, I suppose gay issues quite severely and seriously. So there is a worry for me that a lot of the action now is very much more by a lot more privileged people, then, uh, was in the past. Now I've always considered myself to be relatively privileged. I didn't come from a wealthy family or anything, but I'd gone to university and done the sorts of things that you know, I accept as as quite a privilege, you know, And it's enabled me to get a good job and and and and not face the sorts of things that many New Zealanders face every day. You know, whether it's poverty or whatever. And so, um, there was a lot more focus on that in those earlier days. I still believe that and that and these developments, with particularly AIDS, dragged a lot of the very much more political, uh, people away to a disease. And, you know, it's a significant and really important disease to deal with. But that feeling was, um the personal is political, you know, and that people say, Oh, well, it's not a political thing but we were able to look after people Absolutely laudable, superb. No, no problem. But it's often, I think, taken away the energy. And some of that focus, um, which I hope may return, certainly work myself towards that. Um, and it has a lot of young people who are enthusiastic there, too, who don't actually like what is going on? Not just for for for for queer people as such. Um, but for the, you know, the particularly young in schools and places like that who are having not a very easy time of it, despite many of us, you know, trying to do our best to improve it. So it was a mixed bunch, uh, a little bit good for some of the things that have happened. But in terms of actual sort of the original gay liberation, uh, it's been a mixed story. So what did actually happen to to organisations like Gay Liberation and the the National Gay Rights Coalition? The Gay rights Coalition, uh, eventually sort of faded in the 18 eighties. Um, I think it was a shame because I think we now actually don't have any linked national advocating organisation except as it may have been in aids, um, in the AIDS organisation and that's always linked off into government too. So there are lots of other sort of issues there. Um, yeah, I don't, um gay liberation. So coalition disintegrated too, because I had said earlier that there was a huge um yeah, tension about how the organisation should go further should it remain a linked national organisation with regional representation and so on, Or should it devolve and should it send the power back into the regions? And I have no problem with either of the arguments, I can see the advantages and disadvantages, but I've always personally felt that New Zealand has always been a you know, a central outward system. You know, government is basically Wellington and parliament and everything moves out. So to organise in opposition to that by not having any representation and networks is to really make it difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. And so I think that tension, the feeling of getting rid of leadership positions and so on, which was a general debate in a lot of the liberation groups at the time, uh, was very much about, you know, um, what sort of way do you want to go? And at the conference in Dunedin, Uh, I think in 80 or 81 it was finally decided to do away with major positions in the organisation and to allow, um, you know, like regional groupings to thrive. And I would have liked and hoped that they did. But I don't believe you know, that that's sadly happened. And because I think even I just think of Gans, uh, that we set up or even pink triangle for a while. Uh, the national thing did actually give some impetus. Some things that have continued on, especially Lagan. I mean, it's that's magnificent, what they do and where they do that. But I don't believe that that would have necessarily just come from a regional and, you know, one a city initiative, although originally, of course, it started in Wellington. But, uh, it was, I think, that, uh, impetus from the national that actually helped it. So that was the difficulty for them. The liberation groups, uh, had a variety of different ways in which they died or faded out. Most commonly was the feeling that now that was decriminalised 92 human rights. Then, you know, not as late as that, because many of them had gone by that time. But things were OK, No problems. I can quietly go out to the suburbs, and and life is not too bad as long as I don't say too much to my boss. Or, you know, uh, and the surprising the number of people today who still don't say very much about their sexuality to their boss or their friends or their families or whatever still happens. But, uh, which is, I think worrying, too. But but anyway, um, those groups didn't have then the what should we say? The immediate appeal? A couple of exceptions, uh, the youth groups tended to start to develop more, which is great. Um, and the other one, of course, is that welfare groups usually set themselves up independently, like the Auckland. Uh uh. Hotline gay line and places like that did, Which is great, too. Do you think in some ways, that through law reform, we've actually lost some kind of community feeling? Uh, yes. Essentially, I think, um, the feeling of of the necessity of having those groups, uh, and support groups through to political groups are not don't have the same impetus that that they had at the time. And I think personally, it's a it's linked, unfortunately to a really big national thing. And that is that Increasingly, I think people feel more and more powerless in our society. And so I don't see it as just being, um, gay liberation thing or women's liberation. Uh, a lot more. You know, I think we're what, now one of the most overworked countries in the world. And we just keep doing it, you know, keep working and working and going home and having dinner and going to bed and getting up and going to work in the morning. And I think, um, there's a lot more pressure in our society to divide us up and to create differences. And sexuality isn't one of the easiest uniting areas you know, I think probably race and culture. And those areas are much easier. Um, you know, uh, much easier to do. Um, is it Desmond Tutu has said something about that? That racism was the ultimate tyranny. Because, um, you know, you could actually identify You can't walk into a room and pretend not to be a Negro, uh, or Hispanic or whatever. Uh, it's very easy to do if you're homosexual, so you can remain completely, you know, completely anonymous if you want to. For your entire life if you want to. And so the whole community of things did start, I think, and have continued to sadly deteriorate. And the ones, of course, who have done the best out of it are the clubs and the bars. Basically, which is a bit ironic, really not how it was intended to be. I haven't actually asked you, um, where were you? Uh, when when law reform homosexual law reform went through in 86. Um, well, it was a little bit different to 80 80 because it was quite interesting in 80. I was actually the Dorian society when it was thrown out. Uh, and I've never received such an incredible hostility and abuse in Wellington. I was in Wellington. Um, in fact, I got back that night on the Sunday night from Wellington, and I had the most incredibly angry and abusive call from a very prominent member of the Christchurch gay community is still around there. And a nightclub owner, Um, you know to say, you know, you know what right have you got to to to block these things and, you know, and I essentially said, Well, you know, you don't want that to happen, you go out and develop a group that does, you know, and and, uh uh, and his attitude was our stuff. The words were a little bit more different to that. But anyway, uh, you know, stuff The under 18, the under twenties. Um you know, um, don't worry about them. We we want to be set up and have the criminal thing taken off. Um, it's ironic now, because the bars are the places where most of the 18 year olds to 20 year olds spending their money and not terribly appreciative. So it was very, very hostile. And that was completely, of course, contrasted after the from the to the, um the Fran Wild, uh, introduction and I was in. Um um I was in Christchurch at the time, as I remember it when it went through and basically just listened to it on the news. Um uh, there was a mixed feeling. I mean, I was very excited and very pleased that, you know, a very large number of us had over a long period of time and at some considerable personal cost in some people's lives, uh, had fought so hard to get that and the fact that it had finally come through as an equality bill, even though it was somewhat unusual, the way that actually came about, Um, because they voted, I think, first of all, for 21. And that went down handsomely. Uh, and then I understand that they voted for 18, which also went down. All the groups moved around, Uh, and of course, 20 went down. And so at the end, it was left for either 16 or let's go through all this again in another few years, and I think that was the important part is that I think Parliament realised at that time, even if it's not the best motive that it weren't going away, that it was going to keep coming back. And so and at the price of the human rights legislation, where people said, well, you know, I don't agree with what we're doing in terms of criminalization, but, uh, you know, I'm not going to be seen to support it is the term many of the MP S used. It meant that the human rights side went down until 1992 and that actually came back and then went through with a raft of other things of disability, I think, and a whole range of other things as well. So yeah, it was a mixed feeling on the night I was with friends at that time. And, uh um, yeah, was, uh, excited. But of course, at this time, and not a lot of the use of the legislation was was not being used particularly much. You know, people were not getting arrested and, you know, and a lot of the entrapment and those things that actually stopped, but at least it it felt that there was finally official and legal recognition that, um, these, uh, relationships, uh, were not to be cast into a criminal light. What about the personal cost to you of actually kind of being this political? What? What? What is it? What has been the cost to you? Um, yes, I've often thought of that. Um, yeah, I think it's certainly been I'd be dishonest if I didn't say it was significant. Um, it's, um it it it puts in its earlier time. It's put, you know, considerable strains, particularly on relationships and particularly on close relationships. Uh, because it also meant that there needed to be, you know, someone that I was with who was also able to cope with, firstly, the level of, you know, scrutiny, publicity, whatever else, Uh, and also, you know, the fact that relationships as such at that time were not the issue that was much further down and civil unions and equality. So, um, it was really incredibly stressful for that. And because you just you know, you it was a constant battle in in your non working hours to to be involved, and that sometimes meant quite a lot of travel, So it there was something of a heavy price, you know, certainly one of my relationships, uh, you know, significantly founded because of the of this. Um, and the second part of it on the personal side, is I suppose it's that sort of common, uh, constant. What's the word? Um, that sort of constant limelight. Everyone thinks, you know Oh, it's lovely to be in the headlines and well, actually, it's not. And I remember Lindsay saying many years ago, just before he died in London, he said, You know, you don't want to This is one of the movements you don't want to be seen to be leading out of, You know, any altruistic or egotistical reasons there are much better movements to get in behind. And he was sort of right because, um, that just sort of meant wherever you go, people sort of know you. And so there are also certain expectations that are placed. Uh, you know, beside you, I've been very lucky. As in leading in the presidency of the Post-primary Teachers Association, there never been any significant difficulties in there I thought there might be. And clearly some members are not happy having one of those people leading the association. But, um, but also, too, you have to recognise that, of course. Um you know, there are other things in life. And it, um you know, sexuality isn't a critical elect an election factor. So it's been a range of things that get you elected to positions. Not just that, um, and but that personal side sometimes makes it incredibly lonely. Um, and it it's also forces and forced me to gather together a number of people. And there's probably about half a dozen now a bit scattered through the world, but that I can talk to about some of these things. Uh, but and you sort of know where you're coming from. You know, um, if I said in a public place, you know, I have some considerable misgivings about marriage equality, uh, the house around, I think, would be considerable. And as I explained earlier, it's not. It's not just, you know, marriage equality. That's the issue. It's the effect that some of this is having in terms of, uh, potentially just taking the focus away. Some of what are more important things like kids getting beaten to death and so on. And so, um, all those things help, but they're very bitsy. So my next question is, what's the next campaign after marriage equality. And I don't think there's actually an answer that anyone's got. I've got plenty of answers that, you know, I think the homophobia one and and schools, and that is just absolutely critical. But, um, you know, that's sort of it's difficult. And one of the other things is, you know, for the marriage equality, too. I find it incredibly curious that it's a nice word for it. Isn't it curious that, uh, an institution that comes from the very central tenants of a sort of judeo-christian culture that has spent what you know, hundreds of years, you know, burning, defiling, killing, Um, women and men who are same sex oriented that somehow one would want to, you know, copy and emulate their one of their central practises, I suppose their worshipping practises I find really strange. I you know, I can shrug my shoulders and say, Oh, well, you know that's the way it is. But it does seem really unusual that we should be so fervently advocating for something that is so, you know, firmly embedded in in Christian culture. And and so I can't say that I'm not uncomfortable when those sorts of issues arise, but, uh, the personal cost. Yeah, I think apart from the isolation, it does restrict your friendship potential. And people do often look at you and in terms of the relationships with you in terms of what you've done and, you know, that's quite nice. It's not a problem with that, but it does. It shouldn't also automatically then shape your you know, your future or what I might do in the future. And that will certainly continue. Robin, you you've spent an extraordinary amount of time in the education sector. I mean, your whole career. I'm thinking, Is it? Yeah. Can you, um, possibly reflect back on that 38 year career and and come from a gay perspective and see how how has it changed for, um, Rainbow people in education? Yes, it's interesting. Over that period of time, there have clearly been, you know, some quite marked changes. Uh, you know, from those very early days, I mean, being a student myself, um, where things were pretty hostile and and, uh, and and huge amounts of ignorance and and misunderstanding, um, very often fears that people have that you appreciate yourself. Just don't simply don't exist. So the education system largely, I think, uh, as a fair comment would be to completely ignore the issue and try to make sure it it never appeared. Um, except where may be incidents of a personal nature affected in communities and schools the by and large. Um, you know, education in those areas, uh, simply placed it in a sort of category of masturbation or other sort of health and health issues. Um, but over certainly, over the last 2025 years, there have been, you know, some quite dramatic changes in in, and some, I think, good improvements. Um, the two areas that are probably focused most on the changes in some curriculum areas whereby, you know, health education now is a lot more comprehensive and engaging. Not that that always means that students are engaged. But but, uh, there's certainly a lot more presented, uh, in in that sort of education area, there's an an overwhelming desire to what shall I How will I describe it? Um um, make the material more relevant in terms of examples. So, um, there is currently a book being, uh, prepared a text on social movements in New Zealand. for a history level three and then one of those is the, um, is a sequence I've just been involved a little bit with on the gay liberation movement and how social movements develop. Um, and that's really good, because there'll be youngsters sitting there who will say, Oh, so that's you know what happens so much more, much closer to themselves. And so the relevance of examples and local examples, uh, has improved dramatically, and that's also been aided by a lot of things, like visits to schools. In those earlier days, a lot of us went round to high schools and their liberal studies programmes. And, you know, they could see a real homosexual, Um, and asked those sorts of questions, Um, and despite you know, very often the jokes and things that were were made at the time, there was most often a pretty real, uh, what should we say? Desire to to to find out what is going on and what was happening and what the situation is, and I think often more so with women than young men. But, uh, but anyway, there are. I think there are reasons for that. But at least that awareness has increased. Um, no doubt the research shows that those who know, um, other lesbian or gay people are always, you know, overwhelmingly more supportive than those who have never met one in their lives, if that's possible to be achieved, um, so that side of it, the curriculum has developed. And then, uh, more of the programmes related to what I call sort of abuse have also made and are starting. I hope to make a difference. Uh, I think generally in bullying, uh, is one area where schools in particular, Education Ministry and so on, Uh, and our our our unions are trying to, as it were, make breakthroughs, uh, in reducing what's actually happening. And, um, one of the aspects of bullying is, in fact, homophobic bullying, uh, quite prevalent in schools and still, unfortunately, very prevalent in some. And while some schools are doing a lot to improve that and developing programmes, they very often see this in a context of a discrimination, Uh, and in human rights, So they'll look at, you know, racial, cultural, um, discrimination and harassment. Harassment. Um, you know, um you know, sexual, uh, not sexuality, gender harassment. And so on, so it it takes a much broader appeal. It's a worry because you need to be careful that you don't sort of lose the specific in the general. You know, people then don't have to focus on homophobia because they can talk about, uh, you know, racial abuse or whatever else. And that's a much easier thing to talk about for them. Uh, but at the same time, it does acknowledge that has been happening, and and and that's a really, you know, a a great development. Um, and it's, I think, just a slow and gradual and greater acceptance of those sorts of issues that are making things better. But there's still, uh, the translation from the theory into the practise is, uh is not always as as good or as glowing. How effective have things like the gay teachers union and more later, the Rainbow Task Force been I. I think I'd say they've been, uh, spectacularly ineffective. Uh, that may seem very harsh, but, um, I think they've been effective and effective in the sense that they've given continued to keep the pressure and the impetus on, you know, um, as it were programmes and the needs, Uh, increasingly, people say, you know, there is a problem. It's called homophobia, and it needs to be dealt with, uh, and probably dealt to, um so that's sort of strongly there. But in terms of translation of the work of these groups, even to teachers who are, uh, in the community and teaching in classrooms, it is not good. And it is not even easy because, um, the identification of a particular person in a school means a whole series of other things. Uh, namely for the school name, their family, parents, whatever. Particularly if it came through crisis. If it's a person simply wanting to set up a support group, whether it be a a, um uh, a teacher or a student, you know, there are a lot of inherent risks, and boards of governors now in our very competitive education system are nervous about, uh shall we say, advancing that they are, you know, queer friendly. Um, because it may well, you know, increase the numbers enrolling in the, uh, you know, in the school, down the road, single sex schools or whatever down the road. And whilst we sort of smile and say, Oh, well, you know this is going to happen. Um, it's a shame that a that it can And B, Of course, it suggests that the attitudes out out there aren't entirely, you know, it's very nice if, uh um, you know, your son is is is gay, and we can deal with that, but mine certainly isn't. So I don't I don't have to worry about your issues. And that in itself, in the longer term becomes a, uh, a significant concern. I think that, uh, too, that the other thing about the groups is that they are just there are very few of them. And so, as we found in terms of increasing the density and the the numbers involved in the wider liberation type movements and the gay rights, um, shall we say, uh, sort of freedom movements is that they slowly increased in size and and, you know, public. Uh, what should we say? Visibility. And also in terms of public opinion, uh, and discussion and debate. Uh, that's very hard in education, particularly because you're teaching Children. So the whole hideous, um, distraction of paedophilia comes into its paedophiles. And, um, you know, there have been enough instances from the Peter Ellis case through, uh, sadly, to make men very nervous about coming into any education job that requires, you know, close physical contact with students and and particularly in early childhood and also in in primary, even though there may be people who have never, ever shown any indication and have no association whatsoever, uh, with anything related to those sexuality issues. So, uh, that's sad, because the number of men, uh, reducing their contact in the education service is continuing to fall dramatically. And I think this is certainly one of those areas. So, um, the inability of groups to be able to help in those areas, uh, really does has caused some restrictions and some problems. What? What do you think the biggest challenges are for, um, Rainbow students nowadays? Hm? The biggest challenge is probably survival. Um, and I think it's as much an emotional mental survival as it is physical. I think that, um for many of them, um, developing the opportunities for them to have, you know, access to support and services, professional or not, doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who comes out as a teenager is obviously psychologically imbalanced or whatever. Um, so that's that is important. And a huge challenge, but also, um, uh, a very major attack. And I use that word, uh, quite deliberately on the issues related to particularly to homophobia. Uh, they are areas that the youngsters themselves can't easily combat because they are, you know, part of the sort of wider mores of the sort of society. You know, They're part and they very often, um, you know, linked into the dynamics of the groups that they come out of, uh, the term, uh, homophobia, phobias is is interesting where you know you can have a a group of young people who are making abusive comments to someone else and one of the group, uh, will also be doing that themselves. But then might later turn to me and say, I'm not including you in this Mr Duff. And you think, um, in this abuse, why are you not or, you know, has a brother who is gay. What's happened is they have assumed that because the group is clearly illustrating homophobia or, you know, hating gays, queers, whatever that therefore, you know, to be part of the group, you need to exercise that even if it's personally distressing for you to do so and numbers of instances where the number of people initiating that may be very small. But the rest carry on into the abusive behaviour because they see that socially, you know what you're required to do or to show that you're part of the group, particularly with males. But, um, you know, it does happen with females, So it's getting, um, that to be acknowledged and dealt with, uh, in classrooms. Um, the behaviour of teachers have to increase their awareness of you know what is happening and that it is not now sufficient to remain silent when abuse occurs. You know, just simply not saying anything and avoiding it. Um sends a message, but it's not the message you want to to deal with. Um, and thirdly, I think, uh, which I mentioned a little bit on earlier was the curriculum side and that more examples of you know either the local people, local people are involved. Uh, is also, uh, a huge and important part to hit the the two big things, of course. And that's still the lack of visibility. Um, even if you look at, uh, you know, homosexual males in, in in shows on television, You know, there are certain, you know, the the type. The type, uh, setting is pretty clear, isn't it? The stereotypes are there, you know, from are you being served through that of getting youngsters to feel comfortable that they don't have to be like that? Or that if they think that they are homosexual, they have to run around and in frocks and and in high heels and pretty clothes. If they want to do that, that's fine. But not that they feel that the condition for belonging to the group, uh, is going to remove something that they feel about themselves. Um, so that increasing call, I suppose for, uh, what should I say? Acceptance of diversity and acceptance. A really genuine acceptance of diversity. People say we accept their policies don't always reflect it. Um, but to bring about an increasing, I suppose confidence, Uh, particularly with younger people where I think a lot of the major, um you know, major changes in the future are likely to come. And, uh, the support is certainly pretty thorough for me for that to continue and to assist and support. Speaking of support, you're also involved in the Canterbury region with gay link, which is, uh, a support service. Um, can you tell me about that? And some of the other things that you're doing nowadays? Um, yes, I've reduced myself considerably from the direct sort of phone counselling and and that sort of work, I found that also very gruelling, of course. Uh, but also, um, uh, there are lots of other people who are able and qualified, uh, and and and suitable for that role. So I I've largely focused and and focusing my time now and then on into my semi-retired is to to to look at two areas in particular. One is what I call the sort of our history, I suppose, is the best day. Uh, I'm constantly astounded by the lack of knowledge. You know, I might say ignorance, but it's it's not an intentional thing. It's just the way it's happened of many of our younger, um, queers and queer who, um, um who are simply not aware of a lot of the things that have actually happened. And when I've said, you know, you could get 14 years or seven years in jail. You know, they're just absolutely flabbergasted. Um, it's mind boggling to them to think, you know, just because you touched a guy, you can go to jail. Um, so there's that negative side of their history, But there's also a huge amount of the positive side of it of the people who have, you know, have worked incredibly hard over many years and decades back. And it doesn't matter whether you go into sort of history and back into into the colonies or whether you stay within, uh, within Maori culture, that they have very rich traditions still of same sex involvement and behaviour. And so it's on the one hand, you know, identifying the the the hideous bits. Uh, but recognising they don't have to overrule the lot. And so that sort of support and acknowledgement is really important. So oral history, I'm particularly interested. I'm hoping to to do some work and support more support for Gans, the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. A very noble, uh, group and very, uh, important group. Uh, and I'm hoping personally to start developing some, um, database work where I can develop. Um, shall we say, sort of sketches of people and in time, much of which is starting to come out now that can be accessible for people who are putting history glimpses together and can use things to, uh, to enlighten and inform as they go to, you know, women's groups or whatever else. So there's that sort of history side and the other is, uh, certainly for for me is the an attempt to try and resuscitate, although it can't happen quite like that, but because it needs a different approach. But, um, to to should we say, foster some more interest and enthusiasm among groups themselves in the whole sort of political side of things and that, um, we do have to focus on some of these, uh, you know, these issues and we need lesbians and gays to do it. And I know as I move around and talk, there are a lot of young people who are not entirely satisfied with what's going on and the, you know, the clubs, they like the clubs on the weekend and they like the bars and enjoying them, dancing and enjoying themselves, and that's great. But they also feel there are other things they'd like to do, But again, they feel that sort of powerlessness that you know, many of us through our, you know, in our respective communities, whatever that's focused on often do. And it's so it's encouraging them and and, uh, you know, giving them opportunities to experience the huge energy those young people have, uh, as well as many skills they have. But they don't always realise they actually have them, so that site will become important over the next few years. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. 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The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/robin_duff_profile.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089533. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.