The title of this recording is "Rick Gerharter". It is described as: Rick talks about his photo-journalism career, including the early years of photographing AIDS activism in San Francisco. It was recorded in San Francisco, United States of America on the 18th June 2012. Rick Gerharter is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 1 hour and 12 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Rick talks about his photo-journalism career, including the early years of photographing AIDS activism in San Francisco. The content in the recording covers the decades 1930s through to the 1980s. A brief summary of the recording is: The podcast features an in-depth interview with Rick Gerharter, detailing their experiences in photojournalism and their significant role in documenting the poignant moments of AIDS activism in San Francisco during the 1980s. The interview was conducted by Gareth Watkins in San Francisco on June 18, 2012. Gerharter shares the story of their journey from growing up on a farm in South Dakota to moving to San Francisco. Initially skilled in graphic design, the individual's encounter with photography during a transformative trip to South America led them to pursue it professionally upon returning to San Francisco in 1985. Gerharter's foray into photography coincided with the peak of the AIDS epidemic and the surge of activism around it, providing them with a substantial market for their poignant images. They attended City College to learn the technical aspects of photography, particularly black and white film development, and quickly realized a preexisting aptitude for visual composition due to their background in graphic design. The interview also captures their personal account of being gay in San Francisco, discussing the challenges and the vibrant gay community present before the full impact of the AIDS crisis was felt. With an influx of gay people, the city depicted a unique cultural dynamism, enabling creative expression that was resisted by certain segments of society and the law at the time. Their work focused significantly on the activism revolving around HIV/AIDS, which was predominantly street-based. The photographs captured the essence of the period, portrayed through demonstrations, blockades, and "zaps" - unconventional protest tactics aimed at generating immediate attention. Gerharter mentions working consistently with the Bay Area Reporter, a local gay newspaper, which solidified their place within the community. Their work is framed by a sense of historical documentation, preserving the emotions and stories of the LGBTQ+ community during those critical years and beyond. The discussion also delves into the technical aspects of photography, from their preference for natural lighting and in-camera composition to minimal post-production editing. Gerharter reflects on the transition from film to digital photography and its impact on their work process. Ending on a contemplative note, Gerharter emphasizes the lasting value of documenting momentous cultural and social shifts for posterity and seeks to maintain the integrity and accessibility of their extensive archive of images, well-organized by date and searchable tags. The full transcription of the recording begins:  I grew up on a farm. A small farm in South Dakota. I'm 60 years old. Um, I lived there. It was right on the outskirts of a small town of 25,000 people. Uh, I grew up there until I graduated from high school and then went to college in Saint Paul, Minnesota, and lived in Minnesota for seven years. And then, in 1977 moved to San Francisco. Uh, for a number of reasons, I thought it'd be easier to come out. I had been here visiting and really liked it. I knew there were a lot of gay people here. I had a place to stay with some family friends, so I came not necessarily with the intention of staying, but within two weeks I had a job. So then I ended up staying and I'm still here. What was the job? I was a A in a graphic shop. That was really my skill was graphic design type setting. I did forms design. I did a real variety of graphic related jobs. And when did that move into photography? In 84 and 85 a friend and I had travelled around South America for a year, and I had always sort of taken snapshots and things like that, but not very seriously at all. Nor had a serious camera, nor really had anyone in my family that, you know, that that I was learning from. And that trip in South America changed my life in a number of ways, one of which, I it prompted me to learn photography and take that up as a profession that the the travelling was just so fantastic. And I just enjoyed doing it and realised the only way I could really do it uh uh, for an extensive period of time was to somehow make money from doing it. Um, So I came back here to San Francisco in 85 and 86 went to City College here in San Francisco, their photography department, and primarily learned how to develop black and white film. Um, I realised pretty early on, I'm sure because of my graphic experience that visually I could compose a picture pretty well and think the more graphic elements of photography, I pretty much had already, um, somewhat without realising it. But, you know, once I was with other students who were having problems with that I realised. Oh yeah, that's not really something that that that I mean, it's always a challenge to compose a photograph, but I had a lot there already, just from my visual experience previous. So I went to school for about a year and a half, learned how to do photography and then started selling photographs. I was type sitting at the time, um, and started selling photographs and had the good fortune of starting this right At the time that the AIDS epidemic was, I don't know about peaking, but it was certainly at a high boil and the act up there was a lot of activism. There was a lot of things to photograph at that time, and also the there was an in some cases international interest in this and often national interest. So the market to sell these photographs was was substantial, and I've supported myself with photography, you know, since that time. So for a freelancer, that's essential. I'm wondering pre AIDS era. Could you paint a picture for me of what San Francisco was like for a newly openly gay man that came well, my story is probably different than At least that's probably what the what's been talked about most. I came and it was sort of awkward. I came out very slowly. It was rather awkward. I I was not very sexually active. I did not participate in the bathhouse scene. Um, I was not really a bar goer, so that which I think a lot of people associate with that time wasn't really a big part of my life. And be before I became a photographer in the gay community, I really wasn't that involved with the community. I had gay friends and all of that, but was not active in anything really did my my work. And that was that, Um, so for me, it was, Well, first off, it's an incredible city in many ways beyond the fact that there were so many gay people here, I think there's fewer now. It's definitely much less a gay city now than it was in the late seventies. And, um um, the early eighties, absolutely partially because of AIDS and greatly because of the economic situation. So it it, you know, for the first time there was a neighbourhood, there was a section of a city that wasn't that was gay. It was defined as a gay neighbourhood, not a bohemian neighbourhood or an artistic neighbourhood. And so there was an incredible amount of excitement and opportunity. Um, part of it, I think, because there was also a lot of resistance. It was Anita, Brian. And, you know, it was the laws weren't there. There was in San Francisco also, including, you know, at the time she was mayor now Senator Dianne Feinstein, she was not, and never has been that supportive of she'd never been in a gay parade, for example, Veto domestic partnership Bill in in the early I forget which year. But in that period, So even in San Francisco there was a great deal of resistance to equal rights and just the visibility of of gay people. So that added an element to of excitement and an element of of visibility that isn't here so much anymore. Because so many of those those victories have been won, I guess. And laws have been changed, and and, uh, it's it's quite a different atmosphere in that sense. Um, it was much cheaper, so people had more time to be to be creative or I like to say people come here to San Francisco to be weird, which is a has been true from the very days of the Gold Rush in the 18 forties. And so it it was easier to do that at that time because you just didn't have to spend so much time earning money to pay rent. And everything you know at the time was a quarter. Now it's $2 for a ride. So it it the fast pass for the month. The monthly pass was $15 and now it's like 70 or $80 just so that made a big difference, I think, and also attracting young people, young gay people to come to San Francisco again. Contrary to I think a lot of the myth Generally, gay people are not wealthy at all, and they tend to be in the lower socioeconomic levels, Uh, the majority of them So I i it it's made a real difference in the gay scene here. And then the eighties came along and and aids suddenly rear its head. It did, um, at that time when we were in South America, there for 80 between 84 and 85 There's a real markable di, you know, noticeable difference before and after of what had happened. And again, my experience might be a bit different because I had those early years I lost no close friends whatsoever. And even the the the people that I knew who died were sort of just kind of acquaintances. So for many, many years, it never really affected me very deeply and very closely because none of my close friends died. They, um many of them have been infected, and now some of them have died at this point in time. But in those early years, that wasn't the case, so But it did make a huge difference, of course, in the neighbourhood and just the whole environment because there was so much death and at first it was very mysterious. And it was also seemingly as a consequence of a sexual liberation in a period of time, where for really the first time in, uh, who knows? But, you know, one of the the the only times in history where there's been an environment where gay sexuality has been so available and so so visible in a sense, too, and so it it It was a huge contrast, and it was a huge change from this idea, that of San Francisco being a gay mecca, being a place that's a paradise for gay people, which, of course, was never true. But certainly after AIDS started to hit, it was much less true. Plus, many people died, of course, and these were people who added so much to the culture, and you know where the creative highlights. So they added so much to what made San Francisco a special place for gay people and a special place for everyone because of all the gay people here and the influence that we have throughout the city and so many of those people died. So why do you say Gay maker not being true? There's always been resistance, I think, in Proposition A, you know, the same sex marriage bill of what is it two years now? I believe there was like 1/5 of the people in San Francisco voted for that, so there's always been, you know, a substantial chunk of people in this city who don't think gay people should have equal rights, so that's always been there and and they have influenced In some extent, the Catholic Church has always been very homophobic in this city, and in fact the guy who's now the head of the doctrine of the faith, you know, like the the the real ideologue of the Vatican was the archbishop here lavada William Lavada. He was the archbishop. And so in that time, it was one example. They were very influential with Feinstein videoing the domestic partners Bill. So the it it it I think it was a mecca in the sense that people could be very visible and you could live, uh, essentially among gay people within the neighbourhood. But even within the city, you would go and just do a normal daily transaction. And the odds that the person you were dealing with was was gay or lesbian was pretty high in some cases, you know, so I i it In that sense, there was a really broad acceptance and broad opportunities for gay people to be open and be participate in all aspects of the city. When you went to City College in 1985 to study photography, was it photojournalism that you did? It was specifically photo. It was It was what I was. I've always been a newspaper junkie, and so that's the area of photography I was interested in. I was not interested in, like tabletop product photography or or studio type photography. I was not. I was not interested in that. So why photojournalism? Well, but like I said, I always been in. I've always been interested in the news and politics, and that's, you know, things in life, I guess. And so it was just kind of a natural for for where I could combine that interest with an artistic interest or like a creative interest that I've also had. I guess always that side of the brain in me is much more developed than whatever the other side is or the other side. I don't know which is which one's for math, right? And one's for creativity. So you began taking, uh, images in the mid eighties and and and selling them Yeah, 88 I think, was the first photograph I published was in 1988. I think when Nancy Pelosi, our our representative who was speaker of the House, was her first campaign against Harry Britt, who was the supervisor who replaced Harvey Milk when he was assassinated. It was a very bitter contest. And, uh, that was my first. They were at a candidates forum. What are the main qualities when you're in something like a a meeting or something like that? So how how do you capture the action? What? What? What do you look for? Well, I mean, I and I do a lot of that type of work where people are at a a panel or they're speaking And that and so you're just focusing on usually one individual, Um, because I'll take a photo of the whole panel, but it's just sort of a straight on shot. That's not very interesting. Some things I look for is gesture. When I'm focus on one person gesture, I certainly try to get the microphone out of the way if possible. I looked for a clean background, if possible, or a background that speaks to what they are like. Sometimes a flag will work that way. Um, some other angles you can, you know, focus on one person say they're lined up on a table, but but one's a bit forward to the next. So there you can see, like several heads in a row. It doesn't happen very often, but that's always something to look for. Um, I often try to get two people. You know, when you're in that situation, the speaker next to the person that I'm focusing on will also be in the photo and try to get them usually out of focus, hopefully out of focus, right? But try to get some interaction there. At least I'm looking at the speaker or some other hand gesture I. I work a lot, try to get pans and things a lot. I think they're interesting. Is that kind of sense of movement that some of it, Yeah, you know, it's hard taking photographs of people speaking because there's a lot of times when they look really weird. So III. I think it's quite difficult to get a good photograph of a of a person speaking, So you have to take with digital. You can just snap away and there's not such a plus, you know when you have something, whereas with film, of course you didn't know when you had something or not when you walked away from the assignment, So can you take me through some of the uh, the the the many kind of, um, actions or events that you did in the in the eighties. What what were some of the standouts? Well, I, I focused a lot more on the activism and the street things. I have relatively few photos of the caregiving part of it or the medical part. I have some, but not that many. Mostly it was the street activism and some of the different organisations that that came up that were created in that time say, with the quilt, for example, which is a as an activism. So I did a lot of street things. Demonstrations, blockades, you know, sit ins, zaps. I was tuned into zaps quite frequently, so I would be able to be there to take photographs. What A is when you just go, like, say, in an office? Um, here's a zap. And it was at the immigration service. This would have been like in about 1990 I think. Or 1991 people just walked into the office here in San Francisco and just occupied it. Just sat down, you know, sat behind desks. Whatever they would do, that was a zap or say a person is speaking, that is, you know, like saying stupid things in some way people would go into the the speech. You know, normally it's just an audience. And then, during a speech, jump up and scream or or do something like that, interrupt the speech in some way. So I was tuned and and I, I guess 11 thing also to speak to about the strength of the photography. And one thing I felt in school is that the strongest photos, particularly of journalistic type photos or documentary photos, are people who are from photographers who have some involvement with the community that they're photographing. And fortunately like as I said, you know, that was happening when I was just starting to be a photographer. So I knew a lot of these people that were involved in these demonstrations and that were being arrested and that were were planning them so they would tip me off. Um, also another aspect of this. At the time, I was and continued to work regularly with the Bay Area Reporter, which is the weekly gay paper here in San Francisco. And so that was a steady outlet for for that work at that time. So those kind of demonstrations where they are so fluid, how do you position yourself to to capture the right moments? How? Well, I guess the first thing you do is you observe. You really try to watch and see what's going on and try to predict as well as you can, where things are going. And as I said, you know, to to know what they're planning to do is really helpful. Of course, Um, there's other times where you can. I remember demonstrations where just by the presence of the police and the quality like the numbers or what was there, there was a different I would expect a different reaction from the police I. I would expect a different sort of the atmosphere and tenor to the to the demonstration or the march, Um, because I think the police were very provocative. In most cases, I believe the police are the provocative agents and certainly in the act up demonstrations when there was not a black block like there is now kind of an anarchist block and so many demonstrations that are really out to to bust windows and things like that that really wasn't true. So much of act up and so so much of the action was and and the violence that I saw was provoked by police over in this period of time. What would they do? Beat people up, hit people, push people back, use jab, take their night sticks and jab people, um, arrest people just on the spot to get them off the scene. Things like that. Observing, I think is the is is the main thing to see and then try to position yourself in such a way. Having a right lens helps Having a wide angle lens helps when you're in a really tight situation. That's confrontational. Um, I tended to be kind of cautious because even with press credentials, they oftentimes didn't care, and I didn't really want to get hit. I got hit once, um, by the California Highway Patrol at a demonstration at a drug boroughs welcome, which made the first really widely available AIDS drug a ZT. But it was outrageously priced and blah blah blah. So anyway, there were demonstrations focused on on their building, and, uh, I got jabbed by a It was yeah, it was incredibly painful. They almost killed Huerta, an activist in the demonstration that was the San Francisco police. They almost killed her because of the damage they did by jabbing, taking their night stick and jabbing you like in the kidney area and things like that. So I consequently was trying to be very cautious when there was a confrontational situation because I didn't want to get ahead. And so it's always a challenge. There's usually other photographers in your way, um, plus people, but you kind of just snap and and try to quickly compose and hope for the best. To some extent, it is, you know, for a big deal of photography. A big aspect of photography is luck, particularly when you're doing street photography and unscripted photography a bit. A lot of it is a lot, Um, what else would I do in those situations? Just really try to keep my my my eyes and ears on what was going on. And, of course, sometimes it's impossible because the demonstrations are too large and you just it's you just can't do it. Um, I think I focused perhaps too much on signage, trying to get people with signs and and what they carry and that, um, like one aspect of a news photograph is it needs to kind of convey what the essence of this issue is or what the story is, so that makes it more of a challenge. But it also puts some limitations on it, I think. And oftentimes the bare reporter will only use one photograph from a scene. So perhaps if they use more than one, you could have, like more of an action, sort of seen in a more contemplative individual or a group of individuals, because there was a lot of sadness in these demonstrations because they were all AIDS related and they were motivated by people dying and people not having access to medicine and the government not caring. And Reagan not saying in the word for years until I don't know how many thousands of people died and just this sort of sense that you don't really care if we die or not. So there's a lot of anger having a press pass, like for the Bay Area reported. Did that help or hinder you? Oh, it definitely helped. Absolutely. Um, yes, because it gives you credibility. It it it it doesn't allow you to go anywhere. Certainly because it it's issued by the police department so they can say no. You can't go there because and they can, you know, they can take your parents pass away, too. I assume I haven't never heard of it happening, but they did take our parking passes away, which were quite convenient at the time. But I guess that was a state issue. Uh, anyway, but no, it is It is very helpful. It is. It is gives you a sense of legitimacy. And there's also times, particularly when say national political figures would come and that they you could not go into the press conference or whatever without a press credential and issued by by people. But generally by a law enforcement agency. These events are being photographed. I'm assuming on the film. Yes, it's mostly black and white, some colour, but it was mostly black and white film. Yeah, and one of the aspects of film is you can't just take thousands of photos like digital. So how did you train yourself to just snap the moments you wanted? I? I, you know, position yourself in such a way that that you can kind of reframe the image, say, get a police line with a demonstration or or with, say, a line of people sitting down with a line of police officers. So, you know, position yourself so you can get both of those aspects would be one way. And then if they start to arrest people, you know, you're you're there, that you can kind of at least have both a fuller picture of what the event is about or what the story is, what the news hook is of it. So that would be one way to try to manoeuvre and and try to. I try to compose before, um, otherwise it was just a lot of chance, I guess, and take, you know, taking photos. Taking film is cheap, relatively to all the other effort to take the photo, so just snap away. How many frames would you take in a in a particular march? I don't think I've ever shot a huge amount, and particularly with digital, I hear these people. They go to these events and they shoot hundreds of photographs and, you know, imagine the editing process and I'll and they all come back with like 200 photographs, but I edit as I go with digitally. I do. I dump stuff all the time. Um, what I, you know, at a demonstration, say, a regular kind of sit in that maybe lasted an hour to two hours. I probably would take 3 to 4 rolls, 36 exposures each around and they're not a huge amount. I don't think you know, I don't really know what other photographers take, but I was kind of judicious, Tried to be tried to be and still am with digital. I guess it's that that working out when is the moment to to take that? Yeah. Yeah, it's I I'm not sure I'm real good at that. Actually, I feel like I've missed so many things, but I'm probably every photographer does. But I've caught things, too. So you just try to presen what's gonna happen, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. That's one of the things I tell myself. And another thing is, I tell myself everything doesn't need to be photographed. So to kind of, you know, when you miss a shot or when you don't have what what really would you think would be better. Some way to sort of face the reality of photography. Did the protesters ever turn on you? No, that never really happened. You know, I knew a lot of them. Um, and I really try, You know, I feel I'm a journalist, so IIIIII I have a sense of neutrality. Certainly I work for a community based newspaper. So I think it's a bit different than a general newspaper that the paper and I have, you know, points of view that I want to express in my photography. So no. So so consequently, you know, II I work quite closely with them at the same time, trying to keep a distance and, I think succeeded to a great extent. And I know some cops that have been around for a long time that that we chat and and, you know, have have a It's really an acquaintanceship, like a professional friend. Acquaintanceship it. It's certainly not a friendship, and we never socialise. But, you know, I'm in terms with them. So how did you get involved in the Bay Area reporter? Well, I was type setting at the time, and I was wanting to earn my living by being a photographer. I was still in school, so I just started, you know, contacting publications for photography work. And would you be interested in this as a freelancer? I would take photographs and then try to sell them, you know, after the fact. And they just started giving me assignments. And then on october 6th, 1989 there was an act up demonstration that led to, um quite a dramatic police sweep through the Castro. Um, and that then led to some incidences of police violence, which led to extensive court cases. And it was it was quite a big, um, event overall. And I got some really dramatic photos from that period or from that event, uh, because the cops were just acting, you know, they were They're just, like, acting like storm troopers, and they trapped people and build buildings and things like that as they swept the street. And the editor of the B HR at the time was really impressed and just started to give me assignments. And then for one year, I was actually on staff at the paper, which was a very unusual for the paper. And it didn't really suit either of us. I don't think it certainly didn't suit me because I wanted to travel for more than, you know, two weeks a year. And so after a year, and I wanted to go to, I think I went to Europe for like, six months. That was the end of that. But the paper has been incredible in continuing to use me. I'll come back from, you know, being gone for two or three weeks, and I'm an assignment the next day. So they have just been incredibly supportive of that kind of a schedule for me and I. I really appreciate it because I would not be happy doing one or just one or the other. I like doing both. So that's how it started. You know, I'm I've just had good relationships with the various editors there over the years. Um, you know, I'm dependable and I. I meet my deadlines and I get my captions accurate and things like that which are essential to editors and takes a lot of worry away from them when they have a photographer who is like that. So I think that's been one reason why they've continued to work with me and I think I've taken a lot of nice photographs over the years, too, some of which have been published, some of which have not been published, some of which have been cropped, some of which have not been cropped. But it's the nature of being a photographer, really, particularly in news. So not only at these demonstrations are you taking the photographs, but you're also having to get people's names and and caption the In some cases, Yeah, my rule of thumb is there's no more than five. If there's more than five, you don't really have to. But if people are lined up, yeah, and I'm probably not as conscientious about that as what others are but tend to get names. So what kind of assignments would would the reporter be giving you? Well, you know it it It's kind of special in some ways, because being that gay people are so integrated into all aspects of this city, I photographed everything from sports to fashion shows to news conferences to, you know, murder scenes to been in the jail hospital scenes, not always for the BAR, but for some of the other, uh, other other clients that I've had, too. But for the BAR, it was, you know, a lot of Yeah, break it down, I guess, would be a lot of news, news related things, certainly in a lot of various periods of time. But demonstrations that's really calmed down. But demonstrations, parades and marches and things like that, Um, performance, drag queens and different performance bands or or cabaret, things like that. So it was a huge variety sports. I did quite a bit of sports at one time, which I don't like to do, and they don't really cover sports very as they did. So I would have to go like a softball game every Sunday, for example, when it was in softball season. And so I don't do that anymore. But those are some of the assignments over the years that I've had. And what about the type of equipment that you're using in the field? Well, I've always used icons. Not by choice, really. But when I went to buy my first serious camera at a camera exchange, that's what they had. So I just stuck with icons, which I think these days more, um, news photographers use cannon actually than icon, so I just I basically carry one camera body, Um, sometimes two. And I'll carry three lenses at maximum. Sometimes I don't need my really long lens, so I won't carry that because it's quite heavy. But the focal range is from about 12 millimetres to 200. I believe around in there in three lenses, and it took me a while to get that down to what I needed. You know, I did a bit of experimentation at the beginning, but this and a flash of a flash. Um, this simple, you know, relatively small, um, system works for me, and I'll carry two bodies sometimes, too. Um, certainly, when I travel, I'll carry it as a backup. And then on other things parades and stuff like that, I'll usually carry two bodies. We've talked about some of the kind of, uh, confrontational demonstrations and events, but I guess something like a a pride parade. It's quite a different atmosphere, and it's quite a different way of capturing. Yeah, in some ways, you know, sort of the atmosphere is very different. The the thing one thing that's similar is the movement. There's a lot of movement in parades as there is in marches and demonstrations and activities like that. So you know, being able to work with that, there's some similarities there being able to walk backwards. For example. There's some similarity these there, Um, but there again, there's there's spontaneity, for sure. But yet, you know, year after year, the parade is essentially the same. Um, there's not a huge variation, so it's kind of going out and visually recapturing things. Um, you know, there's always different people involved, and there's different floats and groups involved. But essentially, it's taking the photograph of the same thing year after year. And, you know, try to get animated people along the route. Um, find some some contingents, get more of a response from the audience and others. So perhaps spend more time with them that to continue to walk with them longer to get more audience shots, you always look for colour. Look for things that that look for diversity frequent, you know, constantly looking for the mix of people to reflect the the mix of people who live here and who come here, you know. So there's that and look for colour. Certainly look for objects to positions and just kind of some of the basic tenets of any photograph. Repetition is something I look for a lot, Um, try to capture the the size of the event, that that's kind of a challenge, because you can't get high very easily and try, you know, getting in buildings along the route and doesn't really work. You kind of have to be in the middle of the street to really see. And so that's been kind of a that's been that's been a difficult thing to try to get some of the the norm of the event. Um, we have been on the top of City Hall, the Doman City Hall and Civic Centre, where the celebration is been up there a couple of times, was once with Ian McKellen, who was he was in New Zealand for quite a while. Wasn't he with Lord of the Rings, right? Anyway, he was the grand marshal that year, so went with him and some other people up to the top. That was very cool, that that was really very interesting, and you can get a just a great panoramic view of the thousands of people that were in Civic centre at the celebration after the parade. Otherwise in the parade. Like I said, it's sort of the same thing year and year. It's kind of the same list I always want. Rainbow images, hunky men, families, diversity. Um, clever costumes, colourful costumes, those sorts of things. Look for people who have not been in the parade before, groups that have not been in the parade before, groups that may come from somewhere else, other parts of the country or the world to be in this parade here in San Francisco. It must be quite hard, though, when you've got something year on year, and it could be so easy to fall into a kind of cliche of Oh, we'll just do this photo. We'll just do that photo. But the photos I've seen of yours don't do that. Well, thank you, because it's a real challenge. It is. It's a real challenge, and I think with digital it, it's an an easier challenge. Digital. I think digital is maybe a better photographer, Um, because I can check my work as I go and see what's not working or what isn't. On the other hand, it can, uh, sometimes I feel like it makes me a lazier photographer because if I'm on an assignment, I basically need one image. And if I get that image, you know I can go home in a sense. But I don't usually. And I, I really try not to some, it depends how I feel, but I try not to stop at that point, Um, but it is a challenge to be to be fresh. It is, and like, you know, how many drag queen performances have I photographed, and part of what you know makes it fun and makes it. It helps with. The challenge is that the creativity you know of gay people is just endless. So there's always something new and and different and funny or clever with drag to photograph. Plus, it's a very animated, you know, when people are lip synching or when they're singing. But most of them lip sync, you know, it's sort of it's sort of exaggerated emotion, so those are fun to capture, and again I try to capture hands and gestures and things like that. But it is a challenge, absolutely, to try to be fresh. Yeah, it is. I'm wondering if you can talk for a moment on, um, just the interaction with people when you're photographing people, Are you Are you going up to them saying, Can I take your photograph or are you doing it more of a a long distance type thing, but you do some of both, But most I go up because I need to get the names and and the implied permission If they're on the street and things like that. You don't really need a model release. Generally for some usage, as you do certainly commercially. But for journalistic and news editorial purposes, you generally don't need a model release. So but I, I do need their names. And so I Yeah, I generally and you know, I. I have very, very little resistance because so much of the work that I do is within the community that knows the newspaper and I assume respects the newspaper because I hardly ever get rejected, if ever I'm not gonna have my photo in that paper. I don't know that that's ever happened, actually, and I've done this almost 25 years, 23 years, I guess something like that. And so that really helps I. I do. Plus, I always feel a bit of a part of the community. I do usually. Not always, you know, like when Fred Phelps. I don't know who he is. He's an A Baptist nutcase. From where is he from? Wichita, Kansas, I think. And one of the things they do is they'll pick at funerals, of all things, because they were gay or something. They're just complete nut cases anyway. They come here, you know, They come here frequently, so I approached them. They generally won't give you your name, but I still have to approach them and stuff. And that's always a bit uncomfortable for me. I don't like to be around those people. Although they've given me a couple of great photos, I feel that that's them. How do you think the parades have changed in the in the 23 or so years that you've been photographing them? I've been going to them since 78. Um, well, they, you know, they somewhat reflect the movement. In general, for example, the name, uh, has changed. I think when I first was going, it was called the Gay Freedom Day Parade, and now it's just called pride, which doesn't even say gay, you know, it's completely neutralised and for me, very unsatisfactory. And I don't really like using the word pride. Does that imply that you're not proud the rest of the year? And I? I think it just it de Degas it so much and so I don't like using the word pride. I like, you know, it was gay liberation to begin with and then became gay. Freedom Day. And I guess that's what I prefer. And I maybe think people Well, certainly gay people don't have freedom. No way. Not even in this country, you know, not even this city. But so that's one thing that has changed. Um, the parade has gotten much more commercial, extremely more commercial floats that are sponsored by you know, everybody, all these big, awful corporations like Wells Fargo and such things like that. So there's a huge difference, and the celebration has gotten much bigger. There used to be a a time. This is sort of going back. Before I started to photograph it, there was one stage, so the celebration was focused on that stage. There was a sense that everybody was there for more or less similar purposes. Now there's something like 20 stages, so there's really a dispersal of the energy and kind of the the sense that this is a community that that is unified for for for we all are different. And there's all these, you know, different. We are everywhere, certainly. But there's also this real strong unity for for who we are about being gay people. And I think that's lost has been lost in the celebration because of this dispersal. Perhaps there's no other way to do it because it's gotten so large. And one reason it's been able to get so large is because all of the commercial sponsorships, which is, you know, it's It's somewhat of a vicious circle in my mind. And secondly, people want to dance and party at this celebration. They don't just want to listen to to speakers, so to have that combined from one stage is probably not possible at this point. But something's certainly been lost in the largeness of the parade. Um, in terms of who's in the parade has that. I mean, that's certainly changed. You know that there's more families, there's certainly and there's different issues that have come up that have been more prominent like, you know, marriage. Equality was never an issue 10 years ago that was very visible in the parade. I wouldn't say it wasn't. It was completely invisible because there's been marriage activists for decades. But it wasn't at the the importance that it had been in in, you know, in years a few years ago, for example, so that immigration has been more of an issue. You know, certain political propositions that have been on ballots have highlighted have highlighted have been highlighted in in different parades over the years. Uh, at one point, for many years there were no barricades along the side, so there was much more of a sense that, uh, that audiences could participate rather than Here's a parade marching by. And here's all these people watching it. There was much more sense that oh, you could join in, and that's more difficult now with these barricades. And then the final float was was a big, huge, like a sound truck, you know, sponsored by one of the discos. So everybody along the route would just follow that that that truck, that sound truck into Civic Centre for the celebration. It was on one day. Now it's on two days. It's on Saturday and Sunday, which I've never quite figured out. Why the Saturdays have never been very well attended. They've tried different themes, and it never seems to have worked very well. Um, difference in the parades from the very beginning. Certainly there's a lot more politicians that participate, you know. Now it's essentially generally for politicians to be in it because of the numbers of gay people and how you know gay people vote and high percentages, they do other changes. Well, there was a period of time when floats became less less prominent. And the parade committee, to their credit, have have made efforts to get funding and support for people to make floats. So there's there's been more. But again there's There's so much corporate stuff and I really don't like to take, you know, for the photograph, the parade for the parade, and they want photographs of all the corporate sponsors naturally. But when I'm taking photographs for other purposes, I try to get that stuff out of it. I really do you know, beard labels and all that kind of stuff. I, I don't I don't want that part of my photos. Sometimes it's impossible. And sometimes it, you know, I shouldn't. You know, nothing is really a blanket statement, but sometimes it works. I have this one photo. It was at a 7-Eleven, you know, convenience store. And it was a big billboard on the side of the wall that said hot Dogs. And there were these two guys who were dressed in leather and one was tall and thin, and the other guy was relatively short and had a really big gut. And he had his shirt off and I I forget if he had suspenders. But you know, his his belly was very prominent and I used the photo in an exhibit and the I didn't get their names at the time, but they knew I was taking the photograph because I took about three or four shots of this, and I really liked it using that advertising side. Although I didn't have the logo and the photo was in a exhibit, and one of the guys who was in the photo called me and he said, Oh, you know, you have to take that down. You didn't give my permission and it was embarrassing to me, and da da da da da da and I, I guess, apologised to him and I don't I didn't take it down, you know, he's in a public space and they knew I was taking a photograph. So and that was before you. Well, now, you know, you sort of lost all privacy on the street when everybody's got a camera with photograph and that that that photographs old enough that it wasn't the case then what about people taking part in the parade? Has that changed? Well, there's more families, I think in it, but probably not. You know, there's groups from churches and education groups and different activist groups, and the police have been in it for a long time, and the Fire Department and paramedics in the library. And maybe one thing that's not as prominent in the parade is just kind of these spontaneous groups that would come together like the Barbie support group Barbie. You know, the Barbie dolls there would be these for many several years. There was the Barbie support group, and they weap appear now and then dress up like Barbie. There was also was a gaze against brunch. This was quite a few years ago, and I think that was a spontaneous group that just came together and and did the thing in the parade. Um, well, another thing. A change, I guess there's been. But again, these changes happened. Quite a few. You know, we're talking like probably 2030 years ago, even 30 years ago. You know, the motorcycles, the dikes on bikes that lead it off. Well, then there became all the like scooters and mike on mic on bikes and bicyclists. And so that's increased, expanded from the dykes on bikes to all these other groups. That's one thing that has happened. Um, I feel there's always a need for more music in the parade. There's not that many bands and that too, you know, just seeing the change in the the atmosphere and the change in the audience as the music goes by makes a big difference and just the kind of the the happiness and the energy and and the flavour of the crowd. That's one thing that hasn't changed for me even all the years I've done it. It's just kind of the general excitement of being out there. Do you find that when you're photographing you or you feel part of the event or are you kind of stepping back a wee bit and just an observer? It depends like I pray. I sort of feel part of it at some because I walk up and down and and try to be out of people's way. Um, but generally I really try to be out of the event. I try to be as sort of inconspicuous and quiet and unobtrusive as I can, but probably to my own fault. I you know, I think a lot of strong photographs over time are people who have been very pushy and are are very obnoxious or in the way. And it's not really my style so much so I tend to be a bit more, uh, trying to be a bit more unobtrusive. So on a personal level, how does that affect you when if you are observing events? Um, do do you feel that you're not being part of the community? Or does it have any? No. Because and I guess, one. No, no, I don't feel like that. And one reason is I just and it's been a very strong aspect of the motivation for the work that I do is that it's documenting a time and a place. And so I feel like I'm you know, even though a lot of people don't realise it or don't appreciate the importance of photography historically and just how essential it is to capture this time and place. So I've I've always, you know, given the history of of gay history and how it does get destroyed, it's just been an important aspect of my work is to document it. So, no, I've never really felt that. I don't think that it's what I'm doing is valuable. I mean, I guess. I, I question some of the things I take photographs of, of course, because it's such a variety, it's But in general, no, I don't question the value of it at all. I think it's really important and I want it preserved. I want it accessible so that people can use it, and it is now. It's one reason why my work is so organised. Very it's easy to find stuff so so people can use it, and at this point in time, you know, after so many years it starts to become valuable for its historical quality. In addition to a good photograph, just the fact that the person is dead, for example, it makes that photograph quite different. You mentioned quite a lot earlier on about, um, photographing care, giving in the kind of AIDS early years of AIDS. And I'm wondering, how was that to photograph such personal moments? Well, I thought, in some ways, you know, I sort of like you have to sort of separate myself from it, and it's interesting. You can get in there and you concentrate on the photography, and it's kind of like That's it. And you kind of you concentrate on what people are doing, but for me, at least, it's usually not in the context that I will be able to remember what people are doing later on it. I'm focusing on what they're doing so that I can take a photograph of it, or that I can get a moment or that that that I can capture in one image of the essence of what's going on in this activity or this event. So that's what I focus on and not, um, sort of like being a part of it feeling like I'm a part of it or participating in it. I guess I was kind of getting to the to the idea that in a large event where you've got, you know, hundreds or thousands of people. But actually, when you're doing a one on one thing with, you know, a carer and a person, um, it it's telescoped right down, isn't it? So you literally you've only got three people in the room or and what kind of impact that has on the work that you do was so they try to engage the people somehow, And I mean, I think it's somewhat of a challenge for me, um, to try to get them more animated in some cases, if they need to be. Or sometimes people are animated, so it's not such an issue. But, you know, I try to talk with them and have some kind of exchange with them, certainly to to make them feel at ease or to get a sense, maybe, of what they're about, like an environmental portrait. You know, you look around the environment and try to figure out how I can get a good photograph that somehow speaks to them by what they're in, You know, the environment that they're in that says a little bit more about them. So I just try to observe very carefully and try to make those those more kind of abstract connections. Perhaps I'm wondering if you can talk a wee bit about photographing things like memorial marches like, Say, like the Candle Light Marches and and Remembrance Services. This one thing about those that are more difficult is they're dark so that that then you sort of have the question of, well, should I use a flash which gives a very different ambience to the to the event, or try to use, you know, available light? It was more of an issue with film with digital, there's more versatility. But even so III I it it's they're very different quality photographs. So that's one issue to to try to, to to decide, and I think probably the the most. The strongest photos of that type of an event is tighter photographs of individuals that looks sad. You know, you don't want people smiling in those things, those sorts of things which you know people have a tendency to do when you put a camera in their face. They tend to smile, and it doesn't really work in a memorial photograph at all, even though people may not be so sad. But it doesn't really work in the photograph. Um, I wonder also about the the the feeling of intrusion that you're intruding into somebody's private grief. Yeah, I feel pretty cautious in those situations and that I do tend to use a longer lens in that situation. But I usually will have to go and get names afterwards. And as I said before, you know, people generally are. I've gotten so few refusals of people not wanting to be photographed that it's kind of it's kind of amazing to me because I tend to not to really want to be photographed. I don't really say no, but I sort of if I feel like I'm gonna be in a photograph, I'll like, kind of turn my head or something, and I don't really care to be photographed necessarily. I'm kind of a private person, but if you ask, I won't say no. But I guess he refused to be photographed. Apparently, I guess also one of those things with those type of memorials are that they are public memorials, aren't they? That it's a It's an outward showing of of free. They are, they are. They are on the streets. There's been very, you know, I think one of the the best photographs I've had of a of of a candle light Marche is actually later when people put their candles at the on the steps of the Department of Public Health and then one guy came in and he had a flag, I assume a rainbow flag and his back was to the camera. And But you can see all the, you know, the candles and then this silhouette of the guy and then the Department of Public Health, which, perhaps not to a broader audience, but certainly to what? That what the That focus was of that particular march, I assume at the I don't recall exactly, but was focused on the Department of Public Health and something that they were not doing or something they needed to do. So people left their candles there, so that particular image, I thought, also is a really I like the image very much. I think it's very evocative, and it also tells a news story at the same time, which is sort of like the Triple Crown, in some sense, for a photo. For me as a photographer, as a news photographer, to get something that I feel is a an art is an artistic image and, um, uh, an emotive image and also tells the story. So when it happens, it feels really good. And when it doesn't, there's always tomorrow. There's always the next one. When do you know that you've got You've got the right image where you go? Ah, yeah, that's a do you know at the time, or just some When when I look at the frame, not with digital, Of course you can do it well, and like in previous, you know when you're editing looking at the contacts. Um, when those three things come together for me, you know when there's some kind of artistic when I feel there's a balanced artistic image and it evokes an emotion of some sort, and it tells the story of what the assignment was. Although the third part, you know, I mean everything I don't I don't shoot everything on assignment and photographs. I take on assignment don't always fit those three criteria, but when they do, that's, you know, that's to me. Kind of a big success you mentioned a bit earlier about, um, working for the Bay Area reporter and that sometimes they would crop your image. I'm just wondering, Can you talk about, um, where you frame your image? Is it actually in the viewfinder, or is it later in post production? How does it? No, I must always shoot for frame. I must always try to certainly and achieve it, you know, 98% of the time. Sometimes when I don't is when I can't get close enough and have to crop. Um, yeah, I mean, that's what it is is when I can't position myself in such a way that I can frame through the camera. That's when I have to crop. But it doesn't happen very often. I that's really been, and for me, that's been a very important aspect of it, and which hasn't certainly been true of photographers throughout history. I was just reading some stuff about Walker Evans, who is quite a famous American photographer, particularly known for work in the 19 thirties and the Depression and he cropped a lot. So you know, it's not, you know, incredible photographers cropped for sure, but I tend not to try not to. And then when somebody else does crop for you like an editor, how do you feel about somebody else? You know, manipulating your image? I'm not happy with it. And I would get very upset early on, and then I can just kind of give up. And it's It's beyond my control, and that's just the way it is. So but, no, I don't. And there's even times when the article was about me as a photographer and some of my experiences and I, some you know, gave him a couple of images to run and they would crop that. It's like, Well, it's not that it sounds very irritating. It is. It is, um, sometimes it's it. They're better photographs, but they'll crop them generally not. Generally, it's, uh, you know the balance when they'll crop, even if it's a little bit in the central image of the the photo is there It just, you know, for me, I saw it balanced in a different way. I saw it composed in a different way, and to see that changed is not good. It's sort of not my photo. I mean, that's not really true. I guess it's still my photo and certainly people know it as my photo. But for me, it's not the same as what I took. And I sort of say OK, someday I'll display that in its full glory and people will appreciate it much more as the photo that it is. Do you do much post production work? I'm thinking like either retouching or cropping. No, no. You know, I use Photoshop now. Um, I always thought I was a pretty I. I always thought I was a good black and white printer. I never learned to print colour, which is unfortunate, because I think it would help me now in in, you know, change in doing the colour work on some of the digital images. Um, but I do very little I. I do very little. I do some sharpening and I. I do some, but not very much. No. Why is that? I've never explored Photoshop greatly and I don't really want to. They're news photographs, and I really want it to be what it is and and I don't want to manipulate it very much at all. I don't The the most I would do would be comparable to dodging and burning. And I don't even do that very much in digital. I don't but that that's what I would do mostly in the black and white printing the print printing would be dodging and burning, you know, bringing down the corners and the edges and the skies and trying to bring up the faces and and the things like that the highlights. What is the most moving image you've shot? Certainly some of the things related to AIDS are very moving. Some of the marriage scenes have been very moving. Um, photographing Mandela, which was at the eighth conference in Durban. I forget how many years ago, Um, but he spoke there, so that was very moving. Those are shoes, you know. Um, are are those those situations? Uh, other situations. I guess when people are talking about someone I knew or knew of that maybe was in the community. Um, and I get affected by you know, I don't like going to memorials. That and generally the people I, I don't know or know of a little bit or had a a bit of of contact with through my work. But even so, they they're just, you know, it's there's sad times. So So So those those I don't like those assignments, but they haven't that sense of, um being moved or sadness. Does that happen? Actually, at the event Or is it actually later on, when you're both both, you know, at the event, for sure it does. And then when I'm looking through photographs or even now going back and looking at photographs, say, from the AIDS period and that and seeing so many people that are dead from that period, Yeah, it's sad. It is. It is, you know, just the potential that was lost, such a creative active, you know, brilliant people, so many of them, and just gone just gone. Behind us in this room are six cabinets of these all negatives photographs. I think four of them are. Yeah, four of them are. The other two are 4. 5 of them are actually. The other two are old papers, and I'm kind of a clipper, so I have a lot of stuff related to travel and things so yeah, those are negatives and chromes when I would shoot colour was mostly chrome although there was a period Oh, I guess a couple of years where I shot a lot of colour negative film. So those are all there in their own day as well they are. That's how I organise the work is by date, which is something they never taught us in school. And it's sort of basic, but it took me, I think, a couple of years before I started realised. Well, I need to organise this by date, which seems so simple and it works. That's how I do just everything. Chronological. And then I have a file maker, a very simple FileMaker programme that a friend did for me years ago that has, uh, I guess eight or nine fields date location. Who's there? What it is what the client is, and I can search for all of that and then go back and get the material by date. And there's the negatives. There's contacts with all the negatives also, so I can look at the contacts which I never I know people can read negatives, but I never really got to be able to do that very well. Expressions are extremely difficult to read in a negative, not in a context. So that's what's there. And I do use it. People do. You know, I do use it for requests that people have for different issues and different people and things like that. And it's It's really impressive that it's all so well documented because I I think for a lot of people, they just have piles of negatives that aren't dated. I've heard when people have come to, you know, if they're working on a film or something and looking for some photos. I've heard of other photographers in the community that their work is just is not very accessible. But no, I've I've I spent a lot of time doing that, you know, key wording and and doing it. It's very time consuming to do that, but I keep it up to date and and it's there. So you have all this film negative, and I'm just wondering, Is it a concern of yours that, um, now everything's moved kind of into the digital age? How you actually get your film onto digital? I mean that scanning those those draws would take years. Yeah, no, I would never do that. Somebody else can if they want. But, um, I'll just scan the individual images that I that I need is is how I work it and just takes a bit more time. I think you lose some quality too. My scanner probably is not the best available. Um, but it works for the newspapers. The quality works. OK, but no, it would be quite an effort to do that. It would. And I certainly don't have any interest or the capability to do it, and I don't see any need to do it either. And, you know, we know film will last. For what? Photography is about 170 80 years old or something around in there. 18 thirties. Yeah, and digital isn't so we we know negatives last. They're kept right and and such. We don't know about digital. So who knows? If in 100 years, digital will still be accessible, Presumably it will be, but we don't know. And at least with a negative, you can hold it up to the light and yeah, hopefully it's still there. And I seem to do as I look back at these old negatives I seem to have. I did my own development in printing, right. So I seem to have washed fixed them and washed them is really the key to preserving them. They seem to have done it, OK, that they're holding up well, so I'm glad. So for you. What are the differences between film and digital? What are the things that you've most noticed? Well, that's one thing. Um And like I said earlier, just the fact that you can check what you've done it relieves so much anxiety. And what you see in the back of the camera, it is not always exactly what you're gonna see on your computer. Certainly doesn't always the one. Sometimes I'll see a photo on my camera. I said, Oh, that looks That looks good. But by the time I look at it on the computer, it doesn't look so good. So there is that It doesn't translate, but definitely it It allows me to check the lighting and check. And like sometimes when I'm in a situation where it's kind of intrusive as a speaker and kind of intrusive to take a photograph, particularly if I have to use a flash. I'll back off if I, you know, if I get like two or three photographs, that'll work, then I'll stop just because it's so obtrusive and I don't really need anymore. So I'll stop and that. So that's you know, that's one thing that's a benefit, certainly. Um, and in in situations that move fast and that there is a lot of movement, you can take a lot more and more easily. And of course, it's cheap to do that. So I think it's an improvement. I do. I. I think it's made me a better photographer. One of the things that I found moving from film to digital was I was generally shooting in black and white and then moved into colour colour in digital. And I still think I have a black and white eye. What about you? No, I think No, I think I I I think I I look for I don't think I look for black and white stuff anymore. I. I don't I don't I'm not sure I ever did so much. No, I think I look much more for colour when I'm looking for a photograph and particularly now. I mean yeah, definitely. Now, although a lot of my photographs are published in black and white, still, it's not always comes out in colour, but if there's a colour, if there's an element to be had that that is strong on the colour, I'll really try to include that in the image. Somehow I will, as as other aspects like repetition, I love repetition. Odd angles. Um, I love using the corners of of photographs to to sort of the main thing in the corners or in the edges. Um, II, I really love this notion that you've got this little depending on your side, But, you know, you got this little rectangle or square and you've got this vast world around you and you're gonna take this little, little you know, rectangle and capture a big a part of that vast world and make that little chunk work in various ways on various levels. That's kind of this essential excitement and challenge and fun about photography, and the other things sort of add to it like the historical documentation aspect to it. Kind of just add to it because, you know, the bottom line is is getting a photograph that's that works, whether it's of a person or of an event or of just a chunk of that world. It's interesting, though, isn't it that photographs can work At various times? I often think of photographs as having almost like half life. So they work at the time that they've been taken then maybe 10 years down the track and then 50 years down the track. They take a completely different Can you talk about how how your photographs have changed over time when you go back and look at them and and and their uses, perhaps? Well, in some ways, I see very that I like, you know, sort of depressingly have changed very little. But on the other hand, if it works, you know why change it, Um, because, like some of the the elements of a successful photograph for me haven't really changed very much over the years that I've done it. Um, certainly the historical nature changes of it. Um, I think digital has allowed me to experiment more and to end up with more usable images. Um, that would be one change related to that over the but in terms of how I take a photograph and that's, you know, like we talked earlier. That's some of the challenge of trying to be fresh in a situation that isn't very fresh, and sometimes it just doesn't work. Sometimes you just can't. It just doesn't work. And yet you have to walk out with a photograph. But that's, you know, you look at any publication and particularly a newspaper with deadlines and frequent deadlines. There's a very mixed bag of the quality of the photography, and some many events don't lend themselves to very creative photography at all. So but how do you think, for instance, some of the act up photographs when they were first taken? They resonate in one way, but when they're seen now, do they resonate in a different way? Or do they resonate in the same way? There's probably less anger looking at them now because it's less immediate. And there are. There are also a lot of successes all that screaming and and, you know, being being annoying paid off, you know, drug approve processes are different. More drugs are into the market. Prices have gone down. Services have been more sensitive. There's a whole range of things that partially were improved partially by the people that were in the street creaming about this. So there's a you know, I think perhaps there's a sense of looking at that and saying that that worked. And, you know, just in the last year or so there's been quite a bit looking back at act up because it's 25 years. So some of the things that I've participated in and went to, you know, sort of public forums and discussions about this. I thought there was a real nostalgic view to it, which I'm, you know, feel the same way too. And just of this the the the intensity and the spontaneity of this activism, because people were being affected so directly and it gave it a real power that that isn't true today. So I think people recognise that when they look back at these photographs and hopefully it'll be a spark for more of that and that it will remind people and teach people that resistance is a constant, really, and particularly in in gay people it it's been people resist a situation that they don't like, or that is not beneficial to them and those photographs from that period capture that particular, uh, one particular aspect of this resistance throughout history. What about lighting in your photography? Well, I like to, and not with digital. You can do it better, too. You can do it more easily. You just use the natural light. I mean, that's the best. It's not. It's the best, but it's It's one way that I really try to take advantage of and whenever I can. Certainly, otherwise, I essentially use an on camera flash. Um, I've experimented some with handheld flash off camera. I probably should do that more because, you know, you can really do a lot more with and get much more dramatic lighting with that, Um, but that's essentially what I use, and I will. I mean, I'm constantly aware of it. Of course, you have to be as a photographer, you have to be constantly aware of it, and you get to be able to read light. You know, you teach yourself how to read light and what works and what doesn't and the intensity of it and things like that, just through your own experience. You know, you you certainly get some sense of how to work with these situations? Um, yeah, shadows, an element that I I try to work with a lot and in performance. It comes into play quite often, and it's a way to kind of add something to it. Um, in circumstances where where there are shadows, are you more aware of the shadowing or the light? I think it was to say at first at the light, you know, I'll really try to look at that and then really, when I look through the frame and maybe take a shot or two and then look at it and say, Oh my gosh, I've cut off the shadow Well, I can just, you know, reframe this and get the shadow. So so it. I guess digital is one way to sort of remind me to look for that because it's very easy for me, at least to kind of overlook some of these elements when you you're in the situation and really focusing on it and not looking through the photograph to see what's behind and and what else is going to be there when it becomes a one dimensional image and uh, which is quite amazing, how well the eye is able to separate that stuff, it really is and how cameras do or photos do not. And so it's, You know, it's up to the photographer to be aware of that and try to compensate for it and adjust for it. And certainly lighting is a big part of that of making a clean background and making something in the background part of the background that you want in the background or getting rid of it. You know, it can be used either way. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1930s ; 1940s ; 1980s ; AZT ; Act Up ; Anita Bryant ; Barbie dolls ; Bay Area Reporter ; California ; Candlelight March ; Castro District ; Dianne Feinstein ; Drag Queen ; Dykes on Bikes ; Europe ; Events ; Fred Phelps ; HIV / AIDS ; Harvey Milk ; Ian McKellen ; Job ; Marriage Equality ; Minnesota ; NAMES Project ; Nelson Mandela ; People ; Pride ; Pride parade ; Proposition 8 ; Rainbow flag ; Rick Gerharter ; San Francisco ; Space ; Spark ; Stuff ; United States of America ; acceptance ; access ; acting ; actions ; activism ; activities ; advertising ; anger ; anxiety ; arrest ; artist ; arts ; audience ; balance ; bottom ; building ; cabaret ; celebration ; change ; choice ; church ; coming out ; community ; conference ; connections ; costumes ; creativity ; crown ; culture ; dance ; data ; death ; demonstrations ; depression ; design ; difference ; diversity ; documentary ; dolls ; drag ; dress up ; drugs ; education ; energy ; environment ; epidemic ; equality ; experiment ; face ; faith ; family ; farm ; fashion ; film ; fire ; forum ; freedom ; friends ; fun ; funding ; gay ; government ; graphic design ; happiness ; health ; history ; hit ; hope ; hospital ; human rights ; immigration ; individual ; labels ; law ; leather ; lesbian ; liberation ; library ; love ; march ; marriage ; media ; medicine ; memorial ; murder ; music ; myth ; nature ; news ; newspapers ; normal ; observer ; opportunity ; other ; parade ; parents ; partnership ; performance ; photo journalism ; photography ; police ; politics ; power ; privacy ; proposition ; public health ; queen ; quilt ; rainbow ; reading ; relationships ; religion ; rent ; resistance ; sad ; scene ; school ; sex ; sexual liberation ; sexuality ; shooting ; singing ; smile ; smiling ; social ; softball ; speech ; straight ; strength ; struggle ; study ; success ; suit ; support ; the other side ; time ; top ; travel ; violence ; visibility ; visual arts ; vote ; work ; zaps. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/rick_gerharter_profile.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089271. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.