The title of this recording is "Panel discussion - Queer History in the Making". It is described as: Audio from the panel discussion on queer history, held during the community event Queer History in the Making. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 12th September 2015. This is a recording of an event and features the voices of Jac Lynch, Kassie Hartendorp, Linda Evans, Paul Diamond and Tony Simpson. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 39 minutes, but this may not reflect the actual length of the event. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: Audio from the panel discussion on queer history, held during the community event Queer History in the Making. The content in the recording covers the decades 1900s through to the 2010s. A brief summary of the recording is: This event, titled "Panel Discussion - Queer History in the Making," was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand. It convened a panel of experts - Jac Lynch, Kassie Hartendorp, Linda Evans, Paul Diamond, and Tony Simpson - to discuss queer history's significant aspects, unexplored resources, and the future of LGBTI Q historical preservation. The discussion began with the panelists contemplating significant areas for queer history research, focusing on underexamined aspects within academia and community research. Activism, as a form of living history, was emphasized, revealing the barriers activists face even with seeming societal acceptance. The speakers explored the need to discover and document the "fugitive remains" of queer history, highlighting the stories and experiences that may otherwise subside into obscurity without diligent preservation. Utilizing unexpected sources, like personal letters and observations, was crucial to piecing together the past. The speakers reiterated the importance of looking beyond the surface, employing close readings, and engaging with imagination to uncover the rich tapestry of queer life in history. They acknowledged the usage of public records and social commentary, underscoring how unconventional sources can reveal nuanced insights into private lives and public perceptions. Addressing what material from today should be preserved, the panelists highlighted the cultures of resistance from the pre-1986 criminalization era and beyond, showcasing how activism shaped lives during this period. The importance of documenting oral histories in repositories like the Turnbull Library was stressed, to capture the first-hand accounts of the individuals who forged these paths. The panel also explored the impact of digital media on the current and future preservation of queer history. In an era dominated by digital content, they examined the challenges of archiving everything from Facebook pages to emails and stressed the need for proactive measures to ensure future accessibility. They urged the community to participate in recording and safeguarding digital footprints to create a comprehensive historical archive. The speakers reflected on their own experiences and highlighted ongoing projects, such as the need for intergenerational connections, the inclusion of indigenous and queer people of colour perspectives, and the creation of digital spaces for story-sharing. They discussed how activism and resistance remain vital in all areas of life and the necessity of acknowledging the multifaceted struggles within the LGBTI Q community. The panel concluded with an open Q and A session, engaging with the audience on topics such as the intersections of activism, historical documentation, and the challenge of integrating resistance in contemporary society, where oppression can still lurk amidst perceived freedoms. The full transcription of the recording begins:  I'd like to introduce Paul first. As as the chair. Paul Diamond is going to come in, and then, um, each of the panel members will introduce themselves. Paul Diamond. Uh, everyone, welcome to this panel discussion on Queer History. Um, just before we hand over to the three speakers, uh, just to give you an idea of the brief that they've been given about what to cover, um, in the session today, three questions, um, that they're going to be addressing What do they see as significant areas for those working in queer history to look at, including community researchers as well as people working in academia. Secondly, what interesting or unexpected sources have they used in their work or their activism? And then, lastly, what material from LGBTI Q activities and lives today would they want to see preserved for the future and repositories like, um and other and the Turnbull Library and other places. So, as Jack said, they'll all be introducing themselves. But this is the speaking order. First will be Tony Simpson, then, uh, Linda Evans and then Casey. And then there'll be questions, as Jack said it after all of them have spoken. So we're handing over first of all to Tony Simpson. Please join me in welcoming Tony well, and hello. And, uh, I'm glad you could come along today. I'm a social historian and the author of 16 books. Uh, but I was also for my son's 10 years chair of Rainbow Wellington. Uh, which I see has a very, uh, comprehensive display here today, and I'm pleased to see it. So of course, that means that I'm a queer man. Hard. The German writer and critic uh Walter Jaen observes in one of his essays that what we have in history is not the past, but the study of the present illuminated by the past. And he goes on to remark that what we have of that history, furthermore, is not only not the past in full, but what he calls its fugitive remains. So where we begin, our elimination depends on what we have retained as fuel to light the way Sometimes the potential for that illumination is quite deliberately and supposedly snuffed out. I'm always reminded in this context of the story of the Englishman who was conducting a walking tour of Ireland and he lost his way. So he called in the cottage nearby and asked the resident Irishman which way he should go to get to Dublin, to which the Irishman applied. But if he was setting out for Dublin, this was the wrong place to start. Sometimes we deny ourselves an understanding of our present by refusing to begin our journey at certain points in the past, we simply don't go there. And if we try to, there are plenty of people to block out of our way and to suggest that there's an officially sanctioned other path that we should be travelling instead. That's the truth that applies to many areas of our journey in history. When I was a boy growing up, we had it almost literally drummed into us that New Zealand was, in the favourite phrase, the most successful multiracial society in the world. It wasn't until I was an adult that I discovered that some of the people who lived here, let's call them Maori for the sake of argument didn't necessarily share that view. Similarly, with the notion that we were and are an open and egalitarian society in which everyone gets a fair go, you can make a case for that. Of course. Uh, although you might find people who don't agree with you again. Some Maori people, uh, or quite a few women past and present, who would also feel this was not necessarily a fair go society and and had not been in the past. Not to mention, of course, the lesbian, gay and trans communities. In fact, let's especially not mention when we're talking about our history in the past the lesbian, gay and trans communities in the same breath as we talk about our history. Until I became an adult, I also had absolutely no idea the two people I admired tremendously. The writer Frank Sarge and the painter toss Williston were both gay, although they were muted about it because you could go to jail in those terms in those times for simply being yourself and and some of you may know very nearly did when he was dobbed in by a sexual partner who was under pressure from the police. So so much for the fair go society. I found that out myself the hard way when I went to work for Radio New Zealand in the late sixties and early seventies. It's called the NZ BC in those days, and I was one of those people pioneering the use of oral history techniques to make historically based documentary programmes. Uh, something which later turned into the Spectrum series. I made two almost immediate and important discoveries. The first was that there were certain taboo subjects in the past that you were not allowed to explore. I made the mistake, for instance, of producing a programme about the shooting in extremely questionable circumstances of 50 Japanese prisoners of war at Featherston in 1943 which most New Zealanders still don't know about. By the way, it is not the sole topic of conversation in the bars in which I drink, but the second was even more important and much more positive. There are many people out there who have never formally studied history in their lives, but who nevertheless have a very clear idea of the pattern etched by those lives on the broader community and the meanings that imparts not only to themselves but in a curious reciprocal relationship to the society in which they live. Often those meanings have very little or even nothing to do with the official meanings and identities that we impute to ourselves. But to find out what those unofficial meanings might be, you have to conduct a search and a rescue operation. That's why is a very important resource for historians. Now. Some of you may be aware I am currently engaged in an exercise in exploring the nature of the gay male culture of resistance, which existed prior to 1986 and the decriminalisation of homosexual acts between consenting adults. I know quite a lot about it, of course, from personal experience. No, obviously, uh, although I was in the closet for most of it, which in itself is part of that culture of defiance and resistance. But because it's no longer required, it's fading from sight and recollection. Cultures do if they don't serve a purpose. I'm interested in ensuring that it's nevertheless preserved by recording the recollections of those who were participants. It's beginning to develop, of course, a degree of urgency, uh, because I found, as I found when I found when I compiled my old history of the Depression of the thirties, the Sugar Bag Years, published in 1974. When I was working on it, there were plenty of people stood around who experienced it, and I could draw on them. But within a decade, many of them had actually died. They were no longer available, and it would be impossible to write that same book today. There's almost nobody around who remembers. Certainly, as an adult, the depression of the thirties. It would be, uh or rather, to say, we need to watch out that the same thing doesn't happen regarding the gay culture of the pre 1986 era, As Beaman colleague once said, In history we listen to the voices of the dead. But a precondition of that is we have to make sure those voices are available before we can do so. And that, I hope, answers the third of the questions I was asked to address. Namely what material from LGBTI Q activities and lives today would I want to see preserved for the future. We need to ensure that we have the directly recollected and recorded documentation of that experience through the Oral History Archive here at the Turnbull Library and in other places. How did it feel? We need to have a record of to be a breathing living gay man in an era of gay suppression. But my project goes beyond that because culture and history are not static things. They are processes, and I'm also recording both the point of transition itself. That's to say how the law change came about and what role people played in that and what that has meant for existing gay lives. And equally important, of course, what it means for the lives of those gay men who have grown up in a society in which the law is permissive rather than oppressive. Has it in fact, made any difference or have both The oppression and the cultural resistance simply reinvented themselves in new forms, as often happens in processes of social and cultural change. Well, that leaves me no time to address the other two questions I was asked to address, but I'm sure others will readily fill that gap. Um, you, some of you may have seen Anita Brady's name advertised as being on the panel. Unfortunately, she's sick today, so hopefully, um, at one of our other ends events we can hear from her because I think her research into, um, same sex kissing in public is pretty fantastic. and it'll be great to hear more about it. Um when she's Well, um, I also wanted to just say quickly, um, acknowledge, um, talking about queer history in the making for people who've died in the last little over a year, who've really contributed to queer history in this country. Um, Pauline Simmons are very strong in the Wellington area and lots of community events and in law reform and lesbian organisations. Pat Rosier. Probably better known in Auckland, But, um, really influential Vern Keller, who was the librarian at the AIDS Foundation. Huge, um, amount of work in making, um, information about HIV aids available. And, um, Robin Duff who? Um a founder of Christchurch Gay Liberation, a supporter of the archives, has contributed material and recordings. Um, and so all the absence of all of them is is really important to note. Um, I guess, uh, I I agree with a lot of what Tony said, and I really like the fugitive remains the quote that he gave that talked about, um, what we're using and what we're looking at as being fugitive remains because, um, there is that kind of thing of looking at stuff that's not necessarily on the surface, plus also the fact that things can so easily be lost and things can deteriorate. Recordings can deteriorate, photos can deteriorate so you don't have them anymore. So it's kind of fugitive in both in both the metaphoric and the literal senses. And I guess when I think of the themes of queer history of the histories of all of the communities that are represented here today, it's more like how you approach it than, um, certain particular themes. So it's full of and and many of these things, um, are, um, present in all kinds of history. But I think just a bit more so In our cases, it's full of complexities, contradictions. We really need to read closely to, um, get clues to work out what might have been going on. We need to use our imaginations as well as close research, and we need to have the courage to ask questions and to take risks to name things. Um, and also always to, um, think about the context, because in a way, in all of our, um, movements and communities, we give each other context. And so just, you know, focusing only on the personal, which has been really important and will continue to be, doesn't kind of reflect those networks and intersections and the context we can give each other. So this sort of obsession about evidence of lesbian or gay or um, trans identities and activities and is is something that I think has really held us back. And I think we have to look with a bit more imagination and breadth at, um, how we interpret our communities and our individual lives, the kinds of sources that have been important to me. Um, in both my activism and research have been quite varied. And that's one of the things I think that's important to look everywhere for possible signs of it. In my case, I'm looking particularly for lesbians or same sex women who've had same sex relationships. Um, anywhere should be grist for our mill. Any kind of archive, um, is is is worth looking at, uh, and and you might remember, if you came to the, um, launch of Julie Goner's book. It was almost entirely constructed from public sources. Um, that was Mr X, um, where we had the launch at the end of last year. a lot of, um, she read newspapers really closely. She haunted the births and deaths places and, you know, she all of the directories of streets And she used public services to the public sources to the And that's a good example of just being thinking from the perspective of someone who is a lesbian who is queer, who's gay, who's Trans, who's bisexual or intersex thinking from your perspective when you approach the sources. And one of the, um, just to mention one thing that I particularly love, um, as a source is a letter written in the early 19 hundreds, um, from one of the Richmond sisters to her sister, um, Dorothy Kate Richmond, who was travelling in Europe, uh, a companion and possible lover of Frances Hodgkins. Her sister wrote to her to let her know that she had seen, um, at a public event Blanche with her new lady husband. Now she wasn't very flattering about about the lady husband who is German, and she didn't have a good impression of her. But that's amazing, you know, there there is evidence of identifiably women in same sex relationships at public events in Wellington early in the 19 hundreds. So it's just those little blimps, you know, that you can get ideas from, um, expand out and and kind of, um, put together the sort of patchwork of, um, what could have been and what might be, um, one of the thinking of the things I would really like to see um, happening in the research in the future. I agree with Tony. We still haven't done enough about the cultures and communities pre, um, gay liberation lesbian liberation feminism. I think that that we really need to do more in depth research in those areas here and in particular, um, the whole there's the strengths of the cultures and the imagination of the culture and the, um vivaciousness of those cultures. But also there are the punishments, and there's been very little research possible into the mental health so-called treatments that people received. There's not been a lot of research into what happened when, um uh men in particular were convicted. Or, um, girls and boys were put into care, Um, because of so-called inappropriate or sexual activity. So I mean, I think there's a lot of areas still to look at both, um, the ones that are probably a little bit easier to surface and ones that are much harder to get out. The information. Um, the 19 seventies ends up getting overlooked often, and which is interesting because because of the emphasis on the eighties and law reform and that. So I still think it's important to do work on that. I think, um, whether we've had a, um it's important to to look at how things are working for young people and also for old people, because, you know, there's now more and more old. Um uh, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender people. How is it for them? And I'm talking about, you know, as being old. What's that like, What's the experience like, How do you just get overlooked, Do you? Does everyone go back to assuming heterosexuality unless you can somehow, um, confront that? So the whole the whole question, I think of, um, one of the buttons in the display is How dare you assume I'm heterosexual? You kind of need to keep that going right into the future, because that sort of heterosexual supremacy and heteros is still always assumed about a person, unless you can prove otherwise. And how do you prove otherwise? If you are not in a relationship or you use our relationships to prove that often it's, you know, easy way, um, talking about archiving for from today for tomorrow. And I hope we'll have more talk from you about that. Um, we still So we want to make sure we have evidence and traces of, um, all of these our communities, um, our personal lives, our political lives. What? We enjoyed our cultural lives. And of course, those are increasingly digital. So that is quite a challenge for us to make sure we keep gathering the physical items, but to work out ways of gathering the digital. And that's where we need you to help us by looking after your digital stuff. So when you take photos when you, um, send emails when you write when you set up a facebook page, um, or a website, um, finding out how to look after it in such a way that it's going to be able to be kept for the future, to be used in the same way as the newsletters and posters and so on from the past are able to be used. Um, so um and, um, Ellen's gonna talk a little bit more about that, but there we have some information at the library, too, to help people with that. But, um I mean, it's important to know that for your Facebook page, only you can download it. No one else can. And if you're an organisation that has a Facebook page, no one can download that. So all the stuff that's on that page can't be sorry extracted and preserved. So, you know, it's just the issues about all the things that the evidence of our lives Now, how can we carry them into the future? Um um good everyone. Um, So my name is Casey, and I'm yelling now so everyone can probably hear me. Um, and I just came to give a little bit of a bit of a from, I guess, a youngish perspective. I'm always really careful about saying that we're young because everyone gets, like, really offended when I make it clear that they might not be young anymore. So I'm not intending that. I'm just saying, you know, I'm here. Um and I mean, like, I got I got asked about this a couple of days ago. So, I, I don't have, like, a really big thing. But I have a really beautiful brainstorm. And if anyone wants to come and look at the brainstorm later, then by all means do so, um so I guess from my perspective when I'm not coming here, I don't consider myself a historical expert. Whatever that may be. Um, and my experience comes from a few different things, and that is, um, growing up in a place without knowing or having any access to LGBTI Q histories. Um, it's from being mixed race and having no access to my cultural histories growing up. Um, it's from working alongside young people. Um and I guess their journeys around their sexuality or their gender. It's from being really opposed to oppression and to exploitation and being grounded in, I guess, political change that really challenges our status quo. So I'm talking about capitalism, and I'm talking about colonising structures that continue to enforce social hierarchies, which is still the reason why we have to keep gathering here like this. Um, yeah, and I also have have had a degree in the past, but I made a conscious decision to move away from the academy because I thought that, um I was really interested in making those knowledge that take place in ivory towers more accessible to people who are not able to access those. So that's kind of where my heart lies. And I guess, um when I was thinking about the the main, um, ideas around this I think two things kind of stuck out for me. And one is the process of recording and gathering histories and information, and the other, I guess, is disseminating it and and putting it out there and making it accessible. And while I was thinking about this, I happened to also be reading this book An indigenous response to neoliberalism. I'm such a nerd. Um, but I was actually just reading an essay. I'm gonna do a dramatic reading for you all. And this, um, this essay was called Cultures of Collecting, and it's by Cheryl Smith. And I actually thought it was a little bit relevant to this. So I'm just gonna mention this. This passage kind of stuck out for me. So this writer says collectors view the world in a particular way before the action of collecting begins. The person has designed the pretty, the object of desire, the resource and their minds. They have composed collections of missing pieces. They have devised the search and the seeking. The external world becomes a hunt, a trigger of recognition that shapes and manifest their desires. In this world, indigenous peoples live being the collected, the named, the classified, the Commons, the public domain, the protectors of the desired. The obstacles, the remnants, the fascinating, the reviled, the disappointing. The occupiers are myriad of projections and illusions, so Oh, thanks. Thanks, Hubby. I just thought it was quite interesting that happened to be reading that at the same time. And I guess what really stems from them is just thinking. I guess about his not as as being just so contested, right? Like, I mean, that's why we're all here, because we know that actually, our histories have often been excluded from, I guess, mainstream histories. That's why we have to have. That's why we have to hold these events. Um, and I guess I'm really interested in that process of how things become. History makes a historical moment. Who gets to define what the historical moment is because, actually, it's always reflecting our existing power structures that are already in place. So I think that very process is I find it very interesting. And I think some of the things that kind of sparked up referring to my all over the place from Brainstorm, I guess just really acknowledging that there are so many multiplicities. I love that word just saying I'm so excited to get to say it. There's so many multiplicities of experience in terms of what this class is being like and under, around over beyond the rainbow. And I guess it's really cool when we're able to come together, but also knowing that, you know, we have this experience where these histories grow and develop and gather and meet and talk and take action and speak and hear. All of this kind of stuff happens in so many different places, and a lot of those aren't just photographs or they're not just minutes from a meeting or stuff like that. So I just really wanted to acknowledge that and the hidden spaces that actually those histories are always growing. So I'm quite interested in that. And I guess also, uh, yeah, I guess who gets to name or define what is happening. I mean, as an example, when we think about, um, a NZ bank GT MS. Is that a historical moment? Like many might say that. And what does it mean when our historical moments are created, manufactured and mediated through multinational corporations? Like what does? What does that mean for our histories? For our communities? Um, kind of something that's a little bit similar, I think, is the systemic erasure and silencing of certain voices and certain histories. So has everybody heard of like the new Stonewall movie that's coming out or is already out? Yeah, there's a few hands, and I thought it was quite interesting, so I haven't seen it. So I'm one of those people that's just going to talk about something that I haven't seen. But many blogs on the Internet tell me that apparently, when it was talking about the Stonewall riots, there was a, um there was a white sis gay man who threw the first brick, and it was like this big moment, oh kind of thing. And it's just it's just astonishing because actually, it was trans women of colour who were at the front of that riot and it wasn't a white, this gay man who threw that first brick. But now that history has been reinterpreted and is taking on those existing power structures once again and now us young people are being given a picture that I don't think is really true to what really happened. And I think it's really erasing. So I think that's kind of another example of yeah, just why we have to be quite mindful of how we are collecting and representing those, um, those histories. It's not a neutral process. As we all know, um, and the other thing I think there is knowing that we have, I guess it's one thing that I find really difficult and frustrating as kind of like being in marginalised groups and really feeling like you have to be the nice or respectable or polite queer all of the time. And it's like, Oh, we got to do that because that's how we're gonna get, you know, change or whatever. But also, I really don't want change if it doesn't acknowledge like the messiness and the complexity and the monstrosity and all of those really sometimes deep, dark, unsettling parts of who we are. And I think sometimes there's this move to gloss over the and just act like, you know, we've We're all just kind of like waiting for a nice piece of our pie or scraps at the bottom of the table. But I think I think we can be more complex than that and not have to silence ourselves and paint a picture that doesn't really exist. Um, in terms of what I like. Also, I just really want to acknowledge that, um, in terms of histories and whether they are being held as well. So I mean, really thinking about how we can make some of these things accessible. I was talking to a friend, um, last night, particularly about the role that social media has played within a lot of our younger ones, kind of coming to make meaning of ourselves and of others and of our queerness or our sexuality and how social media is kind of seen as like, uh, the devil most of the time. But actually, the first people that I came out to were were miles and miles away on the other side of the world, because they were the only people I felt I could talk to, um and knowing that we have some really richness in our histories there. And how do we make those histories continually accessible? I'm really thankful for spaces like, because actually, being able to come together inter generationally and learn from each other is just a process that I think is absolutely necessary. So I'm thankful for that. And I think a lot of like indigenous knowledge and indigenous practise totally gets that, um, in terms of the future stuff, I don't have all the answers in terms of being like, this is what we should collect. And now we should do this because, yeah, I don't have all the answers to that. But I do know I do want to speak to a couple of projects that are being worked on. So, um, one thing that there's, um it's actually a bit of a self promo, but for example, so here at the back, I mean, one of the things that we're thinking about is making sure that we are creating spaces for indigenous and queer people of colour and who are young. But also it's open to anyone. It's actually not just about young people because we know this stuff needs to be intergenerational. And I'm just gonna quote some of those, um, the three, like our Sorry if I'm going over time, Jack. Um, I won't be too much longer. I promise. I I've just got a couple of thoughts. Nick. Man. Um, so the first is boosting voices and visibility for our Oceanian living and loving under over and beyond the rainbow Navigate ancestral knowledge to activate and support decolonization, gender and sexuality work that imagines and creates futures inclusive of MVP, FA, FF, LGBTI, Q plus peoples and their families. And I think that's like a really, like That's a real historical process that is going on here in this and a couple of things that we're working on is creating a website that is a space where people can share their stories and come together and speak from that position of being indigenous or queer people of colour and also, um, working on building a little community library as well, Which is it's about just gathering resources that are really important and heart filling to our community so that they can physically be there and have access to those so really interested in how we collect how we, um, how what our histories are and also how we make those relevant and accessible to our younger generation. So thank you. Well, for those, um, addresses now there's a wee bit of time for questions. Does anyone have questions? While your Allen's got a question, it's not so much a question as more Who's collecting digital in town. If we're not collecting our own digital materials, nobody else is going to do it for us. Um, I'm going to talk this afternoon about my 20 year archive of the lesbian Wellington website. And yes, I've already collected and saved most of the files. Thousands of Web pages. Um, but who else is doing it? I've started a little archive of lesbian library photos digital, and I'm feeling my way on what is the best practise? And can other people who are interested in collecting digital or doing it? Perhaps we can get together and have a little focus us out a focus group, a social focus group, working out best practises and talking to about how we're going to get the stuff into. Are there others who are interested come and talk to me down at the store later or come to my talks this afternoon. Thanks, Allen 11 sort of digital resource I was going to mention was the, um, incredible archive. I guess I'd call it a digital archive that Gareth Watkins has put together. Um, Gareth can give you the exact name the Pride new Zealand dot com um, collection of interviews, which is remarkable because many of them have been transcribed. And it's a really good Gareth has done a great job of, um, getting the material out there and making it accessible. And lots of people here have been interviewed for that. And if you want to know more about queer history and things, that's a really good place to look. Did Yeah. One thing that occurred to me, um, to ask was to pick up on this idea of defiance and resistance that was mentioned by Tony and and, um, well, actually all three of the speakers. How does activism work in this? This sort of age of integration, if there is this kind of freedom to just hang out at the garden centre like everyone else on a Saturday morning if you're not at the National Library. But how does that work and where do where are those sort of sites of resistance and push back at the times when you need to do that? So just wanted to ask you three. I mean, how does activism work? And where are the sites where it might be happening? Is it the queer groups at university? Or is it in hotbeds of activism like La La games or or where, where can Where can it happen in this time of integration and freedom? It can happen anywhere, of course. I mean, quite a lot of work is done, for example, by Rainbow Wellington, which, although it's a Wellington based uh collective, does a lot of national work. Uh, in respect of human rights, civil rights, individual, uh, problems of one sort or another I. I see that they're picked up and oppressing the campaign about blood, for example, at present, and and a lot of people are completely unaware that if you are gay, you can't give blood. Uh, except under very restricted circumstances that for many years might as well not have been there because it meant you couldn't give blood at all, so you can pick it up anywhere and and run with it. But you also have to be aware it seems to me of the other side of the coin, because I heard somebody mention the A NZ, uh, and their loud public commitment to to pro gay and lesbian human rights policies and the in the workplace. And I always laugh when I encountered that, because less than two years ago, I had to take a case to the Human Rights Commission on behalf of an employee of the A NZ bank because they would not stop his fellow employees from treating him badly and discriminating against him in the workplace because he was gay. So if you tangle yourself up with multinational capitalist institutions and think that you're going to get your gay or lesbian rights there, then I suggest to you there are better places to pursue that. I think, um, sometimes it is. You're right, Paul. It is kind of hard to recognise where activism is happening. Um, when you know there are big social changes afoot in the way the whole society operates, and when some huge technological change, like the whole um, you know, uh, ways of communicating really affect how you organise people and how you, um, how you make that feeling of collectivity. And also, when we've had this kind of society that's been totally promoting of the individual and not at all promoting of the collective and collective action and and people recognising what they share with other people as well as you know, what divides them. I mean, I think in some ways it still happens in similar ways. Like as Tony says, there's there's kind of civil rights and and problems at work to be active on. Um, there's the bigger picture of confronting the fact that it's still basically a hetero, sexist society and doesn't look at how you know, racism and classism are interwoven with that. And so that's kind of like something where you have to take the initiative and work out a way to do it. And then I think the other part of activism is, um, you know, creating our sort of community life, enjoying ourselves. Um, you know, we've got to have that as well because, um, doing the other political activism is really, um, engaging and stimulating. But it's also really important to connect with each other. Awesome question. Um, I think about activism a lot doesn't mean I have something coherent to say on it, but I think, yeah. I mean, the thing is is that I truly believe that resistance is always happening, however small that it may be, Um even if it comes out in kind of larger moments every now and then and that I think as LGBTI Q people, um, I think that a lot of us really understand the interconnectedness of our struggles as well. So, um, you know, I think there's a lot of there's a lot of spaces where I've seen, you know, our communities that are out on the front and being really ready to be able to talk about stuff, even if it's not specifically about our LGBTI Q. So I think that's really awesome in terms of where activism happens. I mean, yeah, I I again, I, um, to talk about what you said about the collective versus the individual and how it is really difficult in our political environment to be able to conceive of really, like collective organising. That is really effective. I mean, one of the biggest market is that I've been on Been on was around the, um against, um, land, Uh, the sale of assets a couple 2 to 3 years ago. And John Key just kind of didn't even bat an eyelid about it. Do you know what I mean? And so I guess I'm really interested in ways that we can make sure that we keep keep envisioning what collective? A collective fight that looks like, um and but tailoring it to our times as well, I guess. Um, And also I think the thing is is that I like activism is happening all over the place all the time. I mean, I've been lucky to meet people from some really amazing queer Strait alliances and feminist groups that are in our high schools and are just like, yes, we know that, you know, there are problems of the world and we're so ready to do something. But we're not quite sure about where to start. So can we get a little help? So it's kind of like there are people who really had this gut reaction to knowing that we need to, you know, fight against a lot of the stuff that we see in our society. But, um, I think that really, um, that partnering up between between generations is just so key. So yeah, Thank you. Unfortunately, we're out of time, but, um, I think the panel will be around If people have got further things, they want to catch up with them. Listening to them talk. I was reminded of something that Harris said at the Maori Book Awards this week and accepting an award for a book, um, which won the history category award. And she said she's inspired by that book because it shows that, uh, history writing from Maori is one of the best decolonization devices she can think of. And I think we can take a leaf from that book as well. And, um so all that remains really is for me to ask you to join me in thanking these three for inspiring us about the whole process of queer history writing Kilda. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1900s ; 1970s ; 2010s ; ANZ Bank New Zealand ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Aroha Harris ; Auckland ; BOX Events ; Box Oceania ; Cherryl Smith ; Christchurch ; Dorothy Kate Richmond ; Dublin ; Ellen Faed ; Europe ; Events ; Featherston ; Frank Sargeson ; Gareth Watkins ; Gay-TMs (teller machines) ; German ; Hawaii ; Human Rights Commission ; Ireland ; Jac Lynch ; Job ; John Key ; Julie Glamuzina ; Kassie Hartendorp ; LGBT ; Lesbian Wellington ; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ) ; Liberalism ; Linda Evans ; Māori ; National Library of New Zealand ; New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation (NZBC) ; Oceania ; Pat Rosier ; Paul Diamond ; People ; Porleen Simmonds ; Queer History in the Making (2015) ; Radio New Zealand ; Rainbow Wellington ; Resistance: An Indigenous Response to Neoliberalism (book) ; Robin Duff ; Space ; Stonewall (film, 2015) ; Stonewall riots (1969) ; Stuff ; The Closet ; Tony Simpson ; Toss Woollaston ; Tīwhanawhana ; Vern Keller ; Walter Benjamin ; Wellington ; academia ; access ; activism ; activities ; agenda ; archives ; author ; awards ; bars ; being yourself ; bisexual ; blogs ; blood ; blood donation ; books ; bottom ; building ; bullying ; capitalism ; change ; civil rights ; classism ; closet ; closeted ; code ; collective ; collective action ; colonisation ; coming out ; communication ; community ; connect ; conversation ; courage ; crime ; culture ; death ; decolonisation ; defiance ; depression ; desire ; difference ; digital archive ; documentary ; environment ; exercise ; exploitation ; facebook. com ; fear ; feminism ; freedom ; future ; gay ; gender ; growing up ; health ; heterosexism ; heterosexist society ; heterosexual ; history ; hit ; homophobic bullying ; homosexual ; hope ; human rights ; imagination ; indigenous peoples ; individual ; integration ; intergenerational ; internet ; journey ; kissing ; knowledge ; law ; lesbian ; letter ; liberation ; library ; listening ; love ; lover ; mainstream ; marginalisation ; media ; mental health ; nature ; nerd ; newspapers ; obsession ; oppression ; oral history ; other ; police ; posters ; power ; pridenz. com ; prisoners ; queer ; queer straight alliance (QSA) ; race ; racism ; radio ; rainbow ; reading ; recognition ; relationships ; research ; resistance ; resource ; respect ; school ; sex ; sexism ; sexuality ; shooting ; silence ; social ; social change ; social media ; spaces ; spectrum ; straight ; study ; support ; suppression ; tagged. com ; the other side ; time ; trans ; trans woman ; transgender ; transition ; truth ; understanding ; university ; visibility ; walking ; water ; website ; women ; work ; writing ; youth. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_panel_discussion.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089670. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.