The title of this recording is "Pardon Me Alan Turing". It is described as: Writer Stephen Lunt talks about the play Pardon Me Alan Turing. It was recorded in Bats Theatre, 1 Kent Terrace, Wellington on the 1st March 2018. Stephen Lunt is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 27 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast writer Stephen Lunt talks about the play Pardon Me Alan Turing. The play runs at Bats Theatre in Wellington from 1 March - 4 March 2018. The content in the recording covers the decades 1940s through to the 2010s. A brief summary of the recording is: During the podcast titled "Pardon Me Alan Turing," recorded on March 1, 2018, at the Bats Theatre in Wellington, writer Stephen Lunt is interviewed by Gareth Watkins about Lunt's play. The play was being showcased in Wellington for the first time, having previously been performed in Auckland. Spanning across the decades from the 1940s to the 2010s, the play covers the life and times of the renowned mathematician and computer scientist, Alan Turing, focusing particularly on the lesser-known aspects of Turing's conviction for homosexual activities, which were illegal at the time, and the choice that they were faced with: prison or chemical castration. Lunt discusses the motivations behind the play, citing that though Turing received a royal pardon, this pardon was not extended to other individuals convicted under the same outdated legal stipulations. The interviewer inquires about Turing's heritage, leading Lunt to expound on Turing's monumental contributions during World War II, their subsequent criminal charges due to their relationship with a man, and the tragic end to his life. The play aims to bring wider recognition to Turing's conviction and the campaign for extending pardons broadly. The play weaves together four narratively distinct storylines - one focusing on Turing's life, including his family's treatment of them, another on Oscar Wilde and his life before conviction, a modern narrative about the fight for extending pardons, and a fictional purgatorial story imagining a meeting between Turing and Wilde. Lunt's usage of humor in the play serves dual purposes: engaging the audience and deepening the contemplation of serious themes. The term "pardon" is interrogated for its implications of forgiveness for wrongdoing, a concept Lunt argues is inappropriate since the actions for which Turing and others were convicted should not have been criminal. Such a historical injustice still casts a long shadow over the rainbow community, with profound impacts on societal perceptions. Coincidentally, the premier of the play around New Zealand was closely followed by the introduction of historic conviction legislation in the country, which added contemporary relevance and led to rewrites aligning with the legislative changes. Audience responses have been impactful, with many expressing profound shock and emotional responses to the revelations about historic convictions and Turing’s legacy. Many who have lived with hidden pasts might now be reluctant to step forward and apply for their convictions to be overturned, despite the change in legal perception. Lunt also discusses funding and the challenges of marketing the play, acknowledging the support from foundations catering to the rainbow community. The play's narrative, while directed towards a rainbow audience, holds universal appeal due to the ubiquitous nature of justice and rights. The full transcription of the recording begins:  We're in the heyday. Dome of Bats Theatre. Um, so it's one of the three spaces that Bats has, and it has an amazing dome right above us, that which has independent lighting. So it can be a list of any colour, which is amazing for the show, um, and has pillars. And it's actually perfect for the show, really, And this is the first time the show has been in Wellington. It is actually. Yeah, it's It's the first time it's been out of Auckland. So even though it's set in the UK um, Auckland's, it's had two season and development season and, um, the, uh, the Auckland Pride uh, season of it. So how did the play come about? I've been writing it for a number of years. I saw the imitation game, um, which was about Alan Turing and his life and sort of an area which wasn't really covered, which was about his conviction, um, or potential conviction, Which was he received, Um, an alternative to a conviction. And I thought it was an area that hadn't been covered I didn't really know about, so I started researching that and thought it's there was there wasn't even talk then, about, um, the pardons, um, being extended or to anyone else. It just It had just been given to Alan Turing at the time, so I thought it needs more, um it needs to be brought to the public more, more. So before we go any further, can you just elaborate on who Alan Turing was? And and and what was his convictions? So, Alan Turing, um, he was a genius mathematician and computer scientist. And he well, basically he They say that he broke the enigma codes during World War Two. So he, um they say he shortened the war by two years because of his abilities. He he he designed a machine and built a machine that broke the code. And then Nazis were so confident that it couldn't be broken, that they didn't believe that it had. And so, yeah, the British government kept a secret for so long that they managed to win the war by strategy, basically, but he Yeah, his advances in computer science are are basically why we have why computers are where they are today. He had the idea of actually what a computer could be. Artificial intelligence and was fascinated by that. So, yeah, uh, British, Um, during the, um, was working for the British government during the the war of the thirties and forties. Then, um, he was involved in, um he basically had a relationship with someone who, um, who stole some stuff from him. So he reported it, um, but didn't report that he was having a relationship with them. And it came out that he was having a relationship, and then he had to go to court. And, um, the alternative to the conviction for being homosexual, which was legal at the time homosexual activities, um, was that he was a chemical castration, which is, um, artificial oestrogen. So he Yeah, he underwent that afterwards. Um, so to avoid prison. Yeah. So that's how Yeah, That's how it came about that, uh, the the pardon was given to him well, after he was dead. And, um, a long time after, um, he he died. Um, So they say that he committed suicide, but, um, it could have also been just, um, vapour that it could have been because he did experiments in his back room, but yeah, So it could have been that as well, but it was a long time after he died that the pardons came out, Um, the pardon for him, and then it wasn't extended to anybody else except him, which is bizarre for the fact that, um, they were pardoning him for him, his homosexuality, but not actually acknowledging all of the amazing stuff that he did. And it was seen to be only his patriotism is was the reason why they gave him a pardon in the first place. So yeah, and so you were saying you you saw a movie about his life. And then what were the things in that movie that weren't covered? That kind of inspired you to write? The The play was it was more about his life and obviously, the amazing things he did in computer science. Um, and then they kind of skipped over the relationship quite broadly. Um, and his conviction. So I just think it thought it needed to be, um, needed more detail about that and actually need more work needed to be done towards, um, the pardons being extended to the the other men. The thousands of other men who were who had been convicted under the same the same law for hundreds of years. Um and just because they weren't famous, they weren't considered important enough to to be pardoned as well. So it was. It's just to the fight that actually be Cumberbatch and Stephen Fry were campaigning for. Um, obviously they come back to playing and Turing in the film, and and then the the campaign started for trying to extend these pardons in the UK. And then they see here as well in New Zealand. So, yeah, tell me about some of the other characters in the play. So it also features Oscar Wilde. Um, so there's there's four storylines. Um, one is of Alan Turing and his life, Um, especially, um, how His family, um, treated him during the period where he, um, was was in court and being convicted, Um, and his childhood as well. And how they treated him through that, um, O, Oscar Wilde and, um, him his his life, uh, is is being married, but also being distanced in that marriage. And, uh, before he was, um, convicted and sent to prison for 22 years for hard labour. Also, there's a modern story line which is the um, the the fight towards the pardons being being extended. Um, so it's that mainly focused on, uh, just before the pardons were, um were extended in the UK. And then the first reading being passed here. And there is a a purgatory, um, storyline, which is if Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing knew each other and what their relationship would be, Um, So they're having a Alan Turing is direct directness and intelligence against, uh, wild wit and humour and how that and that's just seems to work really well, as soon as I started writing it, knowing the two characters, um how well, they kind of played off each other. I I read a review recently, Um, that that that says about, um, the play the humour seduces you. Then the themes confront you. Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't think if you if you there is a play that, um, keeps punching. Um, tragedy, tragedy, tragedy all the way through. It numbs an audience. I feel like humour lifts the audience out and makes them think about the issues more because they're laughing at it. But sometimes they think they shouldn't be laughing at it because it's a serious matter. And then sometimes they're laughing at it and going, Oh, yeah, that's true. And they relate to it. Um, I think humour is a good way of of bringing issues to the fore and making the audience think about it. Um, if you keep, um, trudging through and hitting the audience with stuff is it's it's it's gonna, um, head against a blank wall after a while because the audience will just put up a wall of numb to it after a while. Yeah, I think humour is a really good tool. So on the face of it, um, giving a pardon for an historic offence is kind of pretty sounds kind of cut and dry, but you're saying there are there are multiple issues within that. Yeah. Yeah, Well, there are There are the issues of what is a pardon. Um, the word pardon invokes ideas of, of being forgiven for something that you've done wrong, which even which the law is trying to to quash sentences. So it's not that the government is forgiving, uh, for something that they should be. It it it shouldn't be a pardon. It should be, Uh um, Just a quashing of sentences because it's there was nothing wrong. Um, with what people were doing at the time. Um, it was just an offence that the government has had in vote. So, um yeah, and so it's the issues of what is a pardon. Why? Why? We're using the word pardon. And, um, what damage has been done by the government and therefore society for that length of time. And can we actually ever wipe Wipe the slate clean is it's people have been seen as guilty for so long that are, they are always going to be seen as guilty no matter what. Um, the government says now or some people say now within society. Um, it's, um the rainbow community is seen in a in A in a shadow. Still, even now, and times have moved on, but and laws are changing, but it's gonna take a long time for for society to change their opinions and views on the community. Am I right in thinking that this had its premier performances prior to the historic conviction legislation being introduced in New Zealand? Um, actually, just after so I was I've been writing it for a few years before, Um, the convictions, uh, before the law change came into place. Um And then two weeks before the development season opened, the first reading was passed, so I then had to slightly rewrite the end. It didn't change the theme to it because it was always about the fight towards the change in the law. But the end of the play had was up to present day and present moments. So I had to change that to to be that that the laws had had changed in the UK. And then, actually, it was pretty quickly that the reading had been passed here, so and that came into place so quickly it we talk about it. And it was It was a year that people have been talking and saying, Oh, yeah, yeah, we we are putting a a reading through, and you know it's being processed. And it's like, Well, how many years is this gonna take? And then, you know, with within a few days, it had passed. And, um then, yeah, it was an exciting time because, you know, it was it was in current news. And it's so rare that you're writing a play where it changes so quickly, even just before and during the the run of the play. Um, yeah, because it takes so long for for the players to get onto the stage. It kind of highlighted that. Perhaps there needs to be more ways for players to get on quickly if they're dealing with current events because they change so quickly. But it was exciting at the time because we could use all of that publicity and go look at this isn't the news. This is happening right now. This is what it's about. And so what was the audience reaction to that to that first production? Uh, we got we got really good feedback. Um, I invited a lot of friends along, obviously, because it was my my first full length show, which, um, was really exciting. And a lot of the audience members were completely unaware of the history behind it. The history behind these famous characters, what they went through and the fact that the law change had only just come into place after 100/100 years. Um, and actually a lot of them were shocked and really touched by and upset as well as a lot of people who were emotionally upset yeah, were crying during the performance because they just didn't realise that this had happened and and actually were upset that they didn't know about it. So I think it's really important in the fact that it's letting people it's letting people into this important piece of history and and the background behind it. Um, also, um, I've got an amazing cast, which I've still still got. Now it's the third season of the shows. Same casts, same director. So it's it's really it's developed over time, and the cast have really embedded their characters and know them inside out. And the relationships are are are amazing. So and I've got an amazing technical person who's because there's so there's four different storylines. Actually, making those it clear that we're in different places is a is a challenge in itself. So, using lighting and background sound, we've managed to do that and it's and it's pretty clear now, So it has developed and changed. But since the first development season and also using people's feedback and using critical feedback, we've managed to clarify what we had first and then Now I think we're in a really good place for the show in terms of audience feedback. Have you had, um, either men that were directly affected by these convictions or the families or friends of these men contact you? I have had a few messages through social media, um, which don't directly say I have a conviction, but also but more so say that this has touched me and it and this has, um, affected me and and and, um, they connect with the themes. And they said that within within messages and which makes me think that there might be something else that, um which is, which is the thing at the time. At the moment, it's we might be able to change the laws, but if people have to apply for them to be changed, they don't want to go back. They've been hiding it for so long. They don't want to think about that. They don't want to apply to a government and to through the police who convicted them in the first place. Um, especially if they were entrapped by some of the methods that were used back then to, um to entrap men. Um and then to convict them and under under that entrapment. Um, so yet the messages are more cryptic and and you have to read a little bit more into them because people don't want to admit that they have convictions and that this has happened to them, even though we now well, society now should think that it's there was nothing wrong with what happened back then. But still, they've been hiding with someone, and they didn't want to talk about it or admit it or even relive it. And those convictions still, uh, can affect people on their daily lives. I, I imagine, like travel and and things like that, Yeah. I mean, applying for visas for different countries applying for work. Um, if they do a criminal records check, the those convictions are the on the, um, the offenders list. So they're on the list with, um, paedophiles, um, and rapists. And that's lifelong, though it it doesn't end after a certain period. That's for the rest of their lives. So there are men that have passed away with with those convictions, and and some are still alive with those convictions. So think the men that are still alive thinking back then when they were convicted, it was a very different world. So I think things haven't changed enough for them to to be able to face up to that. Do you know the extent of the number of convictions in New Zealand? Um, that that were brought about because of this? The there wasn't. I think I think the government have actually explicitly said how many? Because they kept They've released records for the eighties and nineties, I think. And there was a lot I think I've I've written down somewhere that there were thousands of convictions during that period. So if we extend it to, you know, over 100 years, then we're we're talking of tens of thousands of men here, Um, in the UK. It's, uh, around 50,000 men that were convicted under that under their law, Um, during the period that we we deal with in the play. So is a lot of men affected? Um, that's you know that that I've lived with this for so long that and it's taken so long for it to change. Um, and a lot of families that, um of these men probably don't know about it. So even if they have passed away, if they don't know about it, then they're not going to apply for for a pardon. Or some of the families don't want to face face that either. So, yeah, it's it's affected a lot of people. And for it to have taken as long as is it's quite horrific, really. So what hooked you into this particular topic to for your first full length play? What? What was it that drew you in? Well, I, I I've written full place before. It's just the first one that that has gone on. I thought it was so current that it needed to. I've developed and and developed it to try and get it on stage. Um, as soon as soon as I as I could I was As soon as I was happy with it. Um, I just I. I don't consider myself a political person, really in, like, everyday life. But my writing seems to always have political themes. I always seem to need a, uh uh a purpose for a play. And for this the purpose was so strong and so current that I I felt like it. It needed to be written, and I don't I didn't feel like it had been publicised or had been touched by anyone else, um, on in theatre or on screen. So I thought it was a Yeah. I thought it was important. Important enough to to write a full length play and had enough in it for a full length play. It probably has enough in it for several plays. Um, yeah, but this is this is the culmination of years of work. And yeah, I'm I'm pretty pleased with with how it's been, um, received and and and how it and the messages that it's, um, that it puts across. Now, can you talk to me about the differences between writing, say, for, um, a rainbow queer audience and writing for a mainstream audience? And you know what those differences are? Well, I think an audience has to connect with themes and has and they have to connect with the characters. So if I was to write, uh, I play with the same themes, but featuring characters that were not from the rainbow community. I don't I don't feel like, um, people would connect as much. And to the to the characters or the things because they wouldn't believe that the characters would connect to those themes either. So I feel like, um, to relate to a, um to a Romeo community that has to feature characters that they recognise and and believe that those characters have a passion for those themes and, um, have been affected by those themes. So I think you you have to you have to know what who your audience is and whether they will be interested in in the characters and the and the the play that's being put together. So you were writing specifically for a rainbow audience? Yes, yes. But also, I feel it's important for for everyone to to to know about these themes. I. I do feel like, um, a lot of people within the rainbow community don't know the extent to, um, to how these laws have affected people, especially younger people who've who've grown up in a in a, um, community that that hasn't had these laws. Um, and I feel like our our audience has has been an older, um, audience who still remember, uh, people. And and there's laws that that that affected those people. Um, it would be great to get a younger audience. So I think get them interested in in how history has affected where they are now because it definitely has affected the world that we live in today. So yeah, II. I think everyone needs to know about these things, especially if we want to continue changing the law. Um, it's only had its, um, first read through passed, so it isn't actually in law yet in New Zealand, even though it is in the UK. So it still needs work and and even the fact that we have to you have to apply for, um for it's, you know, for you to have your record expunged raises issues as well, especially for people who are still embarrassed about it. What about the marketing of the play and also getting sponsorship for the play? Is it harder if it's a rainbow play? I feel like you. There are specific organisations that, um, are are able to help the rainbow community, which is great. We we got funding from a royal foundation and um Rainbow New Zealand, which, um which has really helped, especially with the the transfer for is really it has been quite expensive taking bringing actors down from Auckland, putting them up here per D MS, um so that they can, you know, stay here, especially if they're not working at the time. Um, whilst they're here. So it's been essential that we got funding, but the play is specific enough and has political issues that still need to be addressed. And I feel like those organisations really saw what the saw the importance in those issues. And that's why we we got the funding from them and thought that the the patrons and, um, their their networks would support it as well. So will this play, um, be seen in other centres around New Zealand? Um, there's no plans as of yet, so we're hoping that we can get it on in the UK at some point. Um, um, I'm approaching theatres and producers over there to see if we can get it on it. It's It would be, uh, a big job producing wise to try and, um get a A company to to go over to, um to the UK. But I mean, there are funding bodies that, um would help with that, but it's so hard to to take things abroad. It was hard enough getting funding to bring it down here. Um, I think, uh, it it does, It's It's the things are worth publicising all over New Zealand. And, uh, some of the reviews that we got also said that it deserves to be on in every major centre in the world. Um, so that wasn't that was actually a review. And an audience member said that it should It should be in every major city, which, um, I would agree with it because there are still places where these laws are still in place. Never mind, um, men with with with convictions. Um, there are still men being convicted in some countries even now, So it's it's really important. What have you taken from the play? You know, you've obviously written it. Researched it, um, when you see it being performed on stage, when you see the audience reactions. Uh, what what do you take away from it? I've learned a lot about especially. I mean, I researching the play has been so fun and and learning about the world of Alan Turing and Oscar Wilde, um, completely different worlds and some of the um, some of their history, the things that they actually quotes, that they've said and, um, places that they've been the stories of of those places has been really interesting and and try and really trying to recreate that those places and those situations on stage has been really fun. Audience reaction. Um, I think it has been what What I hoped for was that people laugh at in at the comedy in it and don't hold themselves back. Um, and you speaking to people afterwards and and and reading reviews they, they get what the messages are, they get the characters and they are touched by the the themes. So I feel like I've succeeded in what I wanted in order to get from it, but also succeeded in creating authentic characters that people relate to and know from their own knowledge of of those characters and and connect to them and and feel for what they've gone through. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1940s ; 2010s ; Alan Turing ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Auckland ; Auckland Pride Festival ; Bats Theatre ; Benedict Cumberbatch ; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018 ; Enigma machine ; Events ; Historic Convictions ; Job ; Nazi Germany ; Oscar Wilde ; Pardon Me Alan Turing (play) ; People ; Rainbow Wellington ; Rule Foundation ; Stephen Fry ; Stephen Lunt ; Stuff ; The Imitation Game (film) ; United Kingdom ; Wellington ; Wellington Pride Festival (2018) ; World War 2 ; activities ; audience ; broken ; change ; chemical castration ; code ; comedy ; community ; computer science ; computers ; connect ; connections ; convictions ; courts ; criminal record ; crying ; data ; entrapment ; environment ; face ; family ; film ; forgiveness ; friends ; fun ; funding ; government ; hiding ; history ; homosexual ; humour ; knowledge ; law ; legislation ; mainstream ; marketing ; marriage ; maths ; media ; news ; other ; pardon ; passion ; patriotism ; performance ; poisoning ; police ; politics ; prison ; queer ; rainbow ; reading ; records ; relationships ; research ; review ; sex ; social ; social media ; spaces ; sponsorship ; stole ; strategy ; suicide ; support ; theatre ; time ; travel ; treat ; visa ; work ; writing ; yellow. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/pardon_me_alan_turing.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089817. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.