The title of this recording is "Out in the Bay". It is described as: Eric Jansen talks about Out in the Bay - a weekly LGBTI rainbow radio show in San Francisco. It was recorded in San Francisco, United States of America on the 26th June 2008. Eric Jansen is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 31 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Eric Jansen talks about Out in the Bay - a weekly queer radio show in San Francisco. The content in the recording covers the decades 1950s through to the 2000s. A brief summary of the recording is: The podcast "Out in the Bay," recorded in San Francisco on June 26, 2008, features Eric Jansen discussing the weekly queer radio show with the same name. The show that aired throughout the 2000s provided a platform for LGBTQ+ voices in a media landscape that often lacked such representation. Jansen, who also produced another successful public radio program called "Forum," conceived "Out in the Bay" because of the void in queer-focused radio shows in the Bay Area. Despite initial rejections from stations KQED and KALW, the timing eventually aligned with KALW's opening for a 15-minute slot, which later expanded to a half-hour broadcast, airing twice weekly. "Out in the Bay" faced significant challenges in getting radio stations to adopt the program. Traditional public radio stations were hesitant to air new programming, especially on LGBTQ+ topics, possibly fearing financial risks or the show's perceived niche appeal. Funding and sponsorships are crucial aspects of public radio, and the rules regarding sponsor messages are stringent. Jansen elaborates on the delicate balance of presenting sponsors in a way that aligns with public radio guidelines without direct endorsement or promotional content. Despite these hurdles, personal connections and persistence led to the program's inception, highlighting the importance of networking within the media industry. In terms of content, Jansen describes the show's focus on a blend of public affairs, entertainment, and personal storytelling. While its purpose is not explicitly to advocate for queer rights, the show naturally leans towards promoting acceptance and understanding of the LGBTQ+ community. Jansen candidly admits that although the show's bias is evident, the focus is on individuals' narratives more than political debate. Listeners' reception of "Out in the Bay" has generally been positive, with feedback from both LGBTQ+ and straight communities. The program has faced creative and financial challenges, particularly as unpaid labor. Jansen and co-producer Marilyn Pittman's devotion to the show is tempered by the reality of the need for financial stability, especially in an expensive city like San Francisco. Looking forward, "Out in the Bay" aims to reach a broader audience by syndicating to other stations and potentially expanding to an hour-long format, although this ambition hinges on securing additional funding. The show has begun to receive interest from other parts of the country, signaling potential for growth. Jansen expresses a willingness to broaden the team and bring in volunteer or paid producers to maintain and improve the quality of the show's content. In summary, "Out in the Bay" has been a pioneering queer radio show in San Francisco, overcoming initial resistance from public radio stations to provide a critical platform for LGBTQ+ voices. While facing financial and logistical obstacles, the show has built a significant audience and looks forward to broader dissemination and potential program expansion. The full transcription of the recording begins:  This programme was recorded as part of a Winston Churchill Memorial Fellowship in June 2008. My name's Eric Jansen. I'm the co host and co producer of Out on the Bay Radio. My fellow producer is Marilyn Pittman, and, um, we're sitting in Cafe Floor in Cafe. You know, Castro's gay neighbourhood, which is you can hear the construction noise outside. Everybody's getting ready for gay pride. They better hurry up and finish because we only got two days left. The idea for out in the Bay came from when I was previously a producer for a mainstream talk radio show in town, which was probably the most popular show on public radio in the Bay Area called Forum. And as a producer there, I got experience lining up guests and topics and thought, Why isn't there a gay show like this? And there should be one in the Bay Area. There was nothing like it. So I put together this proposal and approached KQED about doing that, and they weren't receptive to the idea that was probably six or seven years ago, and I shopped up to the other station, KELW, which we're on now, and They also at that time said no. Um, but, you know, the timing wasn't right. And what else? What are we going to drop to put that in? That was kind of their rationale. And that was right. After 2001, the Twin towers fell down. And, you know, nobody wanted to think of anything new at that point, and I just sort of let it go for a little while. And then one of the station announcers, David La Tuli. Um, I met him through the gay running club and he said that there was a 15 minute hole that had opened because some producer of some 15 minute science show had stopped doing it or was going to take a hiatus for a while. So it was a chance to propose this programme. So David and I proposed it together, and, um, and they accepted it. And we did it for, uh, I don't know, three or four months and they liked what we were doing and they said, OK, we'll give you half an hour now. And, um, that's That's the That's the start of it. And after another year or so, a little less than a year. They They started repeating it on Sunday. So now we're on twice a week. Um, and it's been on for 3. 5 years. Now, can you tell me a wee bit about how you, uh, pitch shows to those stations? Uh, what what kind of criteria do they use to to do their programming? And how do you pitch something like this? I honestly don't know how they choose their programming priorities. In the case of KQED, the I would say it's fairly rare that they try new programmes at all because they're fairly established. They put they air mostly NPR programmes. They do have a pretty big national excuse me locally produced news programmes, and they have a a show called, um, the California Report, which is about statewide news that gets fed to all the statewide stations. And for a while just before I proposed out in the Bay to them, they were doing a show called Pacific Rim, which is about, uh, Pacific time. But it was about Pacific Rim issues, you know, Asian countries and, uh, their inner how they relate with West Coast US, um, stuff. So they do do some local programmes. But how they make those decisions? I, I honestly don't know. They have to probably consider you know who's going to pay for it. Do they have a sponsor for it? Um, what kind of an audience will they have? And at that time, they didn't want to take a risk. I mean, they kind of told me they didn't want to take a risk on a new programme about gay issues. Um, which surprised me that even here in the Bay Area, they would they would say that. So with KALW again, this is a couple of years after, as I think, as gay issues got more popular and in the mainstream media throughout and KALW, I think, is a little bit more experimental in their programming to begin with, they were more receptive to the idea. Now I also think that it's personal connections make a huge difference. I don't think I would have even, well, I take that back. I did approach them previously, but once I had somebody who was kind of already had an in at the station, it became much more smooth to just hand it over and see what they said. So the proposal was really basic. It was just saying, Here's what we're going to do Here's the kind of you know we want to have a mix of public affairs and entertainment and, you know, interesting shows. We want to talk to people about their lives and have the voices of gay and lesbian people on the air, and and they're telling their stories in their own words. And because they had an opening for it, they were receptive to it. If they didn't have one, they probably would have said, Well, what are we going to dump to make room for this programme? So it's It's a I can't offer any specific advice. I don't think on how to do that. If it wasn't those two stations, is there anywhere else in San Fran? You could You could pitch this idea. Um, I don't know. I I don't I don't There are Actually there are many smaller public stations. Um, Cala and Berkeley is the station that's affiliated with the University of California. So they probably would have been receptive to something like that. KPF maybe, But again, KP FA. I think they have such a breadth of programming. And so many people want to be on that station. They probably would have a similar response. If if you can find somebody who if you can figure out what will drop to put your show on, you know, maybe we'll consider it. Uh, so probably wasn't a realistic alternative. There are a couple of other local stations that might consider something like that. But I didn't approach them. Um, I don't know if I would have or not. Honestly, when you're pitching to these stations, is there an obligation on your part to pay for air time or find sponsorship? Uh, no. Um, in both the case of KQED and KALW. Uh, well, KALW certainly currently is. They provide the air time because they want the programming. Uh, KQED might be. Might have been different in KQE DS case because they're sort of more. Um, I would say more business. They're more of a big business. They would probably want some, uh, assurance that there would be some sponsorship money coming in. I wouldn't have decided to pay for the time, but they would want that time paid for somehow. And if I was to able to help them identify a potential sponsor that would probably, um, make it go. That would probably be more likely to consider it. I don't know how the smaller public stations work here. I assume that most of them are. Most of their programming is produced by by volunteers. So again they wouldn't expect I wouldn't have to pay for air time. But they would not pay me any money to do it. And I also think that on some of the smaller stations, like the Cal station I mentioned, and there's one affiliated with the University of San Francisco here, they probably would not accept sponsorship programme with the with the commercial sponsor attached to it. So I that's probably one of the reasons I wouldn't approach them is because I at some point would like to be paid for the work I'm doing, and so I wouldn't want it on a station that I don't think we're going to get any that that would allow us to have a sponsor, an underwriter, and I should say, by the way, that when I say sponsor on a on a public station in the United States, you're not allowed to. There's very strict rules about what you're allowed to say. So it can't be like a commercial where you're saying, you know, come on down to Joe's for the weekly Blue Plate special for 795. But you can say Joe's Diner proudly serving the Castro community, and you can't say any endorsement. You can't say any prices. You can't have a weekly special. You can't even say Call this phone number, but you can say more information is available at and then give the phone number. You just can't have a call to action, so it's very specific about what you can and can't say. So that's why advertisers or sponsors are sometimes reluctant to do it because they don't know what they're going to get back for it. And if they and this is, it's primarily if they want to build their name, if they want to build their image, their community image like I think a foundation like Wells Fargo Bank has a foundation that they may want to sponsor a show like this because it shows that they're involved in the community. So it's good for their their branding and their image. But you can't say. You know, they wouldn't be able to say, come on down and open a new checking account. So in terms of, uh, the programme looking for sponsorship. Have you put together any kind of sponsorship package? We do have one. It's, uh, kind of rough. We're trying to finalise it, but, um, we have a sponsorship package that basically says for X amount of money. Um, you get, uh, 15 seconds, Uh, 15 2nd announcement or acknowledgement every week. Um, you know, brought to you by golds Gym or, um, out in the bay is underwritten in part by a generous grant from golds gym. Or you can pump every day. And don't forget about the steam room. Now, I don't know if I can say that or not. Gold's gym in its infamous steam room. I'm a member there. Did I answer your question? Yeah. II, I guess. How have you, um, how proactively, I guess. Have you been seeking sponsorship and and how's that gone? We haven't been very proactive yet, and that's what we need to do. I mean, that's our next job early is that we're going to be doing a little bit of REBROADCASTING some past shows this summer so that we can concentrate on this more. We need to get that sponsorship package finished, and we need to get it out there and go to various businesses and foundations and say, Here's what we're doing And we'd like your support and we do have a sense that there is support out there. I've talked to several people informally, and they've expressed some interest. So now it's up to me to just follow up and not be bashful about saying This is the budget we have. And this is the amount of money we need and be prepared to hear no from 20 people before one person says, Maybe so. Can you talk a wee bit about, um, the initial set up of the the the the programme, You know, the the kind of formatting of of what you wanted to achieve, uh, how how people reacted to it, Because, I mean, um, you you were saying earlier how this is, like one of the only, um, GL BT programmes in the Bay area. Um, how was it? How was it received? I think it's received really well. I'm actually quite surprised that When I go out to some sort of public event that's not in the gay community, I'll run into people, you know. They ask what I do, and I'll tell them about the show. And I'm surprised how many people say, Oh, I've I've heard that show And so I know that there's actually quite a large, straight audience out there, and that doesn't surprise me because we're on a public station, which is probably the listenership is probably mostly left of centre, though. They are liberal people who live in the Bay Area, and our show is only a half hour, twice a week, but just a half an hour over that whole time that people just happen to be listening. They happen to be driving. They happen to be washing their dishes, and they got the show on in the background, and I've been really impressed by the positive reaction. And then there's some, you know, within the gay community. First of all, let's face it, a lot of people don't listen to radio on a regular basis anymore, but those who do, once they've learned about the show, I think there's a little bit a there, probably are not as many gay listeners as straight listeners to the programme overall. But I think there's a certain gay core that will be repeat listeners because it's something that they relate to, and so they look forward to hearing it. And and then we've also got some podcasts up now so people can go to our website and podcast on a weekly basis, and we know that people are doing that in Texas, and we've got people in other states who are have found out about it for some reason and are listening. So that's that's great. Um, I think you asked another question there about, uh, our initial ideas for how it set it up. So initially when we were only a 15 minute programme, you know, I realised we weren't going to have a very good chance of getting people to come in live to the station to do an interview for only 15 minutes. Because the station is kind of a remote location. It's not right in downtown San Francisco, So we were pre producing more shows, and at that point I was doing more interviews like I even did a couple of interviews in my house, you know, I just had and which is actually a nice way to get an interview? It's very intimate. You just sit down on the couch with somebody like Go. Marga Gomez talked to her with her there, uh, talked with this guy who was a cop. Uh, he's into the leather scene and he's a San Francisco police officer and he's very well known in the community. And I sort of talked to him about what's that like to be, you know, a cop in the leather and the people you patrol. And he he works in like the gang. He works for the gang Crime Task force. So he works in one of San Francisco's toughest African American neighbourhoods, and they mostly know that he's gay and, you know, it's not a problem. And he also talked about the fact that we have this, um uh, stereotype image that, like as if there aren't gay people within the black community. I mean, and so he's just, you know, he kind of broke some of those stereotypes, and it was really refreshing to hear him talk about that. But anyway, that was done in my home and then I would edit it later, and that actually took a lot of time, like 10 hours to, like, talk to somebody for half an hour, 45 minutes and edit that down to the best 15 minutes. That takes a lot of time. So when we expanded to half an hour, Um, primarily now I do live interviews in the, you know, live on air People are also as the reputation of the show has grown, people are more willing to come that far, and, you know, it's not like it's that far. It's a 15 minute drive, but they've got to commit a full hour to like getting there, being on the air and and getting back home afterwards, and they seem to It seems to go pretty well. Usually, I mean, I have only had one or two times when there's been someone who's been hard to get them to talk for the whole half hour. But you see, the time goes by really quickly, and occasionally I'll mix in a little bit of sound like frame line. The producers of the film festival were on a while ago, promoting the fact that they have DVD S available so they had released Marlon Rigg's old landmark film Tongues Untied. And so I had some clips from the film that we were able to play during the show and have them sort of react to it and play off that. And so there's some There's some preproce elements, but, um, usually it's a live show now, and if I occasionally I will still we will still, and Maryland does more of the pre produced interviews than I do, we'll still occasionally go and interview people in advance and then edit it down. So we'll maybe spend 40 minutes with them and edit that down to 30. And so you do get a little bit more concentration of the best stuff, and we can edit out our own mistakes, make ourselves look good and then look bad. Um, so she's done that with comedians, especially people who are, you know, they're in town, a book writer or I think they're called authors. A book writer, um, or a comedian or an actor or something like that. You know, she'll just go and interview them in their hotel room so they don't have to go to the station because they're more likely to get time with them if we make it as easy for them as possible. And again, you can get a more intimate interview. Sometimes if it's not in the studio, I think because it's a you know, it's in a setting they're more comfortable with than you're just talking. Are there any underpinning themes to the kind of content and editorial direction you go in? Um, well, I think it's fair to say that you could say that we're advocacy journalists in the fact that we want to promote gay rights. I mean, there's no question that that's part of our agenda. And I think that some more conservative journalists would say, Well, you know, if we're having a show about gay marriage, then we have to have the other side on and we have to have people opposed to gay marriage. But for example, it may be an extreme example, but I don't really think that's true because, you know, people know that's where we're coming from and our bias is clear and it's not like we're usually advocating for or against any particular political issue. But we are, for example, we do an interview with somebody who is working on that battle. And so it's about them and their life, just as much as it is about the issue per se. Um, so So, yeah, I guess I would say that. That's one underpinning thing to it. And we're kind of, you know, we feel like that's a great thing, that we're sort of doing a cause based journalism. Can you talk a wee bit about the audience and who you're actually pitching the show at? I mean, is it a gay audience? Straight audience. The way I look at it, I just try to have a conversation that, uh, I think that anybody would be interested in listening to. I know that we have a lot of straight listeners. As I said before, I know that we have a lot of gay listeners, so I'm hoping that it'll be interesting to any of those people. I mean, it is in the back of my mind a little bit that we occasionally might have to, like, do a quick little explanation for some kind of jargon that may be in the gay world. And other people don't. The UN gays, as we call them, don't quite get it necessarily. Like if I talked about Pacific rimming, Um, you know, not necessarily. Every straight person would know what that meant, but, um, I think there are. See, I distracted myself. Now, I What was that question again? Um, no. So So And but you know, many times there are things we're talking about within the gay community, like the GB. If we could talk about, like, transgender issues, for example, we've done a few shows about specifically about transgender issues, and I know that in those cases, we're probably a lot of gay and lesbian people don't know much about that either. So even within the GLBT community, we're hoping that there's, um, interesting things that people within the community are getting something out of it, too. They're learning about people they didn't necessarily know about. You know, lesbians are learning about gay man stuff and vice versa. Um, and that's that's what I I. So if I figure if if it's interesting to me, then hopefully it will be interesting to most of the listeners. One last example. I interviewed charro a couple of years ago, and Charles is not gay. I'm not saying she's not I'm not outing her, but, um, I just thought I have a chance to interview charro. I'm doing it. And if I want to talk to her, then there's probably lots of gay boys out there who are infatuated with charro, too. So that's That was a good programming choice, I hope. What about? You can find that on our website. By the way, it's on the archives page charro. I'll make sure to get it up there before you get this up there. What about feedback from the audience? You know what? What kind of feedback do you get? We don't get a whole lot of direct feedback. We will occasionally get, uh, we get some emails once in a while. We've done maybe two or three call in shows in the whole time we've done the show. Um, about right after the, uh, the whole gay wedding thing happened in 2004 the first time around. We did a call in show kind of about that issue, and I was really surprised. Obviously. Like I said, we have a left leaning, supportive, mostly straight audience, and some guy called in and he was very well meaning and, uh, but he said I didn't know gay people couldn't get married. And I'm like, What rock are you living under? But you know, so I know from that standpoint, we are educating people, and, you know, like I said, he was very supportive, but it just like, you know, he just, uh where have you been? Um, so and then we did another call in show. Just, uh, just a month ago when the California Supreme Court made its decision about the mayor's decision. So we went for a full hour, took a lot of calls and, you know, again, mixed calls, gay and straight. But some of the straight people were obviously very supportive of gay rights, or they probably wouldn't have called in otherwise. Who knows? I mean, I thought maybe somebody would call in with some negative opinions, but they didn't. So, um, so the reception we get from the show that the audience reaction is, I would say, generally positive we get You know, every once in a while, we'll get something like, you know, how could you have such a boring person on and you know, But you know, that's happened once or twice, or somebody will take exception with the way one of us interviews somebody. But, um, Marilyn likes that, she says. If she gets criticised, then she's provoked somebody, and that's a good thing. So why do you think that out in the bay is one of the only gay and lesbian shows in the Bay Area? Um, that's a good question. I There is another show that I know of at least a couple of years ago. I don't know if it's still on. That was, um, specifically geared to arts and entertainment produced by the A guy who had it on the Cal UC Berkeley affiliated station. I don't know if that's still on. Uh, I sort of think that even in the Bay Area stations were kind of reluctant or squeamish to have a show that was just about gay issues until maybe three or four years ago when it became, um, you know, when gay issues were much more in the mainstream media, even television shows. So I'm not sure, um, you know, I'm not sure what happened to change that. I think it was on our part. I think it was just a matter of timing, and now it's well received. But I'm sure it would have been. I would think it would have been well received, you know, five or 10 years ago. So why it wasn't happening then? I honestly don't know. There was previously a gay, somewhat similar gay programme on KPFA many years ago, which I believe started in the seventies or eighties. So at that time it was probably really pushing. It was like, you know, KP FA was so kind of radical then, like to have a gay show on was just, like, perfect for them. But, you know, maybe as as gay rights became more prominent like, Why do we need a gay show anymore? Like it's almost, It's weird. It's a weird thing. It's like there's so much gay stuff going on here. Why do we need a radio programme about it? So it's not necessarily like an anti gay thing. It could be more like, Why do we need that? Because there's gay people talking about gay stuff all the time and all the media anyway, um, but it so I that may be part of the reason that there aren't other gay specific programmes now There is a commercial station that just started up about 2, 2. 5 years ago that plays dance music, and they've got these gay gay team in the morning. And so it's a very they're definitely being right out there. They're going after the gay market, and they're serving that niche very well. I mean, um, a lot of people and they are very involved with the gay business community. For example, the Gay Chamber of Commerce. Um, and they've got this guy the bad Greg the the Greg, the gay sportscaster who, at the end of his sports cast, he goes, If it's got, if they're playing with balls, I'm all over it. You know, he's got cute little lines like that, and they dish it up about entertainers and stuff. But it's kind of very it's more entertainment oriented and not usually very serious journalism. I would you know, that's my opinion, which is fine. There's no reason it should be. So you guys have been going for three years now. Uh, what have been the major challenges? Oh, dear, I don't know if I can say this. Well, it's, you know, there's tensions between me and Maryland. There's tensions when you're producing a show for free and you're spending a lot of work on it. You know, there's some creative disagreements occasionally, and people we get frustrated. Honestly, we get frustrated with, um, how much work we're putting into it, and we're not getting any money back for it. And that's, uh, I think that's probably the biggest challenge is that the Bay Area is expensive to live in. And how much time can we put into this thing to, you know, to get it to the point where it's bringing in some money? Um, so that we're not feeling like, you know, I don't can't won't be able to retire because, uh, because I've been spending all my time on this radio show instead of building up a bank account, um, you know, it's kind of weird to say that, but it's it's true. I. I would say That's the biggest challenge. Um, you know, occasionally there's a challenge like, Oh, what are we going to do next week? And we're scrambling and kind of at the last minute. But that doesn't happen very often because there's plenty of ideas as we get approached more and more now with authors. And, um, I think that might be a challenge right there. As time has gone on, we've possibly be gotten a little bit lazy about, um, you know, I think we were doing more portraits of people earlier on, and now we've sort of fallen a little bit back into interviewing people who are, uh, not necessarily famous, but have, like authors, local authors, people who have done something in particular instead of just interesting people. And because I think finding the interesting people that just happen to be out there in the world, that's a little harder to do. You have to really be out there and keep your eyes and ears open. Whereas, you know, once the publicist find out that we've got this station and they keep sending us books and, you know, you know, we'll look at the books and if they're interesting, we'll we'll interview them. But, um, you know, it's it does feel a little bit like, Are we losing? We have to keep track of Are we losing our original plan and being swayed into doing something because somebody else is pitching us? So that's a challenge But I wouldn't say it's a make or break challenge. And the original plan was, uh, the original plan. I think I would say that the original plan was we wanted to get gay, lesbian and trans voices out on the air and have people hear our stories directly. Um, Maryland is very big on the fact that, you know, we see a lot of gay characters in movies and television, and we can read their books. There's plenty of gay authors out there whose books we can read, but it's not very. We don't often hear other people telling their stories and audio Radio is a very can be a very intimate medium. And so it's important to us to have those voices on the air and to have people hear those those people in their own voices. One of the pieces I'm particularly proud of, that's that's on our website. Now it's featured is an interview, a two part interview that I did with um Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon. This is the 80 something year old, uh uh, lesbian couple who have been together more than 50 years, and they started this, um, the US S first National Lesbian Organisation back in the 19 fifties, it was called the Daughters of and So they're really gay pioneers. Um, and they tell about, you know, I had did an interview with them in their kitchen just around the kitchen table, and they talked about what it was like to be lesbian in 1950 here in San Francisco and what it was like to be gay Then, too, because they had some gay friends. And that was the time when, you know, the police were cracking down on gay bars. They were closing gay bars and having raids and things like that. And, you know, it's just not very many people who have that personal experience and to hear them talk about in their own own words and how they met each other and how one of them brought the other one out of the closet. And, uh, you know what it was like when they did a, uh, went bar hopping in the Castro, which was not a gay neighbourhood. Then it was just, uh it was called Eureka Valley. It was an Irish Catholic neighbourhood, but one of the bars, Twin Peaks, was there then, and uh, they said so We went to all these bars and we had one drink in each bar. But when we got to twin Peaks, we had a mistake. And then and the the older ones like, yeah, that was our mistake. We broke our rule. We had two drinks there and they had been talking about lesbian stuff, you know, at the bar, I guess. And then they they had to go to the bathroom. So they went up to the women's bathroom, which is up was upstairs then, as it is now, and they both went in at the same time. And pretty soon someone was pounding on the door saying, What are you doing in their get out? And they got thrown out because they thought they were having sex in there or something. So, um, you know, it's just interesting to hear their the way they talk about things. So it's It's a very that's what we're that's ideally what we're trying to do. Just get people's stories on the air. So if you want to hear about the the lesbian couple who was first married in San Francisco in 2004 and then again this past. In 2008, the mayor married them personally. Uh, they were the first ones out the gate this time, Um, their interview is, uh, from two years ago is up on our website. It's right on the front page. Um, so check it out. So three years down the track, um, where do you see the programme going in the future? Well, we have had some interest from stations in other parts of the country. Um, again, that's another thing that we haven't pursued aggressively. But we want to sort of start putting it out there to see where else, Uh, we could possibly get it on the air. If we can get it on the air in some other areas, then we may have to change it a little bit and have it a little bit less San Francisco centric in its flavour. But I don't think it's a real drawback because stations would expect, you know, a gay programme to be coming from San Francisco. And as long as there's plenty of New York programmes to talk about New York events, so I think we can I think we can do that. But once we If we can get on some more stations, we have a better chance of getting some sponsorship because, uh, a national sponsor would be more likely. An underwriter, I should say, would be more likely to want something that's on the air in several places. We We think we have somewhere between 10 and 20,000 listeners now, um so if you know if we get it to more stations, more listeners means underwriter would be more likely to go with us. The other thing that might happen is I could see at some point expanding to an hour if we got sufficient funding. That was my original idea was for an hour long programme and and in an hour long format, I think I would be I would sort of see, like, two or three segments. Uh, a more serious interview segment, Um, perhaps less serious art segment, maybe some commentaries. Originally, Marilyn was doing some comedic commentaries when she first joined the programme. Um, so it would, you know, I. I can imagine a format like that being really fun. But that's, you know, that's you know, there's a lot of ifs there. If we get some funding to support something like that. And it seems like at the time, should be, uh, you know, the time should be ripe for it. Can you ask listeners to do to pledge to to actually donate money? You mean, uh, we could We haven't yet. Um I know that, uh, one of the national programmes International programme called This Way out, which I'm sure you've heard of. They do ask listeners to send money, and they said a lot of their, um budget comes from from that. So, um yeah, we haven't done that yet, but that's another thing we could do. And we may do that in terms of kind of structure. Is it primarily based around yourself and Marilyn? Um, are you looking at kind of broadening that out to get other people involved and to possibly take over from when you leave or when I mean, for instance, if you say OK, well, that's That's what I'm I'm not doing it anymore. The the programme is just gonna stop. Um, I haven't thought about that a whole lot. We have thought some about getting some other producers involved. Uh, we specifically we're thinking that once we get some funding, and we can actually pay people to do some some stories to produce some pieces for us. That's would be a great way to get some people in. We have. I guess I could say that in a way. A part of our staff now is, uh, the folks who maintain our website, and they're not journalists per se, but they they do definitely devote some, um, time into having, you know, that's part of our That's part of our whole package. I don't know how many people we have who go to our website. I know there are certainly some, um but So if we had some, and so at this point, they're basically volunteering to do that. And, uh, I'm also sure they're a commercial business. So if we actually got some money coming in on a regular basis, they'd probably want some of that, and that would be fine. I would like, want to share that with them. Um, but yeah. If we can get if we could get some people to volunteer or some producers paid or not paid to help us with production, we know there's some other stations. Excuse me. Some other programmes at this at KALW, for example, that they have regular hosts. They're volunteers, but they have some volunteer producers and the producers help them produce lineup guests for programmes. And there's no reason we well, except that we want to control. Other than that, there's no reason that we shouldn't be able to find some producers who can help us, uh, line up guests for the show. So, uh, yeah, I may have to let go of that a little bit and let some other producers come in. Hey, if you're out there and you want to produce for us, let me know. Out on the bay at yahoo dot com, Just email me. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. 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