The title of this recording is "Sue and Berry - Older Lesbians". It was recorded in Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District on the 2nd April 2012. The duration of the recording is 38 minutes, but this may not reflect the actual length of the event. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Sue and Berry talk about what it's like to be an older lesbian couple in 2012. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: The podcast titled "Sue and Berry - Older Lesbians," recorded in Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District, provides personal insights into the experiences and contemplations of an older lesbian couple, Sue and Berry, navigating their life in the 2010s. Berry, at 74, and Sue at 65, discuss the shift in perception of what it means to be "older" compared to previous generations and share details of their life, which includes part-time work for Sue, their hobbies like singing and cycling, and the importance of preparing for the future. A significant portion of their conversation touches upon their past challenges, particularly around the impacts and hardships they faced coming out as lesbians during their contemporary cultural context. They reflect on past dynamics with their children, especially Sue's decision not to pursue a fair marriage settlement to avoid alienating their children while coming out. This choice had long-lasting financial repercussions for Sue, affecting their current lifestyle. Both Sue and Berry elaborate on the transformation of their family relations over time, describing how their children and grandchildren now warmly embrace them as a couple, marking a significant progress from earlier times of secrecy and discrimination. This growth mirrors broader societal changes and the gradual acceptance of LGBTQ+ individuals, although they note that invisibility and the need for caution still exist in certain situations and environments. Additionally, the couple speaks about facing heteronormative assumptions and the importance of having a supportive lesbian community, which has become increasingly vital as they age. They express concerns over potential future scenarios, such as living in a heteronormative retirement environment, and the desire to maintain independence and live in their home for as long as possible. The couple delves into the topic of legacy and the importance of being remembered as a partnership, both in life and after death. They share their intent to make provisions ensuring they are commemorated together and discuss the significance of their relationship to themselves, their friends, and their families. Other practical considerations the couple discusses include financial planning, health issues, and living wills to ensure their partnership is respected and prioritized in medical and legal situations. They have already taken steps like installing a lift in their home for future mobility needs and express the desire to spend their savings on maintaining their desired quality of life rather than leaving an inheritance. The conversation concludes with Prue Hyman thanking Sue and Berry for their candidness and contribution to the historical understanding of elder lesbian experiences. The full transcription of the recording begins:  I don't know whether you happily think of yourself as old or older or elder lesbians. Is that a does that feel right? That sort of does. I think you reach like we've reached the age where we feel we've got to start preparing for old age. But I'm 74 and I'm not old yet, so that's fantastic. It's about it's about thinking ahead, really, in the same way everyone has to. 74 used to be old and it isn't anymore, which is absolutely But, uh, and I think you're a bit younger, aren't you, Sue? I'm 65 and but it's interesting that we talk about that as different from our mother's generation and and different from. It's certainly different from the straight community that I was in before where Wales didn't work at all. So the 65 I feel quite often if I put myself in the place I was in the place I am now. It's quite experimental, you know. It's not been done before. It's I'm still working, so I get tired. You know, I have less energy. Um, you know, there are all sorts of things because I'm still working and holding down a job that takes quite a bit of energy, but it's good. It's good. But it's different. Is your paid work How much of a a week? It's only part time. So generally, if I'm lucky, I have Monday and Friday off. If I plan it well. But you want to have enough energy left for other activities presumably, I mean, what are the sorts of things you are liking to do apart from paid work together and all separately, we would be simple. And don't let me answer all the all the questions, but, um, we would definitely both be singing in the glamour phones. I probably would still sing in the choir. We would definitely be out on bikes doing that sort of stuff more. So the work that thing does impact on us on energy levels. Yeah, no doubt about that. So you can only do upset of the activities you want to do, and presumably that means you'll get to do four of them when you do get older. And if you manage to do this work, I mean, you're not going to go on doing paper work forever. I don't really, um I don't really want to sort of stop work before I'm 70. Because I love what I do. That's the first thing. The first thing is, I love what I do. The second thing was, I didn't go through a marriage settlement lots of years ago because of the situation I was in at the time coming out as lesbian and not wanting that to in those days. Um, how do I put this? The impact on my Children. This is not necessarily right. That's where I was back then. The impact on my Children would have been so great. But so we were saying this morning when we went to the lawyers that had I gone for a marriage settlement that was fitting and fair. We would be in a completely different situation now. And probably I might just work two days a week because I love it. So you you mean you didn't claim as much? No, no, no. Nothing. No, not at all. And why? Why Did was that a matter of your kids? That was about my kids. It was about, um, having my Children taken off me. I had, um and I'd lost my family, and I just thought that that it was too hard to do the next step and know that I and believe at the time that I probably might lose them all forever because they still held onto the hope for more money. You you might have lost irretrievable damage in terms of relationships, But you know, you're back seeing more of your Children. They are very close. They came back. Two of them returned to me and said they weren't going to be taken away. The third took lots of years quite a few years, but, um, but so that stopped me. That's the impact of coming out as lesbian as against, I think, a relationship that breaks up. There's a heterosexual relationship that breaks up even if the wife runs away with another fellow or has another relationship with another fellow in time, and that becomes quite acceptable. But not to run away. Not from rural New Zealand did did you have similar experiences when you were married, too, with kids. I was married with kids and I. I think probably the biggest impact for my Children was that they were required to keep secret that what I was doing, what I was who I was because there was so much shame attached to it. And there was so much discrimination. It was particularly overt at the time. What sort of er were were these 19? 80 right? Yours was similar time or not. So, um No. 1990 I suppose. Yes. Yeah. So it was very scary. And and all my friendships were around straight. Couples. Uh, yeah, it was very scary. But you too have a lot of contact with your Oh, yeah. We're both very integrated with our families now. And you've both got grandchildren, haven't you? So, um yeah. And so that facet of as you get older is more similar to heterosexual people in the sense that you've got lots of family, Children, grandchildren. Do you think this? I don't know how long you've been together. Now, quite you didn't come out new, and I newcomers we've been together 10 years, 11 years, 11 years. That's a reasonable time. But obviously quite a long time after you came out. And, um uh, do you feel that's somewhere where you're more similar with heterosexuals and that you've got these big extended families downwards quite apart from any siblings and and so on. Um, but, uh, do you feel that being a lesbian couple together ageing, you know, Does that have any impact in particular that's different from I mean, you you weren't ageing when you were heterosexual, so it's hard to say, but what? Is there anything you can put your fingers on around? How, um, ageing, as a couple as lesbians has had an impact was different. I mean, I could go down all sorts of tracks, the one I mean I will come back to the Children. But even the impact of our old lives the other part of our life, for instance, my life was rural New Zealand high profile. But if we go back, then if I go back, we go back, for instance, there are one or two families I'm still close to. They'll have a wedding, for instance. We've just actually come up with a sort of a recipe. Now we don't do some of those things together. I'll go on my own now. There's no doubt in my head at all that if Barry was Barry, it would be quite different to go back into rural community to a wedding that they're still very nice. They're very nice people and very gracious, But it's very hard to cut through and they know you. It just seems too much effort for both of you just to go together. It's just hard, really hard. People don't know what to say to be so they just say, Hello, Barry, and then talk to me, Lovely to meet you And then then then, yeah, so that's That's quite marked, You know, we've had to come up with all sorts of It's been quite hard, isn't it? It goes both ways. I mean, both of our families are very accepting of us as a couple. In fact, they value it, but they've come a long way since they have also come a long way since we came out and the world has changed somewhat, thanks to people who've been out all the time. So yeah, but there are still we are so careful who we come out to mostly that it isn't a big deal, but we still have. It's still a new consciousness, whether it's safe. Yeah, the other thing is, too. We've got different politics and politically from them. I change from from our Children. So and so my politics are quite different. And they started years ago when I just decided as a farmer's wife, to start doing some sociology papers at me because I felt dumb. So that changed my life but didn't change the lives of everyone around me. And now my Children and my, uh, have got Children. It's really interesting. So how are your politics? And their politics are different because, for instance, particularly around feminine, masculine and what will be little girls and what will be little boys and how we dress them and what we value and the dolls and the way the dolls are treated and make up bureaus at preschool. It's absolute against my po, my feminine politics. So much so that I'm we both are. But I'm I feel I just don't know what you do with that, you know, extraordinary. Imagine, and you've had special. You talk about your one of your your carefully and one of them one of my one of my daughters was desperate to have a daughter. She had two sons. The little girl for Christmas one year got a plastic dressing table bureau toy thing. It had makeup drawers it had, which had makeup in them. Big mirror hairbrushes, the whole treatment. That child's had her hair streaked since she was very little. It's and she's a highly intelligent, very capable little girl. Well, not now as well. But yeah, it's Yeah, it's It's interesting the way the next generation can often rebel. I mean, even if you are a feminist or not, Yes, I think so, Prue, I think, um, but on the other hand, I think the fact that you're feminist, lesbian feminist means it's easier for them to go. Oh, God, There she goes again. So they've got an out, and that happens over and over again, doesn't it? It does, uh, women shaving their genitals. So, you know, you can imagine some of the things we stand up on our hind legs and say, and it's there. There they go again. Or there she goes again. Yeah. So when you said you wanted to go back to your Children, was this the sort of thing you were going to talk about or something else? No, No, back. Yeah. Come. Yes. This sort of thing was exactly that. It's because it's it's one of the hard. I mean, it's we just have to shut our mouths and be lovingly accepting. And to some extent, to some extent, I mean because they've lovingly accepted us. And and we're not there, not for that reason. But we do but and also work out what you're going to say carefully. Yeah, it requires a certain amount of diplomacy and, um, closed mouths or and obviously with big families, your blood family have to take up quite a lot of your time. But you do have lesbian, family, lesbian community as well. Don't you talk about that? That's what keeps us saying, actually, doesn't it? Yeah. And I think as we get older, those people, that community of friends becomes more and more important. Is this what you generally hear? Because this is very, very much so for us. You know, we sometimes come back and we just go, Oh, thank God you're here to our lesbian friends. I mean, someone like me who has virtually no blood family in New Zealand and has no kids. My you know, I don't even have to appreciate it because it's there for me. Most of the time. I'm lucky in a way, although, of course, nobody regrets having kids. Or and my partner has, uh, has 11 son, sadly, a daughter that died, but but not much family. So she doesn't have those same problems. She's got grandchildren, So we're really probably in a rather different position where we can be with our lesbian family most of the time. So but I think I have heard other people say what you were. You were just a lovely feeling of just the bond that people have. Most of us have been through a similar process to each other, not the same, but similar. So most of us know that have come out under the difficult circumstances. Know the terrific, um, angst attached to that wasn't there. Yeah, very much everybody. There's pain attached coming out, and in the early days, so and it's lovely, you don't have to. We just know that of each other, don't we? We know each other in a way. We didn't I think that we didn't know our heterosexual friends when we were married, and even for those of us who, like me, came out much younger and, um didn't have the issues of of um uh, being in a heterosexual marriage or anything, you still had those things. I was out in the sixties, so I had my mother to worry about and a community yours must have. I mean, you're the courageous ones. That's definitely the case. But some of it's what? You know, I mean, we Yeah, we used to get I think we've both had examples of in the early days people, not you, but people like you sort of making sure we know, in fact, feeling quite resentful that you've paved the way for us to come out. Well, it certainly, I mean, the real pioneers. Who, uh, who have I mean, I came out more as a sports lesbian. Um, and what didn't get the politics so much until later? The early political people that did circle and so on. Now, what about the business of of just living as you get older and the issues you face and whether or not they're associated with being lesbian? I mean, we all have to face health and money, and so on issues. Is there anything around that? Should you, um, where are we going to be buried or burnt together? or not. I mean, that's that's a bigger one. I don't know if it's bigger that that those sorts of issues bring me back to spirituality, spiritual issues. And they've changed for me hugely. And I'm still sitting there in a and a bit of a, um no woman's land, working out what the next step. And I think that happened to quite a lot of us, too. You know, for me, it was different for you from you. You were because you were brought up. Yeah, yeah. Whereas for me, I I was brought up. I played the organ every Sunday in an Anglican church and at weddings and in funerals. And so Anglicanism was just who I was and took Children's choirs and you know everything and I haven't found. And and the lesbian coming out as a lesbian didn't need to impact on that at all, except it did that did. Can you say at all how, uh, well, I guess the beginning of it was I guess the beginning of it was, um, around feeling judged and being judged and feeling a loss of my of the church family, and I did. But that's nothing to do with it now. What it's to do with it now is that I don't actually believe all that stuff. I used to believe. I've got a different take on things. I don't know if that's even relevant for now. Why is it an issue for you now? Because I can't because it's really comfortable and nice. There's a comfortableness along about going somewhere and singing the wonderful music. And you do that, don't you? I talk about singing Jewish on Saturdays as Christian on Mondays, and I just regard it like literature. You know that, um, like, you can read Shakespeare or the Bible or whatever, as as literature, I can sing. Uh, that's a good That's a good way of looking at it. Yeah, our life together as we get old, gives me the horrors to think that we could ever have to end up in Seven Oaks or anywhere like that. Sitting amongst a group of people who are all heterosexual. I used to think that we both said we'd visit my mother over in master and one, and we used to think how alone and lonely wouldn't it just be the absolute end, if that's what happened, and I think that's we assume. In fact, we've experienced in those places that there's an assumption of heterosexuality. So you're always up against that assumption? Absolutely. And that's why some people are trying to set up lesbian villages, the homes. But ideally, you would like to stay here in your beautiful house in as long as you possibly could. Absolutely. And then when we're hobbling in our wheelchairs by the little place next door. So we're in the same street and have all there are lovely little flats around the corner that other lesbians and have a little enclave or by the beach or something. But not there wouldn't be the same we come to If you found something, wouldn't we? We just can't afford it. So the other problem. It's of the issues of of health and and, um, finance and so on, you know? I mean, we're probably looking at this house and no mind where it must be in better places financially than some lesbians are, but there's there's no assurances. That's right. That's right. Have you done any thinking ahead about those money issues we put in a lift for wheelchair where where is that. Oh, you can have arrived in it shortly. So that brings up all our firewood and into the house with our groceries. Suitcases if we're travelling. Wonderful. Yeah. So that's made us feel confident to stay on here because you both had some health issues, haven't you? Nothing life threatening. Well, I've only had joint issues, so just get them replaced. Yeah, And every month that I get away from, you know, every month is freer than I was the month before, so but our main issue is working out How you know, you'd be the same. You've got a certain amount of money saved. How long is it going to last you before you've got to leave this place or leave your place. Yes. Well, I haven't had dependent, so I'm hoping the answer is never. But it isn't necessarily for everybody. And it's how to arrange things if possible, if you can. I mean, there's things like reverse mortgages, which, um I don't know whether you've thought about, but we have We have Someone was saying the other day they cost such a lot of money. New Zealand is not geared up well, for which is a pity, but it is possible. We're also making it. I mean, I guess this is a general issue. Actually, it's not exclusively lesbian, but we're making sure our Children know what we want and don't anticipate a windfall when we die. Yeah, because we feel absolutely free to spend whatever we've got. We've earned it. Well, also, we have to if we want to stay in our lifestyle and do what we're doing and sitting here having cups of tea and with Prue Hyman, and then we need money and it's ours. And just as one shouldn't be, presumably, I mean, some couples, um, heterosexual or lesbian or gay? I don't know about gay men. I mean, sort of have some assumption that, um their kids will look after them when they get older on the one hand. And kids have expectations of money, on the other hand, and in fact, you can't be sure about either. Yeah, exactly. The the The Children don't have any expectations that they have to look after us at all, do they? Well, I think that probably will be there for you and your son, But you wouldn't want to have to be dependent on. Never. I never make an assumption. I mean, one of my sons has said yes, your kids will look after you, and they can, but, um, I don't want to make that assumption. That's I want to Yeah. Now you talked about, um, how you you know, because you're still working. You don't do as much singing and, um, want to do other things as you want. What what are the Are are there other activities you want to do? More of as you as you get older and and have, um, maybe have more time. But on the other hand, we also slow down a bit. Other things you want to do. I want most of our music. It's music. It's music or attaching things attached to the beach. But also when when did we last see you and sit down? This is absolutely lovely, you know, And and actually, because our social life has shrunk and it's on purpose, it used to be far too big. It shrunk, and some of it's wrapped around the fact that I'm still working and that makes it sound like a bird. And it's not. It's because I love it and we choose it, and Barry still does some of her things. Um, but I think most of it will be having the the joy of Imagine today, Prue. We could have rung up you and vice versa and said, Hey, it's a lovely day. Let's hop on our backs and meet some halfway and have a of tea, that sort of thing. That's community, that's lesbian community. And that's the sort of thing that I really hope happens. What about other things? I mean, do you want to travel or, um, anything like that more? I'm not fussed about there. I love it. I love it, but But there's that sense that and this is not particularly lesbian either, I think. But if I wanted to travel, I'd far rather travel with Sue. But also I would be taking too big a piece out of the pie. I think that that's very much in there. Yeah, so, um, travelling is very on the back burner and I think that's what it is. I think it's absolutely so become quite psychological now inside me, like we won't be doing that because we did a big trip last year and another big one the year before the year or two years before that. Um and they cost a huge amount of money. They did that. It's actually not feasible now. And And we might do things like be big and brave and go to parts of Northern Australia or to the Islands. But we haven't got the money. We're just not resourced enough to even think like that. Prove that's gone. So you had your last two? Basically, Yeah. Yeah. And we're just not. And now we've just had one of my Children and family have just settled here. They've just come over from Europe unexpectedly, and they've settled here. So we actually hasn't haven't got any Children or close mates or anyone over the other side of the world to pull us over there like you've still got your your, um, connections, Special connections. We don't I don't You don't either. He's just Yeah, yeah, Long way away. But at least in New Zealand, Yeah. And no sisters or brothers or I mean, you've got strong connections over there. Still just a bit more friends, One brother in America, otherwise friends. But but, you know, because I didn't have dependent, I guess. I. I can still do it if I want to. And, um And what about Do you ever think at all? I mean, as you say, you don't feel old, is you know, we hope we've all got lots of years to go, But do you ever think at all about you know, afterwards and And how will you be remembered or anything you want to be remembered by or? I mean, you've got the kids, Of course. So you have automatic them people remembering you. I'd hate to think, uh, my, my, the women on my mother's side of the family right back are strong women with stories to tell pioneering women in lots of ways with stories to tell. In some ways, in my family, you could say I'm a pioneering woman like I've done things that haven't been done before because certainly we think now that there was probably a lesbian Aunt Gladys in the process and gay uncles in the South Island. So what am I doing about that? Nothing. Except that How are we going to be remembered? Because we need to be remembered that Sue and Barry were a partnership and Sue was a lesbian and we need to be remembered. I don't know. I mean, some of it I'm wondering like I've got this big new project that I'm sat in this room with a big pile of campus on the floor and I'm going to whittle. I'm going to put it, turn this room into a wood carving and I want to make a totem pole there. He's been to see Alan, whatever his name is looking for a tutor. And he said to go to because I want someone to teach me how to do it. Yeah, and part of it is I want to have us. It won't be all the Children, but it will be burying me and the and the mountains we've loved. And there's something on it that's going to be a statement. That and I've got that far. So I'm looking for a couple of Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. There isn't it? And God help. Yes, that's right. She might want to write that something to go with it. It sounds like you know you want to be remembered as a couple. I often wonder whether people want to write mini autobiographies, not publication or It's a lot more. People are doing oral history of their family sort of thing. Um, yeah, it's just, um I think it'd be Yeah. It's a good conversation to continue, actually, isn't it? Because I would say a family of strong women. My mother was she was at my age, protesting against the Springbok to in the 1980 something she belonged to. Do you remember an organisation called S OS? Abortion rights. And she was a very She got a degree at a time when women didn't go to university. What was her name? May long. Oh, yes. I didn't even realise. There you go. I heard she worked in the university library for years. I didn't even know she was your mother. There you go. So she was? Yeah, she was very. And she was quite radical, wasn't she? She was very independent thinking, as was her mother. Yeah, she is. She was She had to get to house train, Dad, He he was very conservative. Just thinking of legacies and being remembered. Of course, Um, as you mentioned your ongoing activities and one of those is that you're a celebrant. Of course. So you've been involved with other people. Sort of being talked about you. You've You've done one or two at least lesbian funerals. Have you? Um, yes, I've done a few civil unions. Um, yeah, it's That's a very special thing to do. It feels incredibly privileged to be facilitating, I suppose for what I would be a word, but to be such an integral part of a huge event in somebody's life and I love it, I absolutely love it. Yeah, and certainly the lesbian funeral. I won't mention the name that we talked of a little before. We started this tape, which is a friend of mine, who you did one for. But she was not very out, But there was still just enough stuff around her being a strong woman and I, I think. Probably I. I outed her at the, uh, ceremony because I can't help myself. She asked you to speak, so she must have known she was taking a risk. But have you done one for any really out lesbian? No, I'm not. Probably will, but it was a very interesting experience planning that funeral because she was very involved in it herself. I mean, the ceremony was how she wanted it, which was really nice. It was nice to know that she'd got what she wanted, and I mean and she was so totally involved with women. I mean, she had her family, but she she had a She had a lovely too Yes, and he was out just as a gay man. And she herself had been involved in sports teams and was very, very involved with other women. That's right. Yeah, that the experience is probably different for people like that who are not that out. You know, I'd like to interview one of them too, but it might be hard to get them to do that. You put your name on it will be a challenge. We made quite a few conversations about our own funeral and what the hell we're going to do about that and what that's gonna look like. And anything you want ramifications about that? Well, because it's like, Yeah, exactly. You've got the two and and us. So the lesbians, Uh uh, family and, uh well, we're in the middle of it. We're part of each and the lesbian funeral. That or or celebration that we imagine is out lesbians would be one. That would be fine for our kids, I think, Yeah, I think it would be very fine for our kids now. I mean, the kids have gone through a process with us. Well, certainly there's been There's been plenty where the combinations worked, Right? Bronwyn Dean, Judith, Dale. I'm thinking of funeral people. I very close, very close to. And the families were good about everything, but it was they were very heavily a lesbian. Funerals as well. I think part of the difficulty is certainly in my case. My Children don't know very many of our lesbian friends because they don't live here. They don't come across them, whereas your kids have had more of a chance to get to know some of your friends. So it would probably be a little bit like a New Zealand party with men around the bar. But nevertheless, they know that we expect to have anybody who wants to be there. And they need to prepare themselves for that and to speak, to speak, to see what your what You meant to that? Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think you should have actually should have a joint. Wait long before you did as well. I think that it was, but she didn't want any speeches or anything. It was just a party, really, wasn't it? Um, and she didn't want any sort of. And she was very at peace with the fact that she was dying. That was an amazing one, because it was so fast. I mean, she hadn't had a day's illness, and then suddenly she had a bad cancer and she was dead within three or four months, and, uh, she was amazing. She was, Yeah, She said, I've had a really good life and I have no regrets, and I'm ready. But yes, I think that that's the other thing that we need to do for our Children. Because, um, my kids have just been through that with their own father. They with their father, who died very suddenly. So they had to sort it all out. Um, which is when they started saying to us, You've got to get clarity about your well, and you've got to get clarity about how you want your funeral to be and following along that that business about us afterwards and what we leave the legacy just to we haven't really. We've got to funerals and things, but actually the most. The most significant or the most important thing would be that we're either burned in our ashes, put somewhere together or buried next door to each other with a with something that says Be, um so partner, lifelong partner or or whatever. That's what has to happen, actually, isn't it? And that's what we need to everything. I mean, that's in the newspaper acceptance, because it's sad when when it isn't like that. I've just had one of in the cricket community where the odd much older partner died and it was just, you know, lifelong friend or something. You know, it's sad when I think it's sad when it's also part of the whole sense of insecurity around the public. Actually, that was something lovely that happened when my mother died last year. You remember that that my mother, who had such a struggle and towards the end of her life group, is hugely attached to Barry and the person in my family that knew that was my sister. And when it came to putting the the death notice in the paper, that was, um, going to be very formal, and she was the the late, bloody, blah, blah. And then it came to be and there was a bit of hesitation around that, and my sister was the one. Do you remember that? She just said She's partner of Susan. That's what's to go in the paper. So Barry, partner of Sue and said lots of people commented on that it was a real go for us and my family, especially for a family that has historically been so conservative. It was absolutely amazing, and we expect a backlash from other members of the family. I was just thinking, We must remember that here we lie together alongside each other in whatever shape or form. I think all three conversations I've had, there's been somebody think Oh yes, that's a good idea to it, which is, which is a nice um, I sort of I can't think of anything particular else I want to ask you. But have you got any thoughts, any more thoughts about anything that we think about it and we did things I think, um, I don't know whether I said this before. I think that there's an issue about next of kin. If you're in hospital and who's your next of kin and do you have to prove it when it's a natural assumption? Assumption. If you're married that your marriage partner is your next of kin and it's, you know you have to convince the hospital staff. Yes, I mean, I think that's a very serious one. I mean, I at any age I remember because when I was partners with Bronwyn and and she got it all quite young and, uh and things happened, like, actually cut crossing out next to kin and partner or something and putting friend cutting out. That's right, crossing out, putting friend. Now they're not meant to do that anymore. But a lot of people aren't, but some of them will, because of their own beliefs. Yeah, yes, we do have to watch that. That's a biggie, actually, and you can see that that could happen because there are little pockets in the family already. For instance, in my family, who sometimes I'm known as Grand Sue to the Children, right, so some of them will walk in and say, Hey, here's Grand and Bey's house. One or two of them come in and say, Here's Grand Sue's house. Here's grand. It's true, isn't it? Yeah, so that's just one step of it. Would be quite easy. And you've just got to protect yourself from that. That's because that's quite a biggie. And I mean, if you don't have things very clear, then if one member of your family is not too good, they can convince an authority, a hospital or something that that daughter or son or whatever is the the main person. Not, yeah, it's great. You've got your powers of attorney and the things that you can produce. And we did that quite a while ago. Yeah, yeah, well, let's hope none of this is relevant for a long period. There won't be because we're going to have those bike rides on the beach and have a cup of tea. Well, thank you very much for for talking to me today. It's been, uh, it's been a very pleasant experience for me, and I hope you it's been great. Thank you. It's been very thought provoking, So thank you. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. 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The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Anglican Church ; Anglicanism ; Australia ; Bible ; Bronwyn Dean ; Christmas ; Europe ; God ; Job ; Kapiti Coast District ; New Zealand Party ; Older Lesbians ; People ; Prue Hyman ; Stuff ; abortion ; activities ; bear ; blood ; butch ; capital ; cats ; celebrant ; celebration ; change ; children ; choirs ; church ; civil unions ; coming out ; community ; connections ; conversation ; cooking ; cricket ; death ; discrimination ; dolls ; elder issues ; elders ; energy ; expectations ; experimental ; face ; family ; fear ; feminism ; fire ; friends ; fun ; funeral ; gay ; grandchildren ; grief ; hate ; health ; hell ; heterosexual ; history ; hit ; hope ; hospital ; legacy ; legs ; lesbian ; library ; lifestyle ; listening ; loss ; love ; makeup ; marriage ; masculine ; music ; news ; older age ; oral history ; other ; pain ; partnership ; peace ; politics ; prince ; profile ; recovery ; regrets ; relationships ; religion ; rural ; sad ; schizophrenia ; sexuality ; shame ; shoes ; siblings ; singing ; sleep ; social ; sociology ; soul ; spirituality ; straight ; struggle ; suit ; the other side ; time ; travel ; truth ; unions ; university ; walking ; wills ; women ; work. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/older_lesbians_sue_and_berry.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089248. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.