The title of this recording is "Malcolm Vaughan profile". It is described as: Malcolm Vaughan talks about the many Wellington bars and hospitality establishments he has owned or worked in over the last five decades. It was recorded in Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar, 176 Cuba Street, Wellington on the 19th January 2022. Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 1 hour and 22 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Malcolm Vaughan talks about the many Wellington bars and hospitality establishments he has owned or worked in over the last four decades. This is part one of a longer interview - part two can be heard here. The content in the recording covers the decades 1970s through to the 2010s. A brief summary of the recording is: This summary focuses on the extensive interview with Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan, a veteran in the Wellington LGBTQ+ hospitality scene. Recorded at Scotty and Mal’s Cocktail Bar, where they celebrated nearly 15 years in business, Malcolm discussed their imminent retirement disrupted by the COVID-19 pandemic. The interview delved into the effects of COVID-19 on Wellington's nightlife, revealing a significant impact on the hospitality industry and the introduction of vaccine passes as an adaptive measure to keep bars operating safely. Malcolm reminisced over the evolution of the client base at S and M’s bar, noting the cautious behavior of customers, especially regarding the Omicron variant, and observed a decrease in weekday trade. The bar prides itself on prioritizing the safety of the clientele and staff by ensuring the use of matching IDs with vaccine passes and has noticed a difference in crowd types since the pandemic. Furthermore, Malcolm recounted the history of their journey in the bar industry, from opening Scotty and Mal’s Cocktail Bar in 2007 to the challenges faced along the way including ownership transitions and financial hurdles. They highlighted the importance of possessing a passion for the hospitality industry and staying true to their belief in the LGBTQ+ community despite the notion of gay bars becoming unnecessary. Their commitment has been to always provide a space for the queer community in Wellington. The decor of S and M's is described as reminiscent of New York-style bars, with significant efforts invested in remodeling to create an inviting atmosphere. The bar's photo wall pays homage to the rich history and personnel of the establishment, serving as a memorial for past artists and acts to preserve LGBTQ+ heritage. The operating schedule of S and M's shifted from six days a week to four due to the impacts of COVID-19. The clientele, previously diverse and international, is now predominantly local and more cautious due to the pandemic. The bar enjoyed significant attention from international theatre productions and offered a welcoming environment for both LGBTQ+ individuals and their allies. Malcolm also reflected on previous ventures, such as Pound Nightclub and the Dome bar, emphasizing the changing nature of nightlife and hospitality, as well as the marked shift in demographics and attitudes within the queer community over the years. Despite these changes, Malcolm maintains a focus on providing opportunities and chances to people, just as chances were afforded to them throughout their career. The full transcription of the recording begins:  Hi. I'm Malcolm, and we're sitting in our bar mine and Scottie's Bar in, uh, Cuba Street in Wellington. Scott, Mel's bar and the bar has been around for a number of years now, hasn't it? Yeah, we're just, uh, just about to end our 14th year in the bar, and and we start our 15th year on the seventh of February. So we've got a big party coming up. There was some, um, media coverage last year about, um uh uh, You and Scottie retiring? Yep. Yep, yep. That's a big one. That one is, Um, yeah, we were retiring. We were planning. We've been doing it for a long time and and collect. I think between us, we've got 73 years in the hospitality industry and myself, having worked for over 40 years within the, uh, LGBT queer community. Um, and we just got to that stage where we're getting on in life now. We're not sort of like as young as we used to be, and the hours sort of tend to take their toll after a while. So, um yeah, we decided last year we were gonna sell up and move on. And what happened there? Um, a great thing called covid came along. Uh, we had, uh, out the bar and got some new owners all in mind. And, uh, paperwork was done. The landlords were all happy. And the day we were due to sign, um, covid came along and just put a hold on it for a couple of months. And then, uh, after Auckland being in lockdown for four months, Um, the prospective buyers got a little bit of cold feet, of course, with covid. Understandable. So they've just backed off for the temporary time. And, uh, we've decided we'll keep the bar and keep it going for another year and put it on the market again at the end of this year. How has covid impacted? Um, just nightlife in Wellington, because we we're We're two years into it now, aren't we? We're two years into it. Yeah, and it has been a bit of a struggle, and I think, um, I think it's a commonly known fact that hospitality, um, throughout New Zealand is basically on its knees. Um, 48,000 businesses have gone under alone since covid came along, so I think everybody's had a a fierce swipe at being slapped by covid. Um, it is dreadfully, um, affected all of the hospital and and, uh, throughout New Zealand, not just the gay and lesbian venues. Um, but, uh, we're a firm believers that, you know, sooner or later, this is gonna come to a bit of an end sooner or later. Or, uh, you know, ride the wave. The tide can't stay out forever. If you keep that belief, you got something to cling on to. What kind of changes have you seen in? Um, you know, the crowds coming into S and M, um, you know, numbers, uh, type of people. Um oh, yeah. There's definitely definitely numbers. Uh, numbers difference, Um, in in what we'd normally do. Um, people, uh, people, I think are a little bit more wary. Still about going out, especially with, um, the the new macron, um, virus going around. And people are becoming much more reticent about coming out. Um, you don't see them during the week as much as you normally would. Um, but they sort of band together on Fridays and Saturday nights, Which is seems to be the main nights, of course, But, uh, you can definitely notice a drop off in trade during the week, and something that's just happened is the, um, Advent advent of the, uh, vaccine pass. And how is that going for for here? Fantastically, actually. I mean, if we were operating under level two, which was, um, single service. You've got to have a lot more staff on. You had somebody on the door, um, checking, um, passports and things like that. Um, now with this with the new traffic light system, um, we can have as many people in the bar as we like, Um, and there's no social distancing like two metre distancing apart. Um, you can't pick which day of the week is gonna be a busy one. but you can control the amount of people that come in. So it's it's really working for us. Everybody having a double vax and also showing, um, matching ID because it would be quite easy for somebody to forge um, uh, a vaccine pass or use somebody else's. So if you just play the game and do the matching ID with the passport, then you're just getting, um, the right people in the bar. So what? You're really in effect doing is is, um, looking after your clientele and looking after your staff, Um, and hopefully reducing the chance of catching one of the viruses. This interview is going to be all about, uh, some of the various, um, establishments you've you've worked in and owned. Um, which is, uh, yeah. I mean, you are just such an amazing wealth of knowledge. Um, given that we are in S and MS, Um, do you mind if we start with M and and tell me, um So when did you come here? We first came here in, uh, 2007 was our first year here. Um uh, I think it was around about August. No, no, it was February. Because it was the day after Scott's birthday, and, um, we opened up on Waitangi weekend, which was, of course, it was a public holiday the next day. So our continued birthday for the last 14 years has always been, um, on Waitangi Day or the day before, so that we actually get a public holiday the next day so everybody can have a bit of a sleep in, You know, if they've been out on the turps the night before. And what did you have? An idea? I mean, what did you think was gonna be? Well, it it happened rather, uh, quickly for us, To be quite honest, we were, uh we had pound the nightclub before S and MS. And we'd we'd taken it when we closed. Pound down. Um, we took a year off and we were helping some friends set up, um, the lanes, the bowling lounge in Wellington. And, um, we'd been there for we were only supposed to be there for three months, and I ended up staying there for 13 months. And, of course, we'd make an annual pilgrimage every year to, uh, Vinegar Hill, the gay camping spot. And we got approached by the particular owner of Of S and MS who owned it under a different name at that stage. And he said, Look, I've got this bar and it's not doing very well and, you know, how would you like to take it over and manage it? And so we we said, Look, we're going on holiday to Vinegar Hill. Let us have a couple of weeks off, and we'll, uh, have a chat to you when we get back. So we both came back to Wellington. We both walked into the lanes and thought, looked at each other and thought, it's time for a change. So, uh, we took over, um, the managing of of the bar. And I think we were about two years into it. Um, when we got the opportunity to buy it. So we did. We bought it home, um, out. And of course, we had no money in those days either. So, um, everything was on tick, but we managed to pay it off. Um, and, um, 14 years later, still here. When you think about managing or owning a bar, what are the things that you have to kind of consider? Oh, the social life aspect that you're giving up because hospitality does take over your lives. Um, we realise that, uh, but that's one thing you really have to contend with is that you don't really have a AAA social life. Um, also, um, is it gonna work? You know, you've got to have a gimmick. Um, which, uh, we've been very lucky with the LGBT community. Um, we've always had, um, a good following. So that's sort of, um, been a stand fast for us as well. But I think that the the social, um aspect is one that you really do miss, um, and making sure that it works, and I think to keep a business going for as long as we have. It's, um it's it's been a tough ride at times, but at the same time, um, it's a passion that you have, um and, um, people say, like, if you sell up, you'll be back in the business within two years. Um, and we were sort of like, No, we're not. Um, but as it turns out, here we are. We're back for another year. So sorry, Wellington. You're stuck with us for another year and and you say gimmick. But actually, you have done so much. Um, you both have done so much for the rainbow Communities in Wellington. Uh, because a lot of what you've done has been really community orientated. I mean, it's not gonna make money. It's It's more than I can. Yeah, well, it is, I suppose. I think it's like as I said, you've got to have a passion for it. Um, you I remember sitting on on, um, the steps of Alfie's nightclub many years ago. And I was chatting to Michael Moore and he said, What's gonna happen when it comes to time when we don't have to have gay bars? And I said to him, Then there will always be a gay bar where I'm in town and, um, I've chosen to I love Wellington. It's It's the place that I grew up. And it's the place that I find the most friendliest. Um And so that has been true words. It's always I've always kept, um, a venue going in Wellington. Um, there has been times when we haven't had a venue, but you go to Lent to make sure that you can find one, which happened after the closing of Caspers and we had no venue. And, um so then we sort of like ran around and saw a friend of mine that I owned another bar that was not doing very well. And, um, we said, Look, we've got this bar. We haven't got a gay bar at the moment. Let us take this over. And, you know, we can make some money for you and some money for us, you know, and we'll create a lifestyle for us. So we managed to get a another bar up and running, which was quite cool. We were quite happy about that. We did that for a few years as well. Can you describe the decor and sings upstairs? I think it's a very it's. It's more of a long New York finger bar with a cedar, red, wood stained walls, Um, and beautiful crystal chandeliers. Uh, very similar to what was on the Titanic. Actually, it's a New York finger bar. It's very long. It's very skinny. Um, people we love having bar stools in front of the bar. It's one of the things that we quite often get, um, complimented on because a lot of bars you go to you can't sit at the bar and it's quite a focal point for entertaining people. Um, by them sitting at the bar, um, they like to see what's happening behind the bar as well. Uh, we've had guests say to us, You know, uh, watching you guys make cocktails is better than watching TV. Um, because it's live. Um, so, yeah, it's a lot of fun. Goes with it and What about downstairs? Downstairs was, um, a little bit, um I wouldn't really know what you call the downstairs flavour. Actually, Uh, when we took it over, it was it was quite Dungy. It was all dark. Chocolate brown, um, walls, roofs and everything was chocolate brown apart from the carpet, which was bright scarlet, red. And it had booths and long booze, which were very, very uncomfortable. And, um, as I said earlier on, when we when we started it up, we persevered with what we had, Um, until we got to a stage where we'd paid the business off, it was ours. And then we could start looking at, um, remodelling downstairs. So downstairs is basically just a conglomeration of old chrome seating, um, light grey walls and some nice, um, artistic wallpaper that looks sort of like, uh, it's great for the nightclub lights. When the lights are going, it bounces off. So it's like 3D. It's very smart, but it's very smart, casual, very dancey downstairs. Um, when we got the dance area going also upstairs, you have, um, a wonderful wall of photographs. Yeah. Yeah, That's, um I remember many, many years ago when I was a young man and I and it was my first trip to Australia. And I went to, um, the Prince Wales Hotel in Saint Kilda. And I remember walking up the stairs and they had AAA drag review there, Um, every Friday night in the main bar upstairs. So I went along to see this, And as I was walking up the stairs, I looked at all these photos on the wall and thought, You know, what a fabulous idea of, um, a way of preserving your history and your culture. So I basically stole the idea from Melbourne and bought it back here and through working in so many venues over the years, got to work with some truly fantastic famous people. And, of course, our local community, our local drag, um, artists and, uh um, So a lot of them feature on that wall. It's remembering a lot of them, sadly, now passed on. So it's remembering those people and creating a space where you can look back and share about the memories of that particular person. Yeah, so it's a It's a big part of our history and our culture up there. Um, so it's well worth keeping. And hopefully, um, in the end, it would probably all end up going to department. What hours does SNM run? That's been, um, dealt a blow with the covid thing. Normally, we would be doing six days a week. Um, but since business has dropped off, um, during the week, we've gone down to four days a week. So we're basically operating, um, uh, Wednesday to Saturday from 5 p. m. till 3 a. m. That's the the hours we do. Hopefully, if this all calms down a wee bit, we'll start reopening up again in the beginning of the week. Um, but right now, it's just, um it's not worth the effort to put it there. And it would cost you to open the doors and describe for me if you can. The the clientele clientele is very mixed. Um, and I think, you know, heading back to this conversation that I had with Michael Moore saying there will come a day when we won't need gay bars. Um, and I think personally, my own personal opinion is that, uh, way back in 1985 86 when we were campaigning for the homosexual law reform bill. Um I think one of the biggest arguments we had there was that we just want to be treated the same. We wanted to be treated as equal as everybody else. Um, I don't think we realised at the time what that really meant. We got homosexual law reform, Bill. Um, we got the Human Rights Amendment act. Um, and everybody's just treated the same as these days. So I think perhaps in some ways, it's got to the stage where well, gay people can drink anywhere. Um, uh, people's attitude have totally changed 100%. Um, So And it's that old story that if gay people can drink everywhere, so can straight people. And we usually find that we have a very mixed clientele, a lot of women because they like the security that, um, drinking in a gay venue, um affords them, um and also like minded in the in the married couples or or straight men. Um, that come here. Um, because they enjoy the company. They they like the place they're not closed off or shut down in the brain as far as, um, sexuality goes. So yeah, like minded people that don't have a problem and pre covid. Um, this had a very strong kind of international feel about it as well. Yeah, we we worked hard on that one. It was, um, a production company, Um, out of England that, um, approached us. They had they were auditioning quite a few years back. Now, um, seven or eight years ago, uh, they were, um, bought any the stage show over from London. And, of course, they bought all the main stars of which Sue Pollard was in there from, um And it was cheaper for the production company to, um, send over a representative and audition New Zealand Children and performers to play the orphans and and And the chap happened to be a gay guy, and he was sitting in the bar going. I really like the atmosphere in here. Would you boys want to do a bit of a deal with our country? Our our, um, our company, We go, what does that involve? And he said, Well, we bring all these international shows over here, and we bring all the cast and the crew, and, um, if you look after us and give us a a reasonable rate on our alcohol we'll send all our business your way. And, um, so they've done that, and we've had some major productions through here. Um, out of out of, um, Spain, South Africa and London, Um, predominantly, with all the major shows we've got to meet, Um, some absolutely fantastic famous people through it. Um, Lesley Garrett's right up there. Um, Diva, absolute diva. So of course, um, Ray M of home and away. Of course, he was in Priscilla, queen of the desert. Um, so we got to meet all these famous people that this production company was bringing, you know, Um, so, yes, it's had a bit of an international flavour. Um, and we're still, um, in contact. Um, with most of these people out of the out of the company. Indeed, in South Africa and London, Um, a lot of them. It also gave LGBT members of the of the company a base S and MS was the base. And the fact that it was a gay bar was great was more secure for them as well. I mean, they weren't able to bring their straight friends, um and so it's just melded into being a a fabulous place to be. I touched on very briefly. Uh, the community events that you've both been involved in and has seen quite a number of, uh, well, a lot of community events. What? What are those kind of standouts for you? I think the one that we enjoyed doing the most was the actual, um, uh, puppies in the park, Um, for for gay pride. I think that's one of the most outstanding ones. And and, of course, over the years, being involved with, um, devotion parades. Uh, I think it was way back in, uh, 95. I was the, um, organiser for the when we had the devotion party here. Um, I was the, um, organiser for the devotion parade. And I think that for me was a really big stand out, because it it, um, started down in, um Chaffer Park and round its way through, uh, Courtney place in Dixon Street and down into Victoria Street, Manor Street, Wool Street into Mercer Street, into the square. And I remember the TV companies running along with taking, you know, filming footage and all that, um and and people trying to stop me and ask me questions about the parade and how long it took to organise and I. I think we were turning into street, Um, when the parade was still coming up Dickson street. So it was a massive parade. Um, I think it was Wellington first day of having, um, gay dancing boys. You know, um, which was fantastic. So it was a massive parade and organising like dikes on bikes and and the marching boys And, um, and the floats, Uh, the big with Johnny, cos um, sitting in this big swan swanning through town, I think that's probably one of the highlights. That and the doggy parade for us, um, is probably two of the highlights that we've really enjoyed the most. So that 95 devotion parade Was that an evening parade? Or was it? No, it was daytime. Daytime? I think we left, um, Courtney Chaffer Park about, um, two o'clock in the afternoon. If I remember rightly. Yes, it was one or two in the afternoon. And what was the feeling? Like marching in such a parade? It was fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. It was, um, since then, we've actually when you're on the sidelines and organising it and make sure all the You know, all the marshals are getting the the parade through, and you're not holding up too much traffic. Um, that can be fun of it. But having actually been in the hero parade, um, Auckland total different kettle of fish going along road we we took, um, we had started up New Zealand's first gay and lesbian dragon boat team. And, um, we were racing, um, in Wellington and Lake and Henley Lake and Master. And through our contacts, we managed to get a, um, a dragon boat off one of the Auckland teams and put it in the actual hero parade. And, of course, we were all on our our like her with the rainbow flash across the front and going through the, uh, through the parade and people just trying to reach out and touch you and grab you is it's actually quite frightening. Yeah, I think that's the one and only time. I sort of like, um done a parade. Um, I don't think I'd be involved in another Not now. Thinking of entertainment here at S MS. What kind of entertainment have you had over the years, we've had live singers in here. Um, we got a fabulous girl group which we normally get in here. Um oh, we've had the drag show. Um, we actually don't rely heavily on the drag performances. Um, like, on a week on a weekly basis, we actually prefer to do one offs. And, of course, we we firmly believe in supporting our local artists that have done good. So we all sort of sort of tend to head towards poly, who eventually left these shores and went to Melbourne and Felicity ci, who eventually did the same thing but went to Sydney. So it's when we have, like, special events like birthdays and things like that. Then we bring the girls back from Australia. Uh, well known, and they set a pace. So it's, uh that's our entertainment. Is is relying on old school drag. Yeah. We love it if we go backwards in time. Um, you were saying that the establishment prior to the was pound pound? Yeah. Tell me about pound. Where was that? Pound was situated in the, um, the Old Oaks complex down on Dixon Street. Um, bordering both sides where the Royal Oak Hotel used to stand. Um, and they built this glass edifice which was supposed to be resemblance to the Crystal Palace in London with a time period of of five years. It was a temporary building, um, and it And when it opened, it was fantastic. But over the years, it sort of slowly started to deteriorate, and businesses came and went, and, um, we went into the nightclub there, Um, and 2000 to 2006. Um, as I said, the building was a bit of a rundown building, and you could get eight or 900 people through in the nightclub on a night over a period of time. We used to have a 5 a. m. licence. So, uh, we'd open up at 4. 30 in the afternoon with a small bar next door, then transgressor into the nightclub. Um, that lasted six years. But at the end of the six years we were done, uh, we'd lost so much weight, so many hours, we were going to work with your sunglasses on, going home with your sunglasses on, and we decided after six years that, um, nightclub life was great. But time for a change. It was a fabulous, um, as I say, the building was a bit of an old rundown building, but the atmosphere was eclectic and it pumped down. Can you describe what the The decor was like? Decor. We We, um when we moved in there it it had been deserted on New Year's Eve in 2000. Um, and there was literally glasses, uh, six months later, still sitting on the bar where they'd left on the night and and was still there, There was mould growing all over the what was left in the glasses. There was no decent stock or anything like that left. Um, the building looked pretty run down on the inside. Um, we managed to secure a little bit of finance. So we knocked out a few walls and put in a raised area and had a big stage built and dressing room the back of the stage for, uh, the show girls to be able to come straight out of the dressing onto the stage. Um, it was a massive building. It had big, um, girders running through, um, the roof, Um, no air conditioning whatsoever in those days, apart from one big sliding window. Um, and I think one or two fans that were circling around, but all that was doing was stirring up the warm heat. Because you get so many people in there dancing. Um, and of course, so many people dancing the the, um, condensation that was just dropping off the roof. Um, so it was fabulous time in its time, but glad glad it was over in the long run. Um, new beginnings. And so what was the the the smaller bar located? Smaller bar was, um uh it was called, um, sovereign. And that was, uh, when you went into the into the venue, you walked up to the stairs and you'd go into the nightclub on the right, and there was a smaller bar on the left. So, uh, we join those two up, knocked a hole in the wall and join them up. So we just had a smaller bar, which was a sovereign bar, and we'd open that up in the earlier part of the afternoon that would go through till 10 o'clock at night. And then at 10 o'clock, we just open the doors and open the nightclub up, and everybody would stampede. And it's great. One thing with Wellington is that it seems to only be able to kind of accommodate, you know, one or two rainbow establishments at any one time because of the the the kind of population size Was there anything else, Um, in Wellington at that time around the early two thousands? Um, if I remember rightly there was. I mean, we, um we did pound from 2000 to 2006. Um, there was, uh, a straight night club across the road. I, um which a lot of people used to go to that one as well. Wasn't really known as a as a as a gay night club, but it was, um, gay friendly. Um, so there have been dots and places around Wellington. I think it comes down to, as you say, um, the population, um, Wellington doesn't have the population that Auckland has. Auckland can have seven or eight gay venues where Wellington, because of the population, could only have two. Um, immersed eventually disappeared and garden club opened up. Um, they ran for a wee while there by this stage, we were out of the game, um, of the nightclub. Um, doing our, um yeah, sabbaticals. Shall we say down at the lanes Bowling lounge. Can you describe, um, the the clientele for for, um, pound pound was was, um, like, full on gay night club drag shows every Friday and Saturday night. Um, we'd enlisted. Um, when we first opened up pound, we didn't even have any performing drag queens in Wellington at that stage. Um, so Scotty and I each weekend would fly up to Auckland and and, um, do a little sat around all the gay venues up there. Um, why we were processing pound and getting it to, um, a workable stage. Um, and we spotted, um, a fantastic, um, performer in Auckland called Paris and, uh spoke to her and said, We're opening up this new gay night club in Wellington. And we, uh, need some, uh, performers. Would you like to come down and be our head hostess, which she really accepted? Knowing that she had no performers here to come to, um, so it was building up through her own work, building up, um, a whole new group of drag performers. And that's how it all started. That's so interesting. Because, I mean now in Wellington, I mean, it is so known for its track performance. RuPaul's drag race. I think that's what's done. It, um, it's changed the whole face of drag, Uh, before it was very difficult for, um, girls, the performers to get and into corporate gigs. Um, nowadays, uh, corporate gigs are begging for them. And I think that that's RuPaul's drag race. This whole change, the whole perspective of what about what drag is. And there's a whole new artistry. Um, that is now about because of RuPaul's drag race. Even their makeup is is just tremendous. Absolutely outstanding. Um, uh. There's been a heavy, um, American influence, I think, in there. Um, so it's paid well for, um, New Zealand drag even with, um, our latest winner of a drag race. Um, New Zealand with ru Paul. How much would it cost to get into the pound? I don't think we ever cha charged all the time. I think it was free to get in. And then we used to charge on the coat check. If you want to do coats charge. I think it was a dollar per item we used to do. Um, Major, I think we'd had a $20 door. It could have even been a $10 door charge in those days. Um, if we had a major production show on, um because, of course, come back by that stage. And she was, um, rounding up a whole new group of girls. And so we did we do a major production show once a month. Those are the nights we charge because you probably have seven or eight drag queens on stage at once. And that door money helped pay those shows, you know? So, um, the rent was pretty pretty tough in those days as well. So as long as you could cover the rent and make a little bit on the side and and cover the entertainment, I think it was about $10. Was our max charge? Yeah, we've We've never charged at S and MS ever. Yeah. So these two venues have basically covered the last two decades. 20 years here in Wellington. How do you think the kind of crowds the people, the the rainbow community changed? When you see people coming in and out of the doors, it's changed dramatically. Um um I. I think a lot of the queer community really needs to look back. Not so much. Um, the older US older generation. But the new ones, Um, some people who don't even know who Georgina Baer is. Um, they don't really realise that prior to 1985 86 homosexual law reform, you could go to jail for having consensual sex. And we've changed all that. We've fought those battles, and we've got to where we are today. I think a lot of the younger ones really need to step back and have a look at their history. They tend to have this, uh, we own the world. We rule the world, you know, attitude. And I think they they they tend to be a little bit agist in some ways. Um uh, a little bit of respect for the older community, I think needs to be appreciated a lot more. The clientele is like, uh, change dramatically. You will always get people that will go back and going. Oh, my God. I heard about Pound. I wish I had been around in those days, and then you go back to the eighties. Um, they were well known. The music was fantastic. Um, disco was there. Donald was at her peak. Um, they were great times. And there used to be a lot more camaraderie in those days, I think because we were, um, illegal. Everybody used to watch after each other's backs. Nowadays, that seems to have gone. There's no camaraderie there whatsoever. Anybody would be willing to stab you in the back at the first chance they get. Um, so it has changed quite well. Quite, um, Dr. Dramatically, actually. Um, sometimes you feel that you we feel we've done our parades. We've done our, you know, we've done our time, and so you need to stand back and just let the young ones take it over. And if if they tend to screw things up a wee bit, it's gonna be a lesson learned. Um, that's our opinion. Do you see, uh, young ones coming up and taking, um, taking over businesses say, like, you know, nightclubs and stuff? No, not so much these days. Um, you have a look around town, and there's not many nightclubs left anymore. They're all dance bars, big nightclubs. Days are run and truly gone. Uh, I don't see a lot of younger people, um, putting their hand up to get into hospitality. Um, it's a tough game. Um, in general, kiwis don't want to work in hospitality. And I think that's what we've discovered with, um Covid is that all our employees were all foreigners that were over here on working holidays. And now that that pool has dried up, um, you just can't get staff anywhere. Um, uh, you just have to walk around town and have a look in different venues, and they go, we are hiring. We are hiring. Um, it's all over. There's a group called Wellington Bartender Exchange. And it's all the bars are, um, on it. And it's, uh, one way of you checking and just making sure if there's any loose units out there on the town, somebody will report it will come up on on on the app, and then you know who to look for. You know, if you see these people approaching, don't let them in. No trouble. Um, so it works really well with that way, Um, but all of these people on this group are also all looking for staff. There's just no hospitality staff available in New Zealand. So what's I mean, having run so many businesses over so many decades, What? Uh, what What's the basis of good bar staff? Ah, somebody who's got a really good memory, to be quite honest. Um, we've just taken on 22 new boys, um, to replace one we had, uh, um uh, a young gay boy came over from Australia three years ago and never worked a bar in his life, but walked in here and said, I want to work here. And I said, Oh, do you got any experience? None at all. And he he was with us for three years, and, um, he would be a prime example. You've got to have a quick wit friendly, approachable, and be able to talk to people. That's, I think, one of the best things. That's, um, that you can have, um, people come to see you, so entertain them. Um, and this is what, um, our previous bar bartender, um, had done We've replaced him with two people. Um, new to the industry. Never had any experience. Um, so it's been a tough battle trying to train them up, and especially when they start just before Christmas and New Year. And you're throwing them into a massive pool of, um, very popular cocktails with an expansive list. Um, how to make these drinks? You know, um, I think the labour school, um, needs to be appreciated a lot more in hospitality because it's damn hard worker. Just getting back to that covering the two decades. 20 years. Because in that time, we've also had massive kind of political change in terms of civil unions have passed, um, the prostitution reform. Um, we had marriage, equality, a whole range of things, and and there there have been so many events here at, um relating to those particular even. Oh, yes, totally. Yeah. I think one of the, um the biggest one was the ball, uh, quality ball. Um, when that was going through and we had it beaming on the big screen upstairs in the upstairs bar here at and Ms and the place was absolutely chock a block waiting for that vote to come through. And when it came through that it had passed, it was absolutely insane. We had, um, the TV TV one and TV three, um, ringing us up, and we need to come and interview you. This is a big step for LGBT community, you know, and uh, we go. Yeah, that's fine. Come on in. And, um, it was so busy. It was just an insane night. Um, um, the TV cameras could not get into the bar, and we had to force our way out through the crowds onto the street to do the filming footage for the news that night. Um, it was insane. It was absolutely insane. And I think another one of the biggest events we did have here when I was just, um, capturing this was, um uh, 2011, the Asia Pacific Out games. Um, phenomenal. The team that brought those games to New Zealand, um, did an outstanding job. Um, and we were doing seven days a week, and and I must say, taking, uh, a Friday night and a Saturday night take seven days a week. Um, it was hosting some of the most fabulous people I've ever met in my life sports people and still in contact with them today as well. Um, so that there's that's another one that's been outstanding. What's it like when this place just goes off? I mean, it must be the most amazing feeling it is when it's when It's when it's super busy, but you don't get time to really enjoy it. I mean, you enjoy yourself during the buzz of the night, but when it's closing time, you're well prepared for the door to close. You know, because, um, it's just the hype. It gets you going and it's just, you know, and and you you get to that. You're fast pacing, fast, pacing yourself. Um, by the end of the night and it's just you don't sit down for hours. Um, because you know the atmosphere is electric. But when the door closes and the last ones left and you get to sit down and say, Let's have a drink Um, that's really relaxing. But it's, um it's been It's been a fun ride. Absolute fun ride. So what was before pound full pound? We we had a, um a brief dabble with our first bar that we owned together, which was the dome, which is, uh, which is now the Welsh Dragon bar. Um um and we had that. That was in 99 2000, which he did the, uh, New Year's Eve millennium, Um, New Year's Eve party at the dome. Um, it was a tough one for us. Uh, we'd been working in a previous bar, and then we decided that it's about time that we were making a lot of money for other people, and it was about time we started doing it for ourselves. So we, um we had, uh the mayor at that stage was Mark Blum, and, uh, the dome before that had been a a variation of, um, restaurants. But originally, it was an old public toilet. And, um, there was a Greek Turkish kebab shop in there at the time that had closed down, and we saw that it was available for lease. So we thought, Oh, that could be make a great bar because it had a bit of a garden area out, out, out, out The end to it. Um, it was fantastic. And, uh, so we approached Mark, and, um, he didn't even realise it. But even even being an ex public to he's going Oh, do we own that? The council. I'm going. Yeah, you do. Um, so he managed and we the rent on that, um, was $500 a week, which was fantastic for So you had the northern dome, the southern dome. We built a bar in the middle piece. We refurbished all the, uh, the, um toilets. Uh, we spent a lot of time working in the dome, actually, um, six months we took, um, stripping it back. And it was quite being an old public toilet from many years ago. There were big, um, archways in there that were painted over. We scraped off 17 layers of paint, and you could still read all the graffiti that was underneath that men had left notes for each other and or phone numbers from all these years ago. Um, which was absolutely amazing. But we sounded all those down. The writing all went eventually, we retain them. They were beautiful Remo arches, and they're still there to this day. But, um, all the graffiti is gone. Um, which is a bit of a shame. Can you remember any of the graffiti you like? No, no, it was just, you know, being here at a certain certain time and, you know, um, usual stuff that you'd find written on toilet walls. I should imagine. Um but no, it's too long. I mean, it's 20 years ago, you know, because that was such a thing, wasn't it? Actually, you know, public toilets. A meeting ground. Well, it was cottages. It was the only place to go with homosexual. Was IEG or where did you go to meet like minded people of the same milk? Um, so years Cottaging was definitely, um uh, uh, big in those days. Um, I think those years, um when I'm not sure exactly what year it closed down. But I think one of the first restaurants in there was the Taj. Um, And they did that fabulous fresco, um, or Frisco artwork on the ceiling, which is all made up of New Zealand poli politicians. Um, which is fabulous. That's still there to this day as well. Um, when we got out of them, we we we actually only had the building for a year. Halfway through it, um, our finance dried up, and we needed to take on another business partner. Um, so we met up with a husband and wife and took them over and took them on as our business partner. Um, turned out to be the worst year of our life. Um, we ended up selling the business for a dollar for a transaction and got out of it. And that's when Palm was born. And, um, we had laid a new dance floor in the Southern Dome and under that Southern dome 20 years later is still a, um, a tube. Um, it's got condoms in it. It's got a marijuana cigarette in it. It's got, um, all the news clippings about these two gay boys that were refurbishing these old public toilets that had been restaurants into this new, um, bar. Um, it's a time capsule, and 20 years later, it's still there. Nobody knows exactly where it is except us. Um, but when that building eventually falls over or gets demolished, it'll be found. So a bit of history will, you know, unfold from that as well. And the pack of cards we used to sit every night. We had this, um, big group, a group of straight Boers, um, working for us. And they were really cool guys, Um and we'd we'd sit in the in the in the in the bar while we were making it. We, you know, turn off all the lights and pull the curtains over, and we'd sit there and and and drink beer and and play cards to the wee hours for these guys. So all those little memories that we had there, we put into the time capsule. And they are, um, in the in the time capsule, um, at the dome. Now the dome is the other end of Courtney place, Um, or middle of the road. That's the address. The middle of the middle of the road. Yeah, because there's no physical address for it. It's just the dome. It used to be the dome piano, middle of the road. Courtney Place. What kind of clientele did that have? Because it was quite a different part of town. It was, um it was very again very, very mixed. Um, we do smart little things like cheese planters. And and, um, uh, we used to cook in the They had a small kitchen in there. Um, but we worked very hard. We were managing the bar. We were doing it from opening time at, uh, 8 a. m. We used to open in the morning and we used to close at three o'clock in the morning and then go home, get two hours sleep, and go back. Um, and we'd be doing all the cooking and the cleaning. We were doing everything, Um, hence why we needed to get out of this business. And so just to confirm. So, um, the dome was the first one you own together, and then subsequently all these other business all together you've been, uh, Pound. We had another business partner, a straight guy who was a good friend of ours. He was our business partner there. So it was, um, myself and Scottie and Dave and his wife. Um, we did that for six years, and we closed that one down and got out of there. But this is our soul. S and M is our sole one. Together with no business partners. I think you learn a lesson. We did. Yeah. So what was before the dome before the dome, we can skip back to before the dome was Bojangles. Um And Bojangles came, um, as a result of, um, the previous gay bar, Caspers closing down overnight. And we didn't have a gay venue in Wellington. Um, I'd spent some time in the merchant navy and a friend of mine that owned um, two bars in Wellington. One was called Barneys and the other one was Bojangles, and he decided to open up. One side is Barneys. Um oh, it's got There's a bit of a history in this building alone because previous to Barneys and Bojangles Alfie's nightclub had been in there. OK, so this is the building on the corner of what, Dixon and Dixon. And upstairs upstairs? Yeah, Yeah, um is a Bojangles was turned into a jazz club, which never really worked. So when Caspers closed down, I approached my friend, who I used to be at sea with and said, Look, you've got two bars. One's going well, the other one's not going well. Why don't you give it to me? I'll turn into a gay bar. We can make some money, help you pay the rent. And we've all got, um, you know, roof over heads. So we did that. We did that for a couple of years. Um and then we decided that well, we were making the money and we weren't getting anything back from it. So that's when we left and opened the dome. OK, And so what? What was that? Pound was 2000 to 2006. The dome was 99 2000. So it'd have to be 97 to 99. Around that era, Caspers must have been up to about 96. And so you worked in Casper Worked as Caspers. Yeah, that was owned by full. Um, we went there when he first opened it himself and another gay boy, Dean Manning. We went there, and we were fronting the bar there. Um, great. And I think Casper was probably there for about five or six years as well. Um, I've never really been a good one for remembering dates. I just remember how long I spent in each basically, um, but yeah, they fun times we had there. Um, but the owner decided to, um, shift off to Australia. Um, and close it down overnight. It was a bit of a sad one, actually. I I'd been working in the in the in in Casper on the Sunday evening, and the owner was pretty staunch for was pretty staunch that we didn't close before 3 a. m. Even if it was dead. Quiet. He go. No, no, you gotta stay up until 3 a. m. stay up at 3 a. m. And this one particular night he said to me, Oh, look, I've left my keys at home. I'm expecting a phone call. It's pretty quiet. You shoot off, I'll look after the bar, and I'll lock up when I leave. So I left the bar about one o'clock in the morning. Um, and the next morning at nine. AMI, get a phone call from the office lady saying, Did you work last night and going? Yeah, Well, don't you leave on one o'clock? You know, the bar is gone, you know? What do you mean? The bar's gone? There's nothing here. Everything's gone. And I went No, no, I was there at one o'clock. She said, I'm telling you that I jumped straight into a taxi, came and walked into the bar, and it was empty. The kitchen, the ovens, the fridges, Um, all the liquor behind the bar, the glassware, all the poker machines, the pool table, the bats. It was just an empty shell. The only thing left on the walls were mirrors that had been glued to the wall and he couldn't get off. Um, and that was well, at that stage, there was no other gay bar in town. Um, so what do we do? And I thought Howard's got a bar. That's when was came about, went around and saw him, and we started up a gay bar around there. Now I'm just getting slightly confused because Bojangles and Caspers are in completely different locations, aren't they? Totally. So Bojangles and Alfie were in the same location on Cuba and yes, yeah, before was in there. It was a nightclub called Stardust, and that went belly up. And the Dorian Society was going in Willow Street village at that stage. Then Aie came to town through the, um Tony Kavi John, his boyfriend, Brett Shepherd, basically the out empire. They ran, um um, Out magazine. They had the Victoria Spa sauna in Auckland. They had Alfie's in Auckland. They opened up, um, Elvis Sauna in Wellington. Elvis nightclub in Wellington. Um, they had a stronghold on the gay community. That was that's went into, um, the building in Dixon Street where, um, Barneys and Bo jangles would eventually end up. Um was there again for five or six years. They closed down, went out. That's when Howard came in and took over and into the venues. And so a, um that was what, mid eighties mid eighties? Yeah, Yeah. They used to bring the bloomer shows down with Georgina Barbers in it then and they used to bring the entertainment down from Auckland from the Auckland show because, as I said, those days there weren't many drag queens around town. So they bought all the, um, girls down from Auckland on a on A on a regular basis. Um, while we rounded up New Queens in Wellington. So when did you first meet Georgina office Georgino, um, working at the Royal Oak Hotel. The old Royal Oak Hotel. Uh, on our flatmate was the D and the oaks coffee shop. I got a job through him, working there as a waiter and George buyer was working there as a night porter, and we all got to end up flatting together. So we've known each other since we were 17. 18, um, and worked together and flatted together. And that's when the street pill came in and and Carmen's Coffee lounge. And, um yeah, the oaks, the Old Oaks Hotel, the bistro bar, the tavern bar, both famous throughout the years, like every sailor in town to go to the bistro bar and the little bar next door to that was the tavern bar was the gay bar. So there's always been a bit of a gay venue around that area. For some particular reason, I don't know. It's always been in like where the building was or the one next door where pound was. Um, it's always been around The Dixon Street has always been quite a gay area. I'll come back to Royal Oak, um, shortly, but just to, um, talk a bit more about Bojangles. Can you describe what Bojangles what the kind of feel was like, What? It was a barren. Actually, it was a very barren um, building. Actually, it was just one big square and it had a stage, uh, a full length bar. When you walked up the stairs, you walked into the left. The bar ran the full length as you walked in the door from right to left. Then there was a splattering of tables around the dance floor, a stage on the left dance floor in the middle of you in front of the chairs. And then there was just booths over by the windows, which were all curtained off. Um, DJ booth was to the right up the top end. Um, it was, um, and toilets were other side of the bar. It was a very nondescript building, actually. And it was all, um, pink and blue walls. I think that was the fad colour at the time because most of the bars around town were painted pink and blue. Yeah, but it was a bit of a nondescript building, but it served a purpose for what we needed at the time and not having a venue. Uh, I don't think people are really worried about the decor. They just wanted a space and a place, you know? So it was good, right? And what kind of entertainment that was? Just drag entertainment. Yeah. Um, in fact, Polly fella did one of her first shows for me there. And, um, I said to her that night, I'm actually not paying you for that show because it was shit. And you spent half your time facing the back wall because you didn't know the words. Um, she went away. She came back when we opened po and said, I've got my shit together. Do you want to give me another shot? I went too, right? Let's do it. And, um, she ended up becoming our head hostess girl and and doing little production shows. She's come a long way and and we still laugh about this, you know, I said, Man that day, I wouldn't fucking pay you. You know, um, we still joke about it. Um um, but we're really good friends. Very, very good friends. And it's those ones that I look back to like Felicity and and somebody who's and and especially Polly, who's gauged her life and committed herself to it. And it's like most things Wellington, because the population becomes too small. So they have to head off overseas, um, to make a bigger and better name for themselves. And that's what they've all done. You've mentioned a couple of times about, um giving people a chance, whether it's, uh, you know, the bar staff or poly. Why do you do that? I think it's it's really important that everybody has a chance at at doing something. Um, for example, these two new boys that we've just taken on, they know nothing. We're finding it hard to get really, really hard to get stuff we tend to think that it's better to train somebody out right from the word go. So you're giving them a chance as well, learning they're learning something new as well. Um, I think we all came from humble beginnings. And if we hadn't been given that chance many years ago, we probably wouldn't be where we are today. And I think it's that belief that you have of of, um, give it a go. What have you got to lose? Um, and everybody deserves a second chance. Um, everybody deserves a first chance. Um, but it's just being there and making sure that people have got somewhere to go somewhere to to to to call, comfortable in a home and the ability to expand their horizons. I suppose it's just Yeah, Everybody deserves a go. Everybody deserves a go. You know, you we've had run ins with people, but like, you know, um, you always give them that you the benefit of the doubt. You give them a second chance, and, um, haven't been stung too many times by that. Yeah, I just think it's really good that you do those sort of things, you know, makes life a lot easier and did somebody give you a chance earlier on? Um, I probably, uh Well, when I first left home and came to Wellington, Um, I've done a few things that I, you know, not being too proud of. I worked the street, you know, worked at a Carmen's coffee lounge. Um, Georgina and I begin to drag quite recently, you know, frequently rather, and head off down to the nightclub or down to the Carmen's coffee lounge. Um, when I got to the stage in my life that I'd I liked performing shows, but I didn't want to be a drag queen. Um, so I'd still do shows at Pound. But as soon as the shows were over, I'd go out the back and rip off the makeup because you can get back to being a boy. That was my enjoyment was just doing the stage shows. Um, I, I think when I previous years, when I first decided I didn't want to be a drag queen, I wasn't a drag queen. I was a gay boy. Um, I went away to sea, and, um, it wasn't very easy to get to get away to see in those days. Um, but somebody afforded me the opportunity to be able to do that. And when I look back, I think it's probably one of the, uh, one of the best jobs I've ever had in the world. It was a learning curve for me. I learned a lot. Um, I probably worked with some of the most staunchest heterosexual men in the world being seamen. Um, even at the point of locking your cabin door at night. Um um, But I learned a lot. And all of those men are still, um, good mates of mine today. Um, but yeah, if I hadn't had the opportunity given to me to go away to see, I wouldn't have the wealth of knowledge that I've got now about the hospitality industry. Caspers, where was that street? Um, it used to be a great restaurant up the end of Edward Street called the Mexican Cantina. And there was AAA. Bar had opened up, um, beneath an office tower. It didn't last very long. And, um, I was working in the bamboo bar at that stage. Second time around, Um, and yeah, I was looking for a change. Been back to the the bamboo bar um, I worked there for about a year or so. Then we revamped it, closed it down, changed all the decor and haunting back to the old bistro and not the bistro. The hotel downstairs was the bistro bar, and the tavern bar upstairs was, um the more sedate lounge, uh, was a cocktail bar called the Toledo Bar. And that's where all the, um, if you want to drink a pint of beer, you go to the tavern bar. But if you wanted to have a little social etiquette and drink for the rich puffs upstairs, you'd go upstairs to the Toledo Bar. So back in the bamboo bar, it had worked its time as the decor it had, so we decided to close it down and revamp it and reopen it up again. Um, as the Toledo Bar and namesake of the old site, Um, that went for a few years until Caspers came along. And then I left there. Another gay chap took over managing the Toledo bar, and I shot off to Caspers and describe Caspers for me. Casper was great. It was, um, 33 levels, split levels. Um, on the top level, you'd walk in the front door. Hang. All right. It was a little bit landing sort of area. Then you went up three or four stairs and to a top deck. And, uh, that was the, um, the pool table area. So you had a pool table area there? Um, come back down the stairs again. There's a little landing full of tables and chairs and things. Then the bar was in the middle section, um, down through a set of double set doors was the dance floor DJ booth, and eventually would also become the Poki room. Um, terracotta walls, great place, great fun. Lots of good times. Very again. Mixed clientele. Um, I think straight people just like going to gay gay venues because they create a an atmosphere and also one of security for women. Um, so I think it's just one of the things we always inherit. Gay venues are going to be known as safe places. So they attract certain clientele. And was the Dr performance there as well? Yeah. Yeah. We used to do drag there. Gosh. Yeah. And we used to get a few of the dikes up doing numbers and things like that. Um we we'd create a little stage. It wasn't there permanently. We'd sort of pull one up out of beer crates and whacko and top decking on it and then staple some pretty paper around the edge to give us a bit of a stage. Yeah, we had a lot of fun there. There was dragged there. Then in those days, Yeah. And were you saying that the Dorian Club was also operating at the same time when Alfie first came to town? Um, it was It was was the nail in the coffin for the Dorian Society. I joined the Dorian Society when it was down in Lampton. Um, and in those days, um, you had to sign on to be a member. Every member was given a key to the bottom door. Um, strict instructions that you never let anybody else in. Um, uh, you always only let yourself and, uh, sort of you'd open the door. Then you climb three flights of stairs, get to the top, ring a bell door there with the little the little curtain would pop back. Oh, yes. You remember and say I'd let you in. Um, in those days, it was strictly a gay man. Only, um, over the years, it got raided a couple of times by the cops. Um, basically, because it didn't have a liquor licence. Um, eventually, they, um, moved out of Lambton Quay and moved to the Wall Street village. Uh, and that's when things started to change a wee bit there. Um, women were allowed to come in. Um, you could bring a guest, but you had to sign them in, and you had to vouch for them. And I think in those days, they were charging, uh, $4 to get in and $8 for a guest to get in. Um, all the alcohol was free again because it didn't have a liquor licence. Um, but they weren't. They were basically giving the alcohol away. Just charging an entry fee. Um, which was quite legal understanding, I believe for those days, Um, but then came to town, um, as Wellington's first really licenced gay nightclub. And that was the end of the road for the Dorian. Um, Elvis basically came and took over. Everybody fled around there. They could go to a bar that was licenced and didn't have to worry about the police or anything like that. So the Dorian Society eventually closed its doors. And that's such a huge shift going from, um, the Dorian Society, which was behind closed doors. Well, literally a couple of closed doors to to a bar that was out there in the public and open. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I mean, they made such a AAA fantastic reputation in Auckland. Um, they had nothing to lose. They were, um, uh, often referred to as the out empire. Um, because they had their finger in the pie. Um, these men were very instrumental in pushing through homosexual law reform as well through their Out magazine, all their publications, Um, their saunas. Alfie's nightclub. So they built up a fair reputation. Um, and so the next best step step for them was to move to Wellington and corner the market. And they did it. They did it very well. So this is right in the middle or around homosexual law reform in the so, I mean, God, Pink Dragon, I think was still going in those days. So we're talking that, you know, things were potentially still illegal for what made Brett, Tony Kavi and Brett Shepherd. What made them. Um, I think it was just the determination that they took bills to court. If I remember rightly, uh, about Norman Jones and Jeff Bray. Book, um, the fight they had with those. And I think Wellington, um, would have been Bill Logan. Auckland was was Brett Shepherd, Tony Kavi, and John, his partner. Um, but through their expense to Wellington, they they could get more workings happening there. Um, Logan would have been the with Fran Wild. The trail blaze of homosexual law reform down here, Um, and going on, we used to go to those marches at a Knox church in, and the hatred was was venomous, absolutely venomous. Um, but yeah, eventually left town, and Wellington was left on its own again. Caspers had had opened up and bamboo Bar had gone to Toledo. And yeah, it's been it's been a bit of a fun ride and worked in most most gay venues around Wellington. Actually, the Dorian Society did. Did you call it the Dorian Club or society? It originally started off. I remember right as the Dorian Society. It was originally the Dorian Society, but we just called it Dorian Club was where we used to go on a Friday and Saturday night. Do you know, um, where abouts in was? It's got to be somewhere around about it was opposite, um, somewhere around D IC. But on the opposite side of the road and I, I I'm sure, um, it's there was old houses there. Three story old houses there. Um, it's got to be somewhere around. Little feather we have is now somewhere in that opposite D IC, but not quite down as far as CODIS and stains on the other side of the road. And can you describe, like, who was a member? That was all gay men. I mean I mean, um, we were talking about the Cottages earlier on the town hall beat famous beat in Wellington. Um, most guys would go to the Dorian Society that would close up at one o'clock in the morning. So if they didn't meet anybody there, then they off down to the beat down at the library. Um, but so it was really members. You'd go from the bar to the Dorian Club, um, and and dance away there till one o'clock in the morning. So it was all just people gay guys in the community that got members it started off with, Um uh uh, Fergus Dick, I do believe case coo, um Cooper. Jack Cooper. I think originally the Dorian Society, from what I remember started from a group of elderly gay men that wanted a safe place for people such as themselves. And they used to have regular meetings on a Friday night and the downstairs bar at the old Abel Tasman Hotel. That's where it originally started from, if I recall. And then they started up the Dorian Society, which was in a smaller venue, some around the Tasman, in an old building. But then they got the premises in Lambton Quay and it moved down there. And that was up three flights of stairs just again. Just a big spare room. Old, um, for tables and old chairs and a dance floor. Um, it was humble beginnings for for the queer community. But it was ours, and it was a safe place to go to. What was it like for you? Um I mean, I certainly remember my first time being in a either in a club full of gay people or an audience full of gay people. What was it like for you? Going to somewhere like the dory and then just being surrounded by by queer people? I don't know. I think in those days it was It was like, You know, um, we were drinking in the bar, and we were all underage. You you'd see the cops coming. You'd raise that one, do at three different entrances. You know, I say cops are coming out. We go go and hide in the toilets. And they caught on to that. Um, but But you you you know, it was just you. You were drinking in a in a what was literally a public bar, but was frequented by transsexuals and and gay men and the odd dyke, um, lesbian, you know. So we were already drinking that environment of of, of devious people of the same because probably referred to in those days. Um, then we'd leave. Oh, come on. It's It's 10 o'clock. The club will be starting to pick up now. So you'd all leave the bar at 10 o'clock and head off to the door side to say we was no different from drinking in a bar. Really? I think when Alfie came to town. We've been to a and been to other staircase in forth street and big nightclubs like that. Um, but to have our own one in Wellington was, um it was a good breakthrough. Fabulous breakthrough. Never really had the the, um the fear of of not drinking with people of my own or always just got on with people and whatever environment there is, you know. So you've mentioned, uh, the royal oak. And I'm just wondering, can you tell me about that? Because it seems to me that, um, that was a central place in Wellington for lots of people to come. Was was look, the bistro bar, um, I think they were the the public bar on the main street side. At one stage had the longest wooden bar in the Southern Hemisphere. On the right hand side on the Dixon Street side was the best story bar, um, entrance at either end of the building. Um, big row of red telephone boxes out the front. Um, the bistro was synonymous with Japanese seamen and and and and home boats and all the seamen from overseas. And it was one of those places that every ship coming to New Zealand. If you're in Wellington, the bistro bar is the place. You go, um, you could get whatever you wanted there. I mean, you could order a, you know, um, a leather jacket at two o'clock in the afternoon and be wearing it by six. you know. Yeah, sure. What colour do you want? What size you want? It was it was one of those places, Um, and the scraps, you know, the flying jugs and all that. It was, you know, it was a phenomenal all the all the trains went there, and, um, it was full of Korean fishermen and Japanese seamen, and it was like, um, paying top dollar for jigger jig. You know, um, so that's where all the train went to was the bistro bar? Um, absolutely famous behind the district. If you walked in the the centre entrance, Um, for the the hotel. If you turn right, you'd go into the bistro bar, you could walk through, and just behind the bistro bar was, um, a little wee bar. It was called the club bar, if I remember rightly. And that was famous for the Dutch. The manager at that time, Hay was Dutch, so he'd started up a little Dutch club where the Dutch immigrants would go into the club, though, and you'd walk in right opposite where the club bar was. You'd hang a left sharp U turn, and you'd be in the tavern bar, which was where all the young gay boys would go and, you know, and we would drink out. You know, I think God, this cheap half pint of lager or something, just But it was honest and a lot of the older queens, Um uh, people that used to work for farmers, um, one of the older boys there, and and old metre. You know, old Bill, the metre reader. And he would hold court. He'd at the same table in the tavern bar, and and he was an old queen, and all us young pretty princesses would hang around Bill. He'd look after us, you know? So we felt safe and secure. They were characters. Um uh, it was just the most. There was never any trouble in there. Um, if it was in anywhere, it was gonna be in the bistro, he'd walk through there and duck here comes another jug. But the tavern bar wasn't like that. It was just people of the same. It was comfortable. Little space. Um, probably no bigger than where we are now to down where the bar is. Um, yeah. It was a very small bar, but again had three entrances, so you can get in and out if you saw the police come in. Um, we used to look after each other, like I said in the old days. And I see that sort of thing happening these days. What? What would people drink? What kind of drinks? All in those. Oh, God. Look, you're talking about back in those days, the gin and tonic, double gin and tonic was $2. 50. But of course, we're all, you know, bloody on the bones of our ass and work in cafes and things like that. Um, so it was a lager, you know? And you knew you learned how to make a lager last a long time. You know, um, nobody was rich in those days. 10 shillings was a lot of money. Um, it was great. It was good timing. Um, but it was just Yeah. Drink cheap spirits. or, you know, steers were were two bucks each or something in those days. It was really cheap drinking. When you look at today's standards Yeah, And you mentioned earlier about the police, and I'm wondering, how did the police, Um I mean, did the police raid things like, um, the oh every Friday and Saturday night every Friday and Saturday night, you'd be there, but And it was just like, um, if you saw the cops, But somebody, Come on, the cops are outside. Bang, bang your little scarper because you could scarper out of the tavern, bar down the little corridor into reception and come out the front doors of the hotel. So there's, like, all these little different alleyways from the tavern bar to get in and out of, um, you could skip through the Dutch, the Dutch club bar. There's another alleyway which lead out to an alleyway down the back of the public bar so you could get out on the main street side. There was just little rabbit warrens everywhere, so you could scarper from the police any time you like. It's all you had to know was that they were coming and you know, Um, they used to write now and again, they'd catch you, but I we never got taken to court or anything like that. They just take our number us on, you know, our name and us on the and get out of here. And I don't want to catch you in here again. Sort of thing. You know, um, of course, you go back next Friday as you did. You know, suckers for punishment. Yeah. Do you think it was, um, from from your perspective, was there any kind of, like, police persecution of of kind of queer communities? Um, yeah, totally. Totally. Um, even back for the working girls on the street. I think it was tough. In the old days, we never really got harassed. I never got harassed. Um, Always found them quite diplomatic. They take your name, get out of here. I don't want to catch you here again. Sort of thing. Um, I have heard stories of people being, um, dealt to by the police, but in saying that because we were in today's society and standing, um, times have changed. We get a lot of cops drinking in the bar. We get lots of cooler cops coming next door for coffee. Uh, we've got a friend of ours who's the head of the police dive squad. And he was finding out some information for us one day and he walked into the bar. He's the only policeman ever to have walked in here in 14 years, and everybody was in panic mode. What a copy. What the cops here for? That's all right. It's only Jeff. Don't worry about Jeff. They leave you alone. And I think it's just people's attitudes have changed. There's so many, um, lesbian police officers. Now there's gay cops there. I know a couple of gay cops. Um, most of them are great. Great attitude. And you know, spade spade, let's move on. I think the police burned a few bridges in the old days, and I think we need to learn to move on from that. Um, we've all learned from the past, and I think the police have as well um, move on. Society has changed, you know, burn that bridge, build a new one. So where was the first hospitality or what was the first hospitality job you had? Where? First hospitality job. Yeah, It goes way back. Um, I was working for the coachman, Um um, up on the terrace as a waiter during during lunch time and dinner service. Um, and then I got out of there, and I'd, uh, done my time in the in the in the, um, merchant Navy as well came ashore. I, um, ended up working for my partner at the time, Um, who was managing Cobb and in the Hotel Saint George. Um, And then I started working there, and I was working in the Cobb bar, and then I left there and I went to work for the Western Park on road. And, um, I was doing lunches upstairs in the in the conservatory bar. A couple of gay boys working up there doing the, um, lunch and dinner service and the cocktail bar upstairs in the conservatory so I'd help them do the lunch, the lunch time service. Then I'd go downstairs and open up the bar downstairs, which was called the Gillespie Bar. And, um, I was in control of that. It was my bar and had the place pumping, pumping, pumping. It was great. Um, and the boss used to leave me alone. I don't know what you're doing, but you're making money. So they'd leave me alone. And then I got hint Hunted, um, from a very good friend of mine who rang me up and said, Oh, are you looking at changing your job anytime soon? And I wonder why is that? She said, we we we've, um, looking for a new manager for the bamboo bar. And it's a little gay bar, and we just think you'd be perfect for it. Oh, yes, I went down and, um, did the interview and started, um, the next week, bang. And that was where my forte really came in working for the LGBT community. I mean, I met people in different variations and roles and bars and restaurants that I worked in. But my first full time job working for the gay community was in the bamboo bar, and I still think it was back in those days. The bamboo bar was all done out, and, um, very Somerset mourn sort of furniture. It had all that bamboo arched seating and, um, big scoot. Um, Julie type curtains. The folder like like you see in the picture theatre. They pulled his friend they all raise up. They were scooped right across the ceiling, and they were set up in all this bamboo furniture. And, um, James Todd, an interior designer and a gay guy. He refurbished them all, And it was his bamboo furniture with, um, very bright orange and red poppies all over it. It was It was really out there for its time, really out there for its time. Um, and it was a great place. I still think the bamboo bar going back. I think you never forget one of your first ones. So it's probably for me. Um, I still say it's probably one of the best gay bars than Wellington, but it's it's timing. I suppose people say no, we love bound, and we love this one. And we love that one. You know, Um, but I think it's just where you have the most good memories from. That would be the bamboo. And so you were working at the bamboo. Yeah, that's, uh, God's eighties seventies eighties, because I'd done the bamboo for number of years, and then I left there. Some friends of ours had taken over the Old Dominion Tavern and Tory Street, which is now more wars owned by Graham Moore. Graham Moore had bought the Dominion Tavern. He had future plans for that site. Um, which is obvious today. Um, but in the meantime, he ran the Dominion Tavern as a pub, but had a great sportsman's bar upstairs. He got some friends of ours and a husband and wife team to, um, come and manage it for him. And? And, um, so they didn't They revamped. Um, a small bar there, um, called the the the cafe bar, and she rang me up and said, What are you doing up there? And I'm going home. She said, Do you need to change? I want you to do it. But I've been here a while now. So we got this. We got this, um, cafe and bar. Um, she said, but I want to turn into a bit of a gay bar because she got I had a bit of a following. So wherever I was going to people to follow. So I left the bamboo, went down there, worked for a couple of years there, took all the crowd with me, and then I sort of got to the stage. Well, You know, I've been here two years now, and I'm still on the same wage. And I bought the crowd here, and I think it's about time you looked after me a bit better. So I approached, you know, a little bit of a upping the ante we really can't afford at the moment. I don't know. We got six weeks to think about it, so I gave them six weeks and they couldn't up the ante. So I resigned. I'd only been at home two days, and at that stage, the old old Roy hotel had gone. They built the new edifice, um, bars and that had come and gone in there. Um, the bamboo bar closed down after I left, and I went to work for the DOMING. And I was there for a couple of years. Then I got called up by a gentleman by the name of Graham Hunt, who was probably the best boss I've ever had in my life. And he rang me up and he said, um, hi. It's Graham hunting, you know, he said, I understand. Um, you used to work at the bamboo, and I went, Yes, I did. And he said. And I understand you've just left the job you've got and I went, yes, I have. And he said, Well, I've just bought the pub he said, And the bamboo bar closed after you left. Um, I want to reopen it. Listen, I I'd like you to come back and work for me. I said to my look, um, I really like going forward, not backwards. And he went, Come and have a chat with me He said it costs nothing to talk. And I went, Oh yeah, fair enough. So I've been out of this job two days, made an appointment, went over and saw him and sat down, and he said, Look, when you left, it closed down. It's been closed ever since. I want to reopen it. I want you to go back in there because when you were there, it was making money. I want you to take it over and I went no. And he said, Well, I'll tell you what In those days, it was a lot of money. He said, All I need you to do in that bar is $3000 a week. And, he said, and anything else after that I'll give you 17% of the profit. And are you all right, then? So I walked in out of there, walked into the bar next door, started cleaning it all up, gave me three or four days to tie it all up. We were ready to roll open the doors and bang. It was back. Um, it was fantastic. It was great. I can honestly say this guy was true to his word. Graham Hunt. And I've told him to his face and the best boss I've had. Well, the boss that's honestly told the truth, I would probably be at that stage one of the best paid barmen in Wellington. Um, just for managing this small bar. Um, I was walking walking out of there with well, over a grand a week and and payments, um, my back pocket was burning holes, baby. It was the best job I ever had. It was, like, paid Well, um, so, yeah, that's my history. So the was the bamboo bar after Alfie. So Alfie was the first kind of gay bar, and then bamboo was that there had been a, um a small run of gay friendly venues, opening up around Wellington at that stage. Also, um, and street at the, um, at the new Barrett's Hotel and Willow Street upstairs. There. Um, Marcus Darley took that over, um, and he was managing it and he opened up, um, a little bar out the back called the bottoms up bar. Um, and that was kind of an up market and trendy, And it was all like going through that phase of chrome and silver and red and black. And that was, um, the the bottom up. Bottoms up. Um, bottoms up down the back there. There was also another bottoms up bar down at the old railway tavern. I don't know if you remember that one. That was that was upstairs. That's called the bottoms Up. Bottoms up as well. Um, so there's been a few venues. I think people in those days look towards the pink dollar. Gay boys, you know, double, um no Children sort of thing. So they were willing to open up to get the gay community in there because they knew gay community was going to spend dollars. Um, So there's been a few over the years here and just to confirm so in the bamboo was in upper. It was in, um, in the oaks complex, up the stairs on the left hand side, The manor street entrance. So you'd walk, um, down Manor Street? Um, walk in the main doors up a flight of stairs. You'd go right to the straight bar, which is the can't remember the name of that one now, but you turn left to the bamboo bar. Um, but everybody knew it was gay. Bar. So what was it in relation to pound opposite side of the building? Palm was on the Dickson street side and what used to be sovereign impound used when it first opened, the new complex was the oaks braces, and the oaks tavern was on the opposite side. So you had, um, the big main bar on the manna street side, the bamboo bar. And then there was a little we, um, link way that would take you across to the other side to the main street side. But that would take you into it was part of the the the Oaks brassy. It was the pavilion bar when it first opened up. That was part of the oaks complex. And then when the pavilion bar closed down. No, it wasn't. Pavilion Bar was the big straight bar. Bamboo bar was at the back. It was Jumbo's restaurant was cross. It was also part of the the the pub deal that closed down eventually. That's when the oaks brassy, went in there after the oaks Bracey It was soul bar Soul bar to la Luna, la Luna to pound all on that. So it's always always been a hospitality venue in in the Oaks complex. And it sounds like, actually, um, hospitality. Uh, establishments don't necessarily last that long, but you guys have actually lasted a huge amount of time. I think we'd probably be one of the longest gay bars in Wellington, this current one at the present time, 14 years. Just about to start our 15th. Um, I think that just comes down to, um our attitude, I suppose. Um, we know a lot of people. Um uh, our wedding was high profile, so that sort of gave us a bit of background. Um, it's amazing who we We find out even now, We I'm, um I'm working on something for, um, a family member about their, um, gay cousin who who, um, unfortunately died of an HIV AIDS related illness in 92. Um, and of course, this particular chap was from a, um, very strict Roman Catholic Irish family. Um, used to write a column for um Out magazine called capital Comment, Um, and couldn't really be out as much as he wanted to, because the father was so religious, very catholic, and he himself was going to be a priest at one stage himself. Um, and this? Yeah, this person that I'm working with, the family members I'm working with has just moved back from Auckland right now. And he's asking, So do you know so and so going? Well, the name rings a bell, and he showed me a photograph, and I guess I do know this person. And he said, Well, I I've been, um, incarcerated with taking over all of his stuff, and he said I want to bring him a little bit more out open into the family, um, as he should have been. Um, So we're just trying to work on finding people that will still remember this guy. Um, yeah, but he's going like, you know, uh, God, you know, I've been following you two for years. You know, you you're quite high profile and you've done so much and you've done this and done that. So I think that's probably why we have such a long activity. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1970s ; 1980s ; 1990s ; 2000s ; 2010s ; Abel Tasman Hotel ; Africa ; Alfies 1 ; Alfies 2 ; Annie (musical) ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011) ; Auckland ; Australia ; Austria ; Bamboo Bar ; Barrett's Hotel ; Bill Logan ; Bistro bar ; Bloomers Review (Alfies) ; Bojangles ; Brett Sheppard ; COVID-19 (coronavirus) ; COVID-19 Omicron variant ; COVID-19 lockdown ; COVID-19 vaccine pass ; Capital magazine ; Carmen Rupe ; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge ; Casper's Bar and Cafe ; Cees Kooge ; Christmas ; Civic Square / Te Ngākau ; Club bar (Royal Oak Hotel) ; Coming Up ; Cuba ; Cuba Street ; Devotion (Wellington) ; Devotion Festival (Wellington) ; Devotion parade ; Dixon Street ; Dominion Hotel ; Dorian Society ; Dorian Society (former site) ; Drag Queen ; Dykes on Bikes ; Events ; Felicity Frockaccino ; Fergus Dick ; Fran Wilde ; Geoff Braybrooke ; Georgina Beyer ; God ; Graeme Hunt ; HIV / AIDS ; Hero (Auckland) ; Hole in the Wall ; Homosexual Law Reform ; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986) ; Hotel St George ; Human Rights Act (1993) ; Imerst ; Israel ; Japan ; Japanese seaman ; Job ; Johnny Croskery ; Knox Church Hall ; Korean seaman ; LGBT ; Lesley Garrett ; London ; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan ; Mark Blumskey ; Marriage Amendment Act (2012) ; Marriage Equality ; Melbourne ; Mexican Cantina ; Michael Moore ; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa ; Norman Jones ; OUT! empire ; Oaks Brasserie ; Oaks Coffee Shop ; Oaks Complex ; Oaks Tavern ; Pacific ; Paris ; Pavilion bar ; People ; Phil Smees ; Pink Triangle (magazine) ; Polly Filla ; Pound nightclub ; Public toilet (Taj Mahal) ; Railway Tavern ; Ray Meagher ; Rion McKenzie ; Royal Oak Hotel ; RuPaul's Drag Race (tv) ; Scotland ; Scott Kennedy ; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar ; South Africa ; Sovereign bar ; Space ; Spain ; Stuff ; Su Pollard ; Sydney ; TV3 ; TVNZ (Television New Zealand) ; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel) ; The Dome ; The Edge ; The Garden Club ; The Prince Hotel (St Kilda, Melbourne) ; The Terrace Coachman ; Titanic ; Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel) ; Tony Katavich ; Victoria / Harris Street public toilet ; Victoria Spa sauna ; Victoria Street ; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain ; W. Somerset Maugham ; Wales ; Wellington ; alcohol ; alcohol laws ; alcohol license ; arrest ; art history ; art-a-rama ; attitude ; audience ; barman ; bars ; beats ; belief ; birthday ; boat ; bottom ; boxes ; bridges ; building ; bus ; cafe ; cannabis ; change ; cheese ; children ; chlamydia ; chocolate ; church ; civil unions ; clubs ; coffee ; coffin ; colour ; coming out ; community ; condoms ; consensual sex ; conversation ; cooking ; cottaging ; council ; culture ; dance ; dancing ; data ; difference ; disco ; dj ; dog ; drag ; dragon boat ; dyke ; entertainment ; environment ; equality ; face ; family ; fear ; filming ; flatting ; flying ; friends ; fun ; future ; gaming ; gay ; graffiti ; grave ; heterosexual ; history ; hit ; holidays ; homosexual ; hospitality ; hotel ; human rights ; individual ; insurance ; jazz ; jig-a-jig ; knowledge ; law ; leather ; lesbian ; library ; lifestyle ; liquor license ; love ; makeup ; marching boys ; marriage ; mayor ; media ; meetings ; merchant seaman ; music ; navy ; news ; night porter ; nightclub ; omnisexual ; opportunity ; organising ; other ; over the rainbow ; parade ; passion ; passport ; performance ; persecution ; piano ; pink dollar ; police ; poof ; pool ; power ; prayer ; prince ; profile ; public bar ; public toilet ; punishment ; queen ; queer ; race ; rainbow ; rally ; rent ; respect ; review ; running ; sad ; sailor ; saunas ; school ; sea ; security ; sex ; sex work ; sexuality ; social ; social distancing ; soul ; stole ; straight ; strength ; struggle ; surgery ; the other side ; time ; top ; touch ; tough ; traffic light ; truth ; understanding ; unions ; venues ; volunteer ; vote ; walking ; women ; work ; writing. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/malcolm_vaughan_profile.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089927. Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan also features audibly in the following recordings: "Carmen Rupe memorial, Wellington", "Johnny Croskery tribute", "Rainbow Pride Community Honours (2015) - Part 2", "Open mic sessions - Queer History in the Making", "Part 2 - Opening ceremony at Parliament - Wellington Pride Festival 2016", "Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation - interviews", "Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation - opening night", "Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation - storytelling", "Unveiling of the memorial seats for Chrissy Witoko and Carmen Rupe", "Malcolm Vaughan profile part 2", "Remembering Georgina Beyer", "The Life and Times of Georgina Beyer" and "Georgina Beyer taonga pōwhiri". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.