The title of this recording is "Karen Ritchie profile". It is described as: Karen Ritchie talks about growing up and the Cartier Trust. It was recorded in Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 30th January 2011. Karen Ritchie is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 34 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Karen talks about growing up and the Cartier Trust. The content in the recording covers the 1980s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: This summary provides an overview of an audio recording from January 30, 2011, featuring Karen Ritchie, who speaks about their experience in the sex industry during the 1980s, their involvement with the HIV/AIDS crisis, and the establishment of the Cartier Trust. The interview, conducted in Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand by Gareth Watkins, lasts for 34 minutes and focuses on the 1980s. In the recording, Ritchie reflects on working in the sex industry when condoms were not commonly used. With the emergence of HIV/AIDS in the 1980s came significant changes, heightened fears, and an increased use of condoms. Ritchie discusses how friends within the gay, lesbian, and transgender community faced the unknown threats of the virus, with many contracting HIV/AIDS and facing stigmatization, isolation, and sometimes dying alone. Ritchie shares how the acceptance of their lifestyle by the LGBTQ+ community stood in stark contrast to the judgment from the heterosexual community, resulting in lifelong friendships and an understanding of the importance of not being judgmental. The interviewee explains their decision to enter the sex industry as a means to support a family and describes a balance between personal and professional life, ensuring their child understood their work and had a supportive upbringing. The social attitudes toward sex workers in the 1980s are discussed as highly negative, with potential consequences such as losing custody of children. The first-hand experience of a friend with HIV/AIDS is shared, revealing the lack of support and affection for those hospitalized for the illness and the profound impact this had on Ritchie. Ritchie discusses vehemently fighting for the rights and safety of sex workers, leading to their involvement in law reform and decriminalization in New Zealand in 2003, which allowed for the negotiation of safe sex without fear of legal repercussions. This reform was fueled by a deep understanding of the human rights of sex workers and the need for HIV/AIDS prevention. The Cartier Trust, founded by Ritchie in memory of a drag queen friend, Courtney Cartier, who died from an HIV-related illness, is described as an organisation committed to providing dignity and support to individuals in the final stages of their life due to HIV/AIDS. The trust operates through public events and volunteer efforts, guided by the principle of maintaining a person's dignity until the end. Ritchie remarks on current complacency regarding HIV/AIDS, suggesting increased public awareness is necessary, as young people are still taking risks due to a lack of fear driven by visible healthy people living with HIV/AIDS. They advocate for straightforward education and the avoidance of political correctness to empower people with knowledge and reduce the spread of HIV/AIDS. Throughout the conversation, Ritchie emphasizes the need for unconditional listening, love, and a non-judgmental approach as crucial for supporting individuals impacted by HIV/AIDS. This philosophy underpins Ritchie's role in the community, especially in leading a support group for under-35 individuals with HIV, offering a space for young people to share stories and gain strength from collective experience. In summary, the recording captures Ritchie's journey through challenging societal norms, advocating for rights and health in the face of a life-threatening virus, and demonstrating the profound importance of compassion and support for those with HIV/AIDS. The full transcription of the recording begins:  Hi. My name's Karen Ritchie. Um, I'm 50 nearly 59 years of age. And, um, for many, many years, um, I worked in the sex industry in Australia and that took me back into the eighties and nineties. Um, during that period of time, condoms and things like that weren't a necessity or necessarily used in the industry. So when HIV became, um, part of our knowledge arrived on the shores, so to speak, in the eighties it became a very, very scary time. Nobody quite knew anything about it, although we knew that it was, um, sexually transmitted. That's the one thing we did know. It changed a lot of things in the sex industry, then to where we used condoms because of the fears around HIV. I had a lot of friends back in that era also who were in the gay lesbian transgender community. And so for them, too, it was the unknown. And it was rather scary. And some of those people did contract the virus and died very early in the days of of being HIV positive. Um, so that was that in itself Was the stigmatisation around that was huge was just absolutely huge people would go into hospital. They were the nurses, and things were gowned up and infectious. Nobody was allowed to see them. And back then when they died, they were not, um, not embalmed. Funeral directors wouldn't embalm them. They were body bagged and and closed up and gone. Um, so the stigmatisation I understand that a little bit back then because they didn't know what they were dealing with. But sadly, that stigmatisation still holds today. Not quite as fierce, but it's still there. Um, so for me, to my involvement with the gay lesbian transgender community, they were the ones that accepted my lifestyle very strongly in the eighties and nineties. It was, uh, the straight community were, um, quite disgusted. A few and I've always been upfront with what I do. So, you know, it wasn't, um it wasn't accepted in that part of the community. So my friendship started back then and all through for the last. Oh, I don't know, 25 years I've involved myself in in the community and, um, found a lot of wonderful friends and and it when I have a great amount of respect. So So how did you get to that point in your life where you're working in the sex industry in Queensland. Um, I had a son, and, um, when I went to Australia, I couldn't get work. It was, uh, five months before I actually, you know, got work. The Kiwis didn't have a very good name back then because they would get a job and then they'd train them or whatever and go a few months later because they were travelling, so that was very difficult. And I was working in an office back here in New Zealand, and I had all references and so forth. Um, I still had a family to support and rent to pay and food to buy. And, um, I took this ad up and it was reception at a at a massage parlour of brothel. And I thought, Oh, I'll go there. So I did that. And I remember saying to the owner, um, I this is you're not expecting me to work and he said, No. I said, Well, that's good. So I took that job on Met some wonderful, wonderful ladies in the industry, Um, no different to myself as in having a family supporting families and, um, of course, they were earning good money, and I thought, Oh, I can do this. So that was my transition. I jumped the fence. And, um, you know, as I say, I have no regrets in that side of my life. I think that has made me who I am today. What were the things that you took away from those experiences? Um, not to be as judgmental as probably what I could have been, Um, in the earlier days, there were people in that industry for all different reasons. Um, I'm sure people are aware there are some in there that were for drugs, some of them there for supporting families. Some were in there for being bankrupt and trying to get themselves back on top again. I worked with women who came from very good families. Like I'm talking police commissioner. I'm talking all sorts of, um, families that they came from. So and, you know, in the early days, I think my son was about nine, and I said to him that I'm what I'm doing actually is going off to and have dinner with people. I'm I'm That's you know, that's when you tell Children what they can accept in their little brain. And then I used to have barbecues and that round at my place. And the ladies used to come around with their families and things like that, and my son got to meet them and, you know, just they weren't just a family like we were. So as he got a bit older, then I explained to him what I was doing. He has always been fine with that. Even today at 40 I've asked him if that's ever played AAA hard role in his life. And he said, No, not at all, Mum. And he's a businessman today, so I've always been straight up with with him over everything I've done. What about societal attitudes back then, how was the industry seen? God, we were disgusting. We were disgusting human beings. Um, yes, we were very much looked down upon, uh, it's it was a lot different, too. Back then, there was every possibility that you could have lost your Children. Um, they they could be taken off you for the kind of life that you led. Um, so it was just you had to be a little bit careful around who you told in case somebody reported you and put you down as not a fit mother. And I was a very fit mother. Um, you know, I'd like to say that, um, my son was always my priority, and that's why I was in the industry to give him and myself a better life. So can you remember the first experience of, um, coming across HIV or AIDS? Yes, I can. I had a friend in Australia that, um, contracted the virus, um, back in the eighties, and I used to sit with him regularly, you know? And we have a drink and just eat off the same plates, drink out of the same cups, all those sort of things. Our lives didn't change. You know, we were just We were friends when he became very, very unwell. Um, nobody could see him in the hospital. They wouldn't allow anybody in to see him. As I say, it was an infectious disease ward. Everyone was gowned up. Closed. Um, and that was it. And and, you know, people quite often died alone back then died alone. Very, very sad. Their families, all sorts of people, just totally distanced themselves from them. So that in itself was, you know, huge. I'm I'm really glad it's not quite like that today, although there is still stigma to the point where people still feel it's a gay disease. And that really irritates me because that, uh, the disease doesn't have a preference on culture or colour or sexual agenda. It doesn't have a preference. Anybody can contract the virus, the disease, so that stigma is still there. So, seeing, um, friends, uh, pass away in that very kind of isolated way How How what kind of impact did that have on you? Huge, huge impact? Because I've always come from a very close family safe family, um, to where my family always knew what I was doing. Um, so for people to not have some form of support or love in that stage in their life, it really, really did and still does today make me very, very sad. Um, and that does does happen a little bit still today. Sometimes the families, you know, are not as close during that time as what they could be or should be. So that did have a very, very strong impact on on on my life and and and on my sons, too. I mean, you know, as I say, he's he's very aware of what life's all about, and and, um, just to think that people have to go through that alone really does does upset me. Did some of those events, um, change your life's direction? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I've always I've always been a person that tries to give support to others in the best way I can, Um, pretty much that's been something I've I've done in my life, but it certainly had its impact. Um, when I came back to Australia to New Zealand, I fought strong and hard for law reform with, um, New Zealand prostitutes collective around making changes in the sex industry. And that, to me, was for the human rights and, um, adults to make choices that they choose to make And, um, for for safety, too, so that people could negotiate safe sex so they didn't have to worry about whether it was the the police or something like that. Trying to, you know, bust them because they've got condoms and they're talking about condoms, you know, in the in the usage of sex. Um, so I I fought strong and hard for that, and I strongly believe that that was a necessity, um, of the prevention of HIV. And that happened in 2003. So we got that through with, um, one vote, which, um was I was, uh, in the gallery at the time at Parliament, and I worked alongside Tim Barnett very closely with that bill. Um, so I was in parliament the night that that went through, and it was It was really, really good. And as I say, I think it's there are flaws. There's flaws in everything. You know. You can't You can't get everything right, er in a bill. But just for people to be able to negotiate condom usage was very strong for me in my fight. So, um and and that was, as I say, my main reason there was around HIV STIs that people could negotiate that and feel that it was OK. They're not gonna get busted. And secondly, if people had, um, properties or had actually been in the industry and bought, um, something that they couldn't lose their property under the, um, lure of, um, what is it the money, wrongful earnings and things like that, you know? So, um, that was all good. I was very I said to my son, Goodness, your mother's changed the law. That's a very public statement coming out and and actually really advocating for a law change. Where does that, um, passion and also being willing to be out there in the public? Where does that come from? I think probably again. We come back to the stigmatisation. I've been a fortunate, um, person through my life in the sense that my I've not had to live double life. I've been able to discuss this with my family. Um, I'm still somebody's mother, somebody's sister, somebody's daughter. And I've been lucky to have that family to accept me for who I am, knowing who I am, not what I'm for, what I'm doing. So that strength in me, I think, came from that because through those years I certainly saw and have seen many people throughout life who don't have family support, and I think it's important and you must have it. What do you think of news reports? I mean, and and there are still news reports that happen where It's a very bigger part of a news report saying somebody's been murdered or they were a sex worker. It disgusts me. It disgusts me. So the same thing? Oh, he was gay. Does it really matter? Does it matter what what gender you are or what you do for a living? For goodness sake, you you've been murdered. And that really has always disgusted me that they've got to, um, sensationalise something by the persons whether they be gay, lesbian, transgender or whether they be a sex worker. And you'd always find those are the two areas that they tend to sensationalise if something goes wrong and you know that just appals me. And hence throughout my life, that's I've seen people who I've known, people who were raped, whether they be gay, whether they be sex workers. Um, all sorts of things have gone on, um, in their life, and not only from the people outside who walk the street. I'm talking on on a police level as well. And of course, they don't have never reported these things because they are then immediately stigmatised and and that whole news thing is out. So over the years, people haven't reported a lot of things. And today we don't live quite live in that world today where you can't go and report and especially sex workers, because they can go and report if they've been mishandled or mistreated. And, um, it doesn't become a a big public arena as much as it used to and that that comes through decriminalisation. So that is a good thing. So what are some other ways that you've tackled the whole kind of stigmatisation area? I think speaking with people who have got a child who has been diagnosed HIV, I think the first things that ever come out of my mouth and when I worked for the AIDS Foundation and people would ring in and say, um, my flatmate or my son or whoever, um, has been diagnosed, The very first thing that comes out of my mouth is your life can go on as normal. You know, this does not change anything in your house. You can eat from the same plates you can drink from the same cup. You can wash your clothes in the same washing machine. All of those things which people who have never had to face this before, Have no idea. And I can remember people saying, Oh, really? That's not a problem. Not at all. You know, that's, uh, you just your life goes on as normal. There is support available for you and your loved one or your flatmate or whoever you know, go from there. But the one thing that always came out of my mouth that I remember is your life can go on as per normal. Unless somebody's having a indication with this person. That's when they need to be aware and safe. But over and above that, everything's the same. So I get my little bitch in every now and again. Yeah. In 2000, you established the Cartier trust. I did? Yes. Can you tell me about that? Yes. Well, Courtney Cartier. She was a drag queen in Auckland, and she was HIV positive, of course. And she died with an HIV related illness. She, um, always called me mother, and, um, she was just a wonderful, wonderful person. I loved her dearly. She had the most beautiful, um, personality. And I used to take her up to um Auckland Hospital regularly for her visit. She contracted cancer through the time of having the virus. So I used to take her up for treatment. Her and her cousin and I would go up and we have treatment. And there and then when she, um, left the hospital, she was funny. She was so funny. Um, her birthday at she was a drag at. And, um, she was a that she was going to, um, you know, go back to and have a few drinks and da da da da. So her birthday was at Kut probably only a few weeks before she died. And she was in a wheelchair at that point because the cancer had, you know, gone into her back and things, and we propped her up on the bar so that she could do her last drag show. Um, and Courtney's mum and dad had had passed on, and she was an only child. And she had her cousin, which she used to live with, and Courtney didn't have any money. So, as a community, we rallied along with her cousin to to, um, give her a funeral that she deserved. And she talked openly before she died about what she wanted. And and as I say she went into her bay house and her coffin was put in the garage. And it was, um, decorated, so to speak. And she wanted it all decorated. Well, it looked a bit like a float, you see, going down Ponsonby Road. And she wasn't, um, gonna die until she saw the finish of her coffin. And so we finished that and bless her soul. She passed away. Not that much longer, but, um, she touched me. She touched me a lot. Um, she was a She was a fighter. She was a wonderful person. Um, beautiful nature. And And I think just to have her she had wonderful friends, but to not actually have her family mum and dad, As I say, they passed on. So I pretty much slept on the couch at her in the house many nights to stay with her and, um took her up to hospital one night in the middle of the night to Auckland because they couldn't get the catheter and things like that. And so they rang me and I went and picked her up and took her up to Auckland, and I have to say, even in the year 2000. I, um her treatment I felt was not acceptable. I did explain to them that she was a friend. I wasn't her caregiver. And, of course, it came to the point at the end of her being looked after by the medical staff, I had to redress her. And I say her I always related to Courtney as she always so I can't change that. Carl was her real name. Fuck out, Daniels. But to me, she was Courtney. So, um, we then, um, auctioned a lot of her clothes when she passed away, actually, And we bought things for her in the house to benefit other patients that were there. And from there the trust was birthed because I thought, Well, you know, there are people here that have had this virus for a long time. They've gone through their savings, they've surviving now, um, and that's probably all they're doing is surviving. And, um, it's really important that that last part of the journey, they have some dignity. So that was my introduction to starting the trust. And I'm very proud of the trust because we've been able to support and help a lot of people throughout the years. Sadly, of course, but I'm very grateful that we've been able to and loved ones and families have been very, very appreciative of that. So, um, yeah, I'm I'm very passionate, very passionate about the trust. How does the trust work? We run events. Um, we used to run a lot of little events. Now we do sort of one annually. Um, we're in a good, stable place financially. Uh, we were able to put about $10,000 back into the community of Auckland. I think that was 2008, where we put money back into outline and, you know, different places that we were able to because there hadn't been, um, a lot of deaths through times with Iraq. We've got some surplus money here. We can help another gay lesbian transgender organisation with at the time of need. So we did that. Um, of course, things change. In 2010, we had four deaths, so things can change in a heartbeat. Yes. So, um, and none of us get paid the trustees on the, um, trust board, They come on with the passion of it, or they don't Come on at all? Uh, I don't. I have a full time job. I work for sexual health. So this is my voluntary work and the same as all the trustees. All have full time jobs and, as again, volunteer their time. We don't have office space. The office space is my my dining room, so to speak, when need be, um And, you know, that's so we can keep money for the purpose of We meet for lunch, probably once a year on an annual our annual, um, meeting, and that becomes our, um, accountant and the trust members. And we meet and go over everything and have our discussion. And yes, we do have lunch on trust behalf of Guardia Trust and that's come from our accountant said we must, you know, we must have something that's important. I mean, we could be claiming on our trusted petrol or anything that we do, but we don't. I mean, in actual fact, it probably costs me more than, um, you know, than anything else. Uh, but that's how I want it. I want our money to go into the trust. And, yes, we have a lunch. But as I say will tell you quite often our lunches. I'll go to food town and get a chicken and some buns or something like that. And bits and pieces. And we'll go back to my place or one of the trustees houses and and have lunch. Yeah. So, um, you know, people I remember somebody was moaning about that car. Do you have lunch on us once. And And it was on a forum of KN dot com, and I just stay away from that. And I think I can't be bothered with this nonsense. You know, Um, so if they sort of call about $90 for a lunch for about five people or six people and for all the hard work that everyone does, a problem will. That's fine. Are there other similar trusts around the world? No. And interesting. You should say that because, um, in 2006, I was in Canada. I was, uh, flown there by the sex industry Canadian sex indu industry to talk about, uh, how we got law reform through. And there were HIV positive people there. And, um, because it was a harm reduction conference. So it was all around people who was, um, intravenous drug users, too, and, you know, so forth and so on who were HIV positive. And they were just in awe. They couldn't believe it. They thought it was the most fantastic, fantastic thing they'd ever heard of. And I've had that, um, come from many walks of life actually from different parts of the world, that it's just what we do is just awesome. They couldn't believe that that somebody, you know, that an organisation and and community were actually doing that. And I always say to people that you know it, it's owned by the community. I drive it. That's that's the only thing is the community own it, and I drive it and we're very transparent. So, um, you know our accountant and all that sort of thing. As I said, they all work for nothing. They all do everything for nothing. So we're very, very fortunate, very fortunate to have some very good people on board you mentioned earlier just a wee bit earlier about, um, dignity. Is that a big thing for you? Absolutely, absolutely. I think at that last part of your life, no matter where you come from, no matter what you've done, no matter who you are, whether it'd be acceptable or not acceptable. I think you have a right to leave this world with dignity. And and that is very important to me. Yes. Where does that come from? I think be because Well, I guess if we go back, if we go back to the early days of HIV, I guess we can go back to that and And where I have seen that that hasn't happened. Um, and my question is, why? Why? You know, these are people. These are people that that have been unwell. Um, you wouldn't treat cancer patients like this, so don't treat HIV people like this. So I think that's that goes back a bit. And as I said for for myself, personally, um, again, I've been fortunate to. Whereas we've made sure in our family that people have passed on with dignity. Um, and I come from a great line of cancer. I have a lot of cancer through my family. My son was diagnosed at 27. He's now 40. I lost my brother six months ago. My father, um to me there's no difference you HIV or your cancer. You're dying, for heaven's sake. You know, if you're at that stage where you're going to die, you are dying. Why should it be different? Why should we treat people differently in that part? Last part of the journey. So now you're working in sexual health? Has has that changed over the years in terms of HIV and AIDS? Um, I mean, are people still taking risks? What's your assessment At the moment, people are still taking risks. Yes. And of course, I'm out and about in road Auckland. Quite a lot. I still, you know, like to go out and socialise, and yeah, I mean, I'm I'm sure between the AIDS Foundation sexual health, whether you're out socialising you, can you You can see that people are still taking risks. Yes, they are. Why is that? I think people are complacent, I think because people feel that Oh, there's medication there. There's drugs there today, and what they do see is healthy looking people where in the eighties and nineties, you didn't see that you saw very unwell looking people. So the young one? Well, not just the young ones, but I. I guess my focus is on the young ones who are coming through is that, um what you see is not always what life is, and they may look healthy, but that could change too. You know, they could become resistant to their drugs. All sorts of things can change through that period of time. And as I say, I have still sat with people who are very unwell and looking very unhealthy while they're dying in hospital. So that complacency is there. Um, I think we we need to put something back on TV like the drink driving ads, Um, the physical abuse ads so that your mainstream can see that this disease is still here. And there is no cure people who are out and about in the communities nowhere to find, like support and help. But if they're not out in the community and the young ones coming through school, um, they don't know a lot about that on the education system, we've got some very wonderful people who have the ability to educate in schools, and they are educating. But we're too PC. We're too PC that, um you gotta be very careful what they say. And I'm afraid I, I disagree with that. I disagree with that. I I'm one of these people that you say it. How it is and how it is for me is that this disease is still there. It's like the ocean. If you disrespect it, it can take you. Um, we talk about having life jackets in the ocean because it's bigger than us. Well, we need to talk about using condoms because this disease is bigger than us. And, uh, as I say, it needs to be on TV to the mainstream of people who are sitting in the lounges and see it. You don't see anything in the doctor's surgeries. You don't see HIV pamphlets or things like that in the doctor's surgeries. So how are these young ones to know? I can still remember in the eighties that Grim Reaper television advert for HIV and AIDS. Do you remember that? Oh, that was huge. Gosh, I was living in Australia and that was huge. It was very, very scary. It was very scary. Um, I've got to be honest back then, because of the unknown around HIV. It's certainly made a few people sit up and think and think Well, you know and it certainly did, um, for a lot of people I know I don't think we need anything as harsh as that today at all. I think we just need to bring out the awareness. Um, in T on TV that this virus is I call it virus diseases. I don't know. It's just I go two ways there that, um, it is still here. It is still here, and there is no cure and you can you can avoid this and it's giving people the power to make those choices. How can they make those choices if they don't have the knowledge? And that's how I feel very strongly. Knowledge is powerful. Don't leave it too late for them to get that knowledge. Let's stop being so PC in this country. Let's get it into the schools. Let's get it on the TV because the statistics are still there and they're growing. The proof is there, and it seems to be affecting a lot of people in their early twenties thirties. Absolutely. I run a I cos support an under 35 HIV group and some of those yeah, they are kids. They they they're young, you know, they're young people. Um I look at as I say, my own family and I look at them coming through life, and I think, boy, I'm very strong in educating them. I mean, I give them every every bit of knowledge every pay for it from sexual health. Believe you, me, I pack it all up and give it to them to read anything about TIS and HIV S. They've got it. Um, and I'm very open in discussion with them. Very open in discussion with them. And as I say, even the teenage ones know where my journey's been. So they know that I have the knowledge they're not sitting back. They're just sort of thinking. Oh, well, how do you know? You know, you're an old lady now. They know I have the knowledge, and they know that, um, I'm still involved in the community of HIV, so you know they do. They do hear what I'm saying. Whether they take it on board and and, um, use it will remain to be seen. I hope so. But all I can say is they've been given the knowledge they have the power. So what's your role with the, um under. It's under 35. 35? Yes. We just, um it was something that I wanted to do for some time, because out in the community a lot of these young ones I used to see all the time being rather free and, you know, alcohol and just, you know, I mean, I used to see such a lot, and I thought, Oh, dear. And then I'd I'd get some of the young ones say, Oh, you know, I've been diagnosed HIV and and very withdrawn because all of a sudden it's hit them. Now they've got it. And, um, where do I go? What do I do now? So I approached Craig and Bruce at body positive, um, to see if we could. So anyway, we've run it under the body. Positive umbrella. Well, it it's it's called get connected. But we use their premises at body positive. So it's first Sunday of every month. Um, we introduce ourselves when new ones come in, we can have discussion. We've either got a format that we might discuss around, um, how they feel. Um, we might just have an open floor, and, um, a a strong emphasis is put on that they have responsibilities. Um, now to make sure that they use condoms, that they don't have to disclose if they're using condoms. But if they're not going to use condoms, they need to disclose We We haven't put a strong emphasis on that so that we keep them safe from any ridicule and making wrong choices and wrong decisions. And it's a great little It's a great little organisation or club. Whatever. I have watched some of these boys grow in the 12 months who have come in very sheepish, very. You know, um, we were at Bed Street at fundraise for body positive, and a few of the boys were there under the 35 group. And I remember one of them coming up to me and saying, I feel normal, Karen giving me a big hug. I feel so normal. This is great. I said, Darling, you are normal. You are absolutely normal. So to see that transition from fear what people may think, Um, how do I come through this? Where do I get the power to be strong in me, You know, and, um yeah, it's wonderful. I love it. They're very special. So Where do you get the power to be strong? When, for instance, you've you've seen friends pass away in the in the eighties and and people now are coming down with HIV. It's like history repeating in some ways. Yeah, well, it is. Um I suppose I'll give you an ex. Uh, I suppose I get support from my trustees. There's a lot of things that go on, of course, under confidentiality that I can't disclose and I wouldn't disclose. So I probably walk around with more secrets than my. As one of the drag queens said to McCray. She'll go. She'll go to her grave with more secrets than anyone you ever know. So So, um, you know, there's a lot that I've got to keep to myself. Um, but I have support from my trustees because they know they know that I quite often and with people a lot who are unwell. Um, I think probably the hardest one for me recently was I lost my brother at Auckland Hospital with cancer. Um, and then five weeks later, I was up there with a young boy. That young man, I should say that had called my mother for years dying of HIV. So I was back in that hospital. Uh, you know, five weeks after losing my own brother. So that was quite hard. I felt that very hard. I just you know, it was, um, two very different people, but people that I that I loved and and for different reasons So But I do get my support, As I say I, I find my support somewhere or I find my solace by just shutting everything off at home and having some peace and quiet. Um, you mentioned to me earlier that you had, uh, mentioned to somebody at the support group that you were doing an interview about making a difference and and what was their response? It's quite interesting because I I asked this person actually, um, via email, and he said to me, um, what was his words? You listen, you love you don't judge and it's just so important. It's just so important because it's three things that some of them can be lacking in not having, you know, somebody to listen to them. Somebody to love them. And somebody did not make judgement. And that really took me back. Because I I hadn't really given it that thought. To be honest, I hadn't honestly given it that thought. But that was very, very, very special. Really? So, um, I guess we're doing something right. If I've got not much to give, I can give lots of love and support. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1980s ; Auckland ; Auckland Hospital ; Australia ; Body Positive ; Canada ; Cartier Trust ; Coming Up ; Drag Queen ; Events ; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA) ; God ; HIV / AIDS ; Job ; Karen Ritchie ; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF) ; People ; Ponsonby ; Queensland ; Space ; Spain ; Tim Barnett ; abuse ; accountancy ; agenda ; alcohol ; birthday ; board ; broken ; busted ; cafe ; cancer ; caregiver ; change ; children ; coffin ; collective ; coming out ; community ; complacency ; condoms ; conference ; culture ; data ; difference ; dignity ; double life ; drag ; drugs ; education ; email ; face ; family ; fear ; food ; forum ; friends ; fruit ; funeral ; gallery ; gay ; gender ; grave ; health ; history ; hit ; hope ; hospital ; hug ; human rights ; journey ; knowledge ; ladies ; law ; lesbian ; lifestyle ; love ; mainstream ; massage ; nature ; news ; normal ; other ; passion ; peace ; police ; power ; prevention ; profile ; queen ; regrets ; rent ; respect ; sad ; safety ; school ; sex ; sexual health ; sleep ; statistics ; stigma ; straight ; support ; teenage ; time ; top ; transgender ; transition ; treat ; trust ; volunteer ; vote ; women ; work. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/karen_ritchie_profile.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089179. Karen Ritchie also features audibly in the following recordings: "International AIDS Candlelight Memorial (2018)" and "Our Forgotten Epidemic. Part Four - How we lost so many". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.