The title of this recording is "Ruth DeSouza". It was recorded in Ponsonby Community Centre, 20 Ponsonby Terrace, Ponsonby, Auckland on the 5th February 2012. Ruth DeSouza is presenting.  Their name is spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 19 minutes, but this may not reflect the actual length of the proceedings. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Ruth gives a keynote presentation at the hui. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: In an insightful keynote presentation recorded on February 5, 2012, at the Ponsonby Community Centre in Auckland, Ruth DeSouza shared their research findings and aroused thought-provoking discussions on the intersectionality of maternity, mental health, and migration. DeSouza's presentation began by outlining the intention to delve into their recently completed Ph. D. research. By dividing the hour-long session into a mix of lecture and interactive group work, DeSouza aimed to foster an atmosphere conducive to mutual learning and conversation. Through experiences gained working in mental health and wanting to witness the joy in life, DeSouza was initially attracted to a postnatal ward in National Women's Hospital, Auckland. However, they were soon confronted with the significant cultural dissonance between institutional maternity care practices and the needs and traditions of migrant women, particularly those from Asia. The practitioner observed how standardized healthcare protocols often negatively impacted these women, highlighting the clash between warm and cold treatments, post-birth pampering traditions, and New Zealand's expectation of quick maternal self-sufficiency. Motivated by these observations, DeSouza embarked on a journey to investigate the influence of institutions on individual subjectivity. Specifically, they focused on how women of color experienced childbirth and postnatal care, against the backdrop of their cultural contexts and the dominant health system's expectations. DeSouza engaged with a wide array of women from countries like Iraq, Palestine, China, Korea, India, the UK, USA, and South Africa, alongside health professionals, to understand their perspectives on maternity care. Furthermore, DeSouza delved into theoretical frameworks to analyze maternity care's historical and ideological foundations. They drew on Michel Foucault's concepts of discourse and genealogy to trace the origins of present-day practices and beliefs, questioning how certain hegemonic values come to be replicated through the system, and the impact it had on migrant mothers and healthcare professionals. Key to DeSouza's research was the critical examination of how societal structures and expectations could create barriers or inequities for migrant mothers. The research also probed into the narratives surrounding birth as a transformational experience and whether this idea was truly accessible to women of color. DeSouza challenged the audience to consider the broader implications of reproductive practices on society's fabric, especially how these practices replicate power dynamics and societal norms. To facilitate a deeper understanding, DeSouza presented discourse examples, even sharing contemporary cultural representations like Valentine's Day cards from the 1950s, to illustrate the pervasive yet often unacknowledged ideologies shaping societal views on topics like gender relationships and addiction. In closing, DeSouza proposed an interactive element, intending to break down the presentation into smaller discussions focusing on quotes from healthcare professionals. The goal was to stimulate critical thinking and evaluation of prevailing discourses that professionals in the maternity care sector hold. The full transcription of the recording begins:  What? What I'd like to do is I've got approximately an hour. I, I believe, Um, what I'd like to do is, um, talk to you a bit about my PhD research, which I completed last year. Um, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger or something. You know, Doctor, Doctor Ruth? Yeah, and, um yes. Always willing to give advice. Oh, II. I might have to be careful with what I say. Hey, that record, Um and so what I'd like to do is sort of share with you how I came to do the research. Um, some of the framing around, um, the research and why I chose those ways of doing things. And then what I'd like to do is actually give you, um, the actual stuff that women have said. And the thing that nurses have said, and I just like to divide us into groups, get people talking and then bring you all together and then have a talk about that. So I was thinking of using that hour in that way. Does that sound all right? And so, um, it's gonna sound a little bit teacher at the beginning. Um, but I'd really like it to be a conversation and from my own experience. Uh, it's kind of like if one person doesn't understand something, usually more than one don't. So if there's anything that doesn't make sense, I I'd be really happy for it to be, uh, a conversation rather than me talking about something that you don't know what I'm talking about. Does that make sense? So, um yeah. So what I'd like to talk about is, um, my field is maternity, and, um, it's actually it's actually mental health. And it's maternity, and it's migration. So, um, one of the things that I decided to do for my PhD um I was working at, uh, National Women's Hospital, uh, in Auckland, and what I decided was I'd been working in mental health for about 13 years by that point, and I thought, I want to go and see some happy endings. I wanna go and see, you know, be in a setting where I can make a difference to people. So I went to work on a post natal ward. Um, and one of the things that really shocked me was the ways in which routinized care, um, was actually quite harmful to women and their babies. And at the time, there were lots of women from, uh, Asia who were using services more and more, and I became quite concerned about the sort of taken for granted ways in which we delivered care that seemed to automatically, um, have a negative impact on women. So what I'm very, very interested in is how institutions shape subjectivity. So I'm gonna talk about that some more. So just to give you an example, one of the things that we routinely did and and you will have some understanding of these things with your background and reproductive health was when women had a baby, we'd sort of go around and we'd say, Here's an ice pack. So it was a block of ice, um, wrapped in cloth. And we'd say to women Pop this on your perineum, dear, Does you ever know what a Perrine is? Yeah. No. Yeah. So that that's the area between your clitoris and your bum. Thank you. Yeah, further round thunder. Ok. And for lots and for lots of, um, you know, female bodies. It was kind of Well, um, we we stay warm when we've had a baby. We don't want anything cold near us. Yeah, so that's a tradition in many parts of the world. The other big thing was, um, in many of our cultures, when you have a baby, you're someone who's really special. You've been through heaps, and everyone is supposed to just love you, honour you and pamper you. Right? Uh, and in New Zealand, it's kind of like you've had your baby. Get on with it. Feed your baby, change your baby. We want you to become as independent as soon as possible. So, you know, I was seeing all the ways in which there are these culture clashes, and these culture clashes were frustrating for my colleagues. And they're incredibly frustrating for women, you know? And every woman of colour that I passed by would look at me beseechingly, you know? So So it's kind of like, save me. You know, that this place is not treating me well. So this fantasy I had of maternity as this place where we could really honour women, uh, became completely trashed. So, um, what I decided to do was, um, talk to women about their experiences, and I decided to talk to health professionals about their experiences about having a baby, uh, looking after women. Um, and so what I did was, um I've been teaching Plunket nurses who are child health nurses, um, about postnatal depression for about 18 years. So that's my field. Um, specifically. And, um, I arranged focus groups with health professionals, and I had focus groups with women from Iraq, Palestine, China, Korea, India, the UK, the US and South Africa. So, you know, quite a range of women, and a lot of women also fundraise for this project. So it was a real labour of love, you know, lots of voluntary time. So these are the kinds of questions that I, um, wanted to ask in my research. Um, because you know what reproduction means is not just this individual moment. It's about what kind of society are we recreating? Yeah. What kind of hegemonic values and beliefs are we replicating? Um, And if your subjectivity, your personhood has been formed in a different context, what does it mean to be inserted into the machinery? Sorry. What? What does it mean to be inserted? Yeah, into the machinery of of the system that that, um what I learned was very factory like so we were trying to produce a particular type of person, you know, and and, um, I see this in terms of my own nursing education. So I did my I started my nursing education in 1984. Um 0, heck, I've given away my age and and you know, one of the things that my PhD supervisor, who's in Seattle said, You know, he's he's written about this. He said It doesn't matter what the materials are. They're forced into this curriculum machine, which is shaped by whiteness and colonisation that produces a universal nurse. So if you think about our academic organisations, we talk about the critique and conscience of society, but they're converting various raw materials into some kind of standardised person. Yeah. Oh, stop it. I'm brushing, um, questions. Like we talk about bicultural. We talk about so but what does it mean when we, you know, nurses were the ones that said, cultural safety? That's when the end use of the Service service decides that the service has been appropriate. It's me means what does it mean in the New Zealand context, really, with people of colour, women of colour who who aren't Maori. So these are the kinds of things that I was interested in and this liberal feminist idea of birth as transformational for women. Um, does it actually get realised for women of colour? So I was really interested in those kinds of questions. Is everyone still with me? Ok, um, any time I get boring, just do this. Yeah, um, so upset. That was fast. OK, so So I told you I did these focus groups, and they were a starting point. But what I started becoming interested in is where did these ideas come from? So Michel Foucault, the French theorist, talks about the history of the present. How do we come to have these ideas? Because they're not new. They've all come from somewhere. And he talks about a genealogical method to look at how things come into being. So I decided to look at that about maternity. Um, and I'm also interested in the idea of discourse, which I'm gonna tell you about, which is that actually, we don't have any individual ideas, OK, so I'm just thinking of those of you that are parents. I'm I'm not a parent. Um But I have lots of little people in my life, and they just repeat everything that's said in the environment, don't they? Would you agree with you, those of you that So I reckon, Even as adults, we do the same thing. We You know, when we're saying something, we're reproducing something that we've, um, caught an and that we've heard around us, and we repeat it, and we don't always critique it. It becomes taken for granted. Um, but there are a whole lot of, um, ideas and concepts that are mobilised, you know, and Belinda, you talked about stereotypes yesterday. You know, there are things that we might not even be conscious of, but we draw them down, and they become part of us here, and they live in our bodies. Um, so I was interested in what kind of discourses are mobilised. Hey, and if anyone wants any of these notes, I'm really happy to email them to you or anything like that. Um, what kind of discourses are mobilised? And so I want to take you through the idea of discourses and discourse analysis because it's something I've become really interested in as, uh where's our textual friend. So you know, you'll you'll find this interesting. You know, the the idea of text, and I'm gonna give you some text because I thought of you last night and text. So it's kind of about can we deconstruct the relationships, conditions and mechanisms of power and identify how they emerge? So discourses make available particular ways of seeing the world particular stories about things. And I'm gonna give you an example in a minute. So don't get worried about that definition. So what I wanted to do was to say OK, what are the kinds of discourses about migrant mothers? Yeah, Where did those ideas come from? And what are the impacts of those ways of thinking? And are there some other ways of thinking about them? Does that make sense? Yeah, maybe. OK, so what I wanna do is I wanna show you some examples of discourse and text by showing you some pictures. Now, these are pictures of, um, a very heterosexual generally, uh, event that's coming up next week. Valentine's Day. Ok, um and what I realised is that they might also to trigger people, so I just wanna apologise about that because, um they do have a particular version of love or relationship that might be upsetting. So please look after yourself if if if something does come up, OK, so when you look at this, what does this say to you about a relationship between a man and a woman and Valentine's psycho Psycho? Power and control. Sorry. Ownership? Absolutely. OK, so I want you to just throw out your ideas. But But these were sort of, you know, these are real currents from the fifties. OK, it's inevitable. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, No consent. What about this one? Um this is but this is I aim to please you my valentine. It's just completely tear. They found babies. First word did you say face first? I think my ears are painted on. Yeah, yeah. Let's get a better face first. Could be. Could be OK, I'll read this one for you In case you can't see it. You built a wall so fast and strong, but with my magic Ray, it won't last long. So you know, in Are you studying? Pardon? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a theme. Yeah, exactly. OK, I'm out hunting for Valentine. Are you gay? Are you Are you game? Are you to be hunted by me? Yeah, I like that. You're an animal. You're cute. Thought that was probably one of the first Minister of that. Was not. Yeah. So? So what you're starting to talk about are the kind of discourses. Yeah. So I'm just trying to give you a sense of what? What are the kinds of ways we frame relationships and heterosexual relationships in Valentine's card say, in the fifties. But, you know, these would have been sorry. Yeah, but but, you know, I'm just, you know, this is kind of a little bit extreme, but it's to try and get you thinking about the idea of discourse as sort of a way of thinking that's circulating, and that's socially kind of constructive. Is that kind of coming through? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's about this the other night and they were talking about a similar kind of like on the bet There's a broom and a candle. I courting dance and the broom is saying is the man and the candle is the woman and the broom saying, Oh, you want me? And then the he's like No, no, no. And then it's. And then eventually the broom gets off the candle and it kind of telling Children that no means yes. Yes. Yeah. So? So there's all these ways of thinking that, um, you know, you can deconstruct and start sort of thinking about what were the dominant ideas of the time about how relationships work. So that's kind of the point. I'm I'm I'm trying to make here this one. I'm bound to be yours, if you will be mine. Yeah, OK. Yeah. What's a safe word? Yeah, you know. OK. And and then, you know, yesterday you saw that one about the yellow peril. Here's another one. So what do you see When you see this? I'll I'll just read out to you in case you can't see it at the bottom. It says the Hindu spelled HINDOO peril. Small politicians open the door. And this guy is the imperial politician. White New Zealand policy. How how is the other Who's Indian in this case or South Asian? How are they framed in this picture? They're a monster. They're much bigger, aren't they? Look how big their foot is in the door. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, it's scary. It's scary. scary white man saying that they're small, so sort of implying that it takes someone, you know, big humans to be a open, and they're not willing to be, so they're kind of small. And it's true that a lot of the community came to very small. Maybe that show that this small number and that is all from that community. But even though, yeah, he he is a small person, he doesn't and and yeah, yeah, yeah. And the other thing that I find is really interesting. You know, um, and the New Zealand first politician, who I challenged this morning was not very impressed with me at all, but, uh, but, um, the the other thing that I find interesting is the way in which those kind of metaphors are evoked, you know, the yellow peril. Dangerous, infectious, contaminating, untreatable, you know, or continuous exactly all of those things. Now, now, I just want to sort of shift that idea of discourses. I'm just trying to take you a bit on a journey, right, um, to think about, um, alcohol and drug use. You know, one of one of my my first job was working in a methadone clinic, you know, and I'm very interested in the kind of different discourses around drugs and addiction. And so I'm trying to just sort of give you a bit of a sense of what I'm talking about when I talk about discourse before we move into my material, OK? Is this helpful? Yeah. So a moral discourse about drug use is that, you know, if you use drugs, you're bad, you're evil. Um, you know, it's a moral weakness using drugs and the the kind of treatment or the the The mechanism to correct it is to persuade the drug user that it's a bad thing to do. Yeah, and the impact of stigmatisation. The person is sort of considered the least a citizen and punished, you know? So it's criminal right disease discourse. Well, the drugs are OK, but some people can't cope with the drug, So, um, the person has a predisposition, so we should protect them from the drug. Hence the abstinence model. Yeah, the a AN a model. And then if people abstain, then they'll be fine, you know? And for some people, the drug is OK and then pharmacological discourses Drugs are dangerous and overpowering we need to protect people from them. We have legislation, Uh, and people are victims who might use the drug. Yeah. So you have legislation, Um, again, some of the a AN a discourses. You know, we are powerless over drug use, etcetera. Yeah, and in fact, it's much more complicated. It's more of a triangle. There's no one causative thing. Yeah, and there's a relationship of factors, so I'm just trying to give you a sense of the the different ways in which, you know, discourses work in different areas. So what I want to do now, if I can is Are you alright if I divide you into groups and give you some something to do? Yeah. And what I'd like to do is, um, first of all, give you some quotes from Plunket nurses, and I'd like you to kind of just have a think about them. So I'm wondering, um, can I divide you that? Yeah. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Africa ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Asian ; Auckland ; China ; Coming Up ; Events ; Hawaii ; India ; Iraq ; Job ; Korea ; Palestine ; People ; People of Colour Decolonisation Hui ; Ruth DeSouza ; Seattle ; South Africa ; Stuff ; abstinence ; activism ; addiction ; advice ; alcohol ; animals ; bottom ; cats ; change ; community ; conversation ; culture ; depression ; difference ; dominant ; drag ; drugs ; education ; email ; environment ; fantasy ; feminism ; french ; friends ; future ; gay ; health ; heterosexual ; history ; hospital ; hunting ; individual ; journey ; legislation ; love ; mental health ; opportunity ; other ; podcast ; policy ; power ; relationships ; research ; safety ; stereotypes ; teacher ; teaching ; time ; understanding ; values ; women ; work ; yellow. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/dym_ruth_desouza.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089208. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.