The title of this recording is "Dr Hjelmar von Dannevill". It is described as: Author and researcher Julie Glamuzina talks about the extraordinary life of Dr Hjelmar von Dannevill. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 27th February 2020. Julie Glamuzina is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 58 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: Author and researcher Julie Glamuzina talks about the extraordinary life of Dr Hjelmar von Dannevill. The doctor arrived in New Zealand in 1911 with little documentation and began working in a health home in Miramar. During WW1 von Dannevill was investigated and then imprisoned on Matiu/Somes Island in Wellington harbour. Jared Davidson has also written about Hjelmar. The content in the recording covers the decades 1890s through to the 1930s. A brief summary of the recording is: In this recording titled "Dr Hjelmar von Dannevill," Julie Glamuzina discusses the unique and complex life of Dr Hjelmar von Dannevill. Recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand, and conducted by Gareth Watkins, it chronicles the life of von Dannevill, who arrived in New Zealand in 1911. The discussion spans across the timeline from the 1890s through to the 1930s, delving into von Dannevill's ambiguous identity, her work in a health home, and her imprisonment on Matiu/Somes Island during World War I due to suspicion of being a German spy. Von Dannevill was an extraordinary figure whose life was interwoven with issues of gender, clothing and dress reform, national identity during wartime, and health advocacy. The recording begins with an analysis of a photograph that captured von Dannevill’s somewhat masculine clothing style, juxtaposed with a skirt. The clothing style, seen as part of dress reform linked to feminism, was also connected to von Dannevill's attempt to commit suicide before arriving in New Zealand, which necessitated high collars to hide neck marks. The interview uncovers how von Dannevill, investigated by police and scrutinized over sexual identity and espionage suspicions, faced discrimination during a period of intense anti-German sentiment. Questions about von Dannevill’s gender were prompted not for personal classification but to nullify, control, and contain von Dannevill’s influence under the guise of national security. Despite examinations confirming her female identity, von Dannevill faced ongoing prejudice and her unique dress was only problematized once she were imprisoned. Glamuzina points out that von Dannevill was part of the late 19th-century feminist wave, advocating practical dress for women that didn't constrain their activities. The recording revisits von Dannevill's arrival in New Zealand, her supposed background, and the scrutiny she faced during World War I due to conflicting information about her nationality, exacerbated by her lack of documentation. Moreover, the interview discusses how von Dannevill and Edith Huntley, a medical doctor, established a health home in Wellington where von Dannevill worked, promoting healthier living. It also highlights that von Dannevill's significant relationships were exclusively with women and suggests the possibility of romantic and sexual connections, despite the absence of direct evidence of any relationships with men. Later in the recording, Glamuzina examines von Dannevill's internment experiences, including the solitary confinement among male prisoners, the potential mistreatment on Somes Island, and the advocacy from members of the public for her release. Ultimately, the interview sheds light on von Dannevill's resilience and continued commitment to health and social advocacy even after intense persecution in New Zealand. It underscores von Dannevill’s complex identity and contributions despite societal challenges, suggesting lessons to be learned from her perseverance and her role in broader historical contexts related to gender, health, and identity. The full transcription of the recording begins:  So the photograph in front of me is a photograph of the woman known as Doctor Hilmar von Del. The photograph shows her with a high neck, um, kind of shirt with a tie, a waistcoat buttoned up, Um, a jacket over the top of it. Um, at the time, it may have been described as more masculine. Um, then she has a skirt, which at the time would have been described as a fe A feminine. Um, she's got a nice pair of shoes on. Um, the photograph is a full frontal. Um, and then a side shot as well. It's a mug shot taken at the time that she was, um, arrested and put on to Somes Island in 1917. Um, I'm not sure whether the photograph was taken. Um, outside, Um, the home that she worked in the health home she worked in in or whether it was taken actually on Somes Island. I suspect on Somes Island, but I can't say I'm sure about that. And you're saying, uh, you're using the pronoun she and I'm wondering, um, I, I know that there was some discussion at the time whether, uh, this was a male or a female, correct. There was. And, um, So the first thing about that is that, um the question of whether she was a female or male was raised, Um, at the time that the police were investigating her, um, with a view to incarcerating her as a German spy. Um, she had been to the police in 1914. Um uh, sorry. A little bit before then. Actually, um, and she had been examined, I think, in 1911 by, um, a a nurse, Um, who declared that she was a female. Um, she was examined again in 1917 by a medical doctor. Um, one of her social contacts. Um, and, uh, he confirmed that she was a female. Um, it's in my view, it she's categorically female. There's no question about it. The questions around her sex were raised in the context of, um, the police and the authorities, wanting to nullify this woman to, you know, control her and to contain her and contain her influence. Um, they didn't raise a question about her clothing in 1911, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. Um, but suddenly, when she was, um, arrested in 1917, uh, then the media coverage sort of hyped up and talked about. You know, her, Manish, Um clothing, et cetera, et cetera. Um, um, for in my my point of view, um is that her clothing represented, um, the the women of the day who wanted, um who would be put in the class of dress reformists. Um, so feminists who wanted to, um, um, address in a more practical way. Um, in a way, in a way which suited, um, you know, their view of the world rather than the, um, very, um encumbering, um, dresses and skirts and, um, constraints. Um, in my view, kind of a, um um a Western view of foot binding is how I would put it. Um, it's not quite a good example, but, um, again, it was constraining clothes that constrained how women moved, how far they could go, what they could do, and so on. So it was part of the, um, late 19th century, um, feminist first wave of first wave of feminism, saying we we want to address how we can, how we want to. We don't want to be constrained. We want an education. We want access to money. We want the vote, We want, um, to be protected. Um, I think there also is another reason for her high collar, um, which hasn't been brought out. Um, but, um, I know she claimed that she had tried to commit suicide, um, in earlier, prior to her arrival in New Zealand in 1911. And, um, documentation indicates that she did have marks on her neck that could have been from a failed, um, hanging attempt. So, um, I imagine that she would not want to expose herself and expose her neck, Um, to the general public. So, uh, that's, uh I think you know, you've got to look at the detail you've got to look at. What? What do the documents say? So clearly she was a female. Clearly she was a She She There's no indication that she considered herself a man or wanted to be considered as a as a male whatsoever. None whatsoever. Um, you know, she had lots of interests and she had some political interests as well. So So where did she come from? And and how did she end up in Wellington? Good question. Where did she come from? Is, um, a question in itself, um, in Wellington in 19, you know, during World War One and she claimed that she was born in Denmark and that she, um she came here to, um, II. I think she came to settle down. She claimed that she came with her female friend. Um, her female friend was, uh, not in the best of health. And she claimed, um, that she had come to New Zealand because it would be, um, nice. Nicer for her friend. Um, and she might, you know, survive better in a better climate than England. Um, she might have chosen the north of New Zealand rather than Wellington, but if the weather was the problem, But, um, at that time, but, uh, that that's what she said. However, I think the reason she came, um, apart from wanting to settle somewhere, maybe to escape from something in in the UK. I don't know. Um, but I think the trigger for her arrival was to, um, work in the health home, which was being set up by another, um uh, by another woman in Wellington. Actually, a fully qualified medical doctor who wanted to set up a health home. Where do you get the staff from. And I believe that she knew this other woman prior. So So you've been able to track her back to the United Kingdom? Um, yes. Well, we know she was there because that's where she, um, you know, boarded the ship to come to New Zealand. So definitely she was there. Um, I believe her, um, statements that she travelled throughout Europe. Um, and that she travelled throughout the rest of the world. Um, and there's some documentation to support both of those statements. Um, she claimed while she claimed she was Danish, Um, it's unclear whether she actually was, um, she could have been Danish. Technically, um, because, um uh, in in 18 64 there was a war between, um, Prussia in Denmark, over the states of Schleswig Holstein, southern Denmark states. Um, so there was a dispute over who who should control those territories. Um, and in 18 64 those territories, um, fell into German hands rather than, you know, back into German hands. Not into, um uh, Danish. So And if she had been there in 18 64 then technically, you know, after the, uh, German victory, um, she would technically be a German. Um, she could be actually a German from, uh, a part of Germany rather than a demo. We don't actually know, but, um, the question around whether she was Danish or German came up because of World War One and the anti German, um, propaganda here and the regulations as they apply as they were applied to German people, um, in New Zealand at that time. So it would be better for her to have been Danish rather than German. And when the authorities, um, accused her or were told she was a German spy, then it would be better for her to say she was Danish. Whether she actually was or not is unclear, because we can't track it because we don't know what her real name is, actually. And And you you've referenced a number of times saying that she claimed this or she claimed that. Where are you getting these claims from? Is this from the police investigation? Yes. Um, when she was, um, put on to Somes Island in May 1917. Um, she was interrogated. So, um uh, and the interrogation was quite full. Um, and we have a record of that. So it was sort of documented in the files in national archives. And, um, you have the question of the M, the police, and then the military authorities. Um, they questioned her about her background. Um, What did Where did she come from? Who were her parents? Um what help? What was her education? Um, was she a doctor? Um, where did she get her degree? Did she have a degree? Where did she travel? Why did she travel? Because it looked very, very shaky. Um, you know, what is this woman doing travelling all around the world? Um, to some, um, British colon. You know, colonial, um, areas. Um, she speaks multiple languages. Um, she has no documentation. Um Hm. This sounds like a German spy who's going and gathering and, you know, information about, you know, possibly troop movements or you know, how many people are in a certain area? Um, or a certain location. So, um, you can see why they were asking those questions, but that is documented on the other side. Is, um there's also documentation, um, associated with travel movements. Um, there's documents that she signed. Um, there are, um, independent, noting about her, um, for example, about her neck, the injuries on her neck. Um, there are, um, uh, newspaper accounts, um, of her giving, Um, uh, recitals. Piano recitals of giving talks. Um, so there's sort of direct, um, direct evidence for, um, some of her claim that support some of her statements. Um, at the same time, we know that she told lies and and and was untruthful. And I think partly for self, probably mostly for self preservation or to protect others. Um, that she was associated with at that time. Um, the censorship in in during World War One was pretty, um, pretty detailed. And, um, Jared Davidson has written a book called Dead Letters, which is about the censorship and how that was, um, you know, carried out. Um, heaps of letters were just opened, You know, nothing was, um um, you know, private and and the censors and all of their minions read the letters. Um, if you were associated with German people, if you spoke German, um, if you were of German origin, then you were, you know, um, deemed suspicious. So, you know, since she was under investigation, um, she they asked her How did you know? Um, the the other the woman who owned the health home, Um, and she was very shifty about that. She said, Oh, I just arrived in 1911, and, um, we had a cup of tea, and we just hit it off and, you know, a week later, you know, she's staying with her. Um, so I think that is that's unlikely, because I know that she and the doctor were in the same location in India in the 18 nineties. Um, so And for some period. So I think it's most likely that they actually knew each other prior to 1911 and perhaps the doctor wanting to staff the health home. Um, perhaps she wrote to her and asked her, Do you know are you available? Can you come and help set up this health home? Um, so, I, I think that's more, you know, very possible. Um, So I did I answer your question? I'm not sure. Absolutely. I'm wondering. How is he the doctor received when she arrived in Wellington in 1911. She was received. Um, very well, um uh, the newspaper accounts, um, refer to her as, um, very intelligent um uh, a great, you know, a very competent musician, Um, able to play the piano Greig and list. And you can imagine the list list pieces are not simple. Um, but she played those pieces on the piano in the town hall. Um, in 1914. So in in the opera house, down here, Um um, to to a big audience. And, uh and they said, Oh, she played it very well. And, you know, with great vigour and and so on. And, um, and that she was most interesting and, um, could speak multiple languages and could comment on the topics of the day. And, um, you know, she was very well received as a very interesting person as well as a very educated person. And you were saying that she was employed in this health home? What was the health home and what were her duties the health home was situated in, And I believe it is part of the workshops. Um, so, uh, I think even before that, it was a girls home. Um, but, um, it it was, um, the health home, uh, was part of a property that had previously been a, um, entertainment um, park, which had fallen into bankruptcy. And so, um, doctor Edith Huntley purchased that property, including the house. So it was a a lovely old house. Two story, Um, and she wanted to set up an independent health initiative. Um, based on, um, um, the principles of, um a German physician called, um uh, Lehman. Doctor Lehman. Hence Lehman Health Home, Um, which caused them a problem when the world when the war broke out. Of course. German name German. You know, um, So, um uh, she wanted to just do something different, I think, and wanted to provide a facility. Um, she had mostly they were paying clients. Um, but she did have, um, as she put it, charity cases from time to time to time. Um, and they just wanted to do something different. It's not unusual. There were other private medical places in New Zealand as well as overseas. In Germany, there were lots. Um, so it was not not a weird thing to do. Um, they weren't It wasn't particularly liked by some in the medical in the medical establishment. Um uh, he duties were to, uh uh, she performed massages. Um, she took, um the clients to Lyle Bay to sea for fresh air exercise. Um, the things that we would say today are very common sense. Like good food. Good exercise. Um, Sunshine, sea air, um, water, um, you know, loose clothing. Um, which at that time when you see how they're all wrapped up? Um, I think, Oh, yeah, that's quite radical. Really. Um, so her her duties were to assist in that in that area. Um, And it I believe it was the her relationship with one of the clients at that home that triggered, um, the attention of the authorities, such that they wanted to put her away basically. And that first attention from the authorities was that before World War One or, um, the special attention around whether she was, you know, you know, what the hell was she doing in the health home? There, um, was 1916 through 1916 and, uh, came to culminated in her arrest in 1917. Um, when she first arrived in Wellington, she apparently went to the police herself and said that she wanted to let them know that she was a female and that she was here to, um investigate and look into their venereal diseases. And that's why she might be, um, frequenting brothels and such places. Um, and then she said, Well, she wanted to dress in a more, um, you know, practical way, because she wanted to go hunting and fishing. And, um, so she she gave them various, Um um, explanations. Um, and I think again, that seems weird. But if you think what was happening at the time, and not long before then was, um, the case of Amy Bock, um, which a lot of people know about, um And she had, um, masqueraded as a man, married a woman, um, and then was found to be, you know, a female. And, um, she deliberately did that to get access. Uh, I mean, there's multiple interpretations of, you know, what was Amy Bock doing and so on. But, um, there's no doubt about the fact that she was a fraudster, whatever else she was, but she certainly did try to extract money and stuff from people. She was released from jail in 1911. Um, so it could be that the authorities had in mind. And, um, Doctor Huntley would have known that too. And Perhaps she, um, advised hilma to go and say, Well, actually, um, even though I may be dressed like this, I'm not an Amy Bock. You know, um um, that's my suspicion. Um, 1914. Someone claimed that she was a German spy, and the authorities didn't pursue that, um, any further. And it was only in 19, um, in the latter part of 1916, that they seriously started to investigate him. And that was after, um, her relationship. Um, I think with the woman in the health home became more public. And the reason it became public was that, um, the woman, um, was the wife of a vicar, and she had come to the health home. Um, obviously, you know, with some anxiety, Um, she had suspected that her husband had been having an affair and her husband actually denied it, denied it. And then eventually, in 1916 admitted that he had had an affair, so she instituted divorce proceedings, and that was reported in the newspaper. Um, quite fully. And L gave evidence, and her evidence was, um, reported in truth. Um, as a consequence, um, the vicar made a complaint to the police. Um There was another party that made a complaint to the police and said, This woman should be looked into and, you know, and the goings on at the health home, um implied, but never said anything specific. Um, the result of those investigations were that a number of people, former clients of Helmand, the health home were actually very supportive of her and refused to talk to the police and said she did me a great service and she really helped me. And no, I'm not going to cooperate and so on. So that was insufficient. Um, you know, for them to put her away, um, you have to remember at the same time, um, the anti German propaganda was really, really vociferous, especially the anti um German, the women's anti German league. Some of those women were in L social circle. Um, they were very vociferous in, um, pursuing people who they thought were, um, potential spies and so on. And the authorities had to be seen to be action. You know, these, um, people who were supposed German spies. So I think there wasn't really any evidence that she was spying. There wasn't an evidence there wasn't any evidence that she was, um um a male masquerading as a female or a female masquerading as a male. They were. They cleared that up. Um, they then fell back on. Well, her papers, they were She had no papers when she came to New Zealand, so she can't prove who she really is. She can't prove that she's not a German. Um, So, um, they said that the the decision from the solicitor general was that she was to be placed onto Somes Island until she could, um, prove to them her bona fides. You know who she was and where she came from. Placing her on Somes Island was no help, because how could she prove it from there? She could only, you know, answer their questions. And she tried very hard to answer their questions and fill in the gaps and and so on. But at the same time, I you can tell from her statements that she was, um, still telling untruths and probably protecting other people. Just just, um, going back to that first physical examination that was. Did that happen in, like, 1911? Yes. Um, a nurse was called in to examine her and, um, the nurse said Yes, she's a female. And then apparently, according to the police, she came back later and said, Oh, no, I I'm not sure if she is because, you know, she went through elaborate preparations prior to the examination. I don't know what that was or what that could be knowing, um, later that she was examined in 19 6, 1917 by the medical doctor who then said, Yes, she's a female. So it's that that first examination was it, um, helma saying examine me? So she was actively going to the police saying I am a female. She was actively going to the police, saying, I'm a female. I want to dress like this. Um and, um and and what they asked was she prepared to undergo an examination and she said yes. Um, can I have, um, my doc Doctor Huntley, examine me? They said no. OK, another woman. OK, so she didn't say Please examine me. They suggested she be examined and she said, OK, um, in 1917, she had no choice. And I think that was, um it must have been very humiliating for her to be examined by someone that she had, um, you know, social interactions with and had been, you know, seen at social events and political events, um, in Wellington in the previous year, in the years prior to that, And then to have to, you know, submit to an examination by a male doctor at that time. Um, in that way, I think was pretty, um, pretty awful. And the relationships that she was, uh, potentially being accused of of having with other women. Was there any foundation to that? They didn't accuse her of having, um, a relationship with the woman. They, um they speculated that she had undue influence over the patients, especially women. That's how they put it. So they they couldn't, um and they didn't prove they never proved that she did anything criminal or wrong. Um, but they imprisoned her anyway on the island. And I think again you have to look at the surrounding circumstances. What was, you know, the World War one anti German hysteria. The activities of the anti, uh, of the anti um, the women's anti German league. Um, the complaint from the vicar after the divorce. Um, and he, um, suggested that, um perhaps she was after his wife's inheritance. So, uh, there was no evidence that she was after his wife's inheritance. Um, there was no evidence that she'd done anything wrong. Um, so that's part part an answer. Um, the other part of the answer would be, um, Was she involved, um, either romantically or sexually, with women. And, um, I think I would veer towards yes, rather than towards No. Because in her past, all of her connections and the the people that she said she interacted with on a personal level were female. And, um, she also when she left New Zealand, she left with this woman. Um, so on the other side, did she have any relationships with men? There's no evidence of that. But there is evidence of her having relationships of some kind with a number of women by her own account and by what we saw in 1916, 17. So, um, I think it is, um, reasonable to suggest that she had relationships with women, and it's reasonable to speculate, um, that, you know, did she have a sexual relationship with, um, the woman in, um, in the health home and and and the clients of the health home. Were they, um, solely female or No, it was. It was mixed. Um, there were, um uh, men and women. Males and females. Um, there were professional people. There were, um, some working class people. Um, there was a vicar, um, farmer farmer's wife. Um, um, yeah. So a range of people, um, you'd have to say most of them would have been I would have to have had money to pay to be there. And but, as I said before, they did take, as they put it, charity cases. So they took people for free as well. Um, uh, unfortunately for them, the it was not a going venture. So and by 1916, they were already having trouble paying bills. Um, so they had, um quite a number of clients, but they they couldn't make it a going concern. And from 1916, um, even a little bit before I forget. Now, Um, Doctor Huntley was trying to, um, sell it. How was she taken to the island? Was she arrested? Was she forcibly removed? Um, they didn't have to force for they did forcibly remove her as in, they said, Now you're coming with us. She didn't resist. Of course not, of course. But she didn't, Um she was, um, taken by the police, Um, escorted by, um, several police to the, um boat, which went out to the island. Um, put on the boat with a couple of police. They were told to watch her, you know, so that she didn't try and escape or, you know, kill herself, jump overboard, or, um, and then on the island, she was handed over to the military authorities, But, no, she didn't resist. Um, and, um I mean, where could she run? You know, where where would she where could she go? She's pretty, um, distinctive. And you were saying that some of the interrogation interviews happened on the island. So? So the investigation hadn't even been finished. It hadn't been finished. And she was, um, questioned, um, earlier by the police, Uh, and when? And that's correct. And, um, before she went to the island, they had already ascertained that, um, you know, she was female, so that took away one of their problems. As I said before, um, and there was no evidence of any wrongdoing. Um, that they could you know, you know. Put, uh uh, you know, direct evidence, Um, and yet they put her on the island. Anyway, she was the only woman on the island. There were several 100 people there. Men. Um and, um, yeah, just It's just a sort of you. You sort of wonder what the condition and what she must have thought going on to that island. Um, there's been a lot of, uh, complaints from the people who were incarcerated on the island. There were actually some prison actual prisoners of war. So German military, uh, navy naval people who had been captured. But most of the people were New Zealand. Uh, when you, you know, had been living in New Zealand for some time? Um, there was a German band that had been visiting, and they were put on there. They weren't doing anything. They were just playing music. But they were, you know, plunked on to the island. Um, and, um uh, so the the German prisoners of war said we're not being treated correctly. We have rights under the Geneva Convention. And, um, those complaints were, um, suppressed. Um, and and it wasn't until 1918 that the government actually held a commission of inquiry into the conditions on the island. So, um, and they found that the conditions were awful. Um, the the housing inhabitation was awful. The sanitation was awful. Um, the the guards, some of whom were criminals, were, um, brutal and had, uh, you know, prone to getting drunk and carrying on, Um, and some of them some of the prisoners have been beaten up, Um, and so on. So that's the kind of scenario she was placed in. Um, and I You know, I do wonder why there wasn't a file as to what she did on the island. You'd think the only woman you'd think they'd be writing it all down, and maybe they did. And then maybe they destroyed it. Or maybe something really bad happened to her for six weeks later, she was released, um, suffering from, as they put it, nervous exhaustion. So you can take that in two ways. Um, that could be the excuse of the authorities to take this woman off there so that they're not going to be liable or held up to scrutiny for anything bad that it might have happened. Um, on the other hand, perhaps she had been abused. So, um, you know, I, I we can't be sure, but I think going to an island, that's all. Men. The guards are not the best, Um, that there wasn't proper control over their behaviours. How do you not? How do you know that she wasn't abused? You were saying that, um, she's the only female on the island. Are you aware of any other females in New Zealand that experienced the same level of, um, I'm not sure what the right word is. Scrutiny or punishment. Um, you mean, at that time? Um, there were other women who were imprisoned or incarcerated, um, on island in Auckland. So there were. There were 22 internment islands in World War One. So island now, so island and, um, island and was more like a bit of a resort. Not quite because they were incarcerated, but, um, the men who were incarcerated, some of their wives were allowed to be there. Um, and it was a totally different story in Somes Island, So yeah, there were women who were on in those internment camps. Um, in terms of treatment of women, um, the general principle and the general information, Um, that I've seen in the historical and other accounts of treatment of women who, um, transgress, uh, that they are treated very harshly and more harshly. An exact example. I don't I can't say at the moment. That's exactly equivalent to helma and her circumstances. Um, you could look at the treatment of, say, Amy Bock, um, or other women who at the time who transgressed and who were criminal. Um, but, um, yeah, I think they were really harsh on women who stepped out of line. And so there are. There are no records of how she survived on the island. She did? No, no, not a single thing. There's only the interrogation. And yet for the male attorneys, there are There are records. There are the records. Um, there's records about, um, some of the prisoners who, um, uh, fell ill. And what happened or who, um, you know, um fought back against the guards or who had made complaints, and they sent letters out to to say this is what's happening and, you know, do something about it. Um, so, yeah, there are records and from the commission, there's, uh, documentation in the Royal com in the Commission of Inquiry of 1918 letters from, um, some of the people, um, some of the men who are on the island who complained So, um yeah, I. I just find it very unusual. We were suspicious. I'm really suspicious. Were there members of the public that were lobbying on the doctor's behalf? Yes. Yes, they were, um, and and that's why I say, um, when she was released six weeks later, um, I think, um, the authorities were kind of pushed to maybe go further than what they or the government. Sorry. The government was pushed to go further than maybe they wanted to, um, they didn't really like the activities of the anti um, the women's anti German league. Um, they thought they were a nuisance. And, um and that, um, you know, they'd gone too far. Um, but they had to be seen to be addressing. You know, these spies supposed spies? Um uh, So when she came off the island, uh, and they said she was suffering from a nervous exhaustion. It could have been an excuse that the government used to to show that yes, she had been there. Now they better get her off, because now she's, you know, ill. Um, or it could be that she had been abused and the and they thought, better get her off and not make a bigger problem about it. Um, so, yeah, I think you know, there's a number of ways you could interpret, because if she hadn't been taken off the island, would she have been there for the remainder of this? Yeah. Yeah, because, um, that's what happened to the other prisoners they were there for, um, you know, until the end of the war. And then at the end of the war, Um, those who could not, um, you know, who are designated alien IE? They weren't naturalised New Zealanders. Um, they they were told they should go back to Germany, and they actually, um, evacuated. Um, I think a couple of 100 people back to Germany. Some of them hadn't been there since a child. Some of them had been born here, but not born. But, uh, had been here quite some time and, um, didn't want to go back to a post war German state or a place away from their actual home, which was here. Um so it was really awful. New Zealand's treatment, Um, of the German people in World War One. So after, um, island, where did helma go? She was released into the care of, um, Doctor Huntley, um, and to the health home. And there were restrictions placed on her. She was supposed to remain within a certain distance of, um, Wellington. Um, the women's anti German league hounded her. So she was later seen, um, in Timaru. And so they quickly wrote, and what they have. What's she doing there? Why is this, um, German alien? Um, you know, what is she doing down there? Blah, blah. She's meant to remain in Wellington, Um, et cetera. So there was a lot of scrutiny on her. The anti German league seems to to to to have a very wide reach. Was it was it across the country? Yes. Yeah, they had, um, branches. Um, and, you know, not just in Wellington, but in other places. And they used them actively. Um uh, they they were really, um uh, they they focused on, um they're local. So they looked at, um, people here who held positions, Um, in government. Um, in, you know, in the military and question them and, uh, and question why they should have these jobs since they were German and then, you know, set about to get rid of these people from their positions. And, um and they did other things too, like they were, you know, on the hunt for Germans and, uh, a spy wherever they may find them. And, um, one of them made a made complaints to the police and said, there's someone, um, signalling possibly to a German submarine and cook straight and, uh, on at one point and the police went to investigate and found. Actually, it was a very windy night, and there were street lights, and there were trees, you know, flailing in the breeze. And actually, what was signal? Signalling was really just trees, um, flailing in the breeze in front of a street light. And, uh So, um, um, they they were instrumental in, um, pursuing, um, a number of people who had German background and, um trying to get them out of their jobs. Um, yeah. So So So what actually happened to Helmer after that? So she, uh, as as as we said before she was released into the care of of, uh, doctor Huntley. Um, so she remained in New Zealand until 1919. And, uh, in 1919, she left for, um, Sidney with, uh, the woman from the health home, Uh, the ex ex client, um, they went to Sydney. They were there for a year, and then after a year, they went to San Francisco. And that's where she remained until her death in 1930 in San Francisco. Um, and while she was, uh, so she tried to make a living there by being an alternative health practitioner. Um, so, um, but she she she really didn't, um, have any wealth at the end of her life. She was very in very dire circumstances at the end of her life. And how would you describe that relationship with that other woman? Well, it was obviously a close one, and it was a caring one. The woman had Children, and the Children, um, wrote letters, um, to very warm, um, you know, letters which indicate she was very kind and, um, quite engaged. Um, with that family, Um, with the woman and her Children, Her Children went to the U as well. Um, and, uh, and she she they lived, um uh, in the same place at one stage and in in different places. So, um, my speculation is that it was a, um a romantic and sexual relationship. That's my speculation. Um, and based on her previous, um, history of relationships with women based on the close relationship at the time based on, um, the fact that she, um, you know, was clearly close with the woman and her Children, Um, and that she went with her and that they lived together and so on. So at, at the very least, you can say it was close and warm. Have you tried contacting any relatives? No, I haven't, but, um yeah, good point. Good to it would be good to find, um, more information. I know that, um, her, um the other woman lived in the US for the rest of her life. And her Children, um, came there as well. Um, so potentially there's more information there that, you know, could someone else could reveal I was more interested in, Um hi is, uh perhaps, uh, as I've put it, a woman of her times. And see here is an interesting woman who did some very interesting things, and, um, they sound very outlandish. But when you think of other women who were doing similar things at the time, then maybe it's not so outlandish. And, um, there's no doubt she was very well educated was a good musician, um, had travelled extensively, um, had interests in health and in promotion of, um, the health of women and Children. Um, you can see that from her activities here in Wellington, you can see that she was interested in general health and wanting to, you know, do good in the world. Um, from her activities later, um, that her interests were very female oriented. Um, and that, um, and that there was throughout the world at that time, um, communities of similar interest and of similar activities. So, yeah. Is there any, um, uh, evidence or or or or anything documented that, um, that shows how how I responded to the events in New Zealand. How How? How did she find it? Yeah, um, there is, um, she at the outbreak. So, for example, at the outbreak of World War One, she went to great lengths to show that she was not a German supporter, that she was a supporter of the British. Um, uh, she was involved in raising funds for the war. Uh, for, you know, on the, um, uh, British New Zealand side. Um, she, um And there were multiple events like that. Um, so there was the war Belgian War Relief fund, so she contributed money. The home contributed money. Um, in relation to, um, the status of women and Children at the time. She, um um, agitated along with Doctor Huntley and other, um, women doctors at the time, um, to improve the lot of women and Children. Um, they Huntley was a foundation member of the Society for the Protection of Women and Children. Von Dave was involved in that as well. She was involved and gave speeches and talks to the Moral and Physical Health Society, which was similarly wanting to improve, you know, conditions for women and Children. And, um uh, and she was a member of the Pioneer Club. So she responded to her situation here by wanting to become part of the social world there, the social world here, the social elite, um, at the same time as wanting to help those less, you know, not so well off. Um, so, yeah, I think it shows that she had multiple interests. Um, that she wanted to do good. She wanted to, um, settle. And, um, I think the fact that she I mean, maybe she didn't anticipate it, But the fact that she was prepared to give evidence in the divorce case, perhaps that indicated that she felt secure enough in her position here. Um, perhaps she was subpoenaed. I'm not sure, But in any event, she did give evidence, and it was pretty clear evidence. So I think that indicates that she was, um, sufficiently embedded here and felt sufficiently comfortable to think that that would not cause her a problem. In researching, um, the doctor, you've had to unpick up a whole lot of, um, truths and and maybe not so truthful things. How have you gone about researching this? First of all, we have the words of the person themselves. So we've got lma's words. Um, then you have to think those words were given in the context of an interrogation. So she's going to be cagey about some things and not so cagey about other things. So How do you, um, decide which bits you think are being Which, um, which of her words are being cagey and which are words that are truthful. Um, So the next thing then for me was to look at other other sources. So corroboration, external corroboration of the things that she, um, mentioned, um, Or claimed. So, for example, she claimed she'd been a journalist. So in 19 05. Is it possible for a woman to have been a journalist in 19? 05? Well, yes. Um, was it possible to have done the things that she claimed she'd done in 19? 05 as a woman? Yes, they were. Because there's evidence of other women doing similar. So, um yeah, so that's looking at, um, corroborating evidence, either direct or contextual. So, um, um, it's direct evidence that she arrived here in 1911 February. It's direct evidence that she had, um, physical injuries on her neck. It's direct evidence that she, um um is a female. It's direct evidence that she was in similar India in, uh, in the 18 nineties. It's direct. Um, that Doctor Huntley was there overlapping. They were there at an overlapping time. So that's that's direct. Um, it's indirect that, um there were women travellers in the world. Um, she claimed to be a, uh uh, travel to lots of places. It is direct that she came here. It's direct that she was on a ship, Um, on the coast of Africa. Um, because we have a shipping record. Uh, about that, um, so Therefore, if she was on that ship, is it possible that she could have been in in, um, Japan? Is it possible she could have gone to America? And I think yes. So, um, is it possible that she was researching venereal diseases as she claimed other women at the Well, there was a lot of interest in venereal disease and a cure for in the 19th century. And there were lots of people men and women who were searching for, um um, cures for that disease. Um, there's an example of a woman travelling. Um, I think it's in Alaska searching for a cure for some disease. I can't remember. Um, but, you know, this was not She's not the only person doing this as a thing. So then you think OK, it's possible. Um, I can't prove that she, um there's no direct evidence of her going into a brothel, um, to ask about the neal diseases or to, um, talk about venereal diseases with doctors other than her own words. And since they were her own words And since some of her words are lies, um, do I believe that or not? So, um, I think you know, again, if there's context that shows it's possible, then I would tend to think that's possible. Because, in fact, during the interrogation, it would be better for her to have said she hadn't been to so many places. It would be better for her to lie about that, but she didn't. Um, the other thing is that, um, one of the people, um, interrogating her was a military person, a military, uh, an English military major who had been in India, and he questioned her about particular places and locations in in India that he knew about, and she claimed to have been at, So um and he was, um, satisfied. So you couldn't make it up. You know, she she could have Did someone tell her about these places, but she didn't know what questions she would be asked. So she gave her answers based on her experience. And I think those things you can believe, So that's kind of an example of a direct or a corroborating, Um, kind of, um, connection does that. Does that make sense? It does. But I'm also wondering why then can't you necessarily trace her back prior to say the United Kingdom? Why is she using a different name? Because we don't know what her real name is Because I can't find, um, von Deville anywhere. And, um uh, you can see. Um, actually, you can see, um, Danny von Daville in her movements. Um, but prior to, um, you know, prior to her arrival in in New Zealand, there's one evidence of Danny that is her. Because, um, we can say that it is because, uh, her signature was on a on the document, and it's equal to her signature. Um, um, you know that she, uh, documents she signed here, and we know that she signed them because the police said or the military authorities said so, um, we know that, um, that's the case. But prior to that, um, we we don't know that that was actually her name, and she she said that those were her parents names, but they don't can't be traced, so it's likely that that's a made up name. And if that's a made up name, then what's her real name? Um, she claimed to have used a name when she was studying to be a doctor, and she said, Oh, I made that name up. But then maybe that's her real name. But it's such a common name you would never know. So, um, hopefully someone might be able to trace it, but I wasn't able to. And in the end, I thought it wasn't. Um it wasn't that important. Like her real name. It's of interest. But, um, in terms of what does her like What? Um, the comments about her life and what kind of life she led. And, um, how did she represent? Did she represent others of her time? Um, I don't think it's, um, truly important. Just thinking in terms of her, um, the investigation against her and also her internment. Do you think, um, helma was persecuted or was it a justified, um, an investigation and internment, or was she just unlucky? Hm. Um probably all of them. Um, I think at the time, anyone who, um, was suspected of being a germ, even a German sympathiser. Even someone saying I think the German people are a great race. That was enough to get you investigated. So in that context, then it's you can see it's justified It, um uh, in the sense that they had, um the authorities investigated anyone of suspicion, and it didn't take much for them to be suspicious. So in that sense, she's one of a number. And, um, Jared Davidson's book, um, indicates there were other people who were investigated, um, possibly for their political views, not because they were real spies, but the war regulations gave the authorities licence to clamped down on, um, all sorts of transgressions and, um, you know, non. Um, you know, people who didn't toe the line and she was one of them, um, you asked, Was was it justified? So, on that basis, yes, But on the basis of did she do anything wrong? And was she really a spy? I don't think so. And was she persecuted? Yes. I think she was hounded definitely after that. And I think they um, put undue, um, attention on her and in my opinion, because of her relationship with the woman in the health home. So what do you think? We can learn from the doctor's life And from what happened to her here in New Zealand, I think, um, looking at her as a person, Um, I think she was a survivor. She obviously had, um, a number of challenges Prior to her arrival in New Zealand, She had challenges here, and then she had challenges in the US in San Francisco. And, um, she she kept on, you know, she didn't let it stop her. Um, you'd think after what happened to her in New Zealand, she'd just go and try and be obscure, but no, she went and continued trying to do, um, useful work. Um, so I think that's, you know, she's very brave, and I think that's, um, good to see. I think that's one thing we can learn. You just keep going. You don't let them, you know, crush you. Um, I think, um, in terms of the wider context, I think we can see her as a woman of her time. And we look at the um, things that she was trying to be different about. Um, so, pushing the rights of women and Children and the and the position of women and Children at that time, Um, trying to make a difference, Um, in the face of, you know, quite conservative and hostile. Um um, dominant society. Um, I think we need to look at, um, the British colonial society that was in place here And who did it suppress and who did it enable. And, um, look at how they just sort of took over the country. You know, I, um Oh, it it's now a British colony. You know, there were people here. How do they you know, um and so look at now, when people are saying this was our land, you need to compensate us. Of course. Um, look at, um uh how the German the people were treated who didn't fit in or were suddenly objectified. So, um, Germans were objectified. Um, I think I I didn't show you, but there was, uh, you know, documented evidence and pictures of, um, German businesses, their windows broken mob rule. Um, you know, now, now it's you know, this group is not OK. And the authorities then say this group is not OK. And then you have these, um um societies that whip up the frenzy around it, um, rooting out the hog is, you know, one of the, um, newspaper headlines rooting out the hun hog. Um, so if you're a German, uh, you know, you're gonna feel really, really bad. Um, I think we can learn from that. And just finally, if you had a chance to meet, uh, what what would you want to know? What would you ask? I'd say, Who are you? Really? I'd say What? How did you go about it when you were investigating the venereal disease? You know, how did you meet the people you met? How did you meet famous musicians? How did you come to meet them? How did you come to um um you know, get involved with this work? Um, how did you, um how did you experience the colonial elite in Wellington at the time? What did you think of it? Um how did you feel on Somes Island? How did you feel when you escaped? How did you, um how did you manage to survive all this time? and I'd ask about the women that she had been involved in with. And, uh, I'd also ask, Did you get into any trouble with the police after you in England or in Europe? You know, um was she, um Was she a political, um, escape, you know. So, yeah, I'd have lots of questions to ask her, and I'd say, Oh, what did you think about what I wrote? The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1890s ; 1910s ; 1920s ; 1930s ; Africa ; Amy Bock ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Archives New Zealand ; Auckland ; Australia ; Denmark ; Edith Huntley ; Europe ; Events ; Geneva ; German ; Germany ; Hjelmar von Dannevill ; India ; Ireland ; Japan ; Jared Davidson ; Julie Glamuzina ; Katherine Early ; Lahmann Health Home ; London ; Mary Bond ; Matiu / Somes Island ; Miramar ; Muslims ; People ; Rev Edward Bond ; Royal Commission of Inquiry (1918) ; STI ; San Francisco ; Stuff ; Sydney ; The Opera House ; Timaru ; United Kingdom ; United States of America ; Wellington ; Women's Anti-German League ; World War 1 ; access ; activities ; allies ; anxiety ; archives ; arrest ; audience ; binding ; boat ; broken ; brothels ; censorship ; charity ; children ; choice ; class ; clothing ; colonisation ; connections ; conservative ; death ; difference ; divorce ; dog ; dominant ; dress reformist ; education ; entertainment ; escape ; examination ; exercise ; face ; family ; fear ; feminism ; fishing ; food ; fraud ; gods ; government ; health ; health care ; health home ; hell ; helmet ; history ; hit ; housing ; hug ; hunting ; imprisonment ; inheritance ; integration ; journalism ; lesbian ; lobbying ; masculine ; massage ; media ; military ; music ; navy ; nervous exhaustion ; nurse ; opera ; other ; parents ; piano ; police ; preservation ; prison ; prisoners ; pronouns ; propaganda ; punishment ; race ; records ; relationships ; romantic ; scene ; self preservation ; shoes ; skirt ; social ; spying ; straight ; suffering ; suicide ; support ; survivor ; the other side ; time ; top ; travel ; truth ; vicar ; vote ; water ; women ; work ; working class ; writing. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/dr_hjelmar_von_dannevill.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089875. Julie Glamuzina also features audibly in the following recordings: "Julie Glamuzina - Creating Our Stories", "Julie Glamuzina - homosexual law reform", "Iris Florence Peter Williams" and "Larger Than Life Stories - Same Same But Different". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.