The title of this recording is "Jack Trolove - Creating Our Stories". It is described as: Jack Trolove talks about organising a variety of community-based events. It was recorded in Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 6th March 2012. Jack Trolove is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 1 hour and 25 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Jack talks about organising a variety of community-based events, including Kazam! a national takatapui, queer and trans youth hui held in 2011. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: In a comprehensive interview hosted by Gareth Watkins and recorded in Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand, Jack Trolove discussed the intricacies and personal experiences surrounding community organising and event management, particularly focusing on work with queer, trans, and intersex youth. Trolove elaborated on a background rooted in a rural, intergenerational upbringing, and a professional journey that shifted from an initial focus on art to engaging with social justice initiatives. Key to the conversation was the organising of Kazam!, a prominent national takatapui, queer, and trans youth hui (assembly) held in 2011, among other community-based events in the 2010s. Trolove emphasized the importance of being deeply passionate about a project and the essential nature of designing a space that caters to the specific aims and desired outcomes of an event. It was noted that grand visions sometimes need to be tailored down to create more focused and intimate gatherings that facilitate deeper discussions. The speaker shared the lessons learned from organising events that were either too large to yield the intended conversations or lacked the specificity needed to be truly impactful. A pivotal aspect of community organising, as described by Trolove, involved engaging directly with youth groups across the country. This entailed visiting these groups in person to share the opportunities, drumming up excitement, and running exercises that encouraged young people to envision and contribute to the fruition of their collective goals. The approach underscored the significance of countering potential feelings of isolation by fostering connections, providing support through direct communication such as text messages or social media platforms like Facebook, and helping youth recognise that their skills matched their aspirations. Discussing the aftermath of large-scale events, Trolove highlighted recognising and accepting the emotional come-down as part of the process. It was mentioned that this period could be countered by expecting it, planning for downtime, and nurturing oneself so as to benefit from the positive afterglow of an event's experience. It was also addressed how organisers needed to find a balance between the exhilaration of the project and prevention of burnout. Trolove's experiences revealed important insights into working with youths, the necessity to be authentic and receptive as a facilitator, and the considerations to be made when applying for funding for community-based projects. The conversation underscored the need for strategic planning, careful use of language depending on the audience (whether participants or funders), and ensuring that projects were realistically scalable. In terms of broader messages conveyed, the interview stressed that organisers should not shy away from reaching out for support, developing robust systems for communication, mentoring, and outreach that align with the needs and capacities of the young people involved. Ultimately, Trolove's narrative captured the essence of creating spaces that empower youth, encourage genuine connections, and nurture the wealth of ideas and resourcefulness inherent in queer and trans communities. The full transcription of the recording begins:  So, Yeah, my name is Jack. And, um, I've, um Yeah, my background is Hm. Um, grew up in a small town in North Canterbury. Uh, it was brought up by my Nana and great Auntie, um, along with the rest of the family. So kind of big, intergenerational, rural upbringing. Um, and, um, I trained as a, um, as a painter as an artist. So initially, my that was kind of, um, my world and, um, yeah, still have an art practise, but kind of, uh, that intersects now with lots of other sort of social justice related projects. Or, um, I think that some of the first organising I did was probably community arts projects. Um, working with, you know, various, uh, groups who experience being marginalised for whatever reason. Um, and using, um, kind of creative languages or visual languages to challenge stigma and assumptions around some of that stuff. Um, and yeah, maybe some of the other organising was, um, you know, used to tie myself to choppers and things like that. The, um when the west coasts were getting logged. That was sort of probably my first big organising experience with, um, with some of those kind of campaigns. And, um yeah, and, um but yeah, I guess since then, probably. Um yeah, just lots of, um, been involved with organising lots of, um and, um actually, a couple of years ago, um, worked with Madeleine McNamara to, um, create a We sort of did a show. And then, um, as well did organised a hoe for people from all over the country. Um, to come together for a weekend to kind of talk about how we use, um, creative practise to, um, explore our relationships to colonisation. And, um, it was called whiteness, whiteness, creative disorders and hope so, Yeah, kind of looking lots at, um, responsibility. And but, you know, kind of yeah, through creative lens, blah, blah, blah, all that sort of stuff. So would you say a lot of the events that you've been a part of in organising have been more at the community end rather than at the kind of professional? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And the the recent project that I worked on, um, which was the so that was, um, a a national youth for, um queer trans intersex MVPFF young people from all over the country um, and that was the first project that where I was able to come in and it was already there was already sort of funding to to run it. So it was really exciting because there was lots of scope. Yeah, and then I didn't have to do all of that myself as well. Yeah, well, I'm wondering if we can have a look at maybe a couple of your different events that you've organised. Um, because I'm assuming that running a community driven event is quite different from something that somebody's paying you to organise. Could you tell me what, uh what What do you think? Some of the key principles of running, um, a community based event are, um I think the key thing is for me is you know, you just got to be super passionate about about the project or about what you're wanting to do, because, um, it's so much work. Yeah, and and so, you know, for me, I really have to be invested in wanting that space. Yeah, um, one of the biggest lessons for me, um, through the stuff that I've organised has been thinking about, um actually kind of tailoring the sort of space that you want to work for, whatever it is that you're doing. So, um, for example, the the that I talked about before, um, or the gathering the, um, white mess project that ended up being really huge. So we had people speakers. I think we had, like, 60 speakers from all over the country. It was amazing, Um, but and it was really great. But actually, at the end of the day, we didn't get what we really wanted out of it. Which was a kind of, um, you know, really, really specific conversations around some of those problematic creative issues. Yeah, and, um, because it was so big, we ended up hosting this What I think was this really choice thing for people and was probably, you know, cool community development. Lots of really great stuff came out of it, and there was some really kind of, you know, good, volatile, dynamic stuff and conversation. But, um, but I But in the end, it wasn't. We didn't kind of get what what we wanted. Yeah, because it was too big. And, you know, in the end, we probably what we should have done is or what we could do for a parallel thing would be to kind of just maybe invite the 10 people that we really want to pick their brains and and, you know, host the kind of get together and, um, bring some really exciting stuff in. So people want to be there and and look after that space. Really? Well, you know, So I guess one of the things that I've been learning is, um, you can, you know, you can kind of host a gathering about anything. And no doubt there will be really awesome stuff come out of it. But it's so much work that to make it really worthwhile and to get the most out of it, it's really important to be really specific about why you're doing it and what your dream situation is to come out of it. Yeah, or what? Those What? What connections? You really, really want to be building? Yeah, those kind of questions, like right at the front of before you organise anything like, you know, um, what do you want out of it? Who? Who are you aiming at? Are those kind of conversations, like, hard to kind of pin down Is it hard to work out why you're actually doing something? It depends. No, I don't think so. Because I think usually the only reason you would be organise something and invest that much sort of time and energy is if something that you really want. So, um, for me and all of my experiences, of all the projects that I've worked on, it's It's pretty much always been because there's something that I want to participate in and it doesn't exist. So the only way to kind of get that happening is to create the space where yeah and I and I think that's one of the amazing things about being in A It is because it's small you. Actually, that happens a lot more like friends of mine overseas that I talk to that that's not always the case because there's something kind of closely enough related to what they're interested in that they can go along to or whatever, or it feels too huge to organise stuff. But I think you know, here it's quite amazing that that we organise whatever we want to do. You know, it's great. Yeah, so looking back to whiteness, white mess What would you have done differently? I think that what we could have done is, um we probably had we managed to not get so excited about all of these amazing people coming together. Um, I think we could have literally just sat down and brainstormed exactly what we wanted that space to be and then tried to work out the most. I know it sounds funny, but almost the most limited way of doing that. You know what? What are the least components that we need to bring together And what do we want the feel of the space to be? What do we want? Um, yeah, I guess. What kind of atmosphere do we want to create and being really realistic about, um, the kind of numbers around that. So we actually wanted really in-depth discussion and space that that there could be lots of challenge, and, um, but also that wouldn't kind of get out of control, and I think to be really realistic about that, that's actually a small group. It's a kind of small group discussion, not a big national gathering with lots of speakers, so Yeah, but you know that? That said, having done that there was all of this kind of amazing stuff that came out of that, and and the feedback was that people had been really hanging out for that kind of space. So, you know, perhaps we could have done a really kind of small work shopping thing and then, um and then just had a public forum for a day and got some really amazing speakers in or something. Yeah. Why did you refer to saying you wanted to kind of maybe reduce it down to the smallest thing that you could do? Yeah. OK, so I think it's because, um what I'm realising I I have a lot of experience of doing is feeling like, um and I guess maybe it's some of that sort of social conscience stuff of of, um, wanting to do something good or beneficial or whatever and ending up kind of just making huge jobs for yourself for no real reason other than, you know, it's really good that people are talking about this stuff. So I guess, um, yeah, I guess I'm just talking about trying to be a little bit more strategic about, um yeah, about where I put my energy and and and the kind of form that you're looking to create, Not just not just content, not just themes. Um, yeah, I guess I'm I'm getting less interested in kind of really huge. Um, I'm less interested in kind of lots of speakers, speaking about lots of stuff and really vague question and answers afterwards and much more interested in kind of, um, I guess more intimate, kind of in depth dialogue that I feel like can then be useful for people you know, or that we can kind of create tools out of to achieve what we want to achieve. Yeah, you've mentioned a number of times. Um, Spaces. And, um, I'm wondering if you can talk to me About what? What do you mean by space? When you create a space, What? What does that mean for you? I guess it's about, um, yeah, about creating a situation that's different to kind of everyday life, Um, and the yeah, and the kind of ritualised way that we do that. So it's, um it's not just about getting people in a room together. It's about thinking about the dynamics about, um how? Yeah, I guess it's I don't know atmosphere, all of that kind of stuff. Like how, How literally. There's a place to kind of commune together about something, um, and or to work together or whatever it is. And does that kind of get what you're getting at or not so much? No. Absolutely. I I'm interested in that idea and also the physical space, how and how you actually bring people together and working out the right space. Um, but also the space in terms of people's clear thinking, a safe space in terms of, you know, if people can say stuff in that environment. Um, I think in terms of physical space, that's often just because most of the projects I've worked on there's not actually been any funding or next to no funding. So it's just been lots about finding a room that we can fit the amount of people and that we can fit in and, you know, making sure that there's a kitchen near enough so we can cater or whatever. And sometimes that's been just, you know, bringing a barbecue inside or doing lots of baking. Or, you know, it's kind of yeah, I think it's quite exciting. The ways that you can feed lots of people. Um, but maybe, actually, maybe if we talk about the youth, Um, So the physical space that we used there was, um, a place called Carry Park, which is a, um it's actually a big Christian camp out in Henderson Valley just out of Auckland. Um, we had about 200 young people there for four days and nights. Um, so it was kind of it was quite interesting using that space, too, because it was, um, you know, there was kind of lots of, um, Bible phrases and stuff all over the walls and, you know, like, spatially it was quite interesting to kind of interact in that environment, and it was really cool. It was really interesting discussions because because the was totally you run and youth lead. Um, all the decisions, big decisions, basically were made by the young people. And, um, so there was really interesting cold debate around what to do about that, you know, because obviously there's lots of kind of, um, lots of those young people did identify as Christian, and so maybe that worked for them. And then there was lots that that was really triggering for them. And, um, you know me included. I was like, Ah, really wanting to make it. You know, obviously you have positivity around that stuff, but also about all the other kind of faiths that weren't represented there. And, um, so, yeah, there was a really cool conversation around. You know? Do we cover them up and put put some other posters up? Or do we, um, just add some, you know, add some phrases from, um, you know, the Koran and, you know, buddhist texts and all these kind of other things to or or random non denominational comments on spirituality. Or, you know, um, and it was really interesting in the end that the young people were like, No, don't cover them up. That's that's, you know, And the reason reason for doing that was that, um they felt that the the space was, you know, physically the house was, um, a Christian space and that it would be disrespectful to the people whose house that was to Yeah. So I thought it was really interesting. And, you know, that was a really cool learning for me. Yeah. Hm. The physical space out there was amazing because it was, you know, all surrounded by native Bush and had a really cool kitchen and lots of kind of little cabin rooms and things like that, which worked really well about 15 young people per room. But, um, it was we ended up getting that space in the end because we had so little time to, um you know, But when I came on board, the had to happen within six months, and so that was That's massive, I mean, in, you know, in an alternative situation that wouldn't be such a big deal. But when you're running a youth run, you've led, which means literally hosting workshops with young people all over the country to find out how they want to do it, what they want to do, all of that kind of stuff, that kind of that the super high engagement takes a lot of time and then working with young people who have all these phenomenal skills and ideas and, you know, amazing stuff. Um, but, uh, just not, you know, they just they just organise things differently and that the level of resource is really different. They don't necessarily have cars or jobs or or phones that they can use or, you know, all of that sort of stuff. So the the the kind of the expectation of what happens in that time expands and the resources to do it. So you know that I guess that was a really big challenge there, But, um, also, what it meant was that by the time I'd come on board and and got to looking for a venue, most of the, um, local that were big enough were booked And that all of them, um and so that was kind of, you know, initially it felt like a real shame because it was I think it's so, you know, it's so powerful that all being in a room together and sleeping under one roof And you know, all of the kind of stuff that goes on with when when people are held together in that way is really different. And so I was kind of sad that we were getting this other site initially, but, um but yeah, in the end, it actually worked really, really well, and it just had a whole lot of other kind of positives that I hadn't foreseen. Yeah, and and we still managed to. Well, we, um uh, people like Elizabeth worked with us to, um, to make the space work in terms of and, um basic and all of that kind of stuff, so we still could hold the space properly, but yeah, it just wasn't a it was a a huge gym and a whole lot of cabins. Yeah, I'm wondering if we can just rewind and and basically take me through the whole process of, um, you coming on board with Rainbow Youth and and travelling around the country and and eliciting those kind of responses from youth. Can you take me through how that all kind of happened? Um, when I came on board, there was, um, the board who so Rainbow Youth is a youth run youth led organisation, and all of the, um, board, the governance is is totally youth governance. So from there, some, um, uh, non youth supporters and mentors as part of that board. But, um, the so Yeah, everybody there is under 27 and, um, they their part of their focus was, um, was working out how to support the development of kind of national networks. Um, and because um, intersex communities around the country, Uh, totally, financially not resourced. Super rich and in lots of other ways. But, um, not in terms of finances. So, um, lots of that kind of networking is really tricky. Um, and so they wanted to focus on being able to, um, yeah, host. Another national after out there, Um, and that rain you had committed to doing another one. And, um So when the dancing with the stars money came through that was able to go towards kind of a national focus, Um, which was really exciting. So basically, um, the first step in that was to host this hoe. So when I came on board, uh, yeah, that's all that I knew that they wanted to do that. Um, but yeah, the real change for me was working in a youth led youth run model. Um, I worked in lots of kind of other inclusive models, particularly around mental health stuff in the past, but, um, and some disability stuff, but this was, you know, different again. And, um, so the yeah, the challenge was working out how to genuinely, um, support a youth led youth run event when everybody wasn't in the same town or couldn't necessarily come together to organise stuff in the way that I, you know, in a linear way that I was thinking of. And so, um what what we did initially was, um, pulled together a, um, a youth advisory crew. So that was that was based up here in Auckland. Um, and we met once every I think, two or three weeks. And it was just, um a crew of really staunch, awesome young people who who got on board with the vision and and and kind of basically, I just checked in with them every couple of weeks and, um was sort of like, This is where I'm thinking of going with it. This is how I'm doing it. And they would, you know, pull it apart or go. Yeah, awesome. Or we'd kind of revisit stuff. So, yeah, just so they were driving the direction, but not having to do the leg work. When you say youth, what kind of age? Um, so anybody under 27? Yeah. So between whatever age and 27 I think the youngest person that we ended up having at the was 10. Yeah, um, with a parent and then 13 year old on their own. Yeah, so? And in terms of the advisory group, what kind of age range? Um, they were probably most of them would be early twenties. I'd say some a little bit later. Twenties? Yeah. And can you describe some of the ideas that you pitched to them That kind of flew? And some that kind of Yeah. So basically, when we were, um, developing out the of how we wanted to work and I guess what the have, how we support awesome behaviour, you know, or interaction and communication and basically, how our A a thing that we used to deal with stuff when it goes wrong as well, you know. So, um, so we created a and, um that had I think we had about 15 kind of points of which were really sort of strength based. So it was around things like, um uh, using language that doesn't assume anything about anybody's, you know, gender, family, blah, blah, blah. All of that kind of stuff. Um, using language that makes us feel awesome. Not stink. Um, really, really kind of simple things, but they were all, um, key points that if if stuff went wrong, we could go back to, you know, So the young people could kind of go, Hey, we need to have a talk about that. This doesn't work with, you know, how does how does what had just happened fit in with the language that we're committed to using with each other and, you know, making more space, not less space and all of that sort of stuff. So it was basically just creating a tool, Um, for the young people to use to kind of, Yeah, keep the environment working. And and, you know, I think safe is a really weird term, but, um, to keep it good, it just ain't even weirder too. Yeah, So that kind of discussion that happened right at the outset in terms of that, that probably happened as we went through. You know, I was just trying to think of an example of one of the things that a workshop with that advisory crew. Um and I mean, they would have been awesome conversations to record, actually, you know, um, because yeah, it was great. It was It was really cool how we kind of ended up using lots of the, um, the tools that we were developing for the in order to even have those conversations and work out how we have them. And yeah, so it was interesting. Can you remember anything else from that list of things that that that they kind of came up with? Or did you have a predefined list that you went in with saying What about this? This and this guys, or did they come up with all those 15 just by themselves? Well, I encourage people to come up with stuff and, you know, just flip through an email with a couple of ideas or Facebook or just call or whatever, but actually, everybody was really busy. So in the end, it didn't really happen. So I just kind of hashed out what I thought, you know, You know, sometimes if you've got something to start with, you can butcher it and it's good. You just get going. So, um yes. So I just came up with, you know, 10 or 15 to start with, and then, um, everybody just got involved, and we reworked them from meeting with the advisory group on a on a semi regular basis. What? How How did it progress from that? Um, Well, because there was so little time. Um, it just had to get going. We just had to get going. So basically, um, we set up the all the young people set themselves up as an advisory crew. And then, um, and then there was literally practicalities of kind of booking spaces, stuff like that, um, starting to get the word out about what we were doing. And, um and then, yeah, it was literally just kind of, um, bringing up or skyping or facebooking or whatever through the various networks to connect with, um who basically, whoever I could connect with all over the country, particularly the the kind of bigger groups where there's all the slightly more formal groups. So places like, um uh, Waikato, Wellington Um, Christchurch, Dunedin, um, and then other smaller places or not smaller places, but places where there's smaller kind of groups. Um, so basically, just kind of getting the word out through all of our networks and through everybody's networks that, um and and once the young people heard that there was going to be a who they were totally behind it. and excited. And so it was really, really choice. Um, but then also, you know, huge issues around fundraise to get people to come. And, um luckily, that, um, from the with the last of the dancing with the stars money, that was enough to kind of rent the venue and and host the space. And we could support some people with flights and things like that. But, um, yeah, lots of you know, there was, uh, you know, a young woman selling homemade fudge in Dunedin to make money to come up and stuff like that. It was really choice and and, you know, and there was in Christchurch, there was, um after the earthquake, there was, um, some funding that came up for some of those young people. So they were able to use some of that and things like that, but yeah. So the next stage was, um, basically connecting with everybody and trying to make times that I could go and meet when the youth groups were happening or whatever to let them know. So, basically, it was like, Hey, we we're wanting to host this, and, um and where we're at is that, um there's We've got a really beautiful venue and, um, the the space and everything's good to go, But, um, yeah, I kind of tried to describe it like, um, you know, and this is really cheesy, but, um, but, like, you know, we're baking some luscious big queer cake youth cake, and, um and so we've got the tin, and but, you know, we need everybody to come up with all the ingredients. Um, so basically, it's it's your space. Your time. What do you want to do? And and so we did really cool kind of visualisation exercises around. Um, you know, if there was all the kind of money resource, everything in the world, what you know, And you got to hang out with two other 200 other young people, Um, you know, similar to yourself for four days. What would you love to do? As you can imagine, there are some pretty funny answers. Um, which was cool and, um, but yeah, so it was really great. It was like, um, you know, most people wanted Lady Gaga to perform, um, all sorts of things, but it was it was great, because basically, um, when we kind of did part of the visualisation was sort of, you know, what would you love to learn? Like, what workshops would you like to do? Um, what experiences would you like to have? And, um And yeah, young people are awesome at just thinking so far outside any squares, you know, especially I think our communities. And, um And so, um, yeah, people came up with these fantastic dreams of of yeah, of workshops that they'd love to do things they'd like to explore. And then, um, the next, the next thing we did in the in the kind of exercise was to go. OK, so here's our huge list of things, um, and try to match up skills with the different things. So it was really a choice. Some people would be like, I really love to, you know, do, um, dance workshops or, you know, explore gender, do some drag or do some whatever and and then inevitably, there'd be somebody else in that group or in the group that I've been with the week before, who were like, who's actually a dance tutor or who, um, trying to think of the kind of we had some really amazing, um, amazing workshops and stuff, but so basically the what happened was, um all the dreaming happened and the kind of big wish list. And then the young people basically worked out ways to kind of match that list to their skills. So we did other kind of did exercises around, you know, trying to, um, for people to kind of work out what their particular offerings are or what their skills are or, you know, and even people when people are really shy, there's really great ways that they can be contributing. So, um, yeah, it was just kind of like this amazing three month period of, um, supporting them to kind of weave this awesome. Their brick of, um, of yeah, of of the kind of skills and vision and dreams together, Um, which I think, you know, ultimately is really empowering, because then they, you know, became more and more aware that it was actually they'd made this kind of perfect thing, you know, and God, it wasn't perfect, but it was amazing, chaotic and divine, you know? And, um and yeah, just that kind of great thing of realising that actually, we have all the resources that we need, you know, not not financial, but but to kind of, I guess, get a sense of that wealth, you know, in terms of all of the other stuff was really cool. So how does that fit with the idea that, like, you were saying at the start, where to Know what you want to achieve out of a kind of an event in this situation, You Rainbow Youth has actually created a space like a three day window of time but didn't know how to fill it. What was Rainbow youth driving idea behind? I mean, why why did they create that space? Um, so I'd say also, it wasn't about not knowing how to fill it. It's about being committed to the youth, the youth, which is about basically learning how to do that. Learning how to, um, uh, host space, facilitate the development of stuff, all of that kind of thing without actually, um, doing it or doing the content and that I guess that's just part of that kind of, you know, youth development. Um, those ways of working. Yeah. Um, so but yeah, I guess their vision around doing that was that They wanted to, um, develop more of a national focus, Like realising that they're probably the most resourced, you know? And actually, financially, they're not very resourced at all, but, um, but, you know, they've got a There's a drop in centre, for example. And that's more than is in pretty much anywhere else in the in the country. Aside from, um, uh, in Nelson, where that's the Q youth. They have a a little centre there, which is really cool. But, um uh, Rain youth also delivers education in schools. You know, that that we had the most staff out of, I mean, the only people with actually from Nelson. Actually, there's yeah, kind of part time stuff all over the show, but, yeah, Rainbow youth was basically the most resource. There was a director, administrator and educator. Um 00, yeah. It's, um there was Sorry, I'm going back now, But, um, there was also with the dancing with the stars money, um, Rainbow youth, because that was the idea. That was everybody knew. Everyone knows that. We need to kind of do some, you know, build some really strong networks nationally in order to kind of be able to affect any big picture change. Um, and there's just so much stuff that needs to get that needs to happen. And there needs to be much more kind of momentum behind that. And so those networks need to be really strong, even in order to kind of get, um, resourcing for all of the other groups around the country. Um, so with when the dancing with the stars, um, funding came through the the focus was to put that into kind of a national focus, basically. And so how rainbow Youth did that was to fund a national scoping project. Um, which is actually really interesting read. You can get it off the rainbow youth website, um, or the summary. You know, um, and it, you know, it comes up with all of the stuff that, you know you would assume. Um but it's kind of at least now it's officially kind of backed up by research, and and so that's been a Really That's a cool tool, and it's now getting utilised a bit more. But, um, basically, yeah, what? What those researchers found out as well was that, um there was yeah, there was a mandate there for rainbow you to kind of hold that space to initiate that, um, national focus. So I guess the next step on that was to basically create a space where young people from all over the country could come together and, um, yeah, strategize around how they wanted to do that. The other thing is, though, that because lots of young people who live in really isolated situations, they also just want to come together and hang out and, you know, do their own thing. And so, um, yeah, that was it was a kind of interesting part of it as well, you know, kind of having that, um I guess slightly more, um, or being aware of the kind of politics of how you know some of the ways that change happens and how we need to be really strategic about that and then getting a whole lot of young people together who, of course, are just like, yeah, I want to party, you know, and like and then you know, and there's really kind of, um, cool young agitators in there who really, you know, there's, like, amazing kind of wild scope of of personalities and combinations and drives and and, um But it was Yeah. I mean, it was really illustrated the need for, um, even just for social time, you know, time to just I mean, it was so emotional. Young people were kind of, you know, there were tears and, you know, and loveliness and the work. But, um, but it was a It was a really intensely emotional time, and it it kind of, um yeah, I think there was a real indicator of, um, kind of living in a heteronormative gender normative world when there was that window. Outside of that, it was kind of like, um, you know, the young people didn't necessarily want to sit around and strategize how to change, you know, schools and get, you know, tackle the big issues. And, you know, it was kind of about connecting and, you know, and obviously that's the way all that stuff happens anyways through connections and building relationships. And, um, there was definitely relationships built. Yeah, um, but one of the one of the other things that young people really wanted is they wanted to to hear from their heroes, and some of the kind of, you know, they they really craved their intergenerational, um, content. But, um but yeah, I wanted to To drive, being able to host that and all of that kind of stuff, which is, I think, really, really different from all of the other stuff that happens. And so, um, it would be really interesting to kind of that we were just so flat out that afterwards I haven't really had time to check in with lots of the people that, um, some of those kind of elders that presented And even when we did that, actually, we did it in a really different way. So we used it was similar to the kind of picture kua format. I don't know if you So what happens with that is that, um, people present, So, um, it's really visual. So there's, um you can use PowerPoint and things. It's like 20 slides and 20 seconds per slide. Um, my maths is really bad, but that should add up to about six minutes. And, um and so basically, um, we had these Phenomenal, Really? I mean, you know, some real powerhouse people speaking, you know, telling stories with young people and kind of addressing, you know, big issues, big kind of historic stuff. Um, some of the looking at, you know, one of the key focuses. Sorry, I'm going on the show, but, um, one of the things that the scoping project came up with was that, you know, obviously there's a real issue around. I think, in the research, they called it diversity within diversity. So basically, um, how, um, queer and trans youth spaces kind of become homogenised like everything else. And so that the you know, um, diversity. Not so much around, um, sexuality, but specifically around, um, gender, race, ethnicity, Um, all sorts of stuff, you know, um, disability, Um And so for me, I was really, Really that's that's kind of what really excited me about the project was that there was scope. There was, you know, kind of a mandate to really get into some of that stuff, um, around power and language and bodies. And, you know, um, so we one of the ways that, um, that we kind of started exploring some of that stuff, um, was through this. Yeah, we call it a think tank, and, um and that was we had a whole pile of presenters who, Um which was the only kind of quote unquote non youth? Uh, part. Well, we had this kind of beautiful, intergenerational welcoming part. But then, aside from that, all of the workshops where you are you lead apart from this one who where they basically, um, said all the people that they really wanted to hear from. And, um, these people presented on all sorts of topics using that kind of model of 20 slides. 20 seconds. So it was really fast and furious. And, um, you know, it's quite kind of, um, endearing thing. Somebody do that, you know, it's quite it's quite performative, and and it's quick. And so we'd have kind of, um I think we had sort of themed sections and three people per theme, um would present. And then, um, we'd all kind of clump into little think tanks and and just, you know, organically make sense of, you know, whatever came up, What? Our thoughts were on that, um, so it was, you know, Yeah, quite dynamic. And it was a really interesting. Unfortunately, you know, time wise, it timed that too far down the track and the young people were kind of emotional and been up for two nights in a row and knackered. And, you know, So, um, we kind of, you know, I think we should have been more staunch about that. That was a space that we just all stayed at the entire time. But But it was We tried to just keep it really organic. So people kind of coming in and out and things like that. And, you know, that was another cool learning that it's really important to have that time where everything's kind of really loose, and people can just follow their instincts around what they want to be doing. But I think it's also really important to kind of, um protect time. That is really precious, you know, and not to kind of define what that is and isn't. But, um, yeah, I felt like we had this Really, um, amazing. I had a really amazing gift, and the people that came to present what they did and it would have been, would have been great to kind of throw all of the, you know, for everyone to throw all of the energy into kind of making that happen. But, you know, these are the learnings, and I still kind of think it was a It was a cool concept and lots of great stuff happened with it. And if that was going to happen again, you know, that would be a learning from that. Yeah. Sorry. I've gone so far off the off the track, I don't even know where we are. Now. It's all fascinating stuff. I'm wondering how How was it for you to actually, um, be in a position where you enabling things to happen but not controlling things? It was, Yeah, it was totally inspiring. It was amazing. Um, and it was really challenging, you know, I'm a real control freak, And, um so I think that was beaten out of me in the last year. Um, yeah. I mean, I'm aware of that, so I really, you know, try and catch myself, but, um, and it's not so much about being a control freak. It's just about, you know, getting so excited about it, you know, and wanting it to be all it can be and and just knowing that epic potential that's there and wanting to really kind of protect the room for that to happen and Um, yeah. So but wow, it's just, you know, I just think God, everybody should spend a year working in a youth led youth run environment because it's just you just learn really radical new ways of, um, working. And it's it's Yeah. I mean, it's really challenging. I found it really, really challenging. But I also, um yeah, I learned heaps. I learned heaps about risk and and trust and empowerment. And, um, you know, I kind of always thought that I worked from from I guess I in my head, I thought I've worked in lots of kind of, I don't know, even know how to talk about this stuff. Um, yeah, I don't know. I think there's some real cool, really interesting kind of cool parallels around sovereignty stuff, you know, in in relation to all sorts of groups of people. And, um, you know, as a white person, I'm really not used to working in those ways. You know, I grew up pretty staunchly feminist, and, um and I guess of, you know, in whatever ways, kind of, uh, done lots of social justice work over the years and and tried to check myself lots on how I work and and but, you know, it's Yeah, it was a whole another. It was really a whole another layer and level of learning. And it's it's really cool, because now I'm kind of working on this, um, project around youth mental health. And, um and, you know, there's some parallels with, um you know, um, consumer driven projects. And I'm really aware now, of of the kind of I guess the detail of where that is and isn't honourable. Yeah. So interesting stuff. Do Do you have any examples of of of that kind of challenge? I think for me the biggest. Actually, the thing I learned most from was, uh, need to kind of throw all your energy into something and support support everything as best as you possibly can. Listen heaps and heaps and heaps and just respond rather than drive. But, um, but also to just support risk and support failure and support disaster, you know, and I know that it's just it's not necessarily usual way of working, but it's kind of like, you know, being really aware that all of that, um all of that stuff is actually where the biggest learnings are. So if people are kind of supported and held and and can take care of each other through all of that stuff through taking huge risks and and getting that those awesome moments where it really works and also experiencing shit, not working together like and kind of disastrously not working is as long as as long as all of those sort of support networks stay there, then people grow through that, you know? I mean, that's the best opportunity for learning and growth, and especially if there's time to kind of evaluate what's going on and work out strategize how to kind of move past that? Um, yeah, I guess I've just become a huge believer in in that so and not being risk averse and not avoiding things going wrong, really trying to support things, working well, but, um, yeah, I don't know. Um, so what would be an example? Can you give me an example of that? It's really it's actually quite hard to put my finger on something because I just feel like the entire process was full of that at every single level. So lots of it's about having really big dreams and big visions, and I think that's the real strength that young people have. Um, but also, sometimes not having the experience to know what kind of resourcing you need to actually achieve that or what kind of time you need to achieve that. Um, lots of things that I had no idea how they were going to happen. So, for example, or, you know Oh, actually, I can think of So sometimes young people getting really inspired about their workshop and, um, and on, you know, fudge making demonstrations, or like, um, um I think we had lesbian Erotica corner or we had, um um the, um D minority crew were doing, um, hip hop dance classes. And, um, we had this kind of amazing range of I. And then there was, um, trans cartooning and all sorts of things. But like some of those workshops, for example, young people were really excited about really prepared for and bought all their stuff and and, you know, you go Oh, yeah. Who knows who's going to go to what workshop? There's so many different things on that people can go to and, you know, and in those moments when you realise that nobody's going to go to somebody's workshop. And ah, I'm just like, trying not to cry and lose it and, you know, and and or rush in and like, make it OK, you know, do whatever and, um, forcing myself to, like, sit on my hands and not, you know, just trust the process, Trust that I had lots of really cool young facilitators there who were being conscious of watching the space and all of that sort of stuff. And, um God, it was so inspiring, you know, just seeing when nothing happens, young people's empathy kicks in and kind of consciousness and everything, and then that actually never happened in a bad way. The only time it happened was there were one or two situations where nobody wanted to go to somebody's workshop. And then another crew of young people just went over and were like, Oh, hey, maybe we could incorporate this with what we're doing and blah, blah blah. And then there was this beautiful collaboration and a really empowering situation all around, and that was actually amazing. So actually, that's a bad example, because that's when it worked. Um oh, yeah, it's funny. I can't I must be recalling with rose and glasses. I know that there were lots of situations where big dreams fell through. Um um, there was heaps and heaps of energy behind stuff. And, you know, for example, even the show night, the kind of big performance night. I was just like, how is this going to happen? Nothing has been set up, you know, it's like, yes, you throw your lead. But like, my God, we need a sound system. We need this, that the other thing. And of course, everyone's on it, you know, just in their own goddamn time. And, um and, you know, by the end of you know OK, so I didn't start till 11 o'clock at night or whatever it was, and it wasn't that bad, but, um, but when it happened, it was awesome. You know, it was totally amazing. And and, um yeah, I guess really beautiful chaos, you know? So stuff happens. There's Yeah, I guess. Lots of those kind of vulnerabilities seeing people recover from them when they've got people around them that they know or don't know. Um, yeah, it's really beautiful. And does that come back to the the the at the start, which gave that kind of list of, what, 15 things about how you actually treated people. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how well that worked, like, and it it was great to have it there. But I think that, um, the kind of environment that the young people created themselves and moderated themselves. We We did go back to that stuff when we needed to at various points, But, um, yeah, they they kind of we had the way we had it set up was that, um we had people called hens. So that was Mama hens or Papa hens or hens for the more gender fluid. And, um and then they were a kind of youth, um, facilitator in one of in the cabins. So they were the people that everybody would kind of go to if they had stuff going on. And that was just to sort of make sure that everyone felt good and safe at night and all that sort of thing, and we have check in at at meal times. Um, so that was kind of the first sort of point of call. All the young people had a buddy system. So they had one person who was a buddy, and then the kind of next layer out from that. If we kind of thinking of a ripple, um, would be the in the, um, in the and then and then the had a, um we sort of, um, used a bit of the, um, concept. Um, you know, not as well as we could. Good learning there. But, um, we had a a crew who were basically that that, um, core group that I spoke about earlier. So that was the, um, like, the kind of they started off as but lots of them were in the kind of youth advisory crew. But then, um, invited all of you know, some of the other, um, leaders and facilitators from all around the country to kind of be part of that as well. So there was good representation, and, um and then So we did a a training day with them with all the kind of crew the day before, Or actually, everyone arrived that night. Um, yeah. So around around lots of that stuff, how we were going to look after space, how we were going to deal with conflict, tricky situations, um, you know, self harming or whatever. It was all of that kind of full on stuff that that's present, you know, a trauma and, um, as well as all the good stuff. But how we kind of look after each other, basically. And so there were those sort of levels and layers of, um of support that people had. Um, and I think that the tour kind of crew used that, um that we developed a lot just in terms of kind of working with each other and peer supervision, supporting each other and things like that. We also had, um the next layer out from that was, um uh I L, um a So they, um basically, all of the had, um uh, a non youth person who was there to support them. Basically. So some some of that, um, at had, um, maybe two to a kind of to care take. And basically, their whole project, while they were there, was just to check in with them, make sure they were They were the sort of that backstop or that kind of mentoring relationship. And then and then we also had So, um, Tommy, Who's the executive director at Youth? Um, and Marie, Um who You know, awesome. Awesome person. Um and, um, a counsellor. So Manny and Tommy and myself were sort of, I guess, the final backstop, the four in the morning, banging on the door. There's a situation. Um, yeah. So that kind of stuff. So I guess, um yeah. In terms of process, I think that's quite interesting, because it's quite unique. Um, that system that we developed for to basically support as much kind of autonomy and independence as we could, but also to make sure that there were just, um all those kind of layers of back up in community. So people felt really so the young people felt really held, and yeah, and and, like, they could take risks. And like, there was good stuff that could happen. But but also that we care that we took care. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that the whole kind of atmosphere of the was like a trickle down effect? Basically coming from the, um, organising group down Or was it more a thing that was actually made up of the people from that that actually attended? I think in terms of tone. Lots of the, um I think the crew really presented, like, I guess, energetically or in terms of how they were with each other in terms of the kind of the communication that they modelled. That was really important. And I think people really picked up on that. So, um, we really wanted to work with that idea of not having We didn't have any rules, and we didn't want to have any kind of didactic, um, you know, disciplinary and all that stuff. It just totally doesn't work with that with, you know, with that philosophy and that way of working. So, um, is you know, the best thing you can do is actually be really conscious about, um, about modelling, really call positive, empowering, you know, nondiscriminatory behaviour, Um, and discriminatory, discriminating, you know, stuff that makes people feel shit, you know, not doing that. Um, and and actually, actively making sure that, um, that that stuff doesn't happen. So I think, Yeah, I think most of that happened through through lots of that kind of, um Well, the dynamic and, um, just ways of working, being modelled. Yeah. Yeah. To be honest, it's kind of hard to say because, you know, I think that I don't think that I had a day off for, like, 30 days before the and then it was, You know, we certainly didn't sleep much that week in the lead up. You know, it was just It was It was a really, really big mission, you know? And that was because of the time frame and because we genuinely did it in a youth led youth way. So it just means that instead of one phone call, it's like 15 texts, 12 follow up phone calls. You know, like all these kind of layers of Yeah, which is which is cool. It's just the way that it has to be done, but yeah. So basically, by the time the actually came and the fact that we probably were getting two or three hours sleep a night, I'm probably not the best person to talk to, you know, um, the young people, you know, say amazing stuff about it, and I, you know, like anything, there was lots of really great stuff and lots of, you know, really good kind of learning areas, but, um, yeah, I don't feel like I have a really good overview of how everything actually worked during the, you know, when you're just kind of so embedded in the detail that yeah, yeah, but you just mentioned, like, emails and texts and stuff. What? What What did you find was the best form of communication with all these people? Um, well, by the end of it, we're kind of I mean, you know, for the next people that hosted a national, there's some really good systems. Um, which we refined afterwards. So, yeah, it was a total work in progress, you know? And, um Sam Shaw, who who kind of does that, you know, project managers stuff and does the admin for, um at Rainbow Youth is, um, you know, a genius when it comes to that kind of the system stuff. But even so just because we just had we're dealing with such huge numbers and kind of yeah, such a kind of chaotic environment. It just, um there was really no good system rather than other than it was just all the relationship stuff. Knowing who was friends with who to call if you couldn't get hold of them. And who you know, being really conscious of all of that stuff of how people wanted to be contacted. So, um, because lots of young people, you know, there were issues around family or or their living situations that they needed to kind of be, you know, out of such a problematic word. But, you know, they their privacy was really important. Um um, So, yeah, I guess it actually depended. It was different for everybody. I just made it really easy. Um, but Facebook Awesome. You know, Facebook? Definitely. Probably the best. Um, definitely. If you can just get somebody on the phone and talk to them. Awesome. But sometimes tricky. Yeah. So, um not Yeah, but tend to be with young people, Not not landlines and usually not mobile calls, mostly texting or Facebook. And do you think, having gone around the country doing the face to face thing Was that an integral part in terms of of actually establishing those connections? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I just think, you know, Yeah, it's just it's relationships. It's face to face stuff. It's, um, you know, young people have to youth. Engagement is a big deal, you know, like it's it's lots about um, there's no shortcuts, I guess, Is the thing. Yeah, So that, um it was really great that there was. I had that time to sort of race around the country and do that. There are places I couldn't get to so other people would go there. Um, we came up with a kind of workshop format which worked like that, and, um yeah, but it's lots about that. But I think now, um, things are in a really different place because lots of young people have made much kind of deeper connections over the last year. Um, so it's sort of a step ahead now. It doesn't need to kind of that stuff, doesn't it Wouldn't need to happen in the same way, because now there's these networks that the young people have, which are functioning in whatever ways. So there was after after the which was halfway through the year, the next half of the year, we kind of focused on, um, hosting these kind of video video, like once a month where whoever wanted to come from whatever the of the regions would get together and just have a big yarn for an hour about what the issues were what was going on? Um, just general kind of networking stuff, which was really awesome. Um, big issues there around accessibility. Um, so, you know, one of the other things that rain you trying to, um, do some work on at the moment is kind of, um, supporting development of a rural network. Um, and because, you know, still, there's a lot of Internet and things like that and lots of places and, oh, there's just so many layers around accessibility in terms of kind of, you know, financial, physical, cultural. Um, you know, there's so many so many challenges around accessibility that, um that hopefully, you know, this kind of generation of young people are are going to get their teeth into much more. And, um, yeah, yep. If anyone has heaps of money, send it their way because there's so many amazing things on the boil. And, um, there's so much stuff that's just good to go. But, um, it's yeah. I mean, it really is. I hate saying that that's an issue, but it's it really is a barrier, you know, like there's endless energy. There's endless genius ideas of of ways to develop this stuff. There's so much cool stuff happening around. Kind of trying to push, um, some change around education. And, um but, yeah, it it actually just needs to be financially supported, that's what. Yeah, I reckon so. How do you think we can do that? How do you think that can happen? Um, so I'm just I'm just I guess I just need to be clear that I'm really, um I'm talking about Auckland at the moment because I'm here and that there's amazing, really important stuff happening all around the country. And there's lots of ways to slot into those kind of groups and ask, you know, I think the I think the best thing is wherever people are around the country, you know, finding out who the who, the youth crews of youth, young people are in the area that are doing stuff and actually just making contact with them and asking how they want to be supported, you know? So if I know that Rainbow Youth has a really good database now, of, um what groups are we and things like that? So, um, if people wanted to kind of financially support groups locally, that would be a really cool way to do it and other other ways is literally like maybe um, supporting groups by by offering to, um, do funding applications for them or, um, mentor them through funding applications, keeping an ear out. If you hear of funding that's going that could work for them. Just giving them a call or facebooking and saying, Hey, have you heard of this? Do you want any help writing an application for this or whatever? Um, stuff like that or, um, up here there's, um, up in Auckland, Um, outlining Rainbow Youth are working on this campaign really exciting campaign at the moment. The WTF one, which will be, um, can I say it's the what the fuck campaign. It's really exciting. And it's like basically the idea behind it is, um, that lots of kind of big names will be making videos that are going to go viral. And so lots of that's already been shot. And it's, um, you know, the idea is like, What the fuck? I can't take my partner to the school ball. Um hey, my mom's marriage isn't recognised. What the fuck? All of this kind of like kind of looking at, um, lots of the social justice issues related to, um, MVPFF intersex youth. Um, identities. And, um, but but from a really different place so similar to those kind of, um, the fuck hate campaign, um, and and that Yeah, it's a really different attitude. It's lots more about, um Hey, actually, what's going on? This is really bad. We've got a right to this and I don't know, you know, this has got to get changed. Not that kind of. Please give us money. We'll do. We'll be really nice and we'll be good queers. And you know all of that sort of stuff. So it's a really different tack. So hopefully when that goes viral, that's basically creating opportunity for people to, um, donate online to, you know, to that campaign, which which will be supporting stuff like this. The idea is that basically, you know, you just set up a AP. So, um, you know, lots of young people I know of are are donating, like, $2 a month from their account, you know, from their pocket money or whatever. Um, as well as all of the older people that have money, because what we've sort of noticed is actually the people that don't have money, who often are prepared to give it, which is a weird thing. And it'd be really cool to change that. Um, but yeah, but basically, whoever can just put in a regular donation and, um, I think that works on a couple of levels. It means that people feel kind of engaged with what's going on. And, um uh are more invested in kind of going, Oh, I wonder what's happening with that. Or maybe that initiates them, doing their own stuff. Um, as well as it just means that, you know, lots of the really exciting stuff around. Young people can get financially supported. So maybe, I mean, that's one way people can contribute when that stuff happens. Thinking of funding. And I'm wondering, um, that kind of campaign where you're saying you know, why the fuck is something not happening or where you're saying we want to create a space where a social space where people can come together and that's really important. But with a lot of organisations, that fun stuff, they need to see deliverables, they need to see outcomes. So how do you take those ideas and turn them into words that funders will say, I'll go for that. Do you have any ideas about that? Um, I mean, I think in a dream world, you know, there would be you could partner with funders who kind of understood the process and the dynamics and the the that you're working with, basically, So you could actually say, Hey, look, this is the long term vision, and this is where we need to get to. The only way we're going to get there is through developing really, um, deep, meaningful relationships and networks. And so it's gonna take longer, but it's gonna end. It's going to be relationship based, and that's how we're going to get there. So dream scenario. Otherwise, I think that it's, um, you know, in kind of smaller or one off situations. I think it's about being, um, you know, getting some help to write your funding applications and just working out how to strategically, like, basically just match whatever the funders are funding. Finding a way to, um, you know, without being dishonest, work out what you're doing, how what you're doing actually lines up with whatever it is that they say that they're going to fund because I think one of the big things, particularly with young people, um and you know, queer and trans organising is that, um there's a lack of confidence, you know, like there's this kind of there's there's not that sense of entitlement that there is in other places which, um, kind of sucks because it means that people are organising these really important events and community development, youth development stuff. But they just think it's their own thing, and they don't think that it's they deserve money for it or whatever. So, um, that's yeah, that's an issue, I guess it's like about, um, people. I know sometimes I can think of situations where young people have got together and sort of worked on funding stuff together and actually helped each other write it. And and, you know, if you say I want to do this thing, I want to bring these people together to talk about this stuff because I think there's real problems around blah, blah, blah. And then, if you know, saying that out loud and brainstorming that with someone can help you work out other ways to say that which I mean, that's a really valid, really important thing to do, and you can get funding to do that sometimes. But it's just about, um yeah, I guess building the confidence to know how to frame that, to know how to say it or to write it or whatever. And I guess, yeah, my recommendations with that is to get support like find people who have been getting funding and offer to make them dinner in exchange for reading your funding application and helping you out with it, you know? Yeah, in a funding application, Would there be words that you would use to a funder that you wouldn't use to the group that you are applying funding for? Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think. And I think that's part of that thing of learning to kind of walk between worlds is is learning to shift your language to get what you, you know, to to be able to get stuff happening. You have to be strategic about how you say things, and and I don't think that that's about not having integrity. I think that that's about yeah, being strategic. So, um, yeah, I mean, I can think of um, times I've had to kind of frame things in this kind of really gross charitable language, which I find really offensive and problematic. But I know that if I do it, I can get $300 towards this project which, um which I can guarantee is not going to have any of that flavour in it, you know? But it's Yeah. Yes. You mentioned the, um, workshop process just before, and I'm just wondering, could you just outline for me what that was when you were going around or getting other people to go around the country? Yeah, that was I think I was talking about that a bit about that before it was, um, basically going around and and letting people know what the opportunity was, Um, getting them excited about it, Um, and And yeah, running exercises which, um, enabled them to kind of visualise how they how they wanted to take it and where they wanted to take it to. And, um, and about getting that kind of alchemy of, of want and giving, or like, um, of yeah, them kind of coming up with what their biggest wildest dreams were, and then realising that they actually had lots of those skills to kind of manifest that. Yeah. So that's what most of those exercises were around. What about the situation in those, um, those workshops where you're walking into a group, you've never met any of them before. And how do you win them over? How do How How do you make them want to be part of the thing that you're wanting to do? Um, I had this really, really weird experience of me feeling like my dad, like, feeling like a total dork. You know, like as in. That's one of his qualities. That was one of I remember that was, but it was kind of a real shock for me going Oh, my God. I'm elderly, you know, like I just, you know, kind of actually, before doing that stuff more or less identifying as a young person, I guess, in lots of ways. And then, um well, not Yeah, I don't know. Maybe because I had a lot of older friends, I kind of always felt and then suddenly, being in these situations where I didn't understand the language or like it was just yeah, it was a total like lolloping geek in these environments, But, um, I think, I guess, yeah, I guess where I'm coming with it is, um I think it's just about authenticity. Yeah, about, um, not trying to be anything that you're not and that people respond to that. Yeah. So, um uh, yeah, I guess it's just about, um yeah, being really straight up and upfront about who you are and why you're there. What? What your own kind of excitement is about the project, and, um, and where? Where you see the scope. But also, I guess it's actually about having really, really good facilitation skills to actually be able to, um, you know, and I'm I'm still learning. I think that's a lifelong learning. But, um, I know that particularly actually with within the, um, community, youth communities that I was working with last year. There's some phenomenal facilitators, like all around the country, actually, and I've seen I've worked with young people in lots of different communities, and it is I mean, I've just never seen such amazing skills as I've seen within the kind of queer trends Youth communities. Yeah, so that's that's amazing. Um, in terms of one of the kind of awesome resources I think that there is. That's one of them. So, um, but yeah. Um, yeah, I guess it's just about being super alert before you go in and conscious of all of that kind of holding space, facilitating opening up enough room, um, and putting enough energy out there that that people can kind of pick up and and want to run with what you're doing, but, um, but yeah, also not sort of setting up false expectations or kind of, um, yeah, it's interesting. Tell and Jay talking about limits without being limiting. Yeah. Um, so I guess working with that really sort of strength based model is a really great way to do that stuff because, um, it's building on. I guess part of that facilitating is supporting the conversation to kind of come back to, you know, initially go really huge and really out there. And then it's not actually about bringing that down. It's about trying to find the, um the kind of the skills in the room and the talents and everything that that can match some of that stuff, which will look different to how it initially looked because probably. You know, um, Gaga and Nelson Mandela can't turn up at the But, you know, we can have amazing performers and really powerful speakers, and, um, and the young people would realise that it was them. And I think that's the That's the magic. And when you when you can facilitate, um, those kind of realisations to happen, then just watching what the young people do with that is such a buzz, you know, it's really humbling. Yeah, it sounds like the was, uh, just the most amazing experience for for a lot of people that were involved. And, uh, I'm kind of reflecting back on the experience I had with the Asia Pacific Art Games in in Wellington, which was just three or four days of really intense, amazing, exhilarating experiences. And I certainly noticed that I kind of have this kind of come down, period at the end of it. How do you, um I'm assuming I'm not the only person that has that kind of experience. How how do you, uh, try and work with that kind of come down period after something like that? How do you How do you make it Not so bad Yeah, Great question. Um, do you mean for everybody else or for me? Well, maybe for you. Let's start with you first. And then, um I guess I guess my experience of that is, um, you know, as a practising artist, I got quite good at that because I realised that, you know, I remember in my twenties after we did, um, doing I. I work with a really choice amazing group of people called the Girlies Project. And, um, we Yeah, we would do kind of, um, you know, all move into a We'd rent a big kind of empty warehouse, move in for four months or quit our jobs, and, um, go on the dole and, um, basically paint full time. So we'd workshop during the day workshop, this kind of concept we want to work with and then go back to our studios, which we all built in the space and make work, be making work, and then, um, eat together at night and party, and you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then we we'd build our own gallery in the in the space. So we did that on Cooper Street. A couple of times and literally, like, build the floor and the walls And, um, it was amazing. So we'd kind of tailor make these spaces, um, for the work, and and we'd have workshops during the exhibition and all of that sort of stuff, but so, I mean, that was just kind of epic, but actually amazing, you know, learning curve. And, um yeah, and we did some really cool stuff, and and, um, doing that was I think before that I'd kind of done, you know, shows. And you always felt a bit blue afterwards, but I wasn't sure I hadn't quite worked out what that was. But then because that was such a kind of big scale, because it was such a kind of big investment of everything. You know, we throw our whole Selves into it. And then afterwards, we just, you know, I remember one time just being, you know, there was about four of us, and, um I mean, you know, we were hung over and stuff, but we're just like lying on the floor crying. I was thinking, This is weird. We didn't take any drugs. We're not coming down. What's going on? You know, like I couldn't. It was just so emotional. And it was the first time that I kind of went Oh, hold on. Maybe that's connected to, you know, and sort of consecutively since then for my whole life, always after a project. It's like, you know, the Post show blues that hit and, um, you know, to lesser or greater degrees. But I think, yeah, I think the thing is, now for me is just being really aware that that's part of the process and to expect it and anticipate it. And, um yeah, And just so you know, I kind of now know that I have to take into account that there's, you know, I just need a little bit of time off or time out afterwards, um, and that I can just, like, you know, go to daytime movies and have hot baths and have a cry if I need to. And you know, um, actually, after this last tour, we we, um and I went over to Sydney to this thing called Camp Betty, which was a a kind of, um, big, um uh I don't know. Was it, um sex, gender, politics, kind of slash party thing and, um, you know, thinking, Oh, that'll be a really nice kind of regenerating, you know, basically go to participate in something and not have to lead or do any of that and not have to organise. And it would be, you know, the perfect kind of Homoeopathic antidote. And yeah, it totally wasn't epic. And then I got really sick, And then I had the flu, and, you know, um, yeah, so basically, just kind of sniffled my way through these, like, cold, horrible warehouses in Sydney, feeling sorry for myself and wishing that I'd, like had the money to go stay at some flesh, but feeling guilty that that's what I wanted and it was really funny. And in the end, actually, I mean, there was a, um there was some kind of big, you know, food, not bombs, kind of thing or something for lunch. And I was just, like, on the verge of tears. And I was like, Don't worry, I'm going to take you down to a lovely restaurant. And I went to some busy little restaurant and had really flash handmade pasta, and I felt he was better, so yeah, I think, um, it was Yeah, I think it's just like, yeah, you know, factoring in that, you just need to, um, give yourself some time out and cut yourself some slack. Yeah, that's yeah, we were saying that. And so with the participants, I mean, did you kind of cover that at some point over the course of the who you were? Yeah. Um, I think for most of the, um, groups, young people, the the crew that they came up with, there was kind of debrief time on the bus on the way home and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, lots of the young people I know got really kind of did get a bit blue after it, you know, because it's such a kind of beautiful, rare experience to have that reflection. And, you know, and that's a work in progress, you know, particularly around accessibility stuff. But but it it was still some kind of reflection and, um, and togetherness. And I think that particularly for young people going back to you know, who live in the middle of nowhere or or, you know, whatever their situation is, um, yeah, it was a big deal. But then again. Um, Facebook was just, like, hot for like, a month afterwards. Um, the young people created their own page for all of the people that had been at the and And, you know, people would be like, Oh, I feel so stink on my own. And then, you know, there'd be, like, 15 responses. Hey, you don't worry. Blah, blah, blah. Or do you want to Skype or send me your number? And I'll text you? You know, this kind of really awesome, um, support network of of everybody, sort of being in the same boat a little bit around that stuff and and, yeah, I. I mean, I was when I got back and saw all of that, I was, like, all choked up because it was just really nice to see um, yeah, just that awesome initiative and support and and, you know, it actually doesn't matter if you feel like shit. If everyone else is also feeling like shit and you're kind of hanging out bonding over that, you know, for a short period of time, that's OK. And it's only sad because he had such a beautiful thing. So it's sort of Yeah, I guess It's like that yummy kind of French melancholy or something. If you can experience it in that way instead of in the kind of Yeah, I think the only time it's a problem is when you don't anticipate it and then it's you know, then it sucks because you don't know what it is. And I have to say that after the that that kind of feeling of blue there's there's an absolute, um, afterglow that certainly with the age of stuff that that in years to come I will look back and go. Well, that that was so cool. Yeah, yeah. And I'm assuming that will be the same in, in in in this situation as well. Yeah, yeah, I, I totally agree. I think that And one interesting thing is I have noticed, though, is around kind of burn out stuff is, um, you know, I think for myself a couple of years back, I really burnt out quite badly for probably the second or third time anyway, getting better at that. But, um, what I noticed with that was that actually, I wasn't getting that after go afterwards, I was just like, knackered, you know, and I think that again. It's just a big issue around resourcing about trying to hold down a job and do your projects and have an art practise and maintain your relationships and all of that sort of stuff. And, um, yeah, I think that's kind of I think, you know, we were talking about kind of working strategically before, and I think that for me, part of the stuff that I've learned around organising is, um, to learn to sometimes take on less and do it in a way that you can feel really great about doing it and where you're not having to take shortcuts that you're feeling crappy about and and so that afterwards you actually can you do have the time, resource and energy to actually do that, follow through and follow up. And, um, yeah, I kind of can't emphasise that enough, you know, even with the Kazan project, it was like actually, by the end of it, you know, we were just so wrecked like we had just used every last drop of everything. Um, and I felt because of that, I wasn't able to kind of come up with all the you know, I wasn't able to be in all those places. I really felt like I needed to be to kind of, you know, thank people enough for being there or participating and all that sort of stuff. That it actually, yeah, I guess it wasn't good enough. So which is fine. It's a learning. But it's like, uh, I think part of that thing about when you are organising stuff, you know? And I don't think of myself as an organiser, which is kind of weird having this conversation, because then I go, Oh, my God. Weird. I've been organising things for my whole life, but, um but I think part of one of the good things about admitting that that is what you do is that yeah, maybe some of the processes around that you're able to be more clear or be clearer and more strategic about. So, um, if you don't have the resources and the people to to kind of do the whole process and do the follow up and look after yourself and each other at the end of it, maybe the more that the more you do these things, the more you become realistic about the amount of time and energy it takes to do them. And perhaps the more you can shape sizable, you know, appropriately sized projects that you can actually do and feel good about. Because if you don't feel good about it at the end, then it's just like God. That was just like, two years of my life and all my money and energy and heart gone into it. And I'm just reaped. Yeah, so it's an issue. The full transcription of the recording ends. 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The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/cos_jack_trolove.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089223. Jack Trolove also features audibly in the following recordings: "LGBTI* health plenary - Proud 2016" and "Trans ways of making - a panel discussion". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.