The title of this recording is "Jac Lynch- Butch on Butch". It is described as: Photographer Jac Lynch talks about the Butch on Butch photographic project. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 31st May 2015. Jac Lynch is being interviewed by Karen Harris.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 22 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast photographer Jac Lynch talks about the Butch on Butch photographic project. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: In a recorded interview held on May 31, 2015, at Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand, photographer Jac Lynch discusses the inception, development, and reception of the "Butch on Butch" photographic project with interviewer Karen Harris. The conversation delves into important perspectives on identity and community engagement, musing over the dynamics of self-identification, the challenges faced, and the process of bringing together a diverse group of participants for the exhibition. Originally inspired by the work of Meg Allen, a photographer from San Francisco, Jac Lynch sought to create a similar exhibition that reflected the butch identity within the Wellington community. This endeavor began with the simple act of creating a Facebook page to garner interest and participants. However, Lynch quickly learned a critical lesson in sensitivity and the complexity of personal identity. Initially reaching out directly to potential subjects, Lynch discovered that not everyone shared the same identification with the term 'butch,' prompting a shift to a more open and self-selective participant recruitment strategy. The exhibition "Butch on Butch," presented at Photospace Gallery, featured photographs of individuals who identified as butch or were perceived as such by others. Participants were given autonomy to choose the locations and props for their portraits, thereby incorporating elements significant to their personal narratives. Complementing the visual exhibition, narratives written by the participants themselves provided a more profound understanding of their experiences and identities. The reaction to the "Butch on Butch" project was one of deep interest and engagement both within the queer community and beyond. The exhibition received significant attention, including a feature in the Dominion Post, which brought greater visibility to the concept of Butch identity and provoked public discourse. Further, the entire project was marked by strong community participation, from the photos - returned to the participants post-exhibition - to the narratives that accompanied them, encapsulating the subjects' voices. Through the course of the project, Lynch came to appreciate the wide-ranging connotations and interpretations of the term 'butch,' learning from the participants about the diversity within this identity and confronting assumptions about sexual orientation. This inclusivity led to a rich tapestry of subjects, although Lynch hoped for even broader representation, noting an absence of individuals from certain demographics. The project culminated with a series of interviews hosted by PrideNZ. com, which aimed to delve deeper into the participants' personal experiences and interpretations of butch identity. Looking back on the "Butch on Butch" project, Lynch reflects on the lessons learned in project management and ideas for future community-based projects. With a focus on the importance of personal engagement and trust between the photographer and subjects, Lynch highlights the courage of participants and the warmth of the Wellington community which supported the exhibition's success. The interview ultimately underscores the potential for similar initiatives to spark dialogue, promote inclusivity, and highlight unique individual experiences within the larger queer community. The full transcription of the recording begins:  So Butch and Butch was a photo exhibition that was held at photos Space Gallery in Courtney Place for a couple of weeks in January and February 2015. It came out of, um, a a spark of an idea, uh, sort of from mid 2014, where I became aware of the work of Meg Allen, a photographer from San Francisco. Meg's been, um, photographing butchers, Um, for the last year or so and she's I think her exhibition has been travelling around the States. And, um, when I saw it, uh, some publicity about it came through on Facebook Sunday morning, as you do not quite awake. Saw it come through and thought, I, I reckon we could do something in Wellington like this or why not? You know, So, um, to make myself fully committed to that, I immediately set up, uh, something on Facebook and put out the word to people that if they wanted to be involved in this in some way, um, to get in touch with me. And when I first, um, was putting out that publicity about it, I couched it in the way of people who self identified as Butch, if they, um if they wanted to be, um, a participant to have their photo taken then, um, you know, we would talk about that and and get that done. Um, I also made the mistake of, uh, approaching a few people up front about it. And that's, um that was an early learning for me. Where, uh, people say, Why are you asking me? Oh, wow. So you were asking people directly and then So you mean their reaction to being asked about something so specific? Yeah. Yeah, it was It was, uh, I. I self identify as Butch and, um and I thought that some of my friends did, too. And then I quickly found out that, um they didn't necessarily identify as, uh in the same way that I that I did. So that was, um that was something new for me. And, um, it was good because that lesson was learned pretty pretty early on. And so I completely changed my approach and, um, made it much more around, um yeah, around emphasising if if you self-identity and I didn't approach people after that, so did any of those original people end up in the exhibition or were those ones that you originally approached directly did? Did you leave those ones and then and then just went to the people who self identified and volunteered themselves? That's right. A big big. None of the original ones were in it, Um, the ones who I approached? No, but but under, um because they didn't see themselves as in the way that I was couching it, which was, if you're Butch, basically come and be part of this. And I was approaching them along those lines and they weren't seeing themselves like that. So, um, when it was around, if you self-identity as Butch, then, um, then that that was that was open to people coming forward. But But what made it even more open was I um I also said, if, um, if you uh if you feel you're seen as Butch and, um, then you know, you might be interested in this as well. And that actually got probably half the people who ended up being in the exhibition were people who, um came into it because they didn't necessarily label themselves as anything, but they knew and had experienced for a long time that that other people saw them as as such. Yeah, and I just want to take you back a bit to when you initially saw the other exhibition that, uh, or the the the Was it Mel Allen. Did you say Meg Allen? Sorry. Um, and it came up on Facebook that jump between seeing that and then wanting to do your own project. Um, what's been your background and history in photography or that that kind of that? Because that's quite a jump to see that to see that of someone else and think, Oh, I could you know, Wellington could have something like that. So could you tell us a bit more about where you come from? I've sort of dabbled in photography. Um, for a few years now, I'd had an exhibition at photos space before a couple of years earlier. And, um, that was that was from photos I took while I was travelling in Asia. But basically, I was stuck in a motel room on, um for about 10 days and really had nothing, nothing to look at, other than the orange walls of the room and the TV set. So I ended up taking a whole lot of photos of that. And that became an exhibition. Um, yeah, James sets photo space. He's a he's a great guy to talk to. If you have ideas for things and they appeal to him, he's he's, um he can be really supportive. So he knew of me because I'd done this other exhibition with him. So, um, when I went back and talked to him about the butch and Butch idea and showed him some of my, um, first portraits that I was taking, um, yeah, James was really enthusiastic and liked the story of what was happening with it. Um, my background around the subject area would be my self identity, as as a butch person. And, um, the the for me. That's the idea that there's a masculinity that's not doesn't necessarily conform with, um, with the social norms around, um, gender roles, gender identity, and so on. And, um uh, yeah, so So Meg Allen's work appealed to me, and I wanted to I just thought, Why not? We can explore that here as well. Um, I didn't really think it obviously, from what I've already said, I didn't think it through that much before I put the idea out there. But, you know, things evolve and, um, you know, I just kind of feel Wellington's this sort of town where if you do have an idea and you can get people excited about it, then you can just make it happen. And that's pretty much how I approach life here. So and it worked. It worked. Yeah. And so you've said you you use social media to get people to engage and that you were then waiting for people to come and, um, volunteer themselves for it. What happened after that? Because I know I saw the exhibition. So some of the the photos that you that you were showing, um and I was interested that it seemed like, uh, you picked locations or they picked locations. Maybe that linked that was special to them or linked to their personality. So can you tell us like the that process of how you decided where to take the photos and how it was all arranged and things like that? That's right. Once, um, once someone got in touch with me about it, and we would, um, would meet and have a have a chat about why they wanted to be part of the project. Um, and it was up to them to decide where they wanted the photo taken. What sort of props? If that's the word for it they wanted around them that were meaningful to them. And, um, for that to help tell their story in the in the pictures, what was also really important to the project. And I think I really part of why people enjoyed it a lot, as, um is that each of the participants was asked to write a narrative for themselves. Um, 100 and 50 words maximum. And to have that go alongside the photo. And when, um I, I put together a booklet for the exhibition that had both the photo and the person's story next to it. And it I felt that gave, um, a good balance and, um, kind of a bit more of a wrap around than about the person as an individual than necessarily people just seeing what was what? How they were portrayed in the photo itself. Uh, OK, yeah. So people's the the subjects. I don't know if that's the language you're using. Sorry. What would you What would you use that? I call participant participants. Sorry. Um, they Yeah. So they had a voice within it as well. So as well as the photo, there was also their voice that was included with it. Yeah. And, um, following the exhibition, pride NZ dot com got in touch, and I had maybe a dozen interviews with the people who are in the exhibition as well. Um, there were 20 photos taken altogether, and 19 ended up going up in the exhibition itself at photos Space. And I've interviewed, I think, around a dozen of the people who were in it just to get even more of a story about them and their experience, um, of the butch identity And, um or how? How they've been seen as Butch, What that means for them in their lives. Um, and and the broader story about their lives as people. What's been the reaction to it both within the queer community and also maybe outside of the queer community? Because I know at the time there was an article in the Dom Post wasn't there. So I know. What what's been the reaction? Yeah, within those kind of two areas just before the exhibition started. I think it's because James sent out some publicity to the Dominion Post. Um, they got in touch and ended up running a full page feature with some photos from the exhibition in it. And also an interview with me about it. Um, and about Butch as as an identity. Um, and so that was That was that was great. I got quite a lot of feedback from people that, you know, it was a nice thing to open Open up over the breakfast. I think it was called, um, being Butch was for how they how they headlined it. And then, um uh, yeah, me sort of leaning nonchalant against a wall in the in the gallery. Um, yeah. So that was that was great publicity for it. And then I had a I had a Facebook page, which is still there. Um and, um, that was people have been sharing that page. Um, I think there's about 200 likes on that. So I was keeping people up to date with how the project itself was going as I was taking the photos. And then once the exhibition was up with it and the interview started happening was able to put it up through that as well. Um, you know, got really good positive feedback from people about when they came along to the exhibition. We had a big opening, and that was a very hot evening in January, but it was packed out. It was great. It was like an event. I loved it. Um, And, um, there was, uh it was really helpful that I was able to sell the booklets because I wasn't selling the photos. They've They've all gone back to the participants, and that was a deliberate thing. I. I don't want to sell someone's portrait like that. Um, but selling the booklets helped to finance some of the project. Um, and I also got help from, uh, photographer Jenny O'Connor, who's behind the visible at 60 project. And Jenny is a great mate of mine. Was really helpful in terms of me looking at the photos with her and, um, getting some sense of, um, you know how they could be created together or, um, where I was mucking up things or you know, those sorts of things because I'm an amateur photographer. I'm certainly not professional, so it was. It was great to have a mentor to help me out there, Um, as well as be able to talk to it and talk about it with James going through it. So what would you say? I guess that there are two parts to this question. Um, about what you've learned from doing the project. So did you learn anything new or different about the concept of Butch? Um or did anything surprise you about the concept of Butch? Um And also, did you learn? What have you learned about, um, doing projects like that? So setting up projects like that and following them through. So that's two quite big questions, actually. So the question Yeah. And did you learn anything new, or were you surprised by anything around the concept of Butch and people's discussions around that it was interesting that people wanted to go straight into the butch fem dichotomy and that that wasn't where this was going or what it was about. Um, people even said, Oh, why don't you take, you know, why don't we do one of with S? And why don't you do one of them? Well, I'm not, you know, So If that's something that people who identify as want to explore their they're the best ones to do it. You know, I'm not going to do that. So it was much more about something that, you know, related to me as a person. Um, what I what I really learned? Um was there was one of the participants, um, Maori. She, um she heard about it and she approached me and she said, Look, I've talked with some people I. I would like to be part of this. Um, in fact, she was one of the ones I had approached early on, and then she backed off, but then she came back to me. She came back to me after she talked to some of her friends and said, I don't identify as but you don't relate to that. I understand it. Um, but I'm and she was the first person I took a photo of, um and so it's I understand that the the idea of it has some quite Western meanings to it and that culturally, it's not something that necessarily he transfers across, you know, all sorts of different cultures. Um, however, having it as a very open invitation to people meant that they were, um that people were able to come into it on their own terms. Uh, there was there was an assumption that everyone and it was lesbian and that I never said it said that that was something that you know that people. So what? What? So the assumption from who? Who? What do you mean? Where did that assumption come from? So you weren't assuming that everybody that that approached was lesbian? But do you mean that everyone that that approach do you think were lesbian? Um, many. Many do identify as lesbian as as well, but there are certainly other identities there. The invitation wasn't around people's sexual orientation as it was around the word or the term. Um, but so you know, I? I was hoping that there'd be a real range of people who, um, who would get on board. And, um, there was a real range, but it wasn't quite as broad as I want to. I would have loved to have seen some gay guys, for example. But I wasn't putting it out in that way. And and so having the conversation, for example, with the Dom Post. I didn't go into huge amounts of depth with with the, um, journalists just because I didn't feel like the public was really going to be able to go there in an article around it. Um, um, yeah. So it was There was it was kind of it was kind of tricky. There was an assumption that everyone's a lesbian and they're not. Yeah, so do you mean when people look at the exhibition and look at the photos? There's an assumption there that that everybody, when they're looking at the photos, there's an assumption that they're looking at lesbians and that the exhibition is a lesbian exhibition. I would certainly go down the track of saying it's a queer exhibition, but that wasn't what I was couching it is. And so in terms of, uh, as a project what you look back now what? What are you pleased with? What would you do differently in terms of it? Yeah, as a how you constructed it as a project. Um, I My personal, um, learning in life is that I need to think a little bit harder. Wake up, have a few more coffees before I necessarily hit those those buttons on Facebook. Um, but you know that from other things that I probably need to still learn that one. and that, um, that it's they Yeah, they they just they just do it. Get your ideas. Um, I'm not a professional photographer. I managed to get exhibitions and galleries. You know, um, to me, it's like it's the The point was to to have a community event to have something that, um, why not have it? Why not have it in Wellington? You know, as people were talking about Meg Allen's work, It's great, You know, it sparked an idea. So, you know, give it a go. Yeah, it's It's all it all it makes for me. What it does is just give me confidence to do other things. Yeah, and nothing was perfect in it, but it But I did it and people were on board with it, and I think people got a lot of people, got something good out of it. And I guess that the obvious kind of next question is have you got thoughts about what you're next thing project might be, or even where if if this might have sparked something in other people. Could you see a logical type? Where could it go next? I mean, I know it could go anywhere, but what would be your thoughts about, uh, about what next? Whether it was you or somebody else pursuing that. Yeah, I would. I would hope that if people were seeing it is, um, as, uh, as ideas of Well, why don't we do this for this group? You know, why don't we do this around these identities or and so on that people just decide to do it and go ahead? You know, it's great. Get get this stuff out there, you know, get the discussions going, if that's that's what the basis of it is. But get people involved, you know? It's, um I've got ideas for some other projects that I want to do that are still portrait related, but quite different to this. And so I won't go into that yet. But, um, there are the community project, more community based projects that I'm also, um, kind of thinking about and and yeah, I want to get off the ground. Um, And as we kind of come to the end of this interview in this discussion. Is there anything that you would like to kind of tell us? Um or that maybe I've not asked about in terms of the the project that you sort of think. Oh, yeah, I Looking back, I would like to just kind of make that clear or tell people a bit more about certain aspects of it. Is there anything you wish you were had been asked? Um, if people if people have got ideas, but they're feeling like they don't really know quite how to go about it, I'd be I'd be happy to talk to people about it. Um, certainly I can only talk from my experience of it. Uh, but it's, you know, it's not as difficult to do these things as sometimes people might think. And, um so I'm pretty easy to get hold of in Wellington, and I'd be really happy to talk people through about doing it. I did do it from way to go. I certainly had some great help along the way. Um, but it was kind of basically just take that next step. And I, I really, really appreciate the people who got on board with the with the project and became participants because I think they were, um uh, quite courageous, actually put themselves out there, Um, quite a vulnerable thing to do. Um, my understanding is that most of them found it really positive for them. I think you're right. As somebody who who has seen the photos and just went as a viewer to the exhibition it that that's what struck me about about how how vulnerable people could potentially be in that in that situation. So, um yeah, to put themselves out there and feel comfortable with people looking at not only photos of them but talking about really personal stuff in their narratives as well. Um, and I guess that's part of how you engaged with them, you know, to get people to that point of feeling that they could, um, be photographed and talk about those kind of things. So I think I guess there's a lot of yeah, just how you approach approach that project as well. And how you the interaction between you and those people, which seems to me to be, you know, vital in that kind of in that kind of project. Oh, completely. It's it's there's a lot of trust in there. And, um, yes, certainly an aim to to really respect where people were coming from and how they wanted to be portrayed. And, uh, I feel quite protective of people, to be honest. And I've been asked if I could go to other places, and I've I've said, um I've said no because I think those places should do their own. And I feel like in the context of Wellington, they are all people who are living in Wellington, so felt like their friends and family were coming to the exhibition as well as the others. But, um but yeah, it was a bit of a cocoon. There's a responsibility, isn't it? Around you've got their identity there and what you then go on to do with it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for, um, talking this afternoon. Um, it's great to hear a bit more about your experience. Um, and how you went about that whole project. And I'm sure we're all looking forward to kind of your next piece of work. So let us know on Facebook as soon as possible. What it is. Thanks, Karen. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series) ; Dominion Post (newspaper) ; Jac Lynch ; Jenny O'Connor ; Karen Harris ; Meg Allen ; Māori ; People ; Photospace gallery ; San Francisco ; Space ; Spark ; Stuff ; Visible - 60 women at 60 (book) ; Wellington ; arts ; balance ; board ; butch ; community ; confidence ; conversation ; diversity ; exhibition ; expression ; facebook. com ; family ; femme ; friends ; gallery ; gay ; gender ; gender identity ; history ; hit ; hope ; identity ; individual ; language ; lesbian ; love ; masculinity ; media ; mentor ; narrative ; other ; photography ; queer ; respect ; running ; sexual orientation ; sexuality ; social ; social media ; storytelling ; straight ; support ; time ; touch ; trust ; understanding ; voice ; volunteer ; wahine toa ; wisdom ; work ; writing. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_jac_lynch.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089657. Jac Lynch also features audibly in the following recordings: "Rainbow Pride Community Honours (2015) - Part 1", "Rainbow Pride Community Honours (2015) - Part 2", "Rainbow Pride Community Honours (2015) - Part 3", "Panel discussion - Queer History in the Making", "Open mic sessions - Queer History in the Making", "Introduction and Opening - Queer History in the Making", "OuterSpaces information evening" and "A Rainbow in the Village (2019)". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.