The title of this recording is "Butch Femme Queer Feminist Elders". It is described as: Audio from the Butch Femme Queer Feminist Elders panel discussion, held at Trades Hall in Grey Lynn on 24 November 2012. It was recorded in Auckland Trades Hall, 147 Great North Road, Grey Lynn, Auckland on the 24th November 2012. This is a recording of an event and features, along with other unidentified speakers, the voices of Marewa Glover and Wai Ho. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 38 minutes, but this may not reflect the actual length of the event. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: Audio from the Butch Femme Queer Feminist Elders panel discussion, held at Auckland Trades Hall in Grey Lynn on 24 November 2012. Special thanks to the panel for allowing their stories to be recorded and shared online. The content in the recording covers the decades 1980s through to the 2010s. A brief summary of the recording is: This summary provides an overview of an enlightening panel discussion titled "Butch Femme Queer Feminist Elders," which took place at the Auckland Trades Hall on November 24, 2012. The panel featured voices of influential community members, including Marewa Glover and Wai Ho, among other speakers, and covered the evolution and experiences of the queer feminist community from the 1980s through to the 2010s in New Zealand. The event began with an acknowledgment of the land's traditional custodians and a welcome to ancestors and attendees from diverse locations. Emphasis was placed on the importance of sharing stories, healing, and celebration. It was noted that such intergenerational contact is scarce, making the occasion particularly significant. Iconic figures Leslie Feinberg and Minnie Bruce Pratt were mentioned as influential elders from abroad, highlighting the need for cultural and historical context for the queer community in New Zealand. Speakers candidly shared their personal journeys, including experiences of discovering identity, navigating relationships, and confronting the challenges and complexities of various intersecting identities. One panelist described the significance of owning one's history through visible queerness and debates of assimilation versus preservation of unique identities. A poignant narrative detailed the elder's journey from a challenging start, marred by child sexual abuse and early independence, to learning lessons around self-exploration, protection, and establishing boundaries. The speaker shared poetic reflections on past relationships, the marks they leave, and the path to empowerment and self-discovery. A key piece of advice offered to younger members was to bravely pursue self-knowledge and self-care. Parenthood was a focal point of discussion, with panelists encouraging members of the LGBTQ+ community to consider parenting as a viable and rewarding option, not to be discounted. The importance of embracing diverse familial structures was stressed, with personal stories illustrating the joys and complexities of creating families through avenues like IVF and other assisted reproductive technologies. One of the speakers delved into their personal transformation from perceiving themselves as butch to embracing a more feminine identity and eventually finding comfort in the term "queer," encompassing the fluidity of their gender expression. They underscored the creative aspect of gender, treating it as both a form of performance and an intrinsic part of one's being. Another narrative explored the sociopolitical implications of coming out, the challenges of fitting into predefined categories, and the liberating nature of inclusive queer and genderqueer communities. The power and impact of Butch-Fem relationships and desire were recounted passionately, illustrating the deeply rooted historical and cultural ties within the LGBTQ+ community. Throughout the panel, the difficulties related to visibility, assimilation, heterosexual privilege, and the sometimes painful shift of identity through transition were examined. A central message was the need to retain connections to one's history and the essential interplay of identities and experiences that contribute to the rich tapestry of LGBTQ+ communities. The discussion underscored the transformative power of community, connection, financial independence, and the necessity to learn about power in various forms. The event concluded with an affirmation of the vibrancy and richness inherent in diverse identities and a call to celebrate and protect the queer history and culture. The full transcription of the recording begins:  Uh um I'd like to pay our respects to and their Children for even more. Our respects also to and who lands we meet on, um, and a big warm welcome to all our ancestors here with us today who enable us to be here, um, acknowledgements to all of you who have come from all different parts of everywhere and for yeah, coming to, um, particularly kind of share share stories, um, and experiences. And also, I guess, to celebrate and heal. So thank you very much. Um, so welcome. Um, this is a public talk. That's a part of a weekend we've been holding, um, talking. Well, people who identify as or book of switch, um, being and feminist. Um, and this is the first time we're kind of aware of this happening in New Zealand. Um, so that's really kind of like, exciting. Historically, I kind of just want to acknowledge that, um, and I also feel kind of in context. We don't really have much intergenerational contact. Um, so I think this is just a really amazing experience to actually. Well, for me, anyway, to come and hear from my elders. Um, and the other thing I was gonna say on the poster where we did the advertising. Does anyone know who that couple was? That's the posters, and the picture is just actually just up here. Um, that's Lesley Fey and many Bruce Pratt who are two really amazing butin elders from America. Um, but I kind of feel like in New Zealand, we're doing this stuff without necessarily having the books or the community or the culture to place us here. Um and so these are my elders that I found from overseas, but I'm really excited to be talking to elders that are from here and have been doing this stuff for a while. Um, so we can figure out how to locate ourselves right here. Um and I'm really hoping this is the beginning of more community and more connection and with this stuff, so I just kinda wanna thank you all for coming and being a part of it. Um uh, thank you very much for the invitation. I It took me a little while to sort of go. What? Uh, I would like to acknowledge some of our other elders in the room. I haven't seen you for a while. Well, I saw you last week. Um, so I think you wanted me to talk for, like, 10 minutes. And, um, I'll try and do that. And I haven't really planned anything. Um, I might start with a poem and and then that sort of leads into a few things. I thought you wanted some pills of wisdom or something that might be useful. Um, this is called scars. Extreme Sportster. Compare with pride their marked bodies, proof of their adventures, each one a rush. I've had adventures, some extreme, where nicks and chunks or a slice has left me scarred. There's a small spot high right thigh where a belt buckle dug in during sex. It darkens in the sun like that relationship one summer long but dark is a nuclear winter. My perfect nipple, too, was trash that year, pierced with gold too heavy A white road left where it travelled out. There used to be a crescent moon on my shoulder. It's disappeared like the friends that put it there. A relationship that burned deep, went pussy, healed and slowly faded away. That's all that's left of some people. Other people they've scarred Kilda, Sorry to start on such a heavy note. But, um, I do have, um I am a survivor of child sexual abuse, and so I didn't have a very good sort of start into the whole sex thing. And then, um, was pretty much out on my own, living in the world as an independent at 16, and, uh, back then, um, I'm a bit sensitive about my age. I don't really like to say how old I am, but I will, because I have been invited as an elder. I'm 51. Um, so yeah, sorry. She said spring chicken. Yeah. Uh, so back then, being sort of cast into the world in the seventies as a 16 year old to just basically be an adult. Um, nowadays, people sort of don't think of doing that to their kids. Um, back then it was quite common. And, you know, you were that you were an adult, but totally unprepared. Uh, you know, and had no idea of how to how to cope. Um, I used to think of myself that I was just like, you know, in the at the fear. And they have those shooting things where you shoot the ducks Well, I was one of the little ducks, and that's what it was like. I was just like in that game, and people would take pot shots at me and occasionally, some of them, quite a lot of them got lucky. Um, I wasn't so lucky, though, because I really hadn't, Um I hadn't any idea about what I wanted in life, uh, and what turned me on and what I might be interested in, But I guess I learned a lot from all of those experiences. And, um, and you do experiment and and I. I think you know the main thing. I would like to encourage your younger ones to, um be careful. Be protect yourself and look after yourself. Um, and each other, but particularly, you know, try to, um you need to be brave. Uh, you do need to work out. Perhaps I was gonna say, work out what really, really turns you on. But that's kind of hard. And so you will experiment, and you will have relationships that don't quite gel. Um, you're not quite compatible. Um, and and then, you know, you have another relationship, and it might be better to her mother and her. Um, it might be better to think about what your limits are. You know, um, I was once asked, you know. Well, you know what? What are you into? Like you know, anything? Oh, OK. If I can do anything to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please do anything to me. You know, I was that eager. Um, and and so she said, Well, can I cut your hair off? I'm not. Um no, no, no. You can't cut my hair off, OK, so you do have boundaries, you know, can I leave you leave scars? Um, no, no, No scars. You know, So think about the things you know, What are the boundaries? What can people not do to you and maybe work backwards as as a good way and rather than OK, what are you into? What should we do? Uh, what should we do in this scene or that scene? Or, um uh, so think about what people can't do to you. That's, uh maybe easier. Um, so the other thing I'll just read another poem here, Um, which is just about there being lots of different cultures. And I've moved in and out and belonged to a number of different cultures. This one's called Stuck Between worlds. It's quite an old poem now. Then, can I be 9 to 5 Maori? A 24 7 slave, a vegetarian who sometimes eat, eats meat, speaks two languages but never in the same room. Does that family, like a tourist, leave my lesbian sexuality on the doorstep with the shoes at the assert? Feminist values of equality for all but crave the dominant of my master. Can I weave together these strands? Or do I take left right, left buffeted by these contrary identities and, um, and that's pretty much what it's been like lots of different identities in this very modern contemporary world. You can move in one culture for a while, and and then you end up in another one, and and I feel comfortable going to the different ones. Um, as long as I know who I am and I so I can come here and be with you today and then most of the week, I'm a mum. Uh, and that's another curl of wisdom I did want to pass on is, um, don't miss out on that. Just, um, and don't leave it too late. I'm very lucky that we have amazing technology these days. Otherwise, I would have missed out on having my daughter, and she is one of the best things that's ever happened to me. Um, but I left it really, really late as lots of lesbians and gay and by transsexual people. Maybe not so much the buy. But, um, you know, do if you don't have really a source of sperm, so to speak right there, you know, um but, you know, even even gay guys think No, that's not part of being a gay man. Or, uh, you know, it's not part of our culture as, um LGBTI, but it can be, and it should be. And as Maori, of course, it it definitely is. So please don't see that as not part of your world. We need to be parents. We need more diverse people to be parents so that there will be more Children in the world who are OK with that. And we can grow that diversity. And that's about something we pass on to kids as well. So, um, my daughter is, um um uh, artificial. Um Well, she's IVF and X So she was a IVF baby. Means she was, uh, in the, you know, in the little thingy, whatever it's called Petri dish. Um, but we also had to do I which is intros. Sperm injection is fantastic technology these days, but, um, you know, So it is there, and even if you don't want to, like, do it naturally, there's lots of ways to be a parent. Don't wait for the white picket fence and the perfect partner, and they may not come along. In fact, they may not come along until you've got the child. Um, I was very lucky. Um, I did have a a gay friend who agreed to be a sperm donor, and and then, after almost a year of trying, um, it didn't work. And then we ran out of banked sperm, and, um, and by that time, I was being a bit naughty and playing around and experimenting and other sort of, um, and another culture. And I asked, um, a guy I was playing with if he would be a donor for me, And, um So then he trotted into the clinic and deposited, and, uh, it worked First time, so and we're still together today, and, um, that's nearly 10 years. Not anything I ever would have thought would happen. Sometimes you just have to be open to the unimaginable. Um And, um, So, um, yeah, uh, we don't We don't, uh, identify as heterosexuals, and it kind of really annoys me. That's the way everyone will see us. But, you know, um, who cares? Um, our daughter is what's most important. And, um, you know, we know who we are. We're quite comfortable with that. Um, and the focus at the moment is on her Not so much on the sexual identity side of ourselves. It's all about work and raising money and developing and having a financial. Um, financial security is very important. Please learn about money. Um, the way to look after yourself to protect yourself is to, uh, develop your independence. That means your financial independence. So you're not dependent on other people. You've got to learn about power. One last poem. Um, because you mentioned about the book. And so this is from the book indigenous. Hm. I can't remember the stories of I can't remember the title stories of something About indigenous sexuality stories. That's right. It's a great book, and it's often on trade me for, like, a dollar or something. So this is called Pound Me. There used to be a club in Wellington for the pound. I don't know if you you might remember the pound. No. Yeah. Meal loud with discourse. You talk sex, Say, fuck me. Spill sluttish secrets Later at the pound chokingly thick with smoke, throbbing hot with beat we dance around each other You lanky, angular boy me lace softened girl choreographed fantasy You packing tight white fronts dick and thrusted me bowing forward as lifted. Ready, rapid, playful ramming. You dragging me audience to your desire went through We leave sweat calls quickly in the 4 a. m. air You gentlemen escort polite me, damsel enthralled, Waiting. See what? II? I guess I'll just do a little bit of a a personal personal story, Um, of my experiences, Um, and some thoughts that I've had throughout the day. Um, like, I feel, um you know Oh, an elder crikey. Haven't really done anything to kind of, uh, warrant that, um, market respect. Um, and I certainly want to, um, acknowledge. You know, those who, um, are much older and much wiser than myself. Um, and you know, particularly, um, as a source of inspiration for me has been, um, the lesbian feminist women who really fought around the visibility issues, which, um, are still, you know, it still important. Still very important for so many of us. So I want to acknowledge that and and talking about, um, you know, but trans identity kind of space. Um, I want to acknowledge that those you know, those other perspectives are really important as well within our communities. Um, OK, so on to I guess, my little personal jaunt. Um, I came out in 1986 which was homosexual law reform year. And there was a lot of people outing themselves, um, as a political act, which was very important at that time. And, um, there was no space for, um, uncertainty. So, um, you know, you had to out yourself, um, which was very important. And you had to out yourself the whole way. There was no, um, space for sitting in between for questioning, Um, at that time, and I'm really glad that now there is much more space for, um for different kinds of questioning. and, um, people going on their journey at whatever time and space they they can. You know? Um, so I came out wholesale to everyone I knew at, um, a student conference, including my sister, and I saw the look on her face at the back of the room thinking I probably should have spoken to her first. Um, but, you know, that was interesting. And shortly after that, I, um you know, I was chatting to some elders. Um, And I said, how do I meet other women? And, um, they were like, you need to cut your hair and dress like a dyke. So, um, you know, that's how we identified ourselves in those days and, you know, made ourselves, um, visible. So, um, this is a picture of me at about I've got props. This is a picture of me, um, at about 19. Very er, razor head, kind of haircut, kind of punk, goth. Kind of don't fuck with me. Kind of chewed. And, um, it was it was very good and very empowering. I loved it. Um, and there was always for me gender. There's always been an element of of format toity about it. and an element of creativity about it, I guess. Which I've always really enjoyed. So that was kind of playing with that. Um, after a while, I began to feel like that wasn't really me that I. I was kind of playing with something. Um, that didn't feel quite natural. And I began over time to embrace more and more sort of being, um, the sort of stuff. I didn't have the language for it at the time, but that's what happened. Um, and these days, I kind of see myself as I. I call myself a queer because that kind of embraces everything that I am to me. Um, I'm not a high fame because I'm far too lazy, you know? Like it's very time consuming and expensive, you know, and all you know, or speak to women who can, um, be there. Um, but, you know, Yeah, I think I'm more like a low down dirty or something. Um, so yeah, so I've just I've just written down some ideas and things. Um, and you know, if I've talked too long, just tell me to move on. Um, so I've got some photos from different times. Um, interesting hearing about the sort of fractured identity. Um, references. Um, when I turned 35 I kind of decided I created this. I had this this birthday party where I had a a come as your alter ego party, and I created this character for myself called Ruby Red. And so that was that's who dressed up in this kind of high feminist thing. And, um and then I decided, Oh, actually, that's who I am. That's who I'm going to aspire to be, you know? So this sort of powerful kind of person. Um, and there's some photos here. I did a sort of take off of the two, you know, I'm holding my own hand and that sort of stuff and different looks. And I guess at that point in my life, I had, you know, quite sort of fractured identities that were affecting my mental health. You know, I, um I'm bisexual. I'm half Jewish, which is, you know, in this country there's not very many Jews. Um, and, you know, I sort of felt like it didn't really belong anywhere. I felt quite marginalised, and quite, you know, I if I pictured myself, I was all these different things. It didn't quite fit together, and I felt like I didn't really belong anywhere. So I was kind of playing with that stuff. And there's some photos here of, um, me dressed as an Orthodox Jewish woman, Um, lighting Sabbath candles. But there's only, like, one candle. And in this photo there's a classic, um, lesbian feminist Jewish anthology of writing called Nice Jewish Girls. And so I'm holding that book up. But I'm kind of looking sideways in sort of a bit doubtfully, so, you know, because I didn't really fit anywhere. So I was playing with all that sort of stuff. Um, And for me, you know, being part of this wider sort of, um, community, I guess of, um, you know, but trans gender queer, um, people is really liberating. It's really powerful, you know? I, I love it. It's really exciting. Um, and that's where I've come to feel more comfortable. Like I can be all of who I am. I can change. I can be different things at different times. Um, and I don't have to kind of justify that. I can just enjoy it. Um, but I think where I became to, you know, where I realised? Um, perhaps I'm a I did some reading about, um it was from American writings, and it was describing. It might have even been Joan Nestle or someone describing that experience of being a film where you know you can you can sense this butch energy across the room. And, you know, I've always been one of those those people that sort of gone weak at the knees around that kind of energy, you know? And, um, I really enjoyed it. And, um, I just feel like I'm rambling, so I'll go back to the pictures. Um, this is a dark, dark ball. Probably about 2004. 2005. Something like that. Where, um my partner and I were really doing this sort of gangster gangster mole. Kind of, um, character. You know, this is really good fun. It's always been good fun for me. Um, yeah. I think something that's, um, really important for me about this, this topic and and, you know, having this conversation at this point in time was really good, because, um, but fear, identities and and gender expressions have been historically, always part of our communities, you know? And there's been times where, um, you know, perhaps those expressions have been a bit more silenced, um, or a bit more not popular or whatever than at other times. And I think as queer identity become more accepted and more sort of allowed into the mainstream. It's gonna be really, um, important for us to also have those subcultures and to be able to, um, retain those kinds of histories, histories, identities. Um, that is so much part of queer culture and queer community. Um, and that sort of stands in in a nice contrast to, um, you know, being assimilated into the mainstream. Some people are really happy to be, um, you know, I'm just the same as everyone else. Um, even though I'm gay kind of thing. And then there's a lot of us who you know, Um, see all these identities as really positive. And don't I don't even want to be mainstream, You know, I want to be all of who I am and and, um, enjoy being part of this world. I think that's probably enough to start with. Thank you. Can I just ask one question you use the term high. What's funny? Have been lost. Probably generally associated with, um, high heels. Um, lipstick. Ok, I guess it's my turn. It's a bit nerve wracking sitting here, actually, especially listening to all these amazing women talk before me. Um, I'm Annie. Um, I turned 50 in September, and I and I just love that. I feel like I'm fabulous at 50. Um, I Sometimes I identify as high fame sometimes I'm just them. Sometimes I'm just me, um, but I came out in the early eighties, uh, when I was in university in Christchurch. Um, and my I was taking feminist studies at the time, and, um, although I was fucking women from time to time, I didn't identify as, um is lesbian. Even so. Then I started meeting lots of amazing lesbian women. Um, I hate that I just said lesbian women because, you know, anyway, lesbians are women obviously don't need that qualify. But, um, So I met, uh, lots of women and, um, and my partner at the time. Or I got together with Jen, who was, um, doing a PhD in feminist studies. So we ended up living together and had a fabulous time. Um, she she was kind of androgynous. Um, and I was, um I didn't really I think I was always a bit girly, but, um, I thought I was quite butch, like whenever we did any kind of, um, psychological profiling, where you had to look at your personality, you know, which just measures masculinity versus femininity. Even though I'm very feminine, and I feel very feminine. I'm actually, um I'm way more masculine in those tests than most men turn out to be. Um, and I think that's a dominant A thing about dominance. Um, so anyway, so we had a lovely life for for quite a few years. I think about eight or nine years we lived together. And then, um, And during that time, I was exploring my sexuality. My friend Tonya was an art student, um, and a lesbian. And we were best friends. And she did, um, a perspective on Butch and fem. And at the time I was reading, um, I discovered Joan Nestle's book a butch fem desire, and I just inhaled it. I could probably still quote lots of it right now. Um, please don't ask me to just in case I can't. But, um, for me, that book was huge, because I began to realise that, um, maybe I wasn't so much after all, and that the people and the qualities that attracted me and a woman were masculine. I loved the masculine energy. Um, I get all wobbly and hot. And when a really butch diet walked in the room, I'd be, uh I wouldn't be able to talk properly or anything like that. Um, and I was just Yeah. So anyway, Jen and I eventually split up, and and I, um, got myself a the biggest butchers diet I could find in in Christchurch. And, um and the passion that we had together was actually incredible. For the first time in my life, I think I was really breathless all the time. It was Yeah, it was just an incredibly passionate time. Unfortunately, it, um, grew into a a very, um, uh, violent relationship. She was She had, um, lots of violence and abandonment issues, and, um and yeah, and the relationship broke down. It actually took me a long, long time to escape the relationship in the end. So it became really ugly and tainted and and all that. But anyway, um, so lucky for me, I met Chris online at a place called butch film dot com, Actually, so, um, we were quite naive, actually, um, about online stuff. And, um, I'd had gotten my first computer that I could actually even get online at the time. So, um, I'd go in there and, you know, we chat away, and it was good fun. And we, um we discovered that we, um that we loved each other after a while, which people find really bizarre that you can. He he he was living in Washington State. Chris is trans FTM female to male transsexual. It's OK for me to say so. He was living in Washington and I was living in Christchurch and, um after, I think 11 months, he sold up everything and came to Christchurch, which was a massive risk and a bit scary. Um, so but the really end, the thing that I remember about him coming to Christchurch was being at the airport, and I've been at the airport lots of times to meet women partners and generally get disapproving looks. But this time this man came out and, um and I just burst into tears. Of course, because I'm a crier, and we had this huge hug, and when when we came up for ear, every person around you had a lovely smile on their face. So I really felt really acutely at that moment, that heterosexual privilege that Adrian Rich, I think, is it talks about, um and I felt I didn't feel good about it. It didn't sit well with me. Um, and actually, I used to be really, um I used to love the lesbian community in Christchurch. But once I sort of realised that I was, um, gaining all this heterosexual privilege that I was actually quite unwanted for me. I didn't actually want it. I liked being a dike, and I liked people realising that I was a dike, except for those times when you were invisible. And I, too, actually went through the short hair thing to, you know, really related to your story. I still looked hot, though, anyway, um, so So So that was really big for me, that heterosexual privilege. And, um, so I actually began to retreat from the lesbian community. At that point, I never felt pushed out at all um I just felt like I didn't really belong anymore. So I exiled myself. I guess, in a way, um, anyway, so we went to America after a bit, because we, um because anyway, the immigration requirements were that we it was impossible for us to to show that we had a long enough duration relationship for him to stay. So So, um, because I'm a teacher, I could get work easily in America. So, um, so I did. And, um went over there and discovered the butch film community there and, uh, met amazing met our best friends or people who were, um uh, um what do you call it? Best man and all that sort of thing. Um, with the people that own butch dot com. So our life was all our life was all but and it was amazing. It was really wonderful. Like all of a sudden, we had lots of parties and we had lots of people who were who are just like us. And I've never felt so peace, peace, full of peace, as I had as I did then, with all these butchers and all these films and lots of trans people around And it was, um, the most wonderful time. We spent three years involved heavily involved in the film community and to a lesser degree in the B DS M community. Not Butch necessarily. But, you know, just B DS M community there. And, um, yeah, we had a marvellous time. So when we came back, um, it was quite a shock. Really? Because, um, we're back in New Zealand and well, and plus, um, we moved to Auckland rather than to Christchurch because I knew I could get work in Christ in Auckland rather than Christchurch. So and I had some family here. So, um, we, um suddenly we went from this amazing, euphoric place full of butchers and fins to Auckland. We we didn't know anybody really, and certainly didn't know any queers. And we have It's kind of just turned completely around because Chris's job is quite high profile. Um, you know, he's, you know, you remember Chris when you see him walking down the street and people people do remember him. So, um, we've actually become very closeted since we've been back. And we live the life of a straight couple now, which is awful when I think of the the bloody heterosexual privilege all over again. Um, and that we have we that we can do that. And I I and I felt some guilt for quite a while about, um, other people that weren't able to access that kind of privilege. Anyway, so, um, here we are today. But luckily, I have met a few butchers and a few films, and, um, I believe it was clear they put you. Yeah. I love you. Yeah, my friend Clare in Wellington, you probably know Clare. Um, she's just a huge breath of fresh air. So she's like my main fem friend. Really? So I treasure those in particular fem relationships. Um, so, uh, I'm not quite sure where I'm going now, um, there's probably about all for the moment. Thank you. I got a big voice, so I don't think you're gonna You could probably leave it outside, and you're gonna get it. So, you know, um, I didn't plan for this, and I'm really sorry. So, um, she probably told me what a week or so ago, but, um, I probably forgot a lot about that, but, uh, we'll carry on nonetheless. Um, hi. My name is Chris. I'm American. So sorry about that. Uh, she probably told most of what I was gonna say. Thanks, baby. But, um, I guess I could talk a little bit about transitioning and for me, um, what it means and how it's affected me. And it's been a roller coaster ride, but I think that's pretty much my existence. And I suppose that's a good thing because you learn a lot, you do a lot, and it's cool. But, uh, I guess personally, for me, my identity is more of a fluid, you know, it doesn't really stop. It's not either, or because, um, I don't think life works that way. So, um, you'd have, uh I guess living my life as as a lesbian was I don't know, I would say difficult, but definitely different, because, um, it's the opposite of what it is now. I mean, as a dyke, you you ain't sneaking up on anybody. Um, with what you are, you know, no one's gonna wonder. Hm. I wonder that a lesbian, you know, or or but Yeah, definitely. You know, uh, but as Trans, uh, not only did I lose that identity as female but also identity as queer just lost it. It was, like, almost sad. Like something died because, you know, women would see you and they'd see you as a dude. And then, um, yeah, which is what I want. But you lost in the queer community like Lisbon, you'd see somebody, you know, you're gay eyes boo boo boo. And you see him. You know, you give them that look like it suck and like you like, Yeah, you know, or or worse that that will hurt saying, you know, you get that that look. But, um, you want them over anyways, you do. You do because, you know, especially in the tattoo industry, when they come in for tattoos and stuff. You want to say that, you know, Especially when, um, you get, um, soft Butcher. Butch, come in and you know it. And you, you feel it and everything. And, uh, you can't really go can't just out yourself. That part is kind of bad, but, um, I think I didn't do it for that, you know? Just did it because I needed to. Honestly, what? Um, I would definitely recommend book going up to the, um look it up online. The butch film community It's good, gives you lots of resources and talks more about the dynamics of of, uh, transition and queer and the fluidity. Flu fluidity. There you go. Thanks. Very teacher. It's always good, right? But, um Fuck. I was really hoping people would just ask me questions. And if you want to do that because I think I just lose track and I It's hard for me to really, um, put words together unless somebody has a specific thing to say. You know, like, you know, questions. Yeah. Thanks. You have this going down, OK? The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1980s ; 2010s ; Adrienne Rich ; Auckland ; Auckland Trades Hall ; BBC ; BDSM ; Butch Femme Queer Feminist Elders (2012) ; Butch-Femme ; Christchurch ; Christmas ; France ; God ; In vitro fertilisation (IVF) ; Joan Nestle ; Job ; Joe ; LGBT ; Leslie Feinberg ; Marewa Glover ; Minnie Bruce Pratt ; Māori ; People ; Pound nightclub ; Space ; Stuff ; The Persistent desire: a femme-butch reader ; United States of America ; Wai Ho ; Wellington ; abuse ; access ; airport ; ancestors ; androgynous ; audience ; birthday ; bisexual ; books ; boundaries ; butch ; butch dyke ; change ; children ; closeted ; coming out ; community ; conference ; connect ; conversation ; creativity ; culture ; dance ; design ; desire ; diet ; diversity ; dominant ; drag ; dyke ; elders ; energy ; equality ; escape ; experiment ; face ; family ; fantasy ; fat ; fear ; femininity ; feminism ; femme ; film ; finances ; fitness ; fluidity ; friends ; fun ; gay ; gender ; guilt ; hair ; hate ; health ; herstory ; heterosexual ; heterosexual privilege ; high femme ; high heels ; history ; hit ; homosexual ; homosexual law reform ; hug ; identity ; immigration ; inspiration ; intergenerational ; internet ; internet dating ; invisibility ; journey ; language ; lesbian ; listening ; love ; mainstream ; masculine ; masculinity ; mental health ; news ; older age ; other ; parenting ; parents ; parties ; passion ; peace ; plan ; podcast ; politics ; posters ; power ; privilege ; profile ; queer ; questioning ; reading ; relationships ; respect ; sad ; scene ; security ; sexual abuse ; sexual identity ; sexuality ; shoes ; shooting ; smile ; straight ; survivor ; takatāpui ; tattoo ; teacher ; teaching ; technology ; time ; trans ; transgender ; transition ; travel ; university ; values ; violence ; visibility ; voice ; walking ; wisdom ; women ; work ; writing ; youth. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/butch_femme_queer_feminist_elders.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089370. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.