The title of this recording is "Ruth Busch and Jan Wilson (1)". It was recorded in Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington on the 16th March 2011. This is an interview with Jan Wilson and Ruth Busch. The interviewer is Gareth Watkins. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 19 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Ruth Busch and Jan Wilson from New Zealand talk about attending the human rights conference. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: The podcast, featuring an engaging discussion with Jan Wilson and Ruth Busch, captures their valuable perspectives on attending a human rights conference. It was recorded in Wellington, New Zealand, on March 16, 2011, at a duration of 19 minutes, documenting the struggle of lesbian elders and the LGBTI community for recognition and rights in the context of ageing and health care. Wilson and Busch, representing the Lesbian Elders Village group in Auckland, conducted a workshop addressing critical issues such as the invisibility of queer populations, the lack of specialized services, and safety concerns in traditional retirement homes. They emphasize the challenges same-sex couples face in obtaining accommodation like a double bed in aged care facilities, which is symbolic of broader societal discrimination. Despite advances in LGBTI rights, they express a firm stance against being forced back into the closet in old age and highlight the government's neglect in addressing ageing LGBTI community needs in its reports. The recording dwells upon the poignant personal experiences individuals have had when their partners entered aged care facilities, often being dismissed as insignificant by staff and excluded from end-of-life matters by homophobic family members. Wilson and Busch articulate the fear and reality of ageing solitarily in a heteronormative society and underscore the importance of solidarity within the community to combat isolation and discrimination. They critically analyze the inadequacies of the present legal frameworks, noting the discrimination embedded in the Civil Unions Act and the conflation of same-sex marriages from abroad to civil unions within New Zealand. They advocate for full equality, pointing out the inconsistencies in how various international marital statuses are recognized and the need for legislation that aligns with human rights principles, including the right to affordable housing and quality health care. The interview dives into deeper societal issues, scrutinizing ageism within the LGBTI community itself. Youth is often glorified, marginalizing older members and contributing to economic disparities that affect the potential to plan for retirement. They also raise concerns about the unrealistic expectations around ageing, which discourages honest discussions about the needs and rights of older LGBTI individuals. Positively, Wilson and Busch share information about the Lesbian Elders Village collective, a group dedicated to forming a supportive community for older lesbians in Auckland. The collective actively engages in planning and advocating for a sustainable community living model for its members. The engagement at the human rights conference is seen as a critical step in driving the conversation forward and raising awareness about the unmet needs of older lesbians. The podcast ends with a powerful forward-looking message, asking listeners to contribute to creating a world in which old age is celebrated within safe, accepting communities. Wilson and Busch call for accountability and action to ensure that the same struggles they fought decades prior do not persist for future generations. In summary, the recording is a crucial snapshot of the ongoing dialogue surrounding the rights and visibility of the ageing LGBTI population in New Zealand, encapsulating poignant personal narratives, the battle for equal rights, and the quest for dignity in old age. It candidly captures their desire for greater societal and governmental recognition and the formation of inclusive and respectful spaces for living out their golden years. The full transcription of the recording begins:  Well, I'm Jan and we came to the conference as part of a group of, uh, women from the lesbian elders Village, um, group in Auckland. And we came to run a workshop, which we did this morning, in which Ruth has actually already been archived talking about some of those issues. So And also, um, it's the first chance I've had to come to a lesbian games, even though I wasn't here for the game. So yeah, so to be around other gay and lesbian people to enjoy the conference. And, uh, yeah, what are the issues with ageing? Queer populations, Invisibility, no services. Lack of safety. Shall I count the ways, uh, mainstreaming to the point of, uh, utterly not acknowledging that lesbians are gays or anyone in LGBTI, uh, could have anything outside of what your heteronormative population needs would be. And the impossibility of getting a double bed in a retirement home for you, you and your lover to go there. Lots of things. I think it's hard enough for a heterosexual couple to get a double bed. But I imagine yeah, it would be impossible for, um, functioning as a lesbian in a kind of lesbian positive way. Like for many of us, we came out, you know, like, uh, I came out in about 1979. We fought all those battles. I don't intend to go back into the closet. In my old age, I'm 67 years old. None of that those services exist. Now that, uh, one of the things we reported on was that the government has done many reports on the ageing in this country. Not one of them has made any reference to the LGBTI community. This all sounds very scary. It is very scary. I think it's a very scary thought to um like, a number of people in our group have had personal experiences of having a partner put into having to go into an aged care facility. And they're not even at all being recognised as a significant person in their life. When they lived together for years and, uh, loved together so much, the birth family then gets the control, like in one of the cases, that the family was really homophobic. She wasn't even contacted when her lover of many years died like immediate. You know that day because right, and they buried she wasn't invited to the funeral either. And those are the stories that existed in a in the seventies. Um, you know, but this happened. This happened three or four years ago. So, you know. So that's what I'm saying. We fought those battles as younger women and we don't want to. It's so clear, we are going to get old. We need to have places that are lesbian, positive or and, uh, safe. And one of the things we mentioned in our workshop is if you just a month ago or less, um, Juliet Lee and Lindsay Kerner were burnt out and magnify heads. And so, um, ageing lesbians, isolated ageing lesbians are really, uh, at risk unless we have community. And to me, that's one of the the things that really sticks out is the whole isolation thing and actually going back into the closet. Um, in this day and age now, how do people cope with that? Well, with great difficulty. Um, uh, if if you have to. If you're in the unfortunate position where you have to find yourself in an institution, then there isn't an institution that will manage it. Um, and one of our members of our collective is in a gerontology nurse, and there's a survey that is given to everybody, uh, who's wanting to go into aged care. And there are absolutely no questions in this highly regarded survey of 260 questions that ask about, um, anything that would allow a person to say that they have a same sex partner. Nothing about sexual orientation, nothing about family of choice. Nothing. 260 questions internationally recognised instrument for as they have Marmite on their toast in the morning. So So why is that? And because I mean invisibility. Uh, well, I mean, someone was saying this morning, you know that John Keith thinks we should be grateful to him because he's not rolling back. Uh, the what I see as discrimination that we sustained under the Labour government. I don't I'm going to talk tomorrow about how I think the civil unions act is, um, totally discriminatory and a booby prize. And we wouldn't accept any other group being placed in the position that the LGBTI community is placed in in civil unions, like I'm a Jewish lesbian. Imagine if we said everyone in this country can get married, but Jews and Jews have to take civil unions. Uh, I would hope maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, I would hope that people would really be upset about that. So what allows us to be the only ones? You know, Marilyn, We talked about separate but equal. We those of us who have come from the States. No. You know, they always said that segregation was separate but equal. But when you looked at the reality, there was nothing equal about it. And there is nothing equal about civil unions in this country. As a matter of fact, my belief is the only reason they've given us any of this is almost like a neoconservative thing they want, you know, instead of us looking to the state for a benefit, we have to look to our partners for and maintenance. Instead of looking to the state, we look to our partners to divide up property. Ok, You know, we look to our partners to pay child support. There's nothing wrong with that. But give us full equality. Don't give us, uh you know, the parts that are the responsibility parts, they don't give us any of the rights. You know, and I think that that's the problem. And I really like I resent that the Human Rights Commission supported the civil Unions Act. Of all of the groups that should have stood for human rights for LGBTI community, it was the Human Rights Commission. And, uh, you know, I. I look I mean, the wonderful thing about gay men in 1986 prior to 1986 is there was a refusal to accept a differential in the age of consent. They said no, we're not taking incrementalism. This is our right as human beings. And we should have learned something from that. Civil unions is a kind of incremental thing. And but guess what? Nobody is going to re look at it again. So and it made some sense when no other country is married. But we have the most perverse situation, which is people can marry in Canada now. And when they come home, their relationships are treated as civil unions so they get less. Whereas I, I don't know if you realise, but if you marry as a polygamous couple in a country where polygamy is allowed, your polygamous marriage is recognised in New Zealand. But if you marry In Canada, where same sex marriages are legal, your same sex marriage is recognised as a civil union, not as a marriage. So I mean, I'm not against. I mean, just look at the disparity in that and strangely enough, and I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to at all. But transsexuals can marry in the sex of their nominated as long as they hold themselves out as heterosexual couples, you know, And that's the phrase of the law. Hold themselves out to be heterosexual couples. Well, aren't we trying to sabotage that kind of binary? So I guess in years to come when there will be either civil union or married gay and lesbian couples ageing aged care premises Will will need to address that issue, won't they? At some point, we're doing it already. It's not addressing it. We confront ageism as well as homophobia because people don't want to acknowledge that anyone who's old might have any sort of sexual life, let alone someone with a with the same partner. So I think it's, um, not only actually, someone said to me after our presentation this morning, you know, one of the issues is that it costs more for them to make a room big enough for a double bed. So you know, there's this whole issue of ageism ageism in the in the LGBT community, too. That has to be confronted, I think. III. I guess, though, like with sexuality, it's not just about sex. And for for some people, it's it's it's about their whole being so Yeah, but, you know, like we were hearing from this woman, uh, who presented after us in Australia and II, I would I'm not quite sure how it's done there, but, like, 30 or 40% of all Australian, I would think it's true here as well our church based retirement places. And so you're absolutely opting in to, like, I would rather you know, that they didn't pay those people that they actually gave to more secular based um uh, more inclusive, uh, retirement places. If, like, if we had money, we would put this together, we could. It's the lesbians are poor. Lesbians are invisible. Nobody wants to be old. Uh, you know, in even the gay or lesbian community and, uh, well, actually, and I, I apologise for cutting you off before we were about to talk about ageism in the lesbian and gay community. Tell me about that. Well, I mean, youth culture, and you see it all the time and and, you know, the the lesbian community. Just because of the kind of economics the gender economics tends to earn less money. And, uh, especially if many of us have Children, too. You know that we there's a kind of difference now for many of us older lesbians. We brought our Children into our community. And so there's all of that. I just think that, uh, it's a yeah, I think there is a lot of ageism and in in in our communities, a lot of, um, I don't know, extolling of the young and the beautiful came up as a very brief part of the conversation after the, um workshop this morning when one of our group said, How many of you feel old or believe would label yourself as old and nobody wanted to say that they were old, Um, even though they might be in their sixties or even seventies. Nobody wanted to say that they were old to be old. And so, yeah, um, I think it does exist there. And I think when we've been at the big Gay Out and had a store, people have who have come to talk and look at some of the stuff we're doing and some of the planning, which is really best if people look at forming a community, probably from the forties and fifties onward. Uh, people just are afraid to look at that whole, um, time of their life. But to give you an example, like we, um, put in this abstract at the conference and they put us on a stream called other. So we said to them, uh, bad enough to be invisible in the, um, straight world. But really, you know, one expects that when you're coming to AAA LGBTI human rights conference that you might not be other right, so immediately and and I I pointed out I said, You know, uh, it's not just drug and alcohol and HIV that are the well being issues in in our communities. But, uh so then we got they rearranged and, well, we're well being too. So we feel better, you know, But But that's just an example, like a student, you know, I mean, we're all gonna age. It's not actually an other situation. It's like in every person's gonna age, right? But if we're lucky and you see the government calls for the government reports all call for people staying within the community. Well, we want to stay within the community, and we think there are analogies already developed in a. There's a housing. There's all we can't even get money to get a need to assessment together. Worse than that, they are a gay and lesbian gerontologists, and it just isn't the flavour of the month, even for them to do this work. And so or there's no money in it. You know, for, um, for the that's a problem. So who's preventing it from happening? Well, I think I think this is It's a human rights issue. The yoga card to principal make it really clear that, uh, affordable housing, access to affordable housing for us and access to, uh, you know, quality health care. These are basic human rights. These are basic human rights principles. So, So, first and foremost, it's a government that could fund this or at least make a commitment to imagine having a consultation with our communities, But, no, they haven't done anything like that. So, uh, I think it I mean, we could start on individual levels, But let's take it up to really the place where maybe this there should be, you know, because we want affordable housing too. So not, you know, there are a lot of listening who won't have the money to buy into great Lynn, right? And and so it needs to be open to to all women with every class. So on on a positive note, the the collective Tell me about that. Well, we've, um We've been meeting for four or five years. We have plans. We have, uh, quite an active core group and more than 100 other people who are on the list. We have a website and and incorporation at the top. So the reality and the possibility are there. We already are a community who support one another, but who live scattered throughout Auckland and a few further north. Um, and we are really actively trying to work towards, uh, having a sustainable community in which we can live so having the bricks and mortar and the land as well. But already. We have a community which is, um, trying to It's a virtual community. Yeah. And anyway, it is positive for us. Bringing this to the conference and beginning a conversation which must happen is a really steps that we're feeling really pleased that this is because we had a lot of people at the workshop, and they a lot of people who are interested from other parts of the country and who will stay in touch and some possible seeds of maybe getting some move towards the needs assessment. So, yeah, I think just beginning to to walk and beginning to, um, make the unspeakable speak. Yeah. So And I think that's what we thought. If if that could happen, if we could even begin to, you know, we were talking about this, um, what is the function of the state? It's to enhance citizens dignity. We are the citizens, just like the rest of them. And, you know, that's the The state should take steps to enhance our dignity. That's the whole human rights take on law and the function of the state. So and I think it's good we didn't actually say this at the workshop, but It's good for us to know that as this community and collective of old lesbians, um however we wish. But I'd like to describe us that way. We go on hikes, so us walk the to crossing. Uh, we do things together that are not all old focused things in the traditional sense of the word. So we do things together and we enjoy things together. And we live here. Just, uh, one final question before the caucuses begin. Uh, if we skip forward 30 years and somebody's listening back to this recording in 30 years time, what would you say to them? I hope that in every sizable community in New Zealand, apart from a apart from anywhere else, there is a, uh, real village, um maybe mud brick or bricks and mortar, where or would affordable where lesbians can live together and support one another when they are old and be safe. And I'd like people 30 years from now to ask themselves, What did you do to make this happen? Did you envision that we could have this kind of reality and and what was done to make it happen? And if it never happened, you know It was so sad to hear Marilyn today say she hopes she There she is. She hopes she lived that long. Well, you know, I intend to live that long. And I would like people to be accountable for what is the next step. I want to ask you 30 years from now, Did you drive us back into the closet or did you revel in our old age? You know? Did you Did you help us celebrate old age, or do we go? Do we have to go hide? I don't want to hide anymore. You know, it was so bloody hard coming out in 1978. I don't tend to go hard anymore, you know? And we did all of that stuff, and, uh, I hope that people will still respect us, and Nazi has just been to labels. You know, I. I hope that those labels of lesbian and gay don't just evaporate away. You know, it's a post modern world, but some of the you know we have to honour those people who went before. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Asia Pacific Outgames ; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011) ; Auckland ; Australia ; Canada ; Human Rights Commission ; Jan Wilson ; LGBT ; Lesbian Elders Village ; Pacific ; People ; Ruth Busch ; Stuff ; The Closet ; Wellington ; Youth ; access ; age of consent ; ageism ; alcohol ; belief ; bricks ; camp ; children ; choice ; church ; civil unions ; class ; closet ; collective ; coming out ; community ; conference ; consent ; conversation ; culture ; death ; difference ; dignity ; discrimination ; diversity ; drag ; economics ; elder issues ; elders ; equality ; family ; funeral ; gay ; gender ; government ; health ; health care ; heterosexual ; homophobia ; hope ; housing ; human rights ; individual ; isolation ; labels ; law ; lesbian ; listening ; love ; lover ; mainstreaming ; march ; marriage ; other ; queer ; relationships ; respect ; retirement ; running ; sad ; safety ; sex ; sexual orientation ; sexuality ; straight ; support ; survey ; teaching ; time ; touch ; unions ; video ; visibility ; website ; women ; work ; workshop. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ruth_busch_and_jan_wilson_1.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089483. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.