The title of this recording is "Khartini Slamah (2)". It is described as: Khartini Slamah from Malaysia talks about attending the human rights conference. It was recorded in Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington on the 16th March 2011. Khartini Slamah is being interviewed by Jim Whitman.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 11 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Khartini Slamah from Malaysia talks about attending the human rights conference. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: In a podcast recorded on March 16, 2011, Khartini Slamah discusses their work at the intersection of human rights and advocacy for sex workers within the Asia Pacific Network of Sex Workers and the Asia Pacific Transgender Network. The conversation, conducted in Wellington Town Hall and hosted by Jim Whitman, extends for 11 minutes, focusing on the diverse experiences of sex workers, particularly in the context of legal and societal challenges that affect their rights and their privacy. As the founder of the Asia Pacific Transgender Network, Slamah expounds on the organization's commitment to empowering sex workers – including male, female, and transgender individuals – through advocacy and training. Their goal is to enable sex workers to advocate for themselves, striving for equal rights as citizens rather than special treatment. The work centers on advocating for fundamental rights such as access to healthcare, education, housing, and privacy, highlighting the issues of bullying, stigmatization, and discrimination faced by sex workers. Slamah openly discusses the complex reality of being of Islamic faith and transgender, explaining the layered stigma that comes from both identities. They delve into the additional challenges of advocating for sex workers' rights within Muslim countries and conservative societies, touching on the difficulties in pursuing legalization of sex work, and instead turning towards decriminalization as a more practical approach at present. The candid conversation also covers the adverse impacts of religious interpretation and how it's often used against the transgender community and sex workers, despite religious teachings ostensibly promoting compassion and non-discrimination. Slamah emphasizes the necessity of holistic approaches, including changes to educational systems, and the importance of family and societal support for individuals who do not conform to traditional gender norms. Near the end of the podcast, Slamah mentions the session they attended that focused on the rights of the LGBT community, raising the issue of the double legal systems in Malaysia: civil and Sharia law, and the complexities it holds for activists. Despite these legal and societal obstacles, Slamah speaks to the universality of human rights, advocating for sex workers to be accorded the same dignity, support, and access to services as others – highlighting the basic human right to justice, health care, and housing while also tackling issues regarding the organization and expression of rights. Summarizing the broader context of the struggle, the podcast portrays Slamah's steadfast belief that all individuals, regardless of their profession or identity, deserve to be treated as human beings. They suggest that the pursuit of rights for sex workers isn't seeking special treatment; rather, it's a struggle for recognition, fair treatment, and the basic dignities afforded to others, recognizing sex work as a legitimate profession that provides livelihoods. The podcast ends noting that while advocating for rights is a challenging endeavor, the resilience of sex workers and activists like Slamah remains unwavering despite the multifaceted challenges they face. The full transcription of the recording begins:  My name is Kartini. Uh, I come from, uh, Islam. I'm from Malaysia. I work with the Asia Pacific Network of Sex Workers. I'm also the founder of the Asia Pacific Transgender Network. So in terms of my work or my organisation, we work with sex workers That is male, female and transgender in Asia and the Pacific. So that is my work, you know? So, uh, what we do is that normally is we do more advocacy work advocating for rights of sex workers, uh, under Asia in the past week, we work. Uh, we have 21 focal points. Uh, in Asia Pacific. Uh, that is what it is We we do provide, uh, training, uh, skills, skills for our work. And we are, uh, what they call potential new leaders their skills to speak for themselves rather than someone speak on their behalf. So that is what we normally do. So and a lot of the advocacy is focusing on saying that workers work. Yeah, we also talk talking about rights, uh, to treatment, health there, and, uh, right to education, housing, and many other rights. So I think a lot of sex workers are demanding for equal rights, not special rights. You know, like any other citizen. So that is what we demand for. Does that right? Include privacy? Yeah. Yeah, because, uh, because when you talk about right, this include right of privacy. Because But sometimes when you are sex workers, uh, you know, it's very difficult. You know, a lot of people try to harass you if they know that you are sex workers. Sometimes it's very difficult, you know, sometimes to be yourself. Yeah, it's difficult, because when someone knows that you are sex workers, they tend to bully you. They tend to use it against you. Yeah. So that is why when you talk about your privacy, I mean, even if you are, uh, ex sex workers, if you want to find another job, you find difficult because people tend to use your past life against you. Yeah. So for sex workers, it's not an easy life, but because of the stigma and discrimination, or day to day, we become tough. We sex workers need to be tough. You know, in our life, like myself, being a transgender is a double stigma. Uh, being transgender is already a stigma and being a sex work is another. So we need to be tough because of how people treated us, the public, or even in our families, make us, you know, be need to be tough. That is why sometimes we are fast in terms of why our challenge is very aggressive. It is not because the way how people treated us make we behave in such a way. Yes. And do you think that sex workers have always had this problem irrespective of the effects of, um, you know, occupying countries historical time? Yeah. I mean, if you talk about sex work, Yeah, it is the oldest profession when you talk about sex work, and if you look I mean every country, they are sex workers, you know, a Muslim country. Also, they are sex workers, but a lot of countries doesn't acknowledge the existence of sex workers, you know, And and as I said, because you come from a Muslim country, there's no sex workers. A lot of them are still in the denial stage. Yeah, but in reality, we know the sex workers exist. So where I come from from a Muslim country, That's why when you talk about legalisation, it's just like if you advocate for legalisation, it's like digging your own grave. Yeah, it's not easy. I think it is the same. Also in a conservative Christian country. It's the same, you know. It's no different than a Muslim country. So when you talk about legalisation now, I don't. There are many countries around the world which is not legalising. That is why now we are more talking about decriminalisation in terms of sex work. Yeah, so there's no positive rights that associate what you do with protections. It's just decriminalised. And then you still have to take your look. Yeah, that is why when again today that you know, when I went to one of the sessions talking about the the principle, Yeah, talking about right, Yeah, That's why when I brought up the issue of It's not easy where you come from from a Muslim country advocating for these rights, especially the LGBT thing. Yeah, because, like where I come from, like Malaysia, we have two law, the law and the Sharia Law. So being an activist is not easy. That's why, as I said, you know, might be you can on the civil law, but not on the Sharia because, like where I come from is, uh you know, the Sharia law. Uh, all the law is on the Sharia thing. You know, the kind of thing. It is very difficult. So I don't think that is as I said, for us to advocate further might take times. I don't know how long it will take. It's not easy. The Sharia law is the more scope for people off the streets to take the law into their own hands. You see, that's why I said, I do not question the Koran. I question the people who interpret interpret the had, You know, this is in the individual interpretation of the I don't question the the Bible or the Koran. Yeah, because it's clear. But again, when you talk about religion, how what do you call people use religion against a particular community, for example, like the transgender, they use that to oppress the transgender. But again, when you talk about religion, it's always, you know, compassionate, caring. But that is not being preached by right you are talking about, You know you should not discriminate people, but again, in reality, there are a lot of religious people who discriminate people like us, the transgender community or other communities. I think that should not happen, You know, for me, like, I believe that all transgender women do believe in faith in Islam or in Christian. But because of how the I mean discrimination, they tend to say that, you know, transgender do not believe in religion. Why are they saying that? Assuming that we don't believe in religion. Yeah. Yes. So some deeply religious people workers as well? Yeah, that is what it is. All these moral issues, you know, So you don't get support from the religion as a religious sex worker? Yeah, even if they got their support is more of, uh, you know, trying to change us to save us. But the thing is that by saving us, it doesn't solve the whole problem. You know, you might go hungry if you Yeah, that is why a lot of, uh, uh, organisation who try to save the sex workers. And again, you know, that is why when you talk about, uh, involving sex with a lot of donors trying to give a sewing machine trying to give us, uh what do you call, uh, beats hair dryers or what? We don't need that. Yeah, because why is only given all this thing? What we need is that, you know, uh, uh, the law that criminalises us, You see, we don't need to be safe. We need to be safe from the police who misuse their power and the states or the clerics who just because of who we are, you know, that is, I mean, happening everywhere. And you did point out that that it's about your rights as a person, as a human being, as a human being. But sometimes we are not being treated as a human being. You know, we are being treated like worse than animal, you know? I mean, that is why I mean I. I feel, you know, like, why are we being treated like that So bad? You see? And we are human being, you know, And your case for for sex work is one that you're a human being and two is that you do that for your living And that you would hope that you would get medical care because you needed it. Um, like anybody else would. Yes, or or whatever other things that you need housing, housing, insurance, Um, jobs, employment, You know, any, like any other citizen. If they have the rights to everything, I think that we either sex workers, should have the same rights. I was at a session this morning about elderly lesbians so it would apply to elderly. Perhaps, but they went through the yoy Carter principles and looked at specific principles that they felt applied particularly to them. Oddly enough, I mean, you mentioned housing and health. They also apply to you as well. Are there specific ones? Um, I mean, a right to justice, I would guess, and and access to the courts and all that sort of stuff even opinion, expression, or even organising, you know, organising. Absolutely. Which, of course, is what's often denied workers who organise as well, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, even the transgender or to organise themselves because, like back home, uh, my experience before when we form up an organisation Yeah, they say that we were being banned from organising. They say that we are creating more of our species and in more involved work. But that is not our main objective. The main objective of forming Association organisation was to bring all the transgender women together to understand what is our issues or problems in sharing that kind of things. But the perception of the religious people think that we are creating more. And I think we are trying to recruit more people, become a transgender, which is not true. You can't force someone to become who she does want to be. For example, you can't force someone to become a lesbian, to become gay or to become a transgender. You can't. It is, you know, a natural bond in that person. So for me, you know where I come from again. You see, that's why when you talk about, it's a holistic thing. You need to look at this, uh, education system because it's not taught in school. Yeah, so a lot of, uh, parents cannot cope with their son who is different. That is why a lot of, uh, a lot of times when you see a parent seems to discriminate or even within the family, discriminate the son who is different and again because the belief is always that, you know, it's always like, yeah, when you are a boy, you become a man. So there's no other gender, so it's very difficult sometimes when you you don't have a family support. Yeah, that is why also, Sometimes that's why the transgender women tend to be with, uh, safe to be with their own community. And they're involved in sex work because the job, uh, option is very limited, and people don't trust us with the job. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Asia Pacific Outgames ; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011) ; Bible ; Islam ; Job ; Khartini Slamah ; LGBT ; Malaysia ; Pacific ; People ; Stuff ; Wellington ; access ; advocate ; beats ; belief ; change ; community ; compassion ; conference ; conservative ; courts ; denial ; discrimination ; education ; employment ; expression ; face ; faith ; family ; gay ; gender ; grave ; hair ; health ; hope ; housing ; human rights ; individual ; insurance ; justice ; law ; lesbian ; march ; other ; parents ; perception ; police ; power ; privacy ; religion ; school ; sewing ; sex ; sex work ; stigma ; support ; time ; tough ; training ; transgender ; trust ; women ; work ; yoga. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/apog_khartini_slamah_2.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089464. Khartini Slamah also features audibly in the following recordings: "Khartini Slamah (1)". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.