The title of this recording is "Session 3, Yogyakarta Principles forum". It is described as: Audio from the Yogyakarta Principles forum at the Human Rights Conference of the 2nd AsiaPacific Outgames. It was recorded in Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington on the 16th March 2011. Julie Watson is presenting.  Their name is spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 32 minutes, but this may not reflect the actual length of the proceedings. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: Audio from the Yogyakarta Principles forum. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: This summary recounts the proceedings of the Session 3, Yogyakarta Principles forum held at the Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, on March 16, 2011. The forum, presented by Julie Watson, focused on the advancement of human rights for the LGBTQI community in the Asia-Pacific region and discussed strategies and initiatives to promote equality and legal protection. The session opened with an emphasis on interaction and dialogue to consider the path forward for the promotion of LGBTQI rights in the region. A recap of earlier presentations highlighted the significance of the Yogyakarta Principles, as introduced by John Fisher, a collection of existing human rights standards applied to LGBTQI individuals. Susan Glazebrook reinforced the need for a staged approach in implementing these principles but underscored the urgency for national human rights institutions (N HR IS) to make progress. Throughout the forum, speakers shared insights from various countries within the Pacific and Asia regions. Discussions addressed the limited legal protections for LGBTQI people, with emphasis on the lack of enforcement mechanisms and support from N HR IS. Moreover, participants recognized the diverse terminologies used across countries to describe LGBTQI communities and the importance of understanding and respecting these differences. Key issues identified during the forum included the decriminalization of same-sex conduct, legal documentation for transgender individuals, responses to torture and violence, anti-discrimination provisions, and health concerns related to HIV/AIDS and intersex health. Cultural and religious sensitivities were also discussed, acknowledging the delicate balance between promoting LGBTQI rights and navigating local belief systems. Particularly impassioned contributions came from participants discussing the challenges faced by LGBTQI advocates in Muslim countries and the commendable work being done despite these obstacles. The recognition of regional diversity in terminologies and legislative frameworks added complexity to the discussions and pointed to the need for tailored advocacy strategies. Following the thematic summaries, the participants formed small groups to further dissect the issues and propose actionable steps to be taken within the region. Group discussions emphasized the significance of awareness-raising, educational campaigns, and advocacy for LGBTQI rights, highlighting how UN processes, such as the Universal Periodic Review, could drive progress. The groups also considered how N HR IS and NGO S could work together more effectively, using documents like the Yogyakarta Principles as common reference points. The session concluded with an emphasis on continued dialogue, cooperation among regional partners, and strategic use of international platforms to advance LGBTQI rights. Each group presented their findings, providing a comprehensive overview of the challenges faced and opportunities available in ensuring the rights and dignity of LGBTQI individuals in the Asia-Pacific area. The full transcription of the recording begins:  I'm Shay from the New Zealand Human Rights Commission. We're gonna get started. Um, and with the hope that maybe we might finish a little bit earlier and everyone will be able to move into caucuses if they're joining those or get away. No, it's been a long day. And just before we break into small groups because we want this to be a really interactive session where you get to talk and discuss and dialogue about some of the issues you've heard about today. Some of the expertise and experience and knowledge that you bring. This is a This session's focus is on. Where to? From here we've heard a lot we already know and have experienced a lot what's needed now in our region. And what can we do about it individually, Organizationally, regionally. So a quick recap just to remind us of what we've heard about today. Um, after the opening plenary, we heard from John Fisher, who talked to us about the Yoak Carta principles, and for some of that us, that was a new thing that we were hearing about for the first time, he emphasised it is a collection of the existing human rights for GL BT i communities. It's not new. Susan Glazebrook then talked about the a CJ reference and reminded us that there needs to be an a staged approach. That's what they've promoted but that all N HR IS must get there. And so that's really a call to all the N HR IS that are here today, um, to remember and take that back to our organisations that we all have to progress these issues as quickly as we can. I briefly spoke about the Human Rights Commission's work in New Zealand and about our priorities in relation to equality before the law, data collection and trans to sex issues. Philip and Sandra then spoke to us about, um, how things are in the Pacific and the lack of legal protection and N HR IS to promote the protection of GL BT I rights. Kate spoke to us from Australia about the same sex inquiry and trans rights work that the Human Rights Commission has been undertaking and talked to us about a likely time frame for the, um, realisation of some of these rights and issues. Saying that the focus, the initial focus was on anti discrimination, then she thought that there'd be more changes around trans rights followed by equality before the law as the final thing. And she talked about marriage. I think from memory. Kate At that point, Lake from Malaysia Human Rights Commission talked to us about their focus on religious and cultural sensitivities and how that fits with GL BT I rights. And we've had interesting discussions with his along those lines too. So I think that will be really good if we can have a small group discussion on that as part of this session. We were then were lucky to hear from Naomi, Ava and Joey, who talked to us about regional the their situation in their particular countries and across the region, and provided us with, um, insights and things that we probably don't hear about every day about what's happening in the lives of GL BT I people in those countries and we were reminded that the terminology GL BT I trans other words are not commonly shared across our countries, and we need to keep that in mind and make sure that people know what we're talking about. And people, um recognise the use of different terms and They also talked about the legislative framework in their various countries and so have added some more understanding to the situation And what people are facing when they are, Um, yeah, supporting GL BT I communities and advocating for the rights of GL BT I communities. There was a particularly impassioned I can't remember. Was it there? I know the woman who talked about, um the do you remember? Yeah, Muslim countries. Katina. Sorry. Sorry. Yes, yes. From Malaysia Talking about how difficult it is in Muslim countries to be advocates in this area. And there was a reminder from that, despite that there are many groups who are doing fantastic work in Muslim countries in this area. So now comes the fun part where we get to talk together and to do that What we thought is really what's come out through today and through the a CJ reference are some key issues that people seem particularly interested in, um, progressing and in talking about. And we've broken those down and I'll just read those out. And if there's any issues that you think don't fit that you want to talk about that you are interested in talking about that don't fit into these, then please let me know we'll add another group. It'll be small groups discussing discussing. Then we'll come together and report back as a a larger group at the end. So the first one is about decriminalising. Same sex conduct. The second legal documentation for trans people, the third responding to issues of torture. So that's about violence, harassment, bullying, 5th, 4th anti discrimination provisions. Fifth health concerns, including an effective response to the HIV AIDS epidemic and that will include intersex health issues. And the sixth is about culture and religion in relation to incompatibility or compatibility with GL BT I rights. Is there anything you think that you want to talk about? That's not already included in that list? No. Great. That makes our job easier. So what's going to happen is I've talked to a few people about being sort of facilitators of these small groups. If everybody wants to join one group, that's fine. We'll do it that way. Otherwise, you know, feel free to join any of those six groups. Depending on your interest, the groups and your groups, you'll be looking at what the next most important steps are in your region for that particular issue. What support you can get from and give others to in your region. How can UN processes be used to help progress these issues? So that's like U PR treaty body reports the UN joint statement, et cetera. And how else do you think N HR IS and NGO S can complement each other's work in this in relation to this issue? I think that's John. That's just joined us. It's quite dark. Hi, John. Good to have you here, OK? Yeah, sure. The first one is decriminalising. Oh, sorry. What are the most important steps in your region? The second one. What support can I get from or give to others in the region, for example, research or training? How can UN processes be used to help progress these issues? How else can N HR IS and NGO S complement each other's work? So I've talked to there was a quite a lot of interest in relation to culture and religion, and I've talked with and his and Lake, and they're interested in facilitating that group. So how about for starters, if that group meets over here in this fire fire table if you can gather around there, just take how many chairs you need. So if you're interested in that issue, please can you move down there now so we can get things rolling and the facilitators will start with a piece of paper and pens, decriminalising, same sex conduct. If you come and sit at this table responding to issues of torture, violence, harassment, bullying are people interested in that? The particular Some of these. Some of these groups are going to have to just collect in the chairs because we haven't got enough tables and chairs to sit around together. So decriminalising, same sex conduct. Katrine is going to help out that group legal documentation for trans people. Jack has kindly said he'll look after that group if people are interested in talking about health. I wondered John, if you could be a resource for that group, is there anyone I thought? Kate, You might want to do anti discrimination provisions and Sam, So if you've got a group that collates around that, I hate breaking up the discussion. But I know that people do have to get somewhere at five. Some people, so can you bring your groups together, thank you. And whoever is brave enough to come up here and share what your groups have come up with. Yay! Jack's first. So So we did, um, legal documentation for it's called Trans People. But as as all of you will be aware from the session that, um, the word trans isn't universal. So we were really talking about legal documentation for from Tonga from, um, island. What's the word in your country for trans people? Um Sue In Korea, it is transgender in Korea. And then we've got a lot of teams here in aotearoa and some of the one of the really important issues, um was the difference between legal recognition and social recognition and how they interplay with each other. So in Polynesia, because there is such a large amount of social recognition that someone can be who they are, then the ability to change legal documentation isn't the number one priority. People don't. It becomes an issue when they travel and have to show a passport to go to other countries. But internally, it's not a big issue. You, you know, you are recognised for who you are. The way you see yourself, the way you dress and it doesn't matter what it says on your documentation, whereas we turned to Korea and, um, talking there and no matter how much you live and dress as who you are the thing you know he lives as a guy, but his all his documentation it has a number on it, and the first digit is is is a one If you are born male and it's a two, if you're born female and that same number, it's a quite a long number, but it starts with a two. It's It's you you pulled out about three different I DS It's used on all of those I DS so he stands there as a man. Someone else stands there as a Trans woman as a woman, but he will get called Miss, and that Trans Woman will be called Mister because depending on whether that number is a one or a two, so it's a major issue. It's a major issue, Um, in Korea, they've been doing some work around, um, trying to improve what the criteria are to be able to change your legal sex because being able to change your legal sex is what you need to be able to do to change that number. They haven't got a law, but in September 2006, they got a guideline. The guideline is problematic, hugely problematic. It requires you to have no Children. It requires you to have had full sex reassignment surgery, which is, you know, it's very unlikely that Trans men will ever have had that. And many, many Trans women haven't had it and requiring even just to have hormones, let alone full Um SRS is actually requiring forced sterility on people. And as human rights defenders, we have fought against the rights against other groups having forced sterility, the forced stability of people with disabilities. And that needs to be, you know, an issue for our communities as well. There also has to be no history of marriage. It's not just that you can't be married that you have to end that marriage so that you're not in the same sex marriage. You actually have to have no history of marriage as well. And the the first statistics between September 2006 and um, April 2007, they showed that there have been 60 60 Trans women who've been able to change their sex and only four FT MS. So it's 15 times as many trans women. So we could, you know, in the human rights language, indirect discrimination. We'd probably call that you know, that something would that that appears neutral, has does, has actually has a much more discriminatory effect on trans trans men. And they are wonderful. They have a small group there, and it's and it's not safe for them to be activists. But they're still doing it, and they've campaigned. They talked to their national human rights, um institution, which has said that the court's guidelines need to change and it needs to be a change to the law. But that was 2007, I think. And still it's 2011 now, and nothing has has has changed. So I think it was a a mixture of it. In some places, this is a huge issue and others it's less of an issue, but in all but it's that balanced, you know. But that is only because there were there was all that other cultural support and then all that other contextual support that enables to people to be who they are, despite what they are they have on their birth certificate and therefore, what is on the other documentation? Was there anything else that I missed from that from our We had other really good discussions about, you know, whether you can get hormones in different countries and and and all and all of that stuff. And, um but but this is the bit that was on track, but the rest was really useful to OK, that's fantastic. Thank you, Jack and your group. So how about we head to decriminalising? Same sex conduct Our group consists of four of us and two from India are taking half of the strength of the Group one from the Human Rights Commission, Malaysia and, of course, from the Privacy Commission, New Zealand. We have deliberated upon the developments which have been taking place in our countries, and they have tried to put down her. So, of course, the most talk about point with regard to Indian context is the Section 3 77 and it's a major, major major development with regard to the rights of the people who are having the sexual orientation of their choice. The Indian High Court in 2008 has held this particular section of Indian penal code ultra virus to the Constitution of the country, to the extent that if an adult person is having a sexual orientation of a choice to that extent, it cannot be considered to be a criminal act. The very important aspect of the judgement is that the high court has drawn its conclusion on the basis of the diversity inclusiveness and here, uh, if you read the judgement carefully, it says that inclusiveness is not in terms of the the different groups minorities, major groups, linguistic groups but also in terms of the the very small minority which is having its own particular type of sex orientation. So unless you include those people also in your mainstream, you can't call yourself to be an inclusive society and therefore you will have to regard their rights in equality as it is there to other group of the people. So it's a very major major development. The case has gone to the apex court of the country, but basically from the religious groups. But by and large, society has accepted it and the movement has come out openly and every year there are pride parades in major cities of the country which are supported by the parents and relatives of the people who have expressed their sexual orientation. We have discussed. Of course, New Zealand does not have any discriminatory law, but the question is where to go from now from here and what to do in future. So with regard to India, the NHS can play the role in terms of awareness and advocacy. Since this judgement is there now, there is need to review these laws which are discriminatory to this minority. And, uh, advocacy is one of the functions of the N HR H, so the commission can come forward lead with the government here as far back as in 2000, Indian Commission has held one of the recommendations of the National Conference held on HIV and AIDS has clearly advocated to the government that this particular section needs to be reviewed and then only we can tackle the issues arising out of the AIDS and HIV among the people who are considered to be MS. So this campaign can be carried forward. Awareness can be created in favour of the judgement and the law can accordingly be modified in Malaysia. Of course the religious and cultural context is very overpowering. So here the support to the personal choices, advocating idea of the equality before law and support to the right to privacy and dignity can be carried forward by the commission, which will also include the persons having different sexual orientations, what support needed and what can I do and give. Of course, affirmative cases cases studies can be shared among the various activist groups as well as of different countries. Domestic institutions can carry forward advocacy training to the institutions. We can undertake the work of counselling so many times the people who are expressing their sexual orientation and can face a very adverse atmosphere environment in the society and to enable them to face those type of reactions. Right type of counselling is a need, so to have proper manpower in counselling such type of minority people, one of the roles can be played by NHS in this regard. It is also suggested that the institutional frameworks in terms of manpower and the finance, which is available regionally and internationally, should also be availed by the so This is in nutshell the points we have noted down, if anything else to be added by any of the member. Thank you. Bye. Thank you, Mr Mina and your group. I think we'll head to health, which is a little lonesome group. OK, good afternoon, everyone. Uh, my group Well, there were only two of us. So the pair of us, uh, we're able to discuss some issues that are pertinent to the health concerns, including an effective response to the HIV AIDS epidemic amongst the K LGBTI Q community. OK, And one of the key. One of the key important steps that we felt the region need to undertake is that we need to understand more the health issues that are pertinent to this particular group can. We are aware that there has been many studies and researches done on MS MS or gay people because of the HIV epidemic. But very little is known about the health issues that are pertinent to the ill. To the lesbians, bisexuals and trans community, including intersex. Ok, for some there are for some countries they have done some studies on this. So there is a need in this region for us to consolidate this information so that when we have conferences like this, we are fully aware of the health issues that are pertinent to our group. OK? And finally in our, uh when we had just started our discussions, we had started with intersex and then we were asking each other. OK, what are their health issues? OK, so it's this kind of, uh uh conversation that we need to address and try and plug the gaps in, uh, information so that we are aware of, uh, the health issues that are pertinent to our community. So that's the first task we thought the region need to undertake is to consolidate and document all the health issues that are pertinent to the LGBTQ community and also with regards to HIV programming. We know that most of the countries, and also UNAIDS, is promoting all countries adopting a human rights based approach to HIV programming and more particularly for the population. Because, as we know, an is probably the highest risk practise when it comes to HIV transmission. So we need to encourage countries in this region to adopt a human rights based approach and to address the human rights that are pertinent to particularly Ms Ms, because there have been studies that have confirmed that if the rights of gay people or men who have sex with men are not addressed, then we will continue to have an increased epidemic amongst this population. And we are also aware that there are other issues like mental health issues or depression that may lead to suicide amongst this group. This also needs to be more research needs to be done in this area, and also it needs to be documented. And, uh, this will enable us to encourage government to develop policies and programmes that are LGBTI Q friendly. Only if we have supporting information and data, we will be able to convince our government to address the health concerns that are pertinent to this particular group and on um OK, we didn't discuss much because there were only two of us. So you should understand. Uh, now, with regards to, uh, working with, uh, national human rights institutes and NGO complementing each other's, uh, work. OK, we had discussed that. Perhaps it would be good if this two, if the national N HR IS and NGOs probably it may be advisable that they use the Yogyakarta principles as an agreed framework for them to work within so that there is complementarity in the work and the programmes that they do, rather than duplicating the work in the countries. Thank you. That's an impressive effort given the two of you. Um, now we're gonna quickly head round to culture and religion, and we'll finish with anti discrimination. If this microphone is working, I I'll work it from here. Um, our our area was to undertake studies to BGT rights that are not that are not incompatible with culture and religion. And the, um the next most important steps are culture and religion sensitive issues. So we see the best way best approach is from a human rights based approach. Uh, we see education awareness, advocacy, campaign LGBT rights, uh, as a human being and the areas of health, education, work and employment nondiscrimination, law enforcement officers and the various arms of government, the Legislature, the executive and the judiciary. And, of course, um, titles as well to make sure that the same entitlements applied to both same sex couple as to, um, heterosexual couples in in terms of support, Um What support can we get from others in the region? We suggest that we use the best experiences and lessons from other regions, others in the region to, uh, advocate and lobby for LGBT issues. The um United Nations processes the universal periodic review the special rapporteur UN officers to submit reports on thematic issues such as HIV aids concerning L GB and then support from, um, the National Human Rights institutions to promote and protect on the, um How we can, um, complement each other's works from NGO, S and human rights institutions. Um, partnership and awareness education, training and communication dialogue with religious leaders, traditional and cultural leaders, LGBT groups. We almost left that one out. We we decided to put in, and it was so obvious. And government and local, provincial and national governments, it's a way forward we see to identify a champion nationally or regionally to be the face for LGBT rather than each, um member in a region, uh, do their own thing. We see it best to work certainly more economically and effectively to have a an overall champion for your region. Uh, and finally, the The message is equally important as the message itself home it straight anti discrimination. Hi. Um, we had, uh, people from Sydney and, um, Sandra from the triple RT in the Pacific. So there were different issues for different countries. Um, but in the Pacific, there aren't any anti discrimination provisions, except, I think in Tokelau it's New Zealand's laws. And there was one other wasn't there. Oh, sorry. Yeah, It's, um, and Fiji did have it in their constitution. They had sexual orientation, but their constitution has been abrogated. So basically, there's nothing there. Um it was thought that law reform case law and constitutional reform, um, is required in the Pacific, for example, to Tonga's Constitution is from the 18 hundreds, so late 18 hundreds. So there definitely needs to be some reform there. Um, in Australia, there is, um, statutory reform is required. There has been a commitment to include sexual orientation and gender identity, um, in federal anti discrimination law. So there's been the commitment, so that needs to be followed through. Um, the Australian Human Rights Commission has done a report to the government on that, um, also the Australian Human Rights Commission. Um yes, are working on making the government realise their commitment to changing the law. Um, there are difficulties in that. It's a federal system. So states have, um, anti discrimination laws. But there's differences in terminology and different, um, provisions. So there's quite a job there for the government. Um, in the Pacific it was discussed how the U PR process is actually very helpful when other countries comment on the lacking, Um, the lack of anti discrimination provisions because those countries are asked questions and are accountable and have to come up with answers and answers such as, you know, cultural considerations just won't cut it. They have to provide responses to those questions. And, um, Fiji was receiving financial aid from New Zealand, and Australia still receives support from Australia. Um, but the funding the funding has been cut. Um, so collaboration, uh, the way the way forward for N HR IS and NGO S. We discussed collaboration and the need for N HR IS to keep an independent voice. And the the best way to work is for N HR IS to bring together the NGO voices and perhaps report to government on those voices and the NN HR IS act as intermediaries between NGO S and government. Thank you. Thank you, Sam and your group. And I realised before I said Homewood straight, which is just totally inappropriate. So we're we're actually gonna be on the Homewood bent very soon. I just have to make an announcement that again the plenary is starting at 8. 30 tomorrow morning at 8:30 a. m. So please be here. They might lock the doors. But I just want to say thank you to everybody for your contributions. We do want your pieces of paper because we are going to put all this together as a a record of this forum today. And I, I wish you all a good trip to wherever you're going now for your evening activities and look forward to seeing most of you tomorrow. Thank you. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Antarctica ; Asia Pacific Outgames ; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011) ; Australia ; Fiji ; France ; HIV transmission ; High Court ; Human Rights Commission ; India ; Job ; John Fisher ; Julie Watson ; Korea ; LGBT ; Malaysia ; Pacific ; People ; Polynesia ; Rarotonga ; Stuff ; Tokelau ; United Nations ; Wellington ; Wellington Town Hall ; Yogyakarta Principles (2006) ; activities ; advocate ; anal sex ; anti discrimination ; birth certificate ; broken ; bullying ; change ; children ; choice ; collaboration ; communication ; community ; conference ; conversation ; courts ; culture ; data ; depression ; difference ; dignity ; discrimination ; diversity ; education ; employment ; environment ; epidemic ; equality ; face ; forum ; fun ; funding ; future ; gay ; gender ; gender identity ; government ; harassment ; hate ; health ; health education ; heterosexual ; history ; hope ; human rights ; identity ; intersex ; knowledge ; language ; law ; love ; mainstream ; march ; marriage ; mental health ; minority ; msm ; other ; parents ; partnership ; passport ; priorities ; privacy ; race ; recognition ; religion ; research ; resource ; review ; sex ; sexual orientation ; social ; statistics ; straight ; strength ; suicide ; support ; surgery ; tease ; time ; torture ; training ; trans ; trans woman ; transgender ; travel ; treaty ; understanding ; violence ; voice ; work ; zoo. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ilott_theatre_session_3.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089428. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.