Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Committee of whole House continued (16 April 1986)

Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want, at the outset, to assure you that I am not referring to the debate just concluded. I shall be as concise as I can. However, the matter is complex. I raise the point of order under the following Speakers' rulings: 16/2, 16/5, 17/1, 138/4, and 139/1, with particular reference to the final portion. The point I raise is whether appropriation is involved. At the time the House last examined the Bill the evidence available was circumscribed or limited. The member for Hauraki received today a letter, which was written yesterday, from the Human Rights Commission, and I read from page 2: “If Part II of the Bill”—that is, the Homosexual Law Reform Bill—“is passed by Parliament pursuant to a democratic majority, and people actively challenge the new law, then there could indeed be an increased work load with increased cost factors." That letter is signed by Mr K. G. MacCormick, the alternative chairman of the commission. He goes on to say on the same page: "The commission asked Dr W. C. Hodge of the Auckland University Law School"—

Mr SPEAKER: Order! I understand what the member is raising, but it is not a matter that can be dealt with immediately. As I said to the House when I was recalled to discuss the matter, if new, serious evidence-but not opinion—was raised, it would be considered with other matters. By the very nature of those considerations it is customary for legislation on which the Speaker is to make a judgment to be reviewed before its introduction into the House or before it proceeds along one of its stages. It is inappropriate that a decision should be made merely by my listening to certain evidence being presented. I suggest to the member that the evidence he has should be presented to the Clerk. I will consider that matter and decide whether it satisfies what must necessarily be fairly stringent requirements before I upset a previous ruling. If the evidence does satisfy that ruling, I shall send a message to the Chairman of Committees advising that the Committee should seek a ruling of the Chair.

Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I am obliged to you, Mr Speaker. I shall do as you suggest.

GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I raise a further point of order, Mr Speaker. I thank you for your ruling, but I seek additional clarification. I understand you when you say that what is opinion would not necessarily constitute evidence. When you were recalled during a former debate on the Bill you said that anything that was relevant to appropriation, from the time of the introduction of the Bill to this time, would be considered. That makes it difficult to submit to you matters that would not necessarily come outside the range of opinion. Whilst that would not be all of the evidence we would like to bring to you, we believe it would be relevant for you to study it. Could you clarify what you mean by that which is only opinion?

Mr SPEAKER: When considering the matters involved the Speaker has always acted on the advice tendered to him, and, if he has been unsatisfied with the competence of the advice, he has gone further afield. For that reason, it is not appropriate that I should pass judgment now, before I have seen evidence and decided whether it is of such a nature as to compel me to make a certain decision. That would almost certainly rule out the possibility of the Speaker taking appropriate advice. For that reason, I assure members that any evidence they have that is not purely opinion I shall be happy to receive and to review, and to consult my advisers on.

In Committee Debate resumed from 9 April 1986.

Part II. Amendments of Human Rights Commission Act 1977 (continued).

WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga) sought the leave of the Committee to move proposed new clause 84 previously ruled out of order.

Rt. Hon. BOB TIZARD (Minister of Energy) objected.

PHILIP WOOLLASTON (Nelson) moved, That the question be now put.

The CHAIRMAN declined to accept the motion.

JIM SUTTON (Waitaki) moved, That the question be now put.

The Committee divided on the question, That the question be now put. Ayes 42 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gerard; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Lange; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Tapsell; Tizard; Townshend; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Sutton, J. R.; Woollaston. Noes 34 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger, Burdon; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Graham; Gray; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McTigue; Mallard; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Storey; Sutton, W. D.; Talbot; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Upton; Wallbank; Wellington. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Majority for: 8 Motion agreed to.

Dr BILL SUTTON (Hawke's Bay) sought leave to withdraw the amendment to clause 9 set out in Supplementary Order Paper 72.

JOHN BANKS (Whangarei) objected.

WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga) proposed to move the amendment.

The CHAIRMAN: The position is covered in Standing Order 190(2), which applies when a motion "That the question be now put" has been carried: "Any proposed amendment that has been properly notified on a Supplementary Order Paper or has been handed in to the Table prior to the time when the closure motion is accepted and which relates to the matter under consideration shall be put forthwith". The member is not in a position to withdraw his amendment. The amendment has to be put. Amendment negatived.

Dr BILL SUTTON (Hawke's Bay) moved to insert the following new clauses: 9A. Employment-(1) Section 15 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (4), the following subsection: "(4A) Nothing in this section shall apply to preferential treatment based on sexual orientation where the position is one of domestic employment in a private household." (2) Section 15 (6) of the principal Act is hereby amended— (a) By inserting after the words "based on sex", the words "or sexual orientation": (b) By inserting, after the words “to one sex”, the words “or to persons of a particular sexual orientation". 9B. Qualifying bodies-Section 21 (2) of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after the words "to one sex", the words "or to persons of a particular sexual orientation".

GRAEME LEE (Hauraki) moved to delete from proposed new clause 9A the word "sexual", and to substitute the word "heterosexual”; and to delete from proposed new clause 9B the words "particular sexual", and to substitute the word "heterosexual".

The Committee divided on the question, That the amendments moved by the member for Hauraki be agreed to. Ayes 39 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander, Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 40 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Lange; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority against: 1 Amendments negatived.

The Committee divided on the question, That new clauses 9A and 9B be agreed to. Ayes 52 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Butcher; Colman; Cooper; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dunne; East; Elder; Fraser; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Moyle; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Storey; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 26 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Caygill; Clark; Dillon; Douglas; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Neilson; Northey; Richardson; Scott; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 26 New clauses agreed to. 10.14 p.m.

Hon. WHETU TIRIKATENE-SULLIVAN (Southern Maori) moved to insert the following new clauses: 9AA. Employment-Section 15 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (6), the following subsection: “(6A) Nothing in this section shall apply to preferential treatment based on sexual orientation where the position is one of authority over persons all or some of whom are under the age of 16 years." 9BB. Land, housing, and other accommodation-Section 25 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (4), the following subsection: "(4A) Nothing in this section relating to discrimination by reason of the sexual orientation of any person shall apply to the letting of any residential accommodation."

GRAEME LEE (Hauraki) moved to delete from proposed new clause 9AA the word "sexual" and to substitute the word “heterosexual”; and to delete from proposed new clause 9BB the words "apply to" and to substitute the words "prevent preferential treatment on the ground of a person's heterosexual orientation in relation to".

The Committee divided on the question, That the amendments moved by the member for Hauraki be agreed to. Ayes 34 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Cooper; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McLay; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 45 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; McKinnon; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Storey; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Townshend; Upton; Wetere; Wilde; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority against: 11 Amendment negatived.

The Committee divided on the question, That new clauses 9AA and 9BB be agreed to. Ayes 44 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair, Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wall; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 35 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 9 New clauses agreed to.

GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier) moved to insert the following new clause: 10. Armed Forces, Police, traffic officers, and officers of penal institutions-Section 16 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (3), the following subsection: "(3A) Nothing in subsection (1) or subsection (2) of section 15 of this Act shall apply in respect of anything done or omitted to be done in respect of the recruitment, treatment, or dismissal of any person as a member of the Armed Forces, or as a member of the Police, or as a traffic officer, or as an officer of a penal institution, on the ground of that person's sexual orientation.”

The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 10 be agreed to. Ayes 42 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 37 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 5 New clause agreed to.

GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier) moved to insert the following new clause: 11. Educational establishments-Section 26 of the principal Act is hereby amended by adding the following subsection: "(4) Nothing in this section shall prevent the promulgation or enforcement of any rule of conduct in any primary or secondary educational institution prohibiting, or designed to prevent the occurrence of, sexual behaviour generally, or any particular type of sexual behaviour, within the educational institution."

The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 11 be agreed to. Ayes 45 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Northey; Peters; Storey; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wall; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 35 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder, Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 10 New clause agreed to.

Hon. FRANK O'FLYNN (Minister of Defence) moved to insert the following new clause: 11A. Vocational training bodies-Section 22 of the principal Act is hereby amended by adding the following subsection: "(4) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section shall apply in respect of anything done or omitted to be done in relation to the training of any person who is or is seeking to become a member of the Armed forces by reason of the sexual orientation of that person."

The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 11A be agreed to. Ayes 44 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Elder; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J., Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 34 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard, Woollaston. Majority for: 10 New clause agreed to.

Hon. FRANK O'FLYNN (Minister of Defence) moved to insert the following new clause: 12. Educational institutions-Section 26 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (2), the following subsection: "(2A) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section shall apply in respect of anything done or omitted to be done by any educational establishment conducted by the Armed Forces in respect of any person who is or is seeking to become a member of the Armed Forces by reason of that person's sexual orientation.

The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 12 be agreed to. Ayes 44 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Elder; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 35 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 9 New clause agreed to.

The Committee divided on the question, That Part II as amended be agreed to. Ayes 31 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Wetere; Wilde. Teller: Mallard; Woollaston. Noes 49 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Butcher; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Gerbic; Graham; Gray; Gregory; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Richardson; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Upton; Wall; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Majority against: 18 Part II as amended negatived.

Progress reported.

The House adjourned at 11.1 p.m.