Pastor Brian Tamaki has confirmed that Destiny is running an ex-gay programme to convert gays into heterosexuals. Tamaki is unmoved by the wealth of social scientific evidence that proves such therapy doesn't work, and can even be detrimental to those who take part. "They're responsible for their own actions, not me," says Tamaki of gays. "People say things about me that aren't nice but I'm not going to jump off the bridge or run in front of a car." He was reluctant to give details about how many people had been through the programme or how it worked, but said it would involve counseling, prayer, exorcism, and exposure to men who are "strong in their manhood". "We have traced it right back again to the home. To the upbringing of boys and girls as well. Let's not forget there is a lesbian problem there as well," Tamaki says.