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Will your LinkedIn online resume, uh, begins. My dream is to write the histories of queer New Zealanders. In particular, I would love to P the histories of transgender New Zealanders. And I'm wondering, where does that dream of writing queer history come from? Um, I guess it's just like a really personal kind of goal for me in that. Like when I. I kind of started to realise I was trans about 2015 or end of 2014, [00:00:30] 2015. And before that I thought I was a lesbian. And when I thought I was a lesbian, I'd kind of gone online and I'd done some reading around it, and I started reading about homosexual law reform and, um, like, different like in the circle and all those kind of lesbian groups and clubs and stuff. And so, like that history seemed to be there. But then when I realised I was Trans and I kind of started looking for trans histories and stuff, there was just nothing. Nothing out there there was kind of a TIA. There's [00:01:00] a TIA page on gender diversity. Um, and through that, I found out about, um, Carmen and Georgina Baer and watched their documentaries on NZ on screen. Um, but other than that, there was no, like, writings about it or anything. And then finally, when I got the opportunity to study it in class at the end of last year, um, there was just there was just nothing on it. Nothing at all. Um, anywhere. No articles. There was, uh, Louise PiS Masters [00:01:30] thesis, Um, on cross gender identities, Pre like from, uh, 19 06 to 1950 I think. And that was, like, the only thing that was written about, like, trans people as trans people, not as cross dresses or homosexual cross dresses or anything. And it just really frustrated me. And I just really wanted to know. Um, yeah, because there's obviously so much history that's there. Um, that and yeah, it just just frustrating, I guess. Yeah. Why? Why do [00:02:00] you think those histories haven't been written or told? I think that, um, part of it is that the like trans rights movements and things have kind of always been shunted aside, I think, by the more general gay and lesbian movement. Um, and I think that alongside that the academic study has also been like put in the shadows as well. Um, and I think that [00:02:30] it's like I think so much of trans studies focuses on trans identities instead of trans stories. And that, like there's this whole like preoccupation with gender diversity, gender, perversion, gender, you know, um, all all the big questions about gender and stuff, which I think are interesting, but it's not all there is to it. You know what the Trans people do in their daily lives? What, uh, Trans poli, What's trans politics? What's Trans communities? And there's been none [00:03:00] of that kind of, Yeah, II, I guess, as well in New Zealand. Specifically, um, it's quite a small a small, small country, smaller community, and it's only kind of just starting to become a thing in like the United States. Even so, with Susan ST Striker and Joanne Mayo, it's writing histories over there, and the transgender studies quarterly, I think, was 2014 that that started. And trans identity is generally, I guess, with people like, um, Caitlyn, Jenner and, uh, Levan [00:03:30] Cox. That's only kind of, I think, I. I don't know if this is just because it's only in the last four years that I've realised, really, that I've been Trans. But it seems to me like in general, only in the last four or five years, that's really come to the forefront of of the conversation, like transgender people in general and like bathroom bills and all that kind of thing. So I think, like there's just not been as much of an interest that's been focused on marriage, equality and those kind of struggles. But now that we're focusing on trans struggles, a bit more trans histories [00:04:00] and stories are starting to come out a bit more so with your own journey. How were you coming to the the realisation of of kind of a trans identity? Was this through online, or was it through kind of, um, real world interactions with with people? Um, I think it was like it was a mix of both because I went to in an all girls high school and that kind of felt like quite a bit of a a bubble in a lot of ways, because I knew that there was something that I just didn't There was [00:04:30] something that I was uncomfortable with, and I thought that it was my sexuality and that was definitely part of it. Um, and that was kind of easier to identify because it was easier to articulate. And there's more stuff out there, and all the girls are talking about all the boys they've got crushes on. And I just didn't Didn't, you know, didn't get that? But you don't talk about gender in that same way, especially in that all girls environment, because I guess there was that consensus. They all felt like girls, most of them. So there wasn't any need to talk about it. But then as soon as I went [00:05:00] to the hall in first year and I like it sounds weird, But until then, I hadn't actually really interacted with boys my age since I was about 10, and getting to kind of, um, invest like explore my gender a bit more and moving out of home was a big thing. And I finally got to I started trying on different clothes that suited me a bit more, and like I said as well, like, I feel like it was kind of I think 2014 was when there was that time cover with Laverne Cox, The transgender tipping point and stuff and all that stuff [00:05:30] started coming out and everyone in the hall was watching the Caitlyn Jenner do and stuff or whatever the interview that she did. And so it all kind of like I was starting to notice it all a lot more and and online definitely helped. I've been on tumblr tumblr dot com and that had, like, just people talking about gender and Trans and and YouTubers I listened to a lot of Alex Birdie and, um, Ty Turner. There were two one's British ones American YouTubers and talking about their stuff. And I was like, Oh, that makes [00:06:00] sense. I'm starting to get it. And so all those things kind of all happened all at once, uh, at the start of 2015, and I just had this major Oh, I'm not a girl. Whoops, that was That was wrong that whole time. Yeah, so So you have the realisation. I mean, how does that kind of play out internally for you? So, like, I guess I kind of I guess for me it was just because I, I think Alex Bertie, the youtuber was the first YouTube video. As I started watching, [00:06:30] I stumbled across him and I was thinking about him and his journey a lot. And I started thinking about my own gender a lot, and just it became more and more every day. I couldn't stop thinking about it until it was all I thought about all day, every day. And I had that kind of same process that happened to me when I thought that I was a lesbian. I was like, became something that just was consuming my thoughts. It was all I could think about. Am I really trans? Am I really queer? How are people going to react? And I kind [00:07:00] of because I'd kind of already done it once before with the sexuality thing. I kind of realised. Well, I'm thinking about it so much. It must mean that it's a thing, you know, like if you're thinking if you're so preoccupied with this question, my transit probably means you are a trans, Um, and so I kind of started. Then I started, uh, telling a couple of friends at the hall, and I was like, I don't know quite who I am yet, but I know I'm not a girl. And they were like, That's cool. And that just kind of they were really good at giving me the space to, um, keep thinking about [00:07:30] it and and to let them know when I was like, Oh, I'm I'm not a girl. I don't know what I am yet, though. And that was really nice to know that I There were people who kind of could keep up with my internal thought process, If that makes sense, like instead of having to figure it all out and have one I've figured it out. This is who I am. I could kind of Yeah, explore it a bit more that way. Yeah, And when you're talking about Hall. So this is University Hall? Yeah. Yeah, I went to warehouse in 2015. That was [00:08:00] really fun. That was good. Yeah, and they were. So they were so supportive. And I kind of I think it was about April when I first told someone like, Oh, I'm not a girl. And then it was about I think it was about August when I was like, Yeah, no, I think I'm a trans masculine person. I want to be called. Well, um, and the day I kind of came out to everyone or my group of friends, and I put it on the little we had a little Facebook page for our floor in the hall, and I put a I just you know, I wanna use he him pronouns Now, I put a little [00:08:30] link to the YouTube, uh, a video. Um, I'm coming out the Diana Ross and had all that, and I got great response. Everyone was super supportive. And then the next day, we had our warehouse ball, and I got crowned king of the ball by the IRA S, and that was such like, a gleam. They were Everyone was just like that was, like, the epitome of support. Like, you can't get much better than that. Um, so everyone was super super cool about that, and that was still I hadn't realised. I didn't, um, figured out what I wanted my name to be. So I told them all. I'm a guy. I'm using [00:09:00] him. Him pronouns, But I'm still using my old name. So they were, like, really good at handling that which, like, is a bit confusing. I know like when you're trying to form a sentence and using pronouns right with my old name, which was very feminine. Um, so yeah, so that was just a wonderful, wonderful time. And yeah, and at the same time, you were obviously also having a hunger for trying to find, um, Trans people in the past. Yeah, I think I think, actually, Yeah. And to answer your earlier question Well, I think part of that is [00:09:30] from just like not having any trans friends and wanting some kind of community to fit myself in. And I've always been someone who's been really interested in history and in stories and stuff, and I think, like, I'm quite a like a romanticising things a lot, I guess so. Wanting to kind of fit myself into that broader historical narrative and knowing, like Like where I like where, like my people have come from and the battles that Trans people have thought fought and what [00:10:00] ways those need to be continued and that kind of thing. And and just like because Yeah, and because I didn't have, uh, any trans friends, Really. Or maybe I had one from from high school, but they were still in Auckland, and I started to meet a couple of Trans people at uni. But, um, no one that I really properly clicked with until the year after. So I just felt quite even, though, even though everyone was so supportive, all those people at the hall and stuff and there was no one that I quite clicked with who I quite, you know, understood how [00:10:30] I felt about gender in the same way until, like a good year after that. So I think it was It was that as well, just wanting to and and some kind of sense of validation. I think of like knowing that, you know, Trans people have always been here and we've always been, um, it it's not It's not some new snowflake thing. And and and you know, when my parents, uh, they weren't so good at the start and knowing that other people have been there and dealt with that and dealt with a lot worse and that they've, you know, the the movement keeps [00:11:00] pushing forward and so I can keep pushing forward as well, that kind of yeah, one of the, um, things I've found quite tricky to cope with in terms of say, like, um, gay history Is that when I look back, um, at at, uh, some gay lives in the past Often, um it was, like, really hard. You know, they they were facing a lot of discrimination and stuff. And then, um, for me trying not to take on board that either that hate or [00:11:30] that hurt. Um, when you're looking back at the past in terms of trans history, I mean, do you have a similar thing? Definitely. I guess we'll talk about it a little bit later, too. But when I was doing my interview for my honours thesis, um, talking to my interviewee, who came out in 1976 as Trans and hearing all her stories, and I didn't like, I kind of very consciously tried to focus it on, like trans communities and [00:12:00] relationships and all that kind of more external, like within the Trans Group as well. I didn't want to focus on, uh, what public thought, all that kind of thing. I wanted to, you know, not focus, I guess. I guess I wanted to kind of which was a bit silly in hindsight, but I didn't want to focus on all the distressing kind of things. But the topic of suicide came up a lot in that you without me having prompted at all, um, and just mental health in general and all that kind of thing. And I kind of realised like, Well, that's so [00:12:30] integral to the story and the fact that it just kept coming up even though it wasn't even asking about it And just that whole history of, um, like mental health crisis for trans people and how that's such a old thing like that's not a new that's not a new problem and probably, you know, it was worse. I think back in the 19 seventies of the period that I was studying, um and like that was really distressing. And I think part of the reason I kind of didn't ask her more questions about it was because hearing it, I didn't you know, like it's I've had my own struggles with [00:13:00] trans stuff as well, and I didn't necessarily, like, feel like I was a bit unprepared for it and having to talk about that kind of thing. And, uh, yeah, so that was That was really hard and it was hard having someone sitting in front of me telling me those stories and seeing her get emotional and that kind of thing. But equally listening to like Georgina Baer on the other pride NZ interviews is is really hard. But I think that it's also like, important to hear it, because otherwise I mean, that's not the full picture if you don't. And [00:13:30] it makes the other stories that they tell, like, have so much more kind of weight because you see that background of of the hard things and then the triumphs become even more triumph than I suppose you really did Throw yourself in, uh, to kind of queer, uh, research in 2017 when when you got an internship at the National Library, Uh, and you produced, uh, the history of New Zealand Research Guide. Tell me about that. That [00:14:00] was really that was really cool. That was, um, so I signed up for it was like a class at uni Uh, the B, a internship class. Um, and you went to, uh, classes every Tuesday up at the uni, and they taught you how to be a good intern, and then the other three days. Um, I spent down at the National Library, and I was I was so lucky that I got that placement that I did. And Roger Swanson, um, was my mentor there, Uh, and that was just It was so fantastic. And the fact that they let me do something that I was like, really interested in, um, [00:14:30] it was really exciting and just getting to like in history class. We don't really talk that much about, like, the archives and the museums and all those kind of like libraries and all the processes that go behind the gathering of the information that is being presented to historians. Um, and that was so interesting. That was really, really cool to learn about. And everyone there was so lovely. And it was actually because, like before then, I like every time I talk to someone like about what I wanna do, I wanna, you know, learn about trans [00:15:00] histories and queer histories, and he'll be like, Oh, but there's no such thing or there's none of those. There's not that out there. Why would you want to learn about that? There's What's the What's? Why is that important? But then going to the National Library. And they've given me this task, which is to write about and, you know, the research guy for queer history. That was really, really that put a fire in my be a little bit. So how how how do you go about finding sources? How do you go about finding collections? Because, as you say, a lot of this, uh, [00:15:30] that these histories are either hidden, they haven't been written about or they're kind of, um, masked and and and old language. I guess there was a lot more out there than I realised. Um, in terms of like, there's, like, the pride website, um, the lesbian and gay archives. Uh, they have so much stuff that I didn't realise. And, um and I realised as well, like, Yeah, I've been using the wrong language because I think amongst my age group, [00:16:00] there's a really stubborn insistence on not using transsexual, and we're queer, and we're transgender and gender queer, And I didn't I. I was never super stubborn about it. But those were the words I was using because that was the background I had. And then I realised, well, no, actually, this is People were using transsexual, and they still are, and they're still happy. That's the way they identify, and it's not a bad thing. And using those search terms and, um, I, uh, there was I've forgotten his name. Someone wrote a, uh, index of of homosexual [00:16:30] or, uh, like of queer, um, sources. Uh, I should find I could find it in or something. But he, uh it was this really thick book and that had a lot of stuff in it That was really helpful. Um, I, I don't know. I just did Lots and lots of googling. Lots of, uh, Roger gave me lots of help. Um, like knowing other people. And, um, I'd already started. That was I got that internship right after I'd done my New Zealand Social history paper. And that was when I first started looking [00:17:00] at trans histories. So I had already done a little bit of research and found things like, um uh, like like, uh, all the resources down at and that kind of thing. It it's interesting you talk about doing a lot of googling because that actually that brings up the point that, uh, not everything has been digitised. Not everything has been indexed online. And so there are probably a whole lot of hidden things in archives that haven't had the attention that maybe they should have had. Yeah, and that's, [00:17:30] um, like something that Roger Roger Swanson is, um, really aware of, I think, and he keeps finding stuff, um, that he brings up to me and it's un catalogued yet it's not catalogued yet, So, um, that's and I know that they're like, it's it's There's only so much manpower that that lesbian and gay archives have that they can, you know, be cataloguing stuff and putting stuff online. Um, but yeah, there's definitely there's so much out there, and I think as well, um, there's a lot out there that is kind of [00:18:00] like Aist historical, and that is not necessarily thought of it, because it doesn't fit into the whole Western history mindset of of this is rational history. It maybe can't be backed up by other, you know, rational sources or whatever it's people talking about, um, how they how they think about gender and things, and and the I know, um, the, uh, trans sexual activist organisation in the United States they, uh, believed [00:18:30] in aliens, um, contacting them and that they were that aliens would help further trans rights. And they once, uh, put a hex on on a a turfy lesbian, Um, in the 19 seventies and all those kind of things that, like historians kind of, I think ignore because it's how you can't write it about them in history because you can only write they believed in aliens because you don't have any sources to say. You know, the the aliens, they were having contact with aliens. You can't write that, But that's what they thought. [00:19:00] And you immediately kind of take away that authority. So I think there's a lot of that kind of information out there, which is just hard to know what to do with how to catalogue it, how to write about it in history. Um, and I think that that comes through in oral histories as well. A lot. Um, yeah, so that's that's there's so many so many different things to think about and and and in terms of oral history, now you've you've done a couple of oral histories. How was that for you? Because doing an oral history is quite different from, say, doing [00:19:30] this kind of interview where it's, you know, maybe 40 minutes. Oral histories are quite a lot more in depth. Yeah. Oh, it was so much fun. It was just really, really cool. Uh, I felt it felt like like I mean, it's a real privilege to be able to hear people speak about their histories and things. And, um particularly I didn't interview Jack Troo and I that was for in my oral history class this year. And, um, he was speaking just about how he conceptualised his gender and, um, [00:20:00] how he felt like he transitioned in order to express his femininity better, which is so contrary to the, you know, narrative. Obviously, if you're a trans guy, you're transitioning to be more masculine. But no, it was the opposite. And that really resonated with me because I realised that's how I felt. And I hadn't heard anyone articulate it that way. So, like, just on a really personal level, doing these oral histories has been really, really amazing. And And when I was talking about, like, a historical information, a lot of what I spoke about with Jack was very he was talking about, um, how [00:20:30] he he was. Really? He's really poetic when he speaks really beautiful in saying, um, how he feels like, uh, gender is is getting to experience death while we're alive and all these kind of concepts which are hard to know how to put in my research essays. But but, um, but I think it's so important, and I'm trying hard to and and, uh, all all that kind of that kind of thing, that, um, yeah, that's not that I. I don't know if I have the words to articulate [00:21:00] it. That kind of thing you briefly mentioned, um, turfy lesbian. And could you just describe to me what? What turfy lesbian? Um, so TFT ER F. That means, uh, trans exclusionary radical feminist, which I think is a bit of a misnomer because they're not feminists. And getting to and allowing them to call themselves feminists, even trans exclusionary radical ones, um, is not is not fair, But, um, [00:21:30] I think there there's a history just, um, in in Western queer history, I guess, of lesbians who feel that trans women are actually men and that to have trans women in lesbian spaces is to have men in lesbian spaces and that that's not on because they have male energies and they socialised as male and then that trans men are just poor little lesbians who have been given all these hormones and, oh, no. And so, yeah, that that's, um, [00:22:00] that I think. And I think that kind of attitude has come through in a lot of the history that's been written. And I think that's why so many Trans, uh, trans men are dismissed as or written down as lesbians when really they've got their whole lives saying I'm a man and then a lesbian historian comes along and is like, Oh, I actually know they were just a cross dresser. No, they they were they they were a lesbian. Well, they didn't use the word lesbian. They used the word man. You can't be a man and a lesbian. Well, maybe some people, but [00:22:30] they don't think that that's how they would have seen it themselves. Um, yeah, and so I think it's had a big influence on, um, academic and popular thought this lesbian mindset and the it was in Wellington over the last, uh, six months or so or even longer. Um, there have been some actions, um, that have drawn media attention around kind of turfs and, uh, the response [00:23:00] to to turfs can you describe some of the things that have been happening in Wellington? Yeah. So recently, a bunch of, um, posters and things have been put up that have been saying things like women shouldn't be a shouldn't be pressured to be attracted to men, which it's like, No, they shouldn't be. But it's kind of that, like, uh, soft intro to more radical ideas and then, um, pushing the idea that obviously trans women are in and that lesbians shouldn't be pressure to be attracted to [00:23:30] trans women. And it's like no one's pressuring you to be attracted to trans women. All we're asking for is that trans women can use the bathrooms Or, you know, trans women aren't excluded from women's spaces because trans women are women and they should be allowed in women's spaces. Um, but there's Yeah, there's been that, um a lot of those posters going around and then gender minorities, uh, has been really active at putting up counter posters. Um, that say things just like trans women are women and, um, indigenous Trans people [00:24:00] are our and that kind of thing. Um, but it's been sad as well because I've seen lots of those go up, which makes me really happy whenever I see those. But I was walking down Cuba Street yesterday and two of them someone had ripped off the corner. That said, Trans Woman a woman and I was like, These people were awful like they're ripping down Um, so they've been There's a Facebook group called, uh, turf Watch a, um, and gender Minorities have been active on that and, uh, have been sending [00:24:30] posters and stickers to people and, uh, people. I I'm waiting on some to arrive and gonna go stick them up. And, um, it's really nice to see the counter, the M MA and, like people like Marama Davidson from the Green Party have been really vocal, uh, at standing up against the turfs, which is really good. Um, and I do think there's a lot more of the anti turfs than there are turfs, but it's still just it's so draining and sad to see that these people are still out there and they're really concerned. [00:25:00] Apparently, they're concerned about trans Children and pumping them full of hormones. And and trans Children don't really exist. There's only men and girl boys and girls, and you're confusing them and all that kind of, um, all that kind of thing, Which I guess I think that that's like the consequence of visibility, right? Is the backlash and yeah, yeah, I was gonna ask. I mean, why now? Why? Why is why is this happening now? I'm not 100% sure. There was something on the Facebook page that was talking [00:25:30] about, uh I think they were saying, There's there's kind of these three women who are behind it. And apparently it's someone's personal vendetta. Someone just, uh some. I think someone called them out on on Twitter, I think. Or something. Uh, if they'd said something that wasn't appropriate, that was transphobic. Someone called them out, and now they're trying to organise against it. Um, and I? I don't know. I don't I don't know the specifics of it, but I know there was a woman born women festival for a while for a few years, [00:26:00] and that got shut down. I think in the last few years I'm not sure, though, um, because they were excluding trans women, and there were, uh, there was Yeah, there was anger about that. And so the festival got shut down. And I think a lot of people are angry about about that which I I understand. Like it's amazing to have a space where women can feel comfortable and free. But it should be for all women, not just for some women into, uh, reiterate The idea that Trans women [00:26:30] aren't women is just such a violent thing to do. And yeah. So I Yeah, there's, I think I think there's, like, some little like, personal politics going on that I'm not really aware of, because I'm I think I'm a bit young, and I'm still kind of coming into the queer community, you know, but yeah. And what's your perception of, uh, I, I guess Looking at both discrimination and support, uh, for, um, kind of for the trans community within the the wider queer community. Do you? I mean, [00:27:00] is there support and discrimination going on there? Yeah, I definitely I definitely think so. I think, um, there's a lot like I, I think in terms of my age group generally, people are supportive. I think trans is almost a cool thing now, which in some ways is good but in other ways. Like, um, I have a lot of friends who study at Massey and or people I know who study at Massey, and they are doing things. Uh, like I've got this gender neutral [00:27:30] clothes that I'm making. I'm doing a gender neutral photo shoot, but all they're doing is getting their male friends to put dresses on and their female friends put suits on, which just reiterates the idea again that trans women and men in dresses and and and they don't understand they're not talking to trans people about their ideas. And they don't understand the history of those ideas and what it is that they're saying when they put those kind of things out there, which is frustrating. And, um so I don't know, I haven't counted an awful lot of outright discrimination from other [00:28:00] queer people within my, um, my kind of group. And I've been lucky. I haven't just in terms of queer spaces. Generally, I haven't encountered much resistance, which is really nice, but I do know I was I was warned that there was someone at the national library. I don't I don't think I don't know if this is true for someone. I mean, I haven't encountered whoever this person potentially is but who was not on board with trans people. And I was like, Oh, and I was nervous about that, but it never happened. They were [00:28:30] all lovely. But I know that there's there's people out there. Um, but I I haven't encountered them, I guess. And when you say your age group Oh, yeah, What kind of age group are you talking about? So I'm 21. Um, So I guess, Yeah, people kind of like, I guess, 18 to 24. I most of the people that I talk with and stuff just getting back to the, uh the the Queer History of New Zealand Research Guide. [00:29:00] Uh, you mentioned on that page, uh, that there are some either hidden or underrepresented communities. Um, that that you couldn't find information about what kind of communities are are you talking about? Um, the intersex community was the big one, which I felt I was Really I would love to find more information and make that more accessible for people because I think, uh, with people like Marie Mitchell, [00:29:30] who's an insect activist? Uh um, doing all the work that they do. They do such amazing work and they're so hard working. But like I think I think there's a documentary about them and there's their, uh, website, and that's kind of it. And there's nothing kind of written about it. Um, also, it's hard to find information about, um, other like sexualities beyond gay and lesbian as well. Um, like bisexual? There was a little bit, but [00:30:00] not much. Um, and in terms of oh, and then I guess the other big one that I'm missing is just like, um, history, indigenous, queer history, uh, a queer history of Of generally non-white people in New Zealand. Um, there's there are there's some I've forgotten exactly what it's called, but there's like a a blog, which is about Asian queer experiences and that kind of thing, which is which is cool. But there's not an awful lot. I think that, like, explicitly addresses [00:30:30] the intersection of race and queerness, which I think is a big, big, big, big thing that's missing. Um, yeah, those would be the main one, and and I mean, there's all sorts of gender identities, like like when you're searching like we were saying before, you have to use the word transsexual if you're looking for histories. Um, but now that there's more things, uh, coming out there but there's not much there for, like, non-binary identities and stuff. Um, yeah. So but mostly mostly, uh, like, uh, non-white, uh, [00:31:00] histories of people in history, As I'd say, the ones that I tried hardest to find and couldn't. Well, I guess one way of addressing that is to become part of an organisation that is charged with with capturing, um, all our queer histories, which is the Lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand. And you became a board member, uh, earlier this year. Yeah, that was really that was really cool. I was, um because Roger Swanson is [00:31:30] on the board, and he was my mentor at the National Library, and he was like, Oh, would you like to come along to a meeting? And I was like, Oh, absolutely. And then at this meeting, they were saying, Oh, you know, we really need new board members and we really need board members who who are Trans and and also young. And I was sitting there and I was like, Oh, that's me um and I didn't think I kind of I was like, Oh, wouldn't that be cool? But I didn't actually seriously think that they they'd want me on the board. But then Roger came to me the next day and he said, Ask me if I. I wanted to, [00:32:00] uh wanted to join in and that's been that's been really interesting. I'm so, so grateful that they want me to be a part of it and, um, I just go to I don't do too much really. I just go to board meetings. I've been to a couple of working bees and stuff, but in terms of actually like the actual organisation I've been to, I go to. We have board meetings every the first Tuesday of every second month. Um and I've been to those and there's been there's a lot of, like talk about financial matters and stuff which I'm not very clued up on. I know finances [00:32:30] and all that, Um but it's so interesting to hear them talk about, um, queer archives and how to preserve histories how to promote the archives and promote those histories and my role. Um, we've only just decided, uh, is going to be focusing on queer youth engagement. Uh, one thing I'd really love to do, but I don't know what the like policies and stuff are behind it yet, but which this summer, I'm hoping to um I'm hoping to get involved in would be making something like an instagram for [00:33:00] the archives just to because I think that'd be a great way to get people my age and younger, um, involved in it and show what the collections are, and especially because the website is kind of hard to search. And it's when you're new to it. You want to be seeing you're used to seeing the photos and everything. You want to know what it looks like. Um, so I think that would be a really cool thing to to try and do. Um, yeah, and And I've been telling all my friends about it. I always tell all my friends about it, and I get I updated my [00:33:30] facebook to say that I was a board member because it sounds so cool. And obviously because I'm proud about it and stuff. Um, and and yeah, uh, you know, all those people who said, Oh, I'm gonna make it out now I'm a board member. Not that they know exactly what it's about. But anyway, I updated that on Facebook, and all these people were liking and commenting on it. And now I get all these messages and they're saying, Oh, do you have videos of this or do you have photos of that? And I'm like, we should go to the archives. I can. I'll send. I'll send a link to this. This might be a good a good source, but [00:34:00] they they think I've got it. Got it on my laptop. That's not quite how it works, but but, yeah, that's been really cool. So I'm hoping to, um, and once this this summary, I think I'm gonna I've got a couple of ideas that I wanna work up and and propose stuff to the to the rest of the book. Yeah. So why do you think it is important to have a community archive or a niche archive in this case, looking at kind of, um uh, queer history? Uh, verse, [00:34:30] uh, something like a or a national library, which collects a broad range of things. I think that there's just, like so many kind of specific things that, uh, like, uh, problems or or um Dinas that are specific to queer histories and queer like archival information that that requires that kind of specific attention. And I think it's It's just it's just so important to, um know that there's a place like it. It makes it feel [00:35:00] more important. It gives it that space that like, Oh, there's a whole archives This is the lesbian and gay archives. It's got the queer histories. It's It gives it that sense of importance, I think, which is really, which is really necessary. Um and yeah, uh, and I think if you've not got people specifically looking for it and people who have got that, if they're part of the community and we've got that information, then it's easy for it to get pushed aside, or that, you know. But if there's a group that's constantly dedicated to looking [00:35:30] for it, then it's not gonna go away any any time soon or will be pushed to the back. Yeah, so just thinking in terms of like, uh, your own opinion Now, in terms of what are some of the biggest challenges facing, uh, an organisation like, what would the what would those be? I think one of the big issues like we touched on for is how to categorise a lot of this information. Um, in light of new vocabulary that we have to explain things. But, you know, you can't know if someone would have [00:36:00] identified as non binary and all that kind of thing. So there's all those kind of kind of challenges which I think, uh oh, we can overcome. And And I think it just takes a little bit of thinking about it and sitting down and, uh, that kind of thing, I think resources and things. It's, uh because I know that, um, the National Library only has a certain amount of space, and it's housed at the National Library. And, um, especially digital. Uh uh, having a space to store digital things online. Um, and, uh, [00:36:30] one of the big things is like, how does how do we preserve things like Facebook? Groups like this turf watch group or I'm part of a group, um, on Facebook. Uh, which is a secret group, uh, for trans guys. And there's so much information on there, and that's been that's been a huge help to me. And there's so like, we're talking about how which doctors are the best to go to. People ask, Oh, what barbers do you go to What are gonna be? Pardon me. Pardon me. Where [00:37:00] Where can I go that they're gonna be nice and, uh, all sorts of information? Um, like almost quasi counselling and stuff goes on. So it's all, really there's some really personal stuff on there. Um, and I know that, like with Facebook, there's just the problems with Facebook generally and trying to archive that kind of thing. But like all those people who there's like 300 of us in that group, and you'd have to get all of the information and and there's all that sensitive stuff, but it's so important, and it's such a big thing. [00:37:30] And it's such a huge way that, um, that the Trans guys in New Zealand are communicating. There's over 303 100 of us on there and it's active every day. And how do we How can we preserve that because I think it's so important. Um, so, yeah, I think I think that's one of the biggest biggest changes which I think will become even bigger is just preserving all those digital digital, uh, communities and And things are moving so fast nowadays, I mean, and and just in terms of actions or reactions, uh, you know, I think [00:38:00] of Twitter and and, you know, the the amount of information that's coming in. Um I mean, how do you How do you catalogue that stuff? How do you How do you How do you preserve it? Beats me. I don't I don't know. I think III I, um I I have a really big collection on my laptop of Screenshots of Things, um which I don't know if that would ever be able to be the kind of thing that's archived, but I think it's just important to to have it have it there. And I, I don't know. I think I I would love [00:38:30] to learn more about about about this because I think that I think I think that's a That's something that I kind of learned this year last year and just the importance of archiving which I think is missed out when you do history in high school, at bachelor's level at uni and how, like all of these challenges and stuff, I think it's just important that we keep learning about it at all levels, not just at the higher levels, which takes us nicely on to your current research project. Tell me about that. Um [00:39:00] so I'm in my honours year of history, which is my fourth year of study at Uni at Victoria University. Um, and my honours thesis, which is just 10,000 words, uh, is on transgender communities in Wellington in the 19 seventies. Um, and my supervisor is Sabella luck, and she's so cool. Um, and she does a lot of oral history stuff, So she's been really, really helpful there. And, um, yeah, that's so that's so the big thing that that I found in the 19 seventies in [00:39:30] Wellington was that it seems to me that there were kind of two major communities, Um, and so when I say trans community, I always mean like in the plural, because there's always there's never just one trans community, queer community or anything, right? It's always there's always multiple Um, And whenever there's a community of some people that automatically means that others are excluded. So there's all those kinds of tensions and things, and, um, but anyway, so I found I think that the two major kind of sites of community [00:40:00] for trans people in Wellington in the 19 seventies were the what I call the night scene. Um, which is people like Carmen, Carmen Rupe and and Georgina Bio. Um, the person I interviewed, uh, all those kind of people who were active in the nightclubs and and, um, kind of the most marginalised people in society. Really? The, uh, most of them are trans women. Most of them are women of colour. Most of them are. A lot of them are six workers. Um, and [00:40:30] they have a very, you know, specific relationship with the public with public spaces and that the public don't want them in their spaces. So I think the 19 seventies, when Trans women of colour started or I don't know if about started, but they were taking control, putting, getting public spaces in their own hands. Carmen and her nightclubs, Chrissy to all those kinds of people creating spaces for themselves that were not only safe spaces and social spaces where trans people were meeting other trans [00:41:00] people. Trans people were discovering trans people for the first but also important sites for economic reasons, you know, giving giving themselves an income and and a way to stay alive. In that sense, um, and then the other major group, um, that I found was the kind of membership only club. So, uh, there was a group called Founded in 1972 by Christine Young in lower hut. Um, and that was primarily it was started for married heterosexual [00:41:30] transvestites. Um, but then very quickly, they became more inclusive of of transsexuals and transvestites. And it was kind of it seems to me like it was about 50 50 transvestite transsexuals and a lot of them, uh, started or thought that they were transvestite and then realised they were transsexual and vice versa. Um, but that group, uh, seems to be predominantly, if not entirely white and predominantly middle class, middle upper class. Um, [00:42:00] and they were very much keen to talk to, um, like, uh, people in the medical and legal, uh, institutions. And they would sit down and have conversations with counselling services and all of that kind of thing with the police, Um, and talk about what they can do for trans people. But it was very much they were not at all like the people from the night scene, and they did not want to be associated with the queens of the night scene. They were not sex workers. [00:42:30] They were sexually normative. They were, um they were very respectable citizens, and they were decent and hardworking. And and, uh, they weren't anything like the sex workers on on the street scene. And that kind of that's very much, uh, what they what they talk about in their newsletters and things. Yeah. I mean, that's really fascinating in terms of, uh, the the whole idea of assimilation to to to be seen as, um, just [00:43:00] part of mainstream society, Uh, versus actually just just being yourself. Talk to me about that because, I mean, that still plays out with a lot of people, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I even feel that in my personal life, like am I am I being an assimilationist by, you know, just, uh, working within history and that kind of thing But I think in terms of the 19 seventies in Wellington, I definitely I mean, it's I. I do feel for them in the membership [00:43:30] only group because they just want to be accepted, and that's the way they were going about it. But equally they were very derogatory to a lot of the street queens and things. Um, they I, I don't think they they my interviewee asked to join them and was turned away, and she was told that it was because she was transsexual and it was only for transvestites. And that's what she that's what she she was. She was like, OK, she didn't realise that. Actually, there were a lot of transsexuals in there. It wasn't because she wasn't a transvestite. [00:44:00] It was because she was Maori and because she was a sex worker. And so they were definitely. I think that it's the, um, the whole idea of of portraying trans people as respectable citizens that relies on that process of secondary marginalisation and um distinguishing themselves as better by comparison to this other group. And so any kind of, uh gains that are made through that assimilationist politics is made to benefit only that group and [00:44:30] the people who need it the most are left on the margins. So I think, like and I know um oh, what what's her name? Um, Chelsea Manning was talking about There was a NZ Express the Gay Express article about that, and she was talking about, uh, how that plays out today. And I read that, and I thought, I think it's always it's always been there. Um, there's always been that tension. Um and I think I mean, definitely there's something to be said for talking to, uh, like the police [00:45:00] talking to counselling, uh, going They went to a lot of universities and stuff, and I think that's still a good thing to do, but it needs to be inclusive of everyone. And it needs to There also needs to be that more. I think, like direct action alongside because Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think I think the people from the membership only clubs like their whole lives before they they were kind of had so much privilege, their whole lives and have had [00:45:30] institutions look after them and have never had a problem with them until they kind of realise their sense of gender transgression. And so they've never had a problem with these things. So why not work with them? Um, and kind of try and neutralise the more non normative aspects of their personality versus people like Georgina Bao when she's talking about it, She's, you know, never been supported by these institutions. So it makes no sense to try and work with them if they're not even gonna listen. Yeah. So how did you find out [00:46:00] the information about the group? Um, they have they published newsletters from 1974 onwards. Um, and that is with the lesbian and gay archives. Um, and they in 1976 1 of the members of called Gillian Cox She was transsexual and her wife, Margaret. They made another organisation called Transformation and Transformation. Um, also have newsletters and documents in Lisbon and gay archives. And so my research on them predominantly, [00:46:30] um, came from those two sources. And then there was a member of called, uh, Leonie Neil, and she was really active in the 19 nineties. Um, and she did lots of interviews with broadsheet and, uh, some women's magazines in the Australia and stuff. Um, and so and she talks a fair bit about that kind of thing. And she also did some research papers with the minorities trust in the 19 nineties. 1991 I think. And she talks a lot [00:47:00] about her experiences back in the seventies. Um, so I got some information from that as well, and that was really useful because in the newsletters, they actually they only talk about race once and in the 19 seventies, at least I read every single copy. They only mentioned race once, and it was to say, one of our members is, um, conversing with AAA Negro, um, transvestite, Negro transsexual in the United States. That's right. She's talking to a coloured, you know, TV and I was like, Well, [00:47:30] that's, you know, it's very It's clearly it was a very surprising thing for them. It was not normal for them to do that, and that's the only time they mention it. And they live in New Zealand, and people like Carmen are the most you know, you know, visible trans people, and they'd never talk about Maori trans sexuality or anything. So I was like, That's clearly a big thing. And then later, Leonie Neil talks a lot about how, um she didn't want to. She didn't want to be seen like a queen. She and she talks. You make some kind of remarks which are not [00:48:00] very, uh, she talks. That kind of is very dismissive of of Maori people and and the intersection or kind of struggles that they've faced with race as well coming into the picture. Um, so that was really informative. But also, I'm aware that it's 20 years later that she's writing it. So not sure, but, uh, yeah, I'm not sure. She may not have held those years in the 19 seventies, but it seems likely because of just the absence of it, of talking about race, that that was how most of them [00:48:30] felt. Another thing that that that really comes to mind When when you're talking about kind of just referencing newsletters is sometimes the kind of the, um when information is so sparse. You know, you've only got one source, like, for instance, newsletters. Uh, was that really what they thought? Yeah. Um, you know, you might only that might be one editor's opinion. Yeah, definitely. And, yeah, there's definitely They encouraged members to write in, but it pretty much was mostly like a kind of group [00:49:00] of, of maybe four of them who were writing most of the time. Uh, Christine Young and Joanna Gall, who was the leader of the Auckland chapter and she became the leader when Christine Young passed away and that they are kind of the two main voices that you hear in most of those and it. And I think it's interesting when they write about gay liberation. It becomes really clear that there does seem to have been a kind of, um, a divide between [00:49:30] what the leadership felt and what the kind of rank and file member felt. And there were only ever, I think, Max 100 150 members. But, um, they kind of they write about because I guess that's the one thing that they did, which it does seem kind of radical. They were quite involved in gay liberation, and they went along to a lot of panel discussions and meetings, and they held panels on transsexual and stuff. Um, which is really cool. Uh, and but then the other group the night scene, I don't think were quite as accepted in a lot of ways, so, [00:50:00] you know, But, uh, anyway, so they would They would talk, they would write all these, uh, articles in the newsletter and they would say things like, um, you know, we have to understand that at least 30% of our members have come from gay groups, and and and, you know, even though most of us are heterosexual, we have to understand that they are homosexuals and that it's OK, um, and we have to support our gay brothers and sisters because they live in closets, too, just like we do. And we've got a lot of these shared struggles. Um, so [00:50:30] we need to support them. And so the fact that they sound like they're trying to be persuasive makes me think that there were there were people who needed persuading in the group. So I think that and and they write all the time about how it's OK to be You can be trans and not be homosexual and and it's OK, but but, you know, homosexuals are OK, but but it's OK. We we are mostly heterosexual, and we're mostly married and we've got Children, and we're not. We're not sexually perverse at all. We only do it for femininity, not because of sexual [00:51:00] pleasure and all those kind of conversations about, um, sexuality is such a you know, it's so, uh, they they're trying really hard to make it, uh, a normal thing and an OK thing. Whereas it's so kind of taboo, right to talk about sexuality, Um, so that that's really interesting. And that's, I think, a large part of why they dismiss the night scene because of the whole sex work aspect. And that's the most sexually non normative thing you can do. You're not only a a woman, I mean, well, a trans [00:51:30] woman giving pleasure to a man. You're doing it for money on the street, like, Wow, that's, you know, uh, this is these people who are We're living in good suburban homes with our wives and Children, um, and trying to emphasise that about themselves. But yeah, I think I just rambled on a little bit there. So it's really fascinating to think that so, like those newsletters, uh, this is this is well before homosexual law. Um, so to actually put things in writing is is kind of interesting. [00:52:00] Um, but also to hear you talk about that. They were involved, um, in law reform because, um, from a lot of the media coverage I've seen of the law reform around the eighties, there's not a lot of mention of, if any mention of kind of, um, transgender support for law reform or activism or anything like that. And actually, that's like one of the going back to when I was talking about being frustrated and stuff. I'm so sick [00:52:30] of reading histories that are only about gay men and lesbians, maybe bisexual people, but that say, you know, on the back they're like this wonderful history of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, and they never mention transgender people. But that's always the little catch all phrase at the back. It's always the LG this book about or this article about the LGBT community, and they never mention trans people. Or if they do, it's to say, Oh, and they didn't really accept trans people or they were trans people. But they mention it once, and that's kind of it, Um, [00:53:00] but they were so they were definitely a part of it, and that's what I want to. I didn't focus on that, um, so much in my research because I had to narrow the scope of it to fit it into 10,000 word. But, uh, next year I'm thinking I would really like to investigate trans involvement in gay liberation, and I and and like with it seems like he had quite a good relationship with gay liberation because they were often invited along, um, to give panels and speeches and stuff. But I think, uh, again, [00:53:30] it's because they were I'm trying to say we're respectable and we're fine and we're quiet. And they weren't out and about protesting so much as as these people on the night scene were, um but, yeah, I think there's so much out there that I would really love to investigate more, Um, because it's so important and it's still in it. And it, uh, it's still going on today. Even though, you know, I think trans is becoming cooler. There's still, uh, like I do get from like I was saying, with [00:54:00] the students doing all these projects that don't seem to really take into account actual lived experiences of being Trans and and people I know who are gay and but they don't. They're like, Oh, yeah, I support trans people, but they don't really know anything about it And they don't really understand the history of Trans people being involved in it. And they don't see it as a as that kind of shared struggle, even though there's obviously differences and there's different things that we need to fight for. But yeah, but but seeing us as needing to support one another, [00:54:30] I guess, is what I'm meaning. It's interesting, just as you're talking. I was just actually thinking of one of the only bits of TV footage I can recall around kind of transgender issues around homosexual law reform. And that would have been Georgina Baer in, um, which kind of air? I think it was 85 86 but there was not a lot of footage that I've seen around that that that that kind of reference kind of, um, transgender activism around, uh, law [00:55:00] reform. Is it? Is it one of your drivers to not only write about kind of transgender histories, but also to actually make sure that they're recorded? Yeah, definitely. I don't know. I don't know if I if it's one of those kind of summer plans that I I say I'm gonna do. But I never actually end up doing I hope I hope I do it. Um, but this this summer, I really want to get some get the recording equipment, uh, from, uh, the honours history department and talk [00:55:30] to just as many people as I can get my hands on and just start recording things even without a without a project in mind or anything like like like, I think what you do is just so important because it's these, um, people you know are getting older, and it's important to record their voices because there are these histories that are gonna are gonna stay hidden unless we unless we record their eyes. So, yeah, that that's something I really want to do. Um, and just in general, I think I think I think just [00:56:00] oral history is just unbelievably important to queer histories and trans histories, um, to record all those all those stories? Um, yeah, yeah, I think. And I think because I think as well a lot of the narratives around trans people are framed by medical and legal professionals. And so to put it in the hands of trans people with the trans people like me. Like writing the history or the actual people that I'm interviewing. That you're interviewing [00:56:30] is so important, right to, um, fight back against that patho organisation of of Trans Identities. And and like I was saying to say that Trans people are more than their identities and they're politically active, and even when they're not politically active, they're still important. And they're still, you know, it's like every other group. Well, not every other group, but other groups get the history of just their mundane daily lives recorded, and and trans people barely get more than the fact that they're trans recorded. So, yeah, [00:57:00] what do do you have any thoughts on, um, peer interviewing. So, like, do you think, uh, gay men should interview gay men? Trans should interview trans Les men should interview lesbian? Or do you think are there pros and cons for? For that? I think there's pros and cons. Yeah, Yeah, I think, um, I think it's so important that queer people are able to interview other queer people because I think that there's certain questions that you just don't know to ask unless [00:57:30] you are queer, right? And like in terms of Trans, as I've done for so many of my peers and stuff, asked me to, um, want to interview me for various so many that makes me sound myself. But people, people, I think I'm the only trans person that quite a few people know that are just in my circles. I run an unfortunately cisgender. Um, so you know, people ask me questions about things, Um, and they just don't know what to ask. And I'm [00:58:00] like, Well, I could tell you about all sorts of different things. Um, but with things like I don't know, like dysphoria um, a lot of cisgender people not even knowing what the word dysphoria means or on or when they do, only focusing on dysphoria and only focusing on the struggling aspect of of trans lives when there's gender euphoria. And there's all the exciting parts of it and all the fun parts of gender exploration and and being trans that, um, picked up on because again that narrative has come [00:58:30] from medical and legal institutions or when it hasn't. It's come from media. Who loves to see trans people as these exciting. Um, you know, perverse kind of people. Um, yeah. So I think it's important, Like, because there's only certain questions that other queer people know to ask. But then as well, um, if you're on the inside, maybe there are. There are things that, um, you forget to ask because you already know what it means. So you don't ask about it. Um and also I think [00:59:00] that it's important. Like, I've been very aware of the fact that I'm so in awe of these people that I'm interviewing and writing about because I know that my life would not be possible without any of these people having done what they've done and having to step away from that a little bit and be the critical historian and and ask the harder questions and and kind of disrupt that narrative of of heroism, necessarily, which is not always so productive. And just that whole kind of, um, discrimination [00:59:30] resistance paradigm, which I think structures so much of queer history that before stonewall everyone was in the dark, and after stonewall, everyone was liberated, which is so not true. Um, it's so much more nuanced than that. And, uh, I think interviewing across sexualities and stuff, uh, is a really important way of cross. Uh, is a really important way of disrupting all those kind of meta narratives and mythologies that are so unquestioned. Well, one of the [01:00:00] things I was gonna ask you, uh, just in terms of how things may or may not have changed was, um, uh, you mentioned in your conclusion in your research about, um, Georgina buyer, uh, having a really brutal assault in Sydney in the late 19 seventies. And I was wondering, um, just in terms of violence towards trans people say, um in New Zealand and and maybe in particular in Wellington has that has that changed? I mean, [01:00:30] what what? What is it like now? I guess for for trans people, I think I don't know again because I didn't, like, want to focus my research on that because it's so, like, hard to hear, like, you were saying. But I don't think I don't think it has changed. As much as people would think it's changed. I think that, uh, again with I think I think trans people in the 19 seventies were really visible with people like Carmen and stuff and [01:01:00] that that did result in a lot of violence. And then I think people again, Trans people are really visible again and it's it's it's still it's still happening. And, like I personally, they have been beaten up as well. And that was I don't think. I mean, they didn't know I was Trans. They called me a faggot. So and that was only one time on the Wellington waterfront. And I think people like Georgina Baer had that happen a lot and to a lot worse extent, like I had a you know, a bit of a, uh uh, I think it was mild brain trauma or something, [01:01:30] but I was up and back to, you know, walk. I was walking around and stuff, uh, straight afterwards. But, you know, it wasn't it wasn't super brutal or anything, but it was. It was still, obviously it's still shocking and stuff. But, um, you know that that that really shocked me because I did feel safe in Wellington until that happened. And then with people like, uh, what's her last name? Xena. Zena Campbell. Um, on a street and knowing that I used to walk along that street every day when I was at my old flat. Um, [01:02:00] and that's really scary and knowing that the people who attacked me and my friends are still out there and the police haven't been able to catch. And there's no CCTV, uh, down by the waterfront and, um uh, and it's I can't remember who I was talking about it with, but, uh, with things like the um Wellington Pride Precinct, which is going up soon with the the Rainbow Walkway and stuff like That's really cool. And I'm glad that I I would love Rainbow Walkway. But I'd also love some more [01:02:30] CCTV cameras around and some more lights in certain areas and more kind of practical measures that can be taken because I think when now that Trans people are so visible again or are more visible than they've ever been, there's a sense that, like, Oh, all the battles have already been won. But visibility isn't the battle, really. It's It's all these kind of practical things health care, the big one, but yeah, in terms of in terms of feeling safe around Wellington, I do during the day, [01:03:00] but not at night, and I don't I mean with my friends in general, I like Like I said, most of my friends asked us, and I, um we're all very careful after that happened to me to message each other When we get home and make sure we're never alone or if we are, we're on the phone with each other because there are these people out there who just, uh don't don't care. Um, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I think it's this and [01:03:30] I and I mean and then in saying that as well, I'm a white, trans masculine person, so I know I don't even get the worst of it, right? Like it's 10 million times harder for, um, a trans woman of colour, that kind of thing. Um, yeah. So it's there's so much that needs to be done. Um, and and so much. Yeah. So much educating That needs to happen, I think. What? What did you take away from hearing the stories of [01:04:00] life in the seventies? What? What what's the biggest kind of take take away for you? The thing that struck me the most in which really made me feel quite like hopeful was, regardless of whether it was people from the 19 or people from the membership only club. Um, they all emphasised the importance of friendship, which, like, is just really sweet. And that whole message of, um, at the end of the day, we need to band together, even [01:04:30] though there were these quite severe distinctions between these two kind of groups but within the groups. And I think the night scene they were more accepting of the membership on the club than the membership on the club or the night scene. Um, yeah, but yeah, just just the importance of of friends and of trans friends. And when I was talking to Dianne, uh, I asked her how her friendships with, um, trans people compared to her friendships with with queens and without missing a beat, [01:05:00] she said they were solid, solid sisterhood, soulmates forever and ever. And she just rattled off this kind of list of synonyms. And I was like, Oh, just have me beaming because I was like, This is just so sweet. And two of her best friends were sitting in the room next door to us when we were talking. And just like how strong those friendships are, Um, yeah and that made me feel. And that made me reflect on the friendships I do have with trans people and like some of the people closest to me and, uh, or just other queer people and how [01:05:30] important those are and how I do hope that they're friendships for life. And I think they will be, because I am seeing them form in the same kind of way that Dianne's friendships formed out of the same kind of background. If that makes sense of of queer people sharing their experiences with each other and helping each other, Yeah, so that's that's been the nicest thing. I think the thing that's resonated the most.
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