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[00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] So just to say very briefly, First of all, for our ancestors, but tonight, on this evening, to welcome all peoples, for gay men, for gay women, for non binary people, we are all part of Papatūānuku. And so to each and every one of [00:02:00] you, tēnā poutou, tēnā poutou, tēnā tātou katoa, kia tātou. I runga i te, ka koe, e te tūakana. Um, [00:02:30] and we're going to sing a . One that I have yet to figure out what that's going to be, but just join in and, uh, we'll go from there, eh? So, um, other than that, I think that's probably the mai ngā iwi, tātou[00:03:00] tātou e. Tētia mai ngā iwi, tātou tātou e. Waiā te mai.[00:03:30] [00:04:00] I know my.[00:04:30] [00:05:00] Ngāti Porou, Ngāhui, Te Rarawa, me o rātou mokopuna ah. Ki tēnā, kā tuku mihi ahau ki ngā mana[00:05:30] Uh, so, um, yeah. My name is Jamie . I am the convener. Um, apologies for my scrambled ness. I was called last night, so I'm trying. Um, but do feel free to [00:06:00] criticize. I can take it. Um, But yeah, thanks everyone for coming, and, uh, this, this Hui itself is about, uh, connecting as, I would say, as a hapuri, uh, you know, whānau a niwaniwa Hui, so essentially together we're creating A new hapū, not a Māori hapū, but a [00:06:30] Takatāpui hapū in, um, Pōneke, and this is the beginning of many kaupapa, and the first thing we need to acknowledge is, of course, uh, those who have come before us. Um, Which is why we got these two massive rangatira, these huge pou, um, because I'm not going to be any good about talking about the past. Um, just while we're here though, I just want to acknowledge, um, those who have come before me, in [00:07:00] particular, and that's, uh, Tuawhale Tanuai from Tamaki Makaurau, um, she's a huge, huge influence on my journey. Also, Tanu, Tanu Ngango from Tamaki Makaurau. And, um, Some of my whānau members that they already know. Um, but yeah, so I want to pass it on to Rangimoana Taylor. Nō Ngāti Porou. [00:07:30] Te koroua nō Ngāti Porou. Um, pai. Okay. Kia ora tātou anō. So, there are a couple of things I want to just talk about. Um, one of the things is I have been often dealing with people who are anti everything. And one of the things is they talk about that there has to be male and female and they always quote me Genesis, [00:08:00] which says, God said go forth and multiply. Well at that time there were two people on the earth, according to them, Adam and Eve. With now 8. 5 billion, do you not think the multiplication could stop? I don't know. The other thing as a youngster and um.. When you have, um, sort of been straight, and then you suddenly realize this is not where you want to be. But when you're young, you sort of get a [00:08:30] bit frightened, and this was in the, um, early 60s. So you go to someone, and you ask them. You tell them about what you are, and you think, I know they're going to, you know, they're going to help me, and this and that. No. Not at all. You filthy, dirty little boy, was what I got. And then they said to me, You have to say this, Satan, get you behind me. And I said, Oh, surely to the [00:09:00] side of me, but I just want to go for a little bit longer if that's okay, because I want to just talk to something. There has been a lot of, um, I remember people who are anti us. It doesn't matter what you are, they're anti us. So I found this, and it is true in Leviticus, it does talk about gay people. [00:09:30] But, there was a person on the radio in the States who was very, and quoted the Bible at it. But, this was the reply. Thank you for trying to educate people regarding God's law. I've learned a lot of, from your show, but can I just ask you something? What's that? Well, I, when I burn a bull on the altar, I know it creates a very [00:10:00] pleasing, um, smell to the Lord. Unfortunately, my neighbors hate it, and should I kill myself over this? I would like, and it says that we can use slavery. So, I would like to sell my daughter into slavery as sanctioned by Exodus this day and age. What do you think would be a fair price for her? The other things, I know I'm not allowed to contract, contact women while she is in your period of the menstrual [00:10:30] cycle. The problem is, how do I tell? I've tried asking, but most women will take offense. Leviticus, that I may indeed possess slaves, it says so, male and female. Provided you have purchased them from a neighboring country. So here in Aotearoa, we cannot take anyone from this country, but you can enslave anyone from Australia. Because that's what it says. [00:11:00] I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Clearly it states that I should put him to death. Am I obliged to do this? A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Is it a less abomination than homosexuality? I can't agree. Can you settle this for me? Most of my male friends have actually had their beards trimmed. [00:11:30] It says this is prohibited in Leviticus. So, how should we kill them? My uncle has a farm. He violates the law by planting two different crops in two, in the same field. This is an abomination according to you. What do we do with people who do this in the law? And the other thing it says, if a woman wears two types of, [00:12:00] um, materials, she should be put to death. This is from the Bible. This is actually, it says that. So, having done the study of these, it really annoys people when they quote to me about homosexuality. And I say, so, do you agree in slavery? Do you agree that women should be burnt? Another one was that women do, um, this, um, that they should be, if they wear these things, [00:12:30] they should be stoned. The city should come out. And the person said, I live in New York. It's quite a lot to try and get 310 million people to come and do the stoning. Could we just make this a family affair? No reira, tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. Kia ora mai rā. Kia ora. Uh, I think we all know, um, well for me, Jamie gender fluid convener. Um, [00:13:00] I find this interesting, eh? Oh, I don't find that interesting. I know that's like huge conversations all over Te Ao, you know, preach the Bible, but the Bible says many things. We are all sinners. Um, in Te Ao Maori, it is said, and it always comes down to what you believe in, in your own hapu and whānau, it is said that this world is the world of sinners. This is a sinful world, it is a hateful world. And this is not to say that [00:13:30] you are angels or you are going to hell. This is the way this world is because the other world, besides this world, is Rarohinga. And in Māoridom, Rarohinga is where angels go, this is where.. Tā moko comes from, this is where ruru come from, this is where raranga comes from, and this is where people don't hit and people don't raise their voices. So this world, in contrast to that, is very much like hau, right? [00:14:00] So, um, in terms of the Christian Bible.. You've got those things that depict sinful behavior and in terms of Māori whakaaro, this world itself where the earth opens up and volcanic lava swallows people is a sinful place. Um, because the terminology is not translatable. Um, there was heaps and, and.. [00:14:30] There was a lot to absorb in that, I think, that chewed up some of my, um, chewing gum. Um, but the Fakaro hasn't changed much around the world. There are still people who, who don't believe we have the right to exist. Um, it's not as, well, actually, I think it's different. I'm not going to say it's easier or worse. I think it's different. [00:15:00] Now we have access to the wider world. You know, now we can see people who do get stoned for being trans or Takatāwhi or.. Gay or lesbian gender fluid in, in the rest of the world. So, um, so yeah, thank you for sharing that, that whakaro. I always have an interesting, uh, dilemma with Christianity because my whanau is [00:15:30] Ringatu, which is, which is a strand of, um, Christianity. And I was the one who grew up being like.. Who the hell is Rawiri? Who the hell is this person? And why are we praying to them? What happened to Tangaroa? And they'd be like, just read the bloody book. And I'd be like, what's going on? I don't know these people. Is this my uncle or what? And they're like, no. And I'm like, what the hell? So we got this, um, this constant push and pull, but for our whānau.. [00:16:00] Ringatu, Te Haahi Ringatu was the only way that reo could travel through the generations. It was the only place the government allowed reo to exist because it was the only way that Māori would honour their God. And so we, we're constantly pulling between this in terms of, um, Māoritanga. But when it comes to the Christian Bible.. Well, I don't know. I don't think there's a problem with the Bible. I think there's a problem with some of the people, though. Um, I go back to, I think, the [00:16:30] earliest thing I know about is when Bishop Tamaki, I don't know his name, Bishop Brian, Brian? I love that I don't know his name. Um, he did a march against Takatapui people in Auckland, and instead of fighting or rebelling, they just held up these huge mirrors. To face them in protest to be like, look at what you're doing. Like, look at the [00:17:00] hate that you're sharing. Like you are the shameful ones. We're just living our lives in. And, and you're protesting against us. Um, so those are the kinds of things that I connect in terms of your, your korero. So I just want to open it up to the panel, uh, to touch on anything that came to mind for them about what we've just shared. Um, um, I [00:17:30] can speak to that. Um, so just to put it out there, I am a survivor of conversion practices. Um, And I blame myself a lot about that because I'm the one who put myself forward to it because I saw it as a resolution for the dispute I had with my fano and my sexuality and fast forward to now, I had to cut off my relationship with my brother because he just kept tormenting me with just [00:18:00] bible verses and Just conversations, he would just corner me in really unsafe, um, environments and just, just preach this ideology. And my parents and my brother still go to this church and to this pastor who conversion practices on me. And.. So and those exact verses is what they preach at you and be like, I remember this one thing He said that um, you know, like [00:18:30] when a thief resists trying to steal something like that's exactly what you didn't resist with your Urges towards men and I was like what? like and it's it was an interesting time of my life because I just It's gone overseas and I come to myself and I came out and, um, I found an amazing partner and I was just having this conversation and then it was just all came back to me and destroyed and all these nuances in my Catholic school upbringing came up and, and now [00:19:00] it's like I'm starting from scratch again. Um, facilitating that, that new relationship with my brother, my parents, my extended family who don't want anything to do with me. Yeah, sorry, that's my, how I relate, relate to that. Don't ever apologize. Ever, ever. Please. Oh my god. That's gotta be really hard. Um, I'm really privileged in terms of [00:19:30] relationships with my family. But um, yeah. I know of a lot of, like, a lot of my friends who have lost their families, and it really changes everything for them. And it, it becomes this thing where, like, as a, as a part of that community, you end up having to also hold that family responsibility. And, and I'm reflecting on this now, like, I didn't do that very well for my friend.[00:20:00] Who had lost their family or you know, who their family had lost them like because I didn't realize that's what we were doing as chosen families was having to repair that, that, that next level of intimacy that, um, like casual friends or acquaintances just don't have the privilege. To, to have, and yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm really sorry to hear that, and I just can't imagine what it would be like. Ai, [00:20:30] aroha. I just want to talk maybe about, um, yeah, about Te Whanau Whanau as this, um, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's a, um, yeah, this, it's a takatapui kapa haka roopu that, um, also does, um, yeah, it's like a community group, really, and, um, we've been part of, me and my whanau, we've been part of, like, my, my partner and my, And my tamaiti now as well. We've been part of it for the last few years and, [00:21:00] um, and yeah, it's really intergenerational. It's, it's like, um, people, it's only a small, a small group really, but, um, yeah, like, because it's intergenerational, we all, people bring lots of different stories. It's their own, their own stories into, into the space and um, and I think, yeah, that connection across generations, it doesn't have to be looking really far into the distance, like it's, it's right there in front of us, like those, it's not, yeah, [00:21:30] it's like, it's un, it's unbroken. Because, yeah, these people, people, yeah, like people from different generations, we're all here in the same space and yeah, and yeah, so. Yeah, to be able to, um, to be part of that roupu and, um, and also with my art practice as well to be able to bring, um, to, yeah, to do things with, with the, with the group as well that, um, that, yeah, give, give them something and they give me something. It's really, it's really [00:22:00] nice. Just for everybody who doesn't know what Te Whanau Whanau is, um, how would, say, anyone be able to come to the, to the kapa haka group, whānau? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like, um, Oh, I should say as well, um, for the, I'm Kaikōrero, blonde curly one, um, the, um, it's every [00:22:30] Monday night, um, Kevin, Kevin, um, is part of the group as well, and, well, like, one of the leaders of it, and, yeah, you can just come along, it's on, um, Monday at 6. 30 at, um, it's at, it's still at the NZPC, eh, on Willis, Willis Street, um, what's the address? It's 204 Willis Street, yeah, and it's just real nice, we have a, have a kai, and, Um, sing some waiata, and, yeah, it's, everyone's welcome. [00:23:00] Kevin and, um, Elizabeth, kere kere, did you start Tiwhanawhana? Tiwhanawhana started in, from an idea in 2001. Uh, it was at a time when, um, there was a group of people here in Wellington, gay, across the rainbow communities, who were going across to Sydney for the Gay Games in Sydney in 2002. And so part of the [00:23:30] reason for Te Whanau Whanau coming together and it didn't have a name at that time was because we wanted to highlight that Takatapui were part of the wider rainbow community, um, in Wellington. And so there were, we wanted to show That there was, um, you know, diversity, more than just, um, sexual orientation, gender, and so forth. Um, that it was actually cultural, um, [00:24:00] as well. So, that's, that's, that's basically what Te Whanau Whanau, um, does, and has been doing. Um, and there's three things that we try and do, which makes it quite easy for us to, to be a continuous present, is to build community, so things like this. support community, um, a wider community. So looking both outside um, Takatāpui, looking towards Māori, [00:24:30] looking in all directions and providing a platform from which Takatāpui who want to get together, um, can engage. Um, with all these things going on, whether it's political or whether it's just a celebration at social housing, for Matariki, all of those types of things. We have street people will come in, we have people in Ministry of Foreign Affairs and you know, the government departments, they will come in. So there's been.. [00:25:00] Literally hundreds, uh, that have gone through, through Te Whanau Whanau. But the main, the main message, I guess, um, that I wanted to tautoko was around, um, we're actually all here. We are all here and everything is actually right in front of us and part of it. That's just about. about connecting, but also telling our stories. Uh, just to follow up on, um, on [00:25:30] Tiwhanawhana, is that also open to, uh, Tauiwi as well? It is. It is. The, um, Tiwhanawhana runs as best we can, according to us urban Māori here in, in, in Wellington, under our Māori framework. So it's, um, So that's what we always try and encourage and let people know.[00:26:00] The framework is dictated by Māori tikanga. It makes it easy then. Yeah, yeah. Natural. Um, I'm just going to start picking now. Um, because I know, Matt, um, that.. This is going to make me sound fancy. Hold on a minute. Matt has a masters in fine arts and he wrote his thesis, right? Is it a thesis? On [00:26:30] contemporary Māori identities outside of limiting ideas of essentialism. And I feel like a lot of this kōrero can relate to that kaupapa or from what I know about it. So from that perspective, um, can, can you say something? Yeah, so I just finished my masters last year actually. I think for me, my journey with, um, embracing my identity. So [00:27:00] I identify as queer. I know that some people don't like that term, but for me that's something that's felt quite comfortable for me. Um, I used to think of myself as gay, but then I was like, oh, I don't think I'm as gay as I thought I was. So now I'm like queer. big journey and um, it's been really wrapped up in my journey with um, reclaiming my Māoritanga as well. Um, so for me those kind of things really go hand in hand. Um, what I was really interested in with my master's research, um, which I [00:27:30] explored through, um, a lens based photography and video practice, um, was kind of the narratives, the dominant narratives that inform our identities. And how they can be really restrictive, um, and really limiting. And so sometimes if you identify as outside of that, you can feel, um, really displaced. And so my practice was around reclaiming some of those, um, identities, disrupting and displacing others. [00:28:00] And kind of just like really shaking up that space, um, and presenting myself as what might be perceived as a more ambiguous body. But for me, I'm just like, I'm comfortable as in myself and that I change and I shift so frequently. Um, Like, at the moment, I'm kind of like, oh, I, like, in my thesis, I was writing about how, like, some of my key identities are as Maori, queer, and male, and now I'm like, oh, actually, maybe we could [00:28:30] shift the male thing out a little bit, because, still, to me, I'm like, actually, that doesn't sit as well as it did at the time, and so, that's where I end my thesis as well, you know, that people, we're always shifting and evolving, and I think, for Maori, um, we are dynamic, and innovative and ingenuitive, um, and we can trace that through our, um, through our pūrākau. Um, and so I, I was thinking a lot about the trickster archetype as well, the identity of a trickster and how trickster [00:29:00] shapeshifts and they look at boundaries. Sometimes they create boundaries, sometimes they erase them, sometimes they move them and they find a lot of fun in that. And so for me, I find a lot of joy. And being, um, yeah, part of the rainbow community, um, and kind of cementing that within my Māoritanga as well. Um, and I think part of the joy is just, you know, like, [00:29:30] seeing other people, like, really struggling. Um, so like, a lot of times in the past, um, I've been growing my hair out. for this is, I think, year six now. Um, and there's an interesting point in growing my hair out where a lot of people would refer to me as um, ma'am or something from behind. They'd be like, Oh, excuse me, ma'am. I'm like, Oh, must be a real broad shouldered woman. Um, and then I turn around and they'd just be like, Like super, like, oh, I don't understand. And [00:30:00] like get really weird about it. And I was like, that's funny. And so, yeah, I think for me, I really enjoy disrupting and challenging norms that are really pervasive and really essentializing. And then just reminding people that we are so diverse and so dynamic. Kind of going off what you were saying, Kevin, we're really diverse. Um, and we have so much to bring to that, and kind of going off your quote earlier as well, Rangi Moana, is, [00:30:30] um, it's just a shame that people aren't ready to get excited about that, um, because yeah, I think our diversity is what excites me, um, yeah. But there's heaps of people that are excited about it. There are. So that's good, yeah. Actually, yeah, you're right. I think there's more people excited by it. But unfortunately, those ones who aren't are really, really loud. I mean, just, yeah, it's just hard to get them to stop talking so much. Um, yeah. To [00:31:00] relate to your kōrero, I'm gender fluid. So, and also, like, a little bit ambiguous. So oftentimes people will say, Oh, what are your pronouns? And I'm like, he, she, they, ear. And they're like, Oh, but I don't want to get it wrong. And I'm like, you can't get it wrong. Just leave me alone. Like the whole point of why I'm gender fluid is because I don't want to have this conversation with you. I just want to like. Be a human and go about my day and it's just really tricky when you give [00:31:30] people no boundaries. They don't know what to do. They're like, please just, just help me. And I'm like, help yourself. You've got the tools go away. And, and yeah, people navigate it, you know, before, uh, Takata Pui Hui or something. They're like, Oh, she, they, she, they, and then after they're like, there he is. And you're like, Oh, calm down. So like. Um, yeah, social dynamics are really interesting to navigate. It's [00:32:00] that, yeah, I was just relating. Um, I'm aware of time and I want to make sure everybody gets a chance to speak. So I'm just gonna divert away. Okay, I think I'm going to structure this properly. Um, so I do want to hear from, um, you a little bit more, Nekemoa. Um, because you're a Ringatoi, hey, and there are a [00:32:30] few of us that are Ringatoi here, and I don't think anyone's really talked about a perspective coming from a Ringatoi. And, um, yeah, so I just want to read a bit about you. So, um, here it says, Nekemoa employs.. Traditional techniques such as hoanga, which is handheld grinding stones, as well as uses electric machinery and diamond tools, and conceives of her practice as a [00:33:00] spiritual continuation of a whakapapa that extends back to te ao kohatu. Um, and that's beautiful. And, um, yeah, I was just wondering if you could touch, touch a bit about, about that, about your, your, your mahi toi and how it relates to, um, your identity. [00:33:30] Um, we were talking about that on the way up, like Moka, because, you know, going from Ōtaki, up to down, up, around, to here, is an hour, sitting there. So, um, I thought I'd talk a little bit about, um, what I'm doing at the moment. Because otherwise, all the lead up into that will just take over, because I'm old. I'm middle aged now. But, um, so I'm, um, work with, um, [00:34:00] contemporary jewellery, adornment, objects is kind of my area. And, uh, I say mahi a ringa, mahi a wairua. And I work with, do a lot of collaborating with, um, I say materials. Um, I gather materials from Ōtaki Beach, from, um, from all around the place. Kohatu shells, you see a piece here, I work with fibre, muka mainly, um, whatever [00:34:30] else comes along. And then, through that, also is collaborating with my partner here, Paula, um, who is a tōhunga from Taranaki. And we collaborate on, recently, for the last couple of years. So we're bringing out a lot of atua stories, and these atua stories are kind of really informing my work in many ways, and it's maybe it's during the process of making, or it's after it's finished, and then we're always talking about, you know, um, [00:35:00] what's happening in the world, what's currency, what's going on in the taiao. You know, because really connecting on that level, um, is not just, you know, it's hauora stuff. It's um, really grounding for me as an artist, because now I'm a full time kaitoi. I've taken a, all those little part time jobs, those bread and butter lines. I've decided just to go hard out with just making what I need to make and just following that kaupapa. So, in that way, [00:35:30] um, I'm being authentic and being pono. And tika to that path is really, um, bringing out the mahi and bringing out a lot of these, um, atua stories. And Paula has a background, um, that allows for that connection, that hononga with atua, to bring these stories forth and to, um, And really to go, to start moving towards these lesser known atua, you know, cause we all sort of go for the top ten a lot.[00:36:00] That's fine, cause that's what we know, cause that's what's written, right? That's one of our stories, and a lot of stories that are shared are from the missionary times, and purākaua, and there's.. So many, um, ways of how we used to interpret our stories through, uh, whakaurau, through the weaving. And these stories and these ways of us relating, it's kind of been a bit lost. And our tohunga haven't been able to really, um, bring some of these stories to light. But now I see.. This is coming. There's a [00:36:30] real uprising in indigenous knowledge and the sharing is becoming more easily and readily available. And through toy, uh, through art, we can really, and creativity in all forms, uh, we can relate on so many more levels. And that's through performance based stuff, that's through.. Um, what I do, Object, um, through photography, through everything, you know? Just showing in that way, I feel, um, that our [00:37:00] creativity is really connecting us to each other and to the atua. So, um, we brought along, we brought along a few pieces today from, cause we, I was at Nelson Jewellery Week. Couple of months ago, and we were part of the very first queer jewellers show, which is really awesome. Yeah, queer jewellery show And it was called Licky And um, so there was like, how many of us? There was like seven of us to start with and it's just gonna be something that We're all gonna [00:37:30] do now. We're just gonna sort of thought well We haven't had a queer show and so there's quite a few queer jewellers from Australia, a couple from Australia Quite a few from here, and so that was our first showing And I thought, oh, okay, this is a good kaupapa, I want to do something new, and sort of, um, think about how we can relate, you know, what I can do. And then I just started making a few, um, pieces. Uh, the first piece that I made was called, um, Ko ia. And, you know, it's really just relating to, um, gender, [00:38:00] pronouns, and English. Like, English sucks, you know. Just everyone speak Māori, and then you've got three choices, right? Problem solved. Ko hau, ko koe, ko ia, you know? You're no problem. So I made a sort of a piece to go with that, and I thought, oh yeah, let's do that one. And then, um, these two sort of came up. So this is, um, uh, Ko taku aroha noa, the greatest love of all. And it kind of, um, and it's looking at Hina, [00:38:30] Hina and Rona's story. And really, um, we had done Rona and Hina's story in a previous, uh, Exhibition and I thought I just really wanted to bring that to light again within the queer context. Um, because, um, in the story that kind of evolved with us, it was Hina was, came to Rona as a woman. Because she had to come to Rona as a woman. Because of who Rona was. Um, Rona was a slave. She was, um, had been taken by an [00:39:00] iwi and she was treated terribly. Inhumanely and was stripped of her mana. And she karakia'd to the atua, she karakia'd, she karakia'd, and Hina saw that karakia and thought well what an amazing karakia that she had put forth, and how amazing she was there, even though she was stripped bare, she stood in her power. And so, um, and then they fell in love, and then um, as you all know, well, ah. Other pūrākau say they lived in the midst of [00:39:30] somewhere, but for them, wherever it was they lived, they were home, because they were together. So that was another story I really wanted to highlight within this, our stories that we kind of know of, but that this one is really related to us as Takatāpui. But also Hina and the Atua are genderless. Atua are genderless, you know, they choose. When it's time, maybe I want to do that with.. It's not about, um, gender. They usually have [00:40:00] a kaupapa of some kind that is way above gender. Gender is very much a human thing. But if we look to our atua, you know, the Bible, never mind, that doesn't include us really. We don't, you know, and I think our Maori stories, because we are here, they are really really important and valuable for all of us. And those stories really have a lot of, um, They've done it. They've been there. Those Atua? They've already done it. They've been there. They're showcasing it to you. [00:40:30] They say, listen, I've done that. I've been there. Listen to me. Here's the story for you. Here's the Atua for you. And so I think you can talk about.. And then just this one piece that she's wearing here at the moment. called Hine Mau Ahua was the other piece that I had made. Can I just talk to her? Um, Mau Ahua is important, but more important now than probably before. So the separation of the parents that we've heard of, Tuanuku [00:41:00] and Ranginui, Mau Ahua is one of the older ones. So already settled, already hanging out. I don't need you to tell me what to do but I'm going to take a bit of time to figure out who I am, who am I, what am I good at. Turns out Moahua was good at that. Who am I, what is my truth, what is your truth, what is your truth, do you need help to see who you are? Which means that for other asoa, no, not so [00:41:30] popular because it's a bit challenging really to have something to go, Hey, here you are. In this context, as we're talking right now, here you are. And lots of people in history, we haven't had a world. That's okay. So, I also am old. Not as old. I also am old. I belong to a generation where, like, here's some [00:42:00] deep internal thinking I need to do. Quick, get me a mat, uh, mat and a broom, cause that's where that lives. So, I didn't have a lot of time for mo'ahua. And I was thinking, mo'ahua is someone that can show you your true self. And it could be scary, or it could be really relieving and amazing and freeing. But mo'ahua would not be an atua if that was the only [00:42:30] job mo'ahua did. Mo'ahua also challenges the person beside you. Because it wouldn't be fair for an usher to go, Here is your true self. See ya. Have fun. In your whanau context, here is this person's true self. Every single one of us here. Let's work that out for you. And then the challenge is for the person beside you to figure out how to accept that. And [00:43:00] that's why Mo'ahua is so important because it's easy for, after I've been on my journey to figure out where I am today, I can get focused on that. And sometimes I might forget how am I going to support you on your journey today. So, and moʻahua is really reflective, so that can be fun, it can be painful, and it can be confusing, or it's just a challenge, [00:43:30] it's a challenge, um, that's who moʻahua is, but with my bubble gum, I could talk about this and bore you for so long, but I, um, I'm probably the oldest person here because I'm in my mid 70s, but so I'm talking about when I was 16 or [00:44:00] 17. And that is we're talking about the early sixties and when I was doing these things, I had to learn that if people actually challenged me, I had to use their own weapons to challenge them. That's what I'm talking about. Um, it's And coming that if you were where I was from, it was [00:44:30] Anglicanism, Anglicanism, Anglicanism. And they used to tell us that we had to be Christian first and Maori second. Today, I am Māori, well I'm Ngāti Porou first, but I am Māori second, if you like. But, those things, and I agree with what everyone is saying, because there is change, and but, I still have to keep challenging those who will challenge Us as a people, and that's what I'm [00:45:00] saying. I certainly have a look at all these things, and I've learned something tonight about the Atua, which I hadn't thought about before, and so those things are important to me, but I will continue challenging people with their own, with their own tayahar, if you like, because.. I won't rest on it. People keep saying to me, Oh, Māori, it's just about land. It's just about reo. I said, no. We're into [00:45:30] women's rights. We are there to family. We come from families. We are there to be with other people who have Difficulties because the main, um, our people, our, our, our, our governments and that. Nothing has ever been given to us as Maori. We have fought all the way. And I get this thing about people saying, in the 60s, you got special housing. And I went, no, [00:46:00] you had it in the 30s, 40s. 50s and 60s and onwards, and Maori housing in that time, all Maori housing had to be one third the size less of other people because they were frightened that we would bring in our old people. That's where a lot of the language has gone. I am lucky because I was brought up for the first three years amongst people who couldn't speak English. I'm not [00:46:30] saying, I'm not defending myself on this. I'm saying I will fight people with the taiaha that they use against me. Kia ora tatou. And I think, like, it's interesting because as a ringatoi, you kind of do the same. You do the same thing with toi. You challenge those constructs. Well, at least I did anyway. I went to university and then when I got out I was [00:47:00] like, what is this? the structure that I challenge now. Um, so yeah, I think it is the smartest thing to do really, because they can't fight themselves. Well, you know, Moahua isn't there to tell them this is what you look like. And so when we go back to them with the same weapons, then That's what we do. So maybe there's a bit of mau ahua in all of us. And I also want to [00:47:30] acknowledge both of your kōrero. Like, I learnt, I learnt a lot and I want to sit here and ask you fellas a million questions about that kaupapa. And especially about the first, um, queer jewellery exhibition. Heaps of questions there as well, and I just hope we get another opportunity to, to revisit those korero too. We're a bit tight on time, but I'm just going to try and push my luck [00:48:00] because I'm the convener. So I've got a few questions as well. So, like, Louis, you're also a Ringo Toi, and in your practice, um, you look at the relationship between, or I should say, like, you work around, uh, developing A sense of identity in your practice with your whakapapa and your takatapuitanga, is that right? I just read this two minutes ago. [00:48:30] Um, can you speak a little bit more to that? Because I'm really interested to see where the lines connect between all of our kaupapa and they connect in my brain, but my gum is just running out of taste and I can't seem to do it. But um, yeah, I would love to hear about how, how your practice is also. Relative to your Māoritanga and your Takatāpuitanga. Yeah, yeah, well like what I relate to, um, that like through, through making my [00:49:00] art, I've, um, I've been able to, I'm, yeah, which hasn't happened for many generations now, but we, yeah, in my whānau at least, yeah, and, um, yeah, so the, I started out with making, um, te kouka, it was in the lockdown, um, in the first lockdowns, I was like making art for uni projects and, um, And I found tea coca lying on the ground everywhere and, um, It's [00:49:30] like cabbage tree leaves, and so I, um, I learned how to make taura, make ropes from it, and, um, I can pass this round if you want to have a hold. But, um, yeah, that, that was a way to, um, it was, I think, the COVID lockdowns made everyone quite, like, introspective as well, because it was so.. Yeah, so it was quite confronting to be alone at home for so long, and, um, and so, yeah, so, my, um, some of my, my kaiako at, [00:50:00] um, at uni, they encouraged me to, um, to learn more about my whakapapa, and, um, to, yeah, to, um, to embrace this, this tikoka, um, because our, our tupuna would have used this for a lot of different things, it's, like, really strong, and, um, It doesn't break down in seawater, so you can use it for making nets and, um, and, um, fishing lines and things like that. Um, and, yeah, I think, I [00:50:30] think the, when I, when I make, I make, like, body adornment things as well, like, and, well, in, I don't know, in some ways it's similar to neck hair, but, um, but those, those become performances, like, um, I, I, like, make something I can wear and then I perform in it. I think performance is a really cool, um, a really cool place to be able to, um, like push, push yourself to, um, do whatever you really want to be doing. And it's kind of like [00:51:00] creating, creating like a, your dreams into real life. And it's like really happening as well. It's, um, it's like every, and everyone's experiencing it with you. And so, um, that's, um, yeah, it's really, it's. That's been a really, um, important way for me to, um, to be able to figure out what I, what I really want to be doing, and it is such a privilege as well because to have that space and time to be able to do that, like, that, yeah, I think everyone would benefit from that, but we're all, we're all, we [00:51:30] all have to work jobs as well, and like, yeah, so I feel really lucky. And, so I think, uh, we've heard a lot about, you know, this being a Takatāpui hui, we've heard a lot about how Our identity is connected to our Māoritanga and, um, I just want to acknowledge Sean here who, [00:52:00] who, um, is, is from Sri Lanka and, um, I'm also a little bit nosy, you know, after hearing the, the kind of conversations here, Um, I also want to get your perspective on how, um, how what you do is relative to, to your culture or to your, whanau, perhaps?[00:52:30] Am I being too nosy? No, no, no. Okay, thank you. Nose away. Um, so my mahi, that pays my rent, um, I am a, um, equity consultant for a place called PwC. An equity, not like private equity, but like inclusion, diversity. Um, that sort of copapa, um, but if a background to that though, I, my bachelor's degree is in architecture and spatial design and clearly I'm not [00:53:00] practicing anymore because I had this realization towards the end of my bachelor's degree and also coming out that there are enough designers out there making beautiful spaces for the ultra privileged. I don't need to be adding to that anymore. And I started exploring that identity and then my master's degree, I pivoted completely added a design degree in exhibition design, particularly exploring and decolonizing the idea of storytelling and how [00:53:30] we convey narratives that is not in a museum. Um, and then I graduated into covert. Um, and it was a very isolating time. I guess it was for all of us. And, um, I was confronted by a lot of stuff that I had been putting off for a while. And because I was alone in my room for. Eight hours a day. 'cause I just had a job that couldn't be done online. Um, and it was also during the, the, the b l M movement and I started doing my research. I was like, oh my, what is this [00:54:00] advocacy thing? I was like, I didn't. And then fast forward to today, um, I found fire in, um, having this challenging conversations with, through, through a corporate lens. I know, I know capitalism, but, um, I'm in there. I'm, I'm trying to flip the table. Okay. . Um, And what led to, um, me being here is that I did some work alongside the artist Shannon Novak, um, who, um, has been in deep with the [00:54:30] Make Visible project. And, actually, the collaboration itself came out of chance, because I just started at PWC, I had no idea what I was doing. And I kind of asked the people, like, hey, like, what are some, um, queer networks I can join? It's a very sterile environment. Um, and they're like, oh, we just had, this is a guy called Sharon Novak, he's interested in, he used to work for PwC, and he wants to do something. I was like, oh yeah, I can have a conversation. They wanted something for pride month for one week. I was like, I'm here [00:55:00] every day. I'm not just here for the week. Um, you use my intellectual property to make billions of dollars. Um, I need to be recognized every day. And so through months of conversation of that with Shannon and me sharing my story from my Sri Lankan culture and also my Faka Papa to Europe. Um. Came this piece of art called the blossoming some of you might have seen it It's a well the brief was we want some [00:55:30] rainbows on a piece of on a glass. I was like Let's not do that so we took the rainbow the beautiful colors that presents and so in Sri Lanka the national flower is the lotus flower and for those who don't know Depending on the soil and the area of the country it grows in, it grows in different hues. And, uh, so there's blues, purples, pinks, uh, white is very common as well. [00:56:00] And I really love the metaphor for that because it can also grow from mud, it has to grow in mud, and as it comes out of water, it comes out so beautiful and clean and pure, and I thought that was a really similar metaphor for what, uh, BIPOC people go through quite often, um, now, and we come out beautiful even through, we go through all this shit we go through, and so, if you look it up, it's an art piece that's got all these Rainbow colors, not in the [00:56:30] order that we normally know. And the lotus flowers through it as well, where each petal is a different color. So, that's really long. I hope that answers the question. No. No? Sorry, sorry. That was fantastic. Yeah. I got some flavor in my gum again. Oh, I'm glad. No, that was very great and very gay and I just feel a lot more femur. Where can we look it up? You just said [00:57:00] look it up. Um, it's on the WCC website. It's called The Blossoming. And because it was successful, and the Amazing Tori final was commented on it. Now all the offices across the country has, um, this art in different iterations. Yeah, yeah. And it's really awesome because PwC China and Australia have picked up on it and they want to have conversations. I was like, oh, pay me better and I'll talk to you. So did that, um, Shannon lead to your role being [00:57:30] created? The diversity? Um, yeah, kind of. Not created. It, I, it. It helped me chisel my way through PwC, which is a very, again, sterile environment, and now I am an equity consultant and I'm, I've started this mahi within advisory for queer rights and currently, because of that, that opportunity actually, and through Adhika Aotearoa, which I'm a trustee of, uh, I work at the Human Rights Commission at the moment using my lived experience as a conversion [00:58:00] practice survivor, advising the conversion practices response team. I'm creating resources that acknowledge the murky past and to have those really difficult conversations with faith groups and schools and just anyone who just wants to learn about it and also challenge the law as well because it doesn't cover a lot. It's very high level. Um, see that's how, yeah, that was amazing. [00:58:30] It's got the snowball rolling down the hill. It's still rolling though. I need to stop it for a bit. Hence the two pieces of gum in my mouth, always. Wow, thank you. Thank you for sharing. That's fantastic. I have heaps of things to ask you, but we don't have enough time. Um, so maybe you've got to come back next time. Maybe. Um, just the last piece, because I want to make sure everyone gets it. Um, we've heard about Te Whanau Whanau. Um, we're from the same place. So, [00:59:00] but you grew up in Murupara where some of my whanau grew up as well. What I want to talk to you about is what could potentially lead into how we talk about today. And this is specifically around community building. Um, We've had some pretty challenging past conversations and some, uh, talks about individual, how people are dealing with Takatapuitanga [00:59:30] in their own individual way, um, and now we want to get to, like, what, what, what are some of the things that we The things that, that we can all implement, in terms of taking from your, your experience with community building, to building our own community, or our own kaupapa, moving on from today. Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah. But, what I would like to.. To talk about, this [01:00:00] is a really good way of saying, well, I'll talk about some of the things that I don't mind. I don't mind. So, one of the things I was thinking about in terms of today was what was connection in terms of the arts. And so, if I reflect on, um, Tiwhanawhana, um, it provided a platform for waiata. And so we started to develop our own waiata. So even back in the day of the Destiny Church. As a response to that March was composed [01:00:30] and I composed that one called , and part of that was a reflection. And on back to, uh, our Maori, because the face of the church was very much Maori, um, was that, uh, as , we, we occupied all parts of our, wherever we were within our Maori settings, whether we were. Whether we were [01:01:00] kaikaranga, whether we were kaikōrero, whether we were in the kitchen, whether we were carers, all of those things, I wanted to reflect it back. Um, so it's through waiata that has provided a mechanism to reflect and also to challenge. You know, even down to, at the moment, waiata has been created for Georgina. Um, and the reason why is.. to [01:01:30] acknowledge Georgina, but you don't hear many waiata about whakawahine. So, you know, it's about putting these things out there. Um, so the things that I'm, I'm really, uh, quite focused on at the moment is around the use of our reo, uh, and the use of, uh, and the whakapapa that goes with the reo. to talk about ourselves. Um, so I'm quite protective of, [01:02:00] of ensuring that we understand our own distinction between how other ways of culturally looking at what might be called LGBTI, tēmea, tēmea, tēmea, um, is not necessarily, or it isn't the same from a Māori perspective. So my My interest is, is around, um, what is our deal? What is our, what are the words that [01:02:30] we, we could be using to describe ourselves? I mean, we, we describe ourselves as AKA Tap, and there's a of how that came to be, but uh, now everyone's calling themselves pu is that what was intended? Or should we have another word? You know, those sort of things to, to think about. I've, um, So that's really what I wanted to say in connection, in terms of the art, the kupu. Waiata is [01:03:00] one way of being able to, to express, express something. Um, I really love the story about Mau Ahua, I think, for myself I must have found out about, about Mau Ahua in terms of my own reflection very, very young. And then I became Ahua, Huna, you know, and then, but all of that chip trade thing that occurred. Because of, of, um, the society that we, uh, I was brought up in. Brought up in, [01:03:30] I'm, I'm involved with quite a few things at the moment, and one of the things that I was looking at today, um, was with Louis Wall. Louisa was over at the Indigenous Forum in Geneva about, and she's asking me, you know, I'm going to have this L G B T QA plus plus plus, um, opening, uh, with these other people and, and, and what she was focusing on was the, um, doctrine of discovery and so mm-hmm. . [01:04:00] Some people might know about this, but I won't go into what, what it is, except to say that it has had a huge impact on colonization and the way that we are today. So those things are still there. And so I, I You know, people who are able to challenge things in the way that they, uh, use their skills to challenge those things. But, also, I'm thinking [01:04:30] we need to be thinking beyond all of this. You know, go back to our mountains, as they say, and, and, and, and, and create the world that, um, probably was always there before. And I'm not just saying that we were perfect before as Maori, because we weren't. We're like the gods, the atua, so, um, but, you know, to, to keep striving, um, towards, [01:05:00] towards that. I hope next year, um, and possibly October or November next year, there will be a national Takata Pui Hui, and I would love to see kui art, and also the kōrero that comes with that, at that particular forum. And many other things that could be, um, talked about, not necessarily at that one forum alone, but in the year leading up to it, to be able to have Waimana like this. So that, you [01:05:30] know, we can capture these things and share amongst our family. Kia ora. That was way better than my question anyway. Aroha mai, I didn't realize, um, you composed that waiata. That's awesome. Um, kua mutu tātou. Um, ai, so if anyone has any closing remarks, um, before I hand it over, I just want to say thank you everybody for [01:06:00] coming. Um, please stay in touch with everyone here. Uh, come back to the next Hui, where I'm sure we will have more Wananga than, um, or extra Wananga. Uh, yeah, it's, it's been really awesome. Thank you for having me. Um, I've really enjoyed being nosy. Um, aye. Now, karakia is a chant. [01:06:30] You keep your eyes open. You don't have to close them. Okay.[01:07:00] [01:07:30] [01:08:00] No.[01:08:30] .
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