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So will be, um I have encountered you a number of times in the past. And when I say that when I've been doing preservation work, I've encountered some of your work and some of the things you've said. And, um, I thought it would be a really good opportunity to come and talk to you about some of those things. And also what you what you're doing now, Um, the first time I encountered you was when I was preserving material about the homosexual law reform. And I think you stood up in a meeting on the North Shore and, um, and and spoke. Can you recall [00:00:30] that meeting? Yeah, it was It was at the at the in the middle towards the end of a fairly fraught time. Um, and it had been called by the AAA Church organisation, but it was called a public meeting, and by that stage, we'd got ourselves reasonably organised in Auckland. So we we, um we were rather than having the those organisations coming and disrupting our meetings, we were going to their meetings, so we were putting ourselves inside their spaces. [00:01:00] Um, and when we, uh, just before I left to turn up. A friend rang and said, Um, they're not letting the queers in. And I said, Well, how do they know? You know, how do they know who's queer? And they said, Well, you know, you you know, you you need to get in because there were a group of us who were potential speakers. But I think, um, Peter Wells, we had one guy who was who was to be the speaker. We thought, but there were two or three others. We always did this of having backups so that if anything went wrong, you know, we weren't left stranded [00:01:30] anyway. So I I phoned a friend of mine who had two sons, and I said, Can you be my wife? For this time? We're going into the into the mouths of the new right. So I grabbed the only Bible in the house and we leapt into the car, told the kids to shut up, and we got there and there There was this channel leading down and there were all these all these queer women and queer men who must have got, you know, sorted out and said, No, you're not coming in. So they were standing there and we were walking down going Oh, for God's sake, don't look at me and say good day, Welby. We get down there and there's this big, [00:02:00] big South African guy and, um, Afrikaans guy. And he said, um, uh, he kind of looked at us suspiciously, and I and I thought, Oh, fuck, we're not going to get in. And he said, um, who invited you? And I said our pastor did buying for my teeth, and, uh and he said, uh um, who's your pastor? So I made up a name and I thought, Fuck, this isn't gonna go too well. Somebody's gonna say, Get a or something So I said to him, Look, we got two sons and a wife and I do not want to be standing out here in amongst [00:02:30] these people and I thought, God, heaven's sake, let us in now, Come on, let us in. This isn't fair. My kids should not be subjected to this. So anyway, the guy let us in. We got in and the thing erupted because about at least half of the people in there were queer, you know? Yeah. And he was so pissed off you could see him at the door going because it must have happened. There must have been a few got in and a few hadn't. Anyway, All the all the queers stayed outside the meeting and they were making a lot of noise, and, uh, they started it. And there were no queer speakers. And so we asked if we could have equal [00:03:00] representation because it was a public meeting and the police were there by that stage because they'd been sufficient disruption up to that time, especially in those weeks leading up to that, um, the, um incident outside the Salvation Army when the flag was lowered to half mast a whole lot of little things like this. So it was seen as disturbing the peace. Um and, um, anyway, a speaker got up, and, um, he was booed by the crowd. And, um [00:03:30] and we realised that this wasn't going. We we we had the strategy when we went into a meeting of not sitting in one group of always putting yourself well round. And so it sounded like you were the full crowd, even though you were a minority. And we also had a strategy of when you were speaking. Identify two or three people in the family from up there and keep talking to them. So you look as if you're talking to the whole crowd and the whole crowd. And of course, within the crowd, these people are doing the nod and and you're going Oh, yeah, that's right. So it was a way of kind of affirming what you were doing because it it was a shit atmosphere. [00:04:00] It was a shit place to be, Um because the the, um you weren't just unwelcome. You were. You knew you were seen as as an aberration. And, um, and my my partner, he he didn't he didn't want to be part of it. And I, I totally understood so and he said to me before I leave, for God's sake, don't get yourself on TV or anything he was. He held the national title in the triple jump at that stage, and he was he was out. But of course he didn't want his career damaged. And he [00:04:30] was he was a good man. He was a good man. But, you know, you realised as you were going through that, that other people were also paying the cost for you, for you being out. But anyway, our speaker, the poor bastard he started and then it just turned to shit and everyone was yelling and he started screaming back and they just got up and removed him off the stage. And so the crowd just started stamping their feet on the ground and insisting, insisting And they said, All right, assuming we didn't have another speaker, you can have another speaker. And we had a a lovely older [00:05:00] woman. She was a grandmother, and she looked like everybody's sort of Auntie Minnie. And she was a very good speaker. She she wasn't queer, but I think she had a queer grandson. But she said, you know, we thought, Well, she would be good because she would, you know, break the the preconception. But she said, Oh, no, no, It was a bit hostile, so I thought, Oh, fuck, I'd better But I was out by that stage. But, you know, that was at that time before the law reform was through, there were two big issues. One you were criminalised. So you could, [00:05:30] you know, not to be gay. But if you were practising gay you know, it's a fine line, but the big issue was that you could be fired from your job because there were no human rights protections. So you could lose your job. You could lose access to accommodation and you could lose. Um, you didn't have to be given goods and services, and that was what the real anxiety was. And, um, and I I was teaching at a school at that stage. They knew I was out and they knew I was politically involved. I don't think they quite knew what was going to happen. But anyway, the, um I got up and I and, [00:06:00] uh um what was his name? Jeff Bray. Brook. Jeff Bray Brook. He's a guy with about 18 chins and sorry if he's alive. But you did have 18 chins. And anyway, I I walked across the stage and went to shake his hand, and he just pulled his hand away. And I thought, Fuck this and, uh and of course, the audience just started roaring. Well, the audience didn't. The family in the audience started roaring, but it sounded like the audience anyway. So when I got to stand up II, I kept I didn't have anything prepared to say. I just thought, But you realised that it was a really important thing because [00:06:30] not only for the people outside, because they could hear. But the people inside had taken a big risk. They'd come to the heart of the same world that wanted them criminalised, and it was a really difficult. It was a really difficult situation. So I thought, I'll talk about being a teacher. And so I introduced it by saying, I'm from the time I was 12, I was a criminal And then I said, I'm a teacher. Television was there and they brought broadcast it. So the next day, when I got back to school, there was people marching outside the school. Um, this was at the time of the petition, was in full [00:07:00] swing, and my my wood I was teaching woodwork my woodwork class eyes like sorted because they'd all seen it on TV. And I said to them, Look, you know, you know, I'm gay, and you know I exercise my right to speak. I'm not saying that you have to hold the same views, but I would defend your right to speak and they said. Oh, you know, all these people outside of the petition will go out and deal to them and I said, No, that's them exercising their right to speak And they said, Oh, it's not fair It's not right These were These were big Tongan kids who'd come over to do woodwork at that [00:07:30] that school. And, um Um, but of course, the church was very staunch. I mean, if we think it's staunch now, it's nothing what it was like in the early eighties, and, um and they were being quite torn because they had a you know, they had a teacher, who they Well, we got on really well, you know, and and, um But they also had a pastor who was saying the opposite, and the two things weren't marrying up and they were having a lot of trouble. Um, because they understood the concept of, But they didn't understand the concept of, you know, a gay man teacher who's teaching them how to use the wood [00:08:00] lathe and how to do housing joints. And they didn't match up, and they they saw my partner, and they he didn't match up either. So anyway, the, um the the women from the office went out and they were, Well, they could become harpies when necessary. And I think they moved. They moved the protesters on, but, um, but that was, um, that that was that incident. But really, I took that position of of, uh, saying, you know, saying when I was 12, I was a criminal to show them what they were doing to kids [00:08:30] and then to say I was a teacher because I knew that would get to them. But it was also the core of the fact that we are everywhere. We're not in their eyes, you know, We were decadent florists, and, you know, we permeate to the same society that they do. So that's probably what that incident was. What age were you when you were doing that? Probably late twenties. Might have been Should, um, come up from late twenties, early thirties. Had you ever been involved in in a thing like that [00:09:00] before? Yeah, in the early days, um, we used to The police used to have a habit if you there was a club called the Aquarius Club and they used to have a habit of if you were walking home with a guy they would pull over and stop you and that their standard line was You meet the description of there's been a burglary you meet a description of Of that was the standard thing. But it was just a hassle. But I used to always walk hand in hand with my partners. And if I if I met somebody and we were going home, if I went to hold their hand and they didn't, then it was off. [00:09:30] I was that I didn't want to know. And, um So, um, Ian and I were walking home and, um, and we stopped and and there was actually there were training things. So there's a lot of stuff, isn't that well known, But at the conferences, there used to be workshops on how to handle yourself with the police. So you knew you had to give your name and address, but you didn't have to give anything more. And then you just kept saying, Am I being arrested? Am I being arrested? And so we were taught to use the correct record technique and never, ever to get flustered. And of course, [00:10:00] they weren't that used to it to have somebody respond to them very calmly. But keep saying Am I being arrested? And if they say yes, you say, Could I could I have your number, please? You know, and so they knew they got introduced to the fact that there were people who we we weren't. Uh I think the police's attitude to gay men had been formed from the bogs, which was, uh, that was one dimension. That was one of the worlds we had to live in. But it wasn't, um, of course, [00:10:30] it was only a very thin way for thin part of the society, so they didn't expect to be spoken to as equals. They expected us to be afraid. And we had every right to be afraid, because although you could be put into prison for seven years at that stage, very few people did the seven years. If anything, it was three months. But at the end of three months, you came out. You lost your job, you'd lost your rent. You know, you hit your house and the goods and your name was corrupted. So that's what the real feel. So although we were talking about the law reform that truly, I think for many men, [00:11:00] the real issue was not the decriminalisation. It was the human rights amendment that came later. And we'd, you know, we'd fought during the freer. And what was the one by, uh uh, Warren free. And there was another bill next to it before the wild one. Um, and both we we had stopped those going through because they wouldn't give equity. They were sort of going, Oh, at 21. Maybe you can you know, you can have equity, or you can have, uh, decriminalisation so we'd held out. But of course it was at a cost. Because you still [00:11:30] I mean, I had I. I mean, first time I went to Mount Eden to visit someone. I was 23 and it shocked me. You know that, Um, this is where this is when I first got a sense of my people. Isn't it strange? I mean, today it sounds like an anachronism that we talk about gays as being people in this post gay environment. But in fact, the the the necessity of it was if you didn't see yourself as a people, then you became quite vulnerable. You had [00:12:00] to have something to hold on to. And I think that's why the words gone from today. But that's why we used to talk about things like family and within family as constructive aunties and mothers and sisters. And and those words still flicker a little bit around today. But I don't think many people understand what that really was. That was a community of people often who had lost the right to their biological family through coming out or access to. And so they formed alternative families, and they look after each other. And certainly all the stuff I learned about how to handle [00:12:30] yourself with the police came from there came from there, you know? So, um, and you learn very quickly walking hand in hand. Was that in Auckland? Yep. Where did that kind of staunchness come from? From anger. Anger? Fuck, um, I I grew up in It was a little farming district, a great family, great family. And in fact, it's funny that later on, my twin sister came out and so did my next sister come out. So half of the family actually were queer. But the time when I was dragged out for being caught feeling [00:13:00] up a fellow fifth form in the back of the German class. It was not a good time. It was not a good time. And and, um um and I learned I learned through my last years of secondary school and probably through my teachers college years because I didn't have access to anything more. I learned that I had to be some kind of social aberration, even though, but I'd never fallen in love. And I know this sounds a bit soppy, but it was when that happened that I realised this was all crap, [00:13:30] and and then I was angry. I was very angry before the days of being politically angry. I was fucked off, and I just thought, This is crap. This is crap. And, um And so that's where it came from. And so I was the art director for, um, New Zealand Gay News. And, uh, the flat I was living in, which was, I think, 27 Collingwood Street. That was where we did the, um produced it out of there. David Russell was the editor, and the house was basically made up of people who either worked on New Zealand gay news [00:14:00] or fed the people who worked on New Zealand gay news. But it was, I mean, we had a secret mailing list for that. It was we had to be very careful. We had to be really careful. We had offices at the bottom of Queen Street upstairs. Um, and I always remember they just smelled a bull gum from post up a thing they use for posting up and and the and the, um, a publisher that used to publish it. There's this really strange thing Wanganui Newspapers published, I think crack the feminist newspapers, they all a strange little thing down in Wanganui was [00:14:30] where if you needed anything dicey published, they would do it. So, um, it was, uh it was and and there was I mean, of course, there was a lot of tension there at that time between as as we're trying to work out AAA, if you like a public gay identity because prior to that all identity because it hadn't been disseminated, all identity was kind of in in a closed area. But suddenly you're in the public domain in print, and there were issues of what's the impact of sexism on the way we talk about ourselves. Ageism. [00:15:00] Well, there's a lot of ISMs floating around. You know, The early magazine had quite a socialist leaning, but that's because we had so much trouble generating any New Zealand copy that we had to kind of grab it off from overseas. And then those things coming in from overseas had to be smuggled into the country because Customs was really tough and they would stop them coming in. What kind of year was this? Nine. Late into the 19 seventies. Um, I'd have to go back through early issues of New Zealand gay news, but I left when New Zealand Gay News turned into out magazine. So, [00:15:30] um, it was cited covers for them for about? Well, only about I think it was about a year and a half might have been, but, um, but that was, you know, like one of the stories about you know that that we often put out there is that stone wall was kind of started the movement and and then it was driven out of the new universities in New Zealand. That is crap. It's much, much older than that. It grew up. I believe? Well, my experience was it grew up through families and they were often in small towns or small communities and there was identity there. And there were names [00:16:00] like they had. Don't know if I really if this is gonna go on the website. I did not say the names, but they were particularly savage, but there were code names for people that they were. This was the stage when it was coming out of the stage when gay men were divided into what was called butch and bitch and that never sat well with me. And so I came into that world that was just beginning to close. And, um I, I think, as as sensibility as as as we got more access to information, we realised you didn't have to be in those roles. But that's kind of roles [00:16:30] the families were in. And I think that's why families use things like they had words for mother um Auntie Sister, But not for Father. Uncle. The only other term they had was it. I had it or that thing. So it it it it within the family. Although it was protective, it was also self denigrating in a way. If you look at its language, it was self denigrating. So, um, so And And but the interesting thing is, you see, that wasn't the universities. This was more working class, and it never got documented [00:17:00] as well. Universities are very good at documenting their own stories. So if we look at the trajectory of of, of law reform and gay rights in New Zealand, it tends to be told through the through the writing of the articulate and they see themselves in it. Whereas I think your old histories will probably uncover something else, which is older than that. That's why I like Chris Brick's, um, book because it went back and it started getting some of that other stuff. And so we can see flickers of it way, Way before, and it quite defiant gay men. So what, then do you think the Stonewall? [00:17:30] What kind of impact did it have on New Zealand? Fuck all, Really. Um, it was a it became part of a an accepted narrative. It it became evidence or part of a written about narrative. And so you got a sense that you were something more than the narratives that were supplied for you by Dick Em by television characters because there were the only other narratives were these, you know, if you could smuggle them into this country, these very dark novels where the gay guy always died at the end anyway. So he [00:18:00] was a historical narrative that didn't frame you as abject. It didn't frame you as as dysfunctional and so I. I guess we we we we we we ate it up quickly because it was something that framed us as something strong and, um, self actualized. But it was foreign. It was an American thing from an American context. And it didn't actually it It's like the British often think that the WOLFENDEN report had huge impact on New Zealand had fuck all influence on New Zealand. [00:18:30] Fuck all you know, in truth, what had influence in New Zealand was this growing, slowly percolating stuff that came up through the forties fifties sixties seventies of of stroppy people, certainly the most stroppy political people that I remember as a kid with the drag queens. They were really they were really struck. They had mouths like septic tanks, and they they would take on anybody and and the the interesting thing was to see, as the gay rights thing rose up, [00:19:00] they became marginalised and so did their language, and so did their culture because they were not palatable to the overground that we were trying to get to give us equal rights. And so the the the flagrant screaming queen became a kind of, uh, it's a terrible thing, but they became a kind of embarrassment. And if you watch their profile, it begins to disappear in there and I. I sometimes think the same thing happening as we work towards gay marriage, that [00:19:30] the danger we have with that kind of assimilation is that we can actually sacrifice elements of our own culture. Um, that have stood the ground when we weren't there. And they will always be uneasy. They will always be socially uneasy. They're not. They're not designed to fit in, but they are designed to be part of society. Sorry. I'm wandering off the question. No, no, that that That's fascinating. Do you think your, um, anger kind of manifested itself in your creativity? [00:20:00] No, what my anger did, and this was actually only brought up a couple of years ago. Somebody noted it, and I hadn't even realised it. I'm really in my work because I don't just do queer stories. You know? II. I see myself as a queer man who tells stories, Um, but not as a queer storyteller. And, um, I've got this huge thing, apparently, And I see now it was a big thing with injustice, A big thing. But it's not limited to just the queer issue. And, um, I think, you know, I think [00:20:30] lots of people who've grown up queer oftentimes find that one of the benefits of it, and they're not a heap load of benefits. But one of the benefits is that oftentimes if you get your shit together, you develop a very good empathy for other people, whether it's the fat, ginger headed girl who's called a slut at school, or whether it's somebody whose belief system was different, Um, or somebody who's coping with some kind of disability or someone who's who's making brave steps in the face of opposition. The best the you know, [00:21:00] the one of the best payoffs of growing up marginalised is that you become empathetic. You mentioned earlier, uh, at that North Shore meeting, you you keep on referring to we and I'm just wondering what, who who was we? We was something that looked like, um, a group of vagabonds out of the tape drama club. Really? It was a, um there was a a little meeting called as I recall. And, um, Warren, Warren Lindbergh Me. [00:21:30] I think one of the Wells guys it might have been Peter Wells was I think it must have been about eight of us down there. And, um and this was when the first talk about this law reform Fran wilds built was coming in, and the idea that we had to be we actually had to be politically, reasonably smart with it. Rather, traditionally, our approach had been to, um, carry a banner and yell loudly, you know, And while that had been great for the adrenaline, it didn't move politics ahead. So and we were looking [00:22:00] at how we might, how we might play that out, And, um, and that that group grew bigger. And then an interesting thing happened that those early marches the the marches at the end of the seventies down Queen Street, when there were, like, eight of you carrying banners they were. They and the police didn't like you like the standard approach. You'd always stand next to a police, a police police woman and start a conversation with you. And they weren't allowed to talk to you. And but you just tried to humanise yourself to them, you know, [00:22:30] and then be seen talking to the cop as you were walking down the street carrying the banner. You know, it was just it was just politics, but But anyway, the, um, kind of sound like a manipulator, but that's it was just survival. And then I remember those marches through through years of, um, I remember we had banner gay Rights of Waikato, which had two walls from wall and the dog and foot right flats, you know, walls on it, holding hands, and, uh, and those marches had been very lonely. And then, in the turn of one incident, [00:23:00] there was this organisation set up called hug. Heterosexual was unafraid of gays, and suddenly the marches were packed. Lots of gays felt that they could join them because they could now be mistaken for heterosexual. They were wearing hug badges, you know, and you go fuck off. But that was the terms that they could join. That was the terms they could join. So while I guess a few radicals were a bit pissed off, I in my heart I knew what it was to be afraid to, to come out and and that's a quite a rough road for anyone. It still is [00:23:30] today, but being on suddenly being on a map march, where it was all trendy, trendy was very, very disorienting and very, quite deeply disturbing. You knew politically it was a good thing. But you realise that there were a whole lot of people missing from the march who were never going to be there anymore. And they were the ones who were screaming their tits off, you know, from the from the back of somebody's car in in bad drag four years earlier. [00:24:00] So but it had to happen. That was the nature of mainstreaming and the mainstreaming. While it was toxic to some, uh, we lost some cultural stuff through it. Uh, it made it safer for a lot of other people. And I think it also made it safer for a lot of parents of gays and friends of gays. Um it started to break down this strange split we had between lesbian women and gay men who kind of were were really oppositional at that stage. [00:24:30] And we, you know, slowly we kind of looked at our commonalities a little bit more and started realising that one of the quickest way to dis, you know, disempower a minority is get them to fight inside themselves. And, uh, yeah, so does that kind of answer your question. What did law reform mean to you? Um well, it meant what the true thing it meant was that my mates didn't get hassled anymore. [00:25:00] We after the thing that happened on the on the North Shore, we started getting phone calls at home, and, um and he would I mean, he he didn't take shit from anybody, but he wasn't used to women screaming obscenity. Well, not screaming Bible verses down the phone at him. And we had, uh, we had a We were living in Grey Lynn at that stage, and I'd come up from And, um, it was just before I started building the house out in bush, and, um, [00:25:30] we, uh he he was getting he was getting upset about the whole thing. He said it's gone too far and, um, you know, and I knew I'd been part of it, but I loved him very much, and it's hard when someone you love is getting hurt. And, um and I still don't know the answer to that. I still don't know how you negotiate your way through that, but on my birthday A, um um they the post office was next door, and there were these these these lovely women and they they'd [00:26:00] seen the thing on TV. So they knew what? You know what my political involvement was and and, um, uh, they were a lot of people were ambivalent at that stage, so I don't think there were a lot of people weren't hostile. They just didn't understand because this looked different to what they had understood. Gay was. So they were seeing quite ordinary people. Um, but they were also seeing that in a conflict situation. So it was unsettling the the status quo, so they were ambivalent. And anyway, um, one of them popped and said, Oh, parcel for you in the post office. And [00:26:30] I thought, Oh, it's my birthday. Well, two days away from my birthday. So I went in and we were joking. It was handed over this little parcel and I said, Well, I thought who who, you know, didn't look like anything on you, And I opened it up and it was a cigarette packet full of shit, And they it had an amazing effect because the women in the post office were kind of crowding around and saw it, and they suddenly realised what this was about. The big guy didn't know where to put it. You know? What do you do with a cigarette packet Full of shit? And they were they were really shocked [00:27:00] and they said, Well, who sent it? And I said, Well, who's look for it? There was nothing and I said, Oh, don't worry, I know what this is. And I think I realised then that that people understand things when the ordinary, when the ordinary is infected with with, um with the intolerable. And then two days later, another one arrived and, uh, they had they said, it's quite light. It might be all right. And it was a cigarette packet. This was so tacky. With cotton wool dipped and coal and a razor blade in it, you know, [00:27:30] And but those things there were I think that what happened was for many people, I mean, those are graphic examples. But for many people, um, what the law reform did it showed ordinary people. It showed that there were queer men who had kids Or that there were, um, lesbian women who look just like your daughter. And, um And who did he like? I used to often wear a suit when I went on a march. And I mean, I only possess two of the bloody things, but I'd do it [00:28:00] because I see it as a political thing to to reinforce the ordinariness of things. But I don't actually believe there's any such thing as ordinary, but to to reinforce to to to to kill off the otherness. You know, when you make something into the other, you can treat it like shit. And if you stop it looking like the other, And yet I'm caught in the same thing because I don't agree with kind of the whole integration thing. So it's a contradiction. How was it for you, or can you describe for me what it's like [00:28:30] when you're kind of thrust into the media spotlight, where it must be quite unsettling where you you actually don't have necessarily control over the story or the narrative. That's a very perceptive question. They used to. I don't know if you know the old name for The Herald used to be Granny Herald Granny Herald used to always When I was on a march outside the when the, uh, Victoria Spa sauna got raided, they sent another undercover cops, and most people probably know about this. They sent another undercover [00:29:00] cops, and then they they made some arrests, and that sauna was was tied in with what was to become out magazine. And although a lot of people are disparaging about them, they, Bret Shepherd and Tony Kado were actually they gave a lot of money under the table to political causes, and they certainly were the thorn in the side of the customs that they they really were a lot of battles, not them on their own, but when people kind of wipe them off and go, they were just commercial rip-off agents. That's that's actually not true. I don't think that's [00:29:30] a a deep enough analysis of what was going on and, um, the so they they rang up and said, Look, would you be willing to march outside the courthouse? And so I was teaching down in Hamilton at that stage. So I took a day off, went up and still a photo I got somewhere around marching down sign saying a cop in a bog is a cop and a sauna is a screw like Oh, fuck. There were about six of us marching up and down, up and down. Of course, the Herald described it, I think, as two people and the gay press [00:30:00] said it was 100 you know? So it was all it was all full of bullshit, really. But it was a It was a, um It's a pretty, um uh, pretty frightening, um, March Because, really, those were the ones that were it was unsafe. That was where you were left with the core. Those little core of people and a lot of people didn't have a lot of a lot to lose. Like a lot of people. Um, no, some people weren't employed by they were privately employed. Now they weren't. It wasn't in something like teaching where [00:30:30] you could lose your job quickly or in something that your business relied on you being, uh, socially safe, if you like. So there were some very, very brave people really, really brave people who fade now into anonymity. But they were the ones there, um, cutting the sidewalk up, doing that stuff that was a lot harder before it became fashionable to shot be gay and walk down the street. You know, did you ever feel unnerved by the media? Yeah, [00:31:00] I did. Because I saw I saw what it did to people's stories. Um, they could. It could be very. And I still I still get Really, um, I still know that at any given time you only have to look at tabloids to see what how they treat how little they value life. Um, and I look at somebody's story reconized and and turn them into, you know, putting a a to like, you know, the beast of something, or there's something on it. It's it's dangerous. It's very dangerous stuff. Culturally, it's dangerous stuff. [00:31:30] Um and so I've seen how lives have been muted with it. I've always been reasonably lucky because I've been reasonably articulate. I guess, and that's been a godsend, you know? But, um, but I've always been careful with, uh, if I'm interviewed for something. Uh, because you realise that, um, not all people who present themselves as concerned are actually that ethical when it comes to cutting up a great story [00:32:00] and you can find yourself I mean, like, the the news broadcast that went out from that thing where they closed down the meeting. Um, that took a couple of highlights out of the thing and made it look like this was a flaming battle. Actually, it was a very There was actually a lot of joy around it, but there was also a real sense of of fear, and the fear was in the family because you'd just seen half over half of your people shut out of a public meeting. Um, it's a very hard [00:32:30] thing to watch. It's very hard. And when those are your friends and you're walking past hoping they don't acknowledge you so you can get in. And so it works on very subtle levels. So when you when you see those things, um, re taking the eyes out of something to tell the story in a particular way. I think over time it teaches you to be more careful with the media. What was interesting, though, that although we had workshops at the end of the seventies about how to handle yourself with the police, never workshops with how to handle yourself with the media. It was an interesting thing. [00:33:00] I think today it's something that probably fairly useful. But I don't think just for queer people. I just think for anybody who's in a marginalised position. Unfortunately, you know, if you look at David Gray's arguing arguments, things don't get more civilised. They just, um they just change their nature slightly going through something like the homosexual law reform and some of the the kind of intense experiences that you had. Do those experiences stay with you? I mean, I guess what I'm asking is, you know, does it have a psychological [00:33:30] impact, you know, 2030 years down the track. In truth, the things that really changed me were more fundamental, like, uh, falling in love. That changed me. Um, learning that if you're honest to the people that you love, it's gonna be easier for them, you know? So telling family and stuff like that. Those are things that were really profound. But I think those those other situations they they there is something cumulative that sits [00:34:00] under the surface. And, um, in the law reform, I learned I learned not to be afraid, and I actually did much more for my public speaking than ever doing speech contests at college ever did. So that was that was a good thing. And it not that speech contests at college were really great learning and devices. But but, you know, like for the AIDS thing. Um, this weekend I got out a video on, uh, American video. I didn't actually know what it was. It was [00:34:30] called rent, but I didn't know what it was going to be, but it was about AIDS. And I sort of thought, Oh, fuck. Another tragedy age thing, you know, because you after a while, you kind of if it didn't have the human face that you knew it, it was turned into an issue. And so it kind of lost stuff. But I had, um and I'm not wimpy with with narratives. I mean, fuck, that was hard to watch. The grief was very hard. to watch. And, um, it's not that the ghosts of all your past come back. You just [00:35:00] I I'm a I'm a guy who's very hard, very hard for me to cry. But somehow that triggered other grief and you're sitting there thinking, Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. And so, something in the in the other layers of you, the deeper layers of you Um, there is residue of those those things, those tougher things. But it doesn't. I mean, I've always been a a staunch believer. You don't If you let something like that disable you, you actually defeat the purpose of [00:35:30] it. Um, but it it leaves my, uh, one of the cool things that did. Well, one of the cool things that aids did is I'm really good with handling death. Now I'm I'm much more. I just understand it as a very ordinary thing. And so, like with the death in the family or something, um, it's you can be quite level headed, and, uh and you realise that the person who matters most, the person whose opinion who matters most is the person who's dying and fuck everybody else. They're the ones who have to be looked after, and they're the ones who need to [00:36:00] be listened to. But I would never have had that if I hadn't come through as lots of lots of gay men wouldn't have if they hadn't come through that, um, that that process. So there are layers, but they're not. They're not fundamental. They're not operating up on the on the top level. That kind of moves into the the next area where I encountered you. Which was when I was, um, photographing the AIDS Memorial Quilt. And there was a, um, a panel for Ian. Um, a a absolutely [00:36:30] beautiful panel. It was the guy who I was walking home holding hands when the cops stopped us. Yeah, he was a lovely man. A lovely man. Um, when the quilt thing first came out, I thought I was a bit naff. You know, I thought, um, and I and and And really, it didn't help me with the grieving process because I've never sort of thought of, um, you know, I will now grieve and sort this out. That's never Oh, I out to a farm boy. I don't I don't sort of think like that, you know, [00:37:00] But But, um, I wanted to I realised that he was a man's life who would be overlooked. He would be overlooked. Um, but he was a good man, a really, really good man. And he was the first man I ever fell in love with, so it was very, very profound. And, um and I thought, Well, I I'll make the quilt just a simple just about the simple things like the tow rope we had and cutting up his [00:37:30] pyjamas and my shirts and painting the hills outside the window. And then I also did another one for Kevin with him with wings on, And, um but they became they just became a way of just making sure that those people weren't lost in the statistics. I remember, um, at Kevin's funeral, a guy did something that really pissed me off. He sat up and told how many people, how many told people how many friends he had who died of AIDS. It was like a running telly. [00:38:00] But fuck, none of us are numbers. None of us are, um, an accumulation on a score. You know, um, each of us is a unique contribution to this. To what's here, and and so that's what I tried to do with the quilts. But then they they did A In the end, I, I kind of pulled away. Two incidents happened with the quilts that I found difficult. Um, I. I think they were a very good idea. A very good way of getting the human [00:38:30] face across. But they had a a memorial at the at the art gallery, and they were reading up the names as if it was a piece of poetry, you know? And it was all theatre. 00, fuck. You know, I would have told him to eat shit and die, you know, just it's not That's not, you know, these are these are real people. They're not theatrical names in some theatrical gesture of grief. And the other one was that, um a crew was doing something about it might have been gay Pride Week or something. And they had Kevin's quilt round there, [00:39:00] and they asked us to stand behind it and hold it and smile like it was a banner or something. And I I thought, Fuck, I'm not. This is This was my mate, this mate. I won't describe it but anybody who's lost someone with with AIDS, it's not. It's not a pretty thing, you know, it's it's a fuck this standing here all smiling and going Ra Ra ra as if we're carrying a banner going, you know, come to the gay parade. And in the end, they they the the, um, producer was getting pissed off [00:39:30] and and said, you know, would you just smile and I fuck this so I don't use my rag very often, But I just said, Do you know who this fucking man is? And then I told him to take the quilt out of the thing and, uh, and and, you know, I walk off and it was it was not a particularly well handled situation, but is the difficulty with the quilts is that they could move into theatre. And in doing that, while it becomes a more consumable [00:40:00] product, it loses its relationship to real people when it just becomes a set of tearful stories. And I know I know that that's partly how it operates. But it had a tension because it was trying to do two things. It was trying to deal with the grief of individuals and communities, and it was also trying to be a public statement. And there's a tension between those two things. So when you see them all laid out, you know, in in, uh, in New York, you look at it and I go, What the fuck? You know what the fuck that's. [00:40:30] But you know, when you, um, a mate rings you up and says, Um, you know, I'm I'm looking for a bit of, you know, such and such cloth because I want to put it on the quilt and you go around and you have a cup of coffee or you have a beer with him and he's working through it and he's never touched a sewing machine in his fucking life. And he's trying to do the best thing he can. It's a very different thing. It's a very different thing. And the two fact the two don't They can't meet up, but they kind of had to with the purpose of what the quilts were. Do you think that perhaps [00:41:00] it was the moment between creating the quilt and then actually gifting the quilt to the quilt project? That's when that kind of change happens so from from a kind of a personal, um, grieving or or signifier type thing to then making it a public statement is that it's a perceptive. That's a perceptive analysis of it. Um, probably, unfortunately, in making the thing your relationship is enshrined in there. So even though you gift it over, you can't pull your relationship [00:41:30] out of it. It's not a thread that you can pull out as you hand it over, and so that's why that tension exists in there. I think, um, some people, I mean, I knew a couple of people who did them as showcases, and that's cool. That's fine. That's what they wanted to do. But for people where they really were quite grief things, it's hard. I'm not saying that the initiative is wrong. I'm just saying that many of these things are because they're difficult, they have difficulties in them. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be done. But they're not all black and white and, um, [00:42:00] and when you hand it over, although you are handing it over for that public use, you are still you and your relationship with that person are still integral to it, and and that's part of what gives it its power, but also what causes it to run in detentions when it's used in a public environment. What was your first knowledge of HIV and aids? That's a really good question I was living in. And, [00:42:30] uh, the, uh, which actually isn't a shithole that most people think it is. And, um and that was when I first heard about it. And the first thing was, uh, talking about cat flu and then that we knew it was Americans. And there were lots of jokes about it being airline stewards because airline stewards. So a lot of jokes went around Airline stewards sort of was equivalent with fake suntans and sluttish behaviour. Really, you know, and and and envy because they always look great. Um, but, um, the [00:43:00] the first thing I heard was that it was, uh it was cat flu. And then this was, I think, before the word aids came out. And then that because the anxiety is what the hell causes it. And there was some worry at some stage. It was to do with poppers. There was quite a an association with it with MR nitrate. And then there was kissing could do it. And then, you know, all the pandemonium broke out and and people thought that, you know, looking at a gay man. I mean, [00:43:30] when I was, um, I was teaching woodwork. I remember one time we, um we had a meeting woodwork, teachers and and, uh, part way through. Everyone had a cup of tea, and I'd finished my cup of tea, took it out to the kitchen, and, um, washed the cup, turned it over, went back out and then went back out to the kitchen for something. And one of the guys had some Jeff and was scouring out the inside of my cup. You know, they they all they all knew I was gay and, um and sort of Oh, fuck, yeah. There's quite [00:44:00] a bit of stuff kind of going on through all this through all this. But anyway, I think I've missed your question. What was it that you asked me? Uh, your first, uh, knowledge of HIV N. Sorry. So it was about poppers and then but fairly early on came the idea that if you used a condom, you were fairly You probably gonna be safe. I'd never like I still don't like them, but I The reason I'm alive is that I use them. But I don't like them, you know. But, um, [00:44:30] most of my mates didn't use them, and they did. So that's all there is to it. I I'm not even a you know, like I see some people go safe sex, or sometimes they go fuck off. You know, sometimes not. No, not sometimes. You know, you're either gonna have to do it all the time or not at all. And, um but, uh, I I think there was there was some frustration. One of the big frustrations that we ran into was that [00:45:00] when the Health Department started taking over the AIDS thing, there was a fear that our people would lose the identity. One of the great things that we were able to do is we knew how to talk to each other. Whereas the straight world didn't know they did ads like jumping out of aeroplanes with parachutes on, you know, and and of course, I mean, we know what the fuck. And I remember I used to go around the country riding on toilet walls. Um um no, come up the bum, you know, or, um yes, a mosquito can give you AIDS if it doesn't wear a condom. You know, just stuff like that. Just it was just graffiti because you're just doing [00:45:30] anything, anything you can. Oh, God. I've just revealed myself as a graffiti artist, but But you were that was just you. And that was especially in the time when the Health Department was taking over the language and the way to get those messages out and because they weren't getting out. Our men were dying. And it was only when when our men kind of reclaimed some of that stuff and started putting our own stuff together. The early stuff had to be underground because it was the only only way that you could get kind of get the message across. What [00:46:00] was it like losing so many friends? I mean, I imagine for a lot of people that would happen later in life. But actually, for somebody in their thirties, what was What was it like? This will sound tough, but you grow to accept it. You just grow to accept it. Um, the harder ones were the suicides because they never, sometimes even their families didn't know why that had happened. And there were quite a number of suicides. Um, [00:46:30] but you knew in the family you didn't have to ask if someone committed suicide. You you knew what it was. Um um that the harder things were things like going to some of the funerals where, um it was in the family had asked that nobody was to know that he was gay. And so you're there and they're pleading with you not to, You know, that they want that kept secret. And, of course, you've had to go through a journey of, of [00:47:00] reaching, becoming an honest man, and then you're caught out of love and respect for them, but also in conflict because you know that he didn't tell his family, but he he was out inside his environment. So those those those some of those funerals were tough. Um, but some of them were amazing, too. Some of them were fucking amazing. I remember one guy. He was a naughty boy. He really he was He's a very naughty boy, but he'd grown up high church, Roman Catholic, And at the funeral, there was a Maria was sung and on one side of the the the, [00:47:30] um church was all his biological family. And on the other side was this the gay family and very many manifestations. Anyway, it was all very high church all the way through. And then, as as the coffins being taken out, his voice comes over a recording of his voice, which can be particularly unnerving when he's in the box, you know? And he said, this is, uh I I'd finally like to leave you with this with this last message. We're carrying the coffin out and out comes Donna Summers. Bad girls. You know, it was just and you just went. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. [00:48:00] That is so good. That is so good. So, you know, there was. There was, uh, there was great stuff in there, too. But it was, um it was stuff that had its feet on the cold concrete. You know, it was having to deal. It was dealing with the real real, the real things. But the unknown made it. The unknown known made it, um, quite a hard thing. One of the interesting things I found, uh, visiting San Francisco recently was that there is a whole segment in, um, gay [00:48:30] Castro That doesn't exist. You know, there's a whole age group that just are very minimal. And I'm I'm guessing that's probably the same in New Zealand Where, um, that number of people taken out of society, society, um, kind of travels with you, So I mean, like your your age group. Hm? Yep. Yep. That's true. That's that's just a fact. Um, it's just a fact. And, um, um, the benefits [00:49:00] are that those of us who and it was only fate. It was only fate that, you know, I was living in tape. There's not a lot of gay people are calling into, you know, um um and that was a time Fortunately, by the time I left, I had the information, but, um um, very careful men, um, very informed men also died, you know, because is an element of luck in it. That's just [00:49:30] the hard truth. Um, so, yeah, there's a gap. There's a gap, but where I sometimes think it where you notice it is I'm I'm really interested in in the changes in queer language. And you can see this gap where there's a whole piece of queer language is not known, and that was that died out with those guys in there. There's only a few people who've kind of got through who can who still use that, who can still understand that. So what? What are some examples? Well, most people talk about Pila, which is, you know, Piri, which is stuff that came into New Zealand [00:50:00] with the Merchant Navy and on Julian and Sandy. But there's other things like, um counting, that's that's counting. It's also similar to the counting in the fairgrounds. Um, there's, um um terms like to describe it to me a bit more. Sorry, I thought, Well, this it's a It's a gay counting. That's how he counted. It was 123456789 10. OK, but that language is quite similar to the language of the underground language of prostitutes and the underground language of the fairgrounds. But [00:50:30] but other terms, like a wait to was a Waikato policeman and they had it was because they was talking about them having big asses because their pants were so baggy. But or Commodores Commodores were the cars in the eighties that were the plain clothes car or cop was called a Commodore because all of their plain clothes car cars were Commodores. Everybody knew what they were. But those those words you you Most people don't know them anymore. But they come from that. That little group. And, um um, So people [00:51:00] know the older and people knew know the new kind of texting language or the or the online acronym? They know all that, uh, acronyms. But there's this little piece in the middle that's that's not so well known. And who is a Maori? It's a cross between Maori and English that's not known, which is a more of a thing of, um, to be and true. You know, true, behold, like totally. But today we go totally, you know. So, um, this is yeah. So [00:51:30] there there is in that in that group that's kind of dropped down, and it didn't completely drop out because none of those things are discrete, completely discrete. Um, there there is. There is a lot of stuff, and I think that if you look at us historically, the stories that run through that space are the ones that reach the media and the oral histories because we can't get to so many of those men. They're harder to patch together. That's that space in there, especially with those oral histories. Disagree with the overground narrative of the birth of the tribes and all. All that sort of stuff. [00:52:00] Do you think that loss of, uh, people in the eighties and nineties, um also, you know, we lost potential leaders? We lost, um, people who now would be seen as the kind of elders of the LGBT community? No, no, no, I Because I don't think, um, II I tend not to look at in, in, in a deficit model. I just think, um, that those those men gave us something. They they are not turning them into martyrs. [00:52:30] But they Yeah, they They taught us that if you don't become political, it has a terrible cost. If you don't take control of your own communication, it has a terrible cost. So today we have, you know, the website. You're putting this on all these things. They exist as good things because there was a time when they didn't exist, and we saw the consequences of that. And even though that may not be logically put together it is a consequence of a knowing that is [00:53:00] a is cumulative. And so, you know, our people. I mean, I could be 12 years old again, back in, and I could contact Rainbow Youth on my computer. Fuck that wasn't there in the 19 sixties, you know? So we we understand, as a people the importance of not only telling our own stories, but also of activating media and and and and making sure that the way our stories are told are more authentically our own rather than being grafted onto a sensationalised [00:53:30] other picture. My third encounter with you was, uh, at the Asia Pacific Out games. Uh, the human rights conference where you were giving a paper on do And, um, yeah, I'm really fascinated by the idea of hidden histories of language that is maybe being lost, that that that are used in specific groups. Can you tell me where that interest comes from? For you? Um um, I like quite honest people, and, um [00:54:00] and so within that, uh, I'm not glorifying sex trade because there's some some crap stuff about it, But but I'm also not dismissing it because there's some really good stuff in there, but the same way as with you doing this. You realise when in the broader narrative of what it is to be in New Zealand, when there's a gap and there's a gap, there's a gap so that most people didn't even know there are sex workers. Even if you go, I can take you through truth in 1914, 15, 16 and here they all are. People go, ah, you know and [00:54:30] and and the concept of it is juice biglow male gigolo, you know, and you go Fuck, fuck. No, no, no, no, no. And and so I just think that it's important. It's also important for our own people for us to understand that there are dimensions to being gay. It's not a singular thing. It's not a monolithic construction. And, um, and also for people to realise that sex workers are not, um, tragic school dropouts who are junkies who you know, will steal [00:55:00] the eye out of a needle. It's it's it's another industry, it's another industry. So I was really interested in in kind of going back and trying to, um, get some of that narrative, and I did some of it through oral histories. And they were some of the most interesting interviews, like interviews with elderly men in state houses up and above Wellington. You know, and and who. When they start talking, they slip into the language and all the stuff comes out. Just just wonderful stuff. That's the richness of oral histories. And, um, but I was [00:55:30] really interested in this language because it's not the same as gay language because not all male sex workers were gay and, um and there's like gay language doesn't have a lot of word for a lot of words for money, Whereas that's an important one. They don't have names for clients. So while they might have similar words for the police, there are other areas that are quite different. So I was interested in kind of trying to get this other stuff so that people didn't just go, Ah, male sex workers. They must be the the sleazy gay young gay guys, [00:56:00] which it's not, you know, it's a it's a definite It was never a culture that was well accepted into gay society anyway. Um, and it's never been that accepted into, um, the women's sex work. And so It's set as a kind of a strange, isolated little phenomenon, and I'm just interested in in those parts that they become enrichments to what it is to be a New Zealander, you know. So how did you find people to talk to networks? Same way you do. We just use networks. And that's the wonderful [00:56:30] thing about inside researchers. We just the families, a grape vine and and with it comes your authenticity. People go, you can talk to him. He's alright. He's family. And that's the That's the hidden part. I mean, I'll do this interview with you because I trust you. If you were from Metro, I'd be guarding this very different, even though it's still going in the public domain. And and that's the one of the great things that that our people can do as inside researchers is that we have. Although we have a very high [00:57:00] responsibility then because we live in that same community or or love people in that same world that we're trying to document, Um, it means that we can get to stuff other people can't, and that's a good thing. Talking to those older men about, um, male prostitution did anything surprise you? The humanity, the humanity. And no, it didn't surprise me. It just reminded me again. And that Think [00:57:30] the strength, the fucking strength of some of those people. You know, um, you know, Mark Gleeson's very rough hotel down the bottom of town. Some of the stories and the dealings with the police were just Fuck, I thought we had it rough. Nothing compared Nothing compared, um, just the tenacity of some people, and you go, Jesus, don't start whipping about what a hard life you've got you Nothing compared, but more than that was the I. [00:58:00] You know, I can think of one worker who, um um uh he worked both as a man and as a woman, but he he he does prison visits all the time. Still, he's retired, you know, um, prison visits. He's in the Maori Women's Welfare League, and he's a good man, just a really, really great man. And, uh and that's the thing that sometimes, you know, my dad used to say this thing about sometimes through the hottest fire comes the strongest iron, and I know it's a kind of a an old cliche saying, but [00:58:30] it's It's actually very true of some men, some of them men who've paid pretty rough costs. But they don't see that as part of their persona. They they give a great deal back. A great deal back, you know, from oftentimes to a society that often times treated them like shit, you know? But it's not revenge. It's just compassion. And that's a pretty cool thing, you know, to get to. Yeah, your film boy from 2004. Kind of brings all those threads together in terms of, you know, male prostitution, [00:59:00] small town, Um, your kind of creative, uh uh, energy. And, um, by the way, I love your visual aesthetic. It's just amazing. Um uh, talk to me about that film. Is it something that could have been done any earlier in New Zealand than 2004? Do you think it's an interesting question? It it didn't. I wasn't waiting for permission to do it. Um, stylistically, I don't think it could have happened much earlier because it was draw. It drew a lot of [00:59:30] its, um, its aesthetic of music videos. Um, and I was interested in how it might tell the story. in a way a music video would. But music videos would never tell a story like that. So it was kind of looking at the hegemonic construction of society as music videos, using their device, but telling a story they wouldn't touch and and T VCs it looked a little bit like a television commercial in parts. So in that regard, the subject Fuck it. People were talking about male prostitution back in the thirties. You can still [01:00:00] trace it back through literature. So, um no, no, I don't think, um I mean, I wrote my first book of queer short stories and it was published in 1982 or something. It's not if you if you if you think you'll do it, you do it, you know? So I, I don't know. I don't think it was waiting for its time. It just But stylistically, it was much more of a of of a period. Do you think it was harder to make a queer story? Yeah, because you pay a cost because then everybody [01:00:30] wants to put in the the Queer ghetto and go. So what's your next film? About what queer Thing is your next film about and you go. Actually, my next film was about paedophilia. I go Oh, and you go, I'm I'm interested in the human condition, you know, in in what it is. It was about a false accusation of paedophilia, and, uh, and it was sort of like, Well, that's a bit strange. You're going off the off the the mark. And and but one of the things I've got I'm really quite staunch about is, um, Just because you are Maori or gay or whatever else [01:01:00] does not give people permission, even your own people to put you in a shoebox and go that that's that's the definition of your territory. No, no, no. Fuck that. That that queerness is is a a ticket to being able to talk about the human condition, and, uh and you look at people, you know, I look at, um, people like that talking about the same thing way, way back, same issue going I would going I might talk about some stuff, but don't assume that I'm only going to talk about queer stuff. Yeah, [01:01:30] that's just and that's not post gay. That's just common sense, you know? Well, speaking of words, what word would you use to describe yourself? Or words? Uh, you know, a gay queer. What would you go for? I still use gay. I mean, I. I know I use queer sometimes in academic writing, but, um um I heard it called out too many times for it to really set anything more than just a kind of a literary term. It doesn't sit right, um, gay, But but really, part of me would just rather use the term [01:02:00] fuck off. You know, just like who cares? Really? Really. I'd really if If if if I was known as a good man, that would be a cool term, you know, or, um, uh, kind or thoughtful or strong. Those things help. But, you know, I don't want people to introduce themselves as a heterosexual. I'm not particularly interested. I just want to know, in case I don't make an embarrassing, you know, um, assumption, Like, you know, when they invite you to try and hook you up with their sister or whatever. You know, I don't Yeah, but But that's the [01:02:30] only That's the only kind of declaration that I want to. Um and and that's quite cool. Now, is that? You know, a lot of a lot of our younger gay men don't, um it's not hiding sexuality. It's just going I I'd rather not have that as the major thing you use to determine who I am, but But if the issue comes up, I'm fucking in there like a like a rot wheeler, because I, you know, very defensive of of of, uh, Of gay men. Yeah. [01:03:00] So with boy, it was, um was it it was nominated for a A short, short, short listed. What did that mean for you? Well, it was funny, because it it got really bad reviews in New Zealand. It was It was put in the New Zealand Film Festival and it got slated. Absolutely slated. And the same is with muted the film that followed it. Munter didn't even get selected for the New Zealand Film festival, but it won Lucerne, and it's it's won all these awards overseas, but still hasn't screened here. Still hasn't screened it, won't it won't. [01:03:30] It's just but I don't make my work for New Zealand anymore. I love this country, and I the stories from it feed what I do. But I don't make it. I don't make the work going. I want, you know I will make this. So it fits New Zealand sensibility. And so there's no boy doesn't look like a I mean I can The the setting is recognisable, but it's not stylistically, a New Zealand short film. It's it's doesn't belong anywhere. It's it's just a different way of talking and muted. Looks like [01:04:00] the 1961 New Zealand. But it's it's not a New Zealand looking film. It certainly packs a lot of kick for like when they didn't accept it in the New Zealand Film Festival. Apparently the response was was too long and too dark. Fuck, it was dark. It was telling a shitty story. But it was a true story, you know? So so I don't know. I don't know I. I just, um I'm very proud. I'm very proud to be, you know, be here and be a New Zealander. A lot of my stuff [01:04:30] is interested in the rural because that's a that's where I grew up, and, uh and that's kind of where I live still and, um and and it's easy for me to talk from a voice that I understand. And that's why sometimes queer things come into my work, because that's a voice. I understand. But, you know, so do academic voices and a whole lot of other voices that, you know, like my I like building houses. Those things come into a sort of that kind of answer it It does. I I I'm wondering what [01:05:00] what effect on you does it have? Uh, not having a New Zealand audience. Sometimes it feels sad. And that's because the people who help no film is one person's thing, and the amount of generosity and talent that goes into that, um, is phenomenal. And I've worked with people who, um, I'm in awe of just both for their talent and their goodness, you know, just for their their their belief in something, Um, and the difficulty is that their friends don't get to see [01:05:30] it, you know, they can give them a DVD. But you know, you make it with the production value, so it works on a screen with all its nuances of sound and all its grade. All that stuff is sitting there. You get it. Um, DVD is fuck. It's tragic, you know, it's not. It's not so good. It's not so good. Um and so you know, you you're sitting over in Berlin watching the thing or you you, you you're in, um, in, you know, or wherever and it's beautiful. It's playing up there and you go Fuck, no one will ever see this here in New Zealand. No one will see it like this. [01:06:00] You know, no one will see it. And it's funny. The university tomorrow it's screening. The university is putting a screening down at the, um, cinema, uh, academy. But that's just because it was part of my professor professorial address. And, um, because I wanted to do the address on practise led scholarship not, you know, on creative scholarship. And so that was the first. A few people saw it here. And, uh so they've asked for another, another screening. But it's but that's just kind of in house. But I don't know, I just [01:06:30] you know, all I really want, because I'm not. I don't not a person who's hugely swayed by awards or anything. All I want is enough so I can get money to make another film, and that's it. And then I want to make the best film I can. That's it. I don't give a fuck about the, you know, when When Boy was in the New York Film Festival and you're standing up there, they put a fucking spot spotlight on you. All these people standing up who you don't know, standing up, giving you an ovation, and you just go. What the fuck is this? It doesn't doesn't register, but on the walk [01:07:00] home, you're thinking I wonder if that will help me get some more funding. I wonder if I can get to make my next piece, and that's what it is. So fuck the fuck the glamour. I'm not not interested in that. I just If I If I could get me my next piece finance, that'd be cool. It'd be cool.
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