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Um, my name is Vaughn Shepherd. Uh, I come from a quite a conservative Christian background and a very large family. I've got, um, six siblings, so that makes us seven total. Um, with a mom and dad, Um, my mom's still alive. My dad passed away a few years back. Um, but yeah, we were a very loving, supportive family. Um, of course, when I came out, I was a bit of a stir within my family because, uh, being gay and being Christian was, you know, not the done thing. Um, but also, [00:00:30] it's taken me a long time, but I'm at the point where, having been with my partner for 13 years, I'm ready to go through and have a civil union and celebrate our day and, yeah, get married. Finally, let's talk about terminology, because on the first instance, you say Civil union, the second time you say marriage, what to you are the differences between the two? Well, I don't say that I'm getting civil unionised. I say I'm getting married, and it just [00:01:00] to me, uh, I think it's great that we had the civil union, and it's given us, um, a point to sort of say yes. Let's, um, see same sex relationships on par with, um, the heterosexual, um, normative marriage, but it hasn't really quite met the balance. And I think there's there's a lot of Christians out there gay Christians who want to get married. And by all means, [00:01:30] um, I know that there's a lot of Christians that don't want to see gay marriage come through because they think it's against, um, the the law or the biblical law in terms of, you know, man and woman should get married. But, um, so to those sort of people, I probably say, Well, you know, when God puts two people together, who are they to, you know, keep them apart. And definitely with my own partner, I feel like, you know, we were brought together for a reason, and there's a lot of love that we have in our relationship and a lot of love we share not just between [00:02:00] ourselves, but with our family, our friends. And yeah, it's just about having a day to sort of commemorate that, celebrate that and sort of say thank you to our friends and family who have been there to support us. throughout. You know the the roller coaster ride that it's been? Yeah, I want us to time walk back 13 years because 13 years ago in New Zealand, there weren't even civil unions because I think civil unions came in and was about 2005 I. So when you first got together with your partner, can you recall what [00:02:30] you felt in terms of? What did a long term relationship mean in terms of, like, the gay sense And and, you know, I mean, was things like civil unions ever on the horizon. OK, if I'm time walking back 13 years ago, I probably have to go back 14 or 15 years ago when I first sort of came out. Um, and my first relationship with a lovely man, um, who we'd spent a year and a half together. But I was of the mentality that there was no sex before marriage. So having had sex with him, I automatically assumed [00:03:00] that I must be married to this man and we weren't a good match. Um, there were things about the relationship that were never going to work. And although I stuck at it for that year and a half and he was a lovely man. We just weren't compatible on many different fronts. So when we broke up, it was kind of like, Well, what does that mean? Now that I've broken up because I always thought that there would be one and that would be the rest of my life. And I would be committed to that relationship, whether I had a document or I didn't have a document. [00:03:30] Um, So when we parted away as I was a little bit disillusioned with the whole kind of falling in love and having had a broken heart, I wasn't ready to get back into a relationship at all. And, um So when I had gone to queer on campus one day at university and I met this young lad called Shane and I thought, 00, he's a nice guy and thought, um, yeah, maybe maybe we'll go out one time, but also thought maybe I could look after him and sort of introduce him to the gay [00:04:00] world because it can be a pretty scary place out there. Um ended up sort of inviting him to a play that I was in, which was called I was, um, one of the actors in the play, And, uh, he was the only person from queer on campus like I invited everyone to come to see me perform. But he was the only person that came, and he actually came twice that this is a big thing, because, um, if you know my partner, you know that he's he's very musical. He loves, um he he loves [00:04:30] music, but he loves classical music. The musical that I was in was quite a sort of modern piece, and for him to come twice to it, you know, it was quite a big thing. So he sacrificed a lot to come and see me perform. Um, but yeah, the rest is sort of history. We we met. And, um, I guess when we were when we were starting out, I was thinking, This isn't going to last because two weeks into our relationship, he told me he loved me. And at that stage, I wasn't ready to love anybody. I had sort of gone [00:05:00] through that whole thing and had a broken heart, and I just was like, he must be crazy. This is This is not going to happen because two weeks. But, um, he's stuck by me, and he's shown me that, you know, through it to all that. You know, love does persevere, and it does stick by you. And, yeah, he's a wonderful man. I'm very, very lucky. Interesting. In the first relationship you had, you were thinking that, um, you know, sex, marriage, marriage [00:05:30] for life. So that's, um where does that view come from? Well, it came from a conservative Christian upbringing that, you know, you can't have sex before marriage. And so in my mind, I knew that there was no concept or nothing out there that would give a gay relationship. Um, the nup, Jews to sort of say yes, you're married now. Um, and so it was just in my mind that I'd gone through the process that if, you know, it was a belief system, a faulty [00:06:00] belief system in some respects that as soon as I had sex and that was the one and it was going to be with someone special and and he was special, and it was lovely, and but I guess it's a mature both in the relationship and outside of that relationship. Looking back I can. I know that we should have only ever been friends. And And it it wasn't a relationship that was ever going to be long term. There were just things that didn't quite mesh. [00:06:30] Um, and and the relationship that I have with my partner, Shane, we're just we're two whole people. And I always felt in that first relationship that he was always expecting me to fill a void in his life. And I think it's really important that people need to first work on themselves and have love for themselves and not be looking to the other person to fill that void or that space in their life. And it makes such [00:07:00] a difference because it means that people aren't jealous or worried about. You know what the person is doing and who they're with because they know that they love and respect that person, and they're going to do the right thing by them. So, yeah, when civil unions came into the picture, uh, what kind of impact did it have on you and and also your relationship if I want a time warp again? I'm thinking [00:07:30] of when the, um, whole homosexual debate came up way back when and that first law passed. And I remember watching TV and I watch watch these gaming and walk down the streets and I was sitting there quietly, even though I didn't want to be gay. And I was so homophobic as a young person growing up really low self esteem part of me inside was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And then I remember my mom walking in and saying, Oh, isn't it just awful as [00:08:00] it awful homosexuals? Oh, I can't believe that they put this law through And of course, that was my mom way back then. She's so done A whole 1 80 degrees. And she's so supportive and loving of our relationship that I have with my partner now. But, um, when the Civil Union Bill came through, it was sort of that same feeling. That little boy inside of me going Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So yeah, I was I was really stoked about that, but at the same time, there was a level of [00:08:30] sadness in it as well. It was like, Yes, we're almost good enough, but not quite. And having struggled with that low self esteem for so long, It's sort of like giving someone a carrot. You know, they don't get the carrot, but never quite giving them the whole carrot. And, um, so you kind of feel happy. But then, you know, it's like an Indian gift Indian giver, where they take the gift back. And it's not really going [00:09:00] to make that whole self. Yes, you're worthy. You're a person who who who should be valued in society. It's, um it was a nice token gesture, but it didn't quite measure up to what I would like to think is equality. One of the things with that civil union campaign was that there was a very strong anti movement through things like destiny Church. What did that kind of, um, negative, [00:09:30] uh, coverage, especially in the media. Um Well, uh, the media weren't necessarily being negative, but I mean, the the the the messages coming from Destiny Church were very negative. What did that kind of do to you? Um, well, the interesting thing is, I think a lot of people are naive about, um a lot of the messages that come out of Destiny church and and as a prime example when, um, Destiny Church wanted to march down Queen Street [00:10:00] for certain things. My mom was like, Oh, wow, there's this really great Christian movement that's on And they're wanting to get support from other Christian people to to march down Queen Street on family values and everything that my mom believes in. And she was this close to walking down Green Street with Destiny Church and I was like But Mom, you've realised that these people are completely anti gay and that's the message that they're sending. Are you sure that that's the message you want to be sending out to the rest of New Zealand? [00:10:30] Because, you know, that would hurt me. That would affect me. And she was like, Oh, oh, I didn't realise that. I thought it was just, you know, that we were marching for family values and, you know, and I'm all supportive of family values and I come from a large family and I'm embracing my family every day. I've got my sister and Brother-in-law and there are two kids staying in our house at the moment and I love it. I love it. I love being part of a large family. Um, so, yes, [00:11:00] there are some Christian people, some very conservative Christian people that seem to deny what Christ was all about, which was about a new start and about sort of embracing one another and putting everything behind us and embracing one another in love. And I think that's the strongest message that Jesus had to give to one to us was to love one another as he has loved us, and they forget that and they concentrate on prejudice and pride, [00:11:30] deceit, and they're all the things that are evil in the world. Um, because I read my Bible and I know my Bible, but there are fruits of the spirit and people out there that are campaigning against liberals with conservative ideas. When you when you listen to them and you listen to their fruits, they're not talking love, they're talking hate, and it's a propaganda. And so, yeah, just be aware of that. And you can see by [00:12:00] their fruits what they're peddling and don't be part of it. Did she march? No, Definitely not. She she definitely came around to the whole kind of, uh, well, actually, I don't support that at all. So was that a big shift for her because, as you say, like I mean during homosexual law reform in the eighties, if she's going, Oh, these are These are really not very nice people to suddenly be turning the other way. It was a huge shift for her. Um, but the the strangest [00:12:30] thing is to me, my mother has always embodied what what God should be about. And when I came out to her, it didn't matter that I was gay. You know, a mother's love is unconditional, and I think that's what God's love is all about this unconditional love. And, um, it was such a weight off my shoulders like I'd spent the 1st 21 years of my life going. I'm going to be designed by my parents when I come out to them because of my Christian upbringing that there's just no way that they're going [00:13:00] to accept me. Um, otherwise, you know, I'm going to be the lone sheep in the family, and I'll never have contact with any of my siblings or anything like that. There was this huge weight on my shoulders that it'd be just easier to end it all, and not not to live because I either lose my family or I become a sinner, and I lose everything anyway, so, yeah. Stupid, stupid thoughts went through my mind when I was a teenager. Really? You know, in a bad [00:13:30] space in a black place, you kind of contemplate suicide, and I'd encourage any young teenagers who might be listening to this life gets so much better. You know, just give it time and tomorrow, You know, tomorrow is another day. Um, look at the small things embrace the small things, go out for a walk if you're feeling depressed. Um, because you know, there's a future for you out there. There's a rainbow future, and it's so much brighter and the rain will clear and the sun will come out and you'll just feel so much happier at the end of the day. So [00:14:00] just hold on to to tomorrow. Hm? Can you recall your, um, own thoughts when things like the Destiny Church marched through Wellington with that kind of enough is enough campaign. Do you remember seeing that on the news and what impact that had on you? Yeah, I do. Um, I'd probably say to my partner quite often, you know, I'm not really a politically [00:14:30] minded person. I don't care about politics. What I do care about are people, and I care about people's hearts. Um, and my profession is in architecture, but my passion is in the architecture of the heart. More so, um, so when I see people marching, I think, you know, for for a cause I think maybe some of their cause is valid and they're marching for good reasons. But maybe they've taken it to a point where that being, [00:15:00] they're not understanding the bigger picture. They're not understanding the people that they're marching against. And there needs to be a dialogue which has opened up where they sit down and actually understand what what are the big issues in life? And what does it mean to be marching against gays and lesbians because, you know, you have a belief system in a certain way. You know, what will it take to convince you that there's there's a bigger picture out there and they need to [00:15:30] forget about fighting a fight and start loving one another? And all of that would change, but it it makes me upset, and I see sometimes I'll watch movies and I'll get to the end of the movie and I'll just be bawling and, you know, it just really upsets me. And when I see violence on TV, it really upsets me. And yet, you know, I think maybe Destiny Church. If we're talking about Destiny Church, there are [00:16:00] really positive things that have come out of Destiny Church, where you know, a lot of these men from South Auckland who come from, you know, quite, um, angry backgrounds, um, or haven't been able to control their anger. And they may be have a relationship which has been abusive. They're learning to control that anger, and they're learning to channel it into more positive ways. So, um, sometimes, you know, having someone at the top who's, uh, a bit of [00:16:30] a military dictator, um can actually steer those people in a in a really positive direction. And so I think when you know, lives have been changed because of that, I think that's a really positive thing. But I think those men have to stand up and realise, Well, that didn't come from Brian Tamaki that came from themselves and the god within them. And you know, the the Maori sort of tradition about holding the the staff, the is it the inside of you? I think that came from [00:17:00] one of the movies, which is a really strong metaphor. I think that's really important that those men, um if they're wanting to be strong Christian men need to hold that that male strength, which can quite often lash out and hurt someone inside and be pillars of their community. But they don't need to to do that, they just need a belief in themselves and a love for themselves. And, yeah, it was really interesting. I was having this conversation with them, my brother-in-law, um, [00:17:30] the other evening, and we were discussing how, when they were growing up, there wasn't a lot of affection in their home. Um, and their fathers didn't didn't hug them. They weren't told that they were loved by their parents, you know, it didn't happen. And, um and it was just a really interesting sort of snapshot because, you know, one of my friends had come from sort of quite a broken home, but he [00:18:00] didn't have those kind of role models that could be affectionate with him to sort of show him how He should be a father to his own Children. And yet he's a wonderful father to his little two year old girl nowadays. And and, you know, there's just so much love in that relationship and they're very affectionate with their baby girl, and I just love it. But they've they've had no role models to show them the way you know. They've just had to learn as they go along. And, um, yeah, so I think it's important that men sort of embrace not only their [00:18:30] their masculine side, if you if you call it that, but that more softer side. And, um, maybe gay men have a have a means of sort of helping them reach that equilibrium, because we we both sort of understand what it means to be in touch with the feminine side as well as that masculine. And, um, you know, if they could break down those barriers and just let us sort of educate them a little bit, we could help them and create a bit of dialogue between both the female and male sexes. Um, because sometimes they break down, [00:19:00] and we understand both sides, which is kind of a bit funny. civil unions came in. Did you and your partner talk at the time about what that actually meant for your partnership? And also, did you and your family talk about civil unions at the time? Well, the interesting thing is, my partner had sort of said, Look more two weeks into our relationship. He said, I love you. It probably took me a little bit longer to say I love you back, but, um, [00:19:30] we kind of got to the position after probably seven years that we felt like we were a married couple already. I mean, we fought like a married couple and usually about the most banal things. It was usually things like Who would turn off the light at night, like you turn to turn off the light. No, you turn to turn off the light, stupid things like that. But, um, you know, just bickering. It's like I think, for heterosexual couples, they think gay couples must be totally different to them. And, you know, there must be no kind of antics in the bedroom [00:20:00] or just silly things that go on. And yet, you know, we do bicker and we do fight about silly little things, but on the most part we're very happy in our relationship. So civil unions didn't really change anything for us. We didn't decide. Hey, as soon as the Civil Union bill came through that that's for us. Let's do it. I properly did have a conversation with Shane and I said, You know, what do you think? Would you think about want to get have a civil union? And his response was like, Well, why would we? Why [00:20:30] should we? We We're already, you know, a married couple. Why do we need a piece of paper to To to say how we feel? Because we know how we feel. And I think there's a lot of gay and lesbian people out there today that are like, Well, why should we? Sometimes I think that's a bit of a knee jerk reaction. It's sort of like, Well, we've been so kind of kept under the thumb about, and we've been oppressed, and we've kind of taken on this internalised homophobia that we're not good enough. We don't measure up. It's not equal [00:21:00] our relationships with the heterosexual relationships that this knee jerk reaction it doesn't do us a service and At that point in time, I probably was still living in that kind of internalised homophobia where, you know. OK, well, it's doesn't measure up. And I don't feel proud enough to say I want to marry this guy and I want to walk down the aisle and I want to celebrate it. So I didn't fight for it back then. It took a bit of shift in my way of thinking to get to that [00:21:30] point you mentioned just before about saying, I love you and he said it within two weeks, and it took you longer. What does that mean to you? What do those words mean to you? Ah, I. I knew this interview today. Um, it would cover sort of area, which was probably going to be part of the, um the vows and possibly things that I want to say on [00:22:00] the wedding day. Um, but I think you know, a lot of it comes down to my upbringing as well, and I just think of first Corinthians 13, where it talks about love as patient love is kind. Love never envies. It never boasts, um it always perseveres. And those things as measuring yards stick to our relationship. Um, I know that there's love in this relationship because it is has proven the test of time. 13 years, and we're still together 14 years this July. [00:22:30] Um, so those words, they do mean something to me. I. I love people easily and a lot of love. A lot of people. But the love that you have for a partner, it's special, and it's different. And those weren't words that rolled off my tongue, Um, to begin with because, you know, I'd already done it once, and I already had the broken heart, and I didn't want to make that same mistake twice. So, um, like a stew pot or something? I think [00:23:00] our relationship wasn't Wasn't that kind of crazy mad love? You fall in love just overnight bang like that, which I'd probably describe this lobster into a boiling hot, um, that of hot water kind of thing. This was the kind of love which was, you know, a complex stew that just slowly over time developed and the Romans came out and and Yeah, I think so many people say that they've fallen in love, but, um, they haven't really experienced love [00:23:30] until they get to year seven or year eight, and they work past those this first sort of nick pains of, you know, is this the one or is? Isn't this the one? And then you kind of realise that it's not so much, um, the big things, but sometimes the small things that really make a relationship as the affectionate affection that you share with one another. It's How do you know about the five love languages? [00:24:00] There's a book written out there, which is a wonderful book which talks about the five love languages and sometimes people are, you know, verbally. They say, I love you. Some people express it through their actions. Some people do it through gifts. Um, some people do it through. Uh, anyway, there's two more. But, um, everyone's got a different sort of, you know, proportion of you know what's important to them. And for me, I think it's always been you know, I don't care about gifts, but it's always been about the verbal. It's been about the kinesthetic [00:24:30] love. Um, and what was the other one? Kinesthetic love. The verbal and actions actions were really important to me, and, you know, my partner has always shown me love through his actions, and it's always been small things, but they've always meant a lot, you know, it's just sort of He's standing in the kitchen, and the next thing he comes up and he wraps his arms around you and he just says, You know, snuggles up to you And he says, I love you, you know, And to me, that just makes my day. It just [00:25:00] makes me feel full of beans. You know, I might have had a tough day at work, but that just wipes the slate clean. And I'm ready for the next day. Or, you know, speaking of displays of affection, um, what about public displays of affection, like holding hands in public or kissing? Or how do you guys go for that? Um, I think it really depends on the the place that you're in, like, um [00:25:30] and Sydney down Oxford Street. It wouldn't be a problem. You could probably kiss someone in a cafe or anywhere, and it would be perfectly fine. Um, but me and my partner, we we're probably quite conservative on that front, especially in New Zealand. It doesn't seem to have the same vibe that Oxford Street in Sydney does. But even outside of Oxford Street in Sydney, um, you probably wouldn't be affectionate with someone else, um, out on or something. [00:26:00] It's just not the dumb thing. So I wish that there weren't the taboos around public displays of affection for gay people. I wish we could walk down the road, and quite often I see lesbian couples walking hand in hand and I think, Wow, that's awesome. And and they can be affectionate with one another. But there seems to be this other shift that happens when two men are holding hands or being affectionate with one another. I don't know what it is, but, you know, I think heterosexual males are quite happy for two lesbians to make out. Seems [00:26:30] to be a bit of a turn on for them. But as soon as they see two men making out or you know, being affectionate with one another, suddenly they want to, you know, bash their heads in, which isn't such a nice thing. So, um, public displays of affection No, Would I love to be able to hold my partner's hand and walk down the road with with him doing that? Yes. And I probably have done down a deserted beach or, um, definitely around my family and friends. You know, I'm not bothered [00:27:00] about just being me, uh, in a friendly environment. But when you're out in public where you just don't know the people, then not so much in those early years of civil unions did your did your family. I know that this is a gross generalisation for mothers, but, um, ask you, you know, are you getting married or, you know, are you thinking about it, or were they Were they kind of pushing you in that direction? No, not at all. I think, Um, by that stage, [00:27:30] uh, Shane had been embraced in the family, um, as as my partner. And And that was just a given. And there wasn't any kind of Oh, you've got to get married now, um, to make this ok, uh, I think every you know, everyone. My siblings, you know, the ones that had struggled with it had come around to the idea that, you know, this was it. This was it for life. Shane was a lovely man, and they weren't questioning it, so no there was no kind of push to go and get [00:28:00] civil unionised because I don't think they even knew what it meant. But, um, you know, as soon as this marriage amendment Bill came came up, which is interesting because I had already decided that we were going to do the civil Union. Um uh, yeah, my mom was like, You will get married, won't you? You know, when it does happen, I was like, Yeah, I'll be the first one down the aisle, you know, it will so happen, but, um, timing hasn't quite worked out as I would have Might have. Might have hoped, but it's OK, [00:28:30] so flashing forward now to to kind of where we are now in the last couple of years, um, last year we had the marriage equality bill put up by the war, still going through Parliament at this stage. But you were saying that you were thinking about a civil union before that. And what what prompted you into that decision? Um, when I got back from overseas about maybe seven years ago, I decided that that's what I wanted to [00:29:00] do, that I wanted to get married to my partner that I was sick of waiting. Um, it was time. And, um, I'd gone down to his parents' place to ask if I could have their sons and a marriage. You know, devolve sort of, um, I don't know, traditional thing. It didn't make him the woman in the relationship at all, But, um, I'd gone down for a ski weekend. That was the reason for going down. But really, I just wanted to sort of scope them out and sort of say, Hey, what do you think? If we were to have a civil [00:29:30] union, would that be OK with you? I didn't call it a civil union. I said, I love your son very much, and I want to get married to him. I actually said the Catholic. I said I didn't give a rat's ass what the pope thinks, but it was probably the completely wrong thing to say to a Catholic sort of parents and was quite embarrassed. Afterwards, I sort of shot out of the home and went back up to Auckland, but, um, I had this little magical moment down, Um, a stretch of road, um called [00:30:00] What is the road? The desert road. and, um, sometimes it snows on the desert road. But at that time, it wasn't snowing. And I pulled over into this little rest area, and I turned on the radio. And the next thing was playing, Um uh, snow patrols, Um uh, chasing Cars Song, which was my favourite song at the time. And I turned it up and, of course, the the the band being Snow Patrol, you know? And [00:30:30] then it's that night. It was just a magical moment, and I just got out of the car and I danced around the vehicle because I, you know, asked Shane's parents for for his hand in marriage, and and I was just elated, and I just felt like I was dancing with the Angels, and it just was a very happy moment in my life. Um, And then I came back up to Auckland and reality hit, And, um, you know, I did a proposal to Shane and it was kind of accepted, but not really accepted because he didn't really want to get married. [00:31:00] And, um, I was kind of really upset about that whole sort of. I was in such a good place internally that I wanted to celebrate our love and to, you know, shout it from the rooftops. And he wasn't in that place yet. He wasn't able to say, Yeah, that's a great thing. Let's sort of say thank you to our family and friends and and have a wonderful day together and just celebrate our love. Um, so he was kind of thinking Vaughn is just being stupid. He's [00:31:30] just, um, playing silly buggers with me. And, you know, my whole proposal getting on me was completely sort of shot through the mud. Um, and, you know, I bought him a couple of rings while I had been in England at ST Henge. And, of course, they weren't gold. And they weren't, You know, they weren't the calibre that he would be expecting for a wedding proposal or something like that. So, um, yeah, there was a whole lot of things that weren't quite right with that first proposal. [00:32:00] Um, so I felt a little bit jilted, ended up going to, um, Saint Matthew's in the city and talking to one of the clergy there about how I was ready to leave Shane. I was ready to go down to Wellington. The relationship was over and I was just so upset and he just sort of counselled me and sort of said, Oh, well, you know, is there anything wrong with your relationship? And I was like, No, not really. So why do you want to leave this guy? I was like, Well, he's just we're so different and you [00:32:30] know, I've just proposed to him and he doesn't even want to get married And I was a bit of a bride seller back then. I think I sort of pulled my head on a bit more, but, um, it's all good and sort of I think it's been a process. And from that seven years ago, this whole last little seven years I've slowly been twisting his arm and he's been slowly coming around to the idea of having a civil union or or marriage celebration and and that's what we're doing. We're having a wedding, and we're gonna have a wonderful time. [00:33:00] But what got us here was that the little brother was getting married and my siblings overseas were going to be flying in from Los Angeles and London and, you know, large family six siblings and I thought Well, if the little brother is going to get married, I'm gonna get married either before him or just soon after. And, um So I asked him, What do you think? And at that stage, I was still kind of belittling the love that I share with my partner in comparison to what my younger brother has with [00:33:30] his fiance. Um, being a heterosexual relationship. And I was sort of saying to him, Look, you know, do you mind if we just have something small, you know, before your wedding? You know, how would you feel about that? And he was like, No, that's fine. You know, just do it a week before, and then it would probably took another three or four or five months to make me realise why. Why was I making my wedding Not as important as his wedding. And it was [00:34:00] It wasn't because he was saying that I should be doing that. It was because I was making it that way. It was because Shane maybe didn't want a big wedding like I did. He wanted a small wedding. But even with a small wedding, you can still have an intimate and a a very, um, personal wedding, which can be wonderful. Um, so there was a part of me that was still I remember a conversation with her girlfriend way back when when she was first telling me that she'd got engaged and, um and I just met my [00:34:30] Shane. I just met Shane my long term relationship, and I was really happy at that time, too. But instead of telling her and sort of coming telling her about my relationship with Shane, it was all about her and her relationship with her partner and celebrating the fact that she, you know, just got engaged and stuff like that. And so my relationship has always taken a bit of a back burner when it comes to talking with other heterosexual couples. I've never kind of celebrated my relationship and sort of said, Well, wait [00:35:00] a minute. Actually, it does mean something, and it does have value. So yeah, I think I've got to the point now where I'm ready to shout from the rooftops once again and sort of say, Hey, we're getting married and I'm really proud of it. And yeah, just in a really good space. And how has the reaction been from friends and family. It's been really positive. Um, they're just so looking forward to the day. And it doesn't matter who you speak to within the family. [00:35:30] They're just like, Hey, good on you. And I can't believe it's taken you this long. You know, they would have been there with us well before the civil union bill, um, walking down the aisle with us, Sort of saying, Yeah, that's really cool. So, um, I think sometimes governments and politicians sort of take a little while to catch up with what's happening out in the community already. Um, and definitely maybe, I don't know. Eight years. Nine years ago, I definitely had the support of my immediate family and our friends [00:36:00] and family, Our community around us, sort of saying, Yeah, we'll be there for you. Um, which is really interesting, because I was talking to someone of our church, Auckland Community Church not so long ago. And he mentioned how you know they've been having, um, ceremonies for gay couples throughout the years. Well before civil unions like this is not a a new thing. They've been doing commitment ceremonies for a long, long time and and quite often if if they're gay Christian couples, there's been Christian [00:36:30] couples. You know it. It's been a marriage that's been done. You know, there may not be any paper paperwork associated with it, but it's still been a marriage in their eyes and their hearts in their minds. For you, what is the most significant thing about a marriage? I'm thinking, you know, Is it the day that you're kind of putting it out there in public? That, yes, we are a committed couple or is it a longer term thing? What What for you is I mean, what [00:37:00] does marriage mean to you? I guess the question It's a good question. I think, um, probably most men have always got their little blinkers on, and they're always looking out left or right. You know, uh, or if it's a heterosexual male, he's always thinking, 00, she looks like it. Yeah, I like her legs and I wonder what she'd be like in bed. And sometimes they're thinking, Oh, maybe I'd like to marry her. Or maybe I'd like to marry her, But, um, as soon as you sort of stop looking [00:37:30] for someone else to tick all the boxes and you just focus on your relationship that you have at the moment and realise that that's the one. And it doesn't matter whether you're going through good times or bad times. You're gonna stick with that relationship, you're gonna make it work. Um, that's sort of when marriage becomes real. And I think for me, I was probably in Hyde Park in England and I'd kind of gone. This was when I was overseas. I'd gone through this whole sort of [00:38:00] mhm internalised sort of, you know, is saying the one Do I want to marry him? Maybe I just want to stay overseas and and let him return home because he'd already returned home. And, you know, do I love him, You know enough to spend the rest of the rest of my life with him. And when you realise that your partner is not perfect, they're not going to tick all your boxes, you know? Yes, He could be taller. He could be broader. He could be, [00:38:30] you know, a classical ballet dancer or something like that. And and that would be wonderful. Or, you know, a rock N roll musician. That would be great. because then I could sing in the band, Um, all of those things. And you realise that? OK, yeah. There's some wonderful aspects about that that you're really attracted to. And there are some things that almost like Jekyll and Hyde, and it was kind of funny being in the Hyde Park. So getting to this kind of this is [00:39:00] an epiphany. Do you love Mr Jekyll? Just as much as you love Mr Hyde. And you kind of get to that point where you go. Yeah, I do. You know, I can take the good and I can take the bad And And the person you know, mankind is both these good and these bad aspects. And when you embrace people like that, if you can embrace your partner and sort of say, Hey, you know, I know that you probably got issues in here and I don't like the way you always leave the toilet seat up, or [00:39:30] and and you just can work through that and realise that they're not so big issues after all, You know, it's what connects you heart and heart, soul and soul. That's what's important. Hm. Planning the big day and I'm wondering, How is New Zealand set up currently for, um, kind of same sex? Uh, celebrations. How? How have you guys found it? Um, [00:40:00] I've been very aware of the fact that, you know, if I approach people, I want them to know that this is for a civil union at this stage. Um, as for And if I was getting married, I I'd be telling people this is for, um, a gay couple so that people don't kind of BK at the idea. Oh, wait a minute. So we're making a cake for a gay couple? We've never done that before. Do we believe in this? Do we want to do this? Um, so, you know, I've been OK with the idea that, you know, some people won't want to [00:40:30] be part of that celebration. Um, and that's their discrimination. And I don't like that, but I'm not going to let it bother me. Um, so, uh, probably because the the whole ceremony has been sort of left up to me. I feel like I've been the bride. Shane's been like, it's all yours. You look after it. Um, I've I've been on google and and just sort of you know, looked at, you know, it's always been gay wedding, [00:41:00] um, venues and gay something or rather this and and sort of See what? Google would feed back to me And And, you know, obviously places who have had a gay couple get married there before have come back with hits and and you kind of go, OK, well, you know, at the moment we've got our venue sorted. It's Grace Hill Vineyards. And they've had, um, same sex marriages, civil unions there before. And so that ticked all the boxes and met the guy, Um, seemed lovely. They were very [00:41:30] open to us, celebrating our day there. No big issue. He kept on calling it a marriage. He wasn't calling it a civil union, which I absolutely loved. And, um, not that he was gay at all. Like he was married to a lovely lady. And I just realised, Oh, this is really cool. You know, there's a lot of new Zealanders out there that don't see it as an issue anymore. It's just sort of, you know, hey, it's your day and and they just want to be there and make it as special for us as possible, which is lovely. So it's nice to have, [00:42:00] um, you know, Joe Bloggs, who you may think have might have had some conservative bent and not be supportive of you. Sort of saying, No, that's cool. You know, you want to celebrate that day, then you have it, and and that's kind of the way it's been. So I've I've been busy racing around, trying to think of everything and do everything and and then I'll talk to my sisters and they'll go now. Have you thought of the hairdresser? And I'm thinking, Oh my God, no. Should I have thought of a hairdresser? [00:42:30] It's like, Yes, you've got the bridesmaids, You've got the flower girls And I'm like, Oh, boys will never think of these things. So, you know, II, I feel like, um, maybe if I'd been born that woman, I would have had more insight into terms of, um, you know, making sure I had the hairdressers sorted out and the vehicle sorted out, which have all been sort of left to the last minute. But I think I've got the main things you know, sorted out the venue and, um, everyone that's going to be in the bridal party and the speeches and those sort of things. But [00:43:00] it's been fun organising. I really loved it. And, um, for the most part, I haven't come across anyone who's been really kind of anti the fact that this is a a gay celebration. So as the day draws nearer and is it about 21 days out? Oh, yeah, it's about that. It's about 21 days. Yeah. Um, are you guys pumping? Are you finding that your your your families are getting more stressed in terms of Oh, you've got to do this. You've got to do that. Or why haven't you done this? Oh, [00:43:30] no, not at all. Um, I think it's probably interesting at the moment because I've got a sister staying with us. And so I've got a full house. I've got a little two year old nephew and an eight year old niece who are running about the house, and we've got friends coming over from Germany, staying with us, which is, you know, going to mean that I've got an even fuller house, which is going to be crazy. But I'll love it. I love it. I don't know about Shane. He does like his sort of peace and quiet. We're quite different in that kind of aspect. But, um, you know, it is just for two weeks. So [00:44:00] if anyone's getting stressed out, um, maybe it will be Shane, but I'll be there to support him. So tell me about the day. How how? How are you planning? What are you planning? What are you planning? So the day is going to start probably with bridesmaids getting their hair made up at 10 a.m. And, um, but the little flower girls getting their hair made up, um, we will have already sorted out all the, um suits. So it will be just a matter of [00:44:30] us men getting dress. Um, and we're then going to make our way. Probably. My my little younger sister is a photographer. So I don't know what's going to happen between probably the hours of 11 through to four, but there's going to have to be lunch there, and I'll be feeding a lot of people so it could be pizza. I don't know. I haven't thought this one through, but, um, we'll be getting from our house, which is in Black House Bay through to [00:45:00] Grace Hill, which is in, um, hopefully buy some nice vehicles. We've got a gay couple. It was really funny. We had this gay couple move into us next door and was like, We're not the only gays in the village, And, um, one of the guys next door owns or works for a big car agency. So I'm hoping we can hire a couple of vehicles from him. Um, and they can take us to the wedding venue. So I hadn't thought about the cars that [00:45:30] was so not on my radar. I was thinking we'd just go on my little Volkswagen polo or whatever. And I was like, No, you can't put the bridesmaids with their dresses and those kind of cars. I was getting the feedback from my sisters and my mom and I was like, Oh, really? You can't? No. So, um yeah, so I have to think about that a little bit more, but, um, my sister's a photographer. She's a professional photographer. So check out Jenny photography, awesome photographer does baby photography, and she's [00:46:00] also getting into weddings. She's done a lot of weddings recently. Um, she'll probably be taking us down to the beaches. We've got some local beaches where she'll want to take some photographs. But yeah, should be fun. And then we arrive at the venue probably fairly much bang on four o'clock, and we're hoping to start the ceremony. Um, from then, um, it will finish maybe quarter to five, and then it's just people will have drinks and it will be a bit of a celebration. My [00:46:30] sisters will be singing two of my sisters who have beautiful voices singing during the signing of the register, which today I just found out I thought the would be bringing who's also a minister. He's a wonderful man from Saint Matthews in the city. I thought he would be bringing the paperwork. And my brother, who's getting married as well his his fiance's already thought of this and already got their paperwork all sorted. They're like, Why do you You don't have your paperwork for the day? Yeah, you [00:47:00] gotta go and sort that out, brother. I'm like, Oh, really? I was just leaving it up to the cellar room and I thought he'd look after that, the minister, but obviously not. So I've got a busy couple of days to sort that one out. Um, yeah. Um, the the rest of the afternoon will probably be just photographs and photographing everyone that's there. It's an intimate ceremony. So there's basically only 40 people there, our closest friends and family. And that's what Shane had [00:47:30] sort of given me as a brief. You know, I wanted to invite everybody in sundry, but that wasn't his idea of, you know, a nice wedding. So, yeah, we had quite different ideas, so I had to compromise on some things and you mentioned vowels a bit earlier. On what? You're doing your own vowels. Um, well, I had written my own vows, but then I realised what I'd written as my vows were actually better as a speech after the ceremony. Um, and I don't [00:48:00] know whether the the clergy, I hope he doesn't mind me using his name. Clay Nelson of Saint Matthews. He's he He already had a format sort of underway and some possible vows. You know, I'd given him my list of what I thought could be eerie fairy vows, and, um, Shane vetoed all of my vows and went for his vows, and he said, Let's just do those? This is straightforward. I can remember those. So, um yeah, we won't be doing doing our own vows, but I'll definitely do a speech [00:48:30] at the the reception. Yeah, cover off the things I would have liked to have seen in my vows. And you mentioned about, um, having photographs taken on on beaches and stuff like that. What do you think that is going to be like you said earlier about not holding hands in public and stuff suddenly to be out in public spaces where you're, you know, this is your man. This is, um I guess I'll probably be surrounded by family and friends that, [00:49:00] um it won't bother me too much, but probably the beaches that we go to won't be very public beaches. Anyway, there'll be beaches close by where we'll probably be the only ones on the beach anyway, which is it may be a little bit sad. It would be great to be able to go to or one of these main beaches and just, you know, go. Hey, here we are. And who cares who gives a shit? And it would be really nice to have the public sort of supporting us and maybe clapping us and sort of saying, Hey, that's great, you know, Look at the gay couple down there getting married and and and getting some really positive [00:49:30] feedback. Sometimes we don't give our public enough, Um, kudos. And a lot of them. The majority of them will be behind us. And it's a small minority who can, you know, really? You know, tear your heart apart or do worse can do physical, um, damage towards you that that really spoil it for the rest of them. Because, you know, there's a lot of people that would be OK with We're seeing 22 men down on the beach getting photographed on their special day, and it wouldn't bother [00:50:00] bother them at all. Certainly there was a fantastic reception to the two guys in the in the car on the Pride parade just recently. I don't know if you saw that with the marriage equality, Um, as as they came down the street, you know, they were kissing and the crowd just went off. They were It was fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. Um, well, we were part of that parade. Auckland Community Church and and a lot of the gay friendly churches as well was sort of under this umbrella of Auckland Rainbow Churches, which was really cool. So we had [00:50:30] the Methodist, um, Pitt Street Church. Um, who else, um ST Matthews in the city and, you know, a number of others, which was really cool. And we had a really positive reception from the crowd. And I think a lot of people who may not have been sitting on the fence about walking in this parade especially, you know, a lot of gay Christians seem to be quite conservative, which I think is quite a bit of a laugh, because I would have thought that gay Christians were the most liberal people out there. But they're quite conservative with how they are not only with their [00:51:00] philosophy, but, um, being in public. And and they're not necessarily. They may be proud about who they are, but they're not wanting to flaunt it. And so, for some of them walking down that street and getting such a warm reception was huge for them, it was like, Wow, I just didn't think it could be like this, and it was just so wonderful to be able to, you know, put the thumbs up and get people smiling back at you and giving you the thumbs up. And, yeah, just lots of smiles and a warm reception. It was wonderful. Very affirming. [00:51:30] Lots of pride. Gay pride. Your wedding. Does that have a thing? Mm. I have six siblings, and, um and so it has a gay rainbow theme. So, um, I've kind of asked all my siblings Maybe there's Godzilla coming out of me, but you've all got to wear your your your colours. So, um, the eldest has got to wear her indigo. Um, the, um, second artist is wearing her [00:52:00] violet. Um, next artist. I don't know whether she's going to make it to the wedding or not. Should be wearing blue. Um, Then we've got my younger sister who's wearing yellow. I'm going to be wearing green, which is the middle colour of the rainbow. Um, and my little brother wearing orange, and my younger sister, who looks awesome and red will be wearing a beautiful red red, um, skirt dress. Yeah. So we're going to be the rainbow family on the day, and I've asked everyone else if they could wear black and white with maybe a feature [00:52:30] rainbow colour as well. So hopefully when we get photographed, we we'll get this beautiful rainbow effects going on. But you know, that's a little bit of me. But I, I don't know, people could turn up in beige, and who knows that will be OK. I'm not that much of a Hitler when it comes. When it comes to the organisation, what happens, happens. The marriage equality bill is is going through Parliament at the moment. If that passes and [00:53:00] and there is marriage equality in New Zealand, is that something that you guys would go for? Would you change your civil Union for a marriage? I think so. I mean, to me, it would be really important, and I'd want to do that straight away. I might have to twist Shane's arm again. I'm not sure what that process will be like. I've already done the Civil Union. I don't want to do the whole marriage thing again. But, um, I've always wanted to get married in a church, So this is happening at Grace Hill, which is wonderful. [00:53:30] I feel like Jack and Jill have gone up a hill and that's really cool. But, um, you know, I'd really like to do the church service. And if I could twist his arm and just doing something small but intimate and a church Saint Matthews in the city Because I know that they will be supportive there. And we've got clergy there that will marry us. And Clay would have married us if the law had gone through. Um, but yeah, he's also a celebrant. So he can do the civil Union, and, [00:54:00] yeah, Have you investigated what happens to the the the the Civil Union once marriage comes in? I mean, does it can you, um, almost swap certificates Or do you have to kind of get kind of divorced as a civil union and then remarried as a and this? I don't know. I thought it would probably be quite straightforward that you just swap one certificate for the other certificate. Um, I don't know whether it would bother too many people. I think a lot of people who may not come from [00:54:30] a Christian background who have, you know, heterosexual couples who have opted for civil unions will continue to have civil unions because they don't want the church involved in their, um, their particular union, and I think that's fine. That's great. But for those people that would like to So I'm married instead of civil unionised. Maybe swapping paperwork will will be an important aspect for them. Um, I think for me it will be an important aspect to sort of celebrate. Hey, [00:55:00] you know, we've finally reached a quality and yeah, for gay pride because that's awesome. That's the final stepping stone. Um, I think it will take a while for people to 100% come behind it and for it to be normalised, and it will take probably many, many more years. But, um, you know, if the majority are behind it supporting it, then that's That's a huge, huge stepping stone on the way. And hopefully young teenagers won't be growing up going. I'm feeling so depressed and I'm feeling [00:55:30] suicidal because I'm gay and there's no there's no hope for me. There's no future for me because I can't get married and I can't. You know, I can't have a wonderful relationship with a man because no gay couples are ever happy. Hopefully they'll have role models out there. They'll they'll know people in the community, their uncles, who might be a gay married couple and will be will be more visible. So people will know that, you know, it's not a choice. It is the way we were born, and, um and we can just be part of the community. [00:56:00] We are your doctors. We are your nurses. We are your architects. We are your psychiatrists, your builders, your drain layers. We're everywhere. And, um, we're also your brothers and your sisters. Um, sometimes even your parents and, yeah, just love us, support us and know that you know, we love and support you. Back before we started recording, you told me, um, a very sweet story. As as a teenager, Um, I'm [00:56:30] wondering if would you like to tell? Tell me that again, because I think it's so sweet. Um oh, I've fallen in love with, um my best friend when I was in sixth form. And, um, everything about this guy just was wonderful. And at the same time, you know, he was my best mate and I didn't want to be falling in love with him because I didn't want to be gay. And that was the last thing I ever wanted to be because I was a good Christian boy. So, um, I had this internal dilemma [00:57:00] where I was falling in love with my best mate, and he he would say things to me sometimes. Like we would share things. And it would. I remember this one time where, um he said to me, You know, if you weren't a girl, you'd be my perfect match, and I was just inside. I was breaking it apart. Going Oh, crap. Why should it matter? Because, you know, I already thought he was my perfect match. Um, but, you know, it was a puppy. Love 16 never been kissed before. [00:57:30] And, um and then he once asked me, You know what? What I was attracted to in in person, and I thought, Well, this is a bit sort of strange to be asked this, but you know, I've always been attracted to people's eyes. I love people's eyes because I believe that the the windows to the soul, and I think, um, you know, when you connect with someone, when you see someone's soul, you know, that's that's more magical than anything in the world, and I loved his eyes. He had beautiful chocolate brown eyes. [00:58:00] He was just He's stunning. He was really stunning. And he asked me, You know, what do you think of my eyes? And I was like, Oh, I didn't know what to say. You know, I wanted to tell him exactly what I thought of his eyes, but at the same time, I was like, I couldn't go there, you know, he just completely, you know, punch me in the face or, you know, So I was like, um, you're a bloke, and he was like, Oh, so it makes a difference. And I said, Well, yeah, you're a bloke. [00:58:30] Um, but, you know, maybe it doesn't make a difference. And maybe if we could look into one another's eyes into one another's souls and sort of see the beauty that's there, the body would fall away and we'd be able to embrace one another as souls and as beautiful spirits. Um, and that would be a wonderful future to to strive for, Um, so, yeah, if he's out there, he knows what I'm talking about. I don't know whether he's He's, um I don't [00:59:00] know. I think he probably had a little bit of homophobia, kind of growing up. There were a few things that he said, you know, But being blokes being teenagers, you kind of get that. Anyway, it was sort of the stereotypical things that you say and you make fun of your friends and you put down, and even today, you know, there's the expression like that's so gay, and it has a negative connotation. But, um, you know, I always thought if I did mention it to this friend, that it would just be the complete end of our friendship. Um, but [00:59:30] he was a blessing in disguise, which is really awesome. And I ended up writing him into memoirs of an undercover Angel, which is the book that I've written in body, mind and soul. So check it out. But, um, I hope he doesn't mind, but he is in there, Um, because he helped me come out. So thank you very much. You know who you are out there. But, um, both my sister and myself have fallen in love with the same guy, and it was a crazy kind of situation. And I hadn't told anyone that I was [01:00:00] gay or I was feeling any of these feelings and I. I so wanted to be able to tell someone and express it. And so I wanted to tell him, but I didn't know how he'd react. I ended up writing this beautiful poem called The Tear, which is also in the book, um, which was about tearing myself away from him. And when I broke up with him, it was almost like breaking up with a girlfriend or something. But he had this tear that fell down his cheek. And I wrote this poem about that particular instance. But, um, my sister used [01:00:30] to come into my bedroom and she'd say, I'm so in love with, you know, uh, he's just so dreamy and she'd write his name all over her books. I love da da da And, um, I'll call him Sam. OK, but Sam knows who I am. And, um, it's not Sam, but, you know, it was I love Sam this I love Sam that I love and and one day I just broke down and I cried and I was like, But Johnny, why do you realise that the way [01:01:00] you feel about Sam and I couldn't finish the sentence because, you know, I had never, ever said anything to anyone about any of this. And she was trying to figure out what the rest of the sentence was. And at first she was thinking, Oh, it must be, is the way that you feel about me. I was like, No, no, no, no, I'm not going there. No one says no. No, The way that you feel about him is the same way I feel about him too. So yeah. So I came out to my little sister [01:01:30] when I was 16, but I was in love with Sam, and, um yeah, and she was awesome. She just was so supportive. And she just kept it a secret for many, many more years. And it wasn't until I was 21 that I was really ready to come out. I sort of denied it until that stage, but there were lots of things that happened in between 16 through to 21. That sort of really helped me along that journey to sort of finally get to the point where I was proud enough to say I am gay.
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