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So my first question for you is when did you first get involved with transform? Um I was really trying to remember what year it was, and I have absolutely failed. I even googled it and come up with anything. But, um, it was when I was working, as I think it was something like the community development worker or officer Wellington Gay Welfare Group, um, had some money to hire [00:00:30] to be able to employ somebody. And so they employed me. I was already running, um, schools out at the time, So I think schools that has been going for quite a long time. And then it maybe stopped for a little bit and start again and that kind of thing. So I was doing that. And then I was employed with Wellington Gay Welfare Group, and then I actually don't know how how it all happened. But Brooklyn Michelle and she's this two spirit Trans woman, Native [00:01:00] American Trans woman from the States. And she was in Wellington, and I don't know how I met her. Maybe just kind of Wellington queer stuff, but yeah, we we got chatting and decided to start a trans group because schools out was I had a little byline. It was probably something like queer questioning that, but yeah, we thought we, um it would be good to have a specifically trans one, because I guess there's some you [00:01:30] know, specific things about being Trans, which aren't always around other queer stuff or whatever. So, yeah, I think we just started it. And I, I really have no idea what year that was. It was desperately. I mean, it's probably got to be a good 10 years ago or something now, but yeah, I don't know if you chat to Brooklyn, she might have a better idea. Actually, Bella Bella might know, or we could just minus Bella's age, [00:02:00] then from now, because when Bella started, she was she was, like, 10 or 11. So it was probably like, whatever Bella is now, I think she said 2009. Yeah, that sounds about right. That's, like, a decade ago. Yeah, I was just wondering if you'd like to explain just a little bit what the Wellington Gay welfare group was. Oh, no, I hope I can. They are a group of I think they've been around [00:02:30] for a really, really long time. I think they started the switchboards for when you when there was no Internet. And you thought you were gay. And so you looked it up in the paper and you rang a phone number. So when I started there, the phone number was still going, so we'd still get calls then. And so, yeah, they had a roster of I think it was all men at that point. Um, and so you're involved with them, And with schools out were you were saying? I think schools out started in Wellington high school again. [00:03:00] No idea what year, but it was for, um, yeah, I guess. Queer young people, and maybe eventually And I think they maybe had lots of people like young people coming from schools that weren't Wellington High. And so maybe it got moved off, you know, and and amongst these years and different incarnations got moved off premise like off off school grounds so that, you know, other people could feel more comfortable coming or something like that. Um, and I think when I [00:03:30] got involved with the facilitating it, um, had it just kind of started up again, or yeah, at that point in time, Whatever year that was around, then I was facilitating that group along with, um Brendan. Go. Yeah. Cool. Um, so why did you form transform? Well, I guess schools out was mostly young, queer people who didn't feel like they were particularly [00:04:00] questioning the gender. It was more about sexuality and sexual orientation. Um, and it felt like, Yeah, I guess it felt like the trans stuff felt a bit different than your standard Kind of, you know, um, L GB kind of, you know, after school support group or after school Social group. Even so, I think Transform got set up as, um, more of a support group. Whereas [00:04:30] schools out at that time, I don't know what it's like now was totally a support group, but it was also very, very social. So I mean, I think we probably did do some support, but the large yeah, felt like schools out was very largely about, you know, young people meeting up with each other. And we have just have quite a bit of fun and, you know, do social things and kind of hang out. And that was less supporting and less talking about the issues seriously as [00:05:00] opposed to just, you know, hanging out. So I think transform. We realised we thought maybe there would be a need for for having a specific kind of trans space. Um, trans group for young people as well as, um, yeah. To be more kind of support focused. I mean, potentially at the time we were getting more inquiries. Or maybe there was some kind of external driver where someone was like, Hey, you I should set up a transport group, but yeah, [00:05:30] just kind of can't really remember. Yeah. Do you want to explain a little bit more? Why there was that, like, um, why there was the different need for Trans group, Like a square group. Like what? The difference was between the needs of those two. Um, yeah, I. I don't know about everybody else, but I feel like for me. So for me at the time, I wasn't. Wasn't out as Trans or I didn't think I was trans at [00:06:00] that stage. I think I was maybe identifying as gender queer. Um, and that didn't feel yeah. Being trans didn't feel so pressing for me at that stage. I mean, it did not long after, but, um yeah, I guess the difference for me was around. Hm. Maybe visibility stuff. So it seemed like people did know what gay was, and people did know what lesbian was and bisexual and that, um [00:06:30] those things were not kind of accepted, Accepted were kind of known about and maybe a little bit more readily accepted. And the Trans felt, um I guess new or newer in regards to yeah, discussions and groups and visibility and, um, teachers struggling with it in in schools. Or, um, [00:07:00] because also in my role, um, with Wellington Gay Welfare Group was Yeah, just, I guess, supporting parents and chatting to to schools and other kind of groups, you know? And it seemed like they had had a decent handle on, um, queer stuff or gay stuff and lesbian stuff, as in people knew what it was. And they were like, Oh, OK, kind of thing. Where? Yeah, it seemed like there was a lot more confusion, a lot more questions, [00:07:30] Um, and just needing people needing and wanting more information around being Trans, I think, were there many other trans groups, uh, similar to this one around before transform or I have no idea. I'm sure they were, but, um, I yeah, I don't think there was a group for young trans people at the time, which was probably why we set one up. Yeah. [00:08:00] Oh, wow. So what were the, um, aims of transform? What did you want to achieve with the group? I think for me, I think it was just simply having a support space. And I think that, um when you often when you create a good, solid space for people to be in and come to they come to it and often do the support work, you know, with each other and with themselves, as long as the space is kind of facilitated [00:08:30] and held Well, so in a way, yeah. It was just making a space for people to come. Yeah. So what kind of activities did you do? Oh, I'm trying to think, um, I think I don't even know how often we were meeting at that stage. Maybe it was once every couple of weeks, um, schools out me every week, and I think transform didn't meet as frequently as that. Maybe it was once, once a month. Maybe [00:09:00] it was once a fortnight. I'm not quite sure. Um, we do. Yeah, People felt it. It felt like people were a lot more shy. And so we had to do way more icebreakers of which I have a love hate relationship with icebreakers. But, yeah, schools. That seems to be really lots of, you know, it was really boisterous, and, um, people weren't shy. Well, I'm sure people were, but a lot of people weren't shy as schools out, whereas transform people seemed Yeah. [00:09:30] Why do you think that people were, um I guess for me thinking about being trans and coming out of Trans as Trans was a lot harder, and I had to do a lot more thinking about it, Maybe because there was less visibility. Whereas at that time, being a queer woman, I felt like there was a fair bit of visibility, so I couldn't I could I could see it in kind of, you know, subcultural pop culture and be like, [00:10:00] Yeah, that's me. No, I'm a butch woman. I'm a queer woman. Cool. You know, and the beef comes from other people being eggs. Um, as opposed to mean potentially questioning anything. Um, and I think with the trans stuff. I was for me. There's there was it just seemed like it wasn't as visible. And so I couldn't look at a television programme or a magazine [00:10:30] or some kind of pop cultural reference and be like, Oh, oh, right. I'm trying, OK? Yeah. So maybe it felt more, um, I don't know, complex or trying or whatever. Yeah. And I think, um, did we talk lots about? We didn't talk a whole heap about medical staff, but I, I suppose because there can be a a medical aspect to being Trans. Um, [00:11:00] and that is hard to access, I guess. Or it can be a stressful thing to access that That's another cause of, you know, concern or stress or whatever in a way that, you know, maybe coming out as gay or lesbian isn't you know? So, yeah, I'm not Yeah, I'm not sure. How many members did you have at the start? Oh, it really varied. So sometimes we'd have, you know, just half a dozen people. [00:11:30] Sometimes it'd be Yeah, you know, 15, 20 people. And so it kind of quite varied. What did we do? So we did ice breakers. We had chats about different things. Um, sometimes we'd have topics. Maybe that we talk about, um Do we get speakers in? Yeah, I think maybe we got speakers in. Maybe we did social things. I can't really remember it all very, very, very sorry. No, don't apologise. Um, I was wondering, [00:12:00] uh, how did you, like, um, reach out to, like, get more members? Hm? That's a good question. We had posters. I'm not sure where we put them, but if we had them, we must have put them somewhere. Oh, yes, we actually. Oh, maybe one year, someone gave us a whole lot of envelopes, like postage paid envelopes. Um, and we posted them out to most of the schools, probably in Wellington. I think that we had contacts with, uh, lots of guidance [00:12:30] counsellors. So either there was people who knew guidance counsellors in schools or we just had a big email list and we were in touch with. Yeah, a few kind of support staff and counsellors around Wellington schools. So I think we probably told them about the group. Um, are they called youth one stop shops or something like that? Kind of like evolve or vibe out in the hut, and so we let them know. I think we already had a lot of schools out contacts with a lot [00:13:00] of schools and, um, like youth services and that kind of thing. So we probably said, Oh, you know how we've got schools out? We've also got a group for trans people as well. You know, young trans queer people as well. So yeah, that's probably how it got out. And maybe, I mean, Brooklyn did more of the social media stuff, so maybe she did some tech savvy kind of thing. Um, so it's, um I feel like there's two ways to phrase [00:13:30] the question, but why did you feel that transform was important? Um, like for you personally, I guess in a way of setting up a support group. You you know, maybe I was setting up a support group for myself as well. So that was probably really helpful for me. I remember it also being around the time there was. I mean, I think inside out and Tabby still run a whole lot of what are they called? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's got a name, but I can't [00:14:00] remember the name shift. That's right. And I think before shift or round shift or concurrently with shift there was and there was and there was just a few other funny names of other things. But yeah, I think they were kind of regular or semi regular. Um, you know, que que trains or queer youth camps. Um and yeah, they often had different forum, of which things were talked about. So I remember [00:14:30] I remember going to a trans Or maybe I don't know if it was a trans one, but it was, you know, kind of like a Trans one and being like, crying and, you know, Yeah. And so, um, and I guess just coming to terms with being trans and being like, Oh, do I have to come out again? It sucks. Yeah. So I remember it being, you know, clumped around that whole time. So I think it was really useful for me to be kind of [00:15:00] officially, you know, helping facilitate a group. But also it being something that I needed and being able to, um, have contact with other young people and chat with them as well. Yeah, because how old were you then? when you first got involved? Um, I'm 37 now, so I guess I would have been, you know, if it was 10 years ago, I would have been 27 and I transitioned when I was 28. So, yeah, I would have totally been the precursor to transitioning. Um and [00:15:30] why do you feel that transform was important, Just like generally as something for the community, if you feel it was important, I mean, I guess it is. I hope that one day it doesn't have to exist because there's so much kind of support in people's everyday lives and school communities and families that you know. But for now, I think it's important because yeah, there's still a shit tonne of prejudice and bigotry and then just kind of plain [00:16:00] old misunderstanding. Um, that is around out there. And so if there's something that you know your floundering school counsellor or you're worried, you know, parent or your confused teacher can be like, um well, there's this group. How about you go to that? Then? I think that's a good resource and a good kind of conversation starter. And yeah, um, were there any particularly memorable events or [00:16:30] moments that you can recall from? No, not really. Oh, it was so long ago. How long were you involved with it? I didn't even know. I don't think I was involved for long. I was only with Wellington Gay Welfare Group for a couple of years, so might have only been a year with transform. Um, so reflecting back. What do you feel that, um, the group has achieved in the last 10 [00:17:00] years? I haven't really kept track of the group at all, but it feels like for queer and trans youth, the infrastructure is way, way, way more solid. So there seems to be, um, yeah, it doesn't seem to be an informal group that's sitting around and the people change and, you know, it seems to be I. I don't know quite how the structure is set up now, but it seems to be that there's way more funding. There's way more awareness [00:17:30] and the groups are connected not just kind of locally and regionally, but nationally as well. Um, and that could just be my perception for seeing things on social media, but it does feel like, Yeah, there's, um, lots more training involved um, and lots more supervision. Um, which I think is really, really good. Yeah. And, um, my last question for you is is, uh how do you think things have changed for trans youth in the past 10 [00:18:00] years? Oh, I'm not really sure. I hope that there's been more support in schools, more education in schools around it. Um, I know there's been stuff happening at kind of government, level around rights, stuff and education stuff and health stuff. Um, so I think it's all kind of ticking along nicely and how that plays out, actually, on the ground in a young trans person's life. [00:18:30] I, I you know, I don't know. I hope it's better, but I suspect it. Sometimes it's not, but yeah, but I guess, yeah, it seems it feels like there's a bunch more support and infrastructure and hopefully information and knowledge out there. What about, um, because you were talking a lot about visibility before? Do you feel that there's more visibility and is it a helpful visibility or do you feel that is, or maybe not helpful visibility? But the visibility that we have [00:19:00] is it helpful or it feels like there's more visibility publicly, Um, with celebrities and that kind of thing and whether it's visibility or scrutiny, I think is another thing, and and how visibility can lead to yeah, people being unsafe, Um, and to more open prejudice. I don't know. [00:19:30] I think that yeah, visibility is quite a fraught what's assumed to be quite a simple, positive thing, and I think it's can be a little bit more fraught and, um, almost paradoxical or contradictory than that. So, yeah, in what ways do you mean that it's fraught or well, I guess there's lots of ways in which trans people and queer people are extremely visible, and it means that their bodies and our bodies are made unsafe because of that visibility. [00:20:00] So I think if you want to talk about visibility without talking about social change without talking about, you know, bigotry and prejudice and violence and homophobia and transphobia, then you have to yeah, be like, well, does visibility. You know, What does visibility mean in a homophobic transphobic society? You know, whether that's online or whether that's, you know, on the street or in workplaces [00:20:30] or in schools. Yeah. How how does visibility? Yeah, What does that actually mean? You know, for people's bodies.
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