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Well, my name is Allie Waterson. And, um, I want to say something about my name Waterson because that's a name I chose. I, um I chose that name in 1983. Um and that was part of not wanting to continue on the patriarchal heritage of my father's line. And, um, I I don't know how I actually chose a name. It sort of came to me. I think I might have read an American [00:00:30] magazine and, you know, with Native American names in it. And it was a name that was in there, but, um because my, um the name that I'd grown up with was Allie Watkins. Um, and my friends, um, in the mountain nearing community used to call me or something like that. I wanted to keep that initial WAT and water song. Um, [00:01:00] just seemed to be the right name because I love water and I'm a cancer. So I'm a water sign and I'm a musician and I sing so water song and my Maori friends call me a And, um I've I grew up. I was born in Christchurch and I grew up in Christchurch. Um, I have lived at Mount cook for sort of nine or 10 years in the [00:01:30] 19 seventies, so I don't know a lot about the Christchurch gay lesbian scene. LBG LGBT scene in the seventies Um, I, um, fell in love with a woman in 1979 and thought I just happened to have fallen in love with a woman. And then, um, a bit later, I fell in love with another woman, and so I thought interesting. And so then I started. [00:02:00] Um, try exploring the lesbian scene in Christchurch. I've moved back to Christchurch by then and, um would go to women's dances. And, uh, there were, um, regular women's dances happening in the eighties. Um, I don't know how often they happen, but and I guess it was one of the few social things that happened. So, you know, there were lots of women who would come along to them. Um, To begin with, I would just go for about 10 minutes and then [00:02:30] run away again. And then gradually, I, um, built up my confidence. The other thing that was happening in Christchurch then that was of the social, um, side was the, um, Lambda Coffee house. And, um, Thursday nights was lesbian night, and so I'd go along to Lambda, um, and try to meet some other lesbians and to begin with, you know, I felt quite discouraged because, you know, [00:03:00] the only people I would meet with people that the only thing we had in common was that we are lesbians. I didn't meet any other kindred spirits. Really? So it took a wee while before I sort of found my, um I guess my people within the lesbian community. Um, what I remember about the eighties was a time a time of, um once I got involved in the lesbian community, there was a time of, [00:03:30] um What? Um well, I was thinking about, you know, lesbian summer camp. We had a lot of, um we had I think the first lesbian summer camp was in 1984 and we had a camp out at, um um, every summer, and women from all over New Zealand would come or, you know, lots from the south Island and a few from the north island. And, um, [00:04:00] we ran those for I was on part of the organising committee and we ran those for about four or five years. Five or six years. And he had all sorts of workshops there. All sorts of, um, swimming in the river. Um, I mean, they were fantastic events. Really? So that was a big part of, um, that was, you know, a sort of a big part of the social year, I suppose, Um, there was a lot of, [00:04:30] um, you know, a music group. Oh, yes, I was in. I was in a, um, regulation bloomers, which was a a group of four of us were a band. I was the only lesbian in the group at that stage. But then after after we split up, one of the others came out as well that we were together for 10 years, and we played at a lot of different, um, events that were, you know, had a a social protest type sort of agenda. [00:05:00] I suppose so. You know, um, and we played women's music, so we played a lot of Holly Neer songs and Chris Williamson songs, and so, um, um, songs with a with a a social message. I remember being very active in 1986 with the homosexual law reform bill. And remember going on many marches in that time and going to church services and being [00:05:30] told I love you, but not your act to go to that dreadful meeting. Where? Where did you come to that awful meeting where we were surrounded by them. You know, we thought this is a crazy thing to do. Why do we? Why do we do this? You know why did we You know, I mean, it was fun at the time, but you walk out and shit. So what about your time in Christchurch? Um, I. I came. [00:06:00] I came to Christchurch about 1978 I think 78. Yeah, from Dunedin. And I've been living with a guy down there, but I also got involved in the women's refuge down there. Um and that's where I found. That's why I first fell in love with a woman. And we thought we were the only two lesbians in Dunedin. Of course, because we didn't see any others anyway, you know? So that didn't I mean, she was also married with a whole string of little kids. So [00:06:30] it was that didn't sort of go anywhere. So so then I came to Christchurch and I still really hadn't come out because I was still expecting the boyfriend would come after me and he didn't. And and then I sort of had lots of affairs with lots of different people, but and gradually sort of edging myself more towards the women, you know? And that was I remember the women's dances. I remember going to Well, that's where we met was at a woman's dance. Was it because I remember I remember meeting you [00:07:00] Woman's Health Day? Yeah, and it was a woman's, uh, sort of festival. And you were sitting there on the lawn at the, um, in the art centre, Had a big guitar. I think you still had long hair at that stage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And And she smiled and I thought with a nice smile, and he said, Just remember that we should have been friends ever since, you know, and we would never lovers. But we've always been friends, [00:07:30] and, um, to is a a wonderful dancer and she brings out the dancer and me and we've we've danced together lots, and but that's one of the things I remember. I mean, that's why I thought it was a the dance because I remember as part of that women's festival there was a dance, and I remember being upstairs in the in the old um University common room. And, um, you had a long flowing skirt around and we had this great dance together because [00:08:00] I remember I remember the woman's dances. They were sort of quite sort of smoky and and dark as well. They're always in the in the art centre, somewhere in in a pokey little room, and I'd come to the door and I knew I was involved with the women's refuge at that stage because I come down to the Christchurch one and there were a couple of dikes in that and they said, Oh, you must come to the woman's downstairs So that was that felt safe, that they said, I can go. Well, I got somebody I'll get to the door and I think, Where the hell are they? You know, and I look around and I try and find them because I wouldn't be too scared to go in by myself, [00:08:30] but they'd always come up. But I remember the the pressure on um, like everybody was in shirts and trousers like the pressure on women to not be me because I was fairly. I remember, um, an McGugan. She had a long, long when she came out. She's younger than us. But she had a long, long hair down to her waist that she tied in the Platt and she refused to. She came out. She refused to cut it off. It's not [00:09:00] that she didn't want to cut it off, but she didn't want to be pressured to cut it off. So you had to really fight your way into the lesbian community. It felt to me you really had to want to be there and like we did, it was quite a fighty time. That's not a bad thing. It it cut off in the end. But I liked how she fought to say that yeah, and he had to fight to wear a dress as well. That was a big fight, and there was quite a quite [00:09:30] a anti boy feeling. And the irony was that so many lesbians had boy Children. Do you remember Street like we bought in the eighties late eighties? I think about four of us bought a big, big, big house together, collectively And I think at that point we noticed that all the folk who had Children I think it's only Alison Ason who didn't have boys, you know, like these radical lesbian separatist feminist women who had boys, which is, [00:10:00] um, which was hard for them. Where did that come from? That it was because we were feminist as well as it wasn't just a coming out to a sexual identity. It was a rebellion against the whole patriarchal society. Well, it was very strong, you know, And the radical. I mean, I never was, you know, separatist, radical, separatist, lesbian. But a lot of my [00:10:30] friends and peers were and, um so there was, you know, it was quite a strong political, um, kind of claiming, you know, putting your claim in the sand, sort of, um, about, you know, forming sort of lesbian only community and lesbian nation. There was a series of, um, big women's, uh, gatherings in the seventies. It's about three of them, I think three or four of them, [00:11:00] and gradually the lesbian separatists became a strong and stronger group within that. And it's like it's like any separatism. It's like sort of wanting to really concentrate the ideas and do things completely differently. It's like there's a whole lot of saying like, You know, I'm not a woman, I'm a lesbian. It's a different way of being female. It's like these I am woman giving birth to myself. There's a lot of feeling that we want to do things utterly differently. We want to, um [00:11:30] we don't want to treat the world like men have treated it. So it was It was very much of a like me. I mean, it was very idealistic, you know? I mean, we we, um But we learned a hell of a lot from it, and we wouldn't have, You know? I mean, like, this is years before LGBT community. But, you know, there was lesbians and gay men, and we would [00:12:00] see ourselves as being totally separate to gay men. You know, sort of, um was pretty much a thing until the civil rights to the civil. That's when we first came together. I think so. This was around the the homosexual law reform. And so why was kind of lesbian energy put into something like the homosexual law reform? Do you think there was debate whether we should, because it's like the marriage [00:12:30] thing. It's like Who would want to get married? Marriage is a crap institution, so it's quite a different scene from today, you know? And there was a lot of there was a lot of other, um, a lot of other debates going on. The Maori debate was going on. We fiercely debate that in the lesbian scene there was a lot of debate around environmental stuff, you know, a lot of those. It was hugely fundamentalist. There was a lot of challenging of, You know, you're doing this and [00:13:00] you're doing that and which is good. But a lot of lesbians were in, you know, anti-racism movement. They were you know, they are often, you know, like radical and all, you know, peace, movement, environmental movement, of anti racist movement. So one of the one of the groups I got involved in the eighties was a peace group, a women's peace group. So we're very much doing things just with women, partly because of the the strength it gave you. [00:13:30] I. I know when we bought when we bought that big house together and it was just a woman's house, women's and kids' house and my brother came over from Australia who had seen for quite a few years and with his new girlfriend and sort of wanted to stay there. And I had to say, Well, I'm sorry, you can come and have a cup of tea but you can't stay here And he was horrified and it's like and in some ways it is. It's quite uncivil and some ways for me as a sort of timid, um, a timid woman. It was very good to stand up to my big brother and say, [00:14:00] Actually, no. So a lot of it was to do with strengthening ourselves. I think a lot of it was, um, things that was very useful to do. I think where did that strengthening come from? I mean, where did that kind of groundswell of energy come from? It was it was an exhilarating time. I remember going to the first women's conference when I was a little straight woman, little straight young, 24 year old or something, and it was in Wellington and it was very, very wet and it was in this great big sort of show ground [00:14:30] building, you know, and there was thousands of women there, and they were sitting around having exciting conversations about taboo subjects like like periods and stuff like that. You know, it's like, and and consciousness raising groups like, How is it with you and your boyfriend? Well, I you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is how I'm This is how I'm fighting over the house work or I can't you know, I can't get a decent job or whatever. Why? [00:15:00] Why are these guys earning more than me? So there's a lot of speaking bitterness and a lot of excitement, and a lot of let's do it differently. And in some ways it's like when you're when you find you. I think that that that's one of those things. I had a huge yearning, you know, like I had. I find it easy to relate to boys to the men, but I never had such a yearning to be with the women as I had, And so it was [00:15:30] moving more and more and more towards that to try and find that that's what it was. And it's very exciting when you do so. It's like you just want to maximise it, maximise it Yeah, I think. Sorry, I'm going on. But the summer camps were so delicious because they were a whole week, um, in this idyllic spot and everybody was half naked all the time. And it's like there there's a stream and there's there's [00:16:00] all these sort of half naked women or naked women and kids. So just sitting about, you know, it was idyllic, actually. And a great feeling of security and comfort. Yeah, perhaps, um, you know, something that might, you know, help to give you an idea of what it was like is that for three years in a row, I went to the Michigan Women's Music Festival. So 1989 1990 1991. And I worked on the festival for six weeks, setting [00:16:30] up the festival, and it's probably about 100 and 50 women who came on the land to set up the festival. And then at the end of the festival, we take it down again. And the majority of those women were lesbians. And it was my first experience of being in a majority culture, you know, And it was such a strengthening thing to be, um and you know, I mean, there were some straight women there as well. But, you know, we were the majority, and it was such it was such an affirming [00:17:00] thing and such a strengthening thing. So I think that's a bit of an answer to your question. It was about, you know, like in usual society. Well, back then, you know, you you never read anything in the paper about, you know, lesbians or gay men. You know, you never there was There was no mirroring. There was just a complete lack of mirroring, you know, So getting together and finding people who who mirrored you, you know, had some of the same life experiences, you know, And, you know, [00:17:30] um, it's really important. I mean, it's really important for everyone in terms of our identity, you know, not just our sexual identity. It's important for every kid to have mirroring of their life. You know what's what, who they are, so you can form your own identity. And I think I think that's a huge I mean, I think it's, you know, a bit better now, but I think still there's not nearly enough mirroring. But But, you know, at least there are movies sometimes that there's a gay man or a lesbian couple or, you know, there's things on TV. [00:18:00] And But, um, back then there was very little mirroring, and any any media things were usually negative. So, um, I think that strength of being with other lesbians, you know, it just gave you that sense of identity, and it was a very strengthening thing. But I remember how, you know, like, how important it was for me going to Michigan to the music festival and having that experience of being in a majority [00:18:30] culture and, um, you know, yeah, just how different it was. And And I think the summer camps came out of that because two initiators I remember my husband came back from the, um, the green and women's camp, you know, which was anti anti nuclear. Um, sort of sit, sit in protest. It went on for months. Or if not years, in in England. Um, protesting sort of missiles in England, and they came back. That was a very [00:19:00] that was camps, you know, that was actually people were camping. Women, women were camping together, you know, and having a lot of fun. And so we had a few folk well, especially Aspen. I think Alison a couple of but came and they were the ones who sue, who initiated the the women's camp women's camp. They said, Let's do it here and so that that's why we set up women's camps. And I remember feeling when we were organising it, feeling quite anxious about because there had been such a lot of conflict [00:19:30] within the community up to then, you know, we're not conflict, but like a lot of arguing a lot of arguing about what's what's right and what's wrong and blah, blah, blah. And then how the hell are we gonna manage it with all these women all in one place together for a whole week? Oh, my God, what have we done? You know what the beast really unleashed. But in fact, it was lovely because it was We have workshops planned all the time, but it was so laid back I got some beautiful, beautiful photos of of women sitting down in clumps Just [00:20:00] talking, talking, talking, You know, it is lovely and just lazing about Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's Yeah, it it built community. And that's what I felt like is is solidified for me ever since. That's the thing that I've learned where community was built, I think. Yeah, when you hit those gatherings where you had people coming from all over the country, Did you have a sense that, uh, like lesbians were different in Auckland [00:20:30] from Christchurch or Wellington? I mean, were there different kind of energies? Or was it? No, I think we partly swept them off. I remember once somebody gone into the local town to get some milk, some extra milk, and they saw this woman walking along the, you know, hitching a lift. So they stopped, and she was She was a lesbian from Japan. So we took her along with us. You know, it's like there was quite [00:21:00] a hm I didn't I didn't sense there was. And I think probably to the summer camp. There would have been it would have attracted, you know, same type sort of women who had similar values, I suppose, because that's one of the things I learned in the eighties. It was about all the different communities that, um, you know, there's the sporting dikes, and I, you know, didn't know any of them But, you know, they all played softball or cricket or something. And, um but, you know, I remember [00:21:30] going to a party once. I don't know how I got to go there, but and there was a whole group of women I'd never seen before. You know, I thought I knew all the but, you know, Yeah. So, um yeah, so I, I guess in answer to your question was was there much difference with the ones from, say, Auckland or Wellington? I think the ones who would choose to come would probably, you know, be quite similar to they would, you know, they would choose to come because they [00:22:00] had similar values or something. And they were quite travelling. People like, I think a lot of us had. Well, I hadn't much, but my my ex partner has, and they'd travelled all around Europe and England and America, and and they were part of a whole wave of a wash of sort of lesbians. She did that like, especially from Germany. And we often get that's right. And so they'll often be German women at the summer camp. [00:22:30] When you say Antarctic women What What? What do you mean, a house where she, um she's excellent at making friendships. Yeah, she's a great friendship network, centre, centre. And she I don't know how she got to know a lot of the women who went down to Antarctic, so that became a stop off place for all them. And, yeah, there's quite a few dogs they like, um, they go down in October [00:23:00] to Antarctica and work down there for the summer, and then they come back in February, and often they stay around and, you know, in New Zealand for a month or two months. And, um, a significant number of those women who go down to work in Antarctica are lesbian. And so, um, Bronwyn place became the, you know, sort of where the hub where they'd come and, you know, they'd all come and stay. And, um and I'm a tramper and, um, one of my early lovers who's now one of my closest [00:23:30] friends. Um, she was the cousin of Bronwyn. She's Roy's cousin and she was lovers with one of these Antarctic women, and and then I'd meet these Antarctic women. I became lovers with one of them. And then there was just all this intermingling of. Then we go tramping together the whole lot of us. And she did tramping every year. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I remember once at the summer camp, and I wish I'd done it. Now I thought about putting a great big piece of paper out. Everybody put [00:24:00] their names down and then to see the interrelationships, like who slept with who, Whose relationship with whom? And, you know, I'm really interested in that. And, uh, can you talk about relationships and and how, um, how they're so fluid and and so open and, well, I know for me in my thirties, So which is the eighties? It's like, um, you know, I fell in love with a woman, and [00:24:30] as I said, and then that that didn't she was American and that didn't, you know, last very long. Then I fell in love with another woman. She's very good at that. It's her 50th birthday, and people haven't talked about this. So they said, you really just need to say this about Allie and she's had lots of girlfriends, but it was sort of like, um after I kind of I started exploring my sexuality. Um and, um I suppose I had lots of different lovers because, um, it was like [00:25:00] I was doing what I hadn't done fully in my teenage years. It was like I was really, um, playing all that that out. And, um and so I had quite a number of, you know, sort of short term relationships, and and some I don't know, you know, they might last for three months and then something like that and some of those people I'm still friends with and some I'm not, you know, I don't know how that works. You know, just, [00:25:30] um, with with with some of my ex lovers, we've been able to navigate the transition from being lovers to being really good friends and, um, yeah, yeah. And I remember when when I first came out like and I was involved with the women's peace group. And then there was a group of us. Um, I became part of a group that bought some land on on on banks to make a woman's settlement [00:26:00] there farm. But I remember that group. I remember looking back, there was a period when I was had a crush on every single one of them and I really did. And and it's like, Yeah, it's like you saying I replaying stuff because I think before that I I'd not like women much. I felt much more comfortable with men. And I think I if I had an identity, it would be as a sort of some sort of gay man, [00:26:30] you know? But I, I never really took them seriously. The men, they, they they were good mates that I had to sleep with, you know? And then when I got found women, it's like there was a whole process I went through around that time of which is quite AAA life changing process anyway, which was to do with being more accepting of myself or more loving in myself or more loving of of my mother and reconciled with family stuff, [00:27:00] and that went together with loving other women. And it's like each of these women have an aspect I was loving and I was taken into myself or becoming aware of in myself and and accepting it. I remember one of them, for instance, being quite slow and heavy and sort of bovine, and I started really appreciating that in a way that I would have just dismissed because very heady head trip before that. So I was going [00:27:30] through quite a process. And that's where the dancing started, you know, getting much more into your body into my body. And so it was quite a I don't know if you ever seen Michael Palmer's stuff. I remember seeing his. We went to see his his life, history, work that he did. And it was very much like dancing and coming out and coming into yourself. And it was all wrapped together. You know, I, I really could identify with that. So for [00:28:00] me, that's what that was. Yeah. So it's quite a profound thing, actually. It's a very interesting comment you made about not liking women very much. Yeah, I didn't I I Where did that come from? Oh, I think because I'd come from a family where my mom was a bit of a doormat and I was a Tim and little doormat, you know? And I was starting to be less of a doormat. Yeah, I was going through quite a change in my whole emotional self where [00:28:30] I was taking on more responsibility at work and, yeah, like, remake I was remaking myself. And that wasn't just that was from that was using all sorts of things, like psycho drama and I don't know all sorts of things. The things, Yeah, yeah. And it was. What I I'll say about that is is I. I don't think I actively, you know, disliked women, but I, um I sort of thought of myself as one of the boys. [00:29:00] You know, I've always been a tomboy, you know, And I was living when I lived at Mount Cook. I was working for the national park, working as a mountaineer general, and there was two women on the staff of 30 or something and, you know, and I've always been strong and sort of able to do so called boy type things. So, you know, I, I thought of myself as one of the boys, and, um, and even though I had a boyfriend, you know, and we lived together for quite a number of years, um, he was like, my best mate, [00:29:30] But it wasn't. And then I would have affairs with other men that I'd, you know, have a sort of lustful connection with. So it was sort of like you know, with my boyfriend here, who is my best mate and these other men that I feel attracted to. But it wasn't together. And it was when I met my first woman. I fell love with Sue. It was like these things came together, you know? It was for me. It was sort of like the two came together. You know, I really liked her and respected her and [00:30:00] thought she was fantastic. And I felt the sexual passion. And so, um yeah, yeah. What is that? First life like? I mean, I mean, one of the things that's really, really strong for me is the first time I kissed Sue. And, um, it was like, um I'm sorry, you're you're a man. [00:30:30] But, you know, instead of this great big mouth with whiskers all around, there was this just this softness and her skin was so soft. I just remember, you know, like it's still it's one of those just absolute sort of, um, special moments of my life. Really? The first time I kissed, you know, my first woman lover. Something, um I don't know. It was it was a feeling of, like, coming home or something. Just felt completely right. Didn't feel odd at all. [00:31:00] Felt right. And I and I think it's different for me because I remember the first time I was in love with a woman and we didn't do that much. It was in I still with my boyfriend. And one thing that struck me was how she could read my mind all the time. And I realised she was just doing what I would do with the guy. You know, I sort of watch him and see what was what was going on and somebody doing this to me like it was like it was like, Oh, shit. [00:31:30] But I, I think I didn't. Yeah, II. I searched around, actually among the women to find what I was looking for. And I think it was only when I got with Morgan, you know that that I've found it. And that was like it was because I remember when we first went to bed together, and it was like, um, it was our electricity. It was to do with the touching the centre of the universe, you [00:32:00] know, touching the the, um, energy that's inside everything. We we just couldn't keep our hands off each other, and I think she was. She was just very Butch Dyke, and I think I've I've been very attracted to Butch Dykes more than ones, and it took a long time for me realised what I was looking for was somebody who sort of, you know, structure in the world is with the power of a guy. [00:32:30] But you take her home and you get the clothes off and she's this gorgeous woman, you know, it's like she just she just, um she's in a different shape and you can make love to her, you know? So that's that's that was my experience. It's just different because I'm more than you, too. What about language? Because you you were using words like Dyke and Butch. And what kind of was that? The kind of language that was being used in the eighties was, But [00:33:00] is it more, um, problematic? I think it was, and there was quite a there was a whole controversy around taking on those roles because they're just playing out the old heterosexual roles. That's what it felt like. Yeah, but actually, I don't know, I felt I know I. I never feed up [00:33:30] until I was with a woman, you see? And then we would really we really sort of get into it. And she would have pig with a suit on. We got all these balls. We did some wonderful dancing together because she's a natural dancer, right? And she'd be in a tuxedo and you'd be in your Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Like like Ginger Rogers, you know, with high heels and and very tight dress. And it was gorgeous. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah, because I never did that with the guys at all. I don't particularly want to, you know, because [00:34:00] I think I think in the very close days of the fifties and sixties, the Butch Fe thing was quite strong. And then with the feminism in certain circles, it was sort of like what to said about, um, not wanting to, um, ape those heterosexual roles rather than seeing that it's actually, you know, part of lesbian culture. So yeah, you know, because there was a difference, there was, Yeah, there were certain phases in the lesbian world [00:34:30] and there was those I remember going to a an evening one where there were a lot of women who weren't actually closeted, but they weren't sort of on the street sort of protest. He sort of dikes like us, you know, they were quite, um they they they sort of stayed at home and they were quiet and they were more role play, and they're also much more closed down. So that was one [00:35:00] scene and the and the whole Butchie F, the old traditional Butchie film thing. I mean, there was good reason to rebel against it because it's like, um, some of those women did behave like guys in this in the bad sense. You know, they they did boss people around, you know? So there's a lot of conflict around that, too around what is masculinity, What is feminine? What is Butch and fem, You know, what is, um I remember at a a lesbian conference that was that we had at, um in Wellington [00:35:30] in the early nineties that me and went to and I remember 80 dikes in a room debating the question of whether you should What's the pros and cons of allowing somebody who's transgender to come to the Women's Centre or somewhere like that to a lesbian only gathering and like, it was amazing because this whole group of 80 women were thrashing out the pros and cons of each of it [00:36:00] and and some one woman saying, Look, I'm taking testosterone at the moment. What am I you know? And then some young ones And we were about in our forties fifties by then. But there's some young ones twenties there saying, No, we want lesbian only space. We want woman born of women's space because we have nowhere else. You know, there was all these different, and we came away from it because at that stage we weren't at each other's throats so much. We got a bit more sophistication by then. Well, that's great. I mean, that's [00:36:30] still a big issue. It is, um, the Michigan Women's Music Festival. Um, you know, the the policy is is to have, um, the only women born women, um, come to the festival. Um, you know, So it is completely women born women space. Yeah. Yeah. So that's still, you know, an issue in the in the wider lesbian community. What is the difference between, um a group [00:37:00] of 80 women discussing something and a mixed group or a group of men. Are there different energies going on there? It probably would be. It's also a difference in time. I mean, I might have a different response now, you know, it's like we it was of that time partly and the the because I I've become aware that our our his like mine and all our history is different from the history of women. Say who's 20 [00:37:30] now and growing up or who's, you know, the this cohorts of us that have gone through a certain experience. Yeah, so and society's changed. So how people see gays and lesbians has changed a lot. I mean, I was handing out stickers at at the Guy forks for the Green Party thing, and we've got ones that say I only date girls or only date boys. I date people who vote green. So I was heading out to these These Yeah, you want some stickers for these 14 year olds and and this this drop, a little [00:38:00] 14 year old said, I'll take the girls one. You know, it's like it wasn't an issue. It wasn't a major issue. It's like, Wow, that's so nice And I have no idea whether she's what you know, this or that or the other. And it probably doesn't matter. You know, it's like she's stroppy and she's, um, in control of herself and in charge of herself. And, yeah, it's nice. So it's quite a different scene now, but your question about in a group of, you know, sort of 80 women or 80 lesbians discussing something, and [00:38:30] how would it be different to a group of, you know, mixed men and women discussing something, I mean. And maybe back then I mean back. Back then, part of the perception would be that would that men would dominate more or they wouldn't listen so much, you know, and women wouldn't you know. So that's part of the thing of doing women only things, Um, and one reason for doing dyke only things as opposed to mixed women things. [00:39:00] We had debates about that as well, you know, debates about everything. Is that we when when heterosexual women were talking, it's like they got a guy in their head already, But still, it's like they're thinking all the time, about what would the what My boyfriend think that he's saying this and that's who they refer you. You can actually tell that that's who they're referring to. That's who they're talking to. Partly, he's standing next next to you and they're talking to you. So it's like they're not fully there. And that was one that was one craving [00:39:30] that we had to be around. Lesbian only spaces is to be around from, Is we is to see what it's like to do it differently to get the man out of your head. You know? What would we do if we had didn't have the man in our head? The man? Yeah, I haven't. She'd been so wrapped in her own community. I haven't even thought about how it might be for gay men, transgender people in terms of those sorts of things. But it's interesting. [00:40:00] It's interesting. When it came together for the the homosexual law reform, how was that in the in the Canterbury region? First time I'd ever done any working or I didn't do much. I just went along. I didn't I didn't, you know, go to any of the the meeting, you know, like the kind of planning meetings. But I'd go along to all the protests and things so um, and a lot of yeah, a lot of lesbians who, you know, were pretty radical separatist lesbians. Um, [00:40:30] were would, you know, were really willing to put their energy into fighting for this. I think it was sort of like seeing what the guys need because they were the criminalised group. So it was like working with the boys. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it was like, Well, you know, if you know, even though it's not criminal for women to be sexual with other women, um, it could very easily be, you know, [00:41:00] um, and I had I'd started to have more contact with gay men because when I was in my partner, Morgan, she was living down in South Canterbury and because it's such a tiny place down there, she she and the gay guys down there, we got together and there's a South Canterbury gay and lesbian group, so I'd meet gay guys there, and that was that was fascinating because, like, we'd have parties and evenings and I'd never been around men joking about sex before, and it's like they have these [00:41:30] really rude jokes about sex. They're totally non offensive, you know, It was so nice. Yeah, that was That was, I suppose what shifted for me in that sense? Yeah. So how out could you be in the mid eighties in the Canterbury region? In terms of like, I mean, could you walk down the street holding hands? Could I mean, were you discriminated against in any way? I don't I don't think so. [00:42:00] Occasionally, if you wore your hair too short, you would get mistaken for a boy. You know, if you were like, sort of 40 year old woman, it can be quite interesting. But, I mean, it wasn't a major thing like in in the early nineties. I. I bought a small holding with my partner and went to live out in the country and a slightly different slightly later, but And when we were looking for it, um, I never [00:42:30] came across bridges from, say, the real estate agents. What you What we need to do, though, is to say, my partner and I she blah, blah, blah, blah. So they didn't put their foot in it and say, your husband before they had, you know, it's like they didn't want to be you. You tried to avoid those sort of things, but nobody was offensive in that sense. I remember the the hay contractor. He'd come and and cut the hay several times. And he still sent the bill to Mr [00:43:00] Mr SI. Think he was talking to somewhere, you know, he'd come in for lots of cups of tea. What else is his wife doing it? But I, I didn't experience any prejudice at all, Actually, in that sense, it it's more. What was interesting at work is, though, they'd be very accepting on me having a female partner. But what they would find alien was that I was part of a community. [00:43:30] They'd have no idea that I was part of a community. And that made a difference to how I saw things. Yeah, and I didn't think to them. I mean, and that's interesting, because I just yesterday and the day before I went to my school reunion. 50 years on, um, so 50 years on from when we were in the third form and, um, they are just about I don't know how many women were there. This is You know, all of all of that class is about 100 I suppose, And most of them have got, [00:44:00] you know, husbands, partners and Children and, you know, three or four haven't. I didn't spot any other dykes, dear, but, um, yeah, um, you know, like someone um said about or asked me something about, you know, my partner and said he and I said, you know, so you know, this sort of that assumption. Still, Um, um, [00:44:30] but but something else. One place where, um I've been very involved in psycho drama. And, um and I started in the mid eighties doing psychodrama, and I started going to psychodrama workshops. Um, And I remember at one point, um, on a a mixed psychodrama workshop, me saying something about being a lesbian and this other person who was in a training capacity, [00:45:00] Um said, Oh, why do you have to use a label like that? You know, and and, um, sort of did my best to kind of say, Well, it's important to me. This is my identity. But one of the things that was really important for us in the eighties was, um, uh, a psycho dramatist in Wellington, Kay Rosal came down and ran lesbian only psychodrama, and that again was a really strengthening thing [00:45:30] for me, so we'd have lesbian only psychodrama and do a lot of experiential psycho drama. And then I could go to training workshops which were mixed and, um, sort of feel supported by my sort of lesbian psychodrama community. And Kay and her partner, Anna, had had done a lot of work workshops with, um, you know, the the sort of the main trainers from Australia and New Zealand. And, um, and it really sort of forged the way [00:46:00] for, um, lesbians and psycho drama. And so, in the psycho drama community, there's actually a really high percentage of lesbians, you know, I go to a psycho drama workshop and there's, you know, at least a third, usually in every workshop. Just pretty amazing, really. And and, you know, few gay men, but not many gay men. But so, um, I think it was a really great thing to have, and that that was the strength of having lesbian only things [00:46:30] happening, which for me gave me that strength to go into the straight community. And, um, yeah, can you just describe what psycho drama is? Um, well, it's a drama of the psyche. The theatre of our internal world. And it's a method whereby we do things, um, in action and experientially and, um, choose people or objects to [00:47:00] represent different aspects of your inner world. And it's used in therapeutic in a therapeutic way, and it's also used in organisational development. Or it's used in education as well. But it's it's a, um instead of just talking about stuff, um, you know, like all the things I've been talking about, I could, you know, set things out, you know? So it's a visual method as well, you know, And it's an experiential method. And because of that way of working [00:47:30] it, um, assist people to get much more conscious of some of the things you know that are more that are more unconscious, I guess, because we, um And the whole purpose of it is to to develop, um, new roles that are more adequate to the situation you're in and, um, develop your spontaneity and creativity. Life. I'd have to demonstrate. Excuse [00:48:00] me. Well, here's a big question. I'm just wondering, do you think it's easier now for somebody coming out? Uh, I mean, in your kind of counselling role. Do you think it's easier for somebody to come out now or than than, say, 2030 years ago. I think theoretic letters. But I think, um, each person, you know, I think like, I'm just thinking about a client I saw last year who was coming out, and she was really struggling with [00:48:30] it, you know, and, you know, struggling to find other lesbians. And I, you know, I gave her some clues about places to go. Go and, um and she was really scared of her, you know, family and friends judging her. So I think that yeah. So I think it probably depends on the person. It depends on the community and what your family is like. You know, [00:49:00] I don't know anymore. Yeah, So, theoretically, I think it should be easier because, you know, it's there's a lot more mirroring in the media and, you know, you know, it's not such a big thing. There's lots of celebrities who are gay, you know, sort of, um but I think individually people still struggle with it, and yeah, and there's [00:49:30] not many images of butch women, actually, you know, like when you think of the television, the lesbians on television, they're all pretty and lipstick, lipstick, lesbians, you know. So for a butch young butch coming out, there's not much. There's not much if you, you know, if you don't look a bit finny, why do you think it is? I think it's still taboo. I think it's the idea of women not looking pretty not looking. You [00:50:00] know, looking strong and masculine is not OK threatening. Yeah, it's Yeah, a lot of a lot of straight guys still are challenged by the idea that a woman might be, but they're not bothered by finny ones. They're bothered by the others. Yeah, and it's like it's almost like a it's It's like a challenge. They want to attack, you know? And I think it's probably the same, you [00:50:30] know, like for gay men, you know, if they're particularly, you know, feminine, particularly kids. You know, I think they you know, it's a bit easier, but, you know, But I think you know, um, you know, if a gay man is, you know, not particularly sort of camp in their way of dressing and their way of being, they'll be more accepted, you know, as long as you can, because it's that fear of difference, you know, and, [00:51:00] um hm. And it's sort of like in some ways, easier and harder, because it's like there's so much more overt acceptance in one level. But there's also like when we came out, we came. Like I said, we fought our way into a community, and once you're in there, you're in there, you know and you. So there's more validating of you. Whereas there's nowhere for those young folk to fight their way into, there's no fences to cross anymore. [00:51:30] So where do they go? So it isn't more groping around, and you're lucky if you find yeah, and it probably is easier in some ways. And I don't really know that many young lesbians, I suppose, how big a part of your life is lesbianism? Yeah, it's It's I'm not so involved in so many cutie things as [00:52:00] I was, because it doesn't feel like as much of a community there, not the dancers or the socialising so much. And I'm I'm more involved in things like the Green Party and stuff like that, and the dancing is, um, and playback. We were both involved in Playback Theatre, and that was mixed so over the years, I've gotten more involved in mixed things. But it feels like it's when I think about, um it's like this thing about housing, [00:52:30] you know, And I I got a house that might be flood prone now, so I think I might lose half my equity in it. You know, possibly in the future where it just felt like, um, build my house, I'd be in the rest of my life sort of thing. But then I thought, Well, if if that happens, I could buy a, um uh, a camper van and or a, uh a house truck and I would go and park [00:53:00] up and I could when I thought about the people I park up with my dike friends from way back, you see, and we've taught in the past an old home. But some places, like a bunch of old dikes, you know, and you know, is probably another one, isn't it? And and it feels like and it's because of these links, which are from where, in the past we might not even have that much contact. But it feels they're still [00:53:30] strong enough to be able to say, Can I come and live here for six months. Can I come and live with you? Full stop. Like I have a friend on the West Coast. I have a friend on the West Coast where I went to work over there about six years ago and the one of the, um, one of the clinical managers and where I was working was a woman I hadn't seen since she was about 19. And she's a professionally trained And I didn't even recognise her until she came and said, [00:54:00] Would you like to, you know, come and have tea with us and and so on, maybe stay the night. I thought, that's a bit sort of forward, you know? And then I recognised this young woman who was 19, who was in the peace group together. And so I got really close with her and her partner. So after all these years, they they feel like family because I was staying with them while I was over on the coast, commuting with it back and forth. And so her partner, I. I feel quite strongly, um, linked to even though, and it's partly because of that long, [00:54:30] long standing connection. So she's somebody I could go and stay with. So in some ways it's there. In some ways, it's attenuated, you know? It's it's funny. Yeah, you know, and I'm the same. I'm not so involved in, in, you know, lesbian activities. Um, um, but, you know, my partner lives in Wellington and I go up there, she comes down here and, um, [00:55:00] I know it's it's sort of a core of me, but I'm involved in, like, my main, you know, community now is my psycho drama community, you know, And, um um, yeah, it comes at sometimes it comes out in things like funerals. I remember we go to a funeral, maybe Noreen's funeral, and that was an old older dyke. And she she was very strong in the women's spirituality movement. [00:55:30] So she had really clear instructions about what she did at her funeral. And she got the woman's the woman's mysteries group to come and do it for her, you know, which is sort of mixed heterosexual type group, but they're very good at what they do, and they head in this big hall, and it felt like a really lovely celebration of a lesbian life, and I think that's important for all of us. You know that we do these ceremonies really well. So those things, I suppose, as we get older, it's a death [00:56:00] more else now that come up with some marriages, I guess. But mostly it's death, I guess, funerals. But it's like really important that they're done well. And that's an affirming. And hopefully that would be something for young people you mentioned just before about your house and and it's possibly prone to flooding now. Was that because of the the the Earthquakes? How was it for you guys for the the Earthquakes in 2010 and 2011? [00:56:30] Um, II I was my house didn't get much damage at all. It's just a little tiny cottage. It sort of bounces up and down on the on the sand dunes, you know, and it was just an amazing experience to live through, basically, and I and I was on the coast at the time on the West Coast, and I live with my brother, my older brother, who's come to live with me. So it was a matter of making sure he was safe. I know in our street we've got a couple of dikes [00:57:00] at the end of our street who became like camp mother of, you know, of the of the street. You know, they really did, because they're very, very community focused. So and there's also Matt, who's a gay guy who's down the bottom street now. So it feels like there's a strong gay and lesbian community around there. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I, I wasn't very badly affected. I was lucky not to be badly affected in any sort of way. Really, apart from this, [00:57:30] you know, And and so in some ways, I could appreciate the earthquakes for the positive stuff, which is, um, there's a whole lot of stuff. I mean, it's the I feel so much closer to the earth, Quite literally. You know, like you. You feel it moving around. You notice how it changes I. I walk around with the dogs a lot, and I just see how everything is shifting and changing. And you can literally feel it sometimes if it sort of comes while you're walking around. And, um, I've never felt frightened [00:58:00] in my house. And the other thing is the difference in, um the in how people are, they're much less. A lot of people talk about being less material, less interesting, material things we have. We have garage sales for the Green Party. We we make make hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of dollars in garage sales because people just giving stuff away and they come back and sort of around it and get other stuff. And then they put it. They're much more casual [00:58:30] about stuff, I think now and yeah, so that's that sense and the sense of the I'm in New Brighton, which has been quite a knocked around community. So there's also, I think now, a feeling of weariness and cynicism and despair in the community, I think, and that's that's starting to take hold now. And I'm starting to experience that because I think people are feeling the same way I am, which is this whole area [00:59:00] is under threat of flooding and desolation, basically, and that's in the next 10 30 years. Probably who knows what will happen to it might have underwater completely. Yeah, and I live in Littleton and I was here for the September quake. But for the February 1 I was actually camping up in, um so I wasn't here for that. But, um, Littleton, um, sort of [00:59:30] did an amazing sort of thing in terms of community getting, um, looking after each other like I'm a member of the time bank there. And the time bank coordinator at that time organised basically did the civil defence stuff and then organised, You know, people to check on old people and or just organised everything and and I I found out, You know, once I could get back to being able to email, I stayed away for an extra week because they said, don't come back because, you know, it's not with with it, but, [01:00:00] um, I found somebody who I could They they helped me find someone who would go and feed my cat and feed my chooks and, um, you know, sort of check up on things, and, um And when I came back, there was there was, um, a whole lot of community involvement things, and I got a bit involved in some of those things, like, you know, making hearts, sitting down on the street corner and sewing hearts for people. Um, you know, and you know, they'd [01:00:30] come along and you get them involved in making a heart, and then you have a bit of a chat about how their house was and all that. But personally, I was I mean, I live in a little wooden cottage, and it just built on rock, and it just flexes with the earthquake. And so, um, you know, I've been very lucky. I've got some very minor cosmetic damage that maybe they'll fix in 2016 or something, but who knows? But, um, [01:01:00] and that community feel in Littleton is still very strongly there together. I think you I think you I found that in the Brighton area, too. I, like the pharmacist had to give up because his shop got damaged and they had a huge, great farewell for him, you know, and things like that. It it's, uh, you Do you feel the strength of the community? So there's been some quite magical things. I remember going to a performance of Macbeth [01:01:30] in Littleton, and it's in the main. They on the main street. They had it in a, you know, one of the broken down. And now it was just no, because that was demolished. And it was so they play it outside. They had the the audience under a sort of thing and had great big braziers to keep people warm. And the actor playing out in this sort of demolition area is amazing, rising up from pools of mud [01:02:00] and things like that. Just just so a lot of interesting things have happened, and I mean generally, in Christchurch, a lot of you know, really creative things have happened, like the gap filler and the green rubbles, things that you know. They've organised the pellet pavilion where they have concerts and the, you know, markets and things. And they they have, you know, a dance I met where you can go and take your own music and plug it in and dance. And there's all sorts of, you know, great [01:02:30] initiatives to kind of Yeah, keep having some life in the in the city, and and some of those gap full of things have happened in Littleton as well. So we've got a a sort of a, um a square area that is actually going now going to be in the, you know, in the plan is will be our sort of central square, but, you know, way before you know, council or anyone got to thinking even thinking about it. Gap filler [01:03:00] was creating, you know, seating places and a little garden and a little stage area and just, um, in a court. And that's a real gathering place. People, you know, go down there and sit there and chat. We were your pets, OK? Yeah, I got a lot of free food, actually, because people in Auckland are donated food, and yeah, yeah, because it was a huge thing, wasn't it? Where? Where people couldn't get back to their their [01:03:30] pets. And as I was on the coast, I was there till about Saturday after that Tuesday, one in February. And it was because my and my brothers partly had to stay there for the work. And partly my brother said, You can't get back into New Brighton anyway, so you may as well stay there. But it was It's an awful feeling of not being at home, so wanting to be home. Everybody sort of wanting to hang out together, you know? And [01:04:00] I wanted like, Oh, I've got a couple of dogs and they they sleep in the bedroom now because they all we all clump together. Yeah, but But there were some magical times because I I lived near the history. And when the power went off for, like, two weeks, I mean, the power went off just recently because a swan, um, flew into the temporary over overhead power lines. But so it went out again, and I walked down the end of the road in the dark, you know, and looked out over [01:04:30] the city, you know, to the darkness. And it's magical, actually. And that was magical in the, um, in the earthquake times, you know, like a whole week or two of no power is like it really puts you right down to the local. There's no Internet. There's no this phone, but there's nothing there. There's news on the radio transistor radio, but there's there's nothing else. So you you're very local, very, very, very local. And I love the feeling of everything. [01:05:00] The whole great machine having ground to a halt, you know? So how do you see? Uh, I mean, throughout our our chat you you've, um you've got such a positive way of of looking at it. Maybe quite, um, hard circumstances. How? How Where does that come from? How do you How do you? For instance, if you've lost power for two weeks, how do you see the positive in terms of that's That's [01:05:30] a beautiful view. Um, but But where Where does that come from? Oh, I think it's partly because I didn't have any of the horrors that a lot of people had. I didn't walk outside to. Suddenly there's nothing there or I didn't have, like, my friends on a concrete pad that that broke and they could hear it hollow underneath. It's like there's nothing horrible like that happened to me at all. So that gives me. And that was meant to be positive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, [01:06:00] me, me the same, You know, like, because I haven't experienced, um, you know, really awful things happening. You know, I can be positive, but I know you know of people who have, you know, lost their house or, you know, um, you know a friend who had just liquefaction sort of this fire through right through her house. Um, and who's who's still waiting? The insurance company, um, originally [01:06:30] said it was a rebuild and now saying it's a repair and it's like, you know, how can you repair this? You know, this is a madness, Really? So you know, she's got a battle ahead, but, you know, that probably won't be sorted for another year or two, you know? So, um, I don't know, you know, And and then, of course, you know, I've got, you know, a friend who lost someone in the C TV building. And, um um, and and a couple of people I know, um, [01:07:00] who were in the C TV building on the sixth floor and, you know, collapsed pancaked down, and then they walked out. But you know that that, you know, like I was with over the over last weekend and something happened, you know? And you can see she's still got that. You know, um, sort of hyper alert response to to things. So I mean, I think it's easy. It's easy for me because I haven't experienced [01:07:30] anything, you know, really hard. And my house is fine, you know, it's livable. You know, there's a few cracks here and there, and but, you know, it's, um and the other thing people say is like like we all through that year we were aware, like we kept thinking about the people in the C TV building and the horror of it, you know, it just was really I, I think especially that you know, where there were people trapped and and died after a while. [01:08:00] It was just so horrifying. And like just about everybody would say, Well, I haven't had it as bad as some because they're the people we're thinking about. You know, every time you I think it's it's like my God, what a horror! And and it's interesting how the the newspaper like it was like in a war. They didn't talk about that for about till about a year afterwards. And then they did the you know, the the picture of all the young students of that that class, that English language class that got killed and [01:08:30] the the the tragedy of that man talking to his wife, you know, until she died. And this and this and this story, like all the individual stories. But the paper was so good in not actually putting those in till at least a year afterwards, when we could hear that. Hear it, you know. So a lot of the time. We didn't even know it was as bad as it was until quite a bit later. And that was really good, I think. And in the meantime, we [01:09:00] we got so active around, um, setting up compost toilets. I mean the number of workshops on compost toilets. Suddenly the whole world went green. You know, it's like they want to know about compost toilets. Finally, Finally, the world is listening to us. You know, they need to know why you need to visit in your garden, you know, blah, blah, blah. So a lot of that stuff has suddenly become material for people, you know. And and there's a lot of pleasure in, [01:09:30] um, being practical about stuff. Yeah, so that's where some of the positivity is. It's a very mixed bag, actually. Yeah, looking towards the future, you were saying that that possibly the equity in the in the in your home might have reduced. What does that mean? In terms of ageing and in terms of things like retirement and and and looking after yourself in in later life, it's well, it undercuts [01:10:00] what you know. That's I mean, that's the main. That's the main, um harm that I've had from the quake, I think is is the loss of that certainty or or security? I think and it. But it's like it's it's something that's happening for a whole lot of people. Like I got friends in this exactly the same position who don't even know if they're going to get a rebuild or repair and they probably have to. I've got a couple of friends like that, [01:10:30] at least, and they also might have to sell up and they might have to go and live somewhere where they can afford to live. So it's, um it makes me think about the fragility of everyday life in some ways. But it's interesting because I I'm I'm thinking a lot about climate change and and that sort of stuff, And so in some ways [01:11:00] it's It's like it's it's part of This has happened already now and we've come through. We know what it's like to build a compost toilet. We know where to get our water from. We know we can rely on the people down the road. People put their taps from their wells out on the street, so you gather and get water So we've tried it out and it works like it's not the end of the world. So it's like in some ways, um, in some ways it feels like we're living in a slightly different world, [01:11:30] and it it just makes me so interested to think what will happen in the future as the possible. I think likely the climate catastrophes will start happening and we'll get climate refugees, and a lot of things will get a lot more difficult. And I feel both closer to that and more able to maybe cope with it or having more feeling of, Well, I have to let go and trust that someone will look after me if I'm old and [01:12:00] you know I don't feel I can do my own little arc and sail away somewhere. There's no way to sail. And the arcs got now got Tim holding. You know, I. I, um, worry a bit about getting older and, um, my partner and I Ronnie, we talk about, you know, sort of retiring together, but she's not going to retire for quite a few years. She's works for the Ministry of Health, and, um, she'll be there for a while. yet. If she, you know, I can imagine, [01:12:30] Um yeah, so I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night and think, What am I gonna do when I'm old? When I'm feeling, you know, in the middle of the night, I wake up and everything's achy and I I know because my my property is quite hard to manage because it's on a quite a a hill on a valley and, you know, it's sort of, um there's quite a lot of work involved, and I don't manage to do hardly any of it. So, um, yeah, I sort of, you know, sometimes [01:13:00] worry about getting older and and, you know, think about, um, you know that I'd like to live communally live, you know, but haven't done anything to organise anything like that. Like I know in in Auckland, there's, uh, the elder village, you know, there's a group involved, and I think, a friend of ours who's just moved to Wellington recently from Auckland. I think she's involved in that, um and I mean, I think they could quite actively, you know, organising something [01:13:30] for their retirement. But I haven't done anything to do it and I think I should. But I haven't, you know, kind of got myself organised to do anything about it or Yeah. Yeah. So I have this. I have this kind of, um, fantasy about how I'd like to live community. And I have lived community before. Before I was came out as a lesbian, I lived in a community, um, a mixed community on the outskirts of Christchurch and really enjoyed that time that [01:14:00] thing of sharing resources, sharing things. And now I live on my own, and I think, how has this hand come about? So, um yeah, but, um, as I say, I haven't, you know, like so you know, there's a fantasy about I'd like to live like that, but I haven't kind of got I haven't got the the bridge yet And whether I will ever get that bridge, I don't know. So it's an unknown [01:14:30] for me, I suppose, you know, and at times in the middle of the night, a bit of fear around it. I, I think one thing I've found is I've gotten much more tolerant of who I live with than I used to be. You know, it used to be very much like I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna I'm gonna do this. And you know, I'm not really bound in by anybody. Whereas I got I. I guess as you get older, it's lovely because you get more sure of yourself and you don't. And I guess that whole definition [01:15:00] of being a diet where it's so important to sort of shut my door to, you know, shut my house to my brother. And here he is, living with me Now. You know, it's like it doesn't matter. It's It's fine. It's I know who I am, you know? Nobody can shake that. So it's I. I like the idea of living with other people. And I would if he wasn't there, I'd be living with someone else there as well. So but But II, I juggle around like my eyesight's deteriorating and I need to be in a city. But I think [01:15:30] Christchurch might well be underwater in 20 years time, you know? So it's like but I if I go out to the country now, I can't. Well, in a couple of years, I won't be able to drive in and out. So and then that's when the house bus seemed like a really good idea. Even if I can't drive it myself, I get someone else to drive it for me. Yeah. So do you think there are different issues with ageing? [01:16:00] Uh, you know, uh, a straight person to, uh, a lesbian or or rainbow person? I. I think I think there's a cohort thing because I'm not sure how it is for or how it would be for a young person lesbian. Now, you know, another 40 years time. I don't I think I've I feel like I have, as I say, I have this, like com Sorry community, um, [01:16:30] sort of sense of community that is built up from people. I've known all that time, which gives me a feeling of security. Maybe which may be straight folk. I don't see them sometimes in that community, but sometimes I see them having that, like, say, if they are the green movement or some Christian movement or some other similar type of movement where they've done intense good things with each other. Yeah, so it really depends on [01:17:00] where people are coming from, I think. Well, I don't I don't have any family. I don't have any biological. Well, I have one brother who I'm sort of, you know, we've got quite a distant relationship. Is, um I see straight people that they have that sort of family backing, But then, like, tour. Um, I know I have my you know, my lesbian community. You know, my friends who [01:17:30] are my family. So, um, so I would trust that. You know, like, you know, when I die that they would, um, make sure that I had a really good funeral that represented me. Um, yeah, the other thing, this is the last thing I The other thing I've noticed is as I get older, like I'm 63 now, and I really [01:18:00] identify with older people I've really actually enjoyed. I think it's mostly in the green room, but other places as well. I've gotten to know men in their seventies and I. I experience men now as like being like, you know, like oak trees and protective. And in a way, I never used to when I was young and it's lovely, it's a lovely feeling and they're ones are their guys. I respect and strong and I'm really aware [01:18:30] of older people, especially ones older than me. So 75 and so on having that experience and that, um, and that wealth of knowledge. And also as I get older, it's like I feel like I like the whole world belongs to me or I'm part of the whole world. So it's like there's no there's no estrangement. There's less and less estrangement for like with the earthquake, it's like it's [01:19:00] it's, uh it, you know, is an identification with it. To some extent, you know, it's it's a real It's a surprising feeling, because I didn't imagine you'd feel if they don't tell you these things do as you get older. It's like to get older, But there's a whole other stuff that they didn't sort of. You know, that seems to happen, which is, um, which is really good. Yeah, [01:19:30] it's a feeling like I start to identify much, much more with the earth and in some ways that makes it harder, because because of the trouble that the Earth is in. But it's like there's there's nowhere to die from, you know, as it were, it's like it's, um yeah, there's no feeling of strange for anything. And I'm I'm I'm having, you know, a different experience to to because I'm [01:20:00] noticing. Um you know, um, the things that I can't do, you know, physically, you know, And, um And I think I think because I had ME chronic fatigue syndrome for, you know, I sort of had that was diagnosed with that in 1935 when I was 35. Um, and so for about probably about 10 years, I was, um after being [01:20:30] very physically active and very physically fit, um, I had a very period of, you know, very low energy. In the last few years, my energy has come back again. But now and I feel like I've been a bit cheated of my life because, you know, I, I spent quite a lot of time not having the energy to do the things other you know 40 year olds and 45 year olds are doing. And now here I am, at 64 and, [01:21:00] um, I still have these, um, ideas. I have many creative ideas and many projects, but I just can't do them, you know? And and I think there's quite a bit of disappointment or, um yeah, some grief grief there about, um yeah and I. I feel at the moment I'm I am in a bit of a limbo place because I'm not quite sure. You know, I know that the life I'm living at the moment [01:21:30] isn't sustainable for me, but I'm not quite sure where to next. So, you know, I'm in a bit of a limbo place. Yeah. Yeah, was it?
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