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1986. For me, it would be easier to start at the beginning. In March 1985 when the homosexual law reform bill was introduced into Parliament because it had been a secret. Up until that point, Fran didn't want the any opposition people or people that might possibly oppose it. We thought we thought there'd be huge opposition, which, of course, there was eventually but, uh, immediately, But, um, she [00:00:30] wanted to keep it a secret until until she introduced it into Parliament. And that was it was the beginning of the first week in March 1985. And how were you involved in that? Well, um, Linda Evans called a meeting of the lesbian coalition. Um, about a month before the bill was introduced to gauge, uh, lesbian interest in, um, and, you know, and working to support the bill. And [00:01:00] I went along to that meeting primarily because, um, I think you know, in those days, um, in the in the, um, in the bar scene, um, around, particularly around the royal oak, Um, the lesbians and gay men. Uh, So and, um, things like Carmen's coffee shop there was I don't know whether that was still going in in the eighties. But but, you know, through the seventies, anyway, we had the Dorian Club. That was and it [00:01:30] was mixed it. Sometimes it wasn't. Sometimes it wasn't. But we socialised much more with the gay men than perhaps lesbians did later at at the time of the introduction of home sexual law reform. And I had been part of that scene where we socialise a lot with with the gay guys. Uh, particularly in the I loved the tavern bar in the Royal Oak Hotel. I It was something else. It was fabulous. It was all noise and juke, Boxx and smoke and [00:02:00] be a It was something. And such a diverse group of people, you know, there were under undercover cops. There were, um, the prostitutes running in through, in, in and out from the the, uh, bistro in in front. There were the drag queens. There were the gay men. There were lesbians who were Salvation Army. With their war cry. It was it was just something else. It was pandemonium, and and then in amongst all that, there were all the crims and druggies and people like that and, [00:02:30] um But I had, um I was aware that two dear friends of mine who were gay had had, um, you know, charges against them. Uh, one of them was convicted. I'm not quite sure where the other one was was convicted or not, but he lost his job anyway, and And that And that was devastating for him. He was in the Air Force, and and he was It was a source [00:03:00] of great pride to him that he was in the Air Force And when and what the Air Force used to do was they didn't sack people. If something like this happens, and they got very, very good lawyers, and they usually got them off, But then they didn't renew the contract. And and I, I think probably that's what happened to him. But I'm not absolutely certain. Um and so I had watched it and observed how wrecked those two friends lives were [00:03:30] by this law. And I was determined that I was going to be involved in getting rid of it. So Linda called the meeting of the Les Lesbian Coalition. Yeah. So tell us about that meeting. Well, what She was what she was canvassing was interest, and it was There were there were a huge diversity and lesbian reaction to it. Some, some lesbians didn't want to have anything to do with it. Some lesbians, um, felt that it would be what usually [00:04:00] seemed to happen was the lesbians doing all the work and the gay media getting all the benefit. And, um, there was going to be a human rights clause, which would, uh, there were two clauses. The decriminalisation of of the law and then, um, coverage from by the Human Rights Commission. But, um, a lot of people weren't. A lot of a lot of lesbians were weren't interested in that didn't want to be included in the law. [00:04:30] So we were much better outside of the law. We were much better as outlaws. And, um so and so some other other lesbians thought we should be working on on other issues, Not this one at all. And so, uh, IA a diverse reaction to it among among lesbians. Anyway, I com I committed myself to being involved, and we needed to to find some lesbians who were prepared [00:05:00] to go along to the gay task force meetings to, um so that there was a, uh, you know, communication between the two groups, and most people didn't want to do that, But I sort of figured because I was used to, um, well, had been used to to I wasn't an activist at this stage. I might I might tell you, um that I was used to socialising with the gay guys. It wouldn't bother me. And, um, so I volunteered. And me and [00:05:30] Pauline Simmons and Alison Laurie and Linda Evans and later Julie and, um, Alison Lash. I think I think she was involved in that, um and we always made sure at least two of us went to those meetings. And, uh so that was that was one of the decisions. I think that was made at that. It was certainly made very early on that we that we'd have the, you know, maintain the communication and and and, uh, work [00:06:00] alongside support any issues that we wanted to do. But later, you see, once once the bill was was introduced, um, and and it was it it it had only just been introduced. And the and and the reaction immediately started and and there were two MP um, bank. I think his name was and Oh, no, there were four MP. Um, Norman Jones. Um oh, the one from Napier. What was his name? [00:06:30] I can't remember. But anyway, four MP S immediately got involved in the opposition to the, um, to the and the, uh what His name was Keith, Keith Hay and Peter Tate. Sir Peter Tate of the Marine Land. Keith Hay of Keith Hay Homes. They set up the coalition, Um, the of concerned citizens. Yeah. And And these four MP, um of which Norman Jones, The [00:07:00] mouth from the South. And Alan. Although he faded, he and the the one from Napier. And I can't think who the other one was. There was another one. There were four of them. Um, so they all got and and announced in through the media that they were going to get a million signatures against this bill by the end of May. And the next thing that happened for us was that some of the young gay men who'd been part [00:07:30] of the national gay rights um, coalition formed a group in Wellington because, of course, I'm only talking about Wellington. I'm not talking about what was happening in other places. Um formed a group called, um, campaign for homosexual equality. And that was Gavin, Young and, um, Douglas Jenkin and, um, a whole lot of needs and they [00:08:00] were fabulous. They were, and they were very aware of sexism. And actually, that was one of the best groups to work with I. I remember Gavin Young when in in the the following October, when it was Linda's birthday, he baked a cake for Linda for her birthday and brought it along to the meeting. I mean, you know, they were just darling guys, they were fabulous. And the the the gay task force wasn't quite so easy to work in. And Bill Logan's No, no doubt [00:08:30] spoken a lot about that because it was again. It was such a diverse group of people, and, um, the a lot of the see a lot of the older, very conservative gay men All they wanted was the decriminalisation. They didn't want to know about the politics of it. They just and they didn't care what age it was. And they thought the lesbians came along to the meetings and had far too much to say. So as [00:09:00] a lesbian going to the gay task force you were reporting back to the Lesbian Coalition. Is that right? So how how often would the lesbian coalition meet and what What were they really interested in with this? Well, originally, I think probably about once a month. We I said, I tell you, we were meeting out after about three weeks. We had meetings just about every night of the week, sometimes two or three. And because I mean, this is just the beginning. The the next thing, the hug, [00:09:30] the heterosexuals unafraid of gays for well, that's a bit that's a bit down the track. But we decided that we weren't all that. And the the name hug was coined in in Auckland by Barbara Goodman, who who started it all with with, you know, very, very good reason. But the the trouble was that they were putting out a lot of stuff that that we didn't really, uh, always quite agree with. And we thought it [00:10:00] would be good if if we had an umbrella that that brought them in, you know, with so that everybody sort of had had a, uh, um had an understanding of of the political implications of all this. And so we set up what was called the coalition in support of the bill. Now, that was a a gay task force initiative. And, um, Bill Logan and I were for the, um, inaugural meeting of that. We were the We were the two, [00:10:30] sort of, um, the lesbian and the gay man to to get to to get that off the ground. And so So now we had the lesbian coalition we had. Shay can campaign for home equality. We had The gay task was we had to go to all these meetings to see what was said. We didn't go to the hug meetings, but sometimes we were invited to go along for as a speaker. But then they did they want. They didn't want you to speak about the politics of the thing at the hug meetings. That's why it was it was good [00:11:00] to sort of bring them into the into the coalition, but and the CO The coalition was fabulous. I was involved in the coalition, right from the word go and and I I'll tell you what it was a huge learning curve for me because as I say, I wasn't an activist, but I had to get involved. All the women's groups, the rape crisis, the refuge women, Um, all the unions, as Russia and and all the, um all the churches and I met so many [00:11:30] people and that the the, uh, Marxists the the, um you know, we had the the Communists and the Trotskyites and the it was it was in. And the socialist Socialist action people. Oh, wow, it was I. I tell you, it was incredible. And and we we were a force to be reckoned with, actually. And we had there was a drag queen called Leonie who who wore live stockings. We thought it was live stockings and who was a public servant and was a in [00:12:00] the on the this This is precomputer days. I think we have to remember that too. So all the the, um, communication was either phone or by mail, and Leon was worked in public service doing filing and and did a card indexing system with all our contacts on it. It was, and it was the the best contact list in the country. And Brett Raley eventually put that con contact list onto [00:12:30] computer because he had a very one of the very early computers. But But way back in 85 you know, we didn't have any computers, no cell phones, just just ordinary telephones. And And Leonie did that and and we started a mailing list for the for the coalition. And, um, the photocopiers were, you know, in the businesses. And so if anybody had access to a photocopier and one [00:13:00] of the places that we did a lot of photocopying Well, Anne Frank was NZ U A. Yes, yes, they were marvellously support. The students were wonderful. Trish Mullins was she was in the coalition. Well, she was one of the ones that helped get the opera house ready. But anyway, uh, and Linda worked at the, um at the Broadcasting library, and I and I had an awful old typewriter that used to belong to the [00:13:30] Women's Cricket Association. That wasn't it wasn't very good. Uh, and so I used to go in and use her good typewriters in in her office, and and and then I'd often photocopy copies on her photocopier. And I remember one time the these people that were looking around you know they they were going to conduct a tour of the public service or something. I don't know. And somebody knew me and said, Oh, Tiggy didn't know you worked here. Linda said she doesn't very indignantly. [00:14:00] Do you think a lot of public service resource went into supporting the campaign? Yes, but don't tell a soul because I was always doing these press releases, you see, So I'd write and I'd make these little headings the way I made headings because I had, you know, we didn't have computers to, you know, to be able to use all those different fonts. So I'd write it about three or four times, whatever [00:14:30] the subject was at the top, and then the day and the what it was it was to and everything and then write these media releases. And then it was so easy because the TV was right there. The the broadcast, the radio broadcasting was right there. Then rush up to the evening post and the Dominion offices and and and drop them in, you see, So Linda was in a very strategic position and drop them into any other radio station like radio windy or something like that that we wanted [00:15:00] to too. It sounds really fun, actually. A lot of it. A lot of it was fun, Jack. It really it really was. And we had our post office box at the box was at the Manor Street post office. So I had to go in there regularly to, And I'll tell you something else. That was really, really nice when we said sorry about cleaning that when we when we set up the coalition in support of the bill. Um, and we had the, um first of all, we had this great rally. But first of all, we had the the rally at the Trades Hall. That was the the inaugural launch. [00:15:30] Then we then from that, we organised the opera house meeting, and then we we suddenly discovered we were overs spent. We'd we'd run out of money. So we did this big appeal. Um, what was his name? Can't think of his name. He wrote it for us. It's signed by me, but I didn't write it. He wrote such a good I can't think it doesn't matter. And And we sent this appeal everywhere and the first person and we and we got all this money. In the end, we never spent all [00:16:00] the money. We had so much money we never spent until we gave it to the AIDS Foundation. What was what? You know what we didn't spend? But we never had to worry about money again in that coalition. And we had we organised rallies at parliament, the parliament grounds and all sorts of things, and and went to the the the signing of the, uh, the the presentation of the of the petition. Um, but but as I say, we never had to worry again. And the first donation that I opened was from David Schwartz, who's the spokesperson [00:16:30] for the for the Jewish community here. And we, of course, were always, um um quoting pastor thing. You know, they came for the this one. They came for that one and and perhaps I'm jumping ahead a bit because I should say before that it would have been in in May. I think that they started that the the people the oppose the concerned citizens started calling meetings all over the country to oppose the and they had one in the town [00:17:00] hall in Wellington. I'll tell you what you'd have loved it. It was we went along with a policy of that. We would either laugh or sing, and we you know, we wouldn't We wouldn't let them upset us in any way. And it was the town hall. And well, in the old town Hall was absolutely packed. There were There were so many policemen. You have no idea. And oh, and die Cleary and somebody else from dressed up as nuns. And because we were told if you if you got out [00:17:30] of your seat, you, um you were going to be arrested and clear And this other woman all dressed up as nuns went walking down the aisle. Oh, the police didn't know what to do. And we were all cheering and waving and oh, we had song sheets as well. So and, um and I had a sign that, um, that I kept on holding holding up to say, um, I. I can't remember what I can't remember [00:18:00] what it was on. It might have. Might have said cheer. I can't Can't remember now. So so that every time I held up my sign Ray and and or somebody would get up and say Number two. So Number two on the song sheet and away we'd go and at that meeting Norman Jones. But that's that's the meeting. When he told us all to get back to our sewers when we came from, it was that meeting and he was a, um, a lawyer, and he he had a particularly mean, but I can't remember what he said. [00:18:30] But there was a doctor, Doctor Delaney. He actually gave up halfway through his speech because there was so much noise because he was saying we were all the product of mothers that had had measles during pregnancy. Where does he go to doctor school? I know, I know. It was it was incredible. And when he when he didn't get the opportunity to finish his speech, he went to the Evening post [00:19:00] and he had it print published in full in the evening post. And then Tony, Tony, Tony, somebody or other, I can't remember what his other name was, who was a psychologist at Vic. He wrote an article that that opposed what Doctor Delaney said. And of course, there were all these letters to the news paper, and I used to say the thing is that something else that because this all was happening in a very different environment to the one we know today. And the the, [00:19:30] um, the majority, Many, many people were closer, you know, were not out at work, were not out to their parents and were not out to their landlords. In fact, these three groups of people were what we used to talk about a lot. You know, how do you cope with your landlord? How? Because you could get thrown out of your flat. Um, if if you were gay or lesbian, Um, and you know, parents was a particularly difficult area. And where you know, your workplace [00:20:00] me was another. Another difficult area. So So it was It wasn't like today where, um where people? Um uh I mean, there's still there's still prejudice, but people are not quite so nervous about about being, you know, it's not, it's it's not quite as as prejudiced today. Far, far, far less. So, in fact, I think and so So that's the environment that all this was happening happening in and at the same [00:20:30] time. I mean, up until this point, you never saw the word lesbian, for example, published in the newspaper. They wouldn't publish it or the telephone book. Um, and all of a sudden it's It's in newspapers. In our letter boxes, it's on the television. It's on the radio. It's everywhere. There were, um, all along, um manner, Manor Street. There were tables, um, for petition for people to sign the petitions. They they took the petition door to door, [00:21:00] knocked on they they undertook to knock on every door in the country to gather signatures for the position that they were going to get a, uh, a million signatures on. And so the thing that bothered me very early on was that because I I had I had done my psychiatric training. I was worried about self esteem, and I was worried about the self esteem of our community and, [00:21:30] um, which, as were other people. And so we decided we had to do things that were going to cheer ourselves up. So at the same time as the as the anti were were organising their rallies against the bill, we were organising visibility rallies to cheer ourselves up. You know, getting the top twins to come down to Wellington to to entertain us and all sorts of people. There was a a guy that did the most wonderful Norman [00:22:00] Jones takeoff, for example. We had the bigger busters. We had the Bigger Busters Conference and the bigger Busters rally and and things. We had a big rally. We had big rally in May and another big rally and the biggest bigger Busters conference was in August and a and a big rally and conference then So So there was an awful lot happening, and it and it happened very suddenly to a community that really wasn't wasn't prepared and was was the very, [00:22:30] um, not quite sure how to handle it. So 1985 was a hugely busy year for you? Yes, it was. But I'll tell you what helped, too. We at ABC was going and the lesbian radio programme. We did lots of stuff on on on those two radio programmes and as well there was Pink triangle was keeping everybody up to date with it, and the first I think the 1st march that we had through Oh, I have to tell you this. The the first match I think we had was in May, [00:23:00] but What was amazing about that was that at the same time as this was happening what the word contemporaneously. Good word was the possibility of another Springbok tour. And, um so there were lots of marches on Friday nights, Um, against the Springbok tour. So we had alternative Friday nights. Where? 11 weekend, one Friday. Goodness me. One [00:23:30] Friday night, we'd march against the Springbok tour the next Friday night and and we tell everybody we're having a march next Friday. We'd rush around with pamphlets so we'd come back and and march against the, uh to support the homosexual law reform bill. So it it was a busy time. It was a busy time. Did you find yourself in the media a bit? Yes. And that was something new to me. Um, because I, you know, I started off. I wasn't [00:24:00] act. So I was just a lesbian that went to the pub and had lots of friends. And I'd been around Wellington for years. Um, so so? And I didn't perceive myself as a I at the beginning. I'll tell you something. At the beginning of that campaign, I did not perceive myself as an activist at the end. I did That was it. It was a life changing experience for me, But, I mean, it was a long campaign. It went right through until the following year until you know what? What we're going [00:24:30] to be celebrating, um, in 1986 when the bill was actually passed. How did you find the media When you were, um, when they were approaching you for comment or getting involved? What? How did you find them? In terms of their support or otherwise? I don't know that they approached me personally for comment. I think we had the spokespeople, and Alison and Bill were the spokespeople for the task force. And I think Gavin did a lot of the being [00:25:00] the spokesperson for Shay um campaign for, um, that that was the campaign. The coalition in support of I did a lot of media releases and got and did a lot of letters to the editor and letters to all sorts of people. Letters to the IRD saying that the Reform church wasn't really a it was a it was a political organisation disguise, and they shouldn't have tax exemption. We wrote one letter I thought that was a good one. And so you you were more the the sort of person who was who was churning out [00:25:30] the media releases behind the scenes during the treasurer of the coalition has supported the bill because we had we had a a treasurer, and then he resigned. So I just took that over in the In the meantime, during the year, did you be because you were so involved in these things? Did you find that it affected you at work or, um, in your home, like your landlord didn't turn against you or, uh, I had my own home. I lived in at the time, but I was always rushing down to Wellington, and [00:26:00] I was working part time, which was helpful because it gave me a lot of I was working most of most weeks. I was working three days a week, but sometimes I had to work a full time week. But, um, that was that. That enabled me to, um, be as involved as I was and just just finding out a little bit more about how the lesbians, um the different factions within the lesbians were supporting this or maybe just sitting on the fence and so on. Um, did you [00:26:30] find yourself having great debates with with lesbians within the community? Not personally, but there were a lot of debates happening. But I'll tell you what, I wasn't politically aware enough to debate the issues at that stage. I let other people I remember when, um when we had the launch of the coalition and I was the lesbian speaker at this launch. So I I wrote my you know, my speech notes, and I wanted another lesbian to say that they were OK. And I [00:27:00] went along to a meeting that was at the Lesbian Centre in Wigan Street to see if I can find somebody to go over my notes and and and approve them. And they were all people that proposed looking, opposed supporting the bill at all. But anyway, a woman called Rose, who lots of lots of people, know who lives in America now. She read it for me. She said to you, I think that'll be fine. I've always been very grateful to Rose. So 1985 busy year preparing everything and [00:27:30] and all the, um, the the protests on the other side and dealing with all that and then moving into 1986 itself. And in March, um, the third reading, I think of the bill with it. Can you recall sort the rallies or anything around that sort of time? We did. We had a big rally in the Wesley, um, in the in Taranaki street in the Wesley Hall. Um, and Malcolm [00:28:00] McAllister was really responsible for organising that he was part of the the coalition support of the bill. I think I think the year before was the really intense year in terms of, um, in terms of marches, rallies, um, cheering ourselves up, um, going along in a, for example, when the bill, when the signatures that you know the petition was presented at Parliament, we all went along to Parliament to protest, [00:28:30] and we were all fenced off. Oh, can I tell you about that quickly? Because that was That's a funny story because there were a whole lot of women from women against pornography. Ruth Charters got up and gave a speech and said, Quite frankly, I don't think that they had this, you know, this is our land. We are the we are the people and we're being fenced off in in in parliament grounds, which is our land. They have no right to say that we can't walk up there. So five of us, she and, [00:29:00] um 44 of us. We we climbed over the fence and started walking up. The and I was in the middle and we're walking up where we're not supposed to walk. And they were all I have to add that I was dressed up as I had a character called Cynthia Bag Wash and I, um, that I used to go to these rallies for to and and protest and things as And, um So I was Cynthia Bag Wash's daughter, Hank, who was a butch on this occasion. And I'd taken a tape recorder and a microphone [00:29:30] as well. And I was I was tape recording a lot of the proceedings, and I actually tape recorded Ruth's speech and I really sad because somehow it got taped over, but never mind. Um, off we went well and I'm walking along and I've I've got a hat and and and and tie and everything and and bag that Look I looked I don't know I. I mean, I looked ridiculous, But But anyway, the police arrested the two on that side and the two on that side and left me walking around free [00:30:00] to walk wherever. And in the end, I didn't like it over there because I was with all the aunties. So I climbed back over the fence and tell me, Tell me about Cynthia. Big. Tell me about her. Well, she was She was, um she originated when when the human rights commissioner pat down, they set up the the Human Rights Commission in about 1977 and the first Commissioner pat [00:30:30] down. He said that he thought there were some groups that should be discriminated against. And guess who was one of those was the National Gay Rights Rights Coalition wrote to him and which set off Oh, I. I had done a few little protests before 95. We started picking the Human Rights Commission, and so Cynthia Bag was became part, and the funniest thing was that she was a parody of a person. She wasn't a real person at all. [00:31:00] And, um and I'd gone to how she how she originated. I'd gone to a lesbian dance as Cynthia Bag was we used to have dances at. Um I can't think of what was called up in Elizabeth Street and and crossways Crossways. And, um so and and Alison suggested to me that why didn't I take Cynthia bag Wash along to the Human Rights Commission? So it was the middle of the day. So Cynthia Bag Wash wore evening dress and and she wore my aunt's hat that she'd worn to the Melbourne Cup [00:31:30] in about 1938. And and, um, anyway, so if I went But the funny thing was there all these real lesbians and gay men there and and Mr Crisp, his name was Mr Crisp because he said Mr Down, he wasn't available. He wasn't. He wasn't actually there in the office, but he would speak to somebody and and he would speak to me to to and not to me, to who was the only person [00:32:00] there that wasn't a real person. It was absolutely. He was so freaked out about real lesbians and gay men. He chose the one that wasn't wasn't real. So Cynthia came back for, um, for for the the protest and so on to do with the with the homosexual law reform bill going through? Yeah. Cynthia attended a lot of, for example. Cynthia attended We We went and joined the Salvation Army when? Because the Salvation Army picked up the petition, you see, And they were They [00:32:30] were doing a lot of the door to door work, and and so on, everybody went back and asked for their donations back. And that that that floored them a bit. Oh, and we had this wonderful protests down at the Citadel in Vivian Street each Sunday. We we got better at singing the Salvation Army songs, and they were. And we had one That was a a fancy dress that all the Salvation Army kids loved and and anyway, they they had the South Pacific, Um, sort of, I don't know, jamboree [00:33:00] thing Art festival in Wellington. And they had a march from Courtney Place through to, um through the Michael Fowler Centre. So we went and joined. I mean, Linda Evans said, wasn't it good of the Salvation Army to bring this band along for us to march, too? And Cynthia Cynthia Bag was went and marched in in in that and, um, and the Salvation Army all were quite amused and sort of quite warmly received [00:33:30] her. She was there in protest against their thing, but they sort of didn't get it. Um, and and I think it was in October about October 1985. We had I told you we had a rally in the grounds of Parliament. I actually wrote to the speaker and said, Could we have a barbecue in Parliament? And the speaker wrote back and said, No, you can't have a barbecue, but you can bring food. And I This is this is a funny story because somebody a friend This was the coalition in support of the bill. [00:34:00] And somebody had a friend who had a friend who had a tiny, tiny flat up in Hill Street, and and we we got all the food prepared up there. But Fran didn't want us to to it was getting too close. And she didn't want us to have this rally and I I actually was cross. We we we had words, but I won't. I won't go into that. But But But she got the The Victoria Club was a social club. Um, and it was with the Victorian club that we organised [00:34:30] the celebration. That's why it was so difficult. But But anyway, she talked. She talked to to the Victoria Club people and asked them to stop us from. And because they were, they were, um, funding the gay task force. They they were all the rich gay men. Victoria Cup was on Oriental Bay. It was up above the grain of salt. Yeah, it was neat. It was I went there lots of times, and I loved it. And And I loved all the people, [00:35:00] but But once you once you start getting involved in politics, you suddenly got the people that that are not involved in the politics of the thing. Uh, aren't all that thrilled about your your becoming a devotee of of all this stuff anyway, so we they had this meeting and everybody had the flu. This was a different time of the flu because it was some time later that I had the flu. When that thing passed and and and they were they were all too sick or too scared to come to the meeting and it ended up. There was [00:35:30] only me to argue the point and the se About 70 people came from the from the, um, Victoria Club. But I'll tell you what James Hislop and John Templer who's no longer with us they stuck up for me, and, uh, they were absolutely marvellous. And But there was a guy called Daniel Fielding who who was you know, who was really against it. And he was putting the And I didn't like Daniel feeding Fielding at all. And and I thought, you know, he was a writer. [00:36:00] Well, when it came to doing the celebra celebration of the bill that Daniel turned up at that and he said to me and and he lost a lot of weight at that stage, he he was a He was a big guy. Um, when I first met him and did we want to do something about HIV aids and in the Senate. But I, I forget now what it was, but I remember, you know, he asked that something to do with with that, whether we should have some sort of recognition [00:36:30] of of the problems of HIV, aids and I. I thought we should and I can't remember what we did. But But anyway, then I got a pink triangle. Um It was in 1987 and I read an article written by Guess Who Daniel Fielding and I was beside myself. I had no idea that you know that he was HIV positive and and II I felt very I don't know. I just felt very sad because I remember this question he'd asked [00:37:00] me and I thought, you good lad. You know, doing that even though you were bastard back back then. And anyway, then it came up for for the, um, human rights bill and we were doing submissions on the human rights bill, and I went as to represent the Bill. Logan and I represented the gay task force. And then Bill and I supported him. Um, and he was representing people with AIDS, and [00:37:30] we and we stood on either side of of him while he he gave his submission. And he got so upset when he was giving it about telling the treatment that he'd had by his doctor and I ended up with my arms around him and I was crying and he was crying, and I don't know whether Bill was crying, but anyway, we became absolutely firm friends. As a result, and I used to visit him up in up in main Road, and, um, he became very, very So we started off as sworn enemies in [00:38:00] 1985 and ended up as very, very dear friends. And I actually went to his funeral, and it was amazing at his funeral because because start up when his sister spoke and how he'd he'd supported her with her alcohol problem. And when after she finish, everybody clapped. And after that, we clapped everybody that spoke, and it was it was wonderful. He'd have been thrilled. So I just wanted to tell you that about Daniel. I remember his funeral I remember was, um, people could choose to put either rose petals or [00:38:30] leather bits of leather patch in his coffin Worried about what might be found up in the attic. It's fantastic. Um, during the year of 86. Um, no, no, I love these stories. Um, during the year of 86 do you do you recall, um, some of the events during that that year in the lead up to the bill going through? I'll tell you what. It was a quieter year than 85. [00:39:00] We we launched the year with this big, um, a rally at the Wesley Hall. And, um but after that, it was it was much more about media releases and letters to the to To to MP S, and, um II. I was absolutely flat out as secretary of the coalition. Um, I and I'll tell you somebody who was a real story, uh, just to get in so far as MP [00:39:30] when I mentioned MP. Because Fran, of course, Fran Wild. She she was the, um what do you call the promoter of the bill? The people that really, really support her were her office staff, Ruth Dyson and her. She went and worked in Fran's office and Marian, her secretary. And but I think Trevor Mallard was a huge support to to Fran and, um and Judy Keel. Judy Keel was the first MP to come out publicly, and Fran was just so [00:40:00] relieved. You know, that somebody supported her bill. It was one that was gonna be voting on it, saying, you know, it wasn't just gonna be her vote on it, but the other person, because Alison and I went and, uh, lobbied because there was very busy. We're all going up making appointments for the MP S and lobbying them. We we lobbied, Uh, Lockwood Smith and Catherine O'Regan and Catherine O'Regan was always staunch. She was staunch right through and in the end, uh, the only two national party [00:40:30] MP S that did vote for the bill were her and George Ge. But she Fran always knew she had Catherine's vote. And then later she introduced a supplementary order paper for with the Hu for the human rights bill in 1993. So she has always been a great supporter of lesbian and gay rights, and she's a lovely person, too. And, um, I liked her immensely and, um and because we had several meetings with her and, um and Linda was [00:41:00] horrified. National MP Look at you too. You're so pleased with yourself. National MP She said Alison and I came out after the first time we've been to see it And, um, but it was It was it was There were a lot of meetings, a lot of writing letters, a lot of a lot of media releases, um, and stuff. And there was Le Le leading right up to it. There was a lot of worry about the age of consent because we wanted 16 and and we knew [00:41:30] from what had happened in England that they'd had an age of 21 and it took them decades to get rid of that age of 21. And that's a real betrayal to young gay men coming out. And so we were absolutely adamant that it was going to be 16 and we near. I think we nearly lost George Gear's vote because of that. But anyway, in the I can't remember what it was he he said afterwards. You know, um, why he why he he did vote for it in the end. But he was very Dicky about the age, [00:42:00] and, um, there were a lot of a lot of those older gay men that that didn't think it was, that it was a good strategy, but that we were holding out for 16 because they felt that that was going to lose us. The bill, Um, be because even though it was the, you know, the argument was rational and obviously sensible, Um, a lot of people really, [00:42:30] really couldn't cope with it, so this is in a very different environment today, we you know, we were seen as either perverted or deviant or just plain bad, I think. And, um and yeah, it it it it was hard. It was a hard time for the MP S. Not only that, I think the other thing you have to remember is this was not M MP. This was all these MP S came from their electorates, so and [00:43:00] it was a conscience vote. So they were responsible for their vote, not their party. And, um and so a lot of MP S were really, really worried that if they voted for it, they'd lose their seat. But anyway, in the end, they did. So did you go and speak to most of the MP S? No, no I. I only went and lobbied Lockwood Smith, and, um I think, but But somebody was we we actually had a list of them all. And and you know what? Their position [00:43:30] was at the gay task force and people you know volunteered to do this one or that one. That that they they would have all been lobbied in Wellington. That was well organised that Bill Logan organised that the task force So do you. Um, the When the bill actually was going through, Can do you remember the the sort of the day or the night that the bill was actually the third reading? And, um, what was happening? Where were you that that evening [00:44:00] I was in bed with a nice, ghastly flu. And on the funniest thing was that the next morning, I I was better than feeling a bit better the next morning. So I wasn't there when it happened. But I'd been going and sitting in Parliament through the debate, and and sometimes, you know, there were only a couple of us there because it was every Wednesday night, But that Wednesday night that it was I think it was a Wednesday night. It would have been, um I got I got this gusty, [00:44:30] gusty flu and II. I almost wasn't worth it. I wasn't sure, you know, I thought I. I thought I heard on the radio. What did I hear that? But it really happened. And and that's how I came to mess up my tape of of charters. Because I I taped over it because I thought I'll take the news so I can hear it again, you know, after because I I kept I. I really I must have had a raging temperature, I think. But anyway, I into the into the Lambda Centre that we had A the gaming had a, uh, the Lambda [00:45:00] Centre in the, uh in street and And they had the archives upstairs in this old building that's since been pulled down. So I rushed in there, and Tommy was there, and he and he had a table for, um, right through for for months and months and a table for people to sign, um, letters to parliament to parliamentarians. And he took them off and delivered them absolutely fantastic. And he was in there on his own and [00:45:30] somebody I'll never forget. Somebody rang up and said, Well, well, where is everybody on the phone, you know, wanted to speak to somebody. It was somebody from the media, and Tommy said, Well, I think they were all probably in bed. Um, this morning that that it was legal. That's gorgeous. So that that was the next day that you went down to your first thing the next morning. I can't remember. There was some reason that I had to be [00:46:00] there. And but But when the bill was actually passed, I was out out out of my tree with with some awful infection. But everybody else was there having a wonderful time in. So everybody was them bringing me up and saying, Where are you? Pop got a terrible cold. Where had everyone be celebrating? Where did where did they go that night? Do you know you were out of it? Yes. Yes, I was in bed. And so [00:46:30] did you get involved in celebrations after that? Once she came around, we we hired the town hall. Cynthia Bag was was very busy that night. As as was her daughter Hank, who was a butch. And Cynthia turned up, I would have like Hank. Yes, and actually that was fun. Can I tell you a funny story about that? Because Brett Wars and I were in the same class at school as as each other for, um, for one year. He [00:47:00] was in Standard four, and I was in standard six, and it was a composite class anyway. So and Britt was very involved in setting up and helping set up the sound system, see, supervising everything for the celebration of that. I'll tell you what you could write a book about organising the celebration for the homosexual law reform. But it was worse, just about worse than organising the campaign. But But anyway, we we had this wonderful night, and, um and I was, um [00:47:30] I was the MC for the because we had a floor floor, floor show, uh, or concert, sort of. Yeah. And, um And then we had, you know, a big dance afterwards and all sorts of items for the for the concert. And so, first of all, Tiggy instone would come and be the MC, and she wore top hat and tails. Oh, didn't she think she was something else? And then for the next item, um, Cynthia bag wash would come. [00:48:00] So I and then the next item since he bag Wash's daughter who was a butch, came and said So I was constantly just changing my clothes. I didn't actually see any of the concert because I was so busy. And at one time I was getting changed, and Linda Evans was helping me, and she and Brett came and he was trying to tell me something about the sound system. And, um, pardon me, and I, um Linda said to Brett, Brett, Tiggy is getting changed, you know? [00:48:30] And and Brett said ticky doesn't care. We went to school together, and I always thought that was a glorious line. So that that at that party at the town hall was it, like, a week later or or No, it it took us quite a while to get it all together. But, um and we had speeches. Fran gave a speech and Alison gave a speech and Bill gave a speech. I can't remember who else gave a speech, but there were quite a few. And, [00:49:00] um uh, no, it was It was It was probably about a month or five or six weeks late later. Because we had we had to have a series of meetings to get it together and nobody agreed about anything at the meetings. I can tell you how many people would have turned up for the meetings. We don't know. For the for the dancers. 00, big. A big, big crowd. Um I? I don't know. Probably about 1000. I don't [00:49:30] know if it was that many. It's really hard to But But, you know, the the dance floor was I can remember looking down from the stage and the dance floor was full. Did you have any pro protesters there? No. No, we didn't. No, no, they they given up by then. So once once that was once the bill had gone through, the actor passed and so on. Um, yeah, How How was it after that with, say, the community and the Salvation Army, for example. [00:50:00] After that, I remember going to, um, to a pub on Tory Street and they would come in, and it was would be having the dudes nights, you know, and And they'd come in and people would just turn the backs on them. And that was that would have been sort of around 1990 91. Yes, Well, well, my my feeling. I mean, I'm I'm not a gay man, so I don't know. I mean, it would have been huge for gay men because they could be visible now, you know, I mean, it's not that they weren't going [00:50:30] to be having sex in public or anything like that. Um, but but, um, it they didn't have to be as closet as, uh, it it didn't have the ramifications for them. As I mean, it was Criminalization is huge. And of course, we did lose the second part. Um, I read some or somebody, um wrote a paper recently and was quoting somebody else that had written a thesis that said that we, um that these human rights part two [00:51:00] was more important than decriminalisation. That is absolutely incorrect. And we always knew that it was very likely that we would use lose part two. We were quite prepared for that. But the decriminalise, the the decriminalisation, there was nothing that could have been more important than that. I mean, it was it it It was a It was a shocking thing for and for all those guys to be living. But for I mean, one guy went to lobby Margaret. He [00:51:30] was a doctor and she told me he he was and she he said She said they both ended up in tears. He was saying one time he was in the domain in Auckland and all of a sudden there were police dogs on him. He was running away from these police dogs and and and he said he felt. She said he felt terrible because he burst into tears in the middle of telling her the story, and she and she said It was so awful. I burst into tears, too, because if they still haven't been pardoned, no, [00:52:00] no, there's there's a petition being gathered and I don't know how far that's got and I really commend that young guy that's that's organised that and I certainly signed it and sent some copies of the petition to to friends. But II, I haven't heard any news of it. Um, you must have made some strong friendships during from those times. I did. I did. I did. I. I became very, very fond of just so many. I'll tell you something funny, Jack. When? When we [00:52:30] the coalition in support of the bill. We we hired the opera house. Now this is when we'd only just started and and I wasn't very experienced. Malcolm Malcolm McAllister was more. He was a socialist action man. And, um, and a whole lot of rape crisis, um, and refuge women and women against pornography. We all We were, um, got all the the opera house together, and we had buckets to [00:53:00] collect donations for this coalition in support of the bill that we and we got it all ready. And we had Sonia Davis had offered to be our patron and she was going to speak. Fran was speaking. George spoke, not George. Um, what's his name? You know, the the famous Presbyterian minister that used to be at the on Saint Andrews on the terrace. He spoke. Oh, for the unionist from Auckland. Um Jackson. Sir Jackson. He came down and spoke. It was absolutely rang Moana Taylor and I read [00:53:30] that, and we used to work together at Shelley Bay at the Air Force Base. And it was it was going to be some other guy who couldn't come at the last minute and so rang turned up. And of course, we were old friends. It was absolutely fabulous. And he read, Read the means. We read them. Alternatively, we thought alternately we thought we did rather a good job. And and And the funny thing was about, that was there was a post office strike at that time. So these telegrams Oh, sorry, [00:54:00] came through through all sorts of devious ways, and they came from all over the world. It was It was really, really exciting. But a lot of them had that people just had to ring up from Norway or London or cologne or whatever. And tell us what the organisation had said the telegram was going to say, Um well, the phones were still working. It was just that the the the telegrams When when was that? That was the 16th of August [00:54:30] 1985. I can and the 16th was because of the date of 16. But anyway, we we we this little happy band of people we'd set up all the opera house, we had it all, OK? And we and, you know, undertaken to provide to pay God knows how much for the for the hire of the opera house. So then we thought, We'll have a cup of coffee while we wait because there was about three quarters of an hour before everybody would start coming. So if we went over to the oaks across the road, we sat and thought, What if nobody come? [00:55:00] Never forget that The anguished. Anyway, About 800 people came to that and it and it went really, really well. So, um, for next year. It's the 30th since the bill went through since the act came through. Um, 30 years. Does that? Does that feel like a long time? Or how does that feel for you? Look, I, I can't believe it's 30 years I. I we've had We've had [00:55:30] 10 years and 20 years celebrations of it and and it seemed, but 30. I cannot believe it was 30 years ago because it was such a dramatic time that that I think that probably so many events just impacted on on. And for me personally, it was such a turning point in my life as well as I say I went in just ordinary old that went down to the tavern on Saturday nights, came out and active, you know, Um um, [00:56:00] Socialist Action said, Would I like to join in the Communist said, Would I like to join them? I was rather neat. They came and visited me. I said, No, I'm a feminist. What do you think you got involved in afterwards? Because you you were now this activist. Uh, well, I was I. I was always involved in and there's been things. But also we were challenged during the campaign about the treaty, that we should be doing something about the treaty. [00:56:30] And so I said at the time, Well, actually, I can't do that. And this this, you know, this is overwhelming, but, you know, and leading up to 1990 got involved in groups of lesbians that were that were opposing celebrating what we were opposing was celebrating a treaty that had not been, um, you know, fulfilled. And we went up to Waitangi. Uh oh. We had an amazing time [00:57:00] and and protest that we went to the Commonwealth Games. Of course. 1st, 1990. And then we went up to, um to wait. There were 80 of us camped at, um you were there, Were you? Oh, wasn't it fan? Remember those great big bonfires we had at night and the singing around the bonfires? It was stunning. Like my lesbian baptism was really Jack. Hm? What [00:57:30] a wonderful baptism. So, um, were you involved in rope crisis and refuge in those organisations around that time? Or there were just people you knew I was I was involved in refuge in Christchurch and and and then later in the in the nineties and the mid nineties, but no, I was I. I had a lot of friends that were involved that I'd met through the coalition support of the bill. You see? Yes, me, all sorts of rationalists and humanists. I mean, we went, we went to meet the [00:58:00] they were all very elderly. They were amazing people. They and, you know, I didn't even know they existed. This is everyone coming out of the woodworks to support to support lesbians and gay men. It just blew your mind. And I'll tell you, some of those marches were incredible. They they were just stunning. I mean, there were there were the awful people that threw tomatoes and drop bags and flour and everything, but, um, and some lesbians said something about some of them. I'll tell you that, but I was filled with admiration, [00:58:30] actually, their bravery, but And also, I'll tell you what I I had been doing Massey papers. And, um, one of our lecturers was was blind. Peter. Peter can't remember his other name, but people will know who was a sociology lecturer at Massey. And I was just blown away that when I saw Peter and his guide dog and two of the other sociology lectures from Massey in Palmerston North. So I don't think it was in Wellington yet. Then, [00:59:00] um, marching in the march, be if somebody was one of them. It just blew your mind. Did you know people, um, who were against the bill? Oh, well, well, as a matter of fact, and, Well, yes, I would have. I would have. I can't think of anybody straight off the top of my head, But I'll tell you what. The uh there were three of us, Jane Cole and Fran Richardson. Me all worked at the Wellington Polytechnic, and our boss was Salvation [00:59:30] Army, But she chased me down one day. How's it all going? How's it going? But when we were protesting outside the Citadel, she would have been inside praying. But But I'll tell you what. She was such a sport, and she and all she did was worry about us. She worried that we were all right. And when Fran was Fran, Fran was on television. Um, in 1981 protesting against the Springbok tour and, um, and being manhandled by the [01:00:00] police and And Judith was down in Dunedin and she she rang Fran up from Dunedin. Are you all right, Fran? Are you all? So you know, we we were very fond of her. Judith Christensen, who was her name and she was a Christian woman and she she really worried about us through this. Do you think about the changes that have happened that you've seen that perhaps how lesbians have benefited from that bill having gone through, [01:00:30] I think lesbians, You see, we were invisible. And that's why we called Lava Lesbian Action for visibility. And and it was it in about 1922 that the British Parliament tried to include lesbians in the in the in the criminalization and and one of the MP S argued it was better to keep maintaining their their invisibility because if people, if women who you know, heard about this, that they might be encouraged by it, so it's just best not to, not to say a word, and, you know, and that was [01:01:00] in terms of what they were aiming for. It was a very good strategy because it's a very hard strategy to fight against, and I believe that more more with the human rights legislation that became law and it was passed in 1993 became law in 1994. I noticed a dramatic change in the way the media reported on this. Suddenly we were in the media, and but not just for negative things. Not just like Queensland vamped by lesbians. Um positive, [01:01:30] Positive, um, images of lesbians. And to me, that was I've still got in the bottom of one of my boxes a whole lot of cuttings that I started cutting out. I was so excited, you know, this was in the paper. It's about lesbians. And it's so positive. I remember Doctor Ringer's sister died around about that time. I still have the cutting somewhere, and she was a lesbian and she was locked up in one of the and the concentration because she was a lesbian and and it was [01:02:00] or was it him? That died and I can't remember. But one of the guy rang. A family died anyway, and it mentioned the sister that was in one of the concentration camps because she was a lesbian. Now, in the past, they never put that in. They might have put that she was in the concentration camp, but not because she was a lesbian. So the visibility was was a huge thing. And and the the positiveness of it? Yeah, it was in the in. In the seventies, lesbians [01:02:30] protested to the post office. They protested to the buses. They protested to the to the evening post because the evening post wouldn't put an advertisement in that said for Lesbian Centre. You know, the the the word lesbian was a no no. In all those places, the the buses had these advertisements, you know, along the that they wouldn't They wouldn't have a, uh, an advertisement for lesbians and, um, and and the telephone book. They wouldn't let us put the lesbian centre in the telephone book. Isn't it bizarre? I mean, it seems [01:03:00] bizarre now, but that's how it was. So we've lived through an interesting period, haven't we?
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