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Merry festive season to everybody. This is Brianna from the Rainbow Perspective. I have a very special guest today with me. A very, very important pioneer in the path of transgender people. Her name is Georgina Beyer. You all know her. I can't help it, but I'm actually welling up saying that I have the opportunity to interview Georgina. And [00:00:30] I'd love to welcome you to our show today. I watched Well, hello, Brianna, and thank you for having me, um, on your show, and yeah, warm seasons greetings to you and everyone who's listening. Now I took, in precedence for this, while I haven't had a chance to read your book yet, I did take the time to watch the documentaries, the four part documentary that was made about you and what you've achieved. I'd like to introduce to the members of this, [00:01:00] um, radio show, the listeners, that this is a very fundamental person and she has a great deal to tell us. Georgina, I'm sure that the media have asked you all the inappropriate questions and that's not why we're here today. I'm asking today that you share what you need in most recent generations of rainbow humans need to know so that they can move forward with confidence and [00:01:30] also with respect for what's gone on before. So I'd like to open the forum to you now, my dear. Gosh, such a huge subject area, really. Um, I guess the message I'd like, um, our younger generations of rainbow community to understand these days. Is that the liberties that we enjoy today, that they were probably more or less born into, are fragile, really. And I think we're witnessing that [00:02:00] with some of the quite extremist views that have come to the fore in the last year. A couple of years, particularly, given the trauma the world has had to go through with things like COVID, etc. But also the uprising of, of, um, quite extreme right wing views, um, which tend to use, um, significant minorities, of which I consider our rainbow communities to be that, become, um, uh, [00:02:30] you know, uh, Kicking posts for people, uh, to denigrate and return us back to, uh, being the, um, underprivileged minorities, uh, that we grew up from. And, uh, And emerge from. I stand on the shoulders, of course, of those pioneers before me who were out and proud enough to endure the negativity of our, [00:03:00] uh, I, I, Almost fall short of calling it a lifestyle because that suggests that some of us who transition, et cetera, are, um, making a, a personal kind of choice when really it's my view, it was no choice at all. Uh, it was no choice that we were born into. Societies tended to, um, uh, keep us at the bottom of the heap that we were considered unnatural, not normal, abhorrent, uh, et [00:03:30] cetera. And, um, that extended into the kinds of, um, discriminations and prejudices that were rampantly, um, uh, thrown at us, um, and when you lay layers of ethnicity and other such things on top of that, it, uh, proved that, that it was, um, an impossible thing to try Be yourself and be who you are without there [00:04:00] being huge social ramifications. The law did not protect us at all in those days, quite the contrary. And so I think in the last 40 odd years, at least anyhow in New Zealand, Um, we have come an awfully long way and enjoying the liberty that we have today. And I would like young people to just note that these rights that we have [00:04:30] now, um, are fragile in the sense that it would only really take a change of government, an attitude that is more harsh upon us to come and start to diminish some of what we have fought for very stridently over the last 40 odd years. I think, too, that what, um, we achieved was part of, um, other [00:05:00] movements in the 60s and 70s, the civil rights movement, the anti Vietnam war, the women's movement for equality, etc., like that, and the rainbow community started to emerge and unite, frankly, to assert, uh, their right. Uh, and their, uh, desires to be treated equally under the law and, um, and it has been a long and fractious and, um, and quite tragic [00:05:30] sometimes. Sometimes, um, a battle for, uh, the pioneers, not just in this country, but around the world, uh, to have brought many of us to a point where we can actually live meaningful and contributive lives to our societies, rather than being considered scum of the earth. If I may just reflect on one of the first things that you said just earlier, um, It isn't a choice. The only choice that we have, in my own personal [00:06:00] experience, is when, the how, and the rest of it is a necessity to become who we are. I think that, oh, well of course to, to, to be comfortable in your own skin is an important element of being able to be a properly functioning human being. I think that's right. And, um, one of the, one of the other things, dare I say, a lot of the, um. Attitude that was negative, I think, [00:06:30] uh, stems from, um, religious doctrine, um, love the sinner, hate the sin. I've never considered myself to have been a sinner in any kind of way, and it's patronizing, frankly. Um, I think, um, I think when we gained a certain amount of liberation, whether it be homosexual law reform back in 86 here in New Zealand, and then some subsequent pieces of legislation, and I've always thought that legislation itself was, is [00:07:00] relatively easy to change and alter in a positive, affirmative way, uh, but it's the attitudinal change that needs to happen within the society that takes far, far longer. And I think I often had, um, hopes that it would be the younger generations, um, that would be able to, um, one, benefit from whatever sacrifices we had to make when we were, um, younger, and, uh, sort of, you know, [00:07:30] oppressive attitudes that there were, um, and, and I have to say these days, I think there is, the activism that we have with some of our young people today, uh, these days is impressive, um, and, but sometimes I think sounding a little entitled and, um, and lacking some recognition of, um, um, Of just what exactly did go on, um, for the, um, activism that, um, [00:08:00] rose during the 70s and the 80s. Um, and, uh, and that really even as a rainbow community, um, gay women, gay men, transgender were quite separate, um, in their own worlds, I think at the time, but had recognized that unity Towards a common goal of wanting, um, equality and respect from the society with which we [00:08:30] lived required our visibility. And so, people who stood forward and put themselves out there to be exposed as advocates were hugely brave and courageous because it was very dangerous to do something like that in many ways because you would become a target, of course, that could be recognized. There were very few of us, I think, certainly in the transgender world, um, who were high profile and provided the only [00:09:00] sort of, um, visibility, uh, that any of us who had latent, um, transgender, um, uh, feelings going on at the time, but also, um, It, um, could be played as a football with the media as well at the time. I think one of the few people who, uh, managed to win over an affection, largely, uh, from the country, uh, and, and people in general was someone like, um, Carmen [00:09:30] Rupe. Yeah. Maddie Carmen as we knew her. Um, who although lived in this twilight world, but she was so out there and she was so forthright I think in, in many of her. Ways and attitudes that when she stepped into a public arena, such as running for the mayoralty of Wellington, um, City in 1977, that was quite a major move and, um, to do that, but the visibility alone, um, was [00:10:00] somehow reaffirming for those of us who weren't quite as out as she was at that time. Um, and the courage, I think, of talk, um, It's just one thing, yeah. Um, everybody's got to have their own particular individual experience, I think, of their own transition. It is quite personal in that sense. But there will be things that will occur in each of our lives that have similarities that we utterly identify with. Yeah. [00:10:30] One of the things that I've noticed in the, in the 20s and 30s community of the rainbow community Membership in the Hawke's Bay, for example, is that you're correct. There is an entitlement, but there is a strong Desire to Manifest change and or protect what has been established and I think that there Having, having recognized that I'm a little long in the tooth these days, contemporary understanding of [00:11:00] the world is something that I don't have as, as reasonably as I would have if I was in that age group, but I do see that there is a large group of understated and out there individuals protecting what the wonderful things that you and people like Carmen and Chrissy Wotoke and many others have established for us. Well, a lot of what Chrissy Wetoko and, um, and Carmen did [00:11:30] was about looking after our, um, Our scene, for want of a better term, um, you know, at the time, uh, we, there weren't many, if any, places that were safe havens for us to be who we are and to be out. And, um, and certainly Carmen and Chrissie, uh, both provided venues in Wellington, at least, anyhow. Um, uh, that where they were safe And it just so happened that, um, many other people, highbrows and [00:12:00] lowbrows would, um, uh, frequent, um, uh, Carmen's balcony or Carmen's famous coffee lounge or, um, things like that. So it started to build up. Um, be a place of, of safety and it's alright kind of thing for not just our community, uh, but, um, anybody else who felt that they could, uh, uh, come there. Yes, we had those people that would come who wanted to do their queer bashing and things like [00:12:30] that. But, um, when they got confronted with a few of what we used to call the big teds, um, who really could, um, uh, uh, uh, drop their nice feminine voices and turn back into, uh, uh, some of the masculinity they once had to protect ourselves, I might add. Um, and, uh, uh, it, uh, you know, oddly enough, there would be a strange kind of respect from, uh, people, um, who are frowned upon also in society, such as gang people. [00:13:00] I noticed that, um, in my own experience, and again, reflecting on what I watched in your documentary, Georgie Girl, last night, that, um, it came, it came to my awareness early on that the only way that you will win the battle is by winning the heart of the people that you are most challenged by. And I noted how effectively in your career as an, um, mayor and as an MP, you were able to do that to even the most, um, [00:13:30] Perceivably unreachable of people in my own experience, it's about being honest and open hearted and willing to understand that sometimes transition is a journey that more than one person including yourself is taking at that time. I have, well, I have to, you know, as far as my political career was concerned, um, that is, you know, to have. Being elected to either [00:14:00] the District Council or to Parliament is more a reflection, I think, on, um, The people who elected me who knew all about my back story I mean, I'd been a former prostitute, a stripper, you know, all of that kind of negative thing I'd spent most of and that was so I transitioned 1970s and I was on the you know on the game so to speak until you know about the early 1980s before I then [00:14:30] ended up in Uh, working at a, a gay nightclub in Auckland, Alfie's. Um, The nightclub's doing drag shows, um, uh, kind of stuff, so most of the 80s was spent doing that. But, also at the same time, um, in the film world, at least, anyhow, um, Roles were being written, um, and I was lucky enough to star in a short film called Jules Dahl, which was a drama, uh, which depicted a day in the [00:15:00] life of a transsexual and a transvestite. And in television in New Zealand at that time, subject matter like that was just simply not done, let alone aired on television. And, um, And it was a different perspective on the lives of transgender people, although it was a drama, and um, you know, at that sense, but it was beyond the caricature of the, um, Benny Hill, Dick Emery kind [00:15:30] of, Danny LaRue stereotype drag. Queen stuff. It was more a real look at more real people who happen to be transgender, in this case transsexual and a transvestite. And that was sort of a bit of a breakthrough as far as our visibility being altered from just being, um, laughable caricatures, um, to something a bit more real and an insight for the general public, I think, to see a different perspective on our more real [00:16:00] lives. And some of our aspirations, I suppose, just to be who we are and to be allowed to function. Institutional prejudice and discrimination was terrible for us at the time. I mean, I think that, you know, I think I probably mentioned it in the Georgie Girl doco that um, I went fronting up to the doll office to sign up for the doll. I just got told to put my trousers back on and be the man I'm supposed to be and go out there and get a job. And I guess for me personally, that's where I drew the [00:16:30] line and I said, well, no, actually, this is who I am and, and I'm not going to change it for anybody and if I have to suffer your, um, uh, your draconian view on allowing me to be a participant in our society, then I think you're foolish because, um, uh, you are really, uh, Telling us that, um, we're going to be burdens on society, and that will cost society. How ridiculous is that? When really we could be properly functioning people, making, [00:17:00] um, a contribution to not only our own lives, but the lives of the, the life of the country. And being, you know, taxpayers. And if I'm going to be a taxpayer, then I want equality under the law. Thank you very much. I must admit that I owe you a great debt of thanks. If I'd come out 20 years ago in the town that I've lived in for the last 22 years, um, my life would be very different. And I always believe that the right thing happens at the right time. It's just your personal perspective that makes it not [00:17:30] appear so. Yeah, you know, that, that, that there's a lot of gratitude. Um, the efforts that the likes of yourselves and your colleagues have made. Well, thank you. But there again, I look at the people in the Wairarapa and Carterton District who gave me the privilege of being their representative. It's a wonderful reflection on them. I mean, the Wairarapa, excuse me, a rural, conservative, provincial area. Perhaps if I'd been elected into these positions in, I don't [00:18:00] know, an urban suburb like, Gray Lynn or something like that in Auckland. People might have gone, oh yeah, those bitty folk. Uh, but no, this was real, you know, country, basic, you know, character of New Zealand. And they, knowing my backstory, were able to put that aside and actually look at the substance of the person, as opposed to the hype that was around, you know, that, you know, It was around me at the time, um, which of course was fanned a lot by, um, [00:18:30] sensational media sort of exposees, for want of a better term about it, thinking that if I hadn't, um, actually put out my, um, um, My warts and all story beforehand so that people could make their choice fairly and honestly, um, about electing me. Uh, so, uh, I moved it from me having to try and compensate for it to, well, here we are. Now you make the choice and they made a choice and [00:19:00] I think that that was just fantastic and incredibly brave and courageous and perhaps a little bit let's give the finger to society to them you know there was a bit of that too I think but oh I like the sound of her um you know at least she's straight up and that's another thing too straight up honesty you know not no fluffing around or You know, um, dancing on the head of a pin, or trying to avoid or anything, just say it like it is, and people respond to [00:19:30] that, particularly rural folks. Well, that's exactly my experience here too, um. Surprisingly enough, if you are honest and hold your own integrity and you express that, um, and you're authentic in who you are, especially I mean, there was a funny, there's a lovely, um, piece, and you might have seen it or heard it in the Georgie Girl doco that's fabulous, and, and the late Sonya Davies was doing a voiceover piece on the doco. Oh, yeah. She says, oh, there was this husky old farmer just out [00:20:00] of Dannyvac. Um, and he's voted national all his life and everything like that. But when asked who he might vote for at this election, he said, oh, I might vote for that Georgina Byer, cause she's a damn good chap. Oh, I love that. That damn good chap reference was perfect. I liked it too. Others would be offended by that, you know. We're in the trans scene, but, you know, get over yourself. Um, , you know, that is, is the way that ordinary folk out there are gonna sort of [00:20:30] organize that in their mind, and that's fine by me, , you know? Yeah. Because their intention is good. It's not bad. Sure. One of the things I would like to mention too, the listeners who live in the central Hawkes Bay where I reside, is that the acceptance that I've received personally has been absolutely overwhelming, and it shows that. We have a society with an adaptive mindset, and I think that is the way forward.[00:21:00] And you know, we as a community, too, have got to compromise and meet the society we live in. At least halfway. And so there's some give and take, you know, on that. The thing I've noticed in the young ones, that they don't necessarily want to realize that their compromise is the transition is a journey. It's not a one way. That's right. At the end of the day, we just want to be functioning, have fulfilled lives, and to be comfortable with who we are. And, um, [00:21:30] and now with these younger generations, of course, they have more of a straight direction, perhaps you or I have, um, Ever did when we were, um, making those transitions and, um, and having to also deal with society that was transitioning with us in their own way, um, to get used to it and to shake themselves of the conventions that had, um, uh, relegated us to being, um, subhuman, frankly. Sure. Um, so Gina, we're down to our last [00:22:00] minute. I'm going to invite you please to That was quick. I know, and I'd love to have another opportunity to catch more of your wonderful wisdom, but I'd like you to just share in a, in a very brief summary, what do people need now? So what we need now is, um, I think an understanding and a compassion for each other. It concerns me that even within the rainbow community and the transgender community, because you know, the term transgender now can have up [00:22:30] to what, 30 plus definitions of what a transgender person is. Uh, that we don't silo off into our particular, you know, whether we're gender fluid, transgender, trans this and that, and all of that kind of thing, and remember that our strength lies in our unity. Um, yes, we are allowed to have differences, of course, and yes, we can have differences of opinion, but let's not turn into hating each other because I don't quite see eye to eye with you. It's not helpful. Yeah. And at all, um, when that happens. [00:23:00] But just to have a healthy respect for where we come from. And at the end of the day, um, we are all just wanting to live as I've said earlier, um, comfortable fulfilled lives that are where we feel that we're not just making a contribution to our own families and our own communities. Um, and our own lives, but to the general society that we live in, and that's of benefit to everyone, to have us as good, functioning citizens, and that's what we are at the end of the day. And, um, [00:23:30] and that there's no point and no sense in keeping us, um, suppressed, oppressed, because that ends up costing society, let alone ourselves individually. And there's been too many suicides, too much death, too much trauma, too much drug abuse, too much. All of that, uh, for us to, um, you know, fall back into, into that. Thank you very much Georgina Byer for joining me today and bringing your wisdom and your insight and your history to the awareness of the people that are out there today.
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