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Ted. We came across each other at a recent screening of homosexual law reform material from 1985 and 1986. And I'm just wondering, uh, to begin with you you at at the end of that screening you spoke very eloquently about maybe how far we haven't come Tell me about that. So, uh, the screening, um, was, uh, to give some context was for a, uh, a law school event. I'm a law student studying at Victoria University. And obviously, uh, this [00:00:30] year, 2016 is the is the 30 years since the, uh um homosexual law Reform passed, um, in 1986. Um, And I guess, uh, some of the things that I would talk I was talking about as a um as a younger a member of the queer community in New Zealand is the areas that we still have to work towards, um, to achieve full equity and equality in New Zealand for queer people. Um, I think personally, when it comes to my [00:01:00] envisioning of where we need to be going forward, um, there are three different branches. There's, um, legislative change. So stuff like the homosexual law reform and marriage equality over the past few years have been, um, progress in that area. Um, then we also have, uh so what? I would call social acceptance. So the ability and that's sort of more entrenched tackling some of the more entrenched ideas around. Sort of homophobia and queer phobia. Um, allowing [00:01:30] everybody to see queer people as, uh, being, uh, equitable and equal and in in the same way that other people are. Um, and probably the third area of, um, of importance to focus on is, uh, international diplomacy and international advocacy for queer people around the world. Um, and how New Zealand can play a role in, uh, advocating for queer people overseas. One of the comments you made at the end of the screening was that, uh, yes, [00:02:00] we do have law reform, but where can a gay couple hold hands in New Zealand? Exactly. Well, um, we do, Obviously, as you said, we have, We have law reform. So it's entirely legal for gay people to be able to walk down the street and hold hands. And if they so wish, um, and of course, it's legal for them to be married. Um, however, uh, and this probably comes down to what I was talking about with social acceptance is, uh, queer people in New Zealand, [00:02:30] particularly gay people of, uh, of diverse sexual orientation are not able to walk down the street, uh, without first assessing the risk. Um, so you'll be walking home at night with your boyfriend or your girlfriend or your partner. However, you choose to describe them and you're a queer person, and you'll be constantly looking ahead of you along your journey as to whether there is any dangers ahead. So, for example, you're coming home at night after going out drinking. Let's say, um, you're walking down Courtney [00:03:00] Place, um, in Wellington and you know you're looking around. Are you thinking to yourself? What about that bar over there? There's a group of men hanging around outside that pub. Do I feel comfortable walking past them, holding hands with the person that I am sort of in a relationship with or you're walking down and there's a shortcut home, but it's down a dark alleyway, and you think to yourself, Is it safe for us to be able to go down there as a couple? Um, these are all things that queer people are constantly thinking when they're walking down the road. Uh, particularly [00:03:30] at night. But during other times during the day, Um, also, I think even if you live in a particularly nice area of town, let's say you go out, um, shopping for the day. And you go to, like, a posh department store or something like that and people will still notice. Um, and I think true equity will be people not noticing and people just being OK with it. Even if I said posh department store, you know, people look and they say, Isn't it nice to see that gay couple out and about together that's still [00:04:00] noticing? That's still making us something other than the norm. And I think there is some. You know, there is something special about queer people. I think we are different from the norm, but I think there's no reason to treat us any differently socially, that is. So. Have you ever been either queer bashed or, um, had abuse thrown at you regularly? Um, I remember when, particularly at high school, I think. Now, Um oh, but then again, I don't know. It's I keep on [00:04:30] telling myself like, Oh, I'm a you know, I'm a I'm a 21 year old man. Now I'm quite tall. I don't think anyone would want to pick a fight for me, but then again, um, recently in the past six months, I was walking down, um, down, uh, to a work function late at night. I was, you know, sort of dressed quite smartly because of the place that I work. Um, and I walked down a, um, sort of an alleyway, sort of a shortcut down the road. And I remember, sort of, um, being hassled by a group of men, uh, wanting [00:05:00] to, uh, have my wallet and various sort of slurs were thrown at me then, um, and of course, there's nothing. Um Well, I don't know. There's obviously something visually, uh, about queer people that makes them stand out, even when they're when they're by themselves That makes people feel the need to harass, um, each other. I think for me, the main extent of my queer, um, bashing or queer abuse comes from a from high school. Um, and, [00:05:30] uh, I think that would be common for a lot of a lot of young people nowadays is that often it takes place in high schools and high schools aren't safe for queer people. So what What years were you in high school? Um, I was at a, uh, Catholic, uh um college, sort of mid two thousands to I think I graduated high school in 2012, 6 years. I think. Yeah, [00:06:00] I've been out of uni for too long, so I mean, that is still, like, 20 years post law reform. So you were still encountering quite a lot of of houses, then? Definitely, Definitely. And I think if you ask anyone coming from a single sex high schools, I mean, I went to a coed school, so it was a little bit easier. Um, but if you ask anyone going to single sex schools, especially asking gay men who went to single sex, uh, high [00:06:30] schools, their experiences are horrific. Um, and I think this is a really common thing. This is happening to, um, all the time, and I don't think it's just, um, gay people. I think trans people as well. Although trans people can also be gay as well. We You know what I mean? It's not just, um gay men. It's, uh it's people of all sorts of diverse sexual orientations and gender identities or lack of So Were you out at college? Yes. I came out when I was 13. [00:07:00] It was, um, an interesting experience. I've always known who I am and what I am for, um, wealth. Ever since I can really remember, um, And I think I grew up in an environment at home that was very accepting of, you know, difference. And I think for a while, especially when you're younger, you I don't really think you have necessarily an orientation or or any form, let alone a sexual orientation. But I think there's definitely, [00:07:30] um, signs that, you know, people are different and people, um, are queer or have a queerness about them. Um, and I think I was very lucky in being able to pinpoint what that was, um, at such an early age. But then again, I also think, you know, it's at that stage where everybody's kind of, you know, 13, 14 people begin to sort of think about things in a sort of sexual light. You know, straight people do it as well, and I don't see why any reason as to queer. People should have to wait [00:08:00] five years to be able to fully realise their sexual identity and, like, um, straight people. So for me, I came out when I was 13. Um, and what does that mean coming out at that age? I mean, well, it's a for me. It's a it's it it mean it meant, uh, putting friendships at risk. It meant putting personal safety at risk. Um, especially considering that I went to a Catholic high school, Um, which isn't the most, Uh, even if it's a liberal Catholic high school, it's still going to be difficult. [00:08:30] Um, if you live in a small town or if you live rurally, it means putting yourself at risk in terms of there's very little support networks out there for people. Um, it really is like stepping out of to to repeat a cliche. It's like stepping out of out of a box. Um, but it can be a very lonely experience for some. I also think it's quite an empowering experience. I'm not necessarily convinced by arguments that say queer people shouldn't have to come out. I mean, I don't think we [00:09:00] should have to do anything. But I think that coming out for a lot of queer people, that self affirmation of I am this or this is how I identify this is what I am is a very empowering experience for people. I also don't think it's a one time event, so, you know, I might have come out when I when I was 13. But we're coming out every single day of our lives all the way through our lives. And our, uh you know, our sexual identities and our gender identities develop and change and morph all throughout our lives. [00:09:30] Um, I think it's interesting comparing my experience as a queer person and as an out queer person. Uh, in high school, compared to once I left high school, I think there was, You know, there was a massive sort of, uh, maturity shift there. Um, so, you know, there's always different, Sort of, uh, it's like a rose. There's lots of different sort of petals to to the to the stem if you think metaphorically like I do. And so how did how How was it for you coming out [00:10:00] at 13? Oh, quite difficult. Um, because of the fact that there were no other out people at my high school. Um, it was me. Um, I knew there were other queer people at high school, but it wasn't my job to tell anyone who they were or what they were. It was, you know, that was their right, and I would keep that secret. Um, but I was definitely the only one who was out until about two or three months before we all left in year 13. Um, broke up for uni. So, um, it was [00:10:30] an incredibly isolating experience at times. Um, not having support networks, Um, and I think it's interesting, because at the time, I thought I was like, Right, Well, this is just something that I'm doing, and I just sort of get on with it. But once you leave, uh, that environment you I think a lot of that pain and a lot of that damage catches up with you. And for a long time when I first left high school, there was a lot of, uh, catching up on a [00:11:00] lot of, um, pain that I didn't allow myself to feel because I had to put it to one side because I just had to keep on going. It was, you know, it's like survival. You have to put it underneath the rock. You have to deal with it later because what matters every day is getting up and doing what you would normally do. It must be incredibly hard knowing that there might have been other gay or queer people at school, but they not being out. So it was kind of like a kind of this hidden. It was hard, Um, and I think [00:11:30] it's interesting. I don't judge anybody who decides to remain closeted because obviously there is that real social danger. However, I think for a lot, and this is goes back to what I was saying about my ma sort of the maturity aspect of leaving high school for a long time I had to come to terms with a lot of internal bitterness towards those people. Those people that I knew were were actually, you know, closeted and uh often [00:12:00] at times were quite homophobic towards me and, uh in in a way that was, uh, acting in a sense of self preservation. And, um, I think I think there's still a little part of me that is quite bitter and angry towards them. Um, but it's about, uh, moving past that and asking what is the bigger picture? And actually, uh, you know, it it is hard to be closeted. I think it's even harder to be the only person who's [00:12:30] out. And if it meant that those people were able to feel like they could come out because they'd seen, you know, they'd seen the worst of it all. And the storm had passed in their minds because they've seen it. Sort of, uh, um, put up against somebody else. Then. If that means that they are living a happier life, then I don't really mind. So were there any, um, like, queer? Straight alliances or no, nothing. What about externally from school? Were there not support groups? No support groups? [00:13:00] Nothing. Even even if there was anything it would probably be. It probably would have been located solely at the university at a university level. And then, um, I seem to remember, um, expressing a desire to go along to one of those events. And, um, a person close to me telling me that Oh, you wouldn't want to go to that because there'd be older game in there that might think that you might be sort of a bit of a catch. So I wouldn't be comfortable with you going to that. Um and that was from someone that I wouldn't [00:13:30] regard as homophobic, but still made a blatantly homophobic comment. And it stuck with me for a long time because I think it shows actually how ingrained people's assumptions and attitudes about people are. Um, so no, there were no, There were no support networks whatsoever. None. What about the Internet? Were you getting any information from me? Um, well, it's interesting. I, um one of the things that I, uh one of the reasons why I I study, um law [00:14:00] is, uh is because I'm interested in queer issues. And one of the papers that I'm doing at the moment is on law and sexuality. That's why I was talking at that class. And I have recently done a, um you've been writing a a sort of a, uh, an essay about the the influence of gay porn on a on a young gay people. And it's very interesting. It's very interesting. II. I think I start the essay by asking my lecturer to clutch up holes because I'm gonna go there. No. Holds [00:14:30] bad, but, um, I, I think. And I think it's interesting that you mention Internet because, um, I do think that, uh, and this is one of the things that I obviously have been talking about for a while. Is that because queer men are not allowed to express any form of sexual or sort of romantic, um, development right from an early age? You know, uh, you think of the typical sort of high school sort of development. Like, you know, you might have your first girlfriend, and [00:15:00] you're not really, you know, you're not really, um, in a relationship. You might just, like text each other and, you know, it's a thing. Or then like you move on and then you might be 15. You might, you know, have a girlfriend that you might hold hands with. And, you know, it sort of progresses along that route and straight people are allowed to develop that form of healthy sexual development. But gay people aren't because we're told right from an early age that we're not allowed to be gay and that being gay is something that we should be ashamed of and that it's unnatural. [00:15:30] Um, so when people turn 18, they they they know nothing about relationships. They know nothing very or very little about healthy sexual relationships and the one area that they can find it is online in the form of, uh, Internet porn. And I think that can be incredibly damaging to a lot of queer people because I think it embeds, um, certain ideas about sex that I think can be quite unhealthy. But that's just my opinion. [00:16:00] Yeah. So Internet Internet sources were obviously I mean, you you have things like the Trevor Project, which, um, has a fantastic, um, resources available. There's I don't feel like there was very much for New Zealand youth, um, in terms of support networks. But there were, you know, there were things like the the tracker project and sort of, um, various, um, things like that that were available. And I guess nothing actually beats face to face. You know, either meeting up with somebody for a coffee [00:16:30] or doing whatever. Exactly. And a lot of the queer people that I knew were much older, so they were often friends of my parents or, um Well, actually, they only ever were friends of my parents. They are often much older, um, and often lesbian, which is great. Like I love I love, um, my parents, lesbian friends, I think they're amazing, Um, and incredibly supportive and wonderful people. But often you need someone. I think you need someone like you to ever really [00:17:00] feel like that. I mean, I if I if I'd had, you know, a gay uncle or something, that would have been the best thing in the world. But sadly, I'm not blessed with such a gift. I'll have to be a gay uncle. And And how did you navigate the whole kind of kind of religion and sexuality thing? Well, I'm, uh I'm not religious, and I never have been, Um, and my parents are not religious. Um, [00:17:30] so I always entered the school as sort of the part of the, you know, 10 or 15% that, uh, were not. And they had to take on because, you know, because of the because of the law and stuff like that. So, for me, religion was never AAA burden on my mind. Um, although there were elements within the school that were difficult when it came to queer rights and how that related to religion. So I think the school was very careful [00:18:00] to not say anything expressly negative because I don't think they would have gotten away with it, frankly, um, because it wasn't fully private. I think there were definitely people that held very firmly held religious beliefs against queer people. And I think it I very quickly cottoned on to who they were. And I think they very quickly cottoned on to what I was. Um, so, uh, mutual avoidance was always quite healthy. Um, I, I think. I think, um, [00:18:30] it's interesting. For example, Lewis of Walls, Marriage, Equality Bill was sort of coming to its first, uh, you know, first important stages in, uh, 2012, which was my last year at high school. And I remember being all over the news and people were talking about it in my year group. But it wasn't something that was allowed to be discussed at all class, and a lot of people brought it up in our and our education classes, and, uh, we were told, Oh, well, we're not going to be talking about that. That's not relevant to what we're talking about today. So, [00:19:00] uh, there was just a complete It was It was like a cone of silence over everything. That's probably the best way of describing it. Yeah, I think I think one of the hardest things for me, and it was sort of one of my memories was, uh I mean, I've always been quite an ambitious and politically active person, so I ran, uh, for board of trustees, Rep. Um, at my school, um, And I remember a teacher. Uh um when I asked for their vote, um, telling me that they didn't think that I embodied the values [00:19:30] of the school. Um, because of who I was. Um, and, uh, that was not a particularly pleasant experience. Um, and I'm not entirely surprised that that was something that happened, but it was what it was. And, you know, you just keep on going. Um, yeah. What about your family? How how were they? Um, my family were OK. Um uh, I think my parents knew, uh, for a long time, [00:20:00] and I think it's interesting because I think I was always taught that it's completely normal. and completely fine to be queer. Um, even before I realised that that's what I was myself. Um, so I think, uh, that for me was a matter of Well, if that's the case, then I don't feel the need to be, have to nail anything particular upon myself, and, um and unfortunately, because the world that we live in I don't really think that works. So eventually [00:20:30] I had to sit down with my with my with one or other of my parents and just say, Look, this is what I am And, um, you know, this is this is you know, this is why I am I am. And I think, um, you know, I, I don't blame, uh, my family for that I. I don't think that that's II. I almost don't think people can help it because that's the society that we live in. But I think that, um, at least on a family level, if you're [00:21:00] taught that there's there's nothing wrong with being queer there, you can just be completely whatever you are. And that's absolutely fine. Then. Uh, as far as I'm concerned, I think Children should be able to bring home a boyfriend or a girlfriend or, you know, or a partner that they that they care about. And it should just be something that happens, not something that they have to declare. Um, so that's, you know, an issue that I think, um is important. Um, I think it's also difficult when you are the only visible queer person in your family. As I said, I don't have any, [00:21:30] um, queer relatives that I know of. So being the topic of conversation is difficult, and especially if you know that the conversations are happening. But you're not privy to them. You know that. Everybody's saying. But what about such and such? Has he come out yet? And you know that sort of thing. And it's just like, Oh, I can't be bothered being talked about over cups of tea and ginger nuts with family members. It's not something that I'm interested in. So [00:22:00] you're using the word queer. And so I'm wondering, why do you use that word? I think it's interesting because a lot of people don't like the word queer. Um, I have a few friends that are, uh, LGBT, um, and don't like the word queer because traditionally obviously queer is a slur against has been a slur, but in recent times it's been reclaimed. Um, I use the word queer because I feel like it's very all encompassing. I feel like, um, it doesn't put [00:22:30] boundaries or labels on anyone. It just makes it just embodies us as a group without necessarily sort of having to define us. Um, because I think, for example, example, the term LGBT is inherently. When you begin sort of categorising everything, it automatically is exclusive towards certain groups of people. For example, LGBT is literally lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans, transgender or transsexual. But, you know, there are obviously other groups in our rainbow community [00:23:00] that, um, do not fit into any of those categories. You know, you have intersex people or you have, um, a gender people or you have asexuals people. Um, I also use the word queer because I think, um, we need to move beyond the point where we have to justify and label ourselves to straight people. We can just be ourselves and whether you know, as a gay man, you know, or a queer man as I like to call myself, I don't like to I don't want to place [00:23:30] a restriction upon my upon myself to say that maybe one day I'll have a girlfriend Who knows who knows? I you know, I will never know. I hope to live a long and fruitful life, and anything could happen. But I think as soon as we as queer people start putting labels upon ourselves, straight society will hold us to those labels in a really restrictive manner. And I think we need to transcend that for want of a better word. Yeah. You were saying [00:24:00] just before about marriage equality and what What were your thoughts on marriage? Equality? I thought it was a great thing. Um, I think marriage equality, uh, is really important. I think that a lot of people see marriage as being a very inherently oppressive, uh, system. Uh, and I would not disagree with them on that. I think for years it's been the, uh, tool of oppression and marginalisation against women. I also think against queer people, but I think that [00:24:30] there is a lot to be said for marriage. I think that, uh, being married is, uh if somebody wants to have that, then I don't see why anyone should be denied it. Um, I think one of the things that I have struggled with, though, is how, uh, marriage equality and and I realise that we're only a small group in society, and we can only, uh when it comes to sort of air time talking about issues. It's very difficult for people to be able to [00:25:00] think about lots of different issues at once. Uh, so I think the fallout possible consequence of marriage equality was that other issues in the queer community, especially for trans people, um, were put to one side. And I hope that in the post marriage equality world that the queer community starts to move towards, uh, fighting for rights of people who are, you know, trans and intersex and gender or asexuals, um, in [00:25:30] the same fervour that they were for, um, for fighting for, um, marriage. Equality? That was interesting, wasn't it? In the, um, 1985 86 footage where those same kind of, uh, statements were being made in in terms of Well, actually, um, the gay people need to come along and need to support other issues besides law reform. Well, one of the I think one of the most important things about, uh, homosexual law reform is that it actually acted as a catalyst for a wider queer [00:26:00] rights movement. Um, it put queer rights on the agenda, Uh, for the first time in a, uh, in a really, uh, symbolic way. Um, and I think that it has progressed significantly legislatively. It's progressed a lot. I think socially, we've come a long way, but I think we've got a way to go yet. Um, and I think that is gonna take more than a few bills in parliament. It's going to take generations [00:26:30] of hard work. So, being born in the nineties, how did you kind of react or relate to that material from the mid eighties? Um, well, I'm British, so I. I always found it quite shocking that New Zealand was so late coming to homosexual law reform. Of course, it was, uh, you know, a big, uh it was, uh, the sixties in the in the UK. Um, and my family being British, you know, it's obviously, uh, been legal in the UK [00:27:00] for, um for much, much longer. Almost a whole generation. Um, of gay people, uh, were allowed to be sort of who they were before people in New Zealand actually changed. I don't when you think about it, 1987 wasn't really that long ago. Um, if you think if you think that I was born in 94 and it was sort of passed in, uh, 86. Um, I think was it Royal in 87 or something like that? I don't know. I think it was the end of 86 August 36. [00:27:30] Yeah. So, uh, so it would have been for eight years, which isn't, you know, isn't much. It's the one term one lifetime of the average government in New Zealand. Eight or nine years? Um, so not not that long at all. Really? Um, I think looking at the footage, I was shocked at how well how openly, awful people were. Um, but then again, those people still exist today. [00:28:00] They've just moved because society has said you're no longer allowed to say these sort of things about queer people. So they've regressed, um, into areas where they can be just as vile as they were back then. You know, we have family first talking about, uh, Trans people in bathrooms and how they're going to abuse Children and all of that nonsense, the same people as that, you know, as were in the documentary saying vile things about queer people then and it's the same people. Now, um, [00:28:30] we just kind of keep on fighting them. Another kind of vile episode in in, um, New Zealand's history. I guess it was civil unions with destiny Church. Do you remember that? Yep. Definitely. In fact, I probably remember it. Uh, quite, uh, quite well, Um, even though it would have been Oh, God, it was 2004 or five. So I wasn't out at that stage, but obviously sort of was very aware about feelings and and and clinicians and I definitely knew [00:29:00] queer people. Uh, I remember it being on the news. I remember it being quite frightening, actually, um, even if I wasn't entirely self aware, I think as a human being, just watching it unfold. Um, the particularly the, um the march down the street by, um by, um, the destiny church people, um, was quite frightening because I think it was a very strong statement against equal rights in New Zealand [00:29:30] and I think, as a very young person. And it was it was Well, I mean, as a older person, it probably would have been scary as well. But, you know, I think I think that did leave an impression on me. And I think anyone who remembers that will probably remember it for the rest of their lives as being something that was quite scary. You were saying earlier that you're now studying law. What drew you to law? What drew me to law? I asked these questions [00:30:00] every day when I'm stuck in the law library studying for some bloody contract exam. Um, what drew me to law? Well, I've always been, um, an activist at heart. Um, um, I've always been politically active, Um, a bit of a rabble rouser. Um, and I guess I came to the sort of thought process at the end of my time in high school as to what I wanted to do with myself. And I have always been interested in politics, as I said, and I think [00:30:30] I saw Law as a well, I. I saw it as something that could help me move into an area that I really wanted to in terms of my political activism and general knowledge about sort of legislative change and everything. It's interesting. I think everybody comes to law differently. Um, it's a bit of a bit of a brutal old process going through law school. A lot of people do it because they want, um, you know, they want the money. It [00:31:00] it's quite well paid. Um, a lot of people do it because I think they do it because their family has always done it. And no one in my family has done law. As far as I'm aware, I think I did it because I want to make the world a better place. And I think, uh, having the knowledge that a law degree can give you especially if you're a queer person, gives you a, uh, an extra tool in your box to be able to, um, go out there and fight the good fight. So what are the fights that you are kind [00:31:30] of most keenly interested in? Not necessarily queer, but well, um, I believe that, uh, queer rights are one of the most important things in society. II, I believe strongly in fighting for queer rights. Um, I'm a bit of an old school socialist, so I think that workers' rights are incredibly important. Um, I think that, uh, for well, II, I think, [00:32:00] uh, as a man, I think it's important to know, uh, what you can do in terms of supporting women's rights. I think women's rights is extremely important. I think that is because of the fact that I, uh, for many years as a queer man, Um, growing up queer was always a very dangerous environment. And I think that, uh, women were usually a lot better. Um, and often were a lot better [00:32:30] with me and a lot better. And with, um, knowing about, um, the struggle that I had to go through And, um and I think I often felt very, uh, accepted by women. And, uh, I mean, I'm not saying that there aren't homophobic women out there and I don't want to make sort of women's rights about me in any way. Um, but what I will say is that I do feel like I have a debt to pay in terms of some of the amazing women out there that have helped me along my journey [00:33:00] and I think it would be incredibly selfish for me to not at least say or offer. What can I do to help you? Um, even if that means sitting in the corner and baking bread, um, or sort of muffins or something for a, you know, feminist meeting. And then me sort of running off down to the shops and buying wine and no, no, no. Like, you know, even if even if that helps II I think it's incredibly important for the queer community and sort of the wider feminist movement to join forces [00:33:30] and burn the patriarchy. I don't know. Those are the Those are probably the I mean, there's lots of different things, but those those are three of the ones that I seem to be talking about the most, and in terms of, um, queer, um, legislation. What are the things that need to be worked on currently? Well, uh, I think, uh, we have, uh we have a long way to go when it comes to the Human Rights Act. So this government [00:34:00] has not taken any steps to changing the Human Rights Act to include any form of, uh, recognition of gender identity or gender expression. Um, they are committed to thinking that sex is encompasses encompasses gender identity, which it doesn't. Um and they make that statement without any support from any queer thinkers or any sort of queer evidence. They don't actually make that decision based on our lived [00:34:30] experiences as a queer community. I think if we look at the laws around birth certificates for trans people, um, the the requirements are appalling. They require trans people to basically prove themselves before a court of law and then sub, and then they're subjected to various forms of medical examination, which I think is degrading and inhuman. And I think, uh, that that law needs to change. Um, I think that there needs to be massive, uh, [00:35:00] legislative reform around, um, around some of our adoption laws. I think it needs to be modernised. I think that it does affect queer people because I think, you know, you look, uh, at the discussions that were happening the other day. Um and I think it was Jacinda Ardern and, um that, um, man Mike Mccrorey from her family first were discussing the, um, the laws and, uh, sort of de facto sort of gay couples. And, [00:35:30] um, these laws obviously still affect queer people. And in some way, um, and they challenge people's ideas about whether where people should be able to, um should be able to, um, adopt Children or not. So those are three main ones that we definitely need to be looking at immediately, I think wider legislative action. I think looking at the court process in terms of how, uh, trans people are treated within [00:36:00] the justice system, um, you look at the way that trans people are treated when they're sent to prison. Um, they are not allowed to be sent to a present that conforms with their gender identity immediately. It used to They used to be sent, uh, to places. Um, uh, they are assigned with their biological sex, and then they weren't so it was very difficult for them to be able to leave. Uh, but now, uh, you're able to apply to change, but you get sent to that prison [00:36:30] that you know, performs with the biological sex first. Um, and we know that, um, during that time period between when they're first sent there and when they apply to change that, um, abuse and sexual assault can happen and that it does happen. And this government has done nothing about about that, um, to date. Um, and I look forward to seeing some changes in that because I think it's really important you mentioned earlier about, um, international diplomacy. Yeah, and [00:37:00] I was wondering if you could talk about that. Well, um, New Zealand was one of the founding members of the United Nations, and I think one of the things that the UN has always been if we look at international law, the human rights law, um, has always embodied, uh, rights for humans. Um, in terms of you have a right not to be, uh, restricted of your freedom of speech. You have a right to, um, to not be unjustly sort of, [00:37:30] uh, imprisoned. You have a right to not be tortured. Um, and I think it's interesting. One of the, uh, one of the now presumptive Democratic nominee for, uh, US. President Hillary Clinton gave a speech at the I think it might have been the Human Rights Commission. I'm not, uh I'm not quite sure what, uh, organisation it was, but, uh, she said, um, that gay rights are human rights and human rights are gay rights. And whilst the people, uh, in the room, uh, drafting the nine in 1947 the the [00:38:00] Bill of Rights or the sort of the international, um, piece of legislation around, uh, human rights might not have had gay people in mind. Our rights are still enshrined within that document. And, uh, in New Zealand, Um, as a progressive, uh, first world country, I think it's our responsibility to be fighting for the rights of queer people overseas that are infringed upon by their governments. Um, I think [00:38:30] that can be done through, um, advocacy in terms of the United Nations. I think we can do more for accepting refugees to New Zealand. Um, and I think we can take moral stances. I think, for example, this government has been really keen to enter into progressively more corrupt deals with the Saudi Arabian government. The Saudi Arabian government that beheads queer people and supports [00:39:00] extreme groups like Isis, which think that throwing LGBT people off roofs is a solution to the queer problem, as they call it. And I think we can actually take a really hard stance, and we can say no. This is not something that we are going to be doing anymore. As we're not going to deal with you as a country, we're not going to engage in any form of trade with you as a country If you continue to abuse human rights because, as you know, Hillary Clinton said human rights are gay rights and gay rights are human rights. [00:39:30] Hm. I think maybe sort of attached to that as well. When you look at New Zealand's role as a I mean, one of the things that we seem to always be talking about is how much of a, uh uh a sporting nation we are And how, um, and how we and how we are, uh, one of the world's best nations when it comes to, um, athletic competition. And, uh, as we know, gay rights internationally and domestically are not recognised on the sports [00:40:00] field. And I think I think it's interesting there was the Winter Games in Sochi, which was I think it was 2013 or 2014. Um, and, uh, this was at the time where the Russian government was, uh, making, uh, advances towards a really, uh, restrictive, Uh legislative framework for queer People and their advocacy so called anti gay propaganda laws. Um, and New Zealand continued [00:40:30] to send, uh, athletes to that games. Uh, despite the fact that there was, uh, an international boycott by various members of the of you know, the sporting community. We look at artists, uh, and sort of singers and pop stars who actually won't go to Russia won't perform in Russia because they object to, um to anti gay laws. And I don't see why New Zealand as a as a country that, you know, since the 19 eighties we've been having, we've had an independent [00:41:00] foreign policy, you know, since the nuclear since nuclear free in New Zealand has always said we have we have an independent foreign policy that is about New Zealand and not influenced by other state actors. And I think it's important that we stick to that when it comes to gay rights. And I don't see why gay rights and queer rights should be any different from nuclear issues or, I don't know, trade issues. It was footage from 30 years ago that brought us together in terms of, um, seeing the screening together [00:41:30] and I'm just wondering as a as a kind of final question, can you project 30 years into the future and and describe what your ideal world is is like my ideal world in 30 years time. Uh oh, gosh. Well, uh, my ideal world in 30 years time would be where I think that's impossible to answer. Actually, I have to be honest, because we have, you know, we have no idea what's around the corner. And, um, as as we see, different [00:42:00] generations of people are having to deal with different issues at different times of their lives that, um, that past generations will never have to deal with. Um, we look at the experiences of queer people today, or we look at the experiences of queer people in five years time compared to, you know, 30 years in the past. And I think we're having to deal with very different circumstances and different challenges. So I think it's really hard to be able to predict what we would [00:42:30] want in 30 years time. I think I think for me, though ideally it would be, and I and I am such an idealist would be a world where, um people, regardless of their gender identity or sexual orientation, can feel like they can live freely and equitably in society as, um, independent people, um not feel like they're restricted or told [00:43:00] that they can't be who they are because of some people's attitudes. I think that's and I think that's what a lot of people want and I think we're we're getting there. You know, I, I as I say, we do have a long way to go. But I think we are making steady progress, and I think it's I think it's important to keep that goal in mind, even though some people will call us idealists. Actually, we know that the world where queer people are treated equally will look no different than the world we currently [00:43:30] live in. Today you know there will still be you know you'll still get into an argument with your parents, and you know you'll still not want to get up in the morning because it's too cold or you'll still get into an argument with that man because he stole your parking space. I don't know all those sort of issues will life will continue on being just as boring as it is when queer people have the right to be able to live as free and equal citizens as everybody else.
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