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So my name is Isaac. I am the curator at uh and I descent from and wait in the South Island and on my father's side of the far north. Uh, I come across the term, uh, probably in the late nineties, and at the time, um, it wasn't a common term, but it was the term that was being reclaimed by Maori and specifically the term Taku [00:00:30] I heard about it, uh, was associated to the story of and and I remember hearing the story and to after he married, lamented his and I was talking about his intimate companion of the same gender. When you say it was being reclaimed in the 19 nineties, who was, um, who was kind of spearheading that. So from [00:01:00] what I understand, um, it was pioneers like Elizabeth who sort of even earlier than the nineties was in the eighties, that they really sort of rediscovered that term. And, uh, in its vanilla understanding, if if you were to google it, it talks about Takata, uh, being a companion of the same sex, Uh, but in a broader sense Now, um, it's understood to be anyone, um who doesn't identify as heterosexual [00:01:30] in the Maori community. So it's, uh, a large sort of layer of the Maori community that can identify with that. And that's another complex layer in the rainbow community as well. And so I guess for people who finally heard that story and realised that there was something that had been lost from our culture that they actually fit into that was normalised precolonial. Uh, it was something that could really relate to and identify. So, uh, it would be people, um, Maori who didn't identify with the normal, [00:02:00] um, gender or minority norms, Um, that were common at the time. What does mean to you? So to me, um, I take it for me. I really take it as anyone who doesn't identify as heterosexual. So, um, it is that huge, complex community and lay layers of people who really don't fit into the norm. Um, or the norm is, I guess straight society would define it. Uh, so, yeah, is anything? So if you [00:02:30] identify as anything that is not straight, you are. If you are a Maori and welcome, we're sitting, uh, within the National Museum to Papa today, and I'm wondering, does Papa have in the collection. I think really to understand that is you kind of have to have a con. You kind of have to have an understanding of the collection as a whole. So recognising [00:03:00] that there's 27,000 in the Maori collection. Uh, so there is 100 lifetimes and 100 years of research in there. Uh, and when we're looking at the or the that are collected, pre contact, uh, they were collected without the narratives or association that made them special to people. So Well, I think undoubtedly there is in our collection is identifying them can be more complex than that. And it's recognising that collecting was done, Um, primarily in [00:03:30] the 18 hundreds, Um, usually by white European males who identified as straight. And they were interested in things that fit, um, popular narratives at the time. So there was the dusky Maori maidens and the dry feather cloaks. Um, it was the noble savage warrior with his weapons. Uh, so we have great representation of those things, but we don't have great representation, um, of anything to do with, uh, um, Children and the toys they played with maternal health childbirth. [00:04:00] Uh, the recent revival of the The Baskets. Babies sleeping. We don't actually have one from pre contact in the collection. It was something that wasn't considered important. Uh, And now, when we look at the history of Taku, which we know is actively suppressed by missionaries, uh, even if there is in there that, uh, are associated with, um, that they're not going to have those narratives attached to them. Uh, what I can tell you is [00:04:30] that those do exist in other places. Uh, there is a waka, which is a treasure chest or kind of looks like a little, um, jewellery box. There's one in the Auckland museum that depicts several females engaging in different sex acts. Um, and it's in LA with, so it's it's a precious object. So it's something that a lot of attention was paid paid to. And there's one in the British Museum that has the same depictions of men. And so we know that those Tonga are out there. [00:05:00] Um, and there's probably more stories about those too. Um, than there is actual physical evidence. So there are stories of which were son in half to, um, take the pretty part, um, and leave the things that were unpopular. Um, like anything that depicts yeah. So they were actively destroyed, hidden and discouraged from being collected as well. And that's just part of the suppression that came along with colonisation. Can you recall [00:05:30] the first time you actually set eyes on those two? You've just talked about to actually see a physical representation of Ah, yeah, So I've actually physically seen the one in the Auckland Museum and it's beautiful. It's stunningly carved, and there is a lot of attention to detail as well. So what we do know is that pre contact Maori were sex positive. And I say that in the sense that sex wasn't seen as anything [00:06:00] as taboo or as a natural part of life was just a fact. Um, and that's the attitude that's carried on through Maori art as well. Uh, and the one in the British Museum, I've only ever seen photos of it, but again, it's the same. It's a complex piece of art, and it was really special to someone, um, and it normalises narratives that we've already well, that we've been taught not to be comfortable with. Um, so they were out there so um, now has written about both, and I know she has got [00:06:30] quite a few articles and stuff as well. Um, so for anyone who's interested in having a look at them, um, they're out there. We briefly mentioned collectors, and I wonder, do you think the collections actually tell us more about the collectors than about the actual I think, for pre, uh, pre contact that were collected by collectors? Uh, it's kind of a two edged sword at one point. We're grateful because we have so much representation [00:07:00] that survived in private collections. But it's not true representations of the whole scope of what life was really like pre contact. So it does speak to collectors and what was popular and what they could trade and what they could sell. Uh, but representation as a whole is something that we continue to have to work on, and it's just a really important to look and understand that we were more than weapons or stone tools or pretty pieces of pono is that there's a complex system of life that existed [00:07:30] pre contact and not all of that was collected or the stories about it, uh, that are told now are not necessarily truthful or correct. So it's about challenging existing narratives and broadening people's understanding. Can you tell me who who were the main collectors at the time? So Webster Kenneth Webster is someone that we have a huge collection from, Uh, we have a huge collection from a man named [00:08:00] Oldman who existed never actually come to New Zealand but lived overseas. Um, in England had a house full of from New Zealand and the Pacific. And there's stories about him in World War Two. during the air raids, him and his wife would sit on the roof and pour buckets or put it down whenever there were fires. And because he did that his house was the only one that survived in the neighbourhood. Um, And when he died, uh, his all went up for auction and they were brought by the New Zealand government and spread [00:08:30] between the four main museums. And they are some of the oldest Tonga that we have in our collection. A lot of them are collected by cock as well. Uh, so it is those collectors who did keep things safe. Um, and we can learn a lot from them, but also recognising that they are other things out there as well. They tell their own story. And you were saying it also about missionaries. So there was a strong missionary Enforce? Yeah. So part of the colonisation process in a [00:09:00] did involve missionary. So it involves setting up Christian missions in schools. Uh, one of the things that happened there is we see a lot of carvings that have removed noses and removed penises or genitalia. Uh, we also see a lot less carving of women. Um, from that time period after contact with missionaries. Uh, so when we look at the removal of the nose or the, uh, for common Maori greeting of the or the sharing of breath, um, it wasn't really [00:09:30] understood by early missionaries, so it was seen as a form of witchcraft. Um, so cutting the nose off was one thing, and they're not nicely cut off. They're actually quite brutally hacked off. Um, and penises were the same. So anything sexually obscene? Um, was removed. And for me, when I look at carvings like that and in Astori, there is a corner that has three of them. Uh, it's about stripping spiritual identity and sexual identity. Um, so it could be rebuilt in the European context. [00:10:00] Um, and this was done under the age, um, before the church was important to a lot of Maori, because today it is, um, but it sort of come as a consequence, um, of things, um, in this case, spiritual and sexual identity. And there's still consequences that we live with today and II I could imagine retaining the Tonga, but actually defacing it. It is really, um, an assertion of power, isn't it? Absolutely. [00:10:30] So it's, uh, these are ancestral representations, um, of people. So these are ancestors that would have been really important to people. Uh, the other thing about these three in particular, um, that I'm talking about is they're all from different areas around New Zealand, so and they're all from different time periods. So what that tells us is that this was something that was happening over the whole country. Um, recently, we did a back of house tour, um, with [00:11:00] a and they come through back of house with the intention to write something that reflected on their own identity and experience. And it was these three pieces that esa chose to write about, um, seeing similarities of their own identity. Um, and the mutilation to the body parts. Um, so they wrote a poem for us, which has recently gone on to te papa LGBT Q I plus hub. Um, and it's about reclaiming a lot of those narratives, Uh, but [00:11:30] also not hiding that they've happened that they still have an effect on people today. And so they what? These have been defaced. Uh, they still have stories and experiences and things that they can teach us. Are you able to tell me a wee bit more about the, um, the the LGBTI hub that that you have on on the website? Yeah. So the LGBT Q I plus Hub, uh, is basically the brainchild of two of our history curators who [00:12:00] have collected a lot of rainbow representation. Um, over the probably the last 30 years. So what you're seeing is the life experience, um, of two passionate curators who have worked for a really long time that want to share stories. Um, recognising there is a colonial institution. Um, representation hasn't been strong here in the past. Uh, so it's figuring out those things that we have, um that we can use to profile people and tell their stories. Uh, one of the consequences [00:12:30] of that was that we recognise that there wasn't a lot of representation in the Maori. Uh, so having a come in and working with some people in our community to see how we can increase that representation is, uh, something that's been really important to us. Um, And I've got to recognise, um, step in for their work and the LGBT Q I plus hub, um, and working with Maori communities in general, because if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't have the representation [00:13:00] that we have here of, um or, um, Steph's work with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. So it's they they have an excluded representation of Maori or lift it up to the Maori curators to collect. Um and I think as an organisation, it's important to recognise that representation needs to be carried by all levels here. It can't be something that's just put into a pigeon hole and lift to one person. Otherwise, it's always gonna be biassed. So when you find connections [00:13:30] that are or relationships that are possibly Taku, how do you record those in, um, the collection management systems. How do you note that? I think there's a few. Historically, there's been a few. There have been objects that have been collected by Takata makers, and I think it's really important to note that while the makers were they weren't necessarily collected because of that. So sometimes it was for aesthetic [00:14:00] reasons. Um, but for me in the catalogue, I think the main thing to note is that them being Taku adds to their life experience and their art experience. So it adds the Maori or their life force to the uh so it enhances it. So recognising that these objects need to be collected, um, knowing that them being Taku adds to it not in spite of them being Takata, that they can produce something of beauty. Uh, it's [00:14:30] more complex. It's recognising the holistic whole of a person. Uh, the other problem, sometimes we run into in the collection, is that some of our makers have passed away. So when we identify them as makers, um, sometimes their living descendants and family aren't comfortable with that. So we have to find ways that where the information is there, but it's not necessarily a public view. Um, that will hurt a lot of their relatives. Uh, so how I would approach [00:15:00] it now is by having the conversation and asking and seeing what people are comfortable with representation. Uh, seeing what stories? They want to be out there, uh, and trying to tell a whole story. And that's easy to do from the start, rather than looking backwards and trying to add it on later. Are you aware of, um, families that do feel that that shame or that they just don't want to recognise the the the the kind of There are a few examples, and, um, it [00:15:30] is sad, but it was also, um, recognising that people know different layers and different experiences of a person. Um, and that's what makes up the whole, uh so it's a fine line respecting someone's wishes and then having something out in the public just because we can. This, um, conversation reminds me very much of, uh, an event here at about a year ago. It was Chris Brickle and Will Hanson talking about what makes a queerer object. [00:16:00] And is it the maker? Is it the person that uses the object is it where the object is placed. Um, do you have those kind of same discussions in terms of, Oh, absolutely. And it is all of the above. Or sometimes it's that take to an object because they feel that it represents them, even though it may not be made by a person. Uh, identity is complex. If it's anything and how we identify a is [00:16:30] how it's really up to the community, they choose their and they choose what has significance to them. I'm also reminded of, um, didn't you do a tour during pride with with the Maori collections? Um, I did and And that if there's anything I want people to take away is that, uh, the history of collecting, um, but also recognising that there's a lot of duality in. So on one [00:17:00] of those tours, I was lucky enough to have Yuki there, and no one actually told me that Yuki was there and we talked about gender being. I identified it as Duel and Yuki's like No, no, it's more like a circle. It's like, Oh, I like that. And later a friend of mine was like, No, no, no. It's more like a spider Web. So it's recognising that while there is this duality of gender in Maori to that it is complex. It is like a spider you can land on anywhere in the spectrum. [00:17:30] And we do see that on our, um the essence of is that it is male and female, and it's the layers that make a hole. So we see WAKA from the above view, um, are feminine. It looks like a vagina. Um, from the side view, they're male, it's long, and we see that in where the shell component, um is feminine represents the female opening of the, uh, the mouthpiece is male, um, which is long [00:18:00] and made of wood. And the stories that come along with that, uh, for the for example, the shell trumpet is a daughter of a sea who fell in love with the tree and the daughter of Tanya Man. So both elements are represented in the, um and we see that right through to all through, um, our collections. So it's getting people who come in and pride to recognise that nothing, um, was ever as simple, um, as male and female. [00:18:30] Everything was elements that added to a whole Another thing I like to talk about on those tours is I call it object bouncing. So it's one favourite thing I like to talk about is the ships now, which in the day having a nail and being able to hammer two pieces of wood together was amazing. It saved time. So they were real popular objects. They were used for carving. Um, they were used for fishing hooks. Um, but they [00:19:00] were also the most common object that was traded in the sex trade. Uh, and because of that, we have our blood borne illnesses. Um, our syphilis. So even stories like that and the story of disease can be bounced off an object as simple as a ship. Now, um, so it's finding Well, we may not have strong representation. It's finding stories that people can really identify with, and they give a sense of history. Um, how things have changed. Um, what may have been lost, but also reclaiming our identity [00:19:30] within those stories as well. You've mentioned a number of the the the WAKA. Are there other instances you know of, um of that would directly relate to Taku and whether it's in role or form or I think physical. Uh, the most representation physical representation that we can look at and like, recognise the is in a [00:20:00] carving, and that's because it purely because it lasts the longest, um, carvings out of wood and stone are going to be a lot around a lot longer than woven objects. Um, but a lot of our stories in are carried. A lot of them are actually carried through missionary accounts, uh, through stories of like and, um reclaiming those knowledge that have sort of been suppressed or looking into and those and those stories [00:20:30] that are handed down. And that's where we find the most because and that's really the area that a lot of researchers have chosen to explore. Um, that said, um because of the history of museum collection and knowing that there is thousands and thousands of objects, uh, it a different set of eyes may turn up something different. Um, when you have a collection that has been catalogued by people, primarily European people in the 19 forties, Uh, even if there is representation [00:21:00] of, if they seen it, they wouldn't have written that down. So it takes a fresh set of eyes and new people to actually go through those collections and explore them. Which is the other reason bringing people in on pride is so important. It's recognising that they may see something different that I don't see and vice versa. And we could actually say the same thing about the, um, some of the other collections within Papa and that, I mean, prior to homosexual law reform, you know, in the eighties, with, uh, [00:21:30] things would have been catalogued with a kind of a homosexual slant. Oh, exactly. The legacies that we really live with, uh, and, um, are obligated to undo as well as part of our role is to fully explore our collections. Um, they can tell more stories than even. We realise it's looking at everything with those different eyes and sharing with the public as well, who may reinterpret them in a different light. So how do you go about say, um, decolonizing? [00:22:00] Um, the cataloguing of, uh, it's an endless job. So priority number one for me is if we acquire anything new to be really honest and to really be really thorough and complex about how we catalogue and what stories we attach and put in there. Um, but for me, really, it's every record that I go into. I try to leave it in a better state than when I found it. But it is it. It's [00:22:30] 100 year project that will keep going. And to be honest, I don't know if that work can ever really stop, because who knows what biases I have now that people may identify in another 100 years. So I think it's just one of those ongoing things. It's part of being a curator and working in a museum. And then those stories always need to be interrogated and brought forth and looked at again from different lights. So as a curator, are you consciously or proactively bringing in? Now [00:23:00] we are so since, uh, the LGBT Q I plus Hub and recognising that we didn't have strong Maori Tata representation Collecting is guided by a collection strategy, and Taku is something that wasn't on it. So something we've recently reviewed and added, um, and those Tonga reviews or those collection strategy reviews are really crucial to identifying and bringing in those gaps in our collection, because [00:23:30] if it's not in the strategy, it won't get collected. It's not that it won't get collected. It's more that, uh, having something in the strategy that really identifies an area really gives us the authority and power to go out and have a look for it. Um, it's something that collection strategy, they guide our collecting. Um, we can bring a lot of things, but it's, um, identifying it as a primary area. Uh, is something that's really important? Uh, yeah, [00:24:00] for you. What? What are the most significant here at te Papa? So for me, So I'm I'm biassed. I come from a background of weaving, so I love weaving. So my favourite are what I like to call transitional. So they're the that come from the early period of contact with Europeans. Uh, so out of this era, I see there's a particular cloak that is woven from kiwi feathers, very traditional. [00:24:30] Um, but what it also has is little flecks from a peacock tail woven through it. So it kind of has this effect of glitter that rolls through it. So it's a new interpretation of something that was woven pre contact, um, with a new flair. So it's that recognising that in the only thing traditional about them is innovation. The drive to use new materials or incorporate things that can tell different stories that can make something new and unique. [00:25:00] Uh, there's a similar cloak that is a It's what we call a kayak. So it's all about the demonstration of skill, and this one is his wool of every colour you can possibly imagine woven through it, Um, and it's what we call Berlin wool. It's the wall that's picked out of hats and blankets. Um, so what you see there is somebody who had a pre contact colour palette of black, white, brown and yellow, and they just have access to vibrant colour for the first time. And they create [00:25:30] these new and unique beautiful objects. And the other time that are the special ones for me, because they they show that our people have always evolved and moved. Um, but we're creative and patient at the same time. Ju just finally, I'm wondering there are lifetimes of work here at Papa and going through the collections in 100 years time. How would you like to be seen by the people looking back [00:26:00] to your time? Oh me, I guess the fundamental thing about working with collections is that it's not about you. So the job of curators is to tell the stories of objects and historically that's been done by people writing about things that they have no experience on. So ideally, I would like to be the person that empowers the community to talk about their own stories rather than the person who sits here [00:26:30] in the institution and writes about communities without even talking to them, which is historically what's been done. So if I can help facilitate that, I'm happy.
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