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Summer camps is a verbatim show that is about secretly being summer camps that were held outside of Christchurch and Wellington in the late seventies and early eighties, set up by a collective of women, Um, who were quite a few of them actually living together across, um, a couple of houses in Christchurch. And they had been spurred on by, um, women travelling from [00:00:30] the States and Britain, I believe. Is that right, Jess? Um, that had, um, had attended sort of similar types of, uh of things. And there was just a lot of kind of, um, political, um uh, activism and things happening at the time, Um, very conscious kind of groups forming and doing a lot of work for women. Um, for [00:01:00] lesbian women for, um, like gay people generally. And, um, also for Children as well. Like, there's a really incredible kind of amount of work that a lot of these women were involved in. Um, their lives were kind of, um pretty hectic and, um busy. And, um, a lot of stuff was hard, um, that they were dealing with day to day. And so the idea of having a summer camp, um, as [00:01:30] a place to go as a bit of a refuge was very appealing and somewhere that they could celebrate their themselves and their sexuality and explore some of that as well. Um, together. And, um, in a space where they didn't have to explain who they were or hide who they were, Um, for a week. Um What? Um what what? Like [00:02:00] what, uh, made you interested in and kind of spurred you on to want to be part of this project? I'm Courtney. I'm one of the actors and I'm co pub doing publicity. Um, this has been Jess's baby for a while, and I heard about it last year, and I guess just hearing just talk about it was really exciting. Um, because I don't know [00:02:30] too much about queer history or, um, really, um, just a little bit here and there. And I haven't looked too much myself. Um, so it's exciting to be thrown into a project that has been going on for a few years. Um, and, um, not having to lead her, which was quite nice. Um, and, um, to see the the work and dedication [00:03:00] that Jess and Sabrina and Elaine and her Dasa have done both the interviews, Um, and creating Mass. Um, and it's just really I really I'm a real fan of Verbatim Theatre. Um, because, ah, it's just the insight you get because it's their truth in that moment, even though they're retelling stories, and they may want to paint themselves [00:03:30] in a certain light and they may skirt over some stuff. Um, it's it's better than what you will get than us imagining what it was like. Um, and so it's really good having that insight and part of the show. We've got a little bit of recording of what it's like now to be young and queer. Um, and it's really nice because it's, um, like a taste of a conversation between the older lesbians and [00:04:00] sort of our viewpoints. Um, and just it's really nice to see the change. Um, like 40 years or so, Um, just how much has changed. There's hangovers of some things, but just these women fighting so hard to have any space. And now there's almost we talk about how there's, like, freedom to almost sit on the fence for a lot of debates [00:04:30] because, um, they've done a lot of the groundwork, and we're sort of spreading out. So, um, what we can do for, like, non-binary and trans and intersex and a lot broader than what they were thinking about, because there wasn't even, like space for lesbians. But now we're working towards having spaces for everyone. Um, and so it's It's really interesting and really like a real Joel to have that the interviews because there's [00:05:00] a lot of stuff I didn't know. Um, it's quite funny. And it's nice because you hear not only just parts of history, but also just their personal experiences and relationships and leaving like husbands and Children and just that struggle and how our struggles are different now. Yeah, I think that's it. Um, what drew you to this project? Daan? Um, [00:05:30] I'm Elaine, and I'm an actor for the show and doing a bit of publicity. Um, what drew me to the project? Well, I have been watching Jess want to do this show for ages, and I've heard about it for a very long time. And I remember well, because I was there when she first found out about the camps. And we did scene which was another documentary theatre queer piece. Um, and so it's been It's been a long time coming, [00:06:00] and it sounds of a part of New Zealand history that I just really wanted to know about and I think is very interesting. So the idea of actually getting to learn about it and for real having actual interviews and it's not just a hypothetical now, like being able to do whatever I can to help it get it to the stage, is what drew me to the project. Um, Bethany, Uh, so in the summer camps back then, there was a lot of hair plating. There's a lot of [00:06:30] chanting. There's a lot of, uh, vegetarian cooking. If you were to make a summer camp for today, what kind of activities would you have on your summer camp? Wow, Elaine, that is such a great question. Uh, I'm Bethany, and I am the producer. I Firstly, I just want to say that it is an absolute privilege to be part of this. Uh, I was so I wasn't [00:07:00] sure if I had any capacity to be part of another show. Um, and then I had this wonderful Skype with Jess, and I was quite sort of giddy with the warmth and excitement about how special this part of history was that we need to know about and how special this project is. That talks about it. And I thought, Gosh, [00:07:30] I have to be part of this. I have to be part of this. Also, the collective just sounded like such a beautiful space to be part of as well, this, um, collective that we've created called Camp that way. And I wanted to, I guess, partake in that and contribute to that, um, into this beautiful kind of empowering and super supportive space. Uh, And to answer your question, Elaine, if I was to [00:08:00] create my own summer camp in today's, uh, time I there would have to be a lot of music. Everyone would have to bring an instrument or a makeshift instrument. And if not, they would have to create the instrument when getting there. And there would be a lot of, like, instrument creating sessions and then music making sessions. Um, there's there'd be a some recording [00:08:30] set up so that people can record music or vlogs. No blogs or vlogs. We could do some vlogs, actually, uh, and just talk about, you know, a chicken talk about how they're going. Um, I've never been to any of the rainbow. I don't know if anyone's heard about that, but this these camps or something up north that were had the sort of hippie vibes, and they sound amazing in many ways. And I guess [00:09:00] you know, just nice vibes like that. Everyone being just super supportive of each other. If anyone's having a rough time, people just surrounding that person and bringing them up Uh, I think what else is great in a camp? Yeah, he planting sounds cool. Um, lots of swimming, lots of swimming and art. And oh, and lots and lots of dancing. But not like, [00:09:30] you know, freestyle dancing. But also just like old fashioned dancing as well. Like, you know, like Art Deco Lindy hop. That would be great. And lots of dressing up. And you'd have to bring lots of costumes with you. But then again, if you don't bring costumes, makeshift costumes, everything makeshift and lots of eating as well and lots and lots of dumpster diving and being resourceful because I like being resourceful for anyone who doesn't know, [00:10:00] Um so that that would be my ideal camp 2020. All right. Hi, AICA. Oh! Oh. What are the funniest things that you've learned in this process? Thank you, Bethany. Uh, I'm Anica. I'm [00:10:30] one of the actors. And yeah, I think there's a lot of things that I've I've learned over time. But I think one of the biggest ones is I think you forget how similar things were then to how things are now. Even though a lot of things have changed. A lot of the things that were talked about back then are still talked about today. I'm trying to think of specific examples, but I think [00:11:00] better than just things that we talk about, how people feel is so timeless and how these women came to discover who they were. I think it's just so relatable in a way that I just don't think I expected. Um, and I think that, uh, anyone who comes to see the show will also be able to feel that as well, because, yeah, these women's stories are are just so [00:11:30] wonderful to listen to. Um, so I think that's probably one of the biggest things that I've learned. Um, but then also things that were different. Like, um, I used to live in Dunedin, uh, a few years ago, and, um, one of the people we interviewed talked about thinking that, um uh, that she and the person she was in a relationship with were the only lesbians in Dunedin. [00:12:00] Um, because they didn't know of any other lesbians in Dunedin and just thinking, Wow. Yeah, that's definitely not possible anymore. And so that's that's kind of nice as well to to, um, feel like there is progress in the world. So I guess, yeah, finding the differences and the similarities is probably what I've learned. Um, my question for Jess. Um, Jess as a writer, um, [00:12:30] turning interviews into a verbatim play sounds really, really difficult. Can you walk us through a bit of your process in doing that? Thanks very much, Anica. Um, my name is Jess, or a lot of people know me as Vega. I am, uh, the writer. I've coordinated the interviews for the Summer Camps verbatim Project, and I am also acting in the show as [00:13:00] well. Um, walk through the process of doing verbatim verbatim is something that I studied at, um, Otago University with uh, Stuart Young and Hillary shout out to them. They were really cool, and they taught me what I know. And I really fell in love with the form then as a way of getting, um, ground level interaction and representation to minority groups. I thought was really empowering about verbatim. And that's what I liked about it is using [00:13:30] cheap, affordable technology and going straight to the source to get stories. So that's what really drew me to it. Um, and that's kind of, uh, part of the process for me is just, um, trying to do that as well. Um, in terms of going and actually just meeting with these women and interviews did not happen. We didn't just schedule a time to go meet someone and then do an interview. We would, you know, meet up first for coffee or have lunch and dinner. We went to a women's [00:14:00] dance, which was quite fun, went to a lesbian history display and did a whole bunch of things just getting to know people before actually getting to the stage where we interview them. So when you finally have that interview and you sit down and listen to it you feel like you already have a sense of a little more sense of who these people are because you've gone through that process of getting to know them. So what I would do is just listen to the interview again and again and again and again. I would just put it on while I did cleaning. I'd put it on while I played a video [00:14:30] game or something else and listen to them over and over. And, um, it got to the stage where I guess I, um, felt like I was still there and still with them, Even though the interviews happened like, you know, weeks beforehand, I was still listening to them all the time that they were so fresh in my mind. And then after that began to try get an idea of, um, what are some of the cruxes of the stories that they're telling, um, what is, [00:15:00] you know, at the heart of what they're trying to convey? There are loads of intricacies that will just not be able to make it into the actual play itself, but listening to it enough that you try to get a feel for the A feel for the general thrust of what they're talking about. Um, And then going with that and transcribing and transcribing takes forever. It is a long process. Um, but just doing that, just going bit by bit by [00:15:30] bit and writing it all out. And then, um, looking at the bulk of transcript the transcription and, um, breaking it apart and ordering it into, um, different scenes and so on and trying to find common threads that sort of weave it through. Um, it's tricky because you still have to work on building like a dramatic arc. And you know, all these sorts of things and strong sense of character and all, You know, all the other stuff that you would do when you know, writing [00:16:00] a play. But, you know, trying to keep that, um, essential truth that's still there. I guess. Uh, going back to that empowering minority voice is something that I think is core throughout. The writing process is trying to find ways to speak with the people that you have interviewed rather than for them. Um, so you know, when you're trying to find that central thrust to what you're writing, you're not just thinking of just the interview material itself. You're thinking of the people that you've actually gone out and met with and spoken with [00:16:30] and, um, and things that they might have said afterwards because people get in touch after an interview and think, Oh, gosh, I really should have said this or whatever. And that gives you a better sense of what they really want the piece to say. Um and yeah, yeah, doing that. So at the end of your media release for this production, you've got a really interesting sentence, which says, uh, today, in a time when politically and socially there is so much division and infighting between different [00:17:00] perspectives, summer camps is an attempt to reinvent the same sense of solidarity, friendship and beauty of the original camps. Can you speak about some of the, um, kind of political and social divisions that are currently happening? And how do summer camps from the seventies speak? Speak to us now. Thanks. Sabrina. Um, I'm Sabrina. I'm the director. Um, I feel like I want everyone to answer this question with me. This is really, really hard. [00:17:30] Um, OK, so there's division. Yes, Um, one of the, um, places where there is there where there was division back in, um, the time that our elders are speaking about was, um, simply, um if you were lesbian enough, Um, Were you bisexual? If you were, that was a problem for some of these women. Um, there was a lot of, um what do you call it when, um it's like [00:18:00] you're the best lesbian? What's that phrase? Gold Star lesbian? Um, um, there was a lot of that going on, and there was And also, um, one of the other things that we explore in the play is, um, that women would bring their Children with them to the camps, and that was allowed. But some of the boy Children were not very welcome. And they were Children. Um, so those are sorts of divisions that they were talking about Then, um, and then subsequently, what we are finding is, uh, a difficult [00:18:30] conversation to be sort of having with these elders that we've spoken to, um is around, um, them being a bit upset that a lot of us claim to be queer. Why can't we use the word lesbian? Um, why? Why are people not using that word? What? Um And so we discuss that in the play, Um, and what that means to us. And, um, that's really different for different people, But, uh, there's just this really big sense [00:19:00] of not necessarily wanting to be pinned into, um a specific, Um, like, what's the word I want, like, an identification or something for your sexuality and that sexuality can be a lot more fluid through your life. And and actually, by pinning pinning yourself down, you really can restrict, um, who who you are or who you are becoming? Um, and I know that that's a really personal thing for me. [00:19:30] Um, and so we do discuss that in the play. Um, so they do struggle. They have struggled with that. And we've talked about that in our interviews and things and and meetings. Um, and then we have also discussed, uh Then there's also the sort of, um, difficulty that they have found with including, um, trans women. Um, in their conversations, um, they've talked about fighting for women only women spaces. [00:20:00] Um and so that's that's sort of a some rhetoric there as well, which we've struggled with with people who are, you know, like 40 years our senior, Um, and that still exists. Um, there are still pockets of, um, of women and of lesbian women who believe that, um, yeah, that those spaces shouldn't, um, shouldn't exist for, um, for trans women. And, um, we are, uh we really struggle [00:20:30] struggle with that, um, we talk in the play again about how, uh, to maybe some people feel that they need a space that's for women born women. Um, but that for us or for for me, anyway, that that really, really doesn't sit right There are for, um, a white sis lesbian or woman. Um, [00:21:00] we actually like a lot more privileged, Um, white sis women, um, and and that those spaces that were being fought for, um, to be lesbian and be out they can exist. Um, that's actually really not a a huge fight anymore. Um, the spaces that we're fighting for now are to include our non-binary and trans friends. And, um, we're really, [00:21:30] um, trying to create space for that. And, um, so that's where we're finding some of the the difficulty and we talk in the play, actually, about like that the that our elders and that um people that are sis and white. Um uh, really should be like putting the ladder down, um, and and bring and and kind of helping the people, The people out, um, in the rainbow community who actually need it the [00:22:00] most, which is not them anymore. The women that we interviewed actually made it really explicit to us that they would only do this project on the condition that we speak to being queer identified. They didn't want to just do a project that was exclusively about the lesbian summer camps. Um, they said, um, we don't like and I'm using their phrasing, but they're like, we don't want to just hear about old dykes going on summer camp because that's not relevant anymore. We want to hear from you and the way that you [00:22:30] identified because it is different. Um, so if we're saying these things about there being a dissonance and that sort of stuff, well, part of the actual purpose of this project coming from our elders is that they actually want to hold a space because they do want to learn, and they do want to hear from us. So it's not all just I'm not saying that you were being negative because you weren't at all. But it's It's It's, um really not just us initiating this. It was pushed for quite a lot, um, by them as well. [00:23:00] Um, in the interviews. Oh, it's Courtney again. They talk about, um this sort of, um a specific perspective we are getting from the camps and specific people it was catered to. And they mentioned there's not a lot of women of colour or, um, working class women. And that was because these camps were set up within their friendship groups. And, um, [00:23:30] yeah, it was very white and middle class, which is sort of carried over to who is mainly in this collective as well. Um, so that's quite interesting, That similarity, um, and yeah, because the like, the camps cost and stuff. And there there was exclusion because they were fighting for that space. Um, but I think the difference and our sort of framework is [00:24:00] we're Yeah, just trying to be a bit a little bit more open because they've given us that space so we don't have to fight for it, but yeah, I just wanted to touch on that working class thing. Um, I don't know. I don't really know how to gauge what we are, but we're all university educated. Um, so I don't know if that makes us middle class or whatever. So we've had some specific, um, [00:24:30] comments. And, um, we're still we're still discussing terminology all the time as a queer community as a LGBT QI a plus rainbow community. Um, and we have, um, we encounter in our lives. And even in this project, um, people being upset still with the word queer, for example. Um, so we're still having these conversations? Um, there [00:25:00] seems to be a instead of, uh, sort of coming together and all sitting and discussing it. Groups of people, um, that are still kind of sitting in their corner, getting really upset about stuff. Um, like the term queer, for example, Um, who are like, No, But I'm I'm a lesbian. So it's like we've almost gone back to this conversation from 40 years ago. This is currently happening. This has happened to us in our collective [00:25:30] and so it's sort of I think one of the interesting things that the show does is we go here was this amazing part part of New Zealand history that we don't know about. We follow so much American stories about being, um, about being queer. And here's this, like, really New Zealand centric story about, um, these women and and and what they did and how they came together. [00:26:00] And we kind of use some of those, um, the the conversations that they were having and reference them today because those some of those conversations still still exist. Um, and also, we acknowledge that, um, we can have different opinions and we are from different generations. Um, we have had some people say, Well, wow, why do you wanna, um, like, [00:26:30] hear from a whole bunch of old dikes, you know, like, Oh, they're so they they're turfs like so a bunch. You know, that kind of We've heard that kind of thing and we kind of go OK, yeah. So there might be some stuff in there that we disagree with or that we feel like we've moved on from, but collecting that history is so important and they still pave the way and we and like we are still really I'm really grateful for that. And so, by having this conversation and actually literally [00:27:00] talking to this older generation. We are, um, effectively trying to bring a portion of the community together and say, Let's just actually talk and let's hear our differences, which, uh, we hope that, um, people of more like our generation that do come and see the show will start to do start really listening to each other and accepting that there's just such a huge spectrum of experience and of difference. [00:27:30] Mm, This is Anica again. Um, I just wanted to add to that in the whole having a discussion and having a discussion as a collective, Um, we are also wanting to invite our audience to have that discussion with us. Um, it is It is a very interactive piece. We we sort of want the audience to feel like they are there with us and after the show as well. We do want to open up, uh, a discussion [00:28:00] on the things that we have been talking about in the play. So even though we have already had our discussion, we also really want to hear from our audience and what they have to say on the subject as well. Something that's really inspired me as someone witnessing the show from the outside. It's been really inspiring, seeing how discussion and interviews among [00:28:30] the collective that have also been recorded verbatim and weaved into the show, which you've done an amazing job with Jess. It's been really inspiring to see how some of these these ideas of separatism have been, um, explored, to find bridges and create bridges and to find ways to meet in the middle and find ways to understand [00:29:00] each other better. And I've been really inspired by what Jess has had to say about intersectional dialogue and the importance of coming together and building each other up and having each other's backs as anyone across the LG TB QI a plus community. And I feel like that's one of the [00:29:30] main things this project is about. I think it I think it's one of our sort of three purposes. A. Our purposes are one to to document LG TB Q I history and specifically lesbian and her story that is very unique and special to New Zealand via um, interviews to archive those interviews and also to create spaces of discussion across the LG TB [00:30:00] QI, a plus community and intergenerational discussion. And that's yeah, one of the most special things about this process. And it's been really inspiring because, as Jess and as other people have said, one of the things that spurred this project is the desire to connect with our lesbian elders to connect with our LG TB QI a plus elders who [00:30:30] have paved paved the way who have created this safe space that we're in at the moment that we want to now make more safe and more diverse. And we are so grateful for that. We want to explore that, and we want to find ways to make new progress. Jess, I just really love um, what you have to say about, um, hearing from our elders and that [00:31:00] we Yeah. Can you Can you talk about how you came to, like, want to know about your queer elders? Yeah. Um OK, Jadwiga history Geek speaking now, um, I I've I've just always love, love, love, love loved, um LGBT QI a rainbow plus plus plus, um, history in general. It's just been, you know, a thing since I was a wee [00:31:30] little baby queer way back in the day. I just, you know, ended up, and I think it gave me a sense of I was, you know, I think feeling like, you know, lonely as a little queer and thinking, Oh, gosh, you know, this is so horrible. And, you know, you feel like the only person going through it if you're in, like, a small town or in, you know, a small high school or whatever. Um, reading about history and realising. Actually, there are so many people who have gone through the exact same stuff. And you're not just alone. You're [00:32:00] a part of a people is so, um, important to me and part of why I love reading about our collective history. Um, I think another thing is because And something I I talk about a lot when I talk about this project is if you are born into any minority community, Um, you know, a A around the world you are usually born into, You know, you might call it like your your ghetto or your your place. Um, So, for example, I come from a Polish [00:32:30] family. If you're born into a Polish family, you're probably born into a polish, you know, village or a polish. You know part of a city or something like that. You are born to poles and you are raised by poles. You are have that immediate connection with your culture and your elders If you are born queer or LGBT Q. If you're born rainbow, you can be born anywhere across society, and you don't necessarily have any connection with your elders. So there is this whole history that's out there [00:33:00] that you actually have to take an extra step to find, which is quite unique to the rainbow community. So something that I'm really passionate about and, um, verbatim and and, um making, um, Rainbow queer LGBT Q history is actually doing that step and recording it, going out and trying to meet people and, um, and facilitating that process of actually just meeting and being with your elders, which otherwise [00:33:30] you wouldn't get to do so. The whole purpose of this show is also a framework just to be able to meet with the people that we come from and talk to them. I just wanted to say if if this can be to anyone who wants to jump in, um, if you could actually visit the original camps and witness one thing. What would you want? To go back and see? For the record, everyone is sticking their hand out. I'm going to give it to [00:34:00] Elaine because I saw her first. But Anna can go afterwards giving it to me because I'm the most special. Um, I. I would like to see something that actually isn't in the show, but so I just feel like people need to know about it. And so this is how people can know about it is that there was a lesbian circus that they created a circus they had, like, a circus on in their lesbian camp with, like, a naked woman riding a horse, like doing tricks. And I just I just feel like no one will know if I don't tell them that there was a lesbian circus and I would like to see [00:34:30] the Lesbian circus. Thank you, I. I would also like to see the naked pyramids they made nice. That was all. I was also gonna say the pyramid. Oh, yeah, uh, naked woman or half naked woman in the water doing pyramids. Was it eight on the bottom? Yeah, and a little kid at the [00:35:00] top and her tos. It sounds very cute. Um, yeah. Come and see our show.
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