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Stuart, why did you get into teaching? I wanted a job where I could sort of help young people and and, um, have a job that, um, would help make the world a better place. What kind of age were you when you got into teaching college? I was. I must have been early 20. I just finished university. So I must have been and must have been sort of early 20. And were you out at the time? Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was out I. I sort of gone [00:00:30] through that whole coming up process and had a bit of a sort of a non serious job. And then I was. Then I was like, OK, I'm gonna kick start my career now and go to Teachers College and, um, be a secondary school teacher, going through teachers college and being out. Did that have any challenges for you? Yeah, it was It was sort of a bit strange because I was learning how to be a teacher. But then I was I had kind of this extra layer on top, on top of, um I'm a gay teacher as well. And, [00:01:00] um, you know, do I do. I want to be a role model. Or do I? Is it gonna be worth the the personal cost to me of that or or should I just, you know, be closeted and just get on and do the job? And how did that pan out? I guess as my confidence increased, um, I decided that I would sort of be out and just be me. And if that meant being a bit of a role model for a few students, then so be it. But yeah, to me, it ended up being just part. And being gay is just such a normal [00:01:30] part of my life. I It's difficult for me to, um, close off parts of my life during part of my day. So it was just easier and less complex just to be out. What was that like at Teachers College? Did you encounter anything? Um, because of that? Uh, not really. Um Well, at one stage, I did get put into a school with a and my, um, associate teacher was gay as well, and I always wondered that Was that just chance, or were they trying to help me out? Um, I'm not sure. I always wondered, though, because [00:02:00] we always had these extra lectures on, um, like female teachers and boys schools and, um, teachers of different ethnic groups in different areas, how they were getting on with teachers and in different schools. But there was never a sort of a lecturer or anything on. Well, what about, um, non heterosexual teachers and non heterosexual students? It was all just pretty invisible. So you left teachers college, and then you went to Was it a single six secondary [00:02:30] boys school? Yes. Yeah, it was, Yeah, in the city. And, um, yeah, that was that was quite good. I was quite intimidated when I first went there when I got the job there, because I went to a coed school myself, and it was kind of a a quite a bloke, real man, kind of an environment. And I wasn't quite sure how I'd sort of cope with that, but Yeah, I kind of found my feet, found my feet after a few years there, and, um, and then just ended up being outing myself in in a in a just a in a classroom [00:03:00] environment. Um, because of, you know, obviously certain words that kids were were using, which I didn't find acceptable. And then it just became just another part of who I was. Um, but yeah, I think the biggest thing I found was working in a boys school was working out what it means to be a man and working out what masculinity is because I, I went to a coed school and and I didn't I don't fit a lot of the stereotypes of obviously straight people, but I don't feel [00:03:30] I fit some of the stereotypes of sort of gay people either. So I suppose over the last 10 years, I have been working out for myself. What does it mean to be a man and and what is what is masculinity? Um, as I see you know, boys and boys schools grow up, and I see boys and co-ed schools grow up in these different environments. And with our changing attitudes towards, um, you know, what is it to be a man? It's certainly been a really interesting experience. And in interesting times, um, to be a man, Mhm. [00:04:00] Just taking you back to when you first kind of outed yourself at the single sex boys school. What kind of words were they using in the classroom that that you found so offensive? Oh, everything's gay or everyone's a fag or everyone's a homo And yeah, it's just it's just it's It's It's, um it's like a pandemic. It's just all over the place. Every day it's being said and no one's doing anything about it. No one's. No one's calling [00:04:30] them up on it. You know, senior management in the schools don't Teachers and teachers don't Other teachers don't seem to do anything about it. Um, we just fight, we've lost, we've lost the battle and we're just fighting a a big war. Um, because it's just now it's such a common word. What kind of year are we talking? When when this was happening? Oh, that would have been maybe five or six years ago. But it's still the case today that if you go into any secondary school, um, yeah, within within 30 seconds or a minute, you'll [00:05:00] hear the word gay or fag or homo or something. So when you heard that, what did you do? How did you feel? Uh, one particular day. I just had enough and thought no, this is just not good enough. And I pulled the kids up for saying it, and I said, I just said, Look, there's there's at least one person in the room that finds that personally offensive because it affects them. And it didn't take them long to work out who? That one, who that one person was and what were their reactions? Uh, yeah, they were quite apologetic. [00:05:30] Um, I think certainly made them think that they're using these words. And And the thing that the kids will always say is we don't mean it like that. Um, they don't mean something's gay in the way that we might think it's, um gay. Um and I think it just made a lot of them think that realise that, you know, they actually do know gay people. Some of their friends might be gay. It's just they don't actually know that they are. So they The message I was trying to give to them was you could be potentially insulting your best friend or other [00:06:00] people around you. Um, if you don't, you know, if they're not out to you, then, um yeah, you could be upsetting some people that are quite close to you without even realising it by using those kinds of words. And that's what I wanted to stop. So after you had said it, what was going through your head? Oops. What have I done? Yeah, because it was certainly unplanned. It was just sort of in the heat of the moment. Maybe I should have just walked out of the room and calmed down and came back in and giving him giving them out of detention or or just did what everyone else did, which is just to ignore [00:06:30] it. Um, but I thought, Oh, well, I've done it now. There's no going back. And so I just just carried on. And of course, it didn't take long for it to spread around the school. And, yeah, it wasn't too bad. Some students, some classes, wanted to talk about it for a little bit. But, you know, within a couple of days it all just kind of died away and people knew about it. And I was certainly open to them asking about it in future years because it was kind of a rumour. They wanted to know if it was true or not. And then we just kind of moved on, and I think because I didn't make [00:07:00] a big deal out of it, and I didn't make a big deal about being open about it, they didn't seem to either. So everyone just knew. But it didn't really need to be talked about because no one made a big deal out of it. Can you recall any instances where you think you were treated differently because of people knowing that? Uh, not really. Although I do wonder if because I was at the school for about 88 or nine years and I never got a promotion and I, I even I wondered to this day, I wonder if that had anything to do [00:07:30] with it or not, You know, I don't know. Hm. Don't know what makes you say that. Well, I reckon I'm a pretty good teacher, I reckon. I. I had what it takes to, you know, to, um, go up through the ranks a little bit. After eight years, most teachers after a few years, you'd be getting, um, units of responsibility for something and nothing ever came my way. Um, so I don't know if Yeah, who knows? How did the teaching staff react? Uh, that, Yeah, it was quite interesting because [00:08:00] I just assumed that they would have known after the kids had kind of known because, um But it was just one day when one of the PE teachers was just sitting down and having lunch with him and and they were talking about another single PE teacher and he was going, Oh, he's quite, you know, he's quite good looking. He's quite nice. He said if I was gay, I'd go for him. You know? Have you have you? What do you think? And, um so, yeah, no one ever made a big deal of it out of it to my face. Um, and everyone's, um, sort of seemed quite nice to me, but But I, I think in a lot of schools, teachers are kind of reasonably [00:08:30] educated and they've got reasonably sort of I'd say good attitudes and are tolerant of, you know, the whole tolerant of diversity stuff. But I think they they sort of are because they're caring people because of the that that's the type of people that are attracted to that kind of, um, profession. So No, I Yeah, I don't regret doing it. Um, but I just sometimes wonder about the personal cost versus the benefit. Um, but yeah, know what's done is done. [00:09:00] But I think being in a city school helps, too, because, um, the school I'm at now is not in the city. And, um, the attitudes are sort of quite different. So, yeah, um, I'm sort of quietly in the closet and in my current school, um, although I found out there's a couple of lesbian women on the staff and they don't seem to be hassled at all. So maybe one day, Um, but I just like to, um, get I just like to for people to get to know me first as a person before [00:09:30] finding out those kinds of details which might cloud their judgments about you know who I am and and what I do. It's interesting. As as a a gay male, but actually, even just as a male in the, uh, education system, um, I imagine that must be quite hard nowadays. Yeah, people sort of say that it is, but I don't know if I'm a bit naive or not, but I Yeah, I think as long as you're just careful and get the basics right. Um, [00:10:00] and you're in a school environment where they, the senior management, trust their staff. I don't think you you you you'd seriously think, you know, you'd get into any problems as long as you know, as long as you had some boundaries that were appropriate and you kept to them. Um, at my last school, there was just, you know, just underlying procedures about if you were seeing students one on one, then you know, if they're in your classroom, you just keep the door open. You just let another member of staff know what's going on. So, um, [00:10:30] so as long as nothing is hidden then and things are quite open, Yeah. I don't think you get into any problems as long as you sort of keep your boundaries, you know, and and, um yeah, it's all good. Does it ever worry you that I mean, even the accusation, um, is can kind of ruin your career. Does that ever play on your mind in terms of just being a male in in the school system And and how, um, people seem to be so willing to to jump on the the the negative angle. [00:11:00] Yeah, not for me. I, I Yeah, I've got other things that I kind of worry about, like, Oh, I need to plan a lesson for after lunch, and I haven't really planned anything. What am I gonna do? Yeah, it doesn't, really. It doesn't really register on my psyche very much. Um, but I know I've got good, decent boundaries. I know that, I. I work in a supportive environment where people trust have a lot of trust. You know, I'm a trained professional. I know what boundaries are, so I just don't Yeah, I don't really worry too much about that, but I am clear in certain situations. I won't [00:11:30] put myself into certain situations exactly for that reason, um, it's if I was a PE teacher, it would be. Could be quite different. You know, I certainly wouldn't be going into any changing rooms or anything like that, whereas the straight male teachers might and and I would think that's fair enough, But for me, I would be a lot more cautious. Um, just just Yeah. Do you think it's easier nowadays for um either a questioning student or a gay and lesbian student in secondary [00:12:00] school. I'd like to think things are getting easier and easier all the time for, um, for young people and I. I kind of hope that it is, I think, with the likes of the Internet and people's changing attitudes, that, um, young people can be more open about questioning and asking. But I still think it's the the hardest thing for the young people to do is actually find that very first person to talk to and say, You know, hey, I think I might be, um so, yeah, I think it might be [00:12:30] easier in some ways, but in other ways I guess because everything is more open, it might be harder because it can be more talked about more often. Whereas in the past it was just invisible. No one ever assumed you might be gay because it just, you know, was so invisible. But now it's not. So people might wonder about people without girlfriends a bit more than maybe they did in the past. Is there a lot of teasing and bullying that goes on in school? Yeah, I think there is, and I think there's a There's a lot that goes on that. We don't, [00:13:00] um, see or we as teachers we don't know about. I think that, like, name calling is pretty chronic. Um, but but and part of me says, Yeah, that is wrong. But then part of me says, Well, it is reality. And if we try and put these kids in a in a, you know, totally safe environment in schools, well, they're not going to any ever experience a bit of bullying, and and they will never build up resilience. So I it's a natural part of growing up is to kind of pick on other people. So without seeming kind of harsh [00:13:30] and uncaring, it's reality. It happens. Um, And if it does get quite serious, there are certainly avenues that students and teachers and schools can take to, um to stop it. And I think schools are quite good at, um, stopping it. As soon as something is brought to their attention, Has a student ever come to you and either come out to you or said that they're being bullied? Yeah. I. I had one student come out to me, um, at school that Yeah, that was [00:14:00] That was, um that was pretty cool. Um, yeah, but I haven't Had anyone come up to me and say, um, you know, I'm being bullied with the student that came out to you. How did you handle that? Yeah, it was. I was just It was just kind of caught me by surprise because it was at the end of the day and I was just packing up, ready to go home, and this boy came up to me and said, I've got something I want to tell you. And so he just sat down and we had a bit of a chat. Um, and I just kind of did a lot of listening and and just kind of, um, acknowledge what he was [00:14:30] saying and and how brave he was. And, um, you know, just offered him a lot of support and reassurance and, um, sort of Yeah, a lot of, um, support for being so incredibly brave at your first single sex school. Were there many out students? Oh, no. There was There was, um Oh, there was one. There was one. guy Josh, he won't mind me mentioning his name. Um, yeah, he [00:15:00] was about 15 or 16. I think when he came out. And, um, yeah, that that was kind of quite interesting, because he was he was, uh, really into rugby. So I think it threw a lot quite a lot of the other boys, because, um, to them, it was a total shock. How did they cope? Uh, Josh was pretty good. You know, he's a pretty strong, young, resent young man, so he coped with it. Fine. But the the senior management of the school, they didn't cope with it. They they were like, Oh, we don't have any gay kids [00:15:30] at the school. And so yeah, they, um I think they found it quite, um, quite tricky to deal with. So when you say that, they say they don't have any gay kids at the school. I mean, that was that said to the students, or was that said in the teacher's room or Oh, no, it wasn't kind of said, but it was kind of like it was kind of implied that, um, you know, like, we don't kind of talk about that kind of stuff here. Um, yeah, it was kind of just I think it was just in an area where the senior management just felt uncomfortable, [00:16:00] and they just kind of didn't know how to deal with it or didn't know what to deal. Didn't know how to deal with it. So they just kind of ignored it and hoped it would go away. Um, I know in in a lady at, um, in a sort of a school video that the students made that was showed at assembly. It had some incredibly, um, homophobic, um, images on it with the kids. And, um, yeah, the school. I think because of the subject matter that it was kind of insinuating they, [00:16:30] in my opinion, they kind of were uncomfortable with dealing with with that in the same way they dealt with other things. And they just kind of, uh, kind of, like, closed the book on it and and turned it off and just kind of carried on as if nothing had happened, which I thought was a bit, um, yeah, not really good enough. Hm. So do you know how Josh coped? Uh, in that school environment? If he was the only one that was kind of out? Yeah. I don't know. Really, Um, because I never actually [00:17:00] talked to him. about it? Um, one on one. So I'm not too sure to be honest, were there any kind of support mechanisms in terms of? I mean, were there any queer support school groups or things like that that he could have gone to? Uh, not at the Not at the school we were at, um and And if there was, I don't think any of the boys would have gone to it. Um, although there's another school in Wellington that does a coed school that does have a support group, and, um, yeah, I think he I think he was quite heavily involved in that for a while. Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:30] And I think it's actually better to have that those kinds of support groups in a different school than, um, in your own school. I still don't think it's kind of a safe for young people to be out in school. Um, yeah, I. I think they're better to I mean, my Yeah, my personal opinion is it's better if they can just kind of keep it to themselves or to their close friends until they've kind of grown up a bit more. Um, it just seems it just seems from my experience, the [00:18:00] the the boys that I have seen that have come out quite, you know, like in third or fourth form or fifth form. They just tend to just tends to be their whole life. And they tend to kind of turn gay and start dressing differently and just becoming these stereotypes. I guess, as they're working out their identity and who they are, you know, they are who they are. And they're not that, I think, Yeah, they're not that gay. Like they they're still who they are. They just happen to, like, other guys. Um, but they just go down this. They seem to go [00:18:30] down this road of of just becoming this whole incredibly stereotypical gay person and kind of an an ali themselves from their parents and from their school and from their, um, peers, because they just you know, these guys have just suddenly turned really weird. Uh, yeah, it's just Yeah, I just didn't like seeing it. Maybe it's just a phase, and they'll kind of grow out of it, and then they'll they'll become less extreme as they get a bit older and realise. Actually, you know, they're still who they are. This is just an extra [00:19:00] an extra part of them that they've kind of grown up, and it's kind of woke. Woke them up. I wonder if the, uh, just mirroring what they see in terms of what they perceive as kind of gay culture. Um, what do you think? Uh, kids would see of gay culture. Now, when you know when they're looking at the TV or on the Internet and stuff What? How How would you think a a teenager would define themselves now if they were gay? [00:19:30] Yeah, I think. Unfortunately, we the media still keeps portraying these stereotypes. So we keep seeing, um, like, queer queer eye for a straight guy and go. And so we're not seeing, like, gay characters in, like, um, Shortland Street or Coronation Street or whatever, where you know their their rubbish collectors or their rugby players or their, um, you know, doctors or dentists or upstanding members of their community. We're still seeing these stereotype people [00:20:00] that are into sort of and not that there's anything wrong with it. But there's it's just a narrow view of of the gay world. So, um, that's something I certainly like to see change is to is to be able to show young people that there are there are gay and lesbian people of all walks of life doing all kinds of different things. Um, and not It's not just the narrow, um, image that's portrayed by the media, which still seems to be the case. Do you think you being out at that [00:20:30] single sex school? Uh, helped other students and teachers? I sort of hope so. And I guess part of the reason why I kept it sort of quite low key and never made a big deal out of it. Um, is that hopefully, I guess my The thing that I wanted to pass on to the the boys at that school was the fact that, yes, I'm gay. But I'm actually pretty much the same as everyone else. And there's only one year of my life, which is slightly different. Um, you [00:21:00] know, I'll go and watch the rugby games with everyone else. And so that went for this, you know, for the other staff and for the students, is that, um you know, being gay is just one small part of who you are, and it's just one small aspect of your life and it doesn't. Doesn't need to define exactly totally 100% who you are or what you can do. Yeah, it's just accepting for people accepting different of a whole different ways in a whole different form of different people. And this is my little [00:21:30] point of difference for the world. But other people have other little points of difference. You know, I could have been, um but I'm not, um, so it's just yeah, just I just think the more young people get experience to different kinds of people, the more tolerant they will be of different groups when they grow up. Because I'm hoping that you know the boys from my school. When they go into the world and meet other gay people, they won't be homophobic, and they won't be scared of them because they already know someone [00:22:00] who's gay. And so they realise it's actually no big deal, and they've got nothing to fear, nothing to worry about. And if any of those the boys at that school are gay I, I hope that I help them in some way. Do you think it would have been different if you had been a bit more kind of, um, out there in your kind of personality. Yeah, I guess so. Um, but that's just kind of not me. I mean, I'm actually kind of quite shy. And to me, being gay is quite it's actually quite of a personal thing to me, [00:22:30] because the first thing I think of when I see when I hear the word gay is kind of sick. So, you know, that's kind of a personal thing. And I, I don't I don't necessarily want to share that with a whole lot of people that I sort of don't really know. Um, you know, I I'd I'd more be more comfortable saying this. Like introducing my partner and saying, Hey, because that's got a whole different focus on it. This is my A loving relationship. A partner rather than this person happens to be gay. So, um, yeah, maybe it would be different if I was sort [00:23:00] of more out there and more, I guess, flamboyant, but But I'm not, um And if I was, then I probably wouldn't have got got this job in this particular school. II. I wonder that if they had known that I was gay. Um, before they employed me. Um, I wonder if I would have got the job. So do you think that you were discriminated against? I wonder. I just wonder, um, just because the senior management did seem [00:23:30] to be uncomfortable when I when it was disclosed in the classroom, and I was kind of encouraged just to kind of keep it quiet. So, um, yeah, I do wonder if if it did have any bearing on my employment. Yeah, but who knows? I mean, I certainly don't want don't want to be a victim and say, Oh, you know, I never got promoted because I'm gay and go down that line. But, um, yeah, who knows? II. I guess I'll never know when you did disclose in class. Uh, were [00:24:00] there any meetings between you and senior staff? Yeah, pretty much straight away. One of the DPS hauled me into the headmaster's office, and I had to confirm Yes, I was a homosexual. So and then and it happens quite quick. And if it ever happened again, I'd actually be quite outraged. I wasn't angry about it until afterwards, and if it ever happened again, I'd I would certainly question the need for a meeting. Um, so, Yeah, I Yeah, I just It was quite strange, but because [00:24:30] it was all rushed, it's like they kind of panicked. And maybe they were thinking something was gonna spread around the school. You know, um, maybe some disease was gonna spread, and they needed to contain the disease or something, but yeah, I was quite angry afterwards, but, um Hm. I guess I Yeah. Uh, but ultimately you You did spend eight years at this, um, this secondary school. So there must have been, uh, parts of the culture of that school that that kind of held you there. Oh, look, I love that [00:25:00] school. Um, I, you know, even though I'm gay, II, I really like and appreciate the tradition. The environment that is a single boys, um, school. It's It's got high levels of discipline. It's got amazing amounts of, um, tradition. The staff are well looked after Well supported by senior management. Um, the parents really support the school. The the students. The boys love being at school. They just don't always have the discipline to do what they know they should be doing [00:25:30] It's such a great, positive, happy environment to be in. We teachers can really feel that we're making a real difference to these young men, and we're holistically bringing these boys up together and helping turn them into men. And it's a fantastic school. And, um, after working in the boys that kind of an all boys environment, I think I think any any parents that have young boys, I would definitely definitely get them to consider sending them to a boy's school because [00:26:00] it really turns them into young men. It's a really supportive environment for them to work out what it means to be a man, and, um and it's it's Yeah, it's It's especially in this this age of where roles of men and women and masculinity and all that stuff is being redefined. Um, it's a really good environment for these young boys to grow up, you know, with some pretty strong boundaries, but also with the freedom to explore and find out, Um, find [00:26:30] out who they are. So I certainly love being in that environment, and, um, even though I'm gay, so don't sort of fit with the kind of teacher you'd expect to find in one those kinds of, uh, environment. I certainly wouldn't want to go to another school. That was kind of like new G and and kind of maybe, you know, on the surface, more accepting of difference and and all that kind of stuff because that's Yeah, that's that's kind of not the environment I like as much as as the traditional, um, school. Were [00:27:00] they supportive in terms of things like, say, sport and arts? Um, you know, thinking of, like, music or dance? Was it at an on an equal level? Yeah. One of the things that I was really surprised at with this boys school is that it didn't matter what the boys did, as long as they tried really hard and were successful at it. That was all that mattered. And so, while obviously that rugby plays a big part in rowing, um, equally So does, um, Drama and the the arts and cultural [00:27:30] activities, which had just as much emphasis on them as the sports. And that's one of the reasons why I was so proud to work there at the school, because, um, yeah, even though they had this tradition of rugby as everything. Um, actually giving things a go and being successful at anything was just as important. So the boys that did drama or debating or or croquet because we had a croquet club, um, or music. Or in the [00:28:00] in the school, choirs were considered just as manly as the boys that were in rowing and rugby and and, um, hockey. Looking at the syllabus. And we're talking from about 2005 to 2010. Was there any, um, gay or lesbian transgender? Um, information in the syllabus at all? Not really from what I could see, although that in the New Zealand curriculum it's the There's [00:28:30] certain things that need to be taught, but a a lot of the concepts the actual individual schools and teachers can actually choose the context. And so, like in the health, um, curriculum, for example, uh, there's there's, um, whole categories on sexuality and and, um, you know, discrimination and diversity. So if a teacher wanted to, um, to have units or, you know, lessons on homosexuality and heterosexuality, they [00:29:00] could, um but I would suspect that a lot sort of wouldn't, um, one of my, um a fellow um, a friend who's also a teacher who happens to be gay. He, um he's an English teacher. So he did a a gay themed novel, um, last year for his one of his classes. And, um, he said, Look, it just caused so much hassle. He's just not gonna do it again. Yeah, he had, you know, one. Just one parent complained. And that was enough just to make it just too hard [00:29:30] in terms of kind of sex education at the, um, single sex school that you were at What? What kind of, um, stuff was being taught? Uh, well, I did a I ran a, um uh, health education class for one year. But it was only one period a week, and it was pretty loose in the content. So So I put a bit more emphasis into sexuality than probably other teachers did. And and, um, because we had the freedom to do that. But I think generally it's it's sort of [00:30:00] just glossed over quite quickly. Um, I think the only time it really comes up is is when they're looking at SD. I you know, and they'll talk about HIV. And that might come up, then, um, but otherwise I think it's kind of yeah, glossed over pretty quickly. I suspect when you say glossed over, Is that because the teachers are embarrassed or the schools embarrassed or the students are embarrassed? Yeah, I think Possibly a a combination of all three. I think the thing I found hardest with teaching the health class was especially [00:30:30] when we did like the drug and alcohol unit, too. Was teaching content of, you know of that kind of subject matter without having any values, because I thought my role was just to present the information and let the students make up their mind. But actually, in reality, I actually found it very difficult to present the information without putting my own spin on it. Because obviously there's some things I think you know. These boys should and shouldn't do. So And I found it very tricky to teach. And because even just by talking [00:31:00] about things like homosexuality in the classroom, you're kind of giving the impression it's OK, which, you know, I think is a good thing. But for a teacher that wasn't too totally comfortable with that, um, I guess that would be quite tricky. And because a lot of it is up to the individual teacher and what the teacher is happy and comfortable doing, it may or may not be discussed in terms of, uh, support for yourself as a teacher who's gay. Uh, do you have any kind of network [00:31:30] of of fellow teachers? Uh, I think because teaching is a job where we're an adult and it's unusual in the way that we're an adult, but we don't spend much of our work time with other adults. And so we tend to get a lot of support from, um, our colleagues, perhaps more in this job than other jobs, like after school or at lunchtime or interval. Um, so we Yeah, as as as a generalisation, teachers have a, you know, a close, um, supportive network. [00:32:00] Um, anyway, and so I certainly did, as most teachers do. So, um, I, my close friends who were teachers and colleagues that, you know, I talked to them while I was having problems with certain kids or had other issues that were going on. So we would just Yeah, sit down and have a chat about it, and you realise that Oh, it's quite normal to for these things to happen. And this is here are some good strategies to deal with it, Um, in the PPT a that they there's a gay I can't remember [00:32:30] what it's called. There's a gay teachers network. Um, but once again, because we're such a small minority group, I went to one meeting a one nationwide meeting and there was maybe 10 people there and I was the only guy. So, um, I think if there are many male gay teachers out there, they're they're sort of quite closeted. It's my impression or aren't out there seeking sort of to meet others for support. How do you find that? Yeah, it's quite [00:33:00] strange because it would be nice to just, um, be able to network with other gay teachers to talk about some of the issues that you know that we face. Um, but I guess it's just part and parcel of being a minority group is there's actually not that many of us around to you. What would be some of the the key things that you face? I think some of the key, um, things that I'd face as a gay teacher would be um, I guess my personal safety, um, [00:33:30] name calling or bullying that's directed at me That maybe the senior management don't want to deal with. Uh, I guess that's that's and just yeah, just being acknowledged that I'm OK, I guess. And just not being discriminated against when going for jobs in different schools. Um, because teaching is is kind of a small network. And so, especially in the subject that I teach, so everyone kind of knows everybody. So, um, yeah, people at my new school, they knew I was gay before I did because [00:34:00] I haven't told them yet. They know. So, people. Yeah. People obviously talk. Um, so, yeah, I just hope that that's my My biggest fear is that, um, I would be discriminated against and judged, um, judged by my sexuality rather than, um, you know, the quality of my teaching, which Yeah, that's my biggest fear. I think that's the biggest, um, thing that gay people are faced with. Hm? Have you ever been bullied? Oh, I had [00:34:30] what I had fag or faggot scratched into the my classroom door one day with I could send a kid out for doing something and he obviously got quite annoyed, so he he he had a He must have had a knife or something on him, so he scratched faggot into the door. Um And so the next morning, when I saw it, um, I went to see the DP to, you know, to try and organise getting that taken off quite quickly, as you can appreciate. And his response to me is is it true? [00:35:00] Um, which I was kind of taken aback by? Um, yeah, I just wanted it kind of taken off the door. Yeah, that's quite shocking. And so what did you say to that? I can't honestly remember. Yeah, I can't remember. I think I was in a rush and I was just so focused on. I don't want my parent one class to see that today, even though they knew I was gay. Um, I just wanted I just want the maintenance [00:35:30] guy to come and and, um to, you know, to fix the door up. Um, in the end, the maintenance guy ended up being quite a good friend of mine. And, um, yeah, he was been really good because because I quite often at lunch time, I'd go and sit in in their in their work sheet with all the other, um, you know, the workmen and people that they'd have coming in and we'd be chatting away at stuff, and and, um, every now and then, you know, kind of a joke would come up. Um, but it was It was one of those jokes where they knew and I knew, [00:36:00] and they were saying It's OK, and I was letting them know it was OK. So it was a good environment to be in, like they Yeah, the the staff just didn't right down to the maintenance guys. They, um they they judge people for who we were and what we did not, um, not certain things about our character and personality that we couldn't change. So, yeah, it was a Yeah, that was, um yeah, they were great mates. Hm. If you had one wish for, um, bettering the [00:36:30] kind of education system for gay and lesbians both as students and as teachers, Uh, what would that be? I would hope my wish would be that principals and headmasters, um, willingly accept that there are gay people and lesbian people in in their schools and they are OK with helping making this minority group less invisible in whatever way, shape or form. That meant in the same way that they are highly supportive [00:37:00] of other minority groups being less invisible and in the same way that they help these other groups from celebrating who they are. I just wish they would do it for people like me as well. I think I think the the thing that I appreciate the most and the the value I've had back from being a teacher so often is I've probably spent maybe the last 10 years wondering to myself, Am I a decent [00:37:30] bloke? You know, am I a real man? You know what is masculinity? And by having the opportunity and privilege to work in a in a boy's school, it's really helped me figure those, um, questions out for myself. Um, which is Yes, I am a man. I am masculine and you know I am OK, so there's certainly been a lot of pay, a personal payback for me for taking that kind of the the I guess the harder road [00:38:00] of, you know, being gay in a boys school when I could have gone to, You know, like a new school where, you know, tolerance and diversity was just kind of up there. Um, yeah, I I've definitely had a lot of personal reward from, um from that amazing experience of, um, being part of the community, that is is that is a boys school. Um, yeah, it was, um it it was a great 10 years.
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