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I grew up. I'm from New Zealand and I. I grew up in the hut. Uh, went to Saint Pat's Silver Stream. Yeah. Then I moved to London. Well, I actually moved to Auckland in 95 and then London in 97. And why did you move to London? Um, at the time, I mean, I was really interested in photography then, but there was, um I just had really itchy feet, you know, it was time to time to get out kind of thing. And also, at the time there wasn't They didn't feel like there was a lot [00:00:30] going on in photography or in the arts. Really? Um, you know, if you wanted it felt like you. If you wanted to do something in the arts, then you had to leave. Which I'm please, isn't the case anymore? Before you left New Zealand, were you out? Yes. I came out when I was 17. My coming out story is pretty funny. When I when I told my mom her her response was Does this mean you wear dresses, Which is, you know, um which is kind of funny, but, you know, also shows [00:01:00] the kind of level of, um, in its purest sense with the kind of generation of difference. You know, Um um, But it came about because, um, I was with a boyfriend, and we were getting kind of serious. And so I had to tell people I felt like I had to tell people for you is, uh, gay as homosexuality. Is it a kind of a A big issue. I mean, did you have kind of issues Kind of like coming out? Or was it pretty straightforward? Oh, no. I had big reservations about coming [00:01:30] out. I mean, I went to Catholic, you know, boarding school. I was a day boy at a boarding school. And so you know that that wasn't the most conducive relationship for any kind of sexual difference. Or, you know, um, gender issues, But, um, so there was lots of lots of, um, issues around it, which is another reason why I had to feel like I had to leave, you know? I mean, it was pretty. It wasn't the greatest school experience. I mean, it was a big kind of boys culture with, um, [00:02:00] you know, everyone had to play rugby. And, you know, I just didn't really fit in there. Bit of bullying. And yeah, it wasn't It wasn't great, was it? Homophobic, bullying or just bullying and homophobic bullying and any kind of any kind of bullying. The difference was kind of noticed. How did you cope with it? Um, I kind of went well. I was at the time. I was also, I was doing a lot of sports. And so I was I represented [00:02:30] New Zealand in, um, gymnastics and trampoline. And so I kind of invested all of my energy in that and kind of lost myself on that and also art at school. And so that was a real really good outlet for me at the time. So you left New Zealand for London. What was that, like, Kind of leaving New Zealand and and being kind of in a in a different environment? Um, it was really Well, it was exciting, but, you know, I mean, all of my all of my references from [00:03:00] London were pretty much, um, based on films I'd seen. And so, you know, the reality is a lot different. And so it was a real shock landing there, but, um um yeah, it was a It was a big shock getting there, but it was, you know, it was amazing. So what did you think you were going to, um, some sort of version of 100 and one Dalmatians. Yeah. Um, and and And also, I wasn't I didn't really plan on staying there. [00:03:30] I kind of, you know, had enough money to catch a train around Europe and just kind of that ran out and so didn't speak any other languages enough to be able to live there at the time. So, um, landed back in London. Can you compare what it was like as a as a young gay man say in New Zealand to that of when you kind of landed in London? Um, I, I would say that just it was the, um the acceptance of diversity was and and not and that applies across the board with [00:04:00] all kind of, um any anyone different really is. But I mean, I went straight and worked in cafes and bars and SoHo and so as you know, I think I think on a level I really I wanted to belong somewhere. And so that was what I'd heard was a place that would, you know, could be very accepting a commun, you know, a whole community that would be very accepting. And so not just pockets. You know, it was a whole district, almost. And so, um, when I when I think of the when I think of the difference, [00:04:30] um, yeah, I think of I suppose I can equate it to, you know, going out. Really? Because that was how I kind of that was how I socialised when I first, you know, that's how I met other gay people. That's how I identified with people. And so I think about where I went to in in Wellington, which was Caspers. You know, I remember going two years later. I was going to I remember going into SP QR. I think I don't know if you know if that still exists and then [00:05:00] going into London, and there's just a myriad of different kind of places you can go to for different kind of subcultures within gay culture, which is really, um, you know, it feels like, um, you know, there's a whole smorgasbord of things to do people to meet and, you know, trouble to get into which is you know, really exciting for a teenager, because at the time in Wellington what? There was literally one or two bars, wasn't there? Yeah, I think there was [00:05:30] I I knew kind of in a kind of very scared way, ran into Caspers one time and then ran out again. That was kind of my experience of Caspers, but, you know, that was it. So So why, that kind of scared us going to? Well, just because it was it was also foreign to me. You know what I mean? I knew I identified with being gay, but I had no education at all on what being gay was all about. There was nothing, you know, no education in school or parents or, you know, no role models. So what kind of education [00:06:00] in London? In terms of the kind of gay side of things? Immersion? No, I mean, I met. You know, I met a lot of different people from different kind of walks of life. And also, um, I I, um I was working. I could I could have either come back to New Zealand and and studied or stayed there, and I wasn't quite finished travelling and So, I. I, um, started working for an airline and then studied on my days off, so I could kind of, you know, kill two [00:06:30] birds kind of thing. And I met a lot of gay people through that industry as well. The kind of travel industry which is in, you know, crew, which is a whole other thing. And the study. This is studying photography. Yeah, I studied first at city and guilds and then University of Westminster. Why Photography? Um, I think it's got I thought about this recently, actually. And I think it's got something to do with, um [00:07:00] observing. I like observing, and I can still be a part of what is going on, but there is a kind of safe distance with the camera between me and the, you know, the action, Um, and also that I find that photography helps me find order and what's going on around me because it literally frames what is going on. And so, you know, um, the experience can [00:07:30] be reflected on in a physical way. Can you describe your photographic eye? I mean, what what What are the things that you you look for? Um, I, uh I like finding, um I want to say it's kind of glibly as, like, order in the chaos, but I like finding kind of beauty or, um, transforming a kind of banal into the [00:08:00] sublime, if you like, like, um, the everyday into something extra extraordinary. What would be an example? Like a brick wall, for instance, Um, and looking at the patterns within it and the the shadows that it casts and the the, um, kind of like anthropological markings that people have made on them. And, um, you know, things like that [00:08:30] kind of like a a piece and and the kind of all that kind of tension that happens around public space. What about some of the techniques that you are using in in kind of capturing images? I'm thinking of What? What are your thoughts on things like, say, light and shadow? Um, I don't I don't like to use any artificial light. Really. All of the photography that I do is ambient, ambient, ambient light. And, um, I don't really like post production. I mean, I don't [00:09:00] I'm not against it. It's just not something that I I find satisfying with photographic process. It's, um You know, I remember doing some night exposures not long ago. And they were, um, you know, up to 56 minute exposures because it was so dark. Um, and so you know, II, I like that kind of like that yellowy orange hue that happens in that kind of environment. Um, I tend to use colour [00:09:30] a lot. I just think it's I mean, I know that no photography is a document of truth or anything, you know, as simple as that. But I find it represents more truthfully, a perception of what happened. I did. I did. I started off taking black and white photography as a kind of, um, I don't know when I was learning more about the technical side of photography and doing my own printing and things like that, um, but [00:10:00] kind of went into colour photography and kind of got introduced more into the theoretical side of visual, you know, do you think studying something like photography kind of helps or hinders the kind of creative process? I think it's one. It's it. That's a Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, one of it's definitely one of those things where, um, sometimes It's like when you look at the moon and you have that wonder [00:10:30] about it. And then as soon as you go there, you know it inside out. And so the wonder is gone. And so there is an element of that. But then, you know, there is also, um, that you know that it can be that can be changed as well. You can use those tools to to create something else in a in a bizarre way, studying something so intensely. Does it alter your kind of love for the for the medium, Or, [00:11:00] I mean, do I mean do you still find that you get excited by photography? Yeah, I do. I love it. I. I really love it. It it it it is really exciting, You know, I it it frustrates me when I see images. Things that I don't like as much. You know, there's that kind of, um or, um maybe things that I don't feel like it conceptually sound, you know, Um, but III I love it. I love it. And it still it still excites me. [00:11:30] Definitely. Yeah. What are your thoughts on using, um, digital verse analogue film cameras. Well, I've got. I've got a like a selection of cameras and, you know, my favourite camera to use is a, um, medium format camera. And so when I can afford film, that's what I use, which isn't very often. And so it's, um, just for economic reasons, really. I use, um, digital a lot more now, Do you find there's a difference in quality in terms of digital vs film? [00:12:00] Uh, you can They can be, Yeah, I mean less and less. So now I mean, I've yeah less and less so, but there is a there is a difference. And also there's some sort of there's a there's some sort of craft. Um, I mean, when I first started studying photography, digital didn't really exist, you know? And so there was a real craft attached to it, and that's what I kind of learned first was the craft side of it. And so, um, yeah, I've got a kind of nostalgic, [00:12:30] nostalgic attachment to film, I guess, because I guess there are all those things of like, um with digital that you can shoot hundreds of images and then pick the best aware, I guess, with film, you know, you locked into only having, you know, 36 Nega negatives. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I remember doing, um, shoot plan lists, and so I would, you know, um, be shooting AAA moving swing, and I'd have to, you know, have a couple of roles of films, so I'd have to plan each one. I'd write [00:13:00] down the ISO numbers and, you know, every all the different kind of, um, technical information and a little notebook and carry it around around with me. So when I got them printed, I knew what they were. And, you know, that kind of that kind of thing just doesn't happen now it's all listed there. You know, when you when you, um, upload your images or even when you take it, it shows it. So, um yeah, yeah, it's just a lot more immediate and a lot more disposable. Now I think there's less of a less. There's potentially. Well, there is less thought process involved [00:13:30] in taking photographs. Now, you mentioned briefly before about post production, and I'm wondering, do you when you when you're seeing an image through your viewfinder, are you framing it in the camera, or do you frame it afterwards in postproduction. I frame it in the camera. Yeah, yeah, especially with long exposures. You know, I like because I the the for me, it's the act of photo photographing. That's what I really like. And the the exhibiting of it is [00:14:00] is, um, my probably my least favourite element of the process. But it is a necessary one to kind of finish it off. You know, um, but, um, I like the process of taking that time to frame a shot and give the subject, you know, the attention that it deserves. You've recently had an exhibition at, um, the Regent's Canal. London. Yeah, tell me about that. Um, that was a project that I did when I was doing my masters at Goldsmiths. [00:14:30] And, um, it was a research, um, project I did on, uh, kind of try and an attempt to kind of reevaluate the socio-economic value of the canal and establish a new sense of worth social worth within it. Because I had such a I had a really complex and, um, interesting history. And it was at it and it, you know, a few years ago it was at a real [00:15:00] kind of turning point. And so I thought it was a necessary thing to kind of look at this and get its true worth. But at least at least look at it. If not kind of define it a seed for that kind of exhibition. Does it come as you take the photographs, or does it happen afterwards, or does it happen? Like right at the beginning before you've actually taken anything? Um, a bit of both, really. But kind of like things just evolve ideas. Kind of like pop in and out [00:15:30] of my head. And then they kind of, you know, I'll be II. I used to live on the I used to live on, um right on the canal and gains studios, Hitchcock or film studios. And so I used to go on the canal, you know, every day kind of thing. And so it was a you know, it was a part of my life in London, and I could see it changing, you know? So you know, hugely in the time that I lived there and, um, I just thought it was just such an, you know, amazing resource for London and something that's kind of neglected a lot of the time. And so, [00:16:00] um, and also under used, um, as a way to get around. You know, it's used for a lot of other purposes. Um, but, uh, yeah, under used or undervalued in a lot of ways. Do you carry a camera with you all the time? Um, I carry my phone camera on me now, but I used to Yeah, I used to. You know, my iPhone seems to do the trick for most things around at the moment. Or, you know, if I I'll, I'll take a photograph of something [00:16:30] with my iPhone and come back and then take a photograph with a you know, another camera because it sounds like a lot of the images that you're taking are, uh are quite fleeting, whether it's a a wall or the light hitting a particular object, Um, or I guess, your your your new project, which is lost. Yeah, which is a very different tact, actually. For me. Um uh, because a lot of I mean, a lot of my stuff in the past has been of that kind of [00:17:00] liminal space. I guess that we kind of pass through, but not really exist in and or or known really kind of really knows or connects with, You know, Um and so, um yeah, this lost project is very different, you know? I mean, it's not about that space. It's about the people who inhabit. Yeah. So what is lost? So, um, lost is a project. Um, I'm doing about how [00:17:30] people deal with loss in their lives and how also, they deal with, um, looking to fill that void of what is lost and whether that the act of looking for what is lost actually goes some way into filling what that void leaves. I mean, the the way that I mean, it's the the the way that I'm kind of approaching. It is looking at lost post posters that people look at, like bring it back down to it. Kind of real physicality. So [00:18:00] looking at the, um, lost posters that people leave around on lamp posts, which is a really unique thing, I think in, In, In, in Wellington, there's not many capital cities in the world that can have that have lost posters around that you know that people will walk, walk past and kind of thing. Oh, Yeah, that little puppy, you know, And so, um and so it it feels very local as well, Which I can I like after, you know, recently moving back and, um, and contacting these people and asking them, you know, certain questions about, [00:18:30] um, what was lost, how long they had it. And, um what, what what the loss of it means to them and whether the act of looking has done the thing, whether they found it, Um, whether whether, um, I think when people lose something, then there's a real danger of my, you know, mythologizing the thing. And so, um, if they do recover it again, does it live up to their expectations, which is another kind of, you know, angle. And but that would be a difficult thing [00:19:00] in this project is photographing what isn't there, in a way. So what are some of the things that have been lost that that that you found in terms of the posters? So, um, I've told a couple of friends about this as well, and, um, they've been amazing and like saying, Steve, Steve, you know, you've got to come to this poster at this place, you know, which is really It's really great, actually, but, um, there's been quite a few cuddly toys, um, cats, dogs. [00:19:30] Um, there was, um this wasn't a poster, but, um, someone lost a job. Um, and so you know, I. I mean, the the subject of loss, you know, losing things is universal. I mean, everyone has experienced it and, you know, to different degrees, you know, from the banal to the profound kind of loss. But each each circumstance is really personal, and so everyone can kind of relate to it on on some level, [00:20:00] Um, there was a poster for a missing person, and that was where I kind of had to really kind of think. OK, there is a universal subject here, you know, subject matter. But, um, where are my limits and this and so I think, you know, missing people, Although, yeah, that's a tricky one. Did you call up the number? No, no, no, no, not yet. I have it, but, um, [00:20:30] I don't know. I mean, I you know, I'm not approaching this in a trivial way at all, but I think when people go missing, there's there's, um of, you know, there's you know, it's It's pretty layered. And so I'm not quite sure. I think that might be 11 step too far for people. Hm? When you are calling people up, what are the reactions? How does that conversation go? Yeah, it's really interesting that there are people who, um [00:21:00] and I have to I've actually got a script that I write that I that I wrote, Um, because, you know, I have to mention the lost poster, and then they all of a sudden think that I might have information about the missing thing, and so I've got to pretty quickly give a quite a, you know, a really detailed background about me, what I'm doing and why I'm calling. And also say, you know, I'm sorry. I don't have any kind of leads on what's missing, [00:21:30] but I would like you to participate in this project, and, um and it's been really positive. Yeah. Generally, it's been positive. So what do you want from them? Um, some time. I mean, it's about an hour. It takes I would like to go from there to their house, interview them, ask, ask them the questions, ask, you know, um, answer their questions and also, um, photograph them and also the space where the thing [00:22:00] was and, um, and around the house, Yeah. What? What they, you know, kind of like, uh, where they spent time with the thing. And, um, kind of what markets left in their life. I wrote a kind of I wrote an essay the other day on photographing the missing, which is kind of really kind of interesting thing. And that kind of misnomer of the stillness of the image, Even though it's something, [00:22:30] it's so it's it's still it's so evocative and it can and so loaded, and I kind of can equate that to, um, photographing the missing. Have any of those situations unsettled you? Yeah. I mean, there. I mean, II. I can't I. I keep having second thoughts about the whole project. You know, it's not a pleasant subject, really. I mean, it's about people dealing with the loss of something, um, and so they're all quite kind [00:23:00] of unsettling, and they're also kind of. There's a lot of hope as well. So I you know, that's the That's the lasting impression. I wonder also if it's about the kind of, um, immediacy of your calling the person up. I'm thinking that it would be quite different if someone puts a poster and within a week you call them and then you do the same thing. But it's like, you know, three or four months down the track, Have you found? Yeah, I. I don't I. I wait. As soon as I see [00:23:30] it, I wait a bit. I've been waiting at least a month before phoning them, and sometimes the posters are gone in that time. But, you know, I've taken photographs of the posters. Um, because I think there's got to be for this project. There's got to be that a little bit of distance between, um, losing the thing and also a bit of perspective for them on how they've gone about filling it. If it's too soon, it's too raw for a start. And also, [00:24:00] um, they there's a potential to be just immersed in the loss rather than a perspective about their recovering it. And what kind of level of loss are we talking? I mean, are people really emotionally bound up on on the things that they've lost? Or is it quite I mean, um, people are emotionally tied up in these things, you know? And that's the whole That's the That's the point. You know, I don't think anyone would go to the lengths of looking for something [00:24:30] and, you know, making posters and putting them around town. If there there wasn't that kind of emotional attachment to the thing, given the fact that you are approaching them a certain distance after the event, have things been found or have they replaced those things? Yes. Yeah, they have been found. Um, and and that was why I was That was one of my one of the kind of one of my interest in this project is that Did they [00:25:00] make this a thing bigger than what it was when it was gone? Because, you know, when things are when there's a hole left by something, it's, um there's a danger that it can be. It's it's value or worth could be blown out of proportion. Or it's, um, you know, because it because it's so consuming. Um, there's a chance that, um, yeah, that kind of mythologizing of the thing could could happen. And if it if it then if it's then been recovered, [00:25:30] are they kind of like, you know, there's a potential for it to be for there to be disappointment. When you are going to people's houses, you're photographing the situations. But are you also doing kind of other recordings or other documentation? I have been doing a bit of tape recording of the conversation as well, but mostly it's notes as well. And that hasn't been consistent. So I I mean, I would like to I mean, ideally, I would have liked to have filmed filmed the whole meeting. Um and [00:26:00] I I'm still would like to do that. And so this will end up as a yeah, good question. I don't know. That's the thing. I mean, um, I know it could be a and also because the the the words the kind of interview, if you like, is really an important part of it for me. And so the words are really important, and it's important for me to show them and how it's how it's kind of published. And so um, [00:26:30] yeah, I don't I'm I'm not sure. I. I know it would be a great stills. Um, exhibition. Um but it could be a really interesting film as well, And also, you know, I think it could work in lots of formats as a book as well. How has this affected you? Um, I think it's really kind of It's I mean, well, I mean, I you know, I've had some big change in my life recently with moving from London to here and finishing jobs and a relationship [00:27:00] ending. And so, you know, there's, um um you know, I've experienced, um, quite, I wouldn't Yeah, you know, a certain amount of loss. And so it's been. And I think this is what's kind of sparked this interest for me in the first place, you know? And also, um, for the first time in a while, brought my attention back to people instead of space that people have it. So, um, yeah, and so it's been quite interesting to see how people deal with this deal [00:27:30] with loss, and so it's been kind of helpful. I don't know if it's been helpful, but it's definitely been cathartic, cathartic in the sense that we all experience this. You know, it's not a lonely thing. Yeah, how do you deal with loss? I? I interview other people about it.
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