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How would you describe your identity? But is the main one, I think on my tumble page, it says I am butch Gender queer, Jewish and sad. Um, I am gay every way. No matter who I'm attracted to, it still feels gay, because if I'm attracted to a girl, I feel like I'm a butch [00:00:30] girl. But if I'm attracted to a boy, I feel like I'm a boy. And then if I'm attracted to another gender queer person, it's the gayest because gender queer all the way. And I also think that Butch is a gender in itself. So, um, I'm not a butch lesbian. I'm just Butch. And that's the thing. Is that how do you, um, talk to other people about your identity, especially people who aren't part of the trans community and maybe [00:01:00] don't understand what that means? I Mostly I don't like, um, I know with my parents, I made them read. I made them read, Um, persistence by is is that, um I think it's Jo Nestle and whatever I made them. OK, um, so with my parents, with my mother, especially, I was just kind of offhand mention [00:01:30] being butch and she'd be like, Oh, don't say that. That's that's not nice. You're very pretty. You don't have to be butch. You don't have to be mean to yourself. And then I made her read assistance, and she was like, Oh, I get it now And that was a thing. But mostly, um, outside of the queer community, I just, um, describe myself as well. If people ask me, I will go into detail about being gender queer and being not feeling like a girl or a boy [00:02:00] and being specifically butch, but they don't ask me, um I just assume that they assume that I'm a butch lesbian, and that's how I kind of act around them. That's probably partially because of my anxiety that I don't want to upset the apple cart. Yeah. Yeah. What reaction? Um, did your mom and your family have once they read that book? I mean, I was like, I [00:02:30] was like this already. I just think they thought the butch was like dyke Or, you know, I thought there was a derogatory word. Um, they didn't realise that Butch was like, kind of like, you know, when it's it's a really hot day and um you haven't had you. You left your drink bottle at home, and you haven't had a drink all day. And you get home and you fill up like the biggest glass in the cupboard, and you just drink it all in one go. That is how described myself as Butch [00:03:00] felt the first time. And I don't think I don't think people who aren't in the queer community or even people who are just part of the, um, gay community instead of the queer community. I don't think that they understand that. Yeah. How did you How did you come to the term? But especially, I guess a lot of people, um, these days might see, but as a term that was associated with kind of lesbian spec in the I don't know, quite a long time ago. Um, but how [00:03:30] How did you find it? And how do you think it's evolved? Um, well, I mean, I knew what Butch meant, you know, growing up. Well, not growing up. But, you know, being 12 13 or whatever. And then I, um a person at Q youth le me a book, uh, called Butch is a noun, which is by SP Bergman, [00:04:00] and I was already, like, pretty masculine. But at that point, I wasn't sure if I was just a masculine girl or if I was a trans boy or if I was somewhere in the middle because all the gender queer people you see on the Internet are skinny and pretty. And, you know, I'm not skinny. Um, I'm a very specific [00:04:30] kind of I have very weird looks, I don't know, but, um, that the book was butcher's Anno and Big Beman opens by, say, talking about how they think that Butch is a gender in itself and you can be a butch lesbian. But you can also just be butch by itself. Do you know many other people who identify as or is there like an online community or anything else? I know more people [00:05:00] who are than Butch. I don't think I know anyone who's describe who has gone out of their way to describe themselves to me as Butch. I've I've talked to people and being like, Oh, by the way, do you identify as Butch? Because it's very lonely? Um, and part of part of my being butch is making Butch a safe thing to be because I think a lot of masculine people are just taking taking up space that isn't [00:05:30] theirs. And, um, I know a lot of I know a lot of, um, gender queer people, but not many. I don't think I've met any who specifically identifies Butch online too. Um, yeah, it's I. I think that's partly because it is seen as old fashioned. Um, do you want to, um, tell [00:06:00] me a bit more about, um, what you said about making but safe and, um, masculine people taking up too much space? Yeah, I I'm good at talking about this. OK, so a lot of a lot of masculine people, I, I OK, I'm most of my friends, a woman, or at least identified like, um, even my, um, male friends. [00:06:30] A lot of them identifies as FM, and for a long time, femininity has been seen as weak and lesser and just not as good as being masculine. And, um, I'm not masculine because I I'm not masculine because I'm not feminine. I'm masculine because I'm masculine, and I don't wanna use that to take away from the feminine does. Am I making sense? Because I thought I if I could be, I would be [00:07:00] because I just think them are great. But I just I do not I do not work in that way, but a lot of a lot of the masculine people I've met, Um I don't want to offend anyone, is the thing, But, um, of quite a few of the more masculine, especially, um, assigned female at birth. People are kind of overcompensating. And they, um a lot of them talk shit [00:07:30] about feminine people or, um, you know, talk about the the bitches and stuff and I I, um part of being Bush for me is making Is is making space for the for for for feminine people to be feminine. And I don't wanna, um II. I feel bad about talking about it, too, because I feel like I'm taking taking it away from feminine people. [00:08:00] Does that make sense? Like I feel by talking about this, I am talking over people whose voices should be heard because people take me more seriously because I'm masculine. And I've noticed that since I started dressing more masculine, acting more masculine and change my name and stuff, and I feel bad about it. I don't know. I'm sorry. I feel like I'm talking myself into a hole. I think that's a really cool thing to be aware of. And it is, [00:08:30] You know, that is like a reality that people go through. But I think it's really cool to talk about that. And, um, you know, and about making Butch a safe word and what you're I think what you're talking about is actually awesome compared to people who are putting down femininity. I know I keep saying this, but a major part of me being butch is the fact that films exist. Like that's I'm I'm not just Butch. I am. I am part of butch slash FM, even though I don't Yeah, [00:09:00] what does family mean to you? The way I see films is that they're taking something that has been taken away from them and made into something that you're not supposed to want to be, and they're taking that back and making it even better than it was before. Does that make sense? [00:09:30] So what's it like living in Nelson as a young, queer trans person? Nobody knows if I'm a boy or a girl. No one knows anywhere else. But, like, um, some a lot of people aren't sure sure how to deal with it. Um, I, I get a lot of street harassment. Kind of, Uh, are you a fat or a dyke? It's OK if you don't. Yeah. Um, [00:10:00] mostly, it's that people don't know how to react to someone who looks like me, whereas in somewhere, like Wellington where I've been living for the past eight months or so, um, they they've seen a fair amount of people who kind of present the same way as me and they they're kind of used to it, or if they're not used to it, they they they just know not to say [00:10:30] anything or be a dick about it. And what was your school like? And your school experience has been I went to an all girls school, which is weird, because after the fact, I realised that quite a few of my friends from that school who went to that school are not girls. Um, but that was that I have a lot of feelings about about the school. Am I allowed to say what school I went to? I went to Nelson college for girls, which, um, has a uniform. And the uniform is [00:11:00] a skirt. Um, I think I got you know, um, year nine. I didn't know what to expect. And I wasn't out until the end of year nine. I mean, people probably knew because I'm I'm I'm pretty obvious, but, um, Nelson College for girls puts a lot of emphasis on the whole young ladies thing. And being you've got to be [00:11:30] academic and you've got to be nicely presented. And that does not mean wearing no makeup and having short hair. That means wearing a small amount of makeup makeup to make you look so called natural, Um, and having your hair neatly pinned back and your glass tucked in nicely And you know all that stuff. And I, um, didn't do that. I didn't feel [00:12:00] like I was really a part of that school. I was in the, um the accelerant class for the first two years, which was full of people who were smarter than me. Because I I learned in a very specific way. Um, so it felt like everyone there, like, I felt like I was the dumbest person in the class. Basically and they were all really pretty girly girls. And the nicest [00:12:30] thing I feel this the nicest thing my tutor teacher ever said to me was Have you lost weight? Which was not a not a very good thing to say to me. It wasn't very nice anyway, but that was a thing. I was going to talk about this this this other thing because when I got to about year 11, um, girls started saying things to me like, Oh, you're so funny. You're so cute. If you were a boy, [00:13:00] I would totally date you, which was not. It was like on the one hand, I was like, Oh, yeah, war fuzzy. But on the other hand, though, um, it kind of felt like, Oh, let's be Let's be nice to the lesbian. On the other hand, we not year 11, is I Probably That was probably when I was, like, starting to come out, um, as being gender queer. Or, you know, not being a girl I was starting to, like, [00:13:30] turn up over my head and try to figure out what I was and girls saying if you were a guy, I would totally date you kind of reminded me that I wasn't a guy. Another thing that I like to talk about is how manly that skirt made me feel. Um, I did a a class at the boys college, and, you know, I have to walk the 10 minutes to the boys college to get there. And, you know, I'd be in the skirt walking onto the boys' [00:14:00] college grounds, and I would feel like twice as masculine as every other person there, which is really weird. I always felt super manly when I was wearing that skirt in a room full of boys. I don't know. I don't know why that was, Um, yeah, I didn't like the college girls. It wasn't. I just don't think I was good at school any in any way. But then after that, I went to for my last year, and I introduced myself as Spencer and everyone kind of went with it, [00:14:30] but then they kind of stopped going with it. But then they went with it again. Because teachers, you know, teachers call me by my birth name. So people kind of figured out that it wasn't that Spencer wasn't my birth name, but, um they're a lot, but, um, it was it's very different to N CJ. Um because obviously it's a coed school, and I was treated [00:15:00] well. The girls treated me more like a boy at NA than they had it. Nelson College for girls, Probably because I wasn't wearing a girl's uniform everywhere. What was it like having alliances at both of those schools while you were there? Uh, first off the girls college, Chris was actually started by me and a couple of my friends, Um, and then one of those friends [00:15:30] left to go to earlier than me and I kind of lay down on the floor and had a bit of a bit of a cry for no good reason. Um, not about the que straight lines, but about other things that were going But I stopped going to the queer straight lines because of that. But anyway, um so so the Nelson Girls Trade alliance, even though I helped [00:16:00] found it was not a big part of my life at that. At that point, the que alliance was probably a bigger deal in my life than the girls one, even though I wasn't going to, um why was that? I was I don't know. I don't I don't know. I think it was probably Q youth that that did it because, you know, um, that started up. Was I? How old was I when started? [00:16:30] Was I 14? It started in 2009. I don't know. Not many people went to the went to, um, the girls alliance when I went and then I stopped going and it kind of went out of my hands. And also, I'm not very I'm not very social person. Like I I'd like to be. But, um, at that point, the Quest alliance, a girl seemed more like a sit [00:17:00] around and chat about our day thing. And I wasn't good at at that. I didn't end up going to nags very much either when I got to. But before, before I got to nags was a bit bigger thing. Probably because of was great, though Keith was was like, a good thing. Would you want me to say, Do you want to talk more about III? I do. But I don't know what to say. How did you get involved? I can't remember. I think you told [00:17:30] you told someone to tell me that I got coming to come along to a committee meeting or something, which is Yeah, Um what does it mean to be part of that group? Does that mean? Well, I was recognised as being queer, whereas at at school I was the lesbian. Um, at school, it was a big deal for me to be queer. And people were like, That's the That's the lesbian. [00:18:00] Oh, my God. But at QU, everyone was queer, and no one really cared what I was. And, um, I went to a that, um Well, Q organised for me to be able to get there. I went to and that was the first time someone ever asked me what pronoun I used. And it was a very nice thing to happen, basically, but, um Oh, wow. Um, [00:18:30] my favourite parts of Q always the parts where we actually talk about issues and important things are sort of sitting around and having a chat because, you know, that might be I'm I'm better at talking about things where I've got something directed directly, You know, that I have to talk about, um and I like educating people too. which is weird. I don't know if it's weird. [00:19:00] If if the people listening to this in the distant future knew me now, they would understand why that's weird, because I'm not a people person. But I do like I like talking about important things. Um, and kind of gave me a space to talk about important things with people who already knew the basis of what I was talking about. What's the difference between being, you know, being in a space where people, you know, kind of [00:19:30] you have something in common with the identity stuff? Or at least they know a little bit about it compared to outside that world? One thing about QQ youth is that no one assumed I was a girl, which is great. Um, no one, really. I mean, at the at the outset, Um, I think you is is special. At least when I was [00:20:00] attending, like every day, and that people were. These are teenagers who are already really well educated about the queer community and not just about, um, gay and lesbian issues, but about trans issues and, um, intersectionality and how queer issues and feminist issues and, um, racism and [00:20:30] um, all all all that jazz and how they they all fit together. And all these are These are really smart kids, like, um, at the time, I thought it was normal, but looking back on it now, we were, like, 14, 15, 16 years old. And we knew all this stuff, which is which is really cool. Um, and you also has this This, um this great library. I know that that sounds really weird to say, but it's like, Oh, my God, it's such a good library. [00:21:00] So many good books. Um, that was a good thing. Yeah, Q is isn't just I feel like an asshole for for talking about about certain types of people like this. But Q isn't just run by by, um, you know, upper middle class white gay men. And but it's it's it's it's it's cool. And it's it's good. And I think [00:21:30] I don't know. I have a feeling they might be different from other quest straight alliances like community quest alliances, not school quest alliances. But, um, yeah, I don't know. So has having a sense of, like, belonging to that group. And, um, like, kind of a community been really important to you. Like I like, I've I've been saying I'm not the most social animal, [00:22:00] but for a lot of my life, I felt like I was, like, walking, walking around with, like, a the big glass box around me. And, like, I was looking out at the people, but they couldn't see me, but with Q you it was like I. I didn't have that anymore. Yeah, I'm not sure how I went. Now, I haven't been back in a in a while, but I'm gonna go on Wednesday and I don't know, I'm scared, like, [00:22:30] because I haven't been back in ages. And it might have changed because I I've been living in well in Wellington for a while. So what, um, do you think are some of the main issues that are facing current trans in New Zealand at the moment, like, um, major issues or like, the average you talk about issues. I know. I think there needs II. I am absolutely 100% of the [00:23:00] idea that there needs to be more trans representation in media and not just binary trends, but, um, every every gender should be represented. Um, the the marriage. Equality thing was good, but I and you know, I'm glad that I can get married, because that's actually a thing that I want to do. But I didn't think it was the thing that was needed the most. At that point, [00:23:30] I think they could have focused on a lot of different, more important things. Um, especially queer youth, the the I'm trying to put this tactfully but bluntly. The the the suicide problem with queer youth and how so many of my friends [00:24:00] have depression and having suicidal thoughts. Um, I don't think people I don't think the heroes really understand that. Um, it's not about having, you know that that that couple on modern family, that's not enough. Uh, Brittany and Santana are not enough. We need people who actually look like us and have our same problems and stuff represented [00:24:30] in the media. And, um, but coming out as as a lesbian was the easiest thing I did after that. Figuring out that I wasn't actually a girl or solely attracted to girls was really hard and kind of having to backtrack a little bit, but also make this huge leap into, um explaining to people [00:25:00] that that I'm a different gender. Um, so the Yeah, that's that's one thing I know. There's so many, so many things. Um, I just want people to be more educated, especially teenagers who might be just figuring out that they're queer. Um, so they don't They realise they don't have to try and fit themselves into [00:25:30] the gay box or the lesbian box. They can be anything. And I want people to know that, um, queerness is fluid. I I'm saying all these things that, like other people, have said to me, but they're true, and I feel like they're cliches, but they're true. I want people to realise that queerness is fluid and you don't have to be one thing for the rest of your life. And if you're if if you've been identifying as a lesbian, you've told everyone you're a lesbian, you've had a girlfriend for the past five years, and one day you're attracted to Harry Styles. I don't [00:26:00] want that to be a bad thing. Like on on chasing Amy When, um, what's her name? I think Alicia is the character's name tells all her lesbian friends. I'm seeing someone and starts using they as the pronoun. They're like, Why? Why are we playing the pronouns game? You're not dating a man, are you? And she's like, Yes, actually, and it's a big deal, and it shouldn't be a big deal. You can still be a lesbian if if if. If that's the term that you identify most with, then be be a lesbian. Just just date a guy for [00:26:30] a while or or not. You know, just you don't have to stay one thing for the rest of your life, and you don't have to change yourself to fit into that thing, even if that thing is what you are. So you don't see your identity reflected in the media at all. The closest thing to my identity that I've seen in the media is Big boo from Orange is the new black Who is the the [00:27:00] butch character? Um, but no, I don't I don't see teenage, um, gender queer characters at all, most mhm so called butch characters. I keep going to make the bunny ears, but I say so called instead. But, um, most so called butch characters in Media are butch lesbians, and they are women, and [00:27:30] they're often treated as a joke, which is horrible because being butch is like the coolest thing. Um, part of it is because I'm not a thin person. And all the all the sexy, masculine lesbians on TV are like Shane from the L word. And, um, what other lesbians are on TV? [00:28:00] Oh, no. Sorry. Um, but most yeah, most British people on TV are definitely women. And, um, most trans people on TV are binary. Um and that's not even very much because I can think of, like, three trans characters in TV off the top of my head. And that is not enough. Yeah, I don't see people like me on TV or anywhere [00:28:30] except for the Internet. Do you think things are changing? Like, what do you think are gonna be the issues in, like 10, 2050 years time? I think things are changing, but I don't think things are changing quickly enough. I'm scared that in and 15 years time there will still only be a small amount of queer people on TV, and they'll be the the, um the kind of queer people that straight people want queer people to be. [00:29:00] If that makes sense. Um, And maybe just to sum up, what's your favourite thing about being a queer trans person in New Zealand? I wasn't expecting that question. Um, I need some. I need some time to think. I don't know. I don't like them that I think that's my favourite thing. New Zealand, New Zealand Films [00:29:30] Ace. Good job, ladies.
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