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Um how would you describe your identity? Um, I'm a queer trans man to set the language that we've used to talk about, uh, identities in relation to sex orientation and gender has changed. But of course it has. Um, I have frequent discussions with the older people in the community. Who, um I don't know what I'm talking about or think that I must be being offensive [00:00:30] by using words like queer and my mom in particular. You know, she she helped me off using the word queer to identify myself and my friend. She's like, No, you can't use words like that. I know it. It's just you can't do it. I put it about myself and my friend. She's like, Mama, what does that mean to you? Oh, well, for me, it just, um it means a sexual and gender identity which, uh, is maybe not the norm. So, um, if your [00:01:00] trans are not or if you're, um, gender queer and not sis, or if you're bisexual or gay or transsexual or something else and then there's, like, identities that may or may not be concluded depending if they want to be like a people and stuff or intersex people. Sometimes they want to be queer, and sometimes they don't. Cool. Um, when did you first start discovering your sexual orientation or [00:01:30] gender was different? So I, um I knew I was queer since I was about 13. So, um, felt horribly in love with a girl when I was 13. But I only figured out I'd gone horrible in love when she left to, um, to to move to a different city. So that was kind of miss timed. Um, I didn't. It took me a lot longer to figure out I was Trans. I didn't really figure that out until I was, um 23. Um, [00:02:00] what were both of those, like experiences? Kind of like for you? Um, yeah. In terms of not not particularly a angsty at all. It was just like, uh, I think the best way to describe me coming out was I was just like, Oh, I like this girl, I guess I. I guess that means I must be a lesbian. Oh, well, what kind of so did you come out kind of publicly? Yeah. I mean, um, [00:02:30] I came out publicly, but I think everyone kind of wasn't particularly surprised. I wasn't. Um no, I wasn't friends with anyone that would have for any differently about it. For if you're slightly weird to start with, you're probably not going to be friends with highly conservative people that might judge you for that kind of thing. Same for coming out as Trans. Um, yeah, I guess. More of an interesting thought that came to my head when I finally figured out. I was like, Why the fuck did it [00:03:00] take me so long to figure this out? Why did I have to wait until I was 23? Um, sure. Certainly. Lots of the signs were there for a lot longer, but it takes a while for this kind of thing to click. And again, you know, if you're hanging around with lots of queer and liberal and, um, people. Anyway, then, um, they're probably not going to judge you too harshly for being trans as well, even if you know, they don't really know what that means or anything. And did [00:03:30] you get when you first came out as queer? Um, did you get any kind of homophobia for that? Um, it's hard to tell. I mean, I was a, uh, a comprehensive high school in rural England. Um, and to be honest, I was getting quite a lot of abuse, just intensive bullying anyway, um, and that continued, but I couldn't say if that was because I was queer on it was about the same level. So I was I don't think it was particular building because I was queer. I was just [00:04:00] because I was me and yeah, I I'm not sure if it was anything to do with my sexuality or gender identity. Um, So what was your journey to figuring out that you were trans like, um, I was, um, dating a girl at the time who had, um, had a few friends that were Trans guys and had been, um her best friends had been, [00:04:30] uh, been a trans guy at high school. And so she she knew quite a lot about it, and she was quite, um, quite good at making me feel OK about things. And, um and that helped a lot. So is it some something she kind of saw in you before you herself or I? I don't I don't I don't I don't think she she knew anything until I told her. But she made me that When I when we talked about things, she made me feel like [00:05:00] comfortable talking about things and working things out. Um, she, um, has since stated a few, um, a few trans guys pre transition. And she makes the joke that this keeps on happening, and she's not sure exactly why, but quite a lot of the people that she's dated have transitioned after she's finished dating them. So, um, what messages or things Do you remember? Um, hearing about being [00:05:30] cool train from society, Like as you were growing up or yeah, even up until you realised that you were Trans. Um, my parents were quite, uh, quite liberal. So they were fine with whether I was, um, queer or straight. Um, I guess the only thing that they were worried about is that my mom, you know, she was like, Oh, yeah, no, that's fine. If you're a lesbian, you're still going to give me grandkids, right? It is pretty much her approach as long as she gets grandkids out of it. [00:06:00] So I think she was slightly more disappointed about the trends. Mainly not because of the gender stuff. But because of the grandkids, I'm one of four Children, so I'm sure someone else can provide, um, in terms of society, um, queer turn stuff is quite can be quite judged quite harshly in some parts of society. But I tend to forget that most of the time, because I tend to live in this little bubble of which it's considered normal. And I forget [00:06:30] about it until, you know, I end up somewhere, and then I'm like, Oh, yeah, yeah, this stuff, Um, I guess it's like a big vegetarian. The other day I went to I went to my friend's parents' house and like, Oh, is there anything you don't eat? And I, you know, I eat everything. And then when my friend turns around to me and be like you're a vegetarian, I'm like, Oh, yeah, But I guess if something's not considered weird among many of the people you hang out with, then it's not until [00:07:00] you do go go somewhere else and then quite harshly reminded, or you talk to your friends that come from a A quite a different background. And, yeah, I've certainly got a lot of friends that have had a a good deal, Much harder time of it than I have. Um, in terms of street harassment and stuff, I, um I've never had too much of a problem. Um, probably know more as [00:07:30] as a woman, Probably less than the average woman. Uh, because I, I think I think if you're butch looking, people tend to perhaps you a good deal less than if you're if you're firm looking and then more recently, um, just Yeah, it's quite strange. You see, a group of like, drunk guys walking towards you, and you might feel slight nervous, but they more likely to just be like, Hey, you got a spare beer or come with us and then you're like, interesting. That's not what I was expecting at all. Is it important to you to have that kind [00:08:00] of, like sense of community and belonging to this group? Yeah, Well, um, I don't know. It's it's It's always nice to have a community around you, and I don't I think in Dunedin there's not so much a community as to, um, lots of different communities are on top of each other, some overlapping to different extents to each other. you know. So there will be a community of, um, you know, there might be this this one queer woman community [00:08:30] or another queer women community and then a sports one and a circus one or a gay man, one or, you know, or they all overlap to different extents. And some of them I have been a part of, and some of them I haven't. Um, So whilst I know a lot of queer people I've never been a part of, um, like most of, like, I was never really part of the lesbian community in even though I knew a lot of of of lesbians [00:09:00] and queer women. Um, so, yeah, I don't know what kind of support or, um, opportunities for community are full and trans people in, um, there is a group called which I will speak very highly of which is this group of people to get that get together once a month and talk about stuff That's pretty cool. Um, but mainly it's just sort of, uh, people finding [00:09:30] each other through people who know people and bumping into each other. Um, you can feel before I came out as Trans I knew, uh very few Trans people. They think, Um, but there's actually quite a lot of people around. And then as soon as you're out as queer or Trans, suddenly everyone starts popping up from everywhere, and you realise that, you know, in even just in Dunedin, [00:10:00] I know sort of 2030 trans people. And then, you know, if you think about the people I know in other cities and stuff, the number grows as well. So there's actually loads of people here. It's just until you out yourself, you don't tend to to know people the same thing with being queer. Um, I think as someone who has been outwardly queer for a long, long time, it's always been, I guess it's the whole sort of queer visibility thing I've always had. Um, I've I've not really been [00:10:30] straight passing. So, uh, which is definitely has the benefits in terms of finding other queer people and making friends, um, and going to Sweden for a conference in six weeks time. And I was like, Oh, uh, and the week after the conference, I'm just going to see around Sweden and, uh, have fun, and I was like, Oh, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna find people. My friend made the joke that I should just go and find some women with queer haircuts. And then the network will work and I'll meet people. And the thing is that she's probably just about right [00:11:00] because there is this kind of, I think, because a lot of people you can't sort of rely on your own family as much. A lot of the time you might be estranged from them in some way or from, you know, the the community necessarily where you live. There is, I think, a more national and even international sort of links, um, between people and that can be really useful at times in terms of, you know, finding a place to stay or [00:11:30] knowing people that know people and making friends and stuff. There's a a few wonderful people, which, of course, I won't name But, um, in New Zealand that I swear I seem to know absolutely everyone in New Zealand and yeah, it's it's it's always like seems to keep some kind of national or international community going, you know, introducing people when people turn up in other cities and, you know, spreading the network and organising and all that kind of, [00:12:00] um, do you think that social media and the Internet are kind of playing more of a part in how we build community and connect across New Zealand, or even just in our regions? Oh, definitely. I mean, in terms of the Internet, it just means that there's a a massive, more amount of information available. Um, particularly in terms of either being in terms of being queer or trends as, um, if you're without the Internet, there's very little information available, especially if you're living in a rural [00:12:30] area. Um, like I remember, um, furiously. Like trying to find books about being being a gay woman when I was a teenager and, you know, living in rural England, you you'd find you'd find one every few years or something like that. And to be honest, most of the ones that you'd find would be absolutely terrible, and you'd still get them because you're like, Oh, look, it's there and they would they'd be absolutely like, Yeah, they'd be either be boring [00:13:00] or, you know, um, yeah, not much there. But there's so much on the Internet, Of course. I think this is sometimes, um, I think there's probably a fair few people that end up. I've got a few friends that probably have a bit of an Internet addiction. For that reason that there's maybe a bit more of a community and network and information on the Internet than it, it's easier to find people on the Internet than it than there is in real life. And I know a few people that definitely spend most of their [00:13:30] time on Tumblr as opposed to meeting people in the world. But things like, um, you know, I I have. I have I have issues with Facebook, same as everyone else does in terms of its business man model basically works on taking information, selling it to other people and that they have more information about you than the government would ever be able to collect through. You know, a fiendishly good spy network. Um, [00:14:00] but on the other hand, it's so damn useful. Um, if you imagine how many emails you'd have to send per week in order to stay in contact with that many people to that extent, it's like you'd have to be, you know, a proper old school man of letters. You know, um, you know, like, sort of the romantic era of poets and stuff like that Mad old Byron and the like, um, a day. So it definitely makes it easier to stay in contact with people that you're not necessarily seeing every day and, [00:14:30] um, especially if you're a little bit disorganised. It tells you when the events are happening, you know, you don't you don't have to give you like, Oh, what's happening that's happening. And you do kind of meet you notice people just outside your friendship circles as well and comment on the same things. You're like. Ah, yeah, so quite often you like, you'll know of people's existence for quite a while before you actually bump into them. Um, which is, which is always interesting. You can almost judge when someone's going to appear in your life based on how [00:15:00] often your friends talk about them and how often they come on the same things you're like. Well, I know this person exists, probably going to bump into them within the next month or two. Do you think it's harder, um, to be of the South Island? Um, I don't know I mean, I've spent most of my time in New Zealand in the South Island. Um, I lived in Auckland for two years. Um, but I don't know if I can really compare that. I was at high school and [00:15:30] I didn't find any. Um, there were no other queer people at my high school in the North Shore and the the problem with North Shore is slightly cut off, I think from the main city. And yeah, I just somehow didn't really fall into any of the queer stuff that was happening in Auckland. And I tried to follow up a few things, but there was sort of just, like, dead websites and things that obviously once existed. And the website hadn't been updated in two years and stuff. So it wasn't, um I didn't really find that much of here. And to be honest, I didn't really find that much [00:16:00] in Dunedin when I first moved down here as well. I was the only, um uh, yeah, it took. I think I think a lot of the the queer groups in Dunedin tend to be quite. There's not much officially organised. It's mainly just on a sort of person to person and friendship basis, which can make it quite hard if you're new to the city to meet people. Um, of course, I don't really have this problem now because I've lived in Dunedin for seven years and I know pretty much everyone now. [00:16:30] Um, but yeah, I do remember when I first arrived here? Um, I actually ended up dating a boy six weeks into, um into being at Carrington. This was actually the first boy boy you heard of. I only like to go before that. Um, anyways, but we dated for 4.5 years, so and I think it is more difficult to sort of get yourself involved in quest stuff if you like. Yeah. No, I'm quit. Yeah, I know I have a boyfriend. But [00:17:00] people Yeah, I guess you're just less likely to sort of be invited to stuff, or, um yeah, um, I think it must. It's It's very difficult to find people in Dunedin until you've got a sort of until you've sort of know enough people that you've got a critical mess that people can introduce you to people. Um, there are There are groups here. There is Um, of course, of which I have been to a few times, and occasionally [00:17:30] I've met friends there, but, um, it's never really been a an environment. I felt particularly comfortable and, uh, particularly attracted to, um I don't drink so and, uh, I can I find it difficult to hear people in loud bars and stuff and there's nothing wrong with me hearing, but I always find it difficult to, uh, hear sounds when loud music is going on, like separate out sounds to speak. So I find it's kind of like, you know, what I want to do when I meet people is have a have a talk with them. [00:18:00] Um, and I can't really do that in a sort of loud dance party, and I just tended to find it a bit crass and a bit that course and and not really that kind of my kind of scene. My lectures there are lovely people and organising those groups. And, um, there's there's another group here, space of which we've got quite a few friends that are involved in, but, um, yeah, they all tend to have their niches, and I think unless if you're outside those niches, It could be quite difficult to, [00:18:30] um, certainly I know a lot of Trans people in Dunedin. They sort of turned up and haven't been able to find, Um, I've definitely not been accepted by the communities here. And, um, I have had problems being able to find any of the Trans people. The Trans group I'm part of South Trans has only been around for about a year and a half, and I think the one for that died quite a long time ago. So for a long time, there wasn't really anything at all. So you say there's quite a lot of trans phobia [00:19:00] from the queer community in um, it really depends on which bit, which who I mean, there's no there's, there's not. I don't think there's ever really been There's not a great community in and there's like 12 14, all kind of on top of each other, depending on the age and what you do and whatever. Um, and some of them are definitely a lot more open than others. Um, but yeah, definitely. There's a lot of transphobia towards, particularly [00:19:30] like trans women, I think definitely much more than Trans men. I think most of the opinion most people have towards trans men is what they exist. This is that weird kind of reaction from, like, head dudes Of Of course, everyone wants to be a man, which is is is is also yeah, odd. What's it like for 20 people in Dunedin to do things like access health care? Is that quite hard? Um, student health is absolutely magnificent [00:20:00] here. Um, um, yeah, they operate on the, um, informed consent model, which I think is one of the few places in New Zealand that does, which is absolutely amazing. So they're basically like, as long as you know, you seem sane and you understand what you're doing, and you've made that decision knowing the consequences. Then you don't have to prove that you have gender identity disorder disorder or anything like that, which is cool. Um, and yeah, I've had a few friends [00:20:30] that I've passed through the same system, and they've all had a very positive response. I think I've heard that, um, the reason why student health is so good is due to one particular trans guy a few years ago, Um, who went in and, um, basically gave lectures and talked with everyone until it became like that. And so I think the fact that that is good is is probably due to mainly this 11 person, which is is, thank you very much for making it a lot easier for the rest of us. [00:21:00] Um, but I think I think, Yeah, but that definitely There's a lot of variation. Certainly. Um, I think a lot of people I've heard a lot of other stories from people who've gone to different psyches and different doctors and have different endos and stuff that have had, I think, a good amount of a harder time of it. And I've heard some pretty bad stories that I've I've been pretty lucky. Hm. Um, what do you think about how, um, queer and Trans people represented [00:21:30] in the media? And if we think about media is kind of all sorts, like news movies to E, I guess which I guess if we start with, like, the most conservative media, if we're talking about TV and newspapers and stuff, um um, representation of queer stuff is is is is ok. I mean, there's definitely people there now, which is fabulous. Um, I don't know if they they they probably definitely don't have the sort of breadth of personality Um, [00:22:00] that you you desire probably match the way the same. Even Just women in, um, TV and media probably don't sort of show the breadth of character. Um, it's probably about the same sort of they're there. But maybe, you know, they tend to play yeah, stereotypes or side rolls. Or, um, but obviously it depends where you're looking. Um, a lot of the sort of made for TV [00:22:30] stuff that is now available on the Internet has a lot, um, bigger range of different types of people. Um, but it and that's just in the last few years. That's become a lot better in terms of books. You know, there are very, very many amazing good books out there. Um, I guess the problem is always getting a hold of them, which, in the age, if you have, uh, if you have a debit card and Internet access is actually pretty easy. But if [00:23:00] you were a young person, didn't have access to one or both or uh, could could be quite difficult, because the books are out there, but they're certainly not being sold in Whit or whatever. Uh, the Internet is, um, has a lot of good stuff and a lot of terrible stuff. I mean, it really depends on there's definitely bits of the internet you wouldn't want to stray on to, or, um yeah, and just as you just sort of hope that the people looking for information look [00:23:30] at sort of sensible places and don't just sort of stray on to the depths of Yahoo answers or or or or or dig it, um, looking, looking for that information and just get horribly horribly. But yeah, I I it's it's OK. I think I hope this the next generation coming up is pretty Internet literate, so they won't. Hopefully, they don't fall down too many of the holes. Um, what do you think are some of the most important issues facing queer and trans people in New Zealand at the moment? [00:24:00] Um, so I would say that one of the biggest is is abuse in schools, high schools. That can be really, really, really terrible places for queer and trans people. Um, and we're not just talking about, you know, um, you know, they may maybe the off comment We're talking about, like, physical abuse and, like, widespread all the time, sort of emotional abuse and stuff it can be can be pretty bad. Um, think that's something that really needs to change. And we don't [00:24:30] have any sort of youth queer support thing going on here. Um, says it exists. It doesn't exist. It hasn't existed for about the last 78 years here, down here. And, um yeah, so, um, but on the other end of the scale, old people, um, I think quite a lot of resources and stuff that's getting better is is for people our age. Young adults, right. We've got the energy and the time to going out and doing stuff and looking out for each other. [00:25:00] Um, but I think it is very difficult to be trans and 80 especially. You know, if you don't have the family connections that you also don't have the strength to sort of necessarily be independent and look after yourself. You can't exactly say fuck you society. If you have to rely on you know all these people to be looked after. Um, I've I've had some friends that were much older, you know, some sort of worrying about now what happens when I go [00:25:30] into a like an, uh, an elderly home or something like that? And if if your friends that starts to be a problem and again, I think it's not one that anyone is really sort of dealing with yet, Um, people tend to sort of look out for people that around them. And there is a bit of a gap between people tend to hang out with people their own age and maybe a bit above and a bit below. So those older people that yeah, [00:26:00] I think it's probably there needs to be a lot of stuff like that because there's probably a lot. There's a lot fewer groups and there's a lot less connections and stuff. And maybe with the younger people, where do you think things will be in the in the future? Say, like, 10 years? Um, I don't know. Um, I would hope I Yeah, in a lot of ways, I like to think it's getting better. Um, certainly like looking like my I've got. My sister goes to the same high school as as me and I went to when I was a kid. [00:26:30] Um and yeah, it suddenly seems to be a lot better with regard to queer issues. And it definitely was when me and my my little brother went. Um, but then, of course, um, yeah, it's it's hard to tell just from her because she she's straight. And, um, you sort of pretty normal. And so she maybe things are happening and she's not noticing them, but she's pretty onto it. So I imagine that yeah, she's [00:27:00] definitely had a much better experience than me or my little brother did. Um, maybe just to finish up what, um, what's your favourite thing about being a queer Trans guy in New Zealand in the South Island? Um, Dunedin is just an absolutely wonderful city. Um, if I'm you know, if I'm bored, I can just sort of wander around for five minutes until and I'll bump into someone that I know who wants to do something cool. And you can just go and do it. Um, just yet, [00:27:30] I think the way just let out is built very much for community, which I think it, uh I don't know. It's just a bit weird. Like Dune can be. I think Dunedin is a very lonely city. When you first move to it, I found a lot of people say this, But I think once you're established, it's a very friendly city. Um, you can easily know a lot of people and people do look out for each other as long as they know you, which takes a while. As you can see, this is always a problem with kind of small rural towns, of which Dunedin [00:28:00] is kind of a giant version of in some ways.
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