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I probably realised that I was gay before the age of 10. Um, never had the chance to order opportunity to explore it, Got married, had kids. And probably a few years into into marriage, when figure didn't work, I started exploring the gay side. Um, marriage ended. My ex-wife has not known about me and never will know. Um, [00:00:30] but my kids do, um, my youngest daughters in the lesbian relationship and quite open about it. Um, the first couple of experiences I had were at a beach, if you want to tell it that way, my knees were knocking. I was shaking. I was sweating. Um, I realised it was wrong, but I loved it. Um, [00:01:00] I got more warmth and affection, and I realised that there's some things that I liked. I've always liked looking at guys rather than women. All my life over I was married. Um, it's much easier now because, um I can do whatever I want and whatever I feel. And, um, life [00:01:30] is so much better because I get warmth, affection, compassion from a person which I can't get from anyone else from a guy that I can't get. Can I get from anyone else. Um, the tendencies are all there. You can't suppress them. Um, you'd walk down the street and you'd automatically look at guys. Um, you'd go to the movies and you'd sort of sit there and dream. Um, [00:02:00] the feelings are there, and they are very, very strong. Um, and you can't do anything about them. I mean, people think that they can overcome it, but you can't. It is just personal feelings and personal perceptions. It's like someone likes one type of car and someone likes another type of car. And some person just we say I don't like either of them. Um, it's just personal feelings and emotions. [00:02:30] Um, I used to go out by myself, and I ended up in a situation once when I went with a guy never looked back. Never, ever look back. I was probably married about 10 years at the time. There are a couple of people that I know who have just completely wiped me and just don't [00:03:00] don't speak to me. Don't have any contact with me. And other people that are straight in the straight world have just accepted me the way I am. Um, circle of friends has changed in the last few years. Um, real friends, which I can classify as real friends, have stayed, and [00:03:30] there are probably very, very few Probably less than five. Um, because your real friends will accept you no matter what you are. And no matter how you are, and that's what I found with my real friends, the rest of them are just, you know, people that pass by the coming out process. I basically tell the people that I feel I can trust and don't [00:04:00] tell the people that won't understand. I realised when I was quite young that I was different. Um, I had going back to my early childhood. Actually. I had, um, experiences and wanted to experiment with feelings that I didn't really understand from from quite a young age. And I had, um I think even before puberty I, I may have this wrong. I don't know. Um, it's a long time ago. I'm I'm [00:04:30] a guy who's 48 now. So, um, you know, we gotta go back a long way here, but I always thought I was different. And as I got older, um, I became aware of of what the difference was the fact that I was gay, that I found boys or men, mostly men, almost always men. Um, I'm not really into the boys or the young guys sort of thing, um, physically and sexually attractive. Um, I grew up in a small town, New Zealand, where that sort of thing was, [00:05:00] um, was not acceptable. Or you tried to fit in, which is basically what I tried to do. Um, at 25 I got married, which was the brightest thing I ever did. Someone who turned out to be a wonderful woman. But, um, things were never quite right. Um, I guess when you live in small town New Zealand, and this was before homosexual law reform, you feel that you have to fit in. And I guess I thought, um, stupidly that by getting married, I would cure whatever [00:05:30] problem it was that helped me. Or I would be able to live a life that people found acceptable, and I'd fit in. Um, this went on. So 10 or 12 years, and I was I mean, sex was purgatory. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. Um, you know, they talk about people being gay over a spectrum. I mean this purely heterosexual. And they move through a spectrum from from that through to slightly bisexual, across to bisexual, across to fully gay. And I guess I come [00:06:00] in at the gay end of the spectrum. Um, I love men. I love sex with men. So, um, I found it extremely hard. And then it got to a point where I couldn't deny basically what I was feeling. So I started to have sex with me, Um, which, um, I went at it like a demented. I guess so. Yeah. I was in my mid thirties at this stage. Um, and I needed that physical satisfaction, [00:06:30] I guess that you get when you're going and you have sex with me. And so I had all this sort of playing around with guys and doing the dogs and all that sort of thing, things that at the time seemed totally acceptable. Which now, um, I find rather repugnant. Um, things I did that I'm not proud of. Um, a lot of other people would say, Well, hey, that's fine. That's part of exploring your sexuality and being finding the satisfaction, the sexual satisfaction and the physical [00:07:00] satisfaction that you need to keep going through life. To me, it's rather sad. But anyway, that's the situation I found myself in. And then the feelings that I had or the suffocation, I guess that I was feeling being constrained in a marriage that I didn't want. Um, not being really courageous enough to pull my way out of it, um, it just got worse and worse. And I started to suffer physical manifestations where my health started to fail. And then something [00:07:30] happened where I my wife was involved with something that with a friend of hers, and they were going to be spending the day doing something, And I lived in Hamilton at the time and she said to me, Oh, why don't you go away for the day? Just do something different. So I thought, I want to come to Auckland. So I came to Auckland and I got here early in the morning and I thought, Well, what am I gonna do? I don't know anybody here, So I did something that I never, ever thought I'd do. But I, um, picked up a truth newspaper and I phoned a hooker. [00:08:00] I had sex with this guy. It turned out to be really, really good. Um, the first time I think I'd had really satisfying sex, and we started to see each other, and he was an educated guy. Um, he had a degree in business management and all that sort of thing, and he was sort of working as an escort, I guess, to supplement his meagre income to put himself through university. And what have you. So, um, we used to talk a lot, and he got me to read a book called The Road Less Travelled, [00:08:30] which I did, Um, it made me realise a lot of things. And then we talked about how the life that I was living was affecting me, which was fine. I. I knew how it was affecting me. Um, and I came to the realisation that I was cheating myself. And then he turned around to me one day and he said to me, You know, you you realise you're cheating your wife as well. And I said, Well, what do you mean? I said, I've taken at this at this point. I've been married 17 years, and I said, Well, look, I've taken 15 years of a life away from her, He said. I she [00:09:00] deserves to be. I deserves for me to stay with her and see it through. And he said no. He said, You've cheated her for 17 years. He said, Doesn't she deserve to be happy in her own right? To be loved as a woman should be loved. And when I heard that and thought about that, then I realised exactly what I had to do. So, um, I went and saw my wife sat down one day and we had a chat. Well, it was basically a chat. It was very, um, civil. Um, she'd come to realise that [00:09:30] perhaps I might be gay. Um, the sexual side of our marriage have practically died. Um, we had no Children. Um, I guess that was a decision I made early on that I didn't want Children because I knew. I think deep down, it was gonna come a time when, um, I was going to have to be honest about who I was and what I was. And also, I think, um, if I had Children, I felt there would be a stigma [00:10:00] attached to them for what I had done or for the type of person that I was. I realise now, now that that's probably not true. Um, Children are very accepting, and I find in the circles within which I mix where I work, um, and socialise. And what have you that, um, my homosexuality is not is just not an issue. Um, I'm accepted totally. For who I am. I can talk openly about the life that I live. Um, the things that I do, [00:10:30] um, that sort of thing. So, you know, it's really, really cool. But once we had decided to separate and that the physical manifestations of things that were going on, the health problems and that everything ceased. So, um yeah, it came to a point in my life where I was sort of at peace. OK, well, I first knew I was gay when I was about seven. Um, always got on well with the girls, but I always liked the look of the guys thinking I just wanted to be like them, [00:11:00] but it was a bit more than that. Um, I basically didn't actually come out till I was 24. I broke up with my fiance, um, started drinking heavily, started getting into the drugs to cope with it all. Um, but, uh, once I sort of realised what was happening and went to Sydney, which is supposed to be the second biggest gay capital in the world, that seemed to help a little bit, Um, [00:11:30] and once I came out to my family and all that kind of thing, it's such a big relief to me. Um, they didn't deal with it very well. Mum still doesn't deal with it very well. She's known for four years now. Um, I was absolutely petrified about coming out. Um, but a lot of my friends that I was hanging around with were gay, and they were all coming out around me, and I saw how much of a relief it was for them. [00:12:00] So I thought, Well, I might as well do it myself. So I came out at work. I was in the Royal Australian Navy, and that was a big step for me. It was only just, um, legal. Um, So that was one of the reasons I hadn't come out earlier as well. Um, I come out to all my work colleagues and all that kind of thing. And they were really They were really good about it. Um, coming out to my mother at first, that was a bit of a [00:12:30] nightmare. It was over the phone of one thing I wished I'd never done. But, um, she questioned me about it on the phone, and I just said yes. She went silent. Um said she'd get back to me later. She rang me a couple of hours later and told me not to tell her father, so I didn't end up telling about it. I still haven't actually told my father for because of her wish. Um, which is, I think, just as which is harder for her because she hasn't got anyone to talk to, except [00:13:00] for my sister. But, um, she's now moved out of home and all that kind of thing. Um, we still have a close relationship, but not as close as I would like it to be, because I can't tell her everything. I think I quite liked other boys when I was in third class at school. What's that? Seven or eight. Which is a bit young, I suppose. But probably no younger than anybody else. [00:13:30] I didn't do anything about it until I was about 21. Um, in about when I was about 16, I went through that denial period. I'll grow out of it. You read about people being gay, Um, and some sort of adolescent thing. And then suddenly the world of girls opens up, and it's all very exciting. It never happened. The 21 I met a guy that I used to know when I was at school, quite by accident, [00:14:00] and, er I could sense that he was gay and one thing led to another. And then I did nothing for about another year after that. So I was terribly closeted being brought up Catholic. It doesn't help because you go through that guilt trip. Um, anybody who's not perfect in any way is made to feel guilty. And by perfect, it's [00:14:30] It's the the Catholic version of of Perfect. Um, coming out was a different matter. Um, I was out to my friends. I'm still not out at work. I don't see any relevance of being out at work. I just see that as something which is none of their business. Uh, I had quite a number of gay friends I was living in, uh, in Canberra at the time, and, uh, the only people I wasn't out with [00:15:00] were my parents and my sister. And then one day, out of the blue, my mother rang me. She was going through a fairly rough patch emotionally, and she'd been seeing a psychiatrist. Uh, I think she had bipolar disease. It was really bizarre. She was very difficult to deal with sometimes. And, uh, she was naming me for a lot of things that were wrong with herself. [00:15:30] And maybe I was contributing to that. I don't know. And she asked me whether I was gay, and I said yes. And, uh, she just dropped the bundle completely. She didn't want to speak to me again. Ever. Um, and she didn't. Oh, there was once or twice that I tried to make contact with. So I decided to put in a letter and sent her a letter saying, There's nothing much we can do about this. This is how it is. You're not gonna change me. [00:16:00] I have no intention of going to any sort of therapy or or whatever. And if I go if I went to a psychologist or a psychiatrist, they'd probably say, What the hell are you doing here? So she didn't really accept that and didn't talk to me until she died the day she died. My father, on the other hand, was quite understanding. I still see him, and, uh, we visit occasionally. He lives in Sydney. I live in Melbourne. My sister rang me after my mother rang her straight away [00:16:30] and said it didn't change anything. She still loved me as a brother, and, uh, we keep in contact constantly. We ring about every two weeks, and her husband is fine. Um, I don't talk to any of the other family because I don't know. I feel uncomfortable about it. Um, they're very catholic, and I think we see it as some sort of, uh, failure on my part. Maybe I do too. [00:17:00] Well, I knew when, like when I was about eight or nine. When? When? In the changing sheds with the boys. You didn't wanna look at girls? I wasn't even interested in looking at girls. I got on really well with girls. And that's why I always thought that I was gonna get married and everything else but I've never sex sexually attracted to two women as long as I can remember, I was I was engaged to be married for a while for about 2.5 years to A to A to a woman. And then I broke it off after I thought, Well, this is not gonna work. [00:17:30] And then, um, it was about six months ago that I decided to, you know, I'll just take the the the leap and do it and come out and come back to friends. And I'll come out in Wellington when I move to Wellington because I come from a little country town down south and yeah, it was a funny, funny reaction. So I got most people were pretty alright with it because of where I worked. And most people there are pretty easy going, but, um, yeah, it was easy. When I came out, I felt relieved. But now that I've come to Sydney, City is a lot harder [00:18:00] and a lot of people are a lot more. I don't know, a lot more ignorant. And even though it's a more open place and yeah, I find it a lot, a lot harder now to deal with than I did before. And yeah, it's about it now. I'm just trying to cope with it and trying to get along with it and doing the best I can. I came back to my parents about a month ago in Sydney. They were back in New Zealand down south and I rang them up and we were just [00:18:30] talking and they asked me because I they I wasn't talking about girls. So they asked me if I if I was gay and I got sick of lying to them and I said yes, and they were very, very upset and like my mother didn't talk, she just stood silent at the end of the phone, and then she wouldn't talk to me and she just hung up. And then later on, I rang her about probably 33 weeks after that, about a week ago, and she won't really talk to me much anymore. So my family are very taken it very hard because of my family background [00:19:00] and where we lived very, very conservative town that we lived in. So that was that was the coming out to the parents, which was it's a bit hard, but I expected it. I expected I. I actually expected a lot worse when I came out to them, but, um, yeah, now I'm I'm dealing with a little easier. They I said they've got their own opinions. They can They can think what they like. I said, I my life. Now I just carry on and gotta get over that, And but, yeah, it still hurts, but [00:19:30] there's not much I can do about it. I'll just keep on plodding along and hopefully they come round one day. Uh, how did I feel when I know I'm attractive guy? I probably, um I think I think I knew it from since I was very, very young, Probably like teenagers. I knew it already, but, um, everybody has different background, family and society, especially if you're from why countries supposed to be easier [00:20:00] and and it's usually very, very, very difficult, especially in in Asian cultures. And so most of the people, I think you probably know it and then you just suppress it and you just don't don't do anything with it. Some people even get married, which is very popular in in, you know, wherever you come from, um, for myself, I think I I knew it since I was I was a I was a kid. Um, I didn't [00:20:30] do anything with it. Uh, I was still, like, do whatever, um, society or my family or other people or my classmates and what they do, you know, get a girlfriend and, you know, hang around with them. So I actually got a girlfriend, and, um, we've been, um, sort of seeing each other for quite a long time. And, uh, most of the time I'm with her. We actually talk about getting married. That was when I was in my twenties, [00:21:00] early twenties, and we actually got engaged just because I think it's the right thing to do and and also both of us, our family side are, you know, willing to see that happen. And I kind of go go along with it. But I, I knew the whole time, I I wasn't happy, and it's not really me. Um, so I kind of cancelled the [00:21:30] marriage, and but I had to get away from it from my family and order with the people because I feel like it wasn't right and and I had to find an excuse for, for for both of the family, Um, did have everything ready for me. So I then I, I started to think about, um, going abroad to study that, um, so I decided to go to Canada. Actually, that was the main reason why I did. That is, [00:22:00] um, to get away from my family and and, you know, to find myself. And that was perfect excuse for everybody. So I said I just wasn't ready. I'm too young. I'm not really ready for for everything yet. Then I went to, um, went to Canada to study. And that was the time I really exposed to myself to the to the gay culture. And that was the first time in a in a Western country. And I was free and, you know, [00:22:30] willing to explore. And finally, then I start going to gay bars and and and then just getting to know, know more people. And then I realised, being gay, it attracts men. It's not a mistake, or it's not something wrong. You know, I I'm not the only one. There are a lot of people like they are very confident about themselves being gay. so I So I gain more and more confidence and then realise it is like, you know, I don't have to hide it. So I guess I sort of realised I was gay right from [00:23:00] when I was very young. Um, sort of When I, you know, I looked at a man or a, you know, attracted to him and or looked at a female. And so it wasn't, I guess, And But I guess when I was young probably didn't sort of realise what it all meant to all that. And I actually didn't come out till about two years ago, and I'm 25 now. Um, I guess it took me a while to sort of accept [00:23:30] and come to terms with the fact that I was gay. Um, I'm sort of glad that I am. Now I find that I'm a lot happier, sort of went through a bit of depression and that, and then when I sort of sort of finally came out and that sort of told everyone that I was gay, um, I felt like sort of a bit of weight lifted off me, and I was a lot happier. Um, pretty much my everyone took it fairly well, like my mum already [00:24:00] sort of pretty much knew that I was gay. Um, as did sort of some friends that I worked with, I guess sort of having close contact with me and that I sort of picked up on a sign that I was gay. Even before I sort of said that I was, Um my dad was about the only one that didn't take it very well. It sort of, um, thought that it was a waste and sort of thought that I'd chosen [00:24:30] to come and go. Um, and I couldn't believe that you were born gay, so, um, but he doesn't sort of understand that, so we just I don't talk to him about it at all. He didn't at first. Didn't want to see me at all. Um, but now he seems to have gotten over that One of my friends actually told him up and I think told him off and that I was his only son. And the blah, blah, blah, you know, I should get over it and all of that. [00:25:00] So he does whether influence him at all. I don't know, but he seems to be right about it, but we don't sort of really talk about it. Makes a few crap comments about living a queer lifestyle, and the rest of it just tend to ignore it. Um, everyone else except me for the way I am, because I guess I'm not a different person to who I was before I came out. So I shouldn't be treated any [00:25:30] different. I think you generally get to a stage where you realise. OK, Yeah, I do know I am. And I am accepting that I am. Whereas I went through a stage of denying it for a long time where I thought it's just a phase. I'm not really gay. Um, I suppose as you get older, you you mature and you realise and I. I guess I was a really early age at 14, and I came out to them because I'm by that stage. I had known God for ages for many, many [00:26:00] years, and I just had to tell someone. So I told my best friend and she was kind of like, shocked. She was like, Wow, she didn't know what to do, so we can never spoke about it. And then 23 months later that, like, all built up again. And I was at the stage where I just had to tell someone. So one day Mum was in the shower and I wrote her a note and I said, Hey, Mum, I'm gay and I put it in a slipper. So when she got out of the shower, she put her shoe on, found this note and read it. And from there, um, she kind [00:26:30] of walked into my room and goes, Ah, I've read this note and I'm like, Oh, my God! And we talked and then we cried and talked and cried and talked and cried for hours and hours. But I found that was a really, really good move. And, um, just having someone there that knows for support was excellent. And so, yeah, that was my, like, my original coming up process. And by that stage, I'd logically known that I was, um at school. Though a few months later I had got to a stage where I built up all again and, um, everything [00:27:00] at school is just kind of getting really, really annoying. And I just kind of like broke down in class one day, And, um, from there everyone kind of asked, you know what happened? Why? And so I told everyone. And, um, that's kind of the worst mistake I ever made. And I actually regret coming up at school. Um, like what? Eventually, the, um my counsellor told me I should tell Dad, and I'm like, No. And, um, Mum had just told him behind my back one day, and dad stopped speaking to me for six months, which was kind of hard, but, um, I guess he just needed his time [00:27:30] to get over it because he's a real macho man. He was in the 1st 15, he lost his two front tooth in a fight. He drinks beer and whatnot. Um, but at school, I went to an all boys kind of upper class school, but it's not really too upper class, but, um, just the attitude was there. You had to be macho to rate. Um, you had to play first, you play rugby, and if you weren't, you were different, and you're hassled and people I've never met before would walk up to me in a quad and go Oh, you and, um, it [00:28:00] got to the stage where it was too much and I had heaps of friends living, going to a school near me where my other friends lived. So I changed schools to a coed school, and that's the best move I ever made. I get very little hassle there. I find there's just such a different atmosphere. It's excellent that the fact you've got girls yeah, and there's There's not so much this Mao egotistic thing where, like, you have to be something and, like everyone, just accept you for you. And it's also a very multiracial school. So I mean that I suppose that's another point. That means everyone is different and [00:28:30] they just accept you for what you are. Um, after that, I mean, the introduced me to a lot of gay people. I suppose that also helps me. Um, I had a good friend like that was always there for me when I was coming out and just offered me advice. And I always ask the questions and I mean, I suppose that was really good again having that support someone you can talk to and they can help you through the process of coming out, and then I'm I suppose it's just like a chain. And then he introduces you to more people and more people. And eventually you just get to know a whole lot of people. And you create [00:29:00] a whole group of friends outside, like the abstract that are gay and their support. And you realise you aren't the only one and that you're normal and that there's other people like you genuine, like you. And it's just like, um wow, so yeah, um, but again, school. I mean, coming out of school is like a thing. I regret it. Kind of like I don't know it like, do you or don't you? I guess it's a choice most people have to make themselves, but I don't recommend it at the moment because school is just [00:29:30] ready for it. I mean, teachers didn't know what to do. They they just ignored the harassment. Um, they just ignored the harassment. And, um, I had meetings with teachers and everything, and nothing really happened. Teachers just try to choose not to listen to it, I suppose, and it just got such a hassle. And I'm still like, I know I do get the harassment. It's not as much, but ideally, I suppose it's just better telling a few good friends. And that's all you need to tell. And [00:30:00] you just leave it at that and that you've just got the support there, which is the main thing for you. Um, other than that, like just with parents and that it's just, you know, you just be, you know, when the time is right, it gets to a stage where everything builds up and, you know, the time is right to tell someone, and you just it's just something I don't know how to explain it, But I just was like, Well, I need to tell someone and I did. And I suppose it happens at different times for everyone, because a lot of my friends now are come out at 16, 17, 18 and [00:30:30] you know, they say I came up really early, but it's just something you know, that what has to be done. And I guess you just everyone does it at their own pace. And I just guess I grew up early. I think that some people are born gay. You are not, You know you don't learn to be gay because when I was really young. When I see some handsome guys, I would like get an inaction. But I didn't realise that. You know, I have, like, feeling for guys. Until when I was my first [00:31:00] year in high school, like I only 15. So that's when I started to accept myself as someone who is feeling for guys and not for girls. Um, I'm in the closet, you know, I don't go out, and none of my friends know that I'm gay. So I have to go to the Internet to meet someone you know, and chat room and stuff. And I also go to some porn site, and that really excites me. And I compare [00:31:30] the, um, gay porn and straight porn. And that's when I realised that what I really want, uh, what my sexual preference is. So, um, that's why And then when I met the first guy on the Internet, we had coffee, and then we talk and we had really had fun. So So that's how I realised that that's what I really want. And I won't be happy being with girls. Um, because of my age, [00:32:00] I'm only 19. I'm still in college and my parents. They I don't think I think they will accept me as a homosexual eventually, but not easily so. And they're still supporting me financially. So, um, I'm waiting till I graduate from college and get a job and settle down to tell everyone you know. So I think that's gonna be a big thing, [00:32:30] but I am gonna tell them eventually because my mother is always expecting me to marry someone and have kids and stuff, so I think that's gonna be a big disappointment for her. But I have to tell her because I won't be happy if you know if I do what she wants me to do. So I think I first realised I was gay. Um, probably when when I was in my sort of late, single figure years, I would guess, probably 89 and into 10, I realised that the feelings that I had for [00:33:00] for for love and romance and and my first sort of sexual awakening were not for people of the opposite sex. They were for people of the same sex. And, um, thanks for having a fantastic family upbringing. Uh, from what some people would call a broken home My parents were separated when I was very young. I was very close to my mother and her new male partner, and I didn't have any problems with that in myself at all. That's not to say that I came out to my my parents at that age. I didn't actually come out to my mum [00:33:30] till I was 18, 19 years old, which is what, um, 10 years later. But just knowing that the the support was there. And I think in reality your parents always really know whether their child or you know son or daughter is gay or not, I think that it's a it's It's a lie to say I didn't My mum never knew or my dad never knew because I think deep down they do. It's the same as the the husband who's having an affair, or the or the wife who's messing around in a lunch break with a Diet Coke break. They you just know you know something's wrong. But when it came to coming [00:34:00] out to my mother, which was kind of enforced on me at the time, because it was I was in my first, uh, gay relationship at 18 19 years old, and I lived in London, which is the capital of England, and my my mum and her partner lived in Cornwall, which is a region, uh, some sort of 250 miles away, very rugged and windswept. Um, it was a It was a long way to go, and it was a long journey to take being forced into it by a boyfriend who was determined that I should come out to my parents and family before he could truly love me. [00:34:30] And when it's your first same sex relationship, it's the You don't know what the rules are because the whole of your upbringing is based around, uh, the heterosexual ideals and stereotypes of what the good relationships are and how they work. So when you're suddenly thrown into something that you really want very much, you don't know the rules and how how the game is played. So I accepted that as the norm and travelled down to Cornwall to do the do the deeds and to come out and be honest with my my family. And it was over Christmas, and I remember the precise moment vividly we were watching JFK, the Oliver Stone movie [00:35:00] on television. And ever since I was a very young kid, I think it was to do with the separation of my my mum and dad. Er late at night, I would join my mother on her bed, not in her bed, under the covers. She would be under the covers, and I would just sit on the side of the bed and we watch telly together for a little while and have a chat. And then I'd go to bed and you know, we'd all go to sleep. And I just remember sitting there. And I think there's a moment when er, Kevin Costner and sis space have a row er, because the family's falling apart in the movie. And I just said, Ohh, God, I'd love to have kids And my I remember my mum saying, But you will have kids, [00:35:30] won't you? And I said, Well, I don't know. And it was that sort of. Then you get that fundamental moment where you don't quite know what to say. And there's a pause that fills er build a gap as as long as a lifetime. But in reality it's probably a nanosecond, and my Mum just said, Is there something you want to tell me? And I said, and it was vivid, as opposed to the first person I said in the third person your son is gay, to which she said, Fantastic news. That's fantastic news. I'm so glad you've told me. As long as you're as happy as you can be and you're as safe as you can be, it really [00:36:00] doesn't matter. And that was it. There was no throwing plant pots across the wall and soil falling everywhere. There was no red wine grasses being smashed. There was no Your father never wants to speak to you again. It was that simple. And the feeling of coming out and and having that final boundary of honesty confirmed and brought brought together was more uplifting than I think anything I've ever done since. Or anyone ever told since, because when you're truly honest with the people that love you, it's when you can truly be honest with yourself. The first recollection [00:36:30] that I have of of being attracted to men, which probably sounds a bit considering that I know plenty of stra identifying men now who've had, like mutual masturbation experiences with other men, and that's all it was. But for me, it always stuck in my head. It's been more significant than that. But when I was eight and I had been put in for six months at a a hospital, it was called the Xavier Home for Crippled Children, which sounds more imposing [00:37:00] than it really was. But I was being treated for asthma. But some of the other Children there were kids with real problems like thalidomide, babies and such. But the asthmatics tended to be a bit privileged, and you're a bit more mobile than the other kids you didn't have a wheelchair to worry about. For example, I remember, um, one of the other Hispanic kids, John and I, and we had an arrangement where, um, she used the roof at night. [00:37:30] One would get up because we had a dormitory that was quite secure, like the nurses would only sort of tuck them into bed and then you'd see them in the morning. But get up, go to the loo. And if you wanted the other boy to come in, he'd cough, which I've since found out, is not far off. What happens in bee culture, but and we just feel each other's dicks and balls, and I just remember it feeling really special and [00:38:00] very enjoyable. That happened several times when I was in the Xavier home, and I don't think I had, like, physical contact again then with another man until I was probably like, 16, 17. Basically, it's been something that I've always sort of felt, you know, Um, I never felt like I was anything different. You know, I've always been interested in boys, you know, from [00:38:30] a very young age. Um, I used to collect pictures out of magazines, and I like the teen magazines like Smash Hits and all that sort of thing. I used to collect the boy pictures and stick them in a diary and hide it from my mum. I used to stick it in this little G and put it in. Um, put it on my bed. Believe it or not a place to put it. My mum might have found it at some stage. Um, yes, and I sort of started dancing and doing entertainment type stuff, singing and acting when I was, like, nine, and that [00:39:00] brought me out of my shell. A little more. Um, and it was actually I had a performance one night. Um, and I had to wear this really bizarre chequered costume and there was some guys in the audience that were giving me hassles. They were calling out stuff and, um, from the audience and stuff like that. And then it was actually in the car on the way home where my mother actually said to me, She said, You gotta be careful, You know, you can get yourself into trouble and Ra Ra Ra ra. And it was at this point, um, I think I was, like, 15 [00:39:30] and ah, I was sitting there and I was like, gripping the handle of the car. And I'm just like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. My was in my throat. My heart was turning 500 times to the minute to the minute, and I just sort of it sort of came out with it. I just it felt right. So and I was nervous as hell. So I just did it. And I said, Mom, I'm gay. And her first response was Are you sure? And I said, I said yes and probably one [00:40:00] of the most empowered comments I've ever had in my entire life. And from there, Yeah, Mom and I That was, like, about 10 o'clock at night. I think Mum and I stayed up till four o'clock in the morning. Just talking. God knows what we talked about, but we sort of we set up chatting all night. You know, I sort of That was the first time I really poured my heart out to my mum about how I was feeling. Basically, Um, yeah, And after that, I sort of [00:40:30] sort of dealt with the rest of my family. I suppose, Um, I didn't wanna tell my dad to start with My dad and I have never really had a fantastic relationship. Um, I was always a mummy's boy, which sounds a bit a bit, Um well, not not too bad. Um, yeah. I've never heard they had a good relationship with my dad. Um, my brother was a very sports oriented person, so And as is my dad, So they had [00:41:00] the sort of father son thing that was going on, and I'm just like, Yeah, OK, they can have that. And I was a little mummy's boy, which made me the the good cook that I am, I must say, she taught me everything she knows. Um, yeah. So I didn't wanna tell Dad at first. And then Mum being mom, she, um, likes to talk her problems out and, you know, and how she's feeling and and chat. So she ended up telling my dad and my dad was quite shocked. And then Mum proceeded to tell the rest of the [00:41:30] family, my grandparents and all that sort of stuff, and she would just tell me that she told them and I'd be like, Oh, thanks for that. Hm. Great. So, I, I really I had I only had to go through it once, um, when I was 15, so that was good. And I've had the support of my family the whole way. I've had not one negative response from, um from my mom. My dad. My dad didn't understand it at first. Um, and it [00:42:00] took him a couple of years to actually connect with me on the subject. I think we were actually watching a a programme on television one day, and some they had some gay issue on it and I got up to leave the room because I really wanted to watch it and go into my bedroom and watch into my room. And he said he actually said to me No stay. We'll watch it And I sort of looked at my mum and I think I started crying and I was like, Oh, my God! So that was sort of the first time for Dad anyway, [00:42:30] and that would have been about three years down the track. But anyway, back to my, um, back to my family, I said, No negative response from either set of grandparents or aunties or uncles or cousins or anything. Um, when I told my brother, Now this is a very funny story. I told my brother and he didn't believe me. He's like he was such a bullshit artist. And I'm going go and ask Mum, that was my my first sort of response was Go and ask Mum. And then I put out the outrage magazines and I said, Have a look at these. Why would I have these? And he didn't believe me to at at [00:43:00] the start. So as for me, um, I realised, quite soon, uh, I was different from all the guys. Um, in fact, uh, as I was six years old, I noticed that it was the only guy in my school to have just girlfriends. I had no boyfriends. Um, so I I noticed it, and I couldn't say what was [00:43:30] different was me. But, er it does so So I accepted it. And, uh, several years later, when I was a teenager, uh, it became more obvious that something was different than me. Um, my friends, if I may use the words friends, because, uh, I had no real friend at that at that time. I was OK with the other people, but, um [00:44:00] uh, people used to choose me as a friend, but I didn't choose people as friends, and that's quite different for me. So, uh, the people who were which were living with me, um, always speak about girls, and, um, they try to give them notes or things like that Say that girl seems quite wonderful. Er, she's, uh uh, quite nice. I would give her a wonderful note, A or B [00:44:30] or something like that. Uh, and as for me, I would have, uh, give notes to guys to boys, so that was quite difficult at that time, as I used to live at that time in the countryside in France. Um, you know, and it was in the seventies and the seventies, and that time in France, it was, um, quite difficult to speak about homosexuality. In fact, um, [00:45:00] people didn't really speak about it, and they knew it existed. But, um, the images that you had in films or books about homosexuality was quite awful. Um, the people who were supposed to be homosexual were always represented as almost female guys. So when you you were not such a a guy, it was quite, er difficult [00:45:30] to identify yourself with such people. So when you had noticed you were homosexual or feel attracted to to guys, it was, uh, quite hard to to accept it. Still, I accepted it. Um, it became easier when, uh, I grew. I grew up, and, uh, I moved to to Paris, uh, for my studies. And then, uh, well, I quite [00:46:00] dream a lot about living in Paris. Uh, I wouldn't say it is a a game maker, but in fact, when you or you you used to live in the countryside, Paris seems to be something wonderful. So when I began my study in, uh, in Paris, Uh, it was the first time I could live on my own. I have my own room. I have my own things and, uh, be [00:46:30] out of home and living on my own. That's quite that was quite interesting and very interesting experience at the very beginning. Um, I was in, um what do you call it in France? An inter inter? I don't know. There's an English word for it. So, you know, it is when several people are, um, sharing a room where they're, um they are sleeping together. See? So, uh, at that time, at [00:47:00] the very beginning, it was quite hard for me because I was quite afraid to To have to dream to, To sleep with other guys. Uh, I didn't know how I would react. Um, so I remember quite well that at that time, er, I made up my mind so that, um I woke up very early in the morning just to take my shower er on the alone and er not to have to, [00:47:30] um, to cope with other guys and to trust, to see them under the shower. You see, sometimes it's quite difficult not to react. So, um And then, um, I had to cope with the military duty services. I don't know the right word for it, but in France, we have to, um, to spend one year, uh, for a military service. So I did [00:48:00] it. I must admit, it was I was quite afraid also to to do it. See, when you have to share a life with, uh, many other guys from, uh, quite in quite nice, and it's difficult not to not to react. So But, um, everything was quite OK. So now there wasn't quite many problems, and then [00:48:30] I've been able to really live on my own. And that is to say, I had my real my own flat, which was quite awful and wonderful at the same time. Um, and at that time, it was in the middle of the eighties. Um, it was at that time that AIDS appeared and many people were talking about it as a homosexual disease or things like that. So [00:49:00] but, um, the positive effect was that at that time, actually, people could speak about homosexuality, even it was the bad side. But even they began to to speak about it. It was the very beginning. And, uh, at that time in the middle of the eighties, uh, I chose to have a a Mini what is I don't know if you you know what it is. But in France [00:49:30] it is what we can say is a sort of an ancestor for, uh, internet. And, um, that was quite interesting. You could dialogue first, right to people you you had no ideas about. It could be anywhere in France, where the military existed, and the dialogue the writings and phone them and then meet them. [00:50:00] And it was quite interesting. So, of course, there were specific such services for gays, so I used them. And, uh, that was my the first time I really met people who were feeling like me. So, uh, it was very interesting for me. Interesting. And, uh, sometimes, uh, I must admit, I was quite disappointed in as much as, uh, I didn't expect so many [00:50:30] people to be, um, to be sad to be to feel quite ill at ease with homosexuality. Um, I met several people who had already tried to commit suicide several times because of their homosexuality. I was I was quite surprised, because for me, um, it hasn't raised so many problems. I had accepted my homosexuality, even if [00:51:00] I hadn't really lived it at at that moment. Well, I guess I first realised I was gay when I was about 14. You know, when you first get your sexual, um, um, development or something. And, um, I realised I was fantasising about men rather than girls. I felt very confused about that because, um um well, it made me feel a bit of an outcast in high school and all that stuff because all my mates were getting girlfriends [00:51:30] and and I tried to to to go along as well, because there were actually quite a number of girls that that were attracted to me and and approached, made, made approaches. Uh, but I was, you know, sort of fended it off or kept it away. So I For the first, I guess 4 to 5 years, um, I was convinced it was just a phase in puberty and it would pass after I'd I'd grow older. But when I grew older and like 18 19 I, I realised it wasn't [00:52:00] going to be going to pass, and I still hadn't told anybody. And I wasn't even willing to to accept it for myself. So I still had this big secret. I remember. I always thought I carry this this really big secret with me that nobody knew and not even my parents or or anybody and and that actually made me more of an outcast rather than, um, being gay. I guess it's because, um, I I became a bit secretive and a bit evasive. And, um, I didn't [00:52:30] feel like I really was part of, of Of, of the group of friends. Because because of this big secret. And that continued until I was, like, 24 25 when I first came out And, um, all the time between 14 and 24 I never, ever, uh, had either a girlfriend or a boyfriend. Um, never had sex either. I didn't dare, because I it took me that long to to get to terms with myself. And, um, I even, you know, III I was living in Holland, [00:53:00] Um, when I was 14, uh, in in a small town south of the country, about 100 kilometres south of of Amsterdam. And, yeah, it was a very protected, uh, protective family. I guess, Um, we'd we'd been living abroad quite extensively before that. So, I I I'd seen, you know, quite a bit of the world. And in that sense, I was, um, well developed or or or or had an all round view of of, of of life. [00:53:30] Uh, but I guess my my background is a bit conservative, and I felt very much like I had to live up to the expectations of my parents. My father is a very successful businessman in the Netherlands. And, um, he was, you know, he achieved a lot. He was a known figure in In in Holland. And, um, I felt I had to, um, equal that, at least, and being gay didn't fit in that picture at all. So, um, I wasn't happy with that. [00:54:00] And, um, then when I was 18, No, I was 19. I went to America to college and went to to college in Massachusetts for a year. And then I came back to Holland when I was 20 went to business school in Holland. Went through that, and that was very conservative, Uh, very much like the, uh, the Ivy League kind of business school. Um, 14th century castle and stuff. Um, And there appeared to be a lot of homosexuality [00:54:30] on the campus as well there, because it was like a very closed, uh, environment with a lot of, uh, a lot of men. And, um uh, but homosexuality was an absolute taboo. So that sort of reinforced my, uh, my own feelings about homosexuality and, um, and and and confirmed that it was there was something very bad and something you had to be very secret about. So, um, I went through, um, the business school for three years and graduated and went back to to the States and had my first [00:55:00] job in New York. And I lived in New York in Manhattan for two years and again, you know, it was a very, um, um, very accessible gay environment. And I could have easily, um, started experimenting and finding things out. But as I was working for the consulate, which again was a very sort of, um, conservative, uh, environment. Um, I didn't dare to to do anything in and actually, what I what happens? I got, um there was this girl in New York, a Dutch girl that I met [00:55:30] and she fell in love with me. And I really, really loved her for being a mate, and we got along very well. So for the for the outside world, we were a couple, and we show up at all the parties that that we got invited to through the consulate and with the with all the diplomatic corps and all that stuff. And, um, we were like, the perfect couple we were. We were very good friends, and we have very, you know, very common interests. And she was absolutely charming and and and very entertaining to all the people that I had to entertain [00:56:00] in that job. And so we were like, really, really the perfect couple. And and then I remember I. I felt like Oh, God, if only I was I was straight II. I would have found my perfect match. I would marry this girl, But then at one point she, um she wanted more. She wanted sex. And that's that. That was actually the point where I I She was probably the first that I told that I can't get you what you're looking for. And and we have to, you know, we have to stop this because I can't make you happy. I can't. I can't. [00:56:30] Um I can't be the person that you deserve. And we did have sex once, and it was awful. It was absolutely awful because, um, she was taking all the initiative, and I just let it happen because, well, I mean, I thought she deserved it basically. And, um and I was very confused as well. And after that, I just cried and cried and cried because that, I guess, was the point where I realised that I was gay and was not going to change. Going back to grade five, being in primary school and [00:57:00] having school sports, I was always attracted to the male form. Um, I remember there was a time in the change room and they were getting change at school. And I remember looking at, like, one of our PE teachers, and our principal in the locker room is getting changed after having a swim. And I was just fascinated with the Penis and having hair in it, and I thought, Wow, I'm really attracted to this thing, and then from then on it started building up. So when you were as a young child, because I was quite [00:57:30] flamboyant and I was into, like, the makeup and the nails, and I was all camped up when I was a little boy. Then I got to about high school, and because I was living in the West, it was quite difficult coming out, especially having the real macho wild boys, even though that I was a European boy. I found it quite hard, got to express myself. And at the age of 13, I got into dance, and I wanted to be like a young talent time and [00:58:00] I been dancing now since I was 13. I'm 22 years of age and all through dancing. I was very scared to come out. Um, just in case, because it was all competitive work. I was very scared, Um, to about year 11. I was still haven't come out, but I was slowly coming out because I was doing painting and I wanted to become an artist, and through all my art life, I was focusing on the male form. We used [00:58:30] to have life drawing models coming in. I used to sit there and try to focus, and I enjoyed painting and drawing male nudes. From then on to about year 12, I met one of my friends and then she was a lesbian and we decided I used to have girlfriends. I had a girlfriend for six months. Um, I was intimate with her, but I didn't have any sexual fantasies to towards her. I couldn't, in other words, get it up to have [00:59:00] intercourse with her. But we kissed and cuddled, and I really liked her. She was a very attractive girl. She had, like, long blonde hair with great breast, and we used to go up to the club. Um, we used to go down to King Street, which is one of the public clubs called inflation, and we stand around and then slowly, slowly, I sort of met this lesbian friend of mine, and I thought she knew I was gay and I was in denial. No, I'm not gay. Don't even mention it. So [00:59:30] we ended up going to a club one night, and I wanted to try kissing a boy and going to this club like walking into three places which is in Melbourne, but it's closed down now. It's called The Market walked in and I thought, Oh, my God. I was expecting him to walk around in the nude, but they weren't They were jumping around to this techno music and I got into the podium because I was a dancer doing the competitive work. Um, a guy confronted me and I was really [01:00:00] scared, and I sort of said, No, I'm not interested. And then I went up to my friend and I said, Oh, you know, um, are we gonna pick up tonight the lesbian girl that I was with and she said, Oh, no, I don't think so. I'm too we all too ugly to pick up all these beautiful people. And then from then on, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm too ugly. I'm too ugly. So he came up to me again, and I remember having a star on my right cheek, just a little glitter star that can get from the safe way. It was all camped up just a little with a little sparkle, and he said, Oh, no, get [01:00:30] rid of that So he flicked it off my eye and Then I kissed him and I was there with one of my best friend and my brother. Um now, my best friend had big, strong feelings for me. She was, like, in love with me. Why don't you give anyone else a chance? Not me. And after kissing this guy, I lost my best friend, who I adore and we were always close together. Then from then on, I started realising my sexuality [01:01:00] My art was very influenced. I was very flamboyant. It came out into my dancing where before I was too scared to do a move Where now I'm just like, let everything go. I am who I am. And I'm really happy of coming out because coming from a religious family being also Greek, it has affected me, especially with family, where I confronted my mother and I told her that I was gay and she absolutely went ballistic. She's like, [01:01:30] um I prefer to see myself dead buried to see my son holding hands with another man. Um, but I sort of confronted her and said, Listen how this is my life, but, uh but I don't rub it in with her. I'm still living at home at the moment and working. Um, I don't really flaunt any guys. I don't bring any boys home. I've had boyfriends. I've had several different boyfriends, but I don't think she's ever met any of them. And if she has, we [01:02:00] haven't done anything to show her that that was my man that I was with. And I'm just happy for coming out and being the person I was. And then I was a, I guess, about 10 years old, and it was summer. And the boy across the street, his name was Bobby Mantel. I saw him with his shirt off in jeans, [01:02:30] and I was stunned by the build he had. He was about 12, I would guess a little bit older than I, but a deep tan and a muscular chest besides being very handsome, and it was the first time that I was of a conscious of having erotic feelings toward somewhat of my own sex, And, uh, I never got to tell him that or to do anything with him. We were [01:03:00] just friends, but I always did try to, um, you know, see as much of him as I could because I just thought he was beautiful at that time. Of course, we're talking a lot of years back. Nobody really. At least I didn't know what being gay was. And, uh, I just knew that you were supposed to if you were a male like girls. And so I just dismissed it. And a few subsequent [01:03:30] experiences that I had like that through the years. I also just enjoyed them for what they were and and, uh, got to chase girls like every other boy and go out with girls and eventually got married. And I have to say that I did love her, and I did have exciting sexual times with her. So I think that what I was hoping for was [01:04:00] I would grow out of my desire for men also. And, uh, it didn't happen that way. Of course, the older I got the more attracted to guys I was and then seeing some of the more erotic magazines on the newsstands that were so famous and, uh, in those you know, I I in those magazines, I found [01:04:30] out that there must have been an awful lot of other people like me far more than I ever thought and I started buying those magazines and I started getting excited by the models in the pictures. You know, athletic Model Guild and places like that, mostly from California at the time, male physique and and muscle to one of my favourite Maga magazines, Law of New York. If you know any of those. And [01:05:00] of course, doing that while being married, I had to eventually get to a point where I just decided. I guess this is the way I am. I now know that I must be bisexual, and I just accepted the fact and knew that I had to hide it from everybody. And, of course, the older I got I seemed to go more to males, Uh, rather than females. And eventually, [01:05:30] after many years of marriage, my wife came home unexpectedly from work sick. And I didn't hear her come in because we had a a four level er house and I was up in the office and she heard me on the phone with another guy and she knew, uh, right away. Uh, you know, that, uh, things were were the way they were. And when I told her she [01:06:00] being very religious, decided that as much as it would hurt her, she'd have to divorce me because she couldn't share me with a man or even have that thought. So I was divorced. I figured I she felt that I had betrayed her. And I felt that if she really feels that way, I I shouldn't ruin her life more than perhaps I had already done. And with three Children, [01:06:30] I realised I was scary when I was 15 years old, actually. And it was it wasn't an easy thing for me. I always knew that, uh, I was gay. I just didn't really want to deal with it. Um, I just I. I wanted to get as far away as I could because I didn't know much about it. I grew up in a very small town, And, um, it wasn't something I wanted to do with. And one day I was watching, um, a TV programme and I [01:07:00] they were talking about gay teens and they were coming out, and I could identify with so many of these kids, and it really helped me to realise that, um, it's it's not something to be ashamed of or it's not something that you should have to hide or anything like that. So that really, um, was actually my starting day in the summer, Uh, when I was 15 years old. And, um, ever since then I was dealing with it. And when I was about 16, I got very comfortable [01:07:30] with it, and it took me a good year to be able to, um, get used to the idea and get used to, um, being able to realise the fact that, uh, I was attracted to men and, um, how I was going to actually bring up to friends and family, if I would ever. Um, just a lot of questions were going through my head, and, um, I went through, um, a time where I just kind of wanted to do, uh, go through it alone. And I didn't [01:08:00] want to have to do a whole lot with talking to anybody about it. Kind of have a self discovery time for me. And later, I just wanted to see what other people had done and what their previous histories were. And they what they what they had done as far as telling the parents, uh, teachers, friends, whoever, and, um, so I did. I started attending a support group, and, um, I got a lot of support from them finding out how [01:08:30] some of them came out to different people in their life. That meant something to them. And, um, realising that somebody means something to you that, um, then they'll really mean something to you. They'll usually accept it and, uh, be a part of your life. I don't know. And be a part. Be a part of who you are. I've never been able to, like, actually give a good answer. For when? When I first realised I was gay, um, it [01:09:00] was just sort of, I don't know. I just I just always was And you know, whether or not I knew how to verbalise that or whether or not I even knew that, like, I necessarily had sexual feelings towards people. I, I just I don't know. It was just always there. Somehow, um, I grew up. I grew up in a really, a really, uh, really Christian environment. And when I when I actually did start to to hear and like, I don't know, people would always be saying, you know, it's just like [01:09:30] so evil you know, you hear about these evil facts somewhere, and I'd and on one hand, like I felt really excited about it. I was like, Wow, you know, there are people out there that, like, feel the same thing that I do, but at the same time, it was presented in a way that, like, it was it was really a bad thing, and I should be so ashamed of it. And it took me a long time to be able to sort of break from that idea. Um, and actually, part of part of being able to do that was I had to I had to sort of change my whole belief system. I had to actually get out of Christianity for a while, to be able to, [01:10:00] to have a an unbiased perspective on myself and just my own values. Um, and I, I don't know. That was that was really a very interesting time. That sort of happened a little bit starting in ninth grade. Um, and I was spending a lot of time, like just by myself. Um, I. I changed to public school and I didn't really have a big circle of friends to to sort of I. I don't know, Like when you when you change the when you totally change the people that you're hanging out with, you can you can almost change like everything that you believe [01:10:30] you can change who you are, Um, a lot, a lot more easily than you can otherwise Um, And a lot of the time that that I was that I was hanging out by myself. Uh, I was watching public television and they have a lot of, um not necessarily shows that that are I don't know that have, like, a gay agenda or anything but that it's, I don't know, there's not, like a, um a homophobic bias to anything that I saw on PBS. [01:11:00] And if anything, there actually were some some shows. I don't remember what they were called anymore. Um, but they were actually like gay news shows, and that just totally blew me away. I. I mean, being able to see something like that and just knowing, like, you know, it's it's OK to be gay, and it's not an evil thing, and you're not going to be banned to hell if you you know, if you are gay and they had, like some really cool, interesting debate shows about, um um, just religion and and homosexuality and talking about, um oh, what's [01:11:30] it called? Dignity. Um, I think I think that's what it's called, like a, um, a group within the Catholic Church. Um, and I, uh I just being just being exposed to that, um, really helped me just feel more comfortable with myself. And I think that sort of made it possible for me to, like, start talking openly with some of my friends about that, Um, one thing that was really interesting. Um, I. I was taking German classes at a community college up in Dallas for a while. [01:12:00] Um, and I was I was taking all the classes from the same professor. She was actually from Germany. She was really cool. Um, but we were talking about, um, just being gay. Um, it just came up in class one day, and she was she was just totally blown away by, like, the whole concept of coming out. And, um, she she was telling us, like, one year on national coming out day, some guy was over at dinner and he just, like, felt it was necessary to tell her that she was that that he was gay and she was I mean, I mean, [01:12:30] she didn't care. I mean, it was no big deal at all, but, uh, just like the whole phenomena of that, she couldn't understand it. She was like, So I'm I'm straight, you know, like, WW. What of it? You know, it was I don't know. It was just really cool. II I I don't know. I just think that's such a such a like, healthy, healthy thing. I think it would be so cool if, like, it was no big deal if, like, nobody ever had to come out because or nobody had to, like, actively, like, say, [01:13:00] you know, I'm gay, you know? Or, like, make make, like, a big emotional ordeal out of it. You know, I guess as a lot of people say, I always knew, um, but I've never had a a name for it. Um, I can recall being at school. I can't remember how old I was. I guess young teens, I suppose. And, um, some guy said the word I said, What does that mean? And he said something like, um, that means a guy who like fucking other guys, [01:13:30] and they should be shot. Well, I didn't agree with what he said about being shot, but I certainly knew that that was what I was, that there was a name for it. Um, even though, you know, I've not acted on it. I just knew that I was attracted to, um, men rather than women. So it wasn't until some years later, when I was 19 in 1979 that I I guess I decided to stop [01:14:00] living a life that was a lie and, you know, take the plunge and, um, try and get in touch with some, you know, very gay counselling service. Um, and I thought, you know, that that was one way of sort of getting to know somebody. I just thought the gay community was some, you know, all contained within one pub or something or one meeting place. And that there was, you know, just a few S lazy people, and that would be it. But after being introduced to the gay community, [01:14:30] it was a real pleasant surprise. And immediately, like, I just went out on to, um Oxford Street and was introduced to a whole new world. It was like, this is what I've been missing out on. Even at the 10 to young young age of 19, I felt like, you know, this is where I belonged. It was an interesting feeling, a really happy feeling. And, um, all all I can describe [01:15:00] it as is a feeling of belonging. Um, but, yeah, there's this sort of world out there that wasn't really, you know, known about by the majority of people. Um, but that was that I was part of it, so yeah, I felt part of a larger community and, um, that immediately I just sort of wanted to tell everybody that I was gay. But it was It wasn't always appropriate I. I guess I just told those people who, [01:15:30] um, for me, it was meaningful. Um, like my brothers and sisters. Um, not mum. I didn't feel any need to, um I didn't have that sort of relationship with her where I felt the need to do that, um, so and and still haven't, um and that's my problem. She never asked any questions, and I think she really wants to know. Um, and from then on, it's been, um, something I disclose [01:16:00] only when I really need to. Um I don't think, you know, people don't walk around generally saying, you know what? That that I'm heterosexual or I'm homosexual or or whatever, but, um, if somebody asks or somebody's interested, then it's no problem. Um, all I know is that at that time at that sort of coming out time, I remember it really well, I remember it being one of the happiest times in my life. Um, the the the feeling [01:16:30] of freedom and of, you know, finding who I was, I suppose, or a lot about myself. There was a lot more growth and development and education that came after that. But it was, um I guess, really, and realising that you don't have to leave the rest of your life in a in some sort of way, that doesn't feel really comfortable or it doesn't suit you, and that really isn't true. I realised that [01:17:00] I was gay from, I guess, a fairly early age compared to what I've sort of spoken to a lot of other people that I realised that maybe I was an early starter. It was about the age of 12 when I began to notice, um, my own body and also, um, other people's. It wasn't necessarily men or women. It was both. And then there was a phase where I guess I could have considered myself bisexual. And [01:17:30] that was, I guess that lasted for about a year or two. Maybe the age of 13. 14. Um, there was nothing that directly influenced me. But as I grew older, the attraction to women, I think, just became less and the attraction for men became stronger. And to the extent where eventually I just no longer looked at women. Um, this was a little bit of a shock to me at first, I guess, um, [01:18:00] but it was something that I just assumed would come back, and it never did for me. So I guess I'm still waiting. I have a lot of female friends, and I still get along with women a lot, and actually, I probably get along with them as friends a lot, a lot better than a lot of my male friends. But in terms of a physical attraction, there isn't any other than me being able to notice a woman and saying she's beautiful [01:18:30] or she's very pretty or she's fairly ordinary. I can definitely comment on the state of their looks, but without me thinking that there was any sort of sexual attraction there, whereas with a male body, I guess I can look at a male and think, Yes, he's this or he's that. But there's also the element of whether or not I would be sexually attracted to him. So I grew up knowing that I was attracted to men. But I also grew up in an environment [01:19:00] where I found myself, um, around a lot of homophobic people. My parents were certainly not tolerant of gay people, and I guess being based in the theatre as I wanted to be growing up as a somebody learning, singing and dancing, my parents were particularly paranoid that I would be mixing with a lot of gay people and that somehow they would try and convert me and or approach me or [01:19:30] molest me or whatever they thought they were going to do. None of which ever happened. Even though I was surrounded by a lot of gay people, I didn't actually find any of them attractive. They were all a lot older than me. I was only say 15 or 16 at the time. And so I was definitely around gay men. But there was no, um, threat. There was no try and try and convert me or anything like that. And at the same time, on my my behalf, I didn't feel the need [01:20:00] to approach them or to come out with my own sexuality. So it was something that I suppressed for a long time. Um, that was growing up in the country. And then when I left school, I went to university for four years and I moved to, um Brisbane, which is a, uh, a smaller city in of Australia. But it's still I think it's over a million in terms of its population, and it wasn't until I was 20 [01:20:30] years old, but I finally began to think that not so much that there was a need for me to come out, but that I guess I want to define, um, somebody who I could have a boyfriend and have that sort of intimacy with it wasn't the sexual urges that I, um, was looking to satisfy, but an emotional bonding, I guess that I wanted to have with somebody. So it wasn't until almost until I was 21 [01:21:00] but I had my first sexual experience, which also happened to be with the person that I was my first boyfriend, and so that, um, relationship lasted a year and I was always quite, um, I guess something that's always I've been proud of is that my first sexual experience was in a loving relationship with somebody that I had been friends with for a long time and then was in a relationship for for about 12 months, I realised [01:21:30] I was gay. Probably about 17, maybe, Um, a guy I've met I knew for years was Rob his mate. And, um, one night he stayed over and we were sort of like sitting outside playing spin the bottle as you do with your kids, you know, drink booze and tell dirty stories. And, um, I asked him if he ever thought about being gay and he said no. And then he asked me, and I said, Yeah, sort of. And, um, he said, Have you ever had [01:22:00] any sexual fantasy back eyes? And I said, Yeah, all the time. And then he said, who and I said, Oh, I don't really want to tell you this And she said, No, Tell me And I said, you and he went really? And I said, Yeah, and then he said, Well, to be perfectly honest with you on the phone and I was quite shocked by that because he was the last person I ever expect to to understand. And, um and so we carried on talking and we ended up in bed together. [01:22:30] And then the next morning, I felt so bad, I thought I'd done something wrong and we never talked. We didn't talk about it because we were both so freaked out about it. And so I didn't talk to him for about probably two months after that, and I was in complete shock. And then, um, I used to go to a youth group sort of thing. I wasn't a Christian or anything like that, but a lot of my friends were, and they went to that and I went along, and he used to go to that, too, and, [01:23:00] um and then I saw him there, and, um, we ended up talking, and it just ended up being a sexual thing with that friendship. And, um, one day or one night we got together And, um, I said to him, This can't go on any longer because we've ruined a friendship because of what happened. And, um, we were just using each other for sex, Really? And it was pretty bad. Um, it it really screwed the both of us up because it was [01:23:30] the wrong time in the wrong place. And I've never come out at that stage, and neither would he. And so it stopped. And then I came out to my friends probably about two months after that happened. And, um, when I told my best friend Catherine, I was so scared because I didn't know anybody gay apart from Jodie, a friend. And, um, I told her, and she said to me, um, you're the bestest friend I've ever had. Mike, I love you just the way you are gay, straight. Whatever she said, you're still Mike. It doesn't matter what you are, [01:24:00] And, um, that made me feel so good because I had so much support and coming up to the first person was the hardest. But after that, there were a breeze and, um, the whole time I came out, I made so many more friends because so many more people saw me differently because I was more open and honest with them there without lying or covering up cos they they could tell something was wrong. And, um, I never, ever, ever had one problem. In fact, I had complete bliss And, [01:24:30] um, yeah, I've never had one problem at all. The only thing I really was bad was when I came out to Mum, you know? But she's OK now. She's really good. She doesn't understand it completely, but she knows it's me and I can't change. And, um, I would never be in the other way now. Well, I first realised when I was about 13, but I went through a big denial stage, like where I was in high school. It was like you're not gay and like, if you were gay, you know, you got the best [01:25:00] sort of shit, So I completely denied it from others, and I tried to ignore it myself, and I got to a stage where it was pretty easy and stuff like that. But then, like girls started asking me out and stuff and I keep saying no. And everyone started getting, like, really push, You know. Why are you doing it? Are you or something? It was like all my mates. They were, like, all a big, tough rugby player sort of thing. And they were, like, all had, you know, the really nice ticks and everything. And I hung out with her, like, in crowd [01:25:30] and my, um yeah, I didn't have a girlfriend, and I went, like, two or three years without having a girlfriend. And everyone started thinking, You know what's up here? And your your friends start hassling you and like, and just being sure not many you can buy it, but, you know, you know, it's true and yeah, it just really starts to hurt. So I thought, Well, you know, maybe if I go out with a girl, well, then maybe I will change. Or maybe maybe my feelings can be hidden or something like that. But they never [01:26:00] actually were. So I ended up with that girl and I actually got to the point where I was. I was quite content and like, um, the time when I was going out with this girl was like this guy had a real crush on. And like I, I was like, really good friends with him at the time. And like my girlfriend was like, you know, why do you spend so much time with the money? You spend so much time with me and all I wanted to do was come out and try and ask this guy out because I just wanted to know what he would say, what he'd do if you know, because when you're growing up, you always have this, this picture [01:26:30] of everything, working out perfectly and, you know, being good with someone forever, even if it's not realistic. But and it's like, really hard And like, hm at high school and going to P a would was rather because, like, OK, I was like go in the changing room sort of thing and like and I have the heads down, you know, getting changed. And I was like, Oh, yeah, this is pretty cool. But, um [01:27:00] yeah, and it's like that's once again when people start getting really fishy of it. And, um yeah, and like, there was like one teacher who was, like, obviously really homophobic and like, um, there was this one person at our school who was openly gay and there was only the one. And, um, he picked him constantly and he ended up throwing out of class to find any excuse to throw him out of class. Anyone's attention for a week or anything like that, I It was just another deterrent not [01:27:30] coming out. So like after a year, it got really hard, and I decided that I tell her and then like every couple of weeks, I got to tell her and I just couldn't do it. And then finally, when it got to the stage where I said I would got up and got the tower, it took, like, two weeks to back off because she didn't believe me at all. And then I came out right at the end of seventh form and [01:28:00] things got pretty hard from now on because she turned really nasty and she went through and told my family and everything before I got a chance to, and they didn't take it Well, um, few of the family came to my house because there was a point I was fighting and they came to practically try and kill me I was an only child, uh, an only boy and the oldest in my family, uh, out of all the other you know, cousins and so on. [01:28:30] And, uh, I was really close to my mom. And I guess, um, you know, I was always a bit odd. I always, uh, I guess a little bit effeminate or people just didn't quite know what was going on. And, uh, you know, I didn't like hanging out with guys very often, uh, playing sports and all that stuff. Um, so it's a long a long story in the sense that, um, I ended up being separated from my mom. She became ill, and, uh, my father ended up looking after me for a short [01:29:00] while, and that didn't work out. So I was alone for a little while when I was about, I don't know, about 10 through 12, fending for myself, and then I moved in with a next door neighbour, Uh, a nice lady. I guess she was about 50 at the time. She was also a single mother and had an older son who was, uh, older than me. He was about 25 and, um, Well, I you know, around the age of 10, you start realising what you like and what you're attracted to, and, ah, it's a difficult [01:29:30] time for me anyway, being separated from my mom and I just not necessarily took on her persona. But I, uh II I guess I ended up acting more feminine and like using her whatever was left of her hair products and some of her clothes and that kind of thing, It either to compensate for the fact that she was gone. Or I'm not sure if it was for that or if it was for me, uh, to come to terms with myself and eventually some guy friends that I had, uh, when I was growing up, [01:30:00] common experience for most guys, you know, fool around when you're younger, uh, seeing if you know you both have the same parts and and how they work. And and except for me, uh, I really enjoyed it. Um, so, you know, I remained quite unique and I, you know, well dressed And I had dyed my hair all the time and and, you know, did weird stuff with myself. And at a point in time came when my stepmom was actually quite embarrassed by me. Ah, and [01:30:30] I knew that she was not, you know, very open to, uh, homosexuals, either. So it was a different, difficult place for me to be in. Um, and eventually one day, I just, uh I guess when I was 15, I came out and said, Yes, I am, Uh I am gay, And, uh, I don't want you to have to deal with this, Um, so I'm going to move out. So I did. I moved out, and, um, which was probably a good idea for our relationship with me and my step mom. But [01:31:00] also, it was quite bad in the sense that I I did a lot of things that I probably shouldn't have. I. I assumed that when I was living on my own that I could just go and do what I please when I want. So I you know, I was getting into gay bars quite young, under age. Uh, I learned how to drink way too much and smoke and do all those horrible things way too early. And, uh ah, you know, I frequented bathhouses. I actually, as soon as I moved out, I put an ad in the paper and [01:31:30] the local, I guess it would be like the village voice type of thing. Uh, want ad and lied about my age, of course. But, uh, that's why I took on my my first real experiences with other gay men. Um, uh, it was quite traumatic because a lot of them were older. And, uh, you know, they saw me as a real treat because I was young and I was, you know, I guess cute at the time. And, uh, some of them took advantage of me and so on and so forth. But, uh, from it all, I think [01:32:00] I've grown. And, uh, you know, I'm still gay. I moved to Vancouver and I'm best friends with my step mom. Now she's, you know, she asks a few questions every once in a while, and I'm very blunt with her, and I tell her exactly probably what she doesn't want to hear, and she won't ask any more questions for about another six months, But she's curious, and she's very supportive.
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