This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
So the project is looking at, um, activism and sexuality both 30 years ago and today. And it's particularly, um, looking at, um, queer, female bodied and female identified activism and sexuality. Um, and the project is taking the form of doing a lot of different kinds of research. So research, um, in in the [00:00:30] archives, but also what I'm calling embodied research. So, um, drawing people talking with people, um, doing collaborative drawings and everything Will will go into the light boxes on Courtney place at the end and describe the light boxes. What are they? So the light boxes are a, um, public art project by, uh, Wellington City Council. So there are eight large scale light boxes on Courtney Place, and [00:01:00] they're they're kind of like like billboards, I guess. Like they're on the street, They they sort of echo kind of commercial space, but they're for art. And how do you get to to kind of exhibit in those those boxes? So you write a proposal? Um, so, I I proposed this project well over a year ago, about a year and a half ago. Um, and and like all proposals, you have to describe what you think you're going to do? Um, [00:01:30] and then you start doing the project, and it blossoms and grows and becomes what it actually is going to be. Yeah, and they're up for, um, they'll be up for three or four months. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I'm really excited about them is that it is such a public space, and it's it's an open space. People, anyone walking on the street can see them. You don't have to go into a gallery or Yeah, [00:02:00] So you're saying that you're kind of focusing in on female activism and female bodied activism? Why that in particular? Well, um, one of the things, um, there's a few strands, but I'm really interested in how, um, other other groups and identities protested and worked really hard and took a lot of risks for homosexual law reform and for the rights, [00:02:30] um, to sexually express themselves of gay men of, of and and of trans women, Um, at that time. And how that process of of of coming together over sexual, um, rights over human rights. But how? Our sexual rights, like I I've said to a number of people. We there isn't a law about that about my sex or my sexuality, because [00:03:00] there doesn't need to be because we have the patriarchy and it teaches us to hate our bodies, um, and and be be quiet and silent and good. And it teaches my butch lovers to feel like they're ugly and they're unacceptable and and and on and on and on and on. So it's like, um uh, much more like, much more complicated, much more difficult to kind of put your finger on [00:03:30] and difficult to to see. Whereas I think and I mean a lot of what I've been reading in the archives and hearing from people is that the law was such a galvanising force because it was so clear and it was so clearly, clearly wrong. Um, so, yeah, those That's what I'm interested in, kind of kind of looking at. And I feel like my journey of coming out, um, or coming out, I think of it as as many different things over [00:04:00] the years, um, has been a battle against silence. Um, because my my sexuality has been has been silenced in so many ways. So this is about um, yeah. Working against that. Working against that silencing. Yeah. Can you give me some examples of of how your sexuality has been solved? So, for example, like when I was growing up, Um, like, I have a lot of queer people in [00:04:30] my family. And my, um and I had queer people around me, but I never thought, um, I never thought I could possibly be a lesbian because I felt like a drag queen. Um, so when I when I finally came out when I was around 27 it was like a quite typical, I think, Um, fem experience of thinking. I have to, um I have to cut my hair off. [00:05:00] I have to get rid of my clothes that have sequins on. I have to because I have to be recognisably lesbian. I have to be recognisably queer. Um, and that's that's not true. So that's part of the silencing for me is that I didn't see myself anywhere reflected, um and so I tried to have sex with men and keep making that work because it was like, I don't understand. I don't understand what [00:05:30] I am. I don't know what I am. Um and I think that's yeah. I think we can't be what we can't see. Um, And that's part of queer culture, isn't it? Making ourselves visible in in all of our diversity. Yeah, but also, when I was, um, growing up, there was very, very little dialogue about actual sex. So I mean, the first time I had sex with a man, I just remember it so clearly [00:06:00] And feeling absolutely nothing and thinking that must be normal. Or, like, all of these narratives about kind of, um, female sexuality being like being passive and being about, um, you know, it's not necessarily about you or and And all of that stuff was quite, um uh, yeah, quite difficult to work against. And I didn't have any tools to work against it with. And I hope I really hope that things [00:06:30] are different now, um, for for younger people. But, um, yeah, just the the dialogue and conversations around sex weren't there for me. Yeah. So were you around during homosexual law reform? I was, um I grew up in the UK, so I came to New Zealand when I was 20 So I would have been nine when homosexual law reform [00:07:00] went through here. Um, but I would have been Yeah, in in the UK and in the UK. What? What was the kind of situation there in terms of kind of, um, homosexuality and the legality of it? I don't know when the law changed, but I know that it was illegal in the in the seventies and that my, um my my mother had a lecturer, um, at her university, who she she adored. And he was he was a gay guy. And he was doing [00:07:30] cottaging and getting, and he was arrested. And and so there was, um, Yeah, so I mean, I remember hearing those stories, Um, when I was really young and kind of being told about that in injustice and strangeness. Um, yeah, and they were presented to me as, um that lecturer and his partner as, um just like us. You know, the very much that sort of, um, that sort of narrative Where they, [00:08:00] um They lived in a cottage with a beautiful gate with roses over the You know, those are the kind of stories that yeah, that she told So in your research so far, what have you found? in terms of the kind of, um, the non gay men that were involved in law reform. What? What are the things that you've discovered? Um, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of lesbian stuff in the archives. And, um [00:08:30] and one of the things which is is really interesting is about, um is about solidarity and working together. And there's some really interesting narratives around, um around sexism and, um, lesbians having discussions. There's this fantastic publication called Dyke News. Um, [00:09:00] and their philosophy was to if it was lesbian, they published it. So it's a really amazing kind of snapshot of lots and lots and lots of different opinions. Um and yes. So I think in there there's there's conversations with women talking about Why why are we doing this and talking about, You know, um, female people are brought up to help other people and serve other people, and we have to be careful that [00:09:30] that that we have energy left over for ourselves. Um, and there's also a lot of really amazing passionate, um, writing about yeah, about why we need to be doing this protesting people writing about their, um, about their own experiences of homophobia. Um, coming out because of, um, because of the bill. Um, and just the yeah, the bravery around that [00:10:00] and in terms of the solidarity. Also, like from gay men writing about that and saying, you know, if we want, um, like, we're never going to We need the women. We need lesbians. We need bisexuals. We need, um, the support. And if we're going to gain that support, we have to look at our own sexism, and we have to look at we So there's this. [00:10:30] There's this one incredible piece of writing. Um, where a guy just starts by saying today, I'm I'm ashamed to be a man. Um, and and this is why you know? And he says, uh, the lesbians lesbians don't need us. They've proved that they're perfectly fine without us, but we would be lost without them. Um, so we so that so There were these sort of consciousness raising groups, um, around around sexism. And yeah. So, um, it's [00:11:00] Yeah. It's like the project is almost becoming more about the, um um the the the cracks in our communities And how we, um, get to each other across those cracks. Um and I think that was that was a big part of it 30 years ago. And it's a big part of our communities now. Like it, um, because we're all we're all so different. And sexuality is so personal. And are you looking at material earlier than, say, 85 [00:11:30] 86? Because, I mean, there was a lot of activism happening before that. So are you going further back or are you just concentrating on that kind of peak time of 85 86? I'm kind of looking. I'm looking at the seventies and the eighties and, um, the how many things were were connected, um, and and work around, um, around the treaty and, um, it it's all connected. And I think in in, um, [00:12:00] one of the interviews that's on pride and Z with Elizabeth, and she was talking about being part of the black women's movement and wanting to support sort of mobilise each group to support what other groups were doing. Um, and just help help people by doing whatever they needed. So she yeah, rather than kind of telling other people what they need just listening and mobilising the energy and resources you already [00:12:30] have to provide that. Yeah, Aside from the lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand, are there other kind of, um, pathways or avenues that you're getting that kind of historic kind of angle from? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I've I've always found that research is surprisingly organic. Um, and how it sort of It's like, you dive into the ocean and suddenly it's all around you, Um, and people turn up [00:13:00] and you think this is the perfect person to talk to, And what I'm trying to do is is find the narratives that are not sort of the narratives that we've heard before. Um, and I'm not a historian, and I'm not a journalist. And I'm an artist and a writer. And my friend Moana said to me, um, who's mentoring me through this, um, project, the writing part of it. And she said artists look for connections. That's what we do. So, um, [00:13:30] so I'm talking to yeah, all all sorts of people in terms of interviewing people. So I interviewed um uh, I did an interview recently about, um, bi phobia around that time. Um and yeah, looking at, So I'm so I'm interviewing people. Um, and that's quite an organic process. I'm just sort of trying to find the people that it feels right to interview and interview people who identify in different ways, um, and [00:14:00] get kind of a snapshot in that way. And then, um, there's a range of other things that I'm doing. So I'm I'm kind of gathering a lot of, um stuff, I guess just online about protests at the moment. Like there's so much queer activism happening right now. Um, and I've just had, um I found a video of the booing offstage of John Key. Um, just, you know, on good [00:14:30] old Facebook. And it was it's just such a stunning thing that happened. Um, and I love thinking about how I think that's the last place that he would have expected that to happen because, um, of those ideas about, um, queer culture being sort of, um, you know, being silly or able to be commodified or entertaining. And, um, there was a stunning, um, Trans [00:15:00] woman at the front protesting, and I thought that that is the image that I want to draw, which is really unusual for me. So I've tracked her down through Facebook and talking about Can I draw you, Um, as as part of this project. So it's things like that, which just kind of come up. Um, I'm also doing during pride Week. I'm doing a project called Drawing It Out where I I'm [00:15:30] inviting people to come and, um be drawn in the studio, and I'm calling it fully consensual life drawing. So I will draw whatever you offer me whatever part of your body you offer me or, um, it could be your ear. It could be your back. Um, but something which connects to your sexuality. So that feels really amazing. Um, and a kind of an intimacy as well. Um, between me and the people [00:16:00] who are drawn. So yeah, so there's that kind of research. There's I'm gonna I'm running a series of who we called. Let's talk about sex where we will talk and share and, um yeah, work out like the most common question that I've been asked by straight people about my sexuality is something like, Well, what do you do anyway? And it's like, Wow one. It's none of your business. And two, that's kind of that sums up [00:16:30] so many myths around our sexuality is like what you know, like it doesn't exist. Um, so those who we are about yeah, working out well, it does exist. And let's kind of speak it out together into the world. Yeah. So those are some of the things I'm doing? There's other things. How do you navigate? Um, those kind of intensely personal, um, emotions or feelings [00:17:00] or or stories and then kind of navigate it into, like, a public art work. How does that work? So, um, I consent is really, really important to me. Um, so whatever people tell me or share with me or show me, um, I will work with and then I will show what I've made to them, and they have absolute right to say [00:17:30] yes, that's fine. To go into this context or no, it's not. And if they say no, it's not, uh, I'm gonna literally cut it physically out of the artwork, because the the artwork itself is everything's going to be assemblage. So one of my main values in my art making and my life is that many things are true at once, and conflicting things can be true at once. um so this will be [00:18:00] this will be a presentation of many of many, many truths. Um, altogether So? So the artworks are very layered. Um, so there may be drawings of, of, of bodies, and then there may be text. And so, um yeah, and I think I really like that idea of, um, yeah, cutting things out if they need to be cut out and leaving that as obvious because I think that's a really important [00:18:30] part of our survival. And our culture is that sometimes we need to retreat from the public world and just be together. And we can share things together that we don't want to share out, in out in straight society. Yeah. Do you have any kind of like, um, are there any constraints about what you can and can't show in like in a in a very public street scene? Um, I think I have to. [00:19:00] Everything that I make has to be approved by the public art panel. Um and but I don't I don't have many concerns about about them. They're all artists, and I think it will. It will be fine, but it's more Yeah, what people want to feed through that process and and onto the street. Um, but yeah, I think that's part of that's part of the project is like with, um with drawing [00:19:30] it out. I thought, You know, it may be that no one wants to come and be drawn, and then I will show a blank piece of paper because that's that's fine. Um, so it's kind of all of the methods are quite experimental, and they're also like, um, they're like, offers. I feel like I keep making these offers out into the world and sort of saying, What about this and seeing if it strikes a chord for people you know? And it's OK if [00:20:00] if it doesn't, um because this process is like, I've talked about this project from the beginning as being like looking for my queer of activism and of sexuality. So looking for that, that that grounding that that net, um, those layers of people who've come before me and people who are coming after me to kind of position myself, and I think that process is always [00:20:30] really challenging. It throws up all sorts of things. You find things that you don't want to look at and things that are really comforting. And it's kind of all in that same process. Um, so what I want to present is like, This is what This is what I found and it's a big tangle and I don't have any of the answers, but it's beautiful as well, and it's powerful and it's complicated. And so [00:21:00] the artwork and the writing will reflect that. That complication. Um, so the writing pieces will be bits from the archives, bits of me writing about the process, things, things that, um, I've been allowed to quote that other people have said, um and weaving it all together into this sort of very layered, layered story. Yeah, and the light boxes Do they? Is there going to be a tie [00:21:30] between the boxes, or are they kind of going to be? Well, there's, there's, there's eight of them and they have two sides, So there's 16 panels. Um, so that's one of the things I have to sort of work out through the process is, um yeah, in terms of it being being readable, should it be sort of alternating, you know, 30 years ago and today, or or whatever it is, um, so, yeah, that will be kind of worked out as as [00:22:00] I go. But one of the things that's really great about the light boxes is that a lot of people walk past them regularly. So you I mean, I know with with works that I've really engaged with, I've sort of stopped, you know, more than once, and you'll notice different things about them or yeah, and because the artworks and the writing will be photographed and scanned for me, it's It's a It's an exciting project because they, [00:22:30] um they can be quite, um, temporary sort of, uh, pieces so they can be hanging together by threads and, um, and and because they're just photographed, Uh, so that's sort of, I think, quite an important part of the materiality of the project is that, yeah, our stories are always changing, you know, and we take them apart, and we put them together again in a different way. And that's what that's actually what history is like. It's not. It's [00:23:00] not fixed. It's all these different perspectives. You touched on briefly, um, activism. Now in in New Zealand, Um, are you able to paint a picture of of some of the kind of that you've come across. Yeah. So, um, I, I, um I've been following no pride in prisons. Um, And what? And they've been pretty active [00:23:30] lately, and I met with them up in Auckland, and they, uh, yeah, they're really brave and and interesting. And we're talking about putting how activism is literally putting our bodies in the way of what we are protesting against. And so they, um, recently stopped the pride parade, um broke [00:24:00] through barriers and and stopped the pride parade, and and it had to be rerouted. And that's a really, even just that is such a fascinating, um, situation. Because some people feel they ruined the parade and, you know, and other people feel, um you know, what a great demonstration, Um, and so there's there's a lot of conversation about kind of what what pride is all about, you know, is [00:24:30] it about celebrating and looking good and having fun? Um, and and being, um, celebrating, being allowed to be on the street and being ok. And we've got marriage equality and, um, sort of, aren't we doing well? Um, and then the the other argument, I guess which is about, uh, pride only means anything if it's for everyone. And if everyone is carried [00:25:00] with us, um, and that there are a lot of people who have not been carried with us and whose rights are still in such a stop sorry state as they were 30 years ago. And so let's bring that to, um, let's bring that to the forefront and make that part of yeah, part of part of part of those parades. So it's It's a very interesting moment. Yeah, and I think that, you know, the, um the dildo [00:25:30] throwing at Stephen Joyce and the, um, booing John Key offstage. And it's one thing that has really struck me is how particularly young, queer people identify everything as being connected. So they don't just talk about liberation of queer peoples. They talk about, uh, socialism, and they talk about racism and they talk about. So it's I guess it's the same as what Elizabeth was was [00:26:00] talking about. That um, no one's no one's free until everyone's free. Yeah, Do you allow yourself to have a an opinion on this? Or is, is the artwork kind of a neutral and you're just presenting different aspects. I mean, is there does it have an opinion? I think that, um, yeah, I would struggle to ever call my artwork. Neutral. Um, someone asked me recently, What are your What are your art [00:26:30] proposals like? And I said they are. They are hot and passionate and tangled and and well researched. And that's what they're like, and they just are what they are. And so I think this, uh, this project is like that, but at the same time, it is, uh, it is it it it is open. Uh, I think that one of my gifts as an artist is being able to hold, um, provide [00:27:00] space for truths that are that are almost opposite to each other. And people. People have very passionate views about each other and identities and all sorts of things. And what's important to me is that nobody is is squashed. I don't want to be squashed. And but that means that I also have to listen to some things that I might find difficult to. Um, that's my dog. [00:27:30] And you've mentioned the word solidarity a number of times and and and I guess, I wonder I mean, do you see? Um uh, you know, the rainbow community communities in in I mean is Is there is there solidarity? Now, do you think? I think there's I think there's a mixture. I think there's, um, some. And I think it comes down to privilege [00:28:00] to a large degree. I think that, um some people, of course, are doing better than others in the world. And, um, it it's the the ones of us who are more able to, um, to pass or to be part of the world that we've got now. And what I'm interested in is making new worlds. I'm not interested in trying to fit into a world that already exists. Um, [00:28:30] and when I was a child, I grew up with Glastonbury Festival and many festivals that grew from from nothing. Um and so that's kind of part of my world view is that we Can we actually create the world? We don't have to kind of be obedient to what? To how we're told. Things have to be. But I think those, um yeah, the solidarity comes from, um it come. It comes from, uh, being able to listen [00:29:00] to each other. Um, and and but which is a lovely, you know, thing to think and say But part of that is, um can be really, really uncomfortable because always acknowledging your own privilege is uncomfortable and sad and and, um but that's what we have to keep. Um, that's what we have to keep doing. So I mean, with the I'm running a fundraising campaign through boosted and it's [00:29:30] Yeah, um, again recently said to me she was in AAA writers' festival in Minsk and she said I heard this local saying, which was the cracks in the country run through the artist and this project is very much like that. And the fundraising campaign is very much like that. So the the cracks in our community are being shown to me through this process. So, um, for example, only two [00:30:00] gay men have donated to that campaign. Three No. 31 more yesterday. Um and I asked some really close friends Why? They thought that was and like, what am I doing wrong? Or and they said we just it doesn't have anything to do with us. And yeah, it was like, Oh, ok, um, I have to tell that story more clearly because, um, these this project is in part, [00:30:30] the stories of people who supported homosexual law reform to go through. And they worked really, really hard, and they took a lot of risks. And, um, it's kind of I find that frightening and sad that yes, female stories sort of get get, get lost in that history because, um, because we're not because we're not written into history enough. So [00:31:00] yeah, those are the kind of cracks that that I'm seeing and also cracks. Um, where it's like, um, it like like for me defining my audience for this, um, project and the of this project, um, took months of working out, and at first I really I wanted it to just be a lesbian project. That's an identity that's really important to me. And it's [00:31:30] how a lot of women identified at that time, and they may not identify that way now, Um, but when I went into the archives the first day that I spent in the archives reading lesbian feminist, um, writing about who was allowed in and who wasn't, um, and that bisexuals weren't allowed in, and if you had ever had sex with a man, you weren't allowed in. And if you were firm or if you were, but [00:32:00] you weren't allowed in. And I was so shocked, I thought I can't do this project. You know, it felt like it was so hateful. Um, and I guess that's that's part of this. Like, you find things that you think I don't want to find that I don't want to look at that. But that is part of that is part of where we've come from. And so at that point, I started thinking about yeah, what I could what I could, um, stand [00:32:30] by and what I could, um, what I could stand for. And I thought, I can't I can't be a part of that narrative, and I can't continue that narrative. And that will mean that some, um, lesbians will not come to this, and they will not be a part of part of this, and that's that's a real shame, but it it has to be OK. And I think that their voices are in this through [00:33:00] they they are. They are in this through the archives as well. Um, which is Yeah, which is cool, but yeah, there's a lot of cracks. Yeah, so, on a personal level, as as as an artist dealing with all these, um, these things and especially the the the kind of some of the hateful things and some of the destructive energies around, um, around these issues. I mean, how do you deal with that? Yeah, um, it's [00:33:30] been It's quite it's quite hard work. And I, um, have been doing things like, uh, reading rom coms at night. Like I'm like, you just have to read something really, really frivolous and, you know, go and jump in the ocean. And but also, um, something I've been trying to remember and practise recently is that, um I I and and it's like so much wisdom that I need [00:34:00] is coming through the archives and coming through my ancestors. So there was a bit where someone wrote, um, our sense of humour is our best weapon, and I thought, Yes. And it's also our best, um, defence. And so for me, I've been in my art practise, sort of. I think of it as, like my little girl, where she's like, I just want to play with Glen. I don't care. I care about all this stuff. I just And it's like, yes, [00:34:30] go with that. And I think that is such a massive part of queer culture and watching, you know, footage of of pride, parades. And it just it was like it struck me all over again. How radical and how brave it is to be so expressive, um, of ourselves and of our identities and of of play and of of fun and and of seriousness. So it's kind [00:35:00] of, um, yeah, just trying to keep that, Um, yeah, keep that balance. Yeah, is is good. And you've mentioned, um, a baker a couple of times, and it must just be, um, so special to have her on your shoulder. I just watching over you. She is. She's in Berlin at the moment, But, um, we've known each other for many, many years And, um, yes, So she's She's an amazing [00:35:30] mentor through the project, and and also, when I come to, um, pulling together the writing as well. Um, and there's I've got I've got a really amazing team of people working with me and collaborating with me on this project. So I have a, um, intern through Massie. Uh, Nathaniel Gordon stables, and he's he's really he's really wonderful. I have a queer youth facilitator. Um, Sasha Hartman Hughes. [00:36:00] Um, and Cassie Harten has been working with me in a capacity as well. Um, tash, hell dot is gonna be photographing and videoing. Um, and of course, my partner, Crete has been amazing. Making boosted videos and helping me edit things and and being being a real cheerleader and an encourager as well. Um, so I think it's a really important part of this project, that collaborative, sort [00:36:30] of, um, process and different. Um, yeah, different voices and perspectives and identities that are feeding in to yeah, the whole form of the project and the stories that it's telling. So that's something that I want to do, um, after the light boxes open. But while they're still up, like probably in in October or November, it's run a big where we can present all of this research. Um, and maybe people who [00:37:00] I've interviewed want to speak, um, or people I've collaborate collaborated with can show, you know, their their work separately. Talk about the process. And and I think that will be a really amazing um, yeah, time to To to really open some of this conversation up. Yeah.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags