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So Hi, everybody. Um, so this is my first workshop, Uh, So bear with me. Um, it's just about the intersectionality between, uh, people of faith, or have come from a background of faith and, um, identify with a diverse range of, uh, sexuality, sexes and genders. Um, so if you want to start, Yeah, um, as I said, I'm Christo. I'm originally from Austria. [00:00:30] Um, I'm part of the Roman Catholic Church because I was baptised and had my first communion and, um, confirmation, I think. Yeah. Um, um I don't feel part of the church anymore, but I I'm in a that the Catholic church has, um, a strong influence in everyday life. So it's part of my my home culture, [00:01:00] and, um, part of who I am and how I grew up. Um, just an example. It's just, um, going deep into politics that, um, parties listening to the bishop conference and getting advice from them. Um, that we have lost that, um, when you are part of the church, that, um, part of your salary is deducted. Um, so it's kind of like the whole lifestyle and also is very be dominant, [00:01:30] um, catholic, and that's how I grew up in Austria. Um, I also worked a long time for a Catholic, um, Children's organisation. Um, yeah. Just work volunteering, um, under under the family bishop in Austria. Um, um, who has quite a strong stance against homosexuality. So, [00:02:00] um, yeah, that's that's one part of my difficult story. Um, So I'll continue. I do want to introduce him, and we can continue. Um, yeah, faith and spirituality is, um, hard to explain for me. Um, as I said, I've worked for the, um, Catholic organisation, and in this setting, I was I was out. So there was There were employees [00:02:30] who got paid in the office, and there were volunteers, and they all knew that, um, I identified as gay back then, and they all knew that I was gay. Um, just not, uh, in the hierarchy of high ups of the bishop and and the priests. They didn't know that I'm gay. Not because I didn't tell them, but just it never came up. Um, and, um, on the other side, I worked as well for, um, [00:03:00] for a gay and lesbian organisation and that kind of a school art project. There I was leading the project. And, um, I had kind of those two worlds at the same time. And I think that's often the struggle with combining your faith with your sexuality or gender identity that you have to get this balance right. And for a long time, for me, the balance was OK, Um, and in the setting [00:03:30] of the Catholic Church, I could change small things. But you can't change the whole institution at once, just as an individual. And for me, it was more living my spirituality in this setting. And, um yeah, and it was fine for a long time for me. But at some stage, I felt [00:04:00] more like myself in the setting of the of the gay and lesbian organisation of the volunteer work. I did there because they accepted more of me rather than the Catholic selling where I worked in um, and in Austria, you can drop out of the church so you can decide you don't want to be part of the Roman Catholic Church anymore. And then you don't have to pay your your fees from your salary anymore. That's what [00:04:30] a lot of people do when they are fed up with the church or have problems, then they just drop out of it. And at some stage, I did that because I couldn't balance it anymore. Because I felt more like myself in the one setting and less as a whole in the other setting, because I always had to please and, um, just stretch myself into a direction I didn't want to. Yeah. [00:05:00] Um, so I grew up and a Well, my mom is a Christian, and we were going to church, and I'm sorry. Um, I was baptised as a child. I had my first communion, uh, at our family church and, um, that sort of thing. And I think, Yeah. So, [00:05:30] like, I did some, uh, youth work through some churches as I was sort of growing up. And, um, yeah, I guess that trying to find where you can fit when you don't know people's views and how you can sort of subtly slide that into a conversation and stuff like that. So I guess like, I still identify, uh, as Christian. Although my values may be somewhat different [00:06:00] to what others see as Christian, I think like I've sort of made my own definition to it. because of what it is to me, if that makes sense, you know? So, yeah. Oh, I was born and raised in the Mormon faith. Um, both my parents are strong mormons. Um, and my great great grandma was a part of the, um, push to get [00:06:30] a, um, a church in new, a new and Yeah, and I'll touch base on my story after that introduction. Awesome. Um, hi, everyone. Um, my one is a bit complex. Um, but yeah, I'll try to explain as much as I can, but feel free a after this session to ask me questions. Um, I was born in, um, in a family that didn't, uh, attend church. We [00:07:00] didn't have, um, a religion as such, which is quite weird in a Pacific family. Um, but when I did attend church and associate myself with religion, it was when my auntie came in the picture, and it was with the Christian Church. Um, and, you know, I went about my journey, uh, trying to find myself in a church, and things didn't work out as well as I wanted it to. Um, eventually, I discovered, uh, a belief in a congregation that I'm currently [00:07:30] with, um and we called the, um We're a mixture of Christian practise as well as Jewish Messianic practises as well. Um, just a bit of context for you guys as, um existed. Um, it's It's an ancient faith, and it existed in the time of Jesus. Or as we call him Yeshua, Um, in the Hebrew language. Um, they've been known, uh, for writing the scrolls. Um, and they they practise, um, spirituality. They practise [00:08:00] healing. Um, and they're quite accepting of diverse genders and sexualities as well. Which was another reason why I was quite open to it, but yeah. Thank you. Hi. Hi. Um, so when I was little, um, I was, like, two and my parents split up. Um, So when I was at dad's, um, I was pretty much half raised by my nana. Her She would like come to our house every like, 2 to 3 times a week. And every time she there, we have, like, bible time on Christian and [00:08:30] have, like, bible time. And she'd read me Bible stories. And when I never really went to church, but that was like what I like got And then so that continued. And then July last year, she passed away. So, um and then I started going to, um, like a youth group in Mount Eden because I felt like I needed to because, like, that's what she want for me. And but then when I was there, I realised I actually enjoyed it. And I actually, like, follow it and stuff. But [00:09:00] yeah, like, I don't know. I don't really identify as a Christian, but I still go like because I don't know, I kind of like some of the messages are quite good. Like because, um, the youth group I go to not all of it's like like shoving like religion down your throat and stuff. It's mainly like, um, like, some of them are really good, like life messages like respecting your body and stuff like that. So yeah, mhm. [00:09:30] Um, so are you open about your faith in Queer spaces or with Queer people? And how has that been received? I probably like I'm not as open about it as I'd actually like to be. And I think that's often because sometimes religion can be made into such a joke as well, you know, um, especially in queer spaces, I think, um, so yeah, Not not as much [00:10:00] as I'd like to be. Yeah, it depends. Yeah, Sometimes it's It's hard to be, uh, to talk about religion or or faith in a queer setting because a lot of people had problems in the past, Um, that the church was not very accepting. Um, a lot of people just I really fed up about the whole institution itself, detached from what it actually should be and and mean. [00:10:30] So there was a lot of hate going on, and, um, was the same in Austria as in, um, in New Zealand. Probably like 30 years ago, when, um, faith groups just raced a lot. And, um, yeah, I would. Well, at the moment, I'm starting to find back and find my spirituality again. But in the past, um, I would [00:11:00] have liked to be more open about it, but yeah, as you said jokes and, um, some relax. And so, like, I just fear of sufficient missionary. It's kind of, you know, yes. I don't think, um, religion or faith should be hidden. I'm quite open to it. Um, and I guess that's just how I've been raised And if someone has a problem with it [00:11:30] Oh, well, yeah, I agree with I think a lot of my friends, um, know what faith I follow. Um, I do also agree that maybe there's an opportunity for more discussion around it. Um, because I see that there's some spaces. Um, where it's where there's a need for it. Um, because as well as home school and, um, in the community within the community, The church. Um, [00:12:00] I guess talking about the church is not talked about enough. Um, but yeah. I don't know. I think it's definitely needed. Yeah. I'm not really, like, open about my faith and, like, queer spaces and stuff because I feel like it could make some people uncomfortable. Like they could feel, like, uncomfortable with me. Maybe they think, like, I'll judge them or something, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, is there a place where [00:12:30] you feel accepted to show both of your identities? Well done, I guess. At home. How does that count? You know, like I think I've been really blessed with the family that I have. Um my mom is, uh, Christian and has similar values and sort of defines Christianity herself. with, you know, different. Yeah. Anyway, um, [00:13:00] and, um, yeah, they're really loving and accepting of, uh, I guess where my sister and I identify and how we are just ourselves. So I guess homes pretty much the main thing for me. My parents are not very religious. Never. I've been, um the last time I felt accepted with [00:13:30] both things was when I went with my partner, um, to church last Christmas. Yeah, he was raised, um, atheist, Which is quite funny because he gets more into faith, the older he gets, and I'm going in the other direction, which is a little bit hard to balance. Um, but that was when I felt felt [00:14:00] OK with both things. Yeah. Oh, when I was, um, 13 years old, I was shifted to go stay with my dad's brother, Um, who holds a, um, priesthood within our family because he's the eldest brother. Um, and I had my life planned out for me that I would attend church college. Um, at this time, I was still within my safe space, trying to figure out who I was as a person. Um, [00:14:30] and I knew that I was different, and I knew that I was attracted to boys. I knew that I wanted to be a girl. And I was against the teachings of the gospel within the Mormon faith. Um, so I had to, like, quickly think of how am I going to get out of this situation? Because my life has already been planned for me. Um, so I decided that I'm gonna have a fight with my cousin and get kicked out and shift it back to my parents. Um, and that's exactly how it played out. Um, yeah. [00:15:00] So I got shifted back to my parents, and I knew that this was a start for me, because if my life was planned out for me, I'll be doing everything, um, for people, not for myself. Um, And then, at the age of 60 I continued to go to church and, um, within the Mormon faith, there's, like, tears of, like, the ironic priesthood, and then priests and teachers. And I got up to the tier of [00:15:30] priests, and, um, I just knew it wasn't right for me. Um, and even having the, um, you know, having the the role of serving sacrament. Um, you know, it was a little bit too much for me because I didn't want to wear a suit and tie. I wanted to wear a skirt like all the other girls. Um, so one day I had to plan, like, [00:16:00] what is this gonna look like for me? Because I'm so caught up with, um, you know, the run at priesthood, that if I was to rock up to church in a skirt, how are they gonna approach the situation? Um And so one day, I decided to go to church in a school, and I was asked to go and speak to our bishop and the bishop had, um said to me that what I'm doing is really, really wrong. And, um, I despaired because [00:16:30] I had worked up so much courage just to wear this, wear the skirt to church. And everyone was looking at me like I was a thing. No, I was a person. I was a thing. Um, and, you know, I tried to hold my pride, and, um, yeah, speaking to the bishop and the bishop, telling me that what I was doing was wrong was, um, clarification that maybe this is church isn't the right church for me. Um, because [00:17:00] there's, like, a sign in front of our church that says all welcome and clearly that there was no welcome for people like myself and still at this at this age, I was still trying to find my identity or, you know, find myself as a person knowing that I wanted to be a woman knowing that, you know, I'm trying to create safe plan safety plans for me to, um, express that, um and then, Yeah, And like just all the relationships and the history [00:17:30] of being raised in the church, it was like it was put to the side like I never existed and no one contacted me. And then I found out that, you know, I was excommunicated from the church because, um, you know, when you look at words like abomination, it's that word actually means, if you know you're doing something wrong, it's an abomination. Whether it's, you know, against the values and principles of, um, of of your faith. For us, that's [00:18:00] abomination. And apparently I was an abomination at that time. And within this time, I I always gave the anger and frustration to God because II, I didn't really understand. Why was I put on to this earth? Um, because everything just wasn't going according to my plan that I had set for myself. Um and yeah. Then if you are familiar with the Bible, there's a story about job and how job was, um tested, [00:18:30] Um, because he had so much integrity for God and, you know, and just finding that love for God in your heart it's it's such a powerful, um, a powerful feeling that regardless of what people say, whether you know you're transgender or, you know, you're from the rain space and you're a Christian, um, it it's not really valid to me. You know? It doesn't really hurt me because I found that place. [00:19:00] Um, with God, you know, I put my heart to God and, um, going back to, you know, job job was, um, put, you know, he was he enjoyed so many challenges. And I feel like, you know, I can relate because, you know, like, losing friends. And, um, all these people so close to you or people you thought were so close to you just disappearing and like for me, I don't blame, You know, I don't blame them [00:19:30] because it came as a shock. I didn't approach and say, Hey, guys, you know, because I didn't know myself, but, um, I really thought that out of all people, my own like congregation would be there supporting me. Um, and clearly, it wasn't what I had planned. But anyways, um, for me, when I look at what is a Christian although, you know, our faiths or religions Mormon, Um, I believe [00:20:00] like a Christian is a follow of Christ. And in order for, um, yeah, to live the teachings of you know what God has paid for us. There needs to be, like, open discussions around, like, you know, faith and religion. And people get like, you know, spirituality and stuff mixed up with, like, religion and faith. And yeah, for me, I'm, like, really clear And like, my principles and my being as a person. [00:20:30] So, um, that's a question. You, bro. Um, I'm just buzzing up because, um, I, I I'm seeing a lot of similarities And what, um, my panellists have said and I'm pretty sure there's similarities within all of our stories when it comes to faith in church and religion. Um, like um, some of the spaces that I have felt uncomfortable, um, being myself or expressing myself and my worship to God, [00:21:00] um, has been when I was in the Christian church, and it's it's it's not a representative of the whole Christian Church, but just that church in particular. Um, where at the time, I was a part of the worship team And, um, you know, every Sunday I'd be singing on that stage my worship to God, And, um, part of me felt a bit conflicted because I didn't feel like I had a right to be on that stage singing worship because of who I was. [00:21:30] And, um, when things kind of unfolded, um, and the news broke out that I was the way that I was that I was gay. And, um, at that time I had a partner, Um, like my sister and niece, I started to see that a lot of the people that I thought were my real friends, um, started to reveal themselves in their true intentions. Um, and you know, I can I can definitely say it's the most heartbreaking thing as a young person to go through, Um, [00:22:00] but at the same time. There's always hope at the end of the tunnel and I. I look back now on my journey, and I just think how fortunate I am to be in the space that I am at, um, Where I feel confident in myself and my faith. Um, And I'm in a place now, um, that I feel comfortable, You know, the faith that I practise. Um, you know, they're so accepting of gender and sexuality, diverse people, um, that I remember on the first day I sat down on my first kind [00:22:30] of worship session, and, um, my partner, Alex who I think a lot of you have met. But some of you haven't, um He had been going to this faith before. Um, and a lot of his family members is in this faith as well. And I remember the first time that I went to this congregation. Um, And the thing that kind of stood out for me that made me aware that I was accepted was when the, um we call it our rabbi or some of you call it your pastor. So it's our teacher. He got [00:23:00] up on the session and he said, um I would just like to welcome Alex and his partner, Peter. And that was one of the most like, fulfilling things that I've ever felt in my life because upon entering the building of the, um, worship it kind of I, I felt uncomfortable already, because in my mind, I had already, um, built up situations in my mind of what was going to happen. People were not going to accept me. People were gonna, um, call me, you know, all everything under the sun. Um, but then when that happened, [00:23:30] it kind of opened my eyes to the fact that, yes, you can be rainbow. And yes, you can worship God, and, um also the fact that we shouldn't be defined by what people say about us. Um, so in a sense, it's an encouragement to myself and to us all, um, that if you do want to practise a belief or faith, then, um, continue on it. Don't. Don't let the world discourage you from, um following that path for yourself. Discover it for yourself. Because I feel like we're all at this stage where [00:24:00] I know for myself as well where I'm still discovering new things every day, and it will always be a learning process. There's never an end point where you'll get to that. You will say I definitely know who I am, you know? You're always discovering it. Yeah. Um, can you please repeat the question? So that was, uh, is there a Is there a place where you feel accepted to show both of your identities? Not really like school. I kind of don't [00:24:30] like share both because it's like because my school is very like, culturally diverse. So there's a lot of different religions and stuff and, like maybe if I share my ideas and my thoughts and may offend someone or I don't really want, like, an argument or something and about like, my sexuality and stuff, Um, I don't I'm not really out at school or anywhere else, but to [00:25:00] my parents. And last year, like rumours got out about me, and then I found out like what you're saying, like the true friends. Um, my friends were telling me to get out of the girl's bathroom because I was gonna pour on them or something. So they as soon as I went to the bathroom, they would leave or stuff like that. So and yeah, at church, I don't really like I'm not out and yeah, OK, uh, what are some things that you would like [00:25:30] people to know about your faith? You can be religious or Christian or whatever, and you don't have to be a bad guy, you know, like I think so. Often people are like, Oh, Christians are terrible people, like they're off doing protests and doing all these really terrible things all over the world. But actually, like there are, you know, you've got to get to know the individual. You can't judge everyone for that. [00:26:00] And I guess that's one thing that it's sort of like, Oh, you're a Christian and it's sort of like have a with me about it and find out how I like why I identify as that and, you know, sort of unpack it a bit because there are so many different religions, even on this panel, you know, we see that there's a variety and, um, you know, although we may have the same title to what we identify as we often have those different [00:26:30] values and that sort of thing. So I guess just acknowledging individuals within that title. You know, little bit side tracking, probably on the question, but following up on, um, what you said, um, I use spirituality more often because I'm very reluctant to use the term religion or religious, because for me, it's always this whole institution that is against me rather [00:27:00] than what I actually feel with the church and with my faith. That's why I'm Yeah, I wish I would have been braver to go the path along rather than just say I had enough and I don't want to deal with it anymore. And, um, yeah, I think that's something to be to find their own pathway. And and everyone, [00:27:30] um has to shape their own faith, how it feels good for them. And I think that's one important part. It's always a There's no goal, you know. It's always a pathway, and you always learn new things. And and I think that's that's exciting but also a little bit boring as well. Because, yeah, you're not sure where to go and what comes along. Yeah, [00:28:00] I No, no. Um, what are some things that you would like people to know about? Your faith. Now, I think I've already shared majority of it. Um, but I guess, um, fact that I follow we we practise a lot of, um it's so hard to find a word for it, but, um, i'll just use spirituality. Yeah, um, we're less likely to use the term religion. Uh, we're more [00:28:30] associated with the word spirituality because we kind of see how we see. Um, we have this approach where we see all religions as a part of God. You know, um, therefore, our study when we study every Sunday. So we have our our worship on Saturdays because in our belief, um, that's what we believe. That the original Sabbath is on Saturdays and on Sundays. We have our studies, and what we do is we We study about every religion under the sun. We we've recently learned about Buddhism. [00:29:00] Um, and we're continuing to make our way around. Um, so I believe we believe, like I said, that, um, every religion represents a part of God, and his nature is represented in every single religion. Um, and I, I feel like for me, that's helped me see people for who they are, um, and see their belief as something really beautiful rather than, you know, relying on the media or, um, the people around me as a source for a label for certain religions. So [00:29:30] that's been really helpful for me anyway. Oh, yeah. Um, just that, like, you don't have to follow everything in the Bible like you can take the bits that are closest to you, like and but like, when people like use the Bible to insult people like like homophobia and stuff, they just take the bits that are like gonna hurt people. But they don't follow everything. And it's like, [00:30:00] Well, if you're gonna follow something so strictly, then you're gonna Then you should follow others like, but yeah, like for me, I ignore, like the ho the homophobic parts of the Bible because I'm like, Well, that's not relevant to me. So I follow this stuff like, that's, like, good teaching and stuff. Hm. Yeah, I feel, um for me, like being raised in in the church, it was more like, I think, like a lot of [00:30:30] like our pacific or, you know, like religion and culture is always mixed, and they try and combine the two to, like, take their comfort or suitable I think. And, um, yeah, it's such a confusing. I know it's confusing to get gist of it, but, um, yeah, I've been like I do workshops and stuff in schools with young people and within the professional setting as well. And like, people always come at me with, like, [00:31:00] religious stuff, and, you know, for me, it's like if we're looking at, you know, trying to find a religion, you gotta be OK with yourself. Because, you know, if you're OK with yourself, Like what people say really isn't valid. Thanks. Um, what would you say to people who might be stuck in the middle between, uh, their faith, their gender, sexuality or, um, [00:31:30] sex identity feeling like they need to choose one or the other? Sorry, if you don't mind that, um, don't choose one or the other. Um, continue viewing you, um, I. I know there may be some cases in situations where you feel like you have to, and sometimes you sometimes in situations where you you might feel like you're in danger. Or, um, you might be putting yourself in a risky situation. It may just mean that you have to for that meantime, [00:32:00] um, but for the long run, and I know it's a continual process, um, that we each have to go through individually. But, um, I think it's a learning, um that a lot of I don't speak on behalf of my partner, but I'm pretty sure it's a learning that we've all taken that, um, along the way. You kind of find that both the identities merge and then, you know, it's It's a growing thing where you start to learn that. Hey, I don't need to separate them. I could be both at the same time [00:32:30] and I can still be accepted. Um, so, yeah, I guess it's just knowing as well that there are people out there who accept people who let's say, are gay and are Christian at the same time. It's completely normal, and there are people out there like that. So just be open to it. Yeah, I like agree, like you shouldn't have to pick. You should, like, find your middle ground like you don't have to follow everything that's not relevant to you. So say if you're like queer and you want to follow things from the Bible, you can just choose those things [00:33:00] and just follow them. And like Christians that say, pick one or the other, it comes down to you as an individual of what works best for you. Hm? Enjoy the journey. You know, um, it's easier said than done. I guess when you're at the end of it. But I think, um, really valuing that, actually, your journey to figuring out where you're [00:33:30] at. And, um, how you want to identify whether that's, um, faith wise or gender sexuality, Um, I think just really embrace it and go with it. And yeah, you totally don't need to choose. I definitely agree with that. Um, And there are supports out there, too, though, as well, Like, um queer spaces or, um, faith spaces. Or, you know, like I think there are supports there. [00:34:00] So I think you're also not alone because, you know, we've all been through similar things as far as the journey goes, you know, And, um, I think lots of people go through that journey, so definitely, yeah, keep going. And it does continue like it doesn't stop, but it just maybe gets a little easier after a while. So I think just definitely Yeah, I think find the right people. You will meet a lot of people who would discourage you and let [00:34:30] you choose one or the other. And I think they just don't get it. And they don't get you and they don't understand where you are. And I think if you search for other people, you will find your way easier. Yeah, and I often wish I would have met people earlier or on a different stage. But yeah, that's just part of the journey as well. And I think the people make the church because, [00:35:00] yeah, that's like when you have priests who totally out of context, it's easy to discourage you to follow your faith. And then you meet others where you can be who you are and what you want, and it's so easy to live how you are. And I would always just say, find the right people. Um, this is sort of a strange [00:35:30] question, But, um, how does faith make you feel or your faith? Um, how has it benefited you? 10 being connected to the church? It's a sense of belonging, and I know like within my heart that God has a plan for me and in order for me to to get to where he wants me to be, um, that there's gonna be all these challenges that come. They come on to this path [00:36:00] of my journey. And, um, I know that we're just like renters in this world that there's a better world after this life, but we need to live this life in order to get to that life. Hm. Um, like attorneys, I agree with the the sense of belonging. Um, and also, um, in the year 2013, I was really fortunate. Um uh, because there was a there [00:36:30] was, you know, like a marriage or bonding ceremony held for me and my partner, which is really, really special. Um, and it was the first of its kind that was done in our congregation. Um, so that that that was that was like the the stamp on the leader to say Yes, you are definitely accepted. Um, so that that's how it's made me feel. And it's continued to build spaces where I can discuss more and educate the people in our congregation about who we are and what the other identities are in in the rainbow space [00:37:00] um, but yeah, I also feel like, um, you know, with the whole well-being thing. You know, when when we're unwell. Um, mentally, Spiritually, Emotionally. Um, having a faith really centres you. And, um, you know, after a long week, you get to that place where you, um, where you get to worship or where you get to let things out, and it's it's an awesome place to be able to express who you are and [00:37:30] express your feelings. Um, and I. I think that works right across the board with all faiths like it's such an awesome opportunity and platform for you to express who you are, Um, whether it's in prayer or whether it's in music or, um using any kind of medium. I think it's awesome. I do kind of feel, um, isolated sometimes at church because like some of the preachings are [00:38:00] like homophobic and stuff. And then you feel like it's targeted to you because you're sitting there and you've got all these thoughts going through your head, and they're saying that like you're wrong and stuff like that, Um, because earlier this year I went to like a Christian camp, and, um, it was like a four day camp and one of the nights the preaching was, um this man he was telling a story about when he was driving home. He saw a billboard saying like the air or something, and [00:38:30] he was saying how, like, despicable it was that these things were on billboards. And then he goes ahead and talks about K Road, and he said that there's like, same sex couples on billboards and how it's so disgusting and an abomination and stuff. And I was just sitting there thinking, like, Am I an abomination? Is this targeted at me? So, um, yeah, mhm. But I feel like it kind of has made me stronger. Like because, yeah, [00:39:00] I think there's definitely like that, um, that isolation to it, Like I think. Definitely. Um yeah. Trying to find the people that have those values that are, um, similar or same to you. And, um, making those supports is really, really powerful. And having those, um, people to sort of that encouragement [00:39:30] as well. And, you know, reminding you you're not alone, that sort of thing. I think that's been really great, but I think like I was doing, uh, youth work in a local church, and, um, one of the other youth workers there was very clear on where his values lay. And, um, I went and spoke to one of the pastors [00:40:00] and said, actually, you know, where does the church values lie? Where, um, around, um, non hetero, non binary, that sort of thing. Um, and there was never a straight answer. Um, I was never able to be told an exact answer. And I think that's when I was able to say, Well, you know, like this, this isn't for me. Like this isn't the space I don't need to be, [00:40:30] Um I guess, like, put down in what I was doing because of the other person's values. And so I think, Yeah, definitely finding those people that are encouraging you and, you know, being OK to stand up and acknowledge that you're worth so much. And you definitely don't. Yeah, I think just finding the people is so important. And I think, yeah, they're definitely the people and that we will stick by you, and they're the huge [00:41:00] benefit, I guess of the whole journey. So just sorry and in any setting, you know, if you go by the fruits of that. You know, if you go to a church and you just feel that negative energy, you know, some churches, uh, you know, preach false. Um, you know, preachings. And that's not teachings of God. That's teachings of it's, um, manmade teachings. So, yeah, just [00:41:30] look at the fruits of the, um of the church or yeah, And if it doesn't align with what you think God has, you know, created for us, go to another church. Me? Yeah. I think there's some sense of joy and together being together and bringing people together. It is very strong for me. And it's, um, this [00:42:00] the core of most religions is just, um, just to think about the others as well. No one is less important than you are, um, about being showing empathy to to others and just having this, um, the sense of of being together on this earth and helping each other and standing up for each other. And I think that's [00:42:30] what makes me who I am. And that shaped quite a bit of my personality as well. And I found it through through faith and through religion. Thank you. Um, what do you think queer communities can do to be more inclusive of, uh, people will face? Don't be afraid to question. You know, I think like there are so many things that [00:43:00] people just don't want to talk about or find it awkward to talk about. But I think just sitting down and having a is just so amazing and having discussions. And, you know, learning about things and asking about things and questioning yourself, questioning others. And I think making queer spaces a safe space to do that because I think there's just so many spaces where we already don't feel safe. And I think being able to make the queer spaces stronger [00:43:30] and more supportive to everyone Um yeah, I guess. Just making discussion times, OK? And yeah, I guess just that openness to actually we might not agree on things, but that's OK as well. You know that That's respect and safe spaces and the judgement free and also sort of the jokes, I guess, is a huge thing for me. Um, so I guess [00:44:00] just being careful of where other people's values lie versus what you're saying yeah, you're talking about is is I think a very important factor just addressing the the elephant in the room because we are providing spaces where we come together and of different ethnicities, of different cultures, of different sexualities, gender identities. And we are so open. But there's this [00:44:30] elephant in the corner which nobody wants to talk about, and it's it's often the fact that there's the silence. And we just changed topics because nobody, everyone feels awkward talking about it. And I think we should overcome this feeling of awkwardness and a bit feeling uncomfortable. Yeah, And even when you don't believe or don't say or would say you have no faith, [00:45:00] then that's OK as well. You don't have to. There's no one who wants to. Yeah, no one wants to put their faith on you so you don't have to take it all in. Yeah. Yeah, like, um, that, um, just normalising the discussions and because, like, if you don't know if you don't ask, [00:45:30] you won't know, You know? Yeah. Nothing to be ashamed of. I think just being more open about, um, who you are and what faith you follow. I remember when I was younger. Um, I was probably the only person that I knew of that was gay and followed a faith. Um, but I know that, um the more and more that we have that people rise and say, Oh, yes, I'm gay or yes, I'm lesbian or transgender [00:46:00] And I identify with this faith, the more those discussions have become normal and more other people will rise and be able to say yes, I follow a faith as well, so I kind of feel like at the moment, um, that whole discussion is being swept underneath the carpet. Um, and people feel ashamed to come out and say, Oh, my gosh, I'm Christian, you know, Um but, yeah, just more people being open about who they are. I think it will become more like my sister said. It's like it's own coming out process. [00:46:30] It's another closet on its own. But yeah, everything takes time. So and I think discussions are good because you shouldn't, like, assume things. You shouldn't assume that they like they are homophobic or that they follow everything in the Bible and stuff. But yeah, I feel like I relate to like the elephant in the room thing because, like, say, you're in a queer space. The elephant in the room would be like your [00:47:00] faith, but then when you're in like like a church or somewhere, the elephant in the room would be your sexuality. So it's like trying to balance. Um, is there anything else you'd like to add before we open up the circle of the victims? I just think that we're really fortunate to live here in New Zealand because I've lived in Australia and been so many protests where it's just like, hate, you know, um, messages of hate towards our community. And I'm so fortunate that I live here [00:47:30] and where we're able to adapt to and apply that in our settings of, you know, our daily lives. So, yeah, you know, it's normalised like within, you know, living here. We're able to open up all kind of and I. I don't think it offends anyone. Everyone just knows that that's the you know, that's what we said, Um, before we Yeah, before we start anything. [00:48:00] Yeah, I was in, um, Aussie for like, a few days last year, and, um, early last year and the news was on, and they were discussing, like, gay marriage and stuff and marriage, equality. And they were calling, like being, like, gay and queer and stuff a fad. And it was making me, like, really mad that, like, here, we're like, we've got like, um, gay marriage and stuff, and but there they don't. And we're kind of like cousin countries. [00:48:30] So shouldn't we, like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I'm going, but yeah. OK, so I'm gonna open up the round for questions. Um, Or if you have any experiences yourself of being a person of faith or coming from the background, that's fine, too. Um, I got two questions. Um, firstly, possibly Christoph, Um, [00:49:00] I'm not quite sure how the Roman Catholic system is. Um, but in Austria, do they follow the pope? Yeah. So what's the kind of consensus of the current pope and some of the more lenient, um, kind of changes that he's advocating? Well, I'm quite surprised with the new pope, and I think, um [00:49:30] what he you have to you have to think about the pope as, like this huge institution. He has to change. And I think what he does in his term or what he did already in his term, is quite significant, even when people just see one line, he says. I think it's very powerful, because everything he does has such a huge impact. And like all the bishops in Austria, [00:50:00] they fall. They are, um they are assigned from the pope directly. So, um, in all the dioceses in Austria, the bishop follow what what the pope says and when he reforms things. And there was quite a significant change from the last pope, um, from Benedict to to Francisco's, um Offences and and I think you can see [00:50:30] it in the politics as well. As I said in Austrian politics, especially from the National Party, um, they get advice from the Bishop conference and if the pope changes the line politics change in Austria as well. We are, um, in Austria. The marriage is not open yet, and there are things still to be done, and Austria is one of the Western Bay Forward countries, and, um, [00:51:00] but in the in this sense, we are quite backward sometimes as well. I feel like the Catholic Church is slowly moving forward, though, like since Francis has come into power like they're starting to acknowledge that like homosexuality is real and that there needs to be like things put in place to protect that, like the pope's, um, given the OK for condoms to be used by gay men, which kind of by way gives permission for gay men to be having sex with the church, which is a small step. But [00:51:30] it's a big step for the church, but a lot of people, it seems, it's like, Oh, yeah, he says that. But it's it's quite significant because a lot of that, um, like aid organisations are based on the on on faith. And they come from a faith background like the Red Cross or, um, Caritas or all those organisations who work in these spaces are just yeah, quite linked to the church as well. [00:52:00] Um, And so anyone on the panel, um, how does your faith consider the identity of God? And how is is it like, the same as the sort of most common idea of God's being dressed as he and him [00:52:30] and how? Yeah, like, does that sort of align with your beli? Hm? Yeah, I think so. Um, and our belief he's not addressed as he or she, um we address him as I don't know, um, we don't and and I believe it is forbidden for us to know the actual name of God. So we use terms that translate [00:53:00] to, um, like, who? Which translate pretty much to To God, Not his actual name or her actual name. Uh, it is. It's in within our belief that, um, even the angels have no sex. They're neither male or female. Um, but yeah, Feel free to ask you questions afterwards, because it goes, Yeah, it really? Yeah. What was the question? I felt like that. [00:53:30] And I kind of like, how do you feel about the way God is gendered? Because I think it's just But that's what I've been to. And that's what we're familiar with. So we adapt to, I guess for everyone there's, like, a consensus that he is a he. Do you feel like [00:54:00] it? Maybe. Thank you. Considers masculinity as like, the natural, uh, creation. Um, does it does it sort of prioritise like masculinity on the higher patriarchal? [00:54:30] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, So my understanding is like when when referring to God is like, AAA greater being to a point where, um yeah, it it eventually turned into he. But actually, it says God is good with God was happy. God was, And so there was no Oh, well, actually, I probably need to have a look again. Can't be certain what comes out of my mouth. But, um, the thing is, like, Man was made in his, [00:55:00] um, in his image, but that we are his image. So yeah, so it's like it doesn't matter. We are all his image. So that's my understanding of, um So in terms of he, it's irrelevant to me because, like, if you were to believe that, then you are just a part of Gosh, I've heard had some interesting perspective from an insect person who, [00:55:30] um from the idea that Adam was made in God's image. And then Eve was created from the, um the bone of Adam and the way this person took that was to to see that So God has both this male and female intrinsic to them. And [00:56:00] it was kind of this first human was made in God's image and then separated out into Adam. And so, yeah, that was a just a perspective that I heard. I think another thing around that as well is it's important to take into account the fact that, um, we're reading, um, holy books that come from different traditions [00:56:30] than what we understand in the Western world. Not only traditions, but also languages that have been mistranslated time and time again. Um and so there are projects currently happening that are how do we accurately translate, um, both Old Testament and New Testament? Because remembering that the old Testament, um, are the books of Judaism, Um, and the New Testament are the books of Christianity. Um, how do we accurately [00:57:00] translate those things so that they're actually portraying the the actual meanings? So, for example, when you look at the word Adam in, um, in Hebrew, it's and is was translated as Adam because they're like, Oh, I guess it is the Adam. But, um, often that's translated as human. Um, and so that kind of theory works in as well. Um, the other thing I was gonna say around that is, um if you look [00:57:30] at also language, So, for example, you look at the Pacific and all of our languages we don't have gender pronouns. Um, you know, if you're talking about or you're saying, um, in Samoa, Um, in like in New Zealand, in Maori, it's the same kind of concept, um, where there's no gender of our pronouns. And so when we're, you know, as a Pacific who as a Pacific person who grew up in a in a Pacific in a Simon language [00:58:00] church, um, we don't talk about, you know, give when we're speaking as Simon, we're saying when we're referring to God, you know? And so all of that sort of, um, language doesn't put gender to it. The gender comes in from a western lens that's been imposed from, um, you know, early early churches back in the, um uh, [00:58:30] like, 80 like early eighties early, early time after Christ, Um, and so that the concept of God is male is a human made concept. Um, And it it does have a lot of political bollocks that's impacted on all of that ideology as well. Um, so it's really good to deconstruct those ideas around what is the gender of God. But also, I guess at the same time, [00:59:00] um, God doesn't have, you know, this is my gender, because in those holy books, it's not referred to as God has gender. It's just referred to as God is God and the only Yeah, and sorry. Um, you saw, um, the panel that was in we were here yesterday morning. Um, so I touched on a little bit on religion. And, um, first of all, I just want to say thank [00:59:30] you to you guys for creating this space for us. It is a very important area that needs to be discussed. And I know about a year and a half ago I attended my first sort of event, Sim, similar to this one, just before we, um and I was always wondering when would that come up? And every time I'd write in the comments, what would you like to see? Please talk about religion. Something that we have. It's It's a very new space, like for us to talk about the the blending of both. And, um, I guess for me, [01:00:00] um, it's actually what I noticed during. So it's actually quite scary for me as someone who grew up, um, Presbyterian background enforced by my parents and as a child like, I really liked that space because, you know, that's where I grew up and I was like a friend, you know, you're learning. You've got good stories, colour and the pictures. You know, it's fun, you know? I love it, you know? And then you get to a point where you're like, Oh, hang on. You know, something is like, it's where do I fit in now? Like if you like. And I had this complex [01:00:30] where I was trying to do it because my parents, you know, enforced it and not enforced it, because I enjoyed it. But then I got to a point where I was like, Oh, hang on, Who am I? And then, um, I spent, like, a lot of my years trying to do everything else right, because I knew at the end I would probably disappoint him. But I hope I do enough. And then, you know, I went through the whole try to pray for it to go away. Like I went through all of that stage and it was hard working up Every I'm waking up every morning [01:01:00] and it's still here, you know? So, um and it's hard because, um, we know it's all right. Take your time, OK? No, it's hard when you get to a point like you try. You try really hard to find that space, That space. And then when I came out to [01:01:30] my parents, they reinforced my fears. Like, look back at me like, you know, you should come to church. You know, you haven't been coming a lot. And, um, you should have, you know, you got to pray about it. My dad tried to tell me, um, don't tell anyone. It's a phase, you know? And that's when I was 23. Like, you know, I'm I'm a grown man, you know, But, um, and then when I came into this space, I like Peter and are, like, really good friends of mine and Britney from last year with me. And, you [01:02:00] know, we get along really well, but it's still a scary space for even me to discuss with my really close friends. Because that fear of disappointment, um, like I said, um, I'm very open with, um, give up, give up my notes. You're a queen. Remember that. Yeah, I'm very I'm very open with, like, um, respecting everyone's beliefs. Like I said yesterday like, there's no one way [01:02:30] to do your journey, but It's very hard for me to find that space. Where is it OK for me to talk about that I. I might not necessarily be in that space anymore, but it's like a kind of a scoop of like that will get rejected from us space again. Um, so I just want to say, um, thank you. [01:03:00] Um, I hope we get to talk about more about these things in the future. Uh, I guess this is for the whole panel, and I was just wondering if you guys had any advice for people who asked, um, have family members or feel close to them that strictly follow a religion and how to deal with, um, I guess, uh, when those people, uh, get upset about you [01:03:30] being who you are. Um uh, would you say it would be, uh, better to try to work through things with a person or to, like, go your own way to kind of distance yourself from the person? Um Well, um, the whole of my death, um side of the family is like heavily a Christian. And my uncle is even like a Baptist minister. So for that, I don't really want to be in that environment where [01:04:00] they're, like, putting me down and stuff. So for me, I would kind of distance myself. Yeah, for me, I, I I think like my family is really, like, comfortable, like with me And like, they're really accepting now. Um, but it's taken a really long time. Um and yeah, like for me? Like if something comes up, which I feel, which is transphobic, I'm just like that's not Christian like and, you know, and I like to lead by my [01:04:30] examples and you know, clearly if they feel like, like, for me, I say I'm a Christian, But, you know, both sides of my family are strong moments. Um, and if I feel like, you know, there's they're they're targeting me because they're uncomfortable and stuff. I have to say that's not Christian like, you know, praise you. Praise Jesus. Give it all you know, things like that just to remind them that this is the path that you're going and you have Christ [01:05:00] in your life. This is yeah, like, you know, he gave his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to come to this earth and die for us for our sins. Not for selected people. It's for everybody. So, um, I think, um, according to those who you can trust and the people that you, um who you know, you will You will be there for you. I mean, my dad was Yeah, he he was. It took him, like, years [01:05:30] for him to accept me for who I am, and now he's in a totally different space. But, um, my mom, on the other hand, was really, really supportive of me, And she would always vouch for me, you know, to family members when I wasn't there and they would complain about me bringing my partner or anything. So, um, whoever that support person is for, you cling on to them And, um, you know, if if you can name one person, um, around your networks, that will be there for you to support you, to speak on your behalf, Um, [01:06:00] and those times where you don't feel confident to speak for yourself. Um definitely cling on to people like that because they they will help you through your journey, just like my mom did for me. Yeah, I'm definitely all for like, although they're your family. And you know that I think it's a really hard situation to be in. Um, I also think, like, totally don't change for people, you know, whether that's in a friend group or a family group. You know, like, you know, you're here, you're you. And I think [01:06:30] totally embracing that and loving that, Um and I think it's all part of the journey Is figuring out where you want to sit And as cheesy as it sounds, totally listen to your heart. You know, um, do what you feel is right. Um and, yeah, it's OK to ask for advice and stuff, but, you know, it comes down to your decision, so definitely do what feels right for you and in the moment and yeah, I guess, Yeah, you be patient. I think [01:07:00] it I think often situations seems so hard at the moment, but, um, if you are patient, you will see that after time things change and people just need, um, sometimes shorter time and sometimes quite a long time to to get things. Yeah, and it's a very emotional thing, and especially with faith, it's very emotional, and you can't put it down to just rational arguments, you know, and [01:07:30] people argue with with things they take out of the Bible, but behind it are very emotional messages. And I think what faith teaches is just loving someone else. Like you love yourself. And that's one of the most important lessons for me. And, um, if you just address address this, um, this emotion with your with your family, I think that's a way to go. Yeah, but be patient. Yeah, it's [01:08:00] it's not solved like this, you know? Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Um I guess I'm kind of similar, um, to me and that I have, like, quite a long history with grievances with the church. Um and I suppose my question for you guys that have been through that and had that kind of feeling like you're forced out of the church for being who you are. How did you then overcome that and overcome that pain and that hurt with the church? [01:08:30] And you take that step into going back in and like going back into a place that has not been safe for you in the past. I think what we intend to do is we generalise the whole church. But for me, it comes down to like poor leadership. Because if the pastor, you know, the pastor is not on board with who we are, Um, clearly, the congregation is just gonna support the pastor because the pastor, bishop or, you know, he knows best. But for me, it's like [01:09:00] that's just poor leadership. And, you know, if there's uncomfort of you being in that church, um, for whatever reason, I would just say go to another church because you'll see, like, you know, I know so many friends, like within the Pacifica space that, like, even like some of my family, um, you know, extended family, they're like a part of the church. And then everyone leaves. And they all start building their own churches because they're all having arguments with one another. [01:09:30] Like, you know, it comes down to that poor leadership like, No, because I think this is the right way. And then someone's like, No, I think this is the right way. And like when you think about it, I think that's how churches are built because they all feel like this is the right teachings of the gospel. Um, yeah, So I would just, um, recommend that you just go to try our try all different as well, Like I've had the opportunity to, you know, like for me, [01:10:00] it's like a church church. And if they're not comfortable with me, that's fine, because that's their problem. Yeah, because at the end of the day, you know, you go, you go to a place or you attend sessions like this for your own reasoning. I think I'm a lot like on that. Um, when I went through that whole transition of finding out that I wasn't accepted at school, church and at home, um, it was a process for me. And, you know, it's totally different for everyone at at their own stages in their own path. But [01:10:30] it was a realisation for me that everyone in these different environments and their disapproval of me and my identity was a reflection more so of them than of myself. Um, and that once I realised that I began to, I had this huge 3. 60 where I started to view myself differently. Um, and I started to love who I was. I started to love my body. Um, my mannerisms, Um, the different things about me that I started to accept about myself, [01:11:00] and then in turn, I found others who felt the same. So, um, I kind of come from that place where, like how you feel on the inside, you attract to yourself. You attract what you feel basically so and you'll probably see, like, a lot of people that I really feel sorry for you guys. And it's like, I don't feel sorry for me Feel sorry for yourself, then. You know, your mentality is, but [01:11:30] also like, I think I'm all about the journey, you know, like I think just embracing that journey. You you don't need to rush back into anything either, because it is almost like a grieving process, you know, like there is that loss to some sort of connection if you've lost that connection with someone with a congregation or whoever. And I think, um, accepting that as part of your journey is part of what you need to go through, I think, um, personally, [01:12:00] I haven't yet found a congregation that I'm you know, um, connecting with. And I think I'm OK with that. You know, like my values haven't changed and that sort of thing, and I think it's just being OK that. Actually, when I find the place, I'll know and I can be myself and that sort of thing. So I think it is all part of that learning and that processing of what's right for you and like, it's OK to be selfish. Like [01:12:30] this is for you. This is your values. This is, um, your congregation if it's the right one, you know? And I think, yeah, just embrace it and enjoy it and be selfish. Yeah. One thing for me was very important to start to start the healing process for myself. I don't You don't have to wait for someone else to start it for you. Don't wait until something [01:13:00] start it for yourself and say I want to see this as a challenge as hard as it is and get out stronger and and come out stronger and show a different way to to interact with other people. Yeah, and that's my goal. To show people another way, a different way and always think, Why is this person attacking me? And I always think where is this person coming from? And rather than [01:13:30] see myself as a victim, it's more like I'm sorry that this person had to go through this this pathway to to show their anger and fear by attacking me and yeah, but it's Yeah. For me, the healing process starts within. Yeah, um, so I think it's morning tea time, so I'd just [01:14:00] like to thank the panellists and Remy as well for sharing. Um, such personal experiences. Um, and coming here today. So if everyone could give them a round applause, Um, I'd also like to ad not adequate, that acknowledge that not all faiths were represented here today. Um, so hopefully next year there will be a more wide range of people. But I'll also be posting [01:14:30] up some relevant videos onto the shift page. Um, for people to have a look at, um And if anything has come up for you or you're feeling triggered, uh, we've got, uh, John over here today, or, uh, moon scattered around. Um um, so we just like to close with the kind of really good. OK, [01:15:00] um, [01:15:30] out of my.
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