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Uh, 19 eighties. I was living with my, uh, wife and first son and, uh, living here in lower hut at the time of in our first house and, uh uh, the early part of the eighties, I was with the Territorial Force Unit, based in Paton. And by the time the homosexual Law Reform Act was being considered, I was part of the Ministry of Defence Works Directorate, Um, working [00:00:30] out of the Freberg building, Uh, just opposite parliament. So, um, so I was sort of close to the action, but, uh, not really a part of it, so to speak. Yeah. And, uh, and very much imbued in that, um, binary, normative life of playing the heterosexual male, doing those good soldierly things. And, um, very much in the process of I was just gonna say, discovering myself. But I the only thing [00:01:00] I really discovered at that time, to be honest, is, um, as a young woman, two floors below me, uh, who inspired the name I've finally taken on. So, um yeah. Um, Shelley, I can't remember her last name now. Um, but she was a a rather striking woman. Ham by certainly today's standards of um, a woman. She was a She was a curvy woman, but proportionately curvy and quite stunningly attractive. She [00:01:30] had Italian heritage, so she had that lovely olive complexion. And that typically fiery, uh, Italian matriarchal, uh, sort of temper. She booked no nonsense. And I admired her greatly because of her independence and and her obvious strength and combined that with her attractiveness and style. And I thought, that's who I model myself on with them when the day comes. Were you friends with her? Yes. [00:02:00] We were, uh she'd been, uh, a girlfriend. I guess would be that she wasn't I don't think she was a partner, but she was a girlfriend of a of a of a colleague of mine. Um, and, uh, so that's how I sort of came to, um, know about her. But my job and the administrative job she was doing, even though we were on different floors, required us to sort of cross paths from time to time, So it was a professional interest, [00:02:30] but, uh, yeah, it's, um it was one of those little odd things where, uh um my my attraction for her was and the sense of like my attraction for a lot of women in those in those days was my attraction was for how they represented how I would love to be if I could be a woman. And I hadn't really resolved the fact that I could be at that point. So, uh, um, so I was a I was an interested observer in the [00:03:00] in the homosexual law reform that was was taking place around that time. But I'll confess I was pretty much part of the paradigm, particularly prevailing in the military at that time about, uh, um, homosexuality and the implications that it might have for life in the military. Um, and, uh, it was easy to broke into or buy into the fear, [00:03:30] I guess. And I think that's the right word to use the fear that, uh, that that would involve all kinds of sexual impropriety in terms of and disciplinary issues. Um, following on from that and the way in which, um, we we went about our business. Uh, but the discussions we're having that were happening in the wider community, through the media and and elsewhere, we're having that effect of sort of Ameliorating [00:04:00] some of those fears in a way, too, that there was a you know, what the hell kind of an attitude one of the prevailing jokes was on. You know, it won't be long before they make a compulsory sort of thing. Um, And then while that was a I think it was meant in a kind of a derogatory sense that represented the uncertainty, I guess, and And guys who probably pretended or claim to be hetero normal. Um, [00:04:30] and the fact that you know, they they felt maybe their lives are going to be changed irrevocably because, uh, homosexuals were going to take over the over the military and and change the way we did business or something up. It was It was, as it turned out, to be totally unfounded. But, um, you know when when these things are unknown, Because they've never been part of your normal discourse and they haven't been part of your normal narrative. Um, it does create [00:05:00] fears and trauma. So you were You were with your wife and you had a son. Um, did you know of any people who were, uh, I imagine people in the military were closet at the time. Did you know anyone who you felt was in the closet? No, Uh, that was one of the things II I had. No, I think I felt certain that there must have been, um, you know, we heard about the ratios at, like, one in five. So, [00:05:30] you know, a group of you know, I was commanding, um, a team of about 100 and 30. Um, so based on the ratios, the probability that someone within the group was in some way um, queer Identifying well, queer, not identifying as as the as the system required, sort of in those days, Um, it was pretty high. And, of course, um, I kind of I. I guess I saw myself as being [00:06:00] I didn't see myself as being gay at all. Um, I think I felt entirely, uh, heterosexual. Um, but I I knew I knew I was something. But I didn't really at that time really have have a place for myself, which is a big part of my confusion. And and, uh, so why I played so hard at the male normative role thing, and I think that was safe for a [00:06:30] lot of the queer people at that time. Um the we did have, though, in, um, within the military. A civilian employee, Um, he was a financial advisor. Charles Jones. I'll mention his name because Charles, unfortunately I believe, has passed away. Uh, and in fact, I think I believe he was killed. Um, not so many years ago, Charles was outwardly gay. He was [00:07:00] quite camp, and and he thoroughly delighted in upsetting the hetero normal paradigm. He would, um, because he was of his station within the civilian employees. He frequented the officer's mess, too. And he delighted in nothing more than, um, sidling up to these butch young officers full of themselves and their and their masculinity and, uh, and challenging them on it. And, uh, yeah, he had a great a great way of [00:07:30] discomforting, um, people and, uh and yeah, it was just they didn't have any way of dealing with it because the behaviour was so foreign to to the guys in the army, and it's, uh, the senior officers thought it was fabulous. I'm not sure they encouraged him, but they didn't discourage him either. So, you know, Charles became quite a favourite with the with some very prominent, um, military people in the end, but he he was in a civilian role very much in a civilian [00:08:00] role. So Yeah, there was nobody that I knew of at that time who was outwardly gay. There were some ex service people, uh, who, uh, spoke out. Um, and, you know, these were, uh I think I remember one relatively senior officer, Lieutenant colonel can't remember his name. Uh, but he, um he he spoke [00:08:30] out about, uh, that he was gay, that he'd served his career and that, um, you know, and he'd been in, I think in Vietnam. Um, and, uh, you know, those sorts of things sort of brought down a realisation. It started me questioning, uh, a lot to, um, about, like my grandfather being in the great war at Gallipoli. Um, and just starting to wonder how many how many of homosexuals [00:09:00] and and lesbian, um, identify or even transgender people, uh, went away there, and probably how many of them went away with that underlying sense that that I had when I joined the military, which was just post, um, Vietnam. The idea of taking an honourable suicide that, uh, you know, I'd be the one to lead the charge so that I could go down, You know, rather than pulling the trigger myself, get [00:09:30] myself into a position where the bad guy shoots me down, doing the glorious charge of the light brigade sort of thing. Uh, and where Where? I. I could kill myself effectively. But do it with that didn't detract from the of the family and everything else. Uh, it made me realise, too, in that sort of thinking, how many people must be in the military who have similar kinds of thoughts? You know, suicide takes on various [00:10:00] very many forms and having lived it myself, um, I suspect that, uh, that's part of the reason why a lot of, uh, a lot of queer identifying people who are struggling, uh, to make it outside might actually join the military. And it's a good place to hide. People don't go looking for queer folk in a in an army type situation. Or maybe it was a bit different, but that was almost compulsory there. So sorry. That's just a bit of a disservice, rival. [00:10:30] But you were I was Yeah, II. I was You know, the army was the real grunting place the macho hands on masculine, hard graft type of thing. And then within that, I was engineers, which was sort of the the of the macho, I guess, in a way, um, the it wasn't that we were there shoving bayonets into people and doing everything and all that sort of combative stuff. But, you know, the work we did was [00:11:00] was very physical and and demanding. And, um and, uh, yeah, fit in that same engineering paradigm. When did you join the army? Oh, gosh. I joined the TERRITORIALS. I went on the ninth Territorial Force intake with my, uh, school friend, um, in January of 1975. And, uh, I almost signed up, uh, when I at that [00:11:30] point after completing my territorial training, but, um, I felt a loyalty to my my employer. Pardon me? Um, the work with my employer seem to be tailing away at, and the business I see subsequently sort of wound up or sort of wound down gradually. Uh, and and I was still keen on the military, so I signed 12 months later, I'd signed up and been enlisted into the engineers. So there's like, 1 30. [00:12:00] I think I was on. So did you join the territories? What, about 18 years old or no, I was a bit older than that. Uh oh, gosh. I say 1975. So I was 20 then and then the Army and then joined the regular force year the following year. Um, as a as a 21 year old and, uh, as a soldier, uh, and got involved in a whole lot of activities. Um, and training wise and a whole lot of courses, [00:12:30] which I perform quite well. And that encouraged my seniors to suggest that I might try for some higher station within the thing. So I ended up going away and, uh, attending a regular office, a selection board and 79. I was 1979. I spent, uh, learning how to be an officer, uh, at at the officer training officer training company there. And, uh, commissioned [00:13:00] the end of that year. Um, and the rest is history, so to speak. What rank did you get to? Um, I eventually made it to Major. Uh, I had no, as I didn't really have many aspirations beyond that, um, there was always a fear of discovery that accompanied, um, higher station. Um, it's interesting. I've often thought about [00:13:30] how I treated my fear of discovery of my femininity or my inclination towards femininity, Um, and and why I was so driven by fear. And it's it's intriguing that I wasn't fearful for myself, ever. I don't think, um, I was fearful for those things. Those the sense of shame and dishonour and everything else that I might bring, uh, to all the things I cared [00:14:00] about, which included the military, I really I mean, I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the in the Army. Uh, the opportunities are created for me. Um, and, uh uh, so, you know, and then buying further into that paradigm by having Children and everything else It just sort of weighed ever more heavily upon me, that sort of responsibility. And and so the fear of discovery became greater. The further up the ranks I went, the more scrutiny I was under. [00:14:30] And so while there was an element of ambition, there was also this other thing of saying we hold back sort of thing, and it does make me wonder. Had there been a much more open and accepting Um regime within the military that, uh, that permitted people to be all that they could be, uh, just how much more I might have been or might allow myself to be in there. But it's all conjecture now, so, you know. No, I have no regrets [00:15:00] at all. What would they have been able to discover? Well, I was, uh, all my life I, I I've spent all my life trying to trying to repress my femininity, which, you know, my desire to express. My femininity usually came and dressing feminine. Um and you know, sometimes, uh, venturing out mostly at night, [00:15:30] you know, dark or whatever. Um and and and dangerous places I guess would be the right term. Because, you know, I, I just couldn't because of all that fear, I couldn't go and venture into your local cinema or anything else. And, um and of course, being so fundamentally butcher, I guess, would be the term in that the I could II I never felt that I could express myself as possibly [00:16:00] feminine. So that increased my my, uh, chances of being recognised and and discovered. Um, So, um yeah, um, those You know, those those that need to express myself, uh, would manifest at any moment. There was nothing that I I planned or anything else. It was It was just that that need to [00:16:30] express that femininity would, uh, would come upon me. And, uh, and, uh, I would find, um I'd try and fight it, but at the end, I'd have to I'd have to express it in some way. And, uh, and a lot of those ways would be considered in the normative narrative, um, inappropriate and certainly would have been inappropriate to the military. Um, and of course, that would be exacerbated by the fact that I was of reasonably high station being a commissioned officer. Were you at risk [00:17:00] of being arrested? Uh, well, in those early days, uh, potentially, Yeah, uh, sort of the places I was hanging out, um, I was it seemed that I needed to go where the gay community sort of hung out. What I didn't understand is that really gay guys weren't interested in me at all because of my femininity. Um, but that seemed to be, you know, in my naivety and and everything else, um, [00:17:30] that seemed to be the place to go I didn't I didn't really understand the drag scene, but I didn't. I didn't see that drag community as being being mine. Uh, the interactions I did have, which were few and far between with, um um, with any who were transgender, uh, just didn't quite just didn't quite register with me. Um, and, uh, so [00:18:00] I was I was sort of lost in this in this identity thing. And, uh, you know, I honestly believed for all the time I was in the military, and all the time growing up until I left the military Until a few years after I left the military, I honestly believed that I was absolutely unique. And, um and just some aberration that, uh, that had no, no, like, uh, anywhere else in the world. Who did you talk to about it? Didn't speak to anybody, Something. I worked [00:18:30] out myself and the internet came to my aid. In the end. I, um the internet and, uh, an underground, um, scene, uh, B DS M. Um, I. I linked up with a group, uh, here. When By that time I was living in, um, hut Valley, and I kind of the internet had exposed me to, um, to [00:19:00] quite a lot, I. I I kind of I thought sissy boy site sort of thing might be for me. Uh, and I went into into some sites that I that that were around at the time, and, um, it was interesting reading the forums and and so forth, because all of a sudden I realised My God, I'm not unique. I'm not this one off. Here are people who share the same fears. You know, lifestyles. [00:19:30] They're trapped in a they're trapped in a normative lifestyle with family and everything else. Um, they I, I think, like me genuinely love their families that the families in the world that they created but it was incomplete because of this desire to express their femininity but unable to do that with the people they love because of the the threat of losing and the shame and all those other things that are associated with it. And so we were all living this double [00:20:00] life and all of it, fraught with fear of discovery and and all sorts of stuff. And and of course, in that sort of environment, you live in a you live in a sort of an imaginary world, and and your imagining your imagination takes you anywhere you care to go sort of thing. Uh, so there's a lot of fantasy and and other stuff, um, attached to, uh, attached to the to the, um forum discussions and everything else. [00:20:30] But when you filtered through those things, you could start to start to identify these common characteristics and everything else. And I started to realise that that maybe I was transgender that, um, and reading these articles and how and seeing transsexuals at the far end of the scheme to to the, um the cross dresser who might just enjoy wearing his wife's knickers or whatever off to work, [00:21:00] sort of thing. We're all of us somewhere on a on a scale or a grey scale of of non binary gender. Um, and, you know, somewhere along that way we find our comfort place that, uh, that allows us to express ourselves without, um without compromising other things that might be important to us, to us. Um, but I still didn't feel like I had a place where I could go and do that, and that's I sort of drew into the B DS M scene. [00:21:30] Um and that proved a an unusual, um, and a lot better enlightening experience in and of itself. Uh, I learned the difference between tolerance and acceptance, which is a big part of what's going on in the society even now, I think, um, yeah. What? What do you mean? Um, a lot of people who think they're accepting are actually tolerant, but they don't accept. They're they're still stuck [00:22:00] in either a binary sort of a construct or whatever construct that they that they formed of their world view. Um, they are set in that in that world view, but they will tolerate somebody having a different perspective on things, but they won't accept it. So, um, one of the interesting discussions I and it's not to do with so much with sexuality, But one of the interesting discussions I used to have with, um with people when they started talking this dominant [00:22:30] versus submissive type thing. And there's any number of these so-called dominants who, um who talk about putting on their dom hat and and playing like playing a role. I mean, I, I know we all play a role in life, and in general. But when somebody, when when somebody goes into a scene like a B DS M scene, whether it's a group sitting or play hitting or whatever with somebody else. [00:23:00] And in order to do that, they have to adopt a persona in order to fulfil the role that they want to want to play in that thing. You Are they truly a dominant or are they just a top? And so when somebody would say to me that you know, they put on their dome hat and carry out a performance or whatever else I would question them and say, Well, when you take your dome hat off, are you still dominant? And if they're not still dominant, then I would argue they're not dominant. [00:23:30] They're a top, um, but they don't want to see that, because by being by not being a dominant means that they that they can't exercise that control and so forth that they are looking for. And so then it starts to open up the discussion about their misogyny or whatever else. And, uh, so, needless to say, I didn't make many friends that many friends within the B DS M scene because I asked the hard [00:24:00] questions, and and I challenged them on that the same. Same with somebody who is, um, who might have been a sadist. And and if I say well, you will you play with me And they said, No, I'm I only play with women. I said, But you're a sadist. Yes, I said, Well, surely the canvass doesn't. Doesn't matter. You know, I enjoy pain or receiving pain. So why, Why what? What's your [00:24:30] problem with administering pain to me? If you're a sadist, I'm a sexual sadist. And I would say, no, you're a misogynist. That didn't go down my line. But it was a It was a It was enlightening. It really taught me a lot about people. And and And I've seen those parallels with those sorts of discussions within the queer community as well. Um, and and and in life in general. Yeah. When were you first starting to find those communities? Uh oh, gosh. It [00:25:00] was a long, um, a few years after I left the military, um, would have been early two thousands. I think by then. Yeah, yeah, it was I went Yeah, because I went into another relationship with a woman. Who was I? I'm pleased to say I still haven't attached a relationship with, uh, but my femininity got in the way of that. That relationship? Um, quite quite severely. But, um, Mar? Yeah. [00:25:30] Laura was remarkably intelligent and capable woman, and an had an understanding of what I was going through because she actually took the time to research. Uh, so she understood how I couldn't not do my feminine thing, and she we had an arrangement where she could allow me to, um, express that when I needed to. [00:26:00] But, um, it wasn't enough, is it? I'd started to explore my femininity, and, um and, uh, yeah, I was a little bit like a racehorse in the, um, in the starting gates at that point, and I was ready to bolt. So and, uh, yeah, uh, it's kind of sad in some ways, but, uh, but I'm I'm really grateful that, uh, that I had daughter and her family in my life at that time. Um, I'm sorry for the way things wound up between [00:26:30] us, but, um, but, uh, yeah, it was It was good for me. Um, I think having that having that time and and helping to discover myself, too. And the fact that yeah, it was it was no longer any opportunities to play half games that I just had to bite the bullet and take the chances. Did you find for yourself that the passing of the homosexual law reform legislation and then later the human rights legislation that they [00:27:00] had, that you felt that they had much impact on your life? Not at all. The homosexual law reform didn't seem to apply to me because I still saw myself as as heterosexual. Um, I I don't really find men male, sexually attractive. Um and so for me, it was kind of irrelevant, uh, for me personally in [00:27:30] that sort of context. And but I But I was forming the very much the view that you know didn't matter the role. Mhm. Not so much the role that they had then the role later on, when the Because when the Homosexual Law Reform Act was passed, the military had an exception. And so the the initial passing of the act didn't greatly affect the military, and we just sort of rolled on and [00:28:00] sort of waved our hands at society out there and say, Well, you know, you get on a deal, But we were witness to changes and stuff and and we could see that it it didn't didn't have that horrendous effect on on the way people conducted their lives that, uh, that we we anticipated might have befallen, uh, the military. It was later in the early nineties when, um when the exemption was went up for review and was subsequently rescinded. And, [00:28:30] uh, yeah, that was an interesting time for us for us. Um, by that time, I had reached the rank of major and was in charge of the school of military engineering, and I had a responsibility as a what they called the head of court to represent, um, soldiers within my area. Uh, when we get together and discuss postings and development of careers and promotions and you know, courses and other things that, um, [00:29:00] that people under our under our auspices, um needed to to develop and further their careers. And I part of my responsibility was Wau engineers based in, uh in. And we had a, um um about the time the review was coming up for I think it's second reading So, um uh, submissions were being sought for and against for those subcommittee, [00:29:30] um, discussion. And, um, about that time we had an incident in where, um, one of one of the people that was loosely under my control. Um, my my auspices. Uh, he ended up being raped. He'd, um, crashed out after having a night of boozing in one of the bars and staggering back to his barracks. It collapsed in a drunken heap. And [00:30:00] he was found and, um, in a compromising state and had been assaulted. And so that set up an investigation. As you as you would imagine, Um, and a few days after the investigation was carried out was started a, um, living in single, um, senior NGO was found hanged in his barrack room and the story as it [00:30:30] unfolded, uh, was that that sergeant had come out as gay to his, um, to his family, and the family had disowned him, threatened him with all sorts of, um, repercussions. And so, in desperation, he joined the military in the hope that being amongst these bloke blokes, he would be cured. And I'm not sure how he lived his life. We don't know the personal details, [00:31:00] of course, but he'd succumbed to this particular opportunity. Um, and he had assaulted this soldier and couldn't live with the shame and the dishonour that that had, uh, uh, created for him. This really sad thing was that one of my peers, um, not from another core was, um, using that incident to justify why homosexuality [00:31:30] should continue to be exam should be exempted from or should not be allowed, um, and legalised within the military. And, um uh, he came. He came to my office at the school and, um, and asked me to sign up to this petition and submission that he was He had written, and I refused to, um I pointed out to him that that was ridiculous, that to, um that be [00:32:00] if we didn't have that stupid law, we could have avoided the double tragedy that had occurred. And we would still have two fully functioning, competent soldiers doing good work for our community. And you're you're gonna carry on with that stupid stuff. So I said, no, I'm sorry. That's it. He and I never spoke again after that. I know, but I'm you know, I had no problems with it by that stage. And, um, I get [00:32:30] sad. Yeah, we we I thought we'd moved on. I had when you left, the military was set around when you started to seek out more people or more understanding of what, um, where you were at in the world. Um, well, my marriage had pretty much disintegrated by that point. It was hanging on by a thread, um, for various reasons. [00:33:00] But, you know, we both have had a part to play, and I've realised since that, um, my living that double life that I that I had and throughout that our relationship was effectively me cheating on on her, even though I was cheating with my other persona and and and raising my other persona, Uh, it was in effect. It was just as dishonest as if I was being, um um, you know, with with [00:33:30] another woman or or whatever. Um and so, uh, yeah, um, we'd grown apart quite significantly. And I mean, so I, um So my marriage was disintegrating. I just clicked on almost 21 years, just under 21 years in the army by that stage. And so I, um, I, I thought If I'm going to make a change and do something with my life, then you [00:34:00] know this is the time. And so I got out and, uh, I I looked around, and, um, I'd seen this opportunity with this, um, charter fishing business that had a had a, um a fishing retail outlet attached as part of the setup. And I thought that's something I was really interested in. And, uh, and it's a field that I wanted to get involved in as a charter skipper. Um, so I thought, Yeah, that's I'll push for that. And, uh, yeah, turned out to be not [00:34:30] such a wise choice, but But it was a fun time. I, I, um I had that, uh I have to call her a ship because she was registered as a ship, even though she was only, uh, 10.5 metres long at the waterline. Um, I had I had her until early two thousands was when I sold that, and we sailed it up to Auckland, which was an adventure in and of itself. Have you ever thought of or have you lived overseas? [00:35:00] Yeah. Yeah, I lived in, um I. I was posted to Singapore for, um, for a couple of years, Uh, two years and about three months. And, uh, in Singapore. I think it worked out in the end. Uh, I spent six months in the Middle East. Um, that was the longest duration post, and I had a lot of other short term post spent six months doing a course in, uh, in in Australia. Um, I guess that's living there. Um, and then a lot of other shorter [00:35:30] duration, uh, trips around the world and to other locales. Yeah, all all very much associated with the military. And, uh, yeah, we did have an incident when I was in the Middle East. Um, again, we had a There was a civilian employee contractor who was a He's a Brit, one of the cooks, Um, and he was quite openly gay. Um, but [00:36:00] he'd, um he was a There was a party one night, and I remember he he dressed himself up in a nun's outfit, and, uh, and he had a light arrangement battery light arrangement set up with a light. He could press a switch and he'd have this light flashing about his groyne. You see underneath his nun's habit thing, but, you know, quite visible. Um, and that was a little signal trip that he took. Um, [00:36:30] they went out drinking. There was a lot of drinking done in the in the base camp area that, uh, back then and, um uh, he'd been partying up with some of the Americans at one of the American bars. And apparently he and one of the soldiers went back to one of the others barracks, And, uh, some MP, S or other were, uh, were watching and observed this. So they followed. Followed [00:37:00] them into, uh, caught them in a compromising, um, situation. So, uh, he was packed up and sent back to, uh to, uh the UK. And I think the, um, the American soldier was, uh, faced Anna and summary dismissal. So, um, yeah, yeah, I think that's Yeah. That no back then was in 1986. So no, we [00:37:30] were still we would have had the same sort of outcomes and amongst for any of our soldiers at that time, too, because it was still illegal, for it's still illegal for soldiers to engage in homosexual acts. Where do you find your community now? everywhere. Uh, I find I I found it really difficult to associate with, uh, any of the trans groups, even a gender. Um [00:38:00] uh, in the early days, I I attended a I thought I would try and get some support through associating with agenda. Um, but I went to a barbecue, um, one time, and there was a collection of people here, and, uh, it was there was a lot of politics going on. Um, but there was also this expectation that, you [00:38:30] know, you had to buy into this binary You are. Either, you know, either male or female. You were either man or woman. You there was No, there was no middle ground. And I I had for many years struggled while while I was growing up. It was nothing I would have loved more than to have been, uh, been a woman. And I and I, you know, I watched those old movies with, um Doris Day and Shirley McLean. Gina Lola Bridge. Um, of course. [00:39:00] Um, the gorgeous um Sophia Loren. Still gorgeous. Sophia Loren. Go. I think I knew you were going to say her name for some reason. You just can't avoid it. can you really? But there but there, you know, there was so much, so much glamour and and and I guess that form of beauty around in those days. But But I associated with more with the likes of the Doris Day. You know, I don't know whether if you recall Doris Day movies where where she played opposite, um, Rock [00:39:30] Hudson. Um, but in that in that somewhat comical sort of bimbo, but still competent but cute and cuddly and desirable and and, you know, manifestly trying to please a man, but at the same time, being this competent, capable woman who's raising Children or looking after life and other things in general. And it was that I was I identified well with the sort of ordinariness rather than the [00:40:00] the glamour that that many of the American actresses sort of tended to portray and still tend to portray. I think they don't seem to have that natural grace of and and that natural beauty that the, um, European, um, actresses, um, portray And, um and then I Then I you shooting McLane. But but she was one of those sort of Doris day type roles she used to play and and, um, and the million dollar legs. So I Yeah, [00:40:30] III I had these and I used to imagine me, me being them there was even even later on when we see me staring at, Used to check off at me for staring at at young women. But, you know, I couldn't explain to them, and I'm measuring up what they're wearing as to how that might look on me. So I just had to play the dirty old man type of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all the difficulties playing a double [00:41:00] life thing. Yeah, might make some sense to them now, in hindsight, but, um, yeah, it was, um yeah, those were interesting. Interesting times. II. I I wanted to be a II. I often imagined, you know, when I go to bed at night and sleeping and I often imagine being like Doris Day or like, um, you know, Hayley molls when I was younger, she was one who I you know, I. I [00:41:30] sort of fantasised being, um and, um and and and I, you know, join the military sort of thing. The the idea of being captured and forced feminised sort of thing as part of that where I wouldn't have to take responsibility for being feminised so I could I could justifiably come back to my family and say, Well, you know, this is what they've done to me. But yeah, you know, I like it. So I gotta carry on. [00:42:00] The military was going to do this? Well, no, not the military, but the bad guys, you know, I know it was. I mean, those are the kinds of fantasies, you know. How. How? How? How How could I ever become a woman from where I am sort of stuff And and it didn't seem to me to be any way to do that. And and then, as as I, I guess, as I gone through puberty and and and doing all that macho [00:42:30] sort of stuff, the stuff that's associated with being a bloke. I was diving and playing rugby and drinking an awful lot. And and various other things. Um uh, and smoking like a chimney. Um, so I you know, II. I also had this side of me that kind of enjoyed the bloke sort of stuff. And and so in my binary thinking, it was one or the other. There was no there was never going to be any in between. And I [00:43:00] found that when I started engaging with, um with agenda and the others that there there wasn't any mid middle point. If I was in the middle somewhere, then I was a pervert or or I was, Yeah, you know, I was, Yeah, basically a pervert that I was, you know, that I was in it for for some sexual kick or whatever. Uh, and that sort of spurred guilt, feelings and and everything else. So I, I didn't find soccer in any any groups at all. Um, I basically did it on my own. [00:43:30] Um, but I did have I did run into a friend who hangs around, uh, still in the on the periphery of, um of things at the moment. And, uh, she was, uh, living in a at the time. Um, I'm not sure how we came across each other. To be honest, it was something we did online. We just shared some opinions or whatever. Um, and she wrote a fantastic [00:44:00] poem about I am called I am FM F. I am. I wish I could remember it. I'm sure it's tucked away somewhere and something of a one of my files on a computer, Maybe. I hope. Um and, uh and she became a really a really good support for me. She validated the fact that I, you know, I didn't really have to go. I didn't have to play these these games that these other groups were were pushing [00:44:30] it. You know, there was a middle ground where where you can you can still walk, exist and and and play a value, uh, valued role and and and the community in general. And, uh and so she she inspired me in a in many ways to, um, to take both sides of who I am and, uh, and just exist. But II, I never found myself complete unless I was presenting them. [00:45:00] I you know, I And so the first time I was able to I found myself in the middle of the day walking around and and not passing because, you know, people clearly saw the stuff, but I saw that I was They saw me as a man in a in a skirt. Um but it was interesting because I I knew that if I was going to do this. I had to hold my head up. I. I didn't want to carry a sign around that said I'm [00:45:30] a victim Pick on me. So I had to hold my head up. And, uh and it was an interesting social experiment for me, because for the first time, and and knowing that about me and daring to engage people, that with eye contact, it was they who turned away, not me. And And I realise, uh, you know, I don't have to fulfil some stereotypical role or whatever I can just be [00:46:00] And, um, yeah, that's how it turned out. I used to fantasise about walking down Lampton Quay. Uh, and in the day, you know, broad daylight, um, you know, dressed firm. And, um and the thought of that was was was stimulating and, you know, fought with all sorts of expectation and whatever else [00:46:30] and the first time I did it, um, there was there was nothing sexual or stimulating or anything else about it all. It was a sense of I'm home. Hm. Mhm. Fairly recently. Um, Shelley I. I know that you did a social experiment. Where you, um [00:47:00] put a sign on yourself. Invited people to hug you. Yeah. Do you want to speak about that? Um, OK, yeah. Um I saw a, um, clip on, um, online of a of a guy doing a social experiment in, Um, I think it was in Romania, and, uh, and he put up a sign just saying I you know, I respect you. Will you respect me? Hug me? And he stood there with a blindfold on, and his arms [00:47:30] had come back in a in a busy pedestrian walkway. And, um, and people would stop see what was going on, because it's an unusual thing. And, um, and and engage with them. And I thought, you know, that was that was kind of profound. It was a It was a nice little social experiment. It's it it it demonstrated that humanity that I think is inherent in all of us and that we all want to express, but, uh, we just need sometimes we need an excuse or a reminder about to to go about demonstrating [00:48:00] that, um And then there was the, uh, youth 12 report. Sort of came out, um, a little while after that, And I was, um I was actually prompted to write to the local rag. Uh, an article about, uh, the importance of still, um, following [00:48:30] the old sword takes a village to raise a child that we all, as adults need to have to take take responsibility for all of our young people. And part of that is taking particularly taking care of our of our, um, queer youth. We need to include them and and everything that the in the community on all levels and and it's our adult responsibility to do that kind of backing up organisation like schools out, which presents the youth perspective from the bottom end. And I was trying [00:49:00] to target the adults at the top end and saying, Hey, you know, we can squeeze this into the middle and and achieve a nice little tasty sandwich that, um, of of, of acceptance and tolerance, because I was well aware of some pretty terrible behaviours that have been going on, um, around schools and affecting our youth and many of those stories, many of the much of the information, the stories about the bullying and the other issues that our, um, queer youth and in particular our transgender [00:49:30] youth are enduring were button pressing for me because they represented the fears that I had when I was growing up about being discovered. And the things the things that I feared would have happened to me were happening still, uh, in this supposedly more informed, um, period in our lives and more informed society that these these issues are still going on and and our young people are killing themselves, [00:50:00] the youth 12 report raised some important issues. Uh, and it was the first time that the Youth 2000 series of studies by Auckland um University of Technology has has conducted, uh, where they've included the transgender question and, uh, apparently came as quite a surprise as to the fact that 4% as much as 4% identified as non gender non-binary [00:50:30] conforming, uh, binary gender conforming and um, that of, um, that 2% so half of that 4% identified specifically as transgender uh, which meant that organisations like educational institutes and social support institute organisations and that needed to start paying attention to that reality and adjusting the way they do their business. And hopefully if they're smart enough, changing the way that the language and the narrative [00:51:00] that they use in dealing with young people. But the thing that concerned me is that, um those those sorts of reports and the information they contain generally stay confined within a very limited circle of society that the wider public has not kept abreast of those. And I thought, How can I How can I get this information out there more widely? And, uh And so I went back to this. I thought back to this, um, hug thing. [00:51:30] And, uh, so I decided that I would, uh, emulate that. And so I, um, respect as a I didn't use I use the word honour. So, um, um, I hit it on a couple of levels. I made up one sign, um, which says I honour you. Will you honour me? I hug me. Um oh, sorry. It starts out. I am transgender. [00:52:00] I honour you. Will you honour me and hug me? Uh, I as a part of that experiment, I I pushed the boundary a little bit more, and I put the preemptive and and with, uh, the diminutive and the, um, English subtitles, if you like. So in the in the smaller print underneath. So that was one sign I put I used to the other side and the other sign I summarised the trans the the data from the youth 12 [00:52:30] report onto, um, onto another, another form, and, uh, and summarise that with the commentary that despite all of those negative, um, the negative data that that was, uh, that I extracted from that report that transgender youth are still the most active of sector of that youth community in terms of helping and assisting others. And, um [00:53:00] and so, you know, that's that's putting information out there. And I thought it was a good way to get people to pay attention to that information. I'm hoping to develop that into a into a, um, kind of a documentary. I have a friend who's been filming some of those engagements for me, and, um, uh, we're gonna expand it to ask people after they've engaged with me when I'm doing this, Uh, we're gonna ask people what they plan to do with the information, [00:53:30] because now they're informed they don't have an excuse for not doing anything. And so it's gonna It's gonna be a challenge. And that's and and it'll summarise in the documentary at the end. But, um, you know it. It's just my small way of saying, grow up, people. Be a village. What happened when you first did this? Quite overwhelming. Um, when did I first do it? I. I did [00:54:00] it. It was the day, um, Dan New Zealand played England at, um, at the for the, um, C World Cup. And, um so there was quite a few people and I stood at Middleton Park. I think it was Middleton Park on, uh, on Lampton. And, um, uh, it was bad timing because there was another activity that occurred in behind it sort of overwhelmed things a little bit. Um, [00:54:30] but I suppose I engaged with, uh, 20 or 30 people. Uh, park. Yeah. Um, people coming by, uh, some remarkable, um, quite a remarkable engagements. You know, people would apparently stand and watch. Um, everybody thought I was very brave. I was blindfolded. Yeah, completely blindfolded. I can't see a thing with a blindfold on and standing with my arms spread. [00:55:00] Um, but yeah, a mixture of, um, a mixture of people. Interesting. I had a couple of guys on the occasion I've had quite a few clearly males I could feel from from their attire and the way they they hug me and and from their voices, they're clearly male. But, uh, there's been more than one who has said to me as we are hugging from one to another, Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So it's Yeah, there's, um [00:55:30] there's there's I've done it And I did it. The the Cuba night. I did it outside Scottie and Ms Bar. Uh, that was an interesting experiment. Um, one guy with a group which clearly with a group they'd obviously been eating or partying through the downed Cuba streets. And there was one guy who was struggling to deal with. He was being egged on to do the hug thing with me, but he was clearly uncomfortable [00:56:00] with the whole thing. And in the end, he, um, under pressure, I think, because he wanted to school with one of the women who who just who had hugged with him and engaged. So, uh, yeah, typical typical male. So this I call him a moron because I think it was his way of engaging was to come up and grab me and lift me off the ground and spin me around. So I had no idea. So showing how buff and strong and macho he was but, you know, engaging. [00:56:30] But yeah, there was. There was there was no engagement there. The hugs you can you can feel the sincerity in some of the hugs. There's some some of the women in particular will come up. And you and you, you know, you get a heart to heart hug. Where you you you feel the hearts engaging and and you know there's sincerity in it. Um, some of them feel the hug is, you know, they they feel they're obliged to make the gesture because they've stopped and they've seen others doing it. And you [00:57:00] can feel the distance. They keep a distance even though they wrap their arms around you. But there's there's a distance between you. It's it's palpable. Um, and those are the people I'd like to question as to you know, now that you've got this information, you know how How are you going to deal with it? What are you What are you going to tell your Children? What are you going to tell your partner? What are you gonna do? What are you going? Are you going to go to the to the local board of trustees now and tell them that we have to do more for for identifying youth? I guess that's coming. The full circle back to your questions [00:57:30] around what's tolerance and what's acceptance exactly exactly. Yeah, it's, uh, it it, Yeah, people conflate the two, I think, and they they figure I can. I can tolerate that person being queer so long as they do it doesn't interfere with my life. That's not acceptance at all, you know, And and And that and those attitudes we have to work on and and so on. Um, there's a lot of ways that we can do that, and part of that is this other thing that I'm trying to do at the moment [00:58:00] is, um is take the queer community and give back to the wider community. I think I think the queer community tends to be very introspective, and it looks after itself, which is fine. I don't have a problem with that. Uh, we invite the outer community to partake with us if they if they so choose. Uh, but it's usually only allies and immediate family sort of thing. That that will will take part part in that it doesn't really engage with the wider consciousness of the community. But [00:58:30] so I'm I'm proposing, uh, and I've raised this through, uh, rainbow wellington. Uh, with so with their endorsement, I'm, uh I'm taking a an idea to, um, engage with hopefully with the homeless, uh, in Wellington. It has a double whammy for us in ways that it shows to the wider community that we're contributing back if you like, um, but also because we are disproportionately represented. The queer people are disproportionately [00:59:00] represented amongst homeless. Then it's it's also a a AAA nice way to give back to some of our own, too. And and I just think it's important that we we recognise that, you know, we we queer folk, have for many years not been afforded the dignity of being ourselves. And, you know, we're doing the same. All of us are doing the same queer folk and team included for people like the homeless and other destitute [00:59:30] people. We're depriving them of their dignity. Uh, you know, So we we need I think we need to do more in that sort of regard. Many of my fears in coming out have been realised, and particularly in terms of my relationship with my family, Uh, that's at best strained. Um, and I'm not sure whether or how that might ever be bridged or if it will ever get back to what it used [01:00:00] to be. But my goodness, um, I guess by not aligning myself with any particular organisational structure or whatever else that I've been able to embrace, uh, a really remarkably diverse range of people and, um, and being me now, the person I am now, uh, has brought so many wonderful people in my life, and I'm grateful for that.
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