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So, um, I was born and bred in and, um, did a commerce degree down at Lincoln College, which was a very sort of, um, bastion of mail. I don't know what, but it's an interesting place to do a commerce degree and basically arrived back in Auckland, Um, and, um, at the age of 21 and started a career in property, um, management, valuation and consultancy. So that's my kind of original [00:00:30] career as a in the twenties. Um, Then I It's kind of interesting how it leads into hero, because I I worked in that area for about, um, seven or eight years. And then I, um I'd actually come out of a marriage, believe it or not. And, um, And then I fell manly in love with Michael Palmer. And, um, I decided to go to shift to Wellington and manage Michael's dance company [00:01:00] because he was in Wellington at that time, and I decided to, um, cut up my credit card. I was on a fairly good income in those days. I cut up my credit card through my kind of, you know, consultancy, property consultancy job, and turn off to Wellington to, you know, run around on a push bike and manage a dance company for a quarter of the income that I was earning up here. So it was kind of an interesting introduction into gay. Um Well, uh, you know, into kind [00:01:30] of a more of a gay lifestyle, an arts lifestyle and an event management lifestyle. I just want to rewind just a wee bit and pick up on that. The idea that that that you were married and then kind of come into the kind of, um, a gay relationship tell me, how did that how did that happen? Um, look, it's it's, you know, it's It was just sort of like it was what It was the early eighties that I left university. [00:02:00] So I think I, um, came out of university in 79 or 80 or something like that, and it just kind of I just kind of led. I just I just fell into a relationship with a woman that just led to staying in the relationship that lead to marriage and without being, you know, fully kind of thinking or conscious of who I was. Just let let let life just unfold without being rely deliberate in terms [00:02:30] of who I was and what I wanted to do. But it just, you know, within a period of time I realised that, you know, I had to either, Um, I I had I had to leave this relationship and and, you know, and be who I am or go mad. So I, um it was quite interesting because I was working. Um, and I I was I was actually leasing two double seven, which was one of the first shopping centres in in Newmark. And I was a leasing agent there, and I met a couple of gay guys, [00:03:00] um, who were opening up a cookie shop, and I realised they were gay. I was probably the first gay guys I actually knew, and, um, and I was kind of questioning my whole sort of scenario around being, you know, being in the marriage of being gay. And I said to Darryl, I said, Look, if I ever needed to, um, escape and get away, can I come and stay with you guys? And Darryl said Sure, not a problem. And there was literally, like, two nights later that I just I just basically declared my situation to my to my [00:03:30] wife and got out of the car, got in the car and went to Darryl's. And I remember being in a car, and I remember being completely overjoyed. Um, I was devastated in terms of you know, what? I had what I was going through and what I was putting someone else through. Like it just that was that was pretty tough, but realised that I felt like I'd, you know, I'd I'd I'd been released from something. What age were you then? Probably 26. So I was a late starter, but [00:04:00] it was tough. It was on the toughest periods of my life. Um, Darryl, um, and his partner were incredibly good to me. They, um they let me stay with him for, like, three or four months. Um and then, you know, I just started recreating my own life from there. So can you paint a picture for me of what it was like to be, um, uh, recently out gay man in the late 19 eighties in Auckland. Ok, so so So when I came out, I was in my late twenties and, you know, I, I you know, I'd left a marriage, so that was pretty [00:04:30] traumatic. Um, and I was, you know, trying to discover myself. Um, and I do recall, you know, there was there was a There was a really nice bunch of guys that I fell in with, um who You know, um, were really supportive I. I found it. I found the transition quite hard because it was it was moving into an established sort of, um, group of gay guys that had their own humour and their own way of operating. And [00:05:00] and And? And I remember going to the first, um, dinner party with these guys there was about there was about eight of them, and I was just like, I came away being quite terrified of the whole situation because it was really full on in terms of just the the banter and the conversation and stuff like that. And it was something I really not experienced before. And I at that stage, I did question what I was doing, but, um, but the the gay life thing was pretty much, you know, about friends and coffee and dinner and stuff [00:05:30] like that. There was no Internet back then. You know, There literally was. No. Um well, there was no Internet, and, you know, I think mobile phones were there were big bricks at that stage, so you didn't really have a mobile phone. So you you know, your your social circle relied on making just friends and and going out for coffee and dinner and stuff like that. It was quite different. Um, and it's probably Yeah, that's how I found it. I didn't that the community [00:06:00] didn't seem too large. It seemed quite a small community. Um, and you kind of you did kind of feel that you probably knew most people in the community or or knew a lot of people in the community actually felt quite small to me. But whether that was true or not, I don't know. Do you think there was a greater feeling of community back then? Absolutely. There was, you know, back in the back. Then, um, you know, the a little [00:06:30] bit further. Just a couple of years when, after I came out, HIV started to emerge worldwide in New Zealand. And, um, you know, law reform had only just been approved. And so and and to come out was a huge thing for people to come out of work was a was a significant step. Um, so, you know, we all sort of we all sort of took strength from [00:07:00] strength from one another, one another, And we all looked after each other and looked out for each other. So, you know, we talked about community all the time, and, um, we operated as a community. And, you know, there were there were, um a lot of gay guys who probably didn't have a straight friend. Um, you know, they they they they operated within the gay community. Um, a lot of us did have straight friends and girlfriends and things like that, but there are a lot of people who just a huge [00:07:30] amount of focus, but just within the gay community. And I think that was absolutely fine. How did your family and friends, uh, react to you coming out? Um, I. I really had no problems coming out once I'd come out. Um, you know, um, my father was fantastic. Um, Mum was a little bit sort of. She took a while to get a head around it. Um, but she was fine after a while. Um, and my friends didn't really have an issue with it, so I never [00:08:00] really had a problem with that. It was interesting I hadn't had hadn't had. The only discrimination that I really think I've ever experienced in my entire life was when I was I was working, um, for a, um for a pretty big, um, property company and another property guy in another firm offered me a job and he was a gay man and had A And I had a gay partner, and I knew that he offered me a job and I declined it. I didn't want to go in that direction. [00:08:30] Um, interesting. A week, a week after that, after I declined that job, he phoned my boss and complained about me and told me, told my boss that I was gay. Now that was the only experience, and he was a gay man. So it was kind of like there was some real kind of, like, strange stuff going on on this, And he was I think, you know, it was almost like a little bit of a kind of a a revenge thing going on. Um, so that was kind of interesting. Um, but That's to be honest. That's the only, um, kind of [00:09:00] discrimination that I think I've ever experienced as being a gay man. How was it to be able to work like that? Um, it was quite difficult because I had only just come out like it was literally six months. Um, after I'd come out And, you know, I was still trying to deal with, you know, the the trauma of, you know, leaving my wife behind and recreating a new life. And, um, all the rest of that goes with that and and then having to sit down with my with my boss, and he confronted [00:09:30] me with this issue, and he was very good. He said the thing with for him was that that, um he was a real kind of team manager. And it's like, you know, these sorts of things shouldn't be secrets amongst a team. Um, so he was only coming from that angle. Um, so, you know, I was quite impressed with his angle. It didn't really cause me any problems with them. Um, I was just a bit horrified at a gay man outing me, um, in that way, because I'd basically turn turn, turn him down for a job. [00:10:00] You mentioned HIV and AIDS, and I'm wondering what was your first? Or can you recall your first, uh, knowledge of of HIV and AIDS? It's It is quite hard to recall now because it wasn't It wasn't like a, um you know, just as a a gay man out in the community. It wasn't like there was a a deliberate, defining moment that bang, this is what this is about. There was just some, um, [00:10:30] articles and some news stories coming out from, you know, places like San Francisco saying that that, um, gay men were, um, dying and no one knew what it was and they were trying to find a link and stuff like that. So there was just this sort of It was like a slow tide coming in. And, you know, it was hard to I can't actually recall when I went Oh, my gosh. What was what's going on here? I do the thing that the the most vivid thing in my memory was seeing a billboard that, [00:11:00] um, New Zealand AIDS Foundation had been created by that stage. Um, and there was this and I called it the Grim Reaper billboard. And it was a billboard of a actually of a man laying in bed dying from HIV. And he was completely emaciated. And it was, you know, it was a horrible, horrible image. And I think I remember seeing that billboard, and that really startled me thinking, you know, OK, this is this is kind of here now, um, and [00:11:30] but a lot of us, just we we were just leading our lives, you know? And we didn't know anyone that was positive. And no one was, You know, um, dying at that stage in New Zealand whilst it was happening fairly regularly in In, In, In America and other places. Um um, but when I remember seeing that billboard, I thought, OK, this is this is this is this is really for real. Um, and I think that was, um that was late 1980. Um, yeah, late 19 eighties. [00:12:00] There wouldn't have been too many years before. Actually, people did start dying. What was that like? Um uh, particularly, I think in the, um, you know, 1991 around that era. So when I, I really you know, when I went down to Wellington and lived with Michael. Um, that's when it really started to kick in because Michael was HIV positive. And, um, there are some interesting things we did. [00:12:30] Michael is doing quite a lot of media there, and there was quite a few stories that were happening. And, um, 60 minutes to a story on Michael and I and, um and I remember the they asked a question, and we were actually Michael and I, they did the interview and we were in. We were sitting on our bed, for goodness sake. I don't know if we're in bed or sitting on our bed, but it was kind of a strange place to do to do one of the interviews, and and the interviewer asked her, And she she basically accused me of putting myself at risk [00:13:00] by being in a relationship with Michael Palmer, um, and and Michael being the very smart man that he is turned around and said, Well, it's actually safer for Scott to know some to know his partner's status. Um, because then he can protect himself. So, you know, Michael Michael was very kind of onto it in those days. In terms of um, understanding the politic of HIV. And I learned a lot from Michael and that area, but it was kind of like it was kind of that was kind of confronting the The big thing when we went down to Wellington is that [00:13:30] Michael had a, um He established a support group. Um, he was part of a support group. I think it was. They had those 10 on 10 or 12 on 10 groups, and so there was about 10 or 12 guys that he was good friends with that were all positive, plus other friends of his that were positive. You know, within three years of me leaving Wellington, I would say eight or nine of those 12 guys were dead, and we were basically going [00:14:00] to a funeral every 2nd. 3rd month, we were visiting friends in hospital on a regular basis. Um, and they were just, you know, they were They were beautiful, young, fantastic men that were just dying. Um, and, you know, I can recall a friend of ours. Um, he was a lovely guy, and he was probably 27 and he ended up in hospital and we were doing a roster with them in terms of [00:14:30] just, you know, keeping them company. He didn't seem particularly sick, and we were all really exhausted. We all went out for dinner to, you know, have a have a break from it. And he died when we were at dinner, and the phone call was made and what was interesting is like, um of the dinner party. Eight of us were there. There was probably about four or five other guys who were HIV positive. And I turned around and I looked at them and I you know, the the utter desolation on their faces [00:15:00] because they were staring their future in their face in terms of what was what was where they were going. Basically, um, it was just, you know, it was that that was heartbreaking in terms of seeing that it was very sobering. Um, but that's how it was. And and that in itself created a you know, a much stronger sense of community. And, you know, we were all in this together, and we're all, you know, finding ways of battling it. Basically, um, [00:15:30] the other, you know, the other, the one of the one of the one of the New Zealand's most unsung heroes is a nurse, Um, Linda, who was the HIV nurse down in Wellington at the time? Her and Kylie. We became very close friends and, you know, still friends with Linda and Kylie. And, um, Linda and Kylie just nursed so many gay men and other other other guys that were, um, HIV positive for other reasons. Um, [00:16:00] and, you know, they they just they were extraordinary. Um, Linda, you'll never get. You'll never be able to talk to Linda about it. She's one of those people that that's what she did for 10 years. She now she now works for medicine, San Frontiers and works in in places in Africa mainly now and does amazing things that but you know what she used to do? She would go and live in in in the homes of gay men and nurse them until they died 24 7. It was extraordinary work. And that's what that's [00:16:30] what some people were doing. It was unbelievable what they were doing. Hm. Can you talk to me about the the kind of cumulative effect of going to a funeral every couple of months and and what that did to you. You had a, um You had a perspective on life that, um, was you've got to go out and really live this life. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't. I remember thinking this is You didn't were mucking. You went [00:17:00] messing about in life. You know, you've got to go out and and do something, have fun and and live every day. So there was kind of a bit of a fatalistic view in some respects. Um, and it sharpened who you were and what you did in life. Um, it really did, like, you know, um, I remember having a conversation with Michael and and, you know, we we had this bet that it wouldn't be fabulous if he lived till to the turn of the century. Um, Michael [00:17:30] is still alive today. Um, but at that stage, you know, we everyone had a sense that that they might have six or eight years, and they just went out and and live that life. Um, as best as they could. So it did sharpen life. You just got on with it. You you know, you didn't kind of worry you too too much about the future in some respects, you just you just live your life as fast as as hard and as well as you could. What was it like for you being kind of thrust [00:18:00] into the public spotlight? So, like that? That that 60 minutes interview with Michael It was interesting because, um, Michael was a pretty extraordinary man. Like, you know, my first experience of Michael going down to his place is that he had he had this house that every available wall had a bookcase on it, and there was books everywhere, and he'd have He was reading, like, a dozen books at any given time And his knowledge around, um, [00:18:30] you know, writing and music and dance. And it was just extraordinary. He'd spent a life of just immersing himself and and literature and dance and music. Um, and it was an eye. It was an eye opener to me. It was It was, you know, completely out of my kind of, You know, I've lived a very sort of middle class upbringing with parents riding horses and all this sort of stuff. And and seeing this whole kind of arts world emerge was quite extraordinary. Um, you know, and I and I saw that, you know, I saw the the [00:19:00] the the the the pain and challenge that Michael went through in terms of creating huge dance pieces within, like, 14 weeks. And, um so look, you know, I I with with Michael, he was always doing media. And because he was this, he was, you know, he was not only because of his dance work, um, but because of who he was in terms of someone that was a real Viv of HIV. Um, so, you know, I just I just went with [00:19:30] it, and we just had the view at that time that, um, you know, he was a really good, um, not role models. Not the right word. But it was good inspiration for HIV HIV people out there that you can actually still get on, and you can still lead your life, and you can still do stuff. And then it was OK for, you know, a, um HIV negative person to, um, have a life with an HIV positive person. So we just had that political view and we just got on and did it, [00:20:00] you know, you just you just it just it just it just just dealt with what was happening at the time, You know? So one of the initiatives in the early nineties was from the AIDS Foundation was, uh, the hero festival. The hero party. Uh, I think it was originally kind of came via Rex Halliday. Can you Can you tell me how you got involved in or or your first time with hearing? Um, [00:20:30] so I I was I was just coming back from overseas, and I was I was I was. All I was aware of was a party down at the at the rail yards, and, um, and II I was given a ticket to it, and I went along with a few mates and we just and we just basically danced, danced all night with 1200 to 1400 men. And there were a number of, you know, great sort of shows at the party. Um, but I was That's that was my sole experience [00:21:00] and awareness of hero at that stage. I didn't really, um, understand, hero a lot more until till the next year. And so then the next year. So? So in the so after that event, Basically, I, I went and had a chat with Rex Halliday and said, Look, you know, I'm you know, I've I've got a little bit of experience in event management, and I've got a fair bit of experience in the corporate world. Um, and just, you know, I'm really interested in what you're doing and wanted to volunteer for this, um, moving [00:21:30] forward and Rex and And what was actually happening was with Hero, um, was that basically hero came out of NZAS prevention team, which was primarily Rex Hall, you know, and Rick had this extraordinary vision and, um, around the community and he was, And from what I understood at the time was that after the Grim Reaper campaign, they basically realised that they actually needed to create, um um, an event, a community event [00:22:00] that celebrated being gay, that it wasn't useful for everybody to sit in the mire of death and whatever, Um, and and Rex's vision was to actually, you know, to go out and celebrate being gay, but have a lot of safe sex messages going through that celebration and that event so that it was a really interesting model in terms of, you know, creating a party or whatever it was, but having safe sex message, because then you actually get everybody [00:22:30] coming along enjoying themselves. Um, but really experiencing a safe sex, um, message other than, you know, seeing it on a on on a on newsprint or a condom pack or a poster. So it was more of a live experience of, um, HIV prevention. So I I chatted to Rex and he said, Look, we've got a part, a party coming up at Princess Wharf, and he gave me the role of party coordinator. And, you know, all [00:23:00] I've done is, you know, managed a few dance parties for for for Michael palm of it. So I had no idea what I was doing. Um, And I said, just you know what you do when you're young. You say, Sure, I'll do that. So did that. Luckily, I had, um, a couple of great lesbians and Angela Mayne and Kath Lewis, who basically were the party managers. Um, and they were really you know, um, those girls were fantastic. They knew, [00:23:30] you know, they knew how to, you know, put together a stage and put together a P a system and put together shows and all that sort of stuff. I sat just over the top of it and just just managed all the more of a a higher level. Um, Rex will, obviously, you know, Rex was obviously hugely involved at that stage. Um, but, um, that was an interesting exercise. It it was quite funny because, um, Michael came up and, um, Warwick was doing this [00:24:00] wonderful production. You could see how wonderful it was. And it was It was, you know, it was it centred around, you know? You know, the hero. And there was two people in that, and there was Michael and another person, and Warwick invited me to be the other person. Um, you know, with Michael because we were in a relationship and stuff like that. So I thought, Oh, that might be interesting. And and I went on that we went to a, um, to a studio area to actually start, You know, um um, basically putting down some performances around it [00:24:30] because it was a It was a It was a you know, it was a journey, and I think within 10, 5 or 10 minutes, Michael and Warwick both realised that Scott was not cut out to do this at all. And Scott had realised that within 30 seconds of of trying this and then they kind of they sort of afterwards, they had this sort of, like, embarrassed conversation with me about Maybe you should just concentrate on the party, Scott, and we might need to find someone else. I was totally relieved that they were They'd got to that view because, um and then that's when they [00:25:00] got me to to be the opposite to my court. So that was kind of funny. But, um, you know, that that party was that party was pretty extraordinary because I think we had over 3000 people at that party and the actual the show that you know what brought his show? It was on the ground. It was up in the air. It went on for about 15 18 minutes. So it was a long production, and, um, they were flying people through. There [00:25:30] were Amazon woman. There were, you know, Michael and some drag queen doing, um, Freddie Mercury ca ca monts um Barcelona. Or it was just an extraordinary celeb celebration. I think New Zealand, when New Zealand hadn't seen nothing like it. Uh, it was. And I remember that party. One of those fabulous things we did at that party was that we had, um we had a a water pipe going at top across the roof. And I can't [00:26:00] I can't recall why we had that water pipe going across the route, but it had a it had, you know, holes in it. So it was drizzling water. Well, the place to dance for the rest of the night and that and that whole venue was underneath the drizzling water, and everybody was dancing on the water. Everybody was soaked to the skin, you know, they were just they were just soaked, and you couldn't You couldn't get underneath that that pipe because it was so crowded. Um, because it was a hot night. It was a very hot night. Um, and, um, you know it. It was it was a fabulous party [00:26:30] that that party, how was the party? Um, kind of staff. I mean, was this like AIDS foundation staff? Or was it volunteers? Look, there was a huge, huge, huge volunteer component. Rex, you know, Rex Rex's vision was that that it needed It was an HIV. It was a community event with an HIV prevention measures, but it it it was to come out of the community, and he involved large numbers of the community. You know, it [00:27:00] was extraordinary what he did. Um, it couldn't have happened without the community, because it was, you know, it was run by the community for the community. It was just It did need something like NZAF to fund it and sit behind it so that, you know, the bills could be paid. Um, if need be, um, and need an organisation like that and behind it, But, you know, mainly run by the community. What kind of effect did that first hero [00:27:30] have on the community? Oh, it was extraordinary. It was just, you know, we you know, it was in the magazines, you know, there were, you know, there were photo spreads and stories about hero, um, in in north and south and and all those magazines and it was just It was just like this lightning bolt of, um, celebration that we could do something really, really amazing and have a really good time around it. Um and you know, it was it was it was. I can't underestimate [00:28:00] how probably important it was in terms of, you know, celebrating. You know, gay and lesbian culture, who we were. It's really interesting with those kind of events. How that energy can ripple for for, for for years. Yeah, I you know, I think that the that that party and that and that show of Warwick and Michael will, you know, will always stay in [00:28:30] people's minds. Who attended that party was huge. So we've had hero one hero two. What are the ideas kind of floating around now? I mean, is it just an idea of getting bigger and bigger and bigger? Um, after hero two, which is in 92 the the NZAF and Rex were very clear that it actually needed to to the ownership really needed to, even even though the ownership needed to move into the community even though the community [00:29:00] basically were the driving force behind it, with Rex guiding it, um, there was a trust, um, that was set up, and it did move into the community. So there was a trust and a board, and Bruce was the chair of the chair of the board, and there are. You know, there were about four or eight other board directors. Um and so it it it it it transferred fully over the community. That was kind of a really interesting stage, because, um, [00:29:30] R and NZAF had let it go to a certain degree, and the community had taken pretty full ownership of it and and and absolute financial ownership of it and legal ownership of it. Um, and the the event to me, this is where all the kind of different politics came into effect. The event, to me was the the primary purpose of the event was a gay and lesbian celebration with a with a safe sex me message [00:30:00] there. What? Actually, I think happened over time. We had we had a few areas of tension with NZAF following not Rex, because I think Rex had left, um, NF that stage. But they still saw hero as as its main purpose of a as a HIV prevention campaign. Where where I and and I can't speak for Bruce, but, uh, but but I felt that the main reason for it was about, um, community celebration. [00:30:30] And there need to be a strong safe sex message. so they actually they actually, they actually ended up being some fairly quite a few years, a few areas of tension with, um, with the hero project and NZAF because they're always wanting to have AAA, um, a stronger, safe sex message. Even though we did have safe sex submissions, I really thought it was more about a celebrate a celebration of the community. So, um, it it actually did change quite a bit from that Because and then when you introduced the parade, well, [00:31:00] then it really came about a public celebration of community, because at the at the time, it was just a pretty much an internal celebration for the community. And then the parade took it, you know, externally. Basically, um, So, um, it started changing. You know, um, after Hero two started that the the for me. The event started to change quite quite dramatically at that stage. So when and and how did the parade come about? Um, [00:31:30] the parade came about, um, and, um, in the third, um, in the third sort of 93. So it was the 3rd 3rd hero. And, you know, we were all conscious of, um, gay parades in San Francisco and Sydney and places like that. And we just thought, Why not do this? Um, so we just decided to do it. Um, And, um, we decided that we'd make the biggest statement we [00:32:00] possibly could, which was on Queen Street, obviously. And, um, I employed, um, Simon Shaw, who lived down the road from me as, um para coordinator. And, um, I think we had a budget of $16,000 or less. And, um, we had such limited knowledge of event management. Um, it was it was spectacular, spectacular [00:32:30] in its naivety. Um, we didn't have any barriers on the road. I'm not sure we have had AAA major traffic management plan. We just We obviously, we had to get a from council. They didn't I don't think they had any idea what we were doing. Um, um, but, um, we just went ahead and did it. Um, And we you know, we just hired some rooms somewhere. We We had a budget for about what we wanted to do right from the start. Is we? We We We were very clear that we wanted [00:33:00] we wanted it to be glamorous. Right. Um and so we wanted to have at least six floats that had great lighting. Um, great music, you know, great shows going on, um, and all those sorts of things. So we had we put money into those for about six shows, and we invited people to actually apply with a concept and say, you know, tell us what you want to do. So you get someone like me coming on and wanting to do something or you get, um you know, some of the drug community come along and do something or whatever the case may be. [00:33:30] And then we just chose the six, and we gave them a budget and the way they went, um, and then anyone else could put something else in which they did. You know, the marching boys would do something that came a couple of years later, or or whatever. Um, but we had we had enough money to make to have the big the big, the big, flashy things. Um, so that's how we did it. And and, you know, I remember going. I remember. Just go going down to the first parade and coming down and thinking, What are these people doing here? you know, [00:34:00] there was. I think there was, like, 10,000 people at the first parade, and I was kind of, like, shocked and horrified at how many people would come down to this. I thought we were just kind of doing this ourselves. I'd never been to a gate parade parade before, so we were kind of walking into this. I felt like I was walking into it a bit blind, and, um and it was fabulous. But the weird thing was the people with crowd control, you know, when the parade started, most people were on Queen Street. They went on the footpath. So the parade had to kind of cut its way through [00:34:30] the crowds because there was no there were no barriers anywhere. So it was just It was, you know, I. I was lucky. I was lucky no one wasn't killed or injured on the first night, you know, um, but it was fab. It was fabulous. It was fantastic. And, you know, after that night, we realised the potential of it. What we could do, um and and it It was kind of hilarious that first that first night, because obviously some counsellors had had gone along and saw it. And then dear old um, Colin [00:35:00] Hay Was it Colin Hay? And he was obviously horrified because one of the first one of the one of the lovely, um, one of the greatest, um um, trucks that we had there was the leather truck. And, you know, these guys were there and, um, and their leathers and they were, you know, they were whipping each other and all that sort of stuff. It was a great it was a great float. It was fantastic. And, um, I remember, um, I think it was, um Must might have been a week [00:35:30] later or something. And he was kicking up. Let's think about it. And the media was there, Um, and what they did is at the time at the Civic, there was a show on called Much, Much Ado About Nothing. It was, you know, it was obviously a Shakespearean play, and they were interviewing Keith Hay and they started. They started the interview with a shot of the billboard for the show, and it was like, much to do about nothing. And they panned down to [00:36:00] and asked him what his problem was with the hero parade and he went into all this, you know, Dire tribe about, You know, um, it's not a family show. This is a family street, Queen Street. It's disgusting what was going on. And you know, all this debauchery and, you know, homosexuality and all this sort of stuff. It was just We I we just sat in front of TV and pissed ourselves. We just laughed, you know, hysterically. We laughed on one side, and then we were offended on the other side, you know, it was like it was it was kind of we realised [00:36:30] that we were under attack. It was obvious that we were under attack by right wing Christian folk. Um, but then we also the sort of potential of actually getting so much more media exposure to hero through someone like Keith Hay. And so we used that every year we use that going forward, we totally expected Keith Hay to come out and try and block the he the hero parade or stop money to come to the hero parade or whatever. And that [00:37:00] just gave us an entree into media to publicise it. And I think the media actually I remember the media one year saying, um, how much free time hero would get through Keith Hay. Um and so we used that. And we also were, you know, obviously, um right, not offender is not the right word, but we were, you know, we're battling right wing bigotry and prejudice. Um, and because we, we our our, you know, for us, [00:37:30] the battleground was Middle New Zealand that we actually wanted them to see that, you know, you know, we were a community, and we were We were a bit risque and a bit out there and all that sort of stuff, but we were making no apologies for that. It was interesting after the first parade, because, um, there were some people in the community that were also were concerned that we were a bit too out there. You know, um, and there are There is a little group started up in Auckland called Strangely normal. And there are gay [00:38:00] and lesbian group. There are only about two or three of them in there, and they call themselves themselves Strangely normal, which I thought was pretty hilarious at the time. Um but they were trying to lobby us to try and tone us down in terms of the parade going forward. And there was a community meeting at one stage, um, there and strangely normal were represented there. And there are a few people standing up saying, you know, this is there's some people from Wellington and they're saying when I one guy up and saying when I go [00:38:30] to work, um, in Wellington and I'm and I think he worked actually in in in government because I it's really hard for me to, you know, um, justify, you know, pushing the gay, you know, gay rights and anti discrimination laws and stuff like that. When you do that sort of stuff on Queen Street, you're you're setting us back by years and years and and then you'd get you'd get everybody else standing up saying, Don't care, you know, don't care about what you're trying to do in Wellington with your political masters or [00:39:00] whatever the case may be. This is who we are. This, you know, we're going to do this. So there was a debate going in. I think the majority of people were on the side of this is who we are. We're gonna go out and lead our lives like this. And the thing with us from who in the management of her is that we went into censorship as long as there was no, um, nudity, as long as there was no sex happening, Um, pretty much you could you could go out and do what you want. We had lots of [00:39:30] discussions at board level about simulated sex. Whether that was legal or not, we actually went and spoke to the police aro around where they sat on simulated sex. And there was actually it was it was a grey area, and I can't really recall the details of it. Um, but it was that that was a grey area. They couldn't tell us whether that was legal or illegal. So we just said, OK, you know, we we we kind of coach people who go to just be a little bit careful how you take [00:40:00] the how far you take this. But we did. You know, we did. We we did check the floats as before. They started at the start of the journey the following years to make sure there wasn't anything in there that we thought we could get into trouble with the law with and they never They never really was. So we went when we weren't about to start creating censorship and saying, You know, you can do this. You can't do that. It was a community event. We didn't We didn't feel we had that right. And the first parade you were saying was 1993. [00:40:30] Yeah. The first play was 1993. Yeah, they were hard work. You know, We had small budgets. We didn't know what we were doing, but they were fabulous at the end of the day because, you know, the community just got right in behind it. You know, we would open the workshops, I think, like, you know, a month before Christmas. And we just get dozens of people turning up, you know, sewing things, you know, sticking glitter onto stuff and sequins and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, they were just wonderful places to be around. [00:41:00] Um, and we just did. We did a lot for very little, you know, very little budgets. Um, as I said, the first pray cost us $16,000 I think by memory, and, um, you know, we would go out and we would find truck drivers. You know, big, beefy, straight truck guys that have AAA big truck that would, um, drive their truck for us the night for nothing or the cost of the petrol for the night. And they would go to the light companies and generator companies, and we would, you know, big steal and borrow [00:41:30] and get them as cheap as we can. Um, and then we you know, you find material for nothing. And we just did everything on the smell of an rag because the budgets were really small. You know, we we you know, it was really hard making the budgets work in those days. Basically, the way the Senate was done was that the the party, the profits from the party were there to fund the prey, which then fell into the festival because I think we introduced a a kind of a umbrella festival a year after as well, um, we saw the opportunity for the festival in terms of [00:42:00] having three weeks of, you know, um, anyone that wanted to basically put on a, um, an event. So, um so that was the model was the party, um, funded the parade in the festival. The problem that we started to run into is that, um, the parade started costing more and more money every year because the council just said this is dangerous. We have to actually start putting barriers in place. They started costing money. Um, and the council was never forthcoming with cash. Um, [00:42:30] they did provide some in kind support, so they wouldn't charge us for street planning, or they wouldn't charge us for this and that. But, you know, it was pretty bloody. Um, it was pretty mis miserable on their behalf. Um, the festivals weren't particularly expensive. We just needed a festival coordinator. And everybody was, you know, it was an umbrella festival. So everybody was responsible for their own costs. Uh, things like that. So we did a lot on very little, um, but, uh, you know, the budgets [00:43:00] used to keep me awake at night all the time because, you know, there was one year that we made a reasonable loss. I think it was about 20 or $30,000 and we had to, you know, we had to some very generous people put their hands in their pockets and put out some cash and and and carried us through. The next year, we managed to recoup that and keep going. And then after that, um, we managed to keep pretty much, um, neutral budgets every year and, uh, right up till I left. But that was hard work. You know, Um, no [00:43:30] one was paid very much. We didn't, You know, we didn't spend a lot of money. We were always We were always big stealing and borrowing. What was the idea of having the parade at night time? Because things like, say, the pride parade in, say, San Francisco is is a daytime event. So having it in a different time would change the feel and the mood. Oh, we just, uh you know, we just we just knew that, um, you know, a a night time parade creates an atmosphere [00:44:00] that is so suited to a gay and lesbian parade. I do not understand day parades. It's a completely different model to a night parade. So a night parade you can have, You know, everyone's coming out at night, so there's a party atmosphere. There's there's lights. You can do so much with lighting in terms of the shows on the on the parades and the music is, is there. So it's It's a complete evening type event. It's a very different type of event. It's a show event, so the parades [00:44:30] are more about the shows. You will have groups marching and stuff like that, but it's more about the music and the shows. There are daytime parades. It's quite often more about a political statement and that sort of stuff. Um, so we always wanted I always I always wanted a night parade, and I'm pretty sure the board always wanted a night parade and there was just no choice around it. We would never do a day parade because we wanted to, because we were We were at that stage where it was It was about, you know, having fun and and, you know, it was a you know, Yeah, it was. That was what that's [00:45:00] what it was for and you could. Having fun is magnified by 10, um, in the evening, and also we realised that people coming to the parade who are watching the parade would then go on and celebrate afterwards in the bars and the clubs and stuff like that. The straight people, that sort of stuff. So it would become an event in itself. And that's what it basically turned into. As you know, um, you know, 100 odd 1000 people coming out and watching the parade in the evening. And then, um, [00:45:30] you know, Queen Street Road just going off and one big party on all night while we all went, went out and partied ourselves. What was it like for you personally? Um, having never seen, uh, say a pride parade before to actually witness that. That that first time, Um, there's this photo, and I wish I'd kept it. But there's this photo and express, um, after the parade, and it was of me, um, standing on the street with this kind of kind of dumb look on my face and [00:46:00] it just it it it it did basically express. I was like, it was almost shock. Look on his face. I was standing there going Oh, my jaw was kind of like on the ground because it was just people everywhere. Um, and it just, you know, it did kind of it was, you know, and I was kind of like in this little bit of a party outfit. So I was It was That's, um that's it was a great photo, cos I was looking like I was just looked like I looked like I was in shock, and it was we were We were kind of like, Holy man, what do we What have we created here? So, [00:46:30] um, yeah, cos we didn't I I'd never been as I say, But that year I went over and looked. I went to went to Mardi Gras and looked at the parade there and and realised that we'd done the right thing and but also realised that the the future of what we could actually create ongoing here, what can you compare like Sydney Mardi Gras to the hero? What? What were the similarities and difference? I've got a unique perspective on that, because after I left here, I, um my partner and I went over to Sydney, and I, [00:47:00] um, I was head of events for Sydney Mardi Gras for two years until it went broke. Um, so I, um, I managed the event team, so I managed the, you know, the party and the parade and the festival. So I got a kind of new perspective. Sydney. Mardi Gras was a massive organisation, and it was highly political. We had a lot of politics and hero, too, but it was a massive organisation. Um, but there wasn't, you know, to be honest, there wasn't a lot of difference other than scale. [00:47:30] Um, you know, we had 100,000 at our parade, and we had some fabulous events. Um, And at at Mardi Gras, you had 800,000 at the parade, and you had, um, 3000 participants. Um, and it got a bit long at times where you'd stand there and you'd you'd think I'm halfway through. I'm kind of over this. Um, so it was just really about scale at the end of the day. Um, you know, and and Mardi Gras has had a had A had a very long [00:48:00] history, you know, it it it was born out of, you know, the the, um the, uh 1987 where, you know, some some gay and lesbian people walked down the streets protesting, and, um, the police broke up the protests and threw them in jail. So it was born out of a very strong political statement, Um, and that, you know, it was a fabulous event. It was just a much bigger scale, much bigger scale than what we were doing. But I You know, I think you know, I. I think Auckland could hold [00:48:30] its head up high in terms of what we were doing in the nineties in terms of the party and the parade and the festival. It started off in Queen Street, and then it moved. Why? Why? That was my call, to be honest, because, um, what we were trying to do is, um Queen Street was a little short. It's about 1.3 KS and we were getting so many people on that was getting really congestion congested. And also, we were trying to increase [00:49:00] the sponsorship of the actual event, and it was really hard to make this thing financially work. Um, and also, Queen Street didn't have a lot of bars and clubs down there at that stage, so I looked and thought, OK, here's Pons road, 2.6 kilometres has a whole kind of, um, bar scene. It is the heart of the gay community. Pons at the time, Pons, you know, a lot of people. A lot of gay lesbian people lived, lived in Pons, and there was a potential for a lot of other businesses to maybe support the prey. [00:49:30] So there was this three or four good reasons in my mind to shift the parade length party atmosphere afterwards and, um, more sponsorship. So I made the call. It didn't go down well with a lot of people. It went down well with a lot of people, Didn't didn't care that it was fine. But I can remember a, um a delegation of I think actually, there is a lesbian delegation coming to the board, and, um, they accused me of sabotage and selling out commercial [00:50:00] interests and a whole range of things you think I'd, you know, murdered their mother or something. Um, but we just you know, I just I My sense of it is that that poncy was would would would be a great place to have a parade. So we took the call and made the decision and went to Ponsonby, and and they were their argument. I could understand their argument. Their argument was that if you got to make the biggest political statement, you make it on street and totally agreed with that. But I felt that we'd [00:50:30] we'd already made that statement that the the parade was so entrenched in terms of getting media and Keith Hay coming out every year that that wouldn't change if we went to Pons Road and it didn't change. The media still came out. Keith Hay still came out. It didn't matter. So and I think I think that was the right choice to make to go to What? What year was that? That would have been, I think we did two years in in Queen Street. Um and so that would have been [00:51:00] in 95 I would say. And we went to We went to Pons Road. Talk to me about the, um, inclusiveness of the event. I mean, we were talking about lesbians, gay, transgender. How inclusive was hero in those early years. Um, it was incredibly inclusive. If you wanted to do something, you could It was just like it was an open door policy in terms of, um, gay, lesbian and trans transgender people. There was a slight [00:51:30] issue with bisexuality going on. There's a slight politics around that, um I remember it was discussed at board level and stuff like that. And there was some representation from bisexuals who wanted, you know, to have a greater involvement. And I can remember some board members saying, let them let them create their own bisexual parade. So there was some politics around that, Um, but, you know, um, that was the only kind of thing that kind of set a little bit a little bit out a little bit outside. [00:52:00] But, you know, it was you know, everyone was involved, basically, that wanted to be involved, um, and wanted and had their own message or their own agenda or their own Whatever. Um, so, you know, it was all just a big, a big kind of family. I can't say it was always a happy family. Um, but it was always a big family in terms of the people that were actually volunteering or participating. What? What was the kind of makeup of of those groups in terms of, you know, lesbian trans gay? It was It was It was every [00:52:30] person. It was a really cross section of our community. Um, it was a huge cross cross section of our community. There were a lot of HIV positive men involved because a lot of HIV positive people at the time, um, couldn't work. Um, so, you know, because of the health issues, But they could come along and sew something in the at at the workshop and and and, you know, do 34 hours work and, you know, help and that sort of stuff. So we actually had a lot of gay men who were [00:53:00] on benefits because they had to be on benefits because of ill health. That really kind of kicked in for the three months leading into the parade. And they were They were just fantastic. Um, so you know, and and and and And, you know, the drag community were highly involved. The lesbian community were were fantastic. They really saw an opportunity there, and they they really helped, um, so and old people, young people all over the place. Yeah, it was everybody. What were those workshops [00:53:30] like? Oh, they were fantastic. They were They were we Once again, we go out and we be beg and steal a a venue somewhere, like, literally try and find a an unused venue for, like, three months and give them, like, you know, $1000 and and 22 cases of beer. Um, but we just you know, we just set them up and there'd be a, you know, the parade office, and and they just we just There were just a hive of people making things, creating things and all that sort of stuff. And but there there was kind of hard [00:54:00] work and stuff like that. Um, you know, and And there was lots of things that would get in the way. And, you know, we always had these. I mean, we always having these conversations with all the volunteers, right at the start, just saying, Look, if it if it seems a bit tough, just put yourself in the night of the parade and imagine how fantastic it is and just work backwards and you'll get there and we and they did, because there's always there's always there's always problems. You know, when you do a event like that with so little money and all volunteers, there's always there are always problems [00:54:30] and difficulties that you had to deal with all the time. It wasn't easy. You know, it's a lot of work and a lot of people did a lot for very little or just the love of it. And you had to rely on that. I always remember. And I was saying to myself that every year I'd build up this team of people with, you know, pray Director, festival director, party director, uh, the, uh, the editor of the paper and all all this team. And then at the end of the thing, you just dissolve this entire team, and the next year you would start again [00:55:00] and and basically start again with Sometimes you get people from the previous year coming over, but often not so you have to recreate it. So it was like you were recreating an event every year, and that was, you know, that was fairly challenging. It was hard. You know, You really had to a lot of energy, I. I would I would say I'd be burnt out at the end of every every at the end of every, you know, I'd go. I'd basically take 66 weeks off and just disappear. Um, but it was it was not easy, but fun and and, you know, hugely rewarding [00:55:30] but hard. You mentioned that the parade was a lot about celebration. And I'm wondering, how did the AIDS Foundation respond to something like the parade? NZAF responded well to the parade. As I said, there was a There was some areas of tension around, um, that they thought that hero was Its primary function was around a, um, safe sex, um, education campaign, where? Where? [00:56:00] I thought and my board thought it was around a celebration of gay and lesbian community and that we'd always have a strong HIV prevention measure. And there were some times we had some quite, um, heated discussions with some of the, um NZAF staff around that issue. And we used to have every year every year we used to try and design a new theme for Hero, and we'd have these kind of workshops, and NZAF would be there, and they'd always be trying to get make the theme to be a HIV education thing. And [00:56:30] it would. It never never got off the ground because a it wasn't what hero was about B. It didn't really work for, um for lesbians because it wasn't such an issue then. Well, it wasn't an issue for them, so, um they were, you know, the the I think they I think at the end they saw us as being a, you know, a little bit problematic. Let's talk about some of the themes. What what were some of the themes of the parade? The themes, the themes were, um, [00:57:00] you know, it's interesting with themes. The themes, uh, we're different every year. Um, and in some respects, I'm I'm looking back. You know, the real theme was just gay and lesbian celebration. We didn't actually need to actually create kind of sub themes every year because I actually looking back, it doesn't Doesn't really work, you know, the the the hero brand in itself was strong [00:57:30] enough to just run the event as it was. So whilst we did create themes, if I was doing something like that again, I'd just basically go with the hero brand and what it meant for people which was just celebrating gay and lesbian culture. Um, so it's something that you know, I. I think it it it it wasn't that important. To be honest for me, could we maybe just look at some of the floats and some of the participants that were in the parades. And could you just describe some [00:58:00] of the potentially, like, uh, organisations or groups that were involved and and Yeah. So you had things like the marching boys, um, themselves And they would you know, they would be three or four really great guys out there that would just create this event and get 30 of their mates to mates to come in and do that. I. I was a marching boy one year, so I thought what the hell, I'd do it. It was it was a hell of a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. Um, And [00:58:30] then you'd get, um, you'd get people like I remember 11 of the most one of the most fantastic floats that ever went down Queen Street. Queen Street was, um, a drag queen by the name of Victoria, Um, who passed away a few years after that. Um, Victoria was just kind of famous in in New Zealand. She was she was extraordinary. Vitoria, um, was actually a partner of Bruce Kilmister. Um, and, um, Victoria just created this wonderful flat bed trip. What was just just [00:59:00] dazzled and white light. And she had about eight boys that walked along the float who had faux cameras, and there was her and another drag queen who just did the catwalk thing. And they had all these cameramen just taking photos of them. And it was great news at great lights, and they just they just stomped the catwalk and there was things like that. And it was just, you know, it was a very simple float. And it was it wasn't that expensive, but it was just, you know, it was it was [00:59:30] pretty fantastic. Um, then, you know, there were all the other different sort of, you know, me always did a float every year. Um, there was always a leather float coming through. They were They were They were just a collection of people just just organising it themselves and making it happen. Were there any floats that shocked you? No. Never talk to me about the the size of audiences. So you started in 1993 with 10,000 people. How does that kind of escalate? [01:00:00] Uh, I think it up to probably about 30 or 40 the next year. Once the word had got out and once Keith ha had given us all that publicity for free. It was fantastic. Um, and we you know, he came back again the next year and said, We can't have this down Queen Street again. It's a family. This is a street is a family. Um, and then when it went to Pons, it I think it ballooned out to 80 to 100,000. Um, thereafter it's always impossible to get a count. Our counts are always twice as high as the police counts. Um, and and [01:00:30] Keith Hayes count was always lower than the police count. So, you know, there's a whole kind of politic wrapped up in the count of the hearing of of the of how many people attended the hero parade. Um, but they just kept ballooning. Um, and, you know, at that stage in Pons Road, we'd, you know, we'd gone to the expense of having barriers and stuff like that, which obviously we need to do to keep the place safe. You know, I do. You know, I do remember 11 parade where in Pons Road, where people just started getting on to the all of the yawning and the [01:01:00] roofs and stuff like that, and there was just, you know, there was a We had a lack of security around that, and and and Millie's and on three lamps, um, veranda collapsed. And there are people going to hospital, including a policeman. So, you know, it was it was it was kind of There are things around that that we, you know, we really didn't understand and appreciate, you know, until I actually went and worked at Mardi Gras, where you basically had security people [01:01:30] at every at every shop, stopping people from climbing structures so that they wouldn't injure or kill themselves. So, you know, we were always behind the eight ball a little bit in terms of the prey in terms of the the fast it grew and what we needed to do and the funding of it. And it became problematic because the parties kind of got to about 5.5 1000 out of Green Lane, which was producing good money. But then the parties started to to to decline in numbers each year by only by [01:02:00] about four or 500. But that was some revenue that we didn't have to throw at the parade or the, um festival. So you know what you were getting? You were getting increased costs in the in the festival and the parade because we had to and we were getting a declining revenue in the party. And sponsorship was really a struggle. We had some good money from, um, Dominion Breweries. But around, you know, we had alcohol sponsorship back in those days, and we got a we got, we got we got some money from [01:02:30] Creative New Zealand, which kicked off. We really got the festival going one year, and I mean good money. I'm talking about $15,000. Um, and we're we're always scratching around to fund it. We always break even. Um, one year we had a loss, but after that, we were always pretty much broke even. But that was because everybody did everything for nothing. What about media exposure? Did that kind of increases as the Yeah, the media exposure just kept going. What? I always thought about the media is the media [01:03:00] always. I always felt that it was a bit funny. The media always I always felt the media were completely on our side and that they struggled to be objective. Um, and with what with with Keith and stuff like that. And I remember one parade. I was down at the, um, the morning of the parade and I was down. Um, it was down down at the workshop, and, uh, someone from the media rang me up and it was pouring with rain, [01:03:30] and he rang me up and said, Oh, just issued a press release saying that God's wrath is on the hero parade and is sending it by way of rain. And and he just He said that And then I just I just said nothing. And then he just started laughing and he just laughed. And then I started laughing and he said, How do you want to respond to that? So I always had the sense that they just thought it was an absolute joke what was going on with Heath. But it was really amusing [01:04:00] reporting, and they always kind of like reporting it, and but they were always on our side. But they always had the struggle in terms of being objective or whatever they had to do in terms of their own, um, journalistic ethics. Um, but, you know, I thought the media was fantastic. Um and, you know, we got lots of articles, and, um and, you know, we got we got the TV three. support eventually in terms of doing, you know, the, um delayed, um, show that I think we did. I think we did it. Johnny [01:04:30] Gibbs put it together, and the night after the parade, that was fantastic, you know. So, um, media was fantastic around that. You know, the gay community never been people. New Zealand had never seen the gay community. And in that way before that that I I can recall seeing that on TV. And, uh, you know, what a fantastic experience to actually see the parade on TV in prime time. What did that do for the parade? Um, it it [01:05:00] it was It was extraordinary. Getting that exposure and to see, you know, to go back on Sunday and just watch the parade for us was just It was just magical. Um, it just continued to give us, you know, um, more exposure. It didn't actually lead to more sponsorship. You know, organisations were pretty wary of sponsoring gay and lesbian events, and hero had a kind of a reputation at that stage. So I suppose if you were a brand out there, you might be a little bit nervous about [01:05:30] associating your brand, um, to the parade. Um, Dominic Brewers were very good. They they but they they never associated with the parade they associated with the party because they were obviously trying to get alcohol into the party. Um, so they always provided money, but it was it didn't lead to any increased sponsorship. It just gave, you know, and we heard stories that you know of 14 or 15 year old boys at home watching the parade and thinking, Oh, this is fantastic. And I'm gay. And you know, there is a There is a life out there if if I want [01:06:00] it, You know, um, so it was It was great in that respect. Um, yeah, it was great. It was like a validation. Getting on TV like that was 1997. This was when it was televised. Was that your last? That was my last year last year. And why did you kind of we had done it for five years. Um, five or six years. And I just felt that, you know, it was I felt you know it. It felt really hard letting it go. But [01:06:30] I you know, I knew at some stage I'd have to let it go That that someone else should needed to take it on. Um and, um, and that, you know, So I just chose that time was the time to go. And it was, you know, it it it was it was hard work. It was, you know, it was putting on an event like that for the money and that it was It was damn stressful. There was always, you know, there was. It was blooming hard work, and I'd I'd probably reach probably burn out to be quite frank at that stage and felt that I needed something else [01:07:00] and something different. Would you like to comment on the kind of slow demise of Hero after that? Look, I only stayed in Auckland for about two years afterwards, and then, um, I moved to Sydney, so I didn't really, you know, I got I got some reports back from people back here about what was happening. Um, you know, I think, um, you know, one of the biggest things that we did well was that we managed the budgets. You know, we really managed [01:07:30] the budgets tightly. Um, because, you know, you can't do anything without money. You can't continue to do things if you make losses. So, um, you know, I you know, I, I really kept tight control over the various budgets. Um, so I really I you know, it was it was I think, you know, I think for the first two years after I left it, the the it went along. Fine. Um and then I think it fell into a a financial hole in in 2000. [01:08:00] I suspect, if that's the timing's right and look at they were probably up against it, I suspect party would be continuing to fall and costs would have continued to going up. Their only way out of it at that stage was to really try and get some serious sponsorship involved. Um, and that probably would still, if I was still there, it probably would have been My My challenge as well is to try and keep managing the books with increasing costs and probably falling revenue. The sponsorship was the only answer, and I suspect they were still struggling to get there. Um, you [01:08:30] know you. You know you can't. You can't operate an event without money to that. Why do you think something like the Sydney Mardi Gras has been able to succeed where something like hero has flourished and then kind of way. So Sydney Mardi Gras had its own, you know, city Mardi Gras had If you go, if you go there, their parties are enormous. Like the party. When I was working there, Mardi Gras itself, 25,000 people in sleaze was 18,000 people, and they were charging [01:09:00] 120 bucks each. So the parties and themselves were bringing in revenue of about $800,000 to a million dollars in revenue that would fund the parade and the festival. Um, so there was a much bigger scale. There was a lot more money. And there's a a Very There was a very big party scene in Sydney where in in Auckland there was a smaller group of mainly men who would want to go to parties. Um, and we just couldn't sustain [01:09:30] that level of, you know, that that party, um, support also had financial support from the council. Um, and they had some significant sponsorship. So, um, but even they, you know, they got themselves into trouble. What? They that was interesting. What they did is they kept on pulling money out of the party and just throwing it at the festival. That's what that's what was their demise. And they never built up many reserves. So, um and, you know, we all you know, it was in the second year that I was head of events. Now I could see [01:10:00] that what was happening and and the board just wasn't They just kept throwing money at the festival, and then they got a They had a dip in sales. Also, they had this real drop in sales and and all of a sudden they were in trouble, and they were they basically went insolvent. Um, but they you know, they they got out of that, um, and there was a struggle for a couple of years, but they got out of that. But once again, you know, there is a big party scene over there. There's a big population, and and the the economist scales [01:10:30] allow allows them to fund a parade and festival. Um, you know, that's the problem back here. is that we don't have those re revenue streams to fund a parade like that. And until we get revenue streams for river stream revenue streams like that, I think it'll always be a struggle jumping ahead. Tenish years. And we've just had the first pride festival in Auckland 2013. Uh, what are your thoughts on that? And compare that to a hero? Well, [01:11:00] I have to confess, I never went to it because I was actually overseas. I was away on business, So, um, but I you know, it was interesting, I. I came back in 2004, and I think he I was still kind of doing. It wasn't there wasn't a probe they was doing doing still a bit I. I was very firmly of the view that the brand should have been put to bed at that stage. You know, I, I you know, I you know, I think they when you made those huge losses, I think the brand [01:11:30] you'd buggered the brand basically, and I think the brand should have been just let to rest and, you know, just celebrate the history of the hero back in the nineties, to be honest. Um, so when I saw its Revi revival, Um, I was kind of, you know, I know, um, Minister Kay was involved, and there was 100,000 from council, but I was concerned, and I'm glad they didn't call it hero. Thank goodness I I'm I'm glad they didn't. They didn't do that. But [01:12:00] I You know, when When it was a daytime parade, I thought, you know, this is not going to be anything like the last hero, and And that that could be something it doesn't need to be like. That could be something different. But then when I also heard that there is a family kind of to be a family perspective on it, I thought, Well, that's, you know, it's just basically, um, succumbing to the funders, basically, because the funders didn't want to have anything, um, controversial. [01:12:30] And I and I, my viewers stuff them, You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't have done it to be honest with having those sorts of overrides in terms of who we are. Um, I. I know you need funds to do it, but, um, you know, you come from the place of your own heart of community, and and you allow that expression to occur? You start putting, um, restrictions [01:13:00] or constraints or whatever on that, and you just you're not gonna get a a true engagement of the community or expression of the community when you start overlaying that sort of stuff. I think it's always going to be difficult reflecting back on your time with hero in the nineties. Uh, what? What? What to you are your proudest moments with with that, you know, II. I remember. Um [01:13:30] oh, there were There were lots of great moments in terms of the feeling of after the parade and after the party, the parties were fabulous. Our parties out at Green Lane were wonderful. The shows were fantastic. Um, they just they they really went off as a as a term that we used to use, you know, we we one year we brought Frankie Knuckles over, which was just, you know, people in Sydney were saying, How on earth did you bring Frankie Knuckles to your party? And Andrea and I managed to negotiate, [01:14:00] You know, Frankie Knuckles knuckles was the DJ in New York at in in the nineties, and Andrew and I managed to negotiate. Um, I think it was first class air fares for him and his partner, which we got at a very cheap rate through Air New Zealand with no fee. And he came over and he just said he he would do it for us, and and I remember when Frankie Ackles started up and he just I've never heard a DJ play like him before. He just he he bounced the songs off the wall, and the place [01:14:30] just for his set was just extraordinary. Um, that was a That was a That was a wonderful moment. Um, when we had the big council meeting around, um, the hero council said, You know, there's lots of controversy around this. Let's have a meeting around this And then, you know, the meeting council meeting office rooms of 200 people had to be put into the town hall because so many people wanted to go to it. And Bruce was the chair at the time, and he says, Well, you better [01:15:00] write a speech for me around this and and I, I don't regard myself myself as a creative writer, but I remember sitting down thinking, OK, and I drafted out the speech in about 30 minutes. It just kind of I was in this kind of zone where it just went wham and it just came out. And it was just all about who we are and what's important to us and and and all this sort of stuff and gave it to Bruce and Bruce. Read it and just just he had this big smile on his face and says, Let's [01:15:30] go And we walked into into, um into council and and And he delivered a speech and every second sentence sentence. People just stood up and just cheered and clapped and and yelled. It was just like it was this wonderful kind of like statement and Councillor. I just cos just most councillors just didn't know what had hit them. That was a pretty extraordinary moment coming out of that. Um, yeah, [01:16:00] those those are two big moments. The whole thing was, you know, it was a real journey. Um, I don't want to. It was it was it was a real journey. And just and the the friends that you made and you know the things that you did with people were fabulous.
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