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The Queer Avengers came from the queer the night march that was held in June in 2011. Um, we had a massive turnout for that. I wasn't involved in the organising of that. I was just an attendee to it. Um, but it was a response to a number of incidents that had happened, um, homophobic, violent attacks against people in and around the Wellington region. And, um, a group of people wanted to get together and say that's not acceptable. We want to do something about this. [00:00:30] And I think probably about 600 Wellingtons turned out, which is pretty impressive for a freezing cold middle of winter night. And, um, we made our way from Oh, now I forgot the name of it's gone for me. That park down by Papa. Uh, not not quite Waitangi Park, but that general area, anyway. And, um, up to Courtney Place and along to, um, Cuba Street, where we had some guest speakers and [00:01:00] stuff. And then, um, there was a feeling that people wanted stuff to keep happening and they didn't want it just to be a one off event. So the following Thursday, um, the people who had organised the march had arranged for people to get together at the trade Union Hall on Vivian Street. And again, a massive turnout there must have been The whole foyer was filled with standing room only. So there must have been close to 60 70 people in there, which was amazing. [00:01:30] And, um, from that the crew Avengers grew out of that, we kept meeting weekly, um, to really have a voice give a voice to people who felt that well, Wellington was not a safe space for them at the time and wanted to do something about that. But of course, from that developed a lot more actions and stuff, but yeah, just initially, it was just a response to the unsafeness of Wellington [00:02:00] and people wanting to have a space to get together and try and do something about that. Do you have any idea as to why it was unsafe for queer communities around the 2010, 2011 period? Not particularly? No, it was just I don't know. It was just for some reason whether I don't know if anyone ever got arrested or caught in response to it or anything like that. I don't know if it was a group of people doing [00:02:30] it repeatedly or different individuals. I have no idea. But for some reason, they just happened to be a spate over a short period of time of people getting attacked, going home from the gay bars and just going about their daily business and and, uh particularly, um, trans people, Um, but, you know, that's not changed. It's still an unsafe space for trans people. So right, Yeah. I don't know why if there was any particular reason [00:03:00] why that was the particular period that it happened Or maybe it's just that the media was paying attention to it more at the time, and so we were more aware, aware of it happening. So maybe that was the reason behind it. Rather, rather than, you know, maybe it still does happen. It's just we don't hear about it the same way. Maybe people are too fearful to report it. Or, you know, who knows? Yeah, II, I guess. Just thinking of the media because this was also at the time when things like Social Media [00:03:30] was just starting out. And so yeah, that's true. Yeah, I guess maybe people were more connected in some way. Yeah, that would That would have played a part for sure. Yeah. Where did the name Queer Avengers come from? That is one of our, um, moments of, um, pride and joy, because, um, it took us a long time actually to come to that name. And, um because the way the group operated, we were very, um [00:04:00] there was no leaders, no hierarchy within the group. We wanted to make sure that that was a thing right from the get go. And we just discussed it over a several week period, several weeks, and, um, it just we just came up with it. There's all sorts of strange things thrown around, all sorts of funny things thrown around and silly things and completely inappropriate things. I think maybe there was an Avengers movie on or something. And it Yeah, it just [00:04:30] it rose up by itself, I guess. Yeah, which was kind of nice. And you were saying that, uh, there was no hierarchy. Can you describe, um, how the group was structured, How did and and how you came to that kind of structure? Well, the meetings just we would sit down, um, in a circle for our meetings. We have in a in a space. We'd sit around in chairs and someone would either say, Oh, I'll chair tonight or we you know, can you can you chair tonight? Um, and then [00:05:00] someone else would, um, keep an eye on it would just, you know, you put if you wanted to say something, put your hand up because we were We know at the early stages we were having 30 or 40 people turn up. So there's a lot of people to try and monitor and get to allow because we wanted everyone. Often when people get together, that number of people, you'll get two or three voices that take over. But we wanted to make sure that everybody had an opportunity to to speak. So, um, one person would be cheering and another person would be taking [00:05:30] note of people putting their hands up. So try and stick to some kind of reasonable order, and, um, it just worked. We just It was just something that we we wanted it to work, and it it just did. And it was really useful for us because it meant that Everybody got to say, Say something. But it also meant that people felt they could, but they were more engaged. If you could go along to something like that and you knew you would be given a space to be heard, [00:06:00] you'd want to keep coming back. Because if you go somewhere and you get shut down all the time or you never get a chance to speak, you get fed up with that after a while. And we were having a lot of young people coming along, so I think that was quite a powerful thing. I hope it was a powerful thing for them to experience that that that you can run a run a group like that without having someone being the main speaker or taking charge all the time or yeah, and [00:06:30] you're You're saying that you know, 30 40 people turning up That suggests to me that actually, a lot of people felt that they weren't being heard or that they didn't have a voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, it's kind of interesting because I have heard over the last sort of year or so more people saying they wish crew Avengers were still going because they feel that our voices have been taken away again, especially around, um, trans issues and writes for, um, queers of colour. And you know, [00:07:00] that kind of stuff. And it's because Wellington is small, but there's nowhere to be angry safe at the moment. I don't think because you should, you know, you've got everyone's got a right to be angry, but you need to be to do so in a safe space. Yeah. Can you describe the membership of Queer Avengers? Because, uh, I mean, you've said that, you know, there were some youth coming along, but I'm also aware that there were kind of veteran [00:07:30] activists as well. What was the makeup of of the Queer Avengers? Well, yeah, the age group ranged from I think our youngest is about 13 or 14 for a little bit, right through to 6. 60 plus. And, um, again, I think it was just because we'd made it such AAA. We intentionally made sure it was a safe space and a space where everybody could be heard. And so, in doing that, you could then encourage [00:08:00] everybody would feel safe and welcome there, So yeah, the def. Definitely. We had a lot of, um, veteran activists and, um, people who organised stuff before, but, yeah, a lot of school school. I think the school age people were coming in because, um, some of our members were involved with schools out, and so they heard about career Avengers through schools out, and they came along [00:08:30] and they found us a place where they could be who they wanted to be being. I think the ability to give young people that space to be who they are or just hang out in a space where they can start to learn about themselves. I think it's quite valuable, which is, you know, I mean schools that does that anyway, But we were sort of a extension of that in some some respects, a politicised arm, sort of. [00:09:00] And can you could, um, give me some examples of why people were coming along to the Queer Avengers. Well, I just think it was because they wanted a space where they could talk about the stuff that was happening in their lives. I mean, a lot of the stuff we did, it was around schools, safe school spaces, but also the workplace as well being out at work and that kind of thing. So I think people [00:09:30] were just coming along because there was nothing. There was nowhere else like it. There was nothing else like it at the time. And I'd go so far as to say in New Zealand, even never mind just Wellington. And obviously it fed a need at the time. There was a lot of, um, things going on in the community. There's a lot of changes going on, I think, in the Queer communities, Um, there was, you know, the talk about marriage, [00:10:00] equality and trans rights and lack of spaces that weren't bars, that kind of thing. And so I think we just filled some of those gaps and people just people were fed up with being marginalised. I think, too. And so they felt that Queer Avengers was a place to try and correct that or challenge [00:10:30] that. Yeah. And when you say marginalised, are we talking about being marginalised from the, um, kind of straight community? Or is this kind of marginalisation actually within queer communities as well? Yeah, I think Both. Definitely. Yeah, because and I mean, I think it still happens today unless you go into a bar, there's not really a lot of queer spaces. Staying out will be the only other one that really that springs [00:11:00] to mind. That's not and doesn't involve drinking. And, um I mean, you know, you look back historically at pride events and things like that. There were protests. They were actions against people trying to stop us being who we are and that all disappeared over the over the years. So people wanted a space where [00:11:30] they could come and say, Actually, this just happened to me at school, and I'm not happy about it, and I don't know what to do about it. So can we do something about it as a group? That strength in numbers stuff? I suppose so, Yeah, which actually brings us on to the the first campaign of the Queer Avengers, which was the queer our schools. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, that was, um I mean, that was an [00:12:00] an initiative that was driven by the young people that were coming to us because they were They were. They were turning up and saying, Look, I'm I'm I'm getting harassed at school. I can't be myself at school or there's no space for me to be safe at school. And it's not right. And, um, schools were saying, Oh, no, there's no queer people at our schools. There's no gay people at our schools And we knew that that, you know, that that was a load of rubbish. It was only because you weren't providing a safe space for [00:12:30] people, so people weren't outing themselves at your school. So, um, a lot of the policy then and I think it's still the same today was to approach the individual schools, talk to the boards. But we didn't feel that that was enough. Because if you go to a, um, say a Christian school, they're not gonna want to pay attention or want to change things to allow [00:13:00] a safe space for students in their school that might not identify as straight. So if you're just leaving it up to the board of trustees, nothing's gonna change. So what we wanted to do was to get the Ministry of Education to say, actually, bullying within our schools, not providing a safe space for youth is a problem, and we're gonna make changes so that all schools have to follow those changes. Because we did, we felt that it wasn't [00:13:30] right to just leave it up to the board of trustees who may or may not agree with what we're saying. And, you know, a lot of schools said, Oh, we have bullying policies we don't tolerate. We have zero tolerance towards bullying, but queer bullying bullying for being trans is is really different. It's often because you know, if you're gonna report that you're being bullied because you're Trans, you have to out [00:14:00] yourself. You shouldn't have to do that if you're not ready to do that, so you're putting it on. The onus on the person who's being attacked rather than the bully is so, yeah, it was important that they recognise schools, recognised that just by having because, you know, the bullying could happen from the teachers as well. It wasn't just the other kids in the schools, so we felt it was important that the Ministry of Education had a blanket policy [00:14:30] that would not only recognise everyday bullying but transphobic homophobic bullying in their schools as well. And how did the ministry respond? Not in the way we wanted them to they they We made a lot of noise outside their office and, um, myself and one of the other members took a letter to them. But the, um I can't even remember [00:15:00] who it was we wanted to meet with Wouldn't meet with us, but we handed over the letter anyway. Looking at it now, I think maybe we helped. Maybe we helped start conversations. I don't think schools are as safe still as safe as they could be, but they're certainly a lot better, because we, uh one of the other things that we wanted as well was to have schools introduce, um the language and [00:15:30] start teaching kids about not teaching. That's not the right word, but just to have history. You know, the young people were saying, We want to learn about our history. There's a lot of stuff that has happened in the world historically about queer activism, and they don't hear about anything about it in the classroom. They wanted to learn about that as well as the other stuff that they learned about. There was no talk of, um and, you know, in the sex ed classes, [00:16:00] if you were lucky enough to be in school that had sex ed classes. There was no talk of conversation around healthy relationships, healthy sexual encounters from a, um, LGBTI perspective. So we wanted that to be included as well. So yeah, but I don't think I don't think that's changed so much. Although a lot more schools have, um, the strait alliances now, which is good. I don't know II. I doubt that's come specifically [00:16:30] from the actions that we took. But as I say, I hope that maybe we could. We started conversations and people started to think about the fact that you have the The school schools are full of everybody, all kinds of different people. And whether someone's told whether you know you think you've got queer people in your school or not is irrelevant because they're there. They just don't feel safe coming out. And why should they have to? But if you make a school, [00:17:00] if you have a school that is welcoming and safe for everybody, then those kids are going to feel more empowered and more comfortable. And we'll get a better education in the long run, too, because they're not constantly fighting bullies or feeling terrorised or not. wanting to go to school. They'll feel part of the school like everybody else. And so, you know, they get a better education as well. Shortly after the, uh, queer Avengers was formed, [00:17:30] Um, uh, the the group also took part in the transgender day of remembrance. And I'm just looking at the news item from 2011 here, where it said internationally there were at least 221 deaths. Um, related to hate crimes around gender identity, Um, just shocking statistics. Yeah, horrible. Just horrible. And, um, the difficulty is they are that often doesn't get recorded when someone is, [00:18:00] um, murdered. If someone is, um, pre surgery and they're murdered, they probably get recorded as their birth gender. So the number of people who are gender diverse or trans who are murdered it's probably way more than we even realise, because people sometimes people, they're not very out in their lives. So there's other people around them who may not have known had any idea of their trans identity. [00:18:30] So they, you know, Yeah, it's a mess. It's horrible. And it's it's not changing any time soon. From what I can see. Well, somebody that was kind of fueling, um, some really nasty stuff going on at the time. Uh, locally was, um, columnist Rosemary McLeod, um, in Wellington. And I think it was 2012 where she, uh, wrote a really transphobic column. Um, [00:19:00] and the Queer Avengers protested her. Yeah, Yeah, we did. Yeah. We, um, occupied Dominion Post, um, building on street. Yeah, that was really interesting, because, um, what she wrote was absolutely disgusting. But the Dominion post response to it was Oh, well, it's just an opinion piece. It's her opinion. They didn't have to publish it. So by publishing it, they're taking her opinion. They're agreeing with her [00:19:30] opinion, and they're giving space to they. I mean, the opinion pieces are problematic anyway, because you you very rarely get an opportunity to have the opposite side expressed. Whereas you would hope with good journalism that you at least get the opportunity. So there was There was none of that. She wrote her vile piece, and it was disgusting. And, um, yeah, we actually that action took place really quickly because I think the the piece was published on the Thursday [00:20:00] and we were protesting on the Friday And, um, we got a good turnout and made a lot of noise in the in the foyer. And but actually, I think from that, we managed to get a couple of opinion pieces published that were, um, a lot more positive, but that wouldn't be hard because there was nothing positive about what Rosemary Cloud had to say at all. But yeah, I think they manage. We've managed to get a couple of, um, opposite opposite viewpoints [00:20:30] put across. But you know, someone with a following like her people aren't gonna read what? What? Just some bunch of you're both in opposition to what she said, but yeah, but The Dominion Post has been problematic and stuff for a long time with the language they use, particularly relating to trans people. And we've challenged [00:21:00] them often on it. And some of us still do, you know, And you know, it's That's one of the other things about social media. It's much easier to do that these days. So and this is things like using the wrong pronouns. Yeah, yeah. Using incorrect pronouns and dead names and stuff like that, Yeah, it's just it's just a complete lack of respect for some for an individual. Um, and it it fuels people's [00:21:30] argument that, um, you know, there's there's a small number of people that still believe that you are what you are born as and you can't change it. So having people publish an article using a dead name or previous genders misgender someone that only just continues to feel that belief Can you describe for me um, what [00:22:00] it's like when you read something like Rosie Rosemary McLeod's article? How do um how do you react to that kind of thing? Um, I get angry, and I think, uh, you know, for some I'm I'm a woman. So if it makes me angry, I don't know what it would do to someone who was Trans. But also, I feel, [00:22:30] too, that it's my responsibility to fight back against that. It's not up to trans people to have to fight that ugly fight all the time. They've got enough going on in their lives. So I think it's up to people to show support to trans people, to be allies, and so to hit back at that kind of stuff. When you see that kind of thing to step up because you know it. Also, it shows that, um how can I put it? It's [00:23:00] It's more about acceptance. So if more and more people say they don't have any issue with trans people, then hopefully the playing field for trans people gets safer and gets better, and they can feel more accepted and can participate in life because they know there's more people out there that don't have an issue. Don't have any concerns with how they want to live their lives. Yeah, and but yeah, that really mean Rosemary I? I don't [00:23:30] read her anymore. She makes me angry. Full stop. But yeah. How did the, um, public, um, respond to the Queer Avengers? Protests like like like outside the Dominion post. How? How? How was How were you doing? Oh, I would I. I hope that most people were supportive of what we were doing, particularly in the Queer Communities. But I think sometimes we upset a lot of people, particularly around the marriage equality stuff. We upset a lot of [00:24:00] people. Um, they gave us more power than what we really had. Um, you know, some some people within the queer community, So we were really supportive of what we were doing and really pleased with what we were doing and recognised that what we were doing there was a space for for it. But, um, yeah, many people didn't support it. And how was that, uh, nonsupport shown? [00:24:30] Oh, that's a good question. I think more of it was just rumblings that we heard people saying, Oh, you know so and so such and such backward Avengers last week. Or although there was a couple of times that, um, people hit back at us, Um, because we we were quite good at getting We had quite a good, um, team of people to, um, write [00:25:00] bits for papers for the newspaper and stuff. So we were quite good at putting out a press release and having it, um, published more widely outside of just, you know, not just within queer newspapers and queer stuff online. So that was quite interesting. So, yeah, sometimes there were occasions where we got hit back at, um, one I particularly remember was around, um, one of the All Blacks calling being homophobic, and we called him out on it. And was [00:25:30] it? Yeah, I think so. He was or something. Yeah, I can't remember exactly. People, I think that particular one What I found funny about it was that a lot of people in New Zealand really get upset if you criticise the All Blacks. So a lot of the fact that we wore over that was because, like, you can't talk about it about like like that about our All blacks, their pressure. Stop it. You'll be me. [00:26:00] Which of course only makes us laugh and fuels us even more. But yeah, I think it you know it. There's always gonna be people who disagree. But if you can have a conversation, if you can start a conversation, if someone at work who is closeted can go to work and say, Oh, did you see what that happened? And talk to other people and realise that the other people actually are on their side? Then maybe they can feel a bit [00:26:30] more safe or a bit more comfortable at work because it's not quite as bad as they initially felt or you know the opposite. Everyone goes here bloody or whatever, then they they know that hiding then that they're in the wrong workplace and that you know? Yeah. I don't know. Another high profile, uh, action was the glitter bombing of, um, Jermaine Greer, one of my favourite. Like, can you give [00:27:00] me some background and then talk about the event? Um, Germaine Greer, where do you start with someone like Germaine Greer? Um, was she when you heard she was coming here for the, um, readers and Writers Week. And, um, I just suggested one night at one of our meetings that we should go, and from that it grew, but yeah, Jermaine Grier has a history of transphobia she has [00:27:30] out of people in their work life, which is never appropriate. Uh, no one, particularly straight, says people have any right to out trans people, um, or anybody for that matter. But anyway, Germaine Greer, for some reason, feels that she has the right to do that. She's written many, um, nasty pieces about trans people and is very [00:28:00] Oh, it's she's just nasty. She says really uses really awful language and feels a lot of hatred. So, um, we decided that we would take some action when she while she was here, and we had a lot of planning around it and a lot of discussion on what we do, we would do. And at the time, there'd been a lot of glitter bombing happening, particularly in the US. So we thought, Right, Well, we're gonna give this a go. Can you just describe what glitter bowling is? Sure. Oh, yeah, sure. It's when, [00:28:30] um, someone who is homophobic or transphobic um, they're in a public space and, um, some activists will throw glitter over them. Um, not probably not such a good thing to do these days, given what we know more about glitter now, but I believe you can get some more planet friendly glitter as well, so it can continue. But it hasn't been done for a while. I'm not sure what happened there, but anyway, so yeah, that's that's all. Glitter bombing is to throw glitter over someone in a public space because glitter [00:29:00] has always been. I have no idea why a thing that has been big in communities historically speaking. Yeah, but I guess it's just it's just that sparkly, fun, glittery kind of thing to do to someone who appears to not want to have any of that in their life. So it's quite entertaining to throw it at them. So, yeah, um, [00:29:30] we decided we were quite I mean, a lot of it is funny when you look back on it and probably quite ridiculous. But at the time, we we were very careful about it. So we, um we discussed it at in our meetings as doing the housework, just in case anyone was bugging us and listening because, you know, we were we were, for all intents and purposes, breaking the law. Um, and we had a lot of the a lot of the, um school kids were like, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna do it, I wanna do it. But [00:30:00] we were really sure that we didn't involve them, because if we were to get into any kind of legal issues, we didn't want to involve the the young kids. So the we the date came around. We, um one of our members bought some tickets, and three of us went in to hear the lecture beforehand. And, um, one of our members stood up and challenged, um, Jermaine [00:30:30] in the, um in the panel discussion that she was having. She was talking. It was really strange because the discussion was about ageing. And, um, she was I don't like it when people don't want to challenge me anymore because they think I'm a frail little old lady. But then the argument was used against us for attacking a frail little old lady. But anyway, um, so, yeah, she challenged, um, Jermaine during the discussion. And, you [00:31:00] know, she Oh, that was years ago. And the woman was out already and been and gone, and I tried to brush it off, but And what? That particular incident might have been historical, but it hasn't. She still continues to be transphobic to this day. And then afterwards, there was the, um, obligatory book signing. So we were standing in line for that, waiting to get up to that. I had, um, some glitter and a coffee cup, [00:31:30] and, um, my cohort kay, she had some as well, and we had another member up in front of us. So she put the book down to be signed, and then we came up behind her, and she was signing it. We shouted at her Transphobia is bullshit. And we use that word specifically because she had been, um, barred from being able to, um Come to New Zealand because she'd used the word bullshit back earlier in her career. I think maybe in the seventies [00:32:00] or eighties, so we, you know, we wanted to play on that. We wanted to throw her words back in her face as well as the glitter, and she was absolutely horrified she couldn't believe it. And she accused us of being men. And, um, she stopped the book signing right then and there got up and left Whis whisked out the door by security. But the look on her face there's a photo still out there on [00:32:30] the Interwebs is absolutely priceless. I love it. Actually, I should really print a copy of it out and keep it because it's just she was, I think I think what appalled her more was something like that could happen to her rather than the transphobia that we were heading back at. I think she felt that she was such an I, a feminist icon, that no one would possibly attack her in such a terrible way, and the only people that could possibly do such a thing would have to be [00:33:00] men. But the the the funny thing was that she um left New Zealand pretty much straight after and thought that would that would be it. She would leave it, leave the incident behind and never have to deal with it again. Well, it followed her around the world. The story got mentioned in Indian media Australia, America, the UK. Just it. It went international. And so by the time her plane would have landed in the UK, everyone [00:33:30] knew about it there as well. So I'm sure that didn't That didn't go down very well for her. She thought she could leave it behind, but far from it. But she she just she continues with her vial to this day, she's horrible. Yeah, which brings us on to that, um, acronym turfs. Um, can you explain to me what turfs means, what it stands [00:34:00] for? It stands for trans exclusionary, radical feminist, and it is a term that is used. I'm not sure who coined it where it came from. I'm sure that's out there somewhere, but it's used to, um, describe someone who believes that there is no that trans people do not exist, that you cannot change your assigned gender and, um, that, particularly [00:34:30] trans women do not belong in, um, feminist spaces do not belong in women's spaces. Certainly have no right to call themselves lesbian. Yeah, and in the New Zealand context, How How is that playing out like now? Well, it's kind of interesting. Um, they're getting a lot of publicity at the moment, but it's a really small group we have decided or not decided [00:35:00] we have. We think that they've made connections with the group in the UK, which is quite large, and so they're feeding off them and getting support from them. But there's the turf. There's been a lot of turf, um, activity. There's been posters put up stickers being put up generally, um, turfs are also SWFs, which is sex worker, exclusionary, radical feminists. So there's a lot of hit back against, [00:35:30] um, sex workers as well from the same people. So there's been there's been a campaign just recently, people putting up stickers around the place, um, anti trans stuff. I mean, the the thing that I find ironic is that a lot of the turfs are treating trans women the same way they were treated back in the early days of you know, the seventies, when women were being excluded [00:36:00] from a lot of stuff and my feminism rose again. So it's kind of interesting, but there's also a feeling out there. Some people genuinely believe that some men will go to the great extent of transitioning just in order to infiltrate women's spaces and feminism, which I cannot get my head around at all. I don't and and I. I really don't understand why they feel someone would do that. [00:36:30] It's nuts. The, um, two news items I can think of. That's that that that's happened in the last couple of months. One was, um, the the the, uh, trans exclusion from a woman's gym here in Wellington, Um, but also the, uh, proposed legislation going through Parliament at the moment in terms of, um, people able to self-identity the gender on identity documents like birth certificates and and passports. [00:37:00] Um uh, are there other? Are you aware of other kind of, um issues in the media that, um, have been related to this? There's not. It's There's not one issue, other issues going on. It's not getting a lot of media, and that's, um, the business of, um, medical history and and, um, outing yourself on medical forms. It's to do with the, um, ID I. I [00:37:30] didn't I can't remember what it stands for now, but it's something that's used within the health system to identify people. And at first glance you think, Oh, that's probably quite a good idea, but actually outing yourself in that manner. You don't know who's behind the door, right? So you could fill out a form. And you could say, I'm I identify as lesbian, and I'm transgender pre-op or whatever. [00:38:00] You don't know that the people that you're gonna be dealing with on the other side of that paperwork are Are you gonna want to have anything to do with you or B treat you as a human being because there's a lot of trans people who can't access health care in a meaningful manner because a doctor or a nurse will look at them and see their whole problem as being Trans. You've got a broken leg or because you're [00:38:30] Trans. I know that's a bit of a, but it's, you know, it's like that. They can't just go in and get the health care they need for a cold, or they keep getting headaches or whatever without it being related to or the, uh, the, you know, the person on the other end is completely transphobic and won't support them with the medical care that they need. Won't support them with being able to access the, um, medication that they need to, you know, the hormone treatment and [00:39:00] and stuff. So, yeah, but that's not getting much media coverage. It's just been a, um, select committee hearing about it. But it was only, um, written submissions, which is kind of interesting, but yeah, I don't I don't know an awful lot about that. Can you recall when you first heard, like the term turf? I mean, what what? How far back does this go? Um, [00:39:30] I heard it's only I've only heard it relatively recently. Maybe five years at the very most. But maybe even that might be a bit of a stretch. Yeah, I'm sure if I looked it up on the Internet, I could find out where it originated from. I don't know who coined the phrase where it's come from, but it seems to be quite new in the daily lexicon. And I mean, I'd imagine that it's probably just something that is understood within queer communities. If you used it in that rest [00:40:00] of the world, they probably wouldn't have a clue. Most people wouldn't even know what transgender means. Never mind what using the term tofu is about. But, you know, having said that, there's also a lot of people in the queer community who it's new to them as well. So yeah, it does appear to be quite a new terminology. Just coming back to something you were saying earlier, Um, in terms of describing some of the actions you've taken particularly like things like the Jemaine Greer Glitter bombing, where it was [00:40:30] a, um, entertaining action. Um, and I was thinking actions can be, you know, um, physical. They can be silent action, silent protests, entertaining. Uh, was that something that the queer Avengers thought about a lot in terms of, uh, wanting to, um, only do a certain type of action or No, I don't think so. Um, I think the glitter bombing came up because, [00:41:00] as I said, you know, there'd been a few of them over in the States and had been reported in the media. I think we were more about performing an action rather than writing letters. That's just the way we we wanted to operate because there's enough organisations out there who will sit down and write the letters and, um, petition the MP S and all that kind of stuff. But we felt [00:41:30] it that we wanted to be more of an action group because, you know, you do get coverage. And so, as I've said, you know, people start to talk about what you're doing, Why are you doing that? And hopefully that helps people to have more of an understanding and have more of an acceptance of the queer and trans people in their lives. [00:42:00] Well, one of the actions that got quite a lot of attention was, um, and prompted a lot of debate was when the Queer Avengers, um, were talking about marriage equality and saying that there's actually more. Let's go beyond marriage laws, you know, highlighting the limitations of both marriage and the adoption laws. Um, tell me, how was that received within the, um, kind of rainbow community who was kind of pushing for marriage? That [00:42:30] was probably one of our biggest campaigns that was most disliked? Um, yeah. Uh, people were terrified that what we would do would result in the bill not being passed. Um, you know, I said earlier that people gave us more power than what we had to think that a group of people like us could stop a bill like that from going through was quite ridiculous. But [00:43:00] so, yeah, we got a lot of kickback from within the community about, um, about what we were doing. You know, we we said on multiple occasions that we were in support of the bill, but at the same time, it's not gonna fix everything we wanted people to, because when people were saying that there were a lot of people saying, Oh, well, once we get marriage equality, that's it. We've got it all. Well, that's rubbish. Um, you know, we were dealing with young people that were being still being thrown out of home. We were dealing [00:43:30] with people who were losing their jobs because of their trans identity. Um, there's more. There's, you know, it's still not a safe world. And no matter how much we love Wellington, how much how progressive we think Wellington is. There are still people who are unsafe in this city. So We wanted to people to understand that, Yeah, it's great to have marriage equality, but that's not the end of it. There's more to it. We need to keep fighting. We need to keep [00:44:00] making sure our struggles are still being discussed and are still there at, you know, people are still aware of what of what it means to be queer. It's not just about, uh yeah, it's not just about marriage. I remember going to a really amazing conference that both the Queer Avengers and other groups like I think it was a campaign for marriage, equality [00:44:30] and legalised love. I can't remember the exact organisers, um, happened happened in Wellington, but it had the the the, um, wonderful work streams. So not only were people talking about how do we get marriage equality across the line, but also we had the queer Avengers saying, But hang on, there's more. Can you talk to me about how, um the queer Avengers have worked with these other organisations to, uh II, I guess. Put that conference on. [00:45:00] Um I don't know if we so much worked with them or is more we just told them we were gonna be there because genuinely people thought we would upset the system. We thought we we laughed about it. We said people genuinely think that we're gonna scare the horses. And if we make too much noise about other stuff that this bill is not gonna pass, people genuinely believe we could stop the bill passing, which is ridiculous. So I think, um, I think we [00:45:30] might have come up with some funding for that conference, which is what got us in the door. I can't really remember now, but we just wanted to make sure that again everybody's given a voice. Marriage is great, but not everybody wants it. So if you're just having a conference that's focusing on one thing, you're forgetting everybody else and you're not providing voice or space for everybody else. So we wanted to make sure that that was happening in that in that space as well that it wasn't just [00:46:00] the marriage that was being discussed so that the people who didn't don't want to get married or didn't agree with quite the terminology of the law felt that they weren't being left out by their own communities. I think that's probably fundamentally at the heart of what care Avengers was all about is making sure that everybody had the space to use their voice and to be heard [00:46:30] because it's so easy to forget. Even within marginalised groups, it's so easy to forget those who don't quite play the game the same way as you do or don't quite involve their lives or live their lives the same way as you do. So they get left behind. I mean, the perfect example that came out of the marriage. Equality was trans rights when we went to the I think you were there at the thing at Parliament on the Friday night. And, um, Marilyn, [00:47:00] is it not Marilyn wearing? Is it? What's her name? Oh gosh, how silly. Oh, Catherine, she she said. Trans people got left out of that change of the of the bill, so people get left out all the time. You can fight for rights for one group of people, but you leave somebody else out. So queer Avengers wanted to make sure that we weren't doing that we were making. We wanted to make sure that everybody that was affected by any kind of change or any kind of harassment [00:47:30] or bullying, that all people had an opportunity to to share their stories and to have their voices heard. So there's nobody was being left behind. Nobody was being left out. And when you say she, I think there was some former MP. Catherine O'Regan wasn't it with the Human Rights Amendment? So to have someone admit that someone in that kind of power and doing that to admit that yes, she was sorry. In hindsight, she shouldn't have left Trans people out. [00:48:00] That's a big, bloody deal, because that's a long time later. So imagine if they had included Trans people way back then how much different their lives might be today. I mean, there's no saying that it would be, but there's a great opportunity because those of us C, queer people, lesbians and gay men our lives have changed hugely since that period. So imagine the possibilities that could have happened for trans people as well if they'd been brought along. One of the other things I remember from that, uh, beyond [00:48:30] conference was that there seemed to be a real, um, push to have the campaign a mainstream campaign, so they only were showing kind of quota quotation marks, kind of acceptable couples. Um, and so anything other than that, um, was actually, um, kind of frowned upon. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that that's again. It's it's it's leaving behind those people who don't fit what you think is the right, [00:49:00] uh, way of being. So some people have healthy, happy relationships where there's more than two people involved in it. Those people are as important as couples. Those people's lives have as much value as my life does with my wife, but they never they never Yeah, they they're not deemed. They're not looked upon. They're frowned upon as you say, so they [00:49:30] don't get included, they get excluded. And if we if we want the rest of the world to accept gay men and lesbians for who we are and to allow us just to get on and live our lives like we want, what right do we have to turn around and do the same to somebody else in our community? Because we don't quite think that that lifestyle is for us. Oh, that's not we. I couldn't possibly live in a relationship where there's more than two of us OK, well, that's my thing. It's not their thing, but it doesn't mean I have a right to trample on their [00:50:00] rights. They have as much right to exist and to be recognised in the law as the rest of us. And so, yeah, that's where a lot of that beyond marriage stuff was coming from was to make sure that there was a public discussion again about different ways of being. I think that Friday night with Catherine O'Regan was the first time I met Shelley, Howard and Shelley. Really staunch and just an amazing, um, advocate. [00:50:30] Yeah. Who? Um, now, Shelley passed away. Was it November 2017? Yeah, a huge loss to me personally, but also to our community. Shelley just wanted to be able to get on and be Shelley. That's all she ever wanted. She didn't. She never wanted to do a hormone treatment. She never wanted sex change or any of that stuff. [00:51:00] So in some people's eyes, I suppose they would see it just as a as a cross dresser. But she Shelley was more than that. And she called herself Trans because she she was trans. So I think I suppose From that perspective, her legacy would be just to be who you are. That was I mean, she would talk to the youth groups quite a lot. The trans transform and schools out and just [00:51:30] encourage those young people to live their best lives and just to be themselves. Because, you know, as I was saying earlier, everybody has a right. Doesn't just because somebody lives a different lifestyle to you, and you might not agree with it that you're entitled to not agree with it. Be not entitled to stop that person from existing. So I think that's Yeah. That's what Shelley was about. Just being Shelley herself, working hard, living hard, enjoying her life when [00:52:00] she when she wasn't working and also messing things up. She liked to stir. And I think that that's that's great. Yeah. Smashed the binary change, The paradigm with Shelley? Yeah, and a real fighter for, um uh, you know, against injustice. I mean, I remember Shelley. Um, we were protesting outside the Russian Embassy. Uh, a couple of years ago, I think. Was it for Chechnya? Well, [00:52:30] it was the chechnya the couple of years ago, but actually the queer Avengers um were protesting outside the Russian Embassy, um, a few years earlier, like in 2012, 2013. And it's interesting to me that, um, the Queer Avengers weren't just thinking about kind of local issues, national issues, but also international issues. Yeah, I think we recognise the fact that we could protest in our own backyard. We had that privilege and that [00:53:00] right to do so because we're protected under the law. So then the ability to do so against some countries where it's not legal to do that, where it's not possible to do that It was important to us to to show solidarity to those because, like the action against um outside the Russian Embassy, Um, there've been a lot of reports going on about, um, people being attacked in Russia for being queer. [00:53:30] And there's a group that had started up. I can't remember what they exactly called now, but it's a Russian, um, core activist group in Moscow, and we were in touch with them and that, but that we were following them on Facebook and engaging with them on Facebook, and there was a lot of stuff going down at the time. So we said, you know, we can do this. We can go and protest outside the embassy. Is that something that would be useful to you? Because we didn't feel that it would be a good idea [00:54:00] to go and highlight an issue back in Russia if they if it meant that they would get, um, more aggression against them. So we wanted to just check in with them and they were like, Yeah, that would be fantastic. So we did. We did the action outside the Russian Embassy, which was hilarious because they took our photos. All these guys came out from the embassy and stood behind the fence taking our photos. So yeah, whether we can ever get to Russia [00:54:30] or not, I don't know. I've never tried, but it just seemed a bit ridiculous. But yeah, we We were very conscious of the fact that we could do that kind of thing here in a where is not a lot. Whereas around the world, a lot of people can't do that. So we wanted to show solidarity for those people by doing those kind of actions and, um also in response in solidarity with stuff that happened in Australia. There was the incident at the, um, Mardi Gras with [00:55:00] the cops attacking, um, two gay guys at Mardi Gras. So we protested at the outside the Australian Embassy against that as well. Yeah. What in the US Embassy, Um, protesting against, uh, or protesting in solidarity with, um Chelsea man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it was just it was highlighting stuff. We wanted people because you Yeah, I, I suppose it comes back to [00:55:30] that thing where you can't just say it's all right in New Zealand. So who cares? Whatever happens overseas, not my problem. But it is our problem. It's all of our problems. And it was important for us to show solidarity. And, you know, um, what Chelsea Manning did. It was a huge thing internationally, and she got a lot of shit for it. And a lot of stuff that's was rubbish, you know, killed. Judith [00:56:00] Collins was on the TV just the other day saying what she did was wrong. It probably cost people's lives, but actually there's evidence to show that it didn't cost anybody's lives, but not only to support her for that, but to support her as a trans woman doing that because that took a lot of cuts to do both of those things under those conditions. Just give me a little bit of background on who Chelsea Manning is. OK? Chelsea Manning, Um, is what it used to be in the, um, [00:56:30] uh, armed services in the United States. I'm not gonna name her. Um, And during that time, she, um, released some information to wikileaks about, um, abuse by American soldiers against, um, people in Afghanistan and Iraq, I think might have that wrong, but anyway, abuse against prisoners of war. Basically [00:57:00] a pretty disgusting abuse, too, by that account. And, um rather than focusing on the fact of what she reported, they decided to throw her in jail because she was being unpatriotic. And then she went to jail. And then I think it was, um, Barack Obama. The president commuted her sentence. One of the last things he did, but she had served about seven or eight years. I think, and you know, it's still obviously causing her issues because she's trying to come to Australia and New Zealand at the moment to talk. [00:57:30] And there's discussions about whether she should be given a visa or not. Yesterday, Immigration New Zealand said that they would grant her a visa under special conditions. I think it was called a work visa or something. So the Queer Avengers were actually, um, doing that action around Chelsea Manning in 2013. Now it's five years later, and and obviously Chelsea is potentially coming to New Zealand in September of this year. Um, I guess [00:58:00] just on in reflection and and kind of, um, thinking back over those last five years, do you think things have changed for Rainbow Communities? Um, particularly in Wellington, Um, and I. I guess I'm kind of coming to, you know, the you know, the one the legacy of Queer Avengers. But also have things moved on. Wow, [00:58:30] that's a big question. Multiple questions, um, have things moved on. Part of me wants to say yes, but another part of me wants to say no. I think at the moment we was we we There's still lots to be fought for. Trans people are still treated like second class citizens. Some people won't recognise them at all, yet they still get attacked. They still [00:59:00] lose their jobs. They still get thrown out of home. They still can't access surgery. They still can't access fair and equal medical treatment. So from that aspect, no, nothing's changed. In fact, I would say quite potentially got worse in the five years, you know, they've got the only surgeon that was doing, um, gender reassignment has retired and nobody's replacing him, and there doesn't seem to be any [00:59:30] urgency to try and replace him. So that's, you know, that's only going to compound the problem that already existed of the huge waiting times. Um, from the point of view for gay and lesbians, I think I don't know if things have changed or if things are just settled. People [01:00:00] don't seem to be, I don't know, maybe it's a Wellington thing, people, because Wellington has always been a great city and that you can walk down the street completely different and nobody really bats an eyelid. Nobody seems to really bother. It's quite alternative. I mean, there's definitely some areas where it's not and it's things are still problematic. But I think on the whole I think maybe things are just settled rather than changed. That's how I would put it. But you know, I'm I'm involved with outer spaces. I'm on the board for outer spaces [01:00:30] and we've still got young people who struggle in their daily lives. So until that stops and until Trans people are just accepted, then no, there's still lots to to keep fighting for. And, you know, as I said, I said earlier, too, that those people have said to me recently that they miss Avengers or miss having something like that. Maybe in this current climate, with the likes of that orange buffoon [01:01:00] over in America. Yeah, and Theresa May in the UK. And who knows what's gonna happen with Scott Morrison? I think that climate, maybe things are going backwards a little bit. Um, I'd like to think that maybe it won't. Here in New Zealand, we've got a relatively good government at the moment, But there's one thing that I think might become more of an issue within the Rainbow Communities [01:01:30] is ageing our ageing population. We've got a lot of people who were rejected by their families back in the seventies and eighties, and now they're getting older and they've got no one and nothing. So what happens to them? There's no facilities no, you know, it's like the bullying in the schools. There's no there's no queer people living in these retirement homes. Well, actually, there probably is. It's just that you're not aware of them because they keep themselves hidden. [01:02:00] I and I've heard people talk about that, that they have to go back in the closet when they go into retirement homes, particularly because a lot of retirement homes in that in this country are run by religious organisations. And if you don't have a choice because you've got no family because your family rejected you, what do you do? So I think that might be might be becoming more of a an issue over the next decade or so. Mhm. And what about the legacy of Queer [01:02:30] Avengers? What do you think that will be? Oh dear, I don't know. Just to stand up and fight for who you are. You've got a right to exist, but at the same time, don't trample on other people's voices. Make sure that you empower everybody around you to have a right to speak and a right to exist and to be heard. I'd like to think that's what our legacy would be and And why did Queer Avengers stop? I think we just burnt [01:03:00] out. We just we did a lot and keeping that consistency going that level, I mean, to an extent, that level of anger, it's it's hard work. And I think we just burnt ourselves out. Really? Yeah. No other reason than that. I don't think. What did you get out of Queer Avengers? Personally? Friendship. I made a lot of good friends, but I learned a lot about myself [01:03:30] and about our communities and how we exist in the world and how you can challenge the status quo. And you can push back just because people say, Oh, no, you shouldn't do that. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't. You can push back and you can make a noise and that you might not change things overnight, But you might start a conversation or you might allow it. [01:04:00] Someone. Yeah, yeah, I just I don't know, I loved it. It was good. And I hope that people like Shelley, too, because Shelley was just learning to be herself when we started out, and she was coming along to the meetings that she could, and I hope that She got strength from being able to come to our meetings, and I hope a lot of a lot of people got strength by coming to our meetings. I hope that that's what happened. I know I did, [01:04:30] and I loved it. It was great.
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