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My name is Sam, and I'm Australian by birth. So was born in Sydney in 1984 and have travelled around Sydney, Melbourne, Tasmania. Um, when I was 16, we moved to Invercargill and then I went up to a uni at Otago when I was 18 and spent eight years there before moving up here. And [00:00:30] here I am. Tell me about the differences between going from somewhere like Sydney and these the these larger cities to somewhere like Invercargill. Well, uh, so I I've been used to travelling around since I was a little kid. We moved to Melbourne when I was four and then Invercargill and back to Melbourne. And I was living in Melbourne when I was starting to think about sexuality stuff, and I grew up as a girl. So that was when I first started thinking about [00:01:00] sexuality, and when I was 16, I fell in love with a girl and my mom said I didn't tell her, but around that time my mum had said, Dad's got a job over in Invercargill. Do you want to go? And I was like, Yeah, get me out of here. I need to get as far away from this as possible. I can't deal with it and then got to Invercargill and realised just how small towns could be like from living in [00:01:30] Melbourne, where there's, I don't know, sort of four or 5 million people to going to Invercargill where there's significantly less. I remember when we first got off the plane, my dad drove from one end of the city to the others. I thought, Is that it? This is This is going to be terrible. Um, I think it was. It was a real shock to the system, both in terms of going from a place where it was relatively queer, friendly, even though I was a teenager growing [00:02:00] up in a Catholic school and it was pretty scary to be out at all. But to be I knew that there were other queer people around in the Melbourne in Melbourne City, whereas in Invercargill it wasn't OK to be gay at all. And I had one of I remember really clearly in one of my classes, one of the boys talking about how gay people should all be put on an island and shot. And he said that in earshot of my teacher who kind of nodded [00:02:30] in in agreeance and that was it. And so that was really shocking for me and kind of I spent the last the next couple of years thinking, OK, it's not OK to be who I am, and it's certainly not OK to tell anyone about it. So that was kind of quite a formative thing for me to keep me in the closet for a good number of years after that, heading back to Australia and and when you were in Melbourne growing up, when did you start [00:03:00] realising that that that maybe you were liking the same sex? Um, I guess it's it feels really complicated for me in terms of gender and sexuality stuff, because they, they both kind of were intertwined with one another of I only have brothers and felt like one of the boys most of most of my childhood growing up that it was just like, Oh yeah, we just This is how we do life And it was quite [00:03:30] it was quite strange, moving into high school and starting. That's when people really started breaking up into different friendship groups and lots of my friends who were girls, like started liking boys and I was like, This is the most boring conversation ever. I don't feel attracted to anyone. Why do Why does everyone spend all their time talking about this stuff? And then when I did start to feel attraction, it was really scary because I was like, Oh, I'm not [00:04:00] feeling attraction in the same way that other people are. I don't really know what to do with this and just that feeling of feeling different and feeling bad for feeling different. Um, so I think I started thinking about it around, Yeah, around high school. So 13, 14 years old and really didn't stop thinking about it, and I don't think I ever have stopped thinking about it. I don't know what my sexuality is. Still, I don't have any words for it other than queer, [00:04:30] but I think definitely realising that I was attracted to other other girls in my class around sort of 14, 15, 16. And by the time I had words to articulate it, sort of when I was 16 and really fell in love with someone that it made me reflect on other friendships that I'd had with other other girls and other feelings that I'd had that I could be like Oh, yeah, that was a crush. That's what my friends [00:05:00] are talking about when they like other boys or whatever. So I I think I had. I didn't have as many words for them for for it. But I was feeling the feelings for a long time, if that makes sense, yeah, speaking of words around you, like within the family or within the school, what words were used to describe gay and lesbian or or either sexuality or gender variations? Uh, well, [00:05:30] I guess my mom has three sisters and two of them were gay. So we had words for a lesbian gay that that all made sense. It was spoken about. It was there. It was fine. Um, I think in high school those words were used as derogatory words. Quite a lot. That was That was just, you know, things were gay and that meant they were bad. And I think that's still something that lots of lots [00:06:00] of high schoolers use and adults, Um, in high school, it was something that because we were Catholic in a Catholic high school, it wasn't really OK to be out There was there were two lesbians in in the in the class, two years older than me and they were the only out kids at the school. And there was lots of rumours about how one of them wasn't really gay, but would had been kind of forced into this relationship [00:06:30] because she didn't know how to say no or and just really gross kind of social isolation. Of those two girls. That kind of it was really apparent that it wasn't OK to be out and that you if if you were out, you wouldn't have any friends. I thought being different was bad and that was I. I spent a long time trying to blend in and be invisible and not be known and not be seen because I was really scared of who I was. And I think [00:07:00] that was because I knew that I was different and I thought that if I was different, I would be picked on. I would be ostracised. I would be told that I'm a freak or a weirdo and that my difference would be something that distances myself from people. And I think that's been a really a really big thing that has shifted for me, that actually it's my difference that allows me to connect well with other people. And it's something that brings me closer to people, and it's also something that highlights [00:07:30] strengths and assets that I have. So that's nice. In terms of fitting in, What can you describe to me? What some of the kind of things that you would do to fit in because, I mean, that must be more obviously a conscious decision. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I remember countless times of getting makeovers with friends who would tell me to wear makeup and do this stuff and me really actively, like, Yep, I'm gonna try and be this girl and I'm gonna [00:08:00] try and be a successful girl. And I hope this works and would have long hair would wear the skirts, would do everything that I could, and all the while feeling actively uncomfortable and feeling actively disassociated from myself and just feeling like I was really failing at it. It's quite hilarious to look at pictures of me as a teenager where I'm like, actively uncomfortable, but thinking this [00:08:30] is the only way that this is how I'm supposed to be, So I will try really hard to do it. Can you describe for me? Um, like you were saying, Oh, to be a successful girl. How? I mean, how do you get the idea of you know, what is a successful girl? Can you describe for me what I think in my mind? When I was younger, being successful girl was, was wearing the skirts, was having the boyfriend was doing those stereotypical things that actually, when I started to unpack a lot of [00:09:00] that stuff, I no one around me was a stereotypical girl. But I feel like I've been fed a lot of images about what it meant to be successful from media, from friends, from family. Um, and I was always aware when I wasn't doing it right, because either I would notice my difference, or I'd notice people saying, I don't understand why you dress like that or I don't understand this. Something's not working. And, you know, [00:09:30] it was a combination of both sexuality stuff and gender stuff of just trying to work out what was going on and how I felt about how I felt about that stuff. as well of, you know, that was really important for me for a long time, to have really long hair and to use it to hide myself and and wear really baggy clothing to hide anything that was going on. No, it was It was quite funny when I moved to Inver Cargo [00:10:00] in terms of gender stuff compared to the gender norms in in Australian high schools, particularly in Melbourne, where there's a really high percentage of, um, Italian and Greek girls who are very pretty, lots of lots of makeup and hugs and kisses all around. And then I moved to Invercargill, where the norm for girls was, you know, quite practical. Wear very butch personalities, like, quite tough. That was how that's how girls [00:10:30] were very rural. And I really loved it when I first moved to Inver Cargo in terms of that stuff, because I could finally just wear jeans and a t-shirt, and that would be that's kind of the norm. Um, but it was yeah, really interesting in terms of growing up and moving around so much that there was lots of different ideas about what a girl could be. And even though I felt all the time. No matter which incarnation of that, I was doing it wrong. Um, I think it was It was It was a really nice [00:11:00] move from Melbourne to Inver Cargo. In terms of that stuff, I felt like finally I could be be a more successful girl in that stuff. Talk to me about the the the the gender side of things and and how that kind of comes up for you and how then it also relates to sexuality. Well, I guess when I was when I was 21 I was finally able to tell other people that I was attracted to girls. And I thought, This [00:11:30] is great. I'm finally free enough to be like, Yeah, this is an important part of my identity. And I figured it out and I was still feeling a little bit like, Oh, no, this is not right. This is not the full picture. And I didn't really understand why. And I thought, maybe I'm just still working through internalised homophobia stuff. And then I remember when I was at university, I met a trans guy for the first time, and it just it blew [00:12:00] my mind that this guy was talking to me and he was like, Yeah, I was born a girl, blah, blah. I was like, What? I didn't know you could do that. What the hell? I thought it only went the other way. And that was the only story I'd ever been told and that it was a kind of trapped in the wrong body thing. And that wasn't how I felt. And the guy who I was talking to kind of was like, Yeah, nah, you know, I've just been transitioning to make myself feel more comfortable, and this is what works for me. And after that, [00:12:30] I was like, literally a million things just started clicking off into my in my head And I thought, This is this is makes sense for me. This makes complete sense. And I thought, I'm not going to spend another seven years like I did with sexuality, stuff of hating myself and not talking to people that I'm just gonna go with it. And I told my girlfriend at the time and just kind of started working out what made me comfortable. What? Didn't and it kind of all played into that and [00:13:00] part of that was around sexuality stuff. When I was, I got a really big crush on Giles from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and I couldn't explain it to anyone other than I really like Giles in a gay way. And they were like, I don't understand how can you be a lesbian and be attracted to Giles in a gay way? Who was a man? And and so when I was exploring the gender stuff, that was one of the click moments of like, Ah, OK, [00:13:30] if I'm attracted to someone and the dynamic is that we're both masculine people, then that makes that makes more sense. Um, so I don't That was how it kind of came into play that when I have relationships with people, whether they're boys, girls or gender, queer or whatever that mhm that it's, I don't think I could ever be in a straight relationship [00:14:00] that I'm just the dynamics that I really like is is a queer dynamic, Um, and like it was really interesting listening to other Trans guys stories where some trans guys really solidly identify as straight so they will transition to be a boy and only go out with women and I was like, OK, I can understand that I'm still attracted to women but I don't see my dynamics with them being straight. I don't know how to explain [00:14:30] it more than that, Um, and certainly when I'm going out with other guys, it's It's not straight. And yeah, Do you think it's easier or harder to, um, have names for these things, like, you know, trans and gay lesbian bla bla bla bla bla or I am just what I am I mean, how how do you feel about I mean, is it easy to have, like, these kind of labels that you can kind of gravitate to, Or is it easier just to [00:15:00] say, Well, it's completely fluid? That is an interesting question I think I use. I use labels strategically in that they're useful to a point. It's it's really helpful for me talking to my mum, for example of saying I am a trans man. I need male pronouns. I need you to call me by my boy name, and that's really important. It has clarity. It's It gives her a sense of where, how to how to be directive [00:15:30] and and what to tell other people and not have to necessarily expose a whole lot of really complex and vulnerable things about myself. And it's helpful for me, like in the workplace as well. If if people check in and they're like so you you use, he not, she and I can be like Yep, that's fine. This is good and treat me like a man because that's what I am. So I think that's that's helpful in terms of relating to people who might not have [00:16:00] a really complex or invested, um, knowledge or insight into fluidity of either gender or sexuality stuff. I think it's also something for me is to avoid those labels is something important as well. Of being able to relate to other people like me is really important that when I hear someone else say, Yeah, I don't know what my sexuality is, then I can be like Oh, good, I'm not the only one that it's It's really [00:16:30] nice for me to not have it all figured out and for it still to be a journey, and that there's something quite subversive about that that I really relate to, to be kind of like I don't know I Here's how I feel at the moment I'm in a relationship with this type of person, but that might change. And and maybe the words I use will change because they've already changed quite a lot in my life. So yeah, I think both both Both are [00:17:00] easy in different situations and both are hard in different situations as well. Talk to me about how the words have changed. I guess in terms of when I was growing up, when you're little and you're not thinking about these things, you're assumed to be CIS gender. So the same sex that you're assigned at birth, Um, and also straight. And for a long time I just assumed I was straight because I didn't know that I wasn't. And certainly when I was going [00:17:30] through high school and all the girls were talking about the boys that they had crushes on and I didn't relate, I thought, Well, maybe I'm asexuals. I don't really care about anyone else. I'm more excited about reading books because I'm a nerd. Um and then I use lesbian for a while, and I thought about using bisexual, but it just didn't feel right. And then I started thinking about guys in a gay way, and so I was like, maybe I'm gay and then [00:18:00] using Trans Men because I was transitioning from female to male. So I used that for a while, and I really like the word dyke, which is really odd. The more I look like a guy, the more I like throwing, in their words around my dark personality. Um, I like mostly I like that because it confuses people, I think, um, but yeah, those are are kind of handful, and queer [00:18:30] is is the easiest word to use. That kind of encompasses both how I feel about my gender and my sexuality, I think bent me. Those are just some of the words, No. Can you talk to me about, um, or describe me that feeling of not feeling right? You know, when something's not quite clicking in your life, you know, you were saying as a as a teenager, I'm trying to [00:19:00] kind of understand what that feeling feels like. Um, I think it's a feeling of it's kind of for me. It's a similar feeling for Win. I have a song stuck in my head, but I don't know what the lyrics are, but I know the tune, and I know the first couple of words, but I can't figure out what the next couple of words are, and I know I know it, but it's not unlocking. It's kind of that feeling. Or like [00:19:30] you're trying to think of the star of the movie and you can't You can almost taste his name or her name, but you can't quite grasp it yet. I think that's what the feeling was that it was. I know there's more, but I don't know what what it is, and it's not. I haven't had that hard moment yet. I think that's what it what it feels like. And when was that first moment? [00:20:00] I think with the gender stuff, it was certainly with the, um with talking to the Trans guy at university and just having the oh, people like me exist. I'm not crazy, that's great. Um, and I think I think with the, um before that in terms of sexuality stuff and liking women or girls because I was a girl then was happened [00:20:30] quite a few times before, it actually came into my consciousness like I remember I remember walking down the stairs and thinking about my aunt and being like, Yeah, I'm a lesbian too, And and that was the first time that it came into my consciousness. I remember actually having to sit down and, like, sit at the table and take 10 deep breaths and be like, Where did that thought come from? Or no, Um, but on hindsight, that had been kind of pushing itself to the [00:21:00] surface for quite a few years. In terms of the friendships that I had had, um, and the feelings I'd had for other other people in my class that I couldn't work out why they were different from other friendships because it wasn't like it was there, but I didn't have any words for it. So thinking about, um because you've done quite a lot of kind of youth work, how do you translate your experiences to, uh, like helping? How [00:21:30] how do you assist them in kind of coming to those realisations, I guess. Um, I think there's something about role modelling of like that. It's OK to not have all the answers and just being open. If you have answers, that's awesome. And if you don't That's also awesome. It's an exciting place to be. Um, I think also acknowledging that the time that I grew up in high school is drastically different from the time that people are in high school now and what it means like [00:22:00] and I'd like to think I'm reasonably young, but it's still such a such an amazing difference that's happened over the last 10 20 years in terms of representation on television and um in the media, what's talked about, Like I think when I was living in Tasmania, it was still they still had. It was illegal to be gay when I was growing up there, [00:22:30] which, you know, I was there from age 6 to 12 and it didn't it didn't have an impact on me because I didn't know. But it's funny to think about that now. And I went. I recently went back to Tasmania and visited and seemed like it was full of lesbians everywhere. It was so cute. But, um, I think the world is drastically different place as well, and I think that I I learn a lot from young people in terms of sexuality and gender stuff, particularly [00:23:00] around the words and terms that they use. Lesbian doesn't seem to be a word that a lot of what young women will use anymore. Um, and that, in fact, it seems like there's not a lot of it. Seems like there's a kind of almost commitment to being fluid and not having labels, which I personally relate to, So I think that's really nice. Um, but I I guess part of working with [00:23:30] young people is just learning from them and just kind of holding the space of the unknown, which is just that it's OK not to have it figured out, and, you know, you might not have it figured out until you're 87. I still don't have it figured out, and that's OK, Yeah. What about your family? How did they react? I guess it's been a long process that I remember writing them a letter when I was 21 and coming out [00:24:00] as a lesbian, and that was a kind of by that stage. I'd already really thought about it and gone through everything. And my brothers already had kind of figured it out, and we're like Well, yeah, obviously, and my mom and dad They said they didn't see it coming. But we're like, OK, well, whatever We still love you. We know what that is so and I think that was It was more shocking coming out as Trans later on, where it was a kind of [00:24:30] is more unknown, like they know my aunties, they love them and they know what that means within society. And I think it's a much scarier thing, particularly for trans men. In terms of that, there's there's just nothing out there in terms of trans trans guy stuff. Um, and I think Trans women have a whole different set of problems going on in terms of representations in the media, in terms of [00:25:00] the slew of negativity that happens, whereas the issues around Trans Men is that there is no representation going on. And so I think it's taken my family a bit more to work out. Well, what does that mean? And particularly only having brothers and no sisters? That and my brothers are all very kind of butch masculine people who really like playing football, and my mum was like, you're not going to turn into the [00:25:30] MIU and I was like, No, no I'm still the same and I still enjoy cooking, and I'm still going to go out to the theatre like my masculinity is very different from them, but that But I'm still masculine. I'm still a still a man, and I think that's just that's just taking a little bit longer to understand what that means and how to talk with it. Talk about that with each other and myself and with other people as well. So [00:26:00] it's about for me. I think it's about being patient and being generous that when I think about how long it's taken me to even articulate gender stuff in particular, then of course it's gonna take them a while as well. Um, and this stuff is scary when I feel like we're really good as a society in terms of talking about sexuality stuff. And, you know, even when you when you look at, um, marriage [00:26:30] equality and that the conversations that are happening around that they're all focused on lesbian and gay people being able to marry. When you when you actually look at the law and how it's been, um, worded, which is really great in terms of what? How Louisa wall has worded that stuff. Um, it's actually has some really important implications for trans people. So at the moment, if you're a trans person [00:27:00] and you're married and then you want to transition to the opposite sex, you have to get divorced if you're married to someone. So if you're say, you're a trans woman and you're legally male and you're married to a woman, if you want to successfully get an F on your birth certificate, you need to divorce the person that you're married to, and so like in order to get an F and then you're not allowed to marry them. So like and [00:27:30] that's a huge thing. It has huge implications for family. It has huge implications for how you feel about your relationship like, and I feel frustrated that those discussions get sidelined and get get forgotten quite a lot. And I think that has an impact in terms of for me personally. It has an impact on how my moms, for example, sees what [00:28:00] Trans is because we get forgotten quite a lot, and we get kind of seen as that, almost like the dirty little brother or the dirty little sister who is who is not, who's not as good as the others, which is really hard. I think that that when conversations play out, particularly in terms of queer marriage or marriage equality, that when you're talking about we're normal, we're just like you. It's [00:28:30] playing into that difference is bad thing, whereas actually what we should be saying is we're different and some of us want to get married, and that's really great and we should be supporting difference within our society. And difference means different different types of relationships, whether they're same sex, whether whether they're polyamorous, whether they're between trans people, whatever. And I feel like a lot of the conversations that happen within mainstream media are [00:29:00] really normative and and rely on the fact that gays and lesbians are normal and just like everyone else, as opposed to let's celebrate our differences. I totally forgot what the question was. Do you think that's a conscious decision on the promoters of the bill so that actually mainstream get it? Or do you think it's just it's just one of those you know, things that just happened? Um, it might be. And if if that is the [00:29:30] case, then I feel like I feel really disappointed, a disappointed in people promoting the bill, but also disappointed in the lack, the lack of trust for wider, for wider society, to get complexities in life and complexities in relationships. Um, I'm not sure. I don't know. I feel like lots of people will talk about marriage equality in really different ways, and I don't think it's just one group pushing for one agenda. [00:30:00] I think I think in terms of media, they like to simplify things down to the easiest thing. And I think that's a huge problem within media At the moment that we're not allowing for for complexities and conversations that we do like to scapegoat people, we do like to stereotype them, push them into small boxes. Um, I think it's incredibly disappointing, but I don't think it's. I don't think there's any one group to blame to say you're doing it wrong. [00:30:30] I just I feel disappointed with the end result. I guess if the marriage equality bill passes, what will that then mean? It will mean that the Trans people can marry whoever they want, which is great, and they can transition, and it won't affect their relationship status, which is fantastic, which is how it should be for everyone. I also think that in terms of how it's being framed, a lot of it is talking about This is our our last chance to [00:31:00] our last big hurdle to get through. And, you know, little, little brother Little sister in the corner is saying, Hey, Trans people are still not in the Human Rights Act like we've still got a few more hurdles, and also young people in schools are still being bullied relentlessly. Marriage is not going to change that. Like it might do a little bit for sure, but I think that by promoting it as the single issue and the issue that will [00:31:30] save us all is really short sighted. I, um, love this, uh, sense of energy I get from you. When? When When you're talking about these things, can you tell me about, um, your kind of energy and how you use that in kind of creative ways? Because not only do you obviously a very eloquent talker, but also you do you know, things like comic and graphic design. And, um, I'm really interested [00:32:00] in how you use energy in creative ways. Um, I think I started drawing because, like, thank you for saying that I am eloquent in my words because I don't feel eloquent in my words. And a lot of the time I just have to draw on a piece of paper to understand what I'm thinking. And so I think that's how it kind of came about. And it's really important for me to I really like comics as [00:32:30] a subversive art form and as a really queer art form, because it's not quite art, and it's not quite writing, and it's not quite ever taken seriously. But it has such a powerful impact, like if you just even if you just look at the editorial cartoons in the paper, the fact that they're in every single issue of the paper and they're really important to have there and, you know, in terms of the amount of space that it takes up, [00:33:00] it has such a such a much bigger impact, whether people agree with it or not, or it's still, it's still quite often invokes a response that's larger than a paragraph of writing. I feel, um, so that's that's what I like about comics in particular, and I use them as a way of sorting out my own thoughts and ideas as well as, um, as a way of [00:33:30] taking control of media and creating my own stuff. When I was in university, I was studying media and did my dissertation on representations of queer women in film, and it was really horrible. I said The film, like the topic I chose, was bad in that I looked at the film monster with Charlize Theron and was looking at her within the con, her character of a serial killer who is involved [00:34:00] with another woman and also has a really butch gender identity. And I was examining that character in relation to the history of representations of other queer women. And it just came to me that that when we embody difference quite often in mainstream media, if you embody too much difference, then you're seen as unstable, and that's either. It usually comes out as either violent towards others or violent towards yourself, in which [00:34:30] case, quite often they end up dying or killing someone or both, which is what happens and, um, monster happens in basic instinct happens in wild things like fried green tomatoes. Even those girls end up killing someone like even the movies that are heartwarming have have quite tragic and violent consequences. So part of me creating comics is about saying, No, I'm not going to I'm not [00:35:00] I'm not gonna take mainstream media as the only kind of media that I'm allowed to consume. I'm gonna create my own. And part of that came about because I read other people's Web comics and doodles, and that's how I help. That's what helped me find words for myself and realise that I wasn't alone. And so that's what I kind of use comics to create comics or stories that I want to hear and stories [00:35:30] that celebrate difference rather than say that difference will ultimately make you unstable, creating stuff yourself, um, that that, to me, feels like a A. You must get a great sense of empowerment from from doing that and and also publishing it, is it? I mean, is it hard to I mean, have you tried to be published by other publishers? Or do you just feel that actually, you're creating because know that's [00:36:00] what you do both. I think I create because I have to, and that's part of me staying alive and feeling good and feeling feeling human. Um, I don't think I could exist without writing comics and and telling stories. Uh, and I think I've also I've like, I've had little comics here and there in different books and things like that and have been [00:36:30] trying to to get a book published in which I've got a bunch of stories from, um, people that I interviewed that I wrote for my Masters, which is exploring this, my story and the stories of others about growing up and being queer, whatever that means for anyone. LGBT sexuality and gender diverse, um, identities in New Zealand. And it kind of covers [00:37:00] people with different sexualities genders across different times and across different places within New Zealand. And I think the the biggest problem in terms of getting that published is that a It's really hard to get a book published in New Zealand and B when it's a comic book and you need to print it in colour. It costs heaps of money, so I think that's that's where I can kind of keep getting stuck, and I keep saying, I'm going to do crowd funding like [00:37:30] set up a pledge, me or Kickstarter or something. But I'm just busy, so I feel like those stories will come out, and it's nice to have a website where I can put up some stories about myself on there. But I don't feel like I want to put the stories that other people have given me on there yet. Um, I'd rather keep that contained within the book. And if I if I can get that published, that would be great. Otherwise, [00:38:00] that would just be funny. What are your thoughts on, Um, when you are asking somebody else to give you their story? Um, I'm I'm wondering, can you talk about the the the the feeling of responsibility? You have to to hold on to that. Yeah, definitely. When I was doing my Masters, my proposal that I put in was I was going to tell stories about other people about being in New Zealand, and it was going to be great [00:38:30] and not about me at all. And as soon as I started asking the questions of different people and sitting down with the interviews, I thought, I can't do that It's not fair to put their vulnerabilities out there without my own and as well as the fact that it, as I was asking these questions, it became more. I became more and more aware that as I constructed this story physically, like drawing the panels [00:39:00] that my story was coming through in terms of my interpretation of that, whether that was how I drew them or which which parts of the story felt really important to highlight, um, it felt unethical to write their story without including mine alongside. And the way that the book works is that it's kind of about me creating a story and then reflecting back on the people that I've interviewed so [00:39:30] that that's ultimately how I felt like I could do it ethically was about not other people and saying, This is all about you, um, but actually saying, but actually using it as a conversation piece to say this is what I've got out of this story, and this is how I've constructed it, and this is what it means in terms of my stuff. So one of the stories is about a boy, um, growing up [00:40:00] and negotiating his relationship with God as a Christian person as well as his his queer queer identity and falling in love with another boy. And I felt like I couldn't tell that story without thinking about my own background and growing up as Catholic and what that did for me. And in this particular instance, the boy found a way to hold both at the same time. And I haven't so that felt [00:40:30] really important as a counter to include both to say, Yep, this guy's got it figured out and has and figured out how to make it work for him and for me. When I think about Christianity and my sexuality and gender, I that's where I have to part ways, um, and it, it feels like for me ethically, it was important to include both because I felt a real responsibility to say [00:41:00] I my story exists in relation to these other people and because I'm actively constructing their story, it's really important for the reader to understand the context in which I'm coming at it from as well publishing through a website. What kind of, um, feedback or interaction do you get with the audience? Um, positive? Mostly, [00:41:30] like just It's quite it's quite nice in terms of, um, writing a Web comic because there's the comments function, which means people can just write little sentences or whatever. I wrote a comic a couple of weeks ago about how I really identify with being in the Hufflepuff house in Harry Potter and I had about 20 comments of people being like I'm Raven Claw. No, I'm Slytherin or the sorting hat sorted me into Gryffindor and I hate it. It was really, [00:42:00] really nice, like just that kind of small, small, um, interaction that you get and people can feed off each other. And I that's That's one of the funniest things that I like about the Internet, that it can kind of build small conversations and that, um, it doesn't have to be kind of heavy or big essays or anything like that, but can just be a kind of starting point for for connections. Uh, I think [00:42:30] it's weird as well that lots of people know about me and Joe and will come up to us and see us in a cafe or at an event and be like they'll say to Joe Joe, I recognise you from your haircut, um, and then starts saying stuff about our lives that I'm like, How do they know that? And it's a weird feeling to know that they know a lot about us from my comics, but I don't necessarily know anything [00:43:00] about them. And I'm I'm very conscious about what I put up on the Internet and what I choose to talk about in the comics and what I don't And I check in with Joe around what's OK, stuff to put up and whether he feels comfortable. So it's a It's a very constructed identity that I have in terms of the rooster tales. Sam Orchard, Comic boy Identity. Um, but it is funny when it hits you back at real life, and they're like, I really know all about you. I'm, like, kind of but not [00:43:30] really. And it's Yeah, it's a It's a fascinating, fascinating thing. I think I have multiple real real identities as well of like my work persona and youth work, Sam and at Home Sam and Boyfriend Sam and whatever. So I feel like II. I feel like we're already all doing that anyway. But there's something [00:44:00] about the Internet that's different in terms of the longevity of stuff like once it's on the Internet, it's not. It's not coming down even when you think it's come down. It's not. And I think that's that's a really interesting place for discussions. And I think that yeah, know there's lots of discussions about how young people don't really know the consequences of their actions in terms of Facebook. And actually, I think [00:44:30] that's a lot of projection from adults because adults don't actually know the consequences because they haven't grown up with Web 2.0 whereas these young people do and they know about how to relate to people in different ways, and they know how to negotiate that stuff between real life, identity and non-real, life, identity or into their identities. Um, like that it is. It is fascinating and new, and I feel like I'm I'm part [00:45:00] of that kind of cusp generation who has had it like had it for most of their lives, certainly have had Internet since I was a teenager, but hasn't grown up with it fully embedded in the same way that my my younger brother has. I think there's some really awesome, awesome things about that. And there's also a lot of things that we haven't we haven't figured out yet. I suppose one of the things [00:45:30] with stuff being online basically forever once it's up, is that it's a way of, I guess, leaving your mark like I mean, you know, rather than being published in a in a physical copy that actually your material is there and will be there and yeah, that's right. 2000 years. We still Yeah, and it comes up in Weird Blaze as well. Like I remember I did a comic for a friend. It was just a little postcard image of John Key, and [00:46:00] I did it for his blog about 15 years ago, and it was only a small not even 15. It can't be that 10 years ago it was only a small little picture, and it just says, like John Key loves everyone or something. And now when you say it's John Key cartoon, it comes up as one of the top results. I was like, Oh, no, there's quite bad. It's a bad drawing as well, Like I look at it, I'm like, Oh, I really wish that didn't come up and didn't have my name attached to it. [00:46:30] But it's there, and I don't even know who's hosting it or anything like that. So, yeah, there's there's good. You can leave your mark in a good way, and you can also leave your mark in a way that's a little bit embarrassing. I think when you look at your work, when you look at your past work, um, are you able to look kind of objectively at it and go, Oh, that's so good. That was a good comic or that was not so good, I mean, or do you just not look at it? Or do you just go? Yeah, that's that's how it was. Um, no. [00:47:00] Mostly I look at it and cringe and think, Oh, the drawings are so bad. I'm so angsty. But then I try and think, No, this is just part of the story, and I try and remove myself from it. But mostly I just if I try and look back through old stuff, I just cringe and feel really embarrassed. But I try and tell myself that's all part of the [00:47:30] That's all part of it. I was reading, um, the big Collection of Alison Bechdel's dykes to watch out for the whole the whole series of it. And it was the same when when I was looking at the first few pages of her comic of that and the drawings were really rough, and she hadn't quite figured out how people were going to look, and if you kind of flick through it to the end, it was really polished. She'd obviously really gotten to know every line and dot of each of the characters. [00:48:00] And so it was. It's like watching Old Simpsons episodes where they just look weird. And then later on, there's a formula and a free to it. That is, they've got it sorted. So I I like to think of it in that There I am. Compare myself to Alison Big Dale. That's a so tell me a wee bit about your process in terms of of doing a cartoon when you're given a blank page, where we how how do [00:48:30] you? Um, uh, it depends for those detail. I just think What are the funny things that have happened to me this week? And sometimes it's really easy to think of funny things, and sometimes it's not, And I try and take it from a strengths based. That's really important for me, that I'm telling stories that make me laugh most of the time. And every now and again there's peppers of angst and sadness. [00:49:00] But mostly I try and take it from a These are the funny things about you know it. It's supposed to be about celebrating the differences in my life. Um so mostly it's just, I think, back of what what I've laughed at during the week and what can easily fit into four panels. It's hard to construct a story within just four panels, Um, and and then I have to check in with [00:49:30] Joe about whether it's OK to write or whoever I'm running the comic about as well. But yeah, mostly, it's just mostly, it's just about stories that make me laugh or things that are unexpected that I like. And then I sit down and put on really bad television and drew it. How do you distil down until say like 44 moments that you want to kind of capture in frames? I feel like I'm still working [00:50:00] on that like I'm not. I don't feel like I've got it down to an exact ability to do that, and maybe that's what makes me keep going because I want to make it good. Um, but I try and I try and concentrate on rhythm. Quite a lot of of how each panel reads in relation to each other and I'll try. And usually if someone else is around in the house, I'll get them to read it. So if [00:50:30] we have a guest, or if Joe's there, I'll get him to read it and watch how he reacts to different panels. So then I can tell if it's working or not. I always like the last panel to have, uh, the kind of main beat, but for me it feels yeah, it feels about a four beat kind of poem sort of thing. Do you find you can keep a sense of that beat after you've been working on something for for a couple [00:51:00] of hours? Or do you actually have to shot to someone else so that you can gauge if if it's actually working? Well, usually I write down, so I write down the script for it. Whether that's a thumb of a thumbnail drawing of someone screaming or putting their hands up. Or if it's the actual dialogue in the script, um, in the comics. And usually I can get a sense from that. I can kind of see it in my mind. And then usually, once it's once I've Once I've drawn it, I will [00:51:30] show it to someone else just to be like, Does that make sense to you? And if I'm by myself, then I just do it and then hope that it will make sense to some people. There's some really bad comics that I have up on Rested House that I just think no one is going to understand. I'm so weird. But usually I check in with other people or just hope for the best. Usually, if I can visualise it, then it makes sense for you. What is the kind of best or most rewarding [00:52:00] part of the process? Um, putting it out online. I think I think it's kind of like before I start a comic. I'm like, Oh, I have to do a comic. I I've made this commitment to do it, and I feel like I don't want to do it. Then I start doing it, and it feels like I get quite lost in it. Like quite often I forget to eat or forget that I'm cold. And then once that I've turned blue or something, I'm like, Oh, no. [00:52:30] So I kind of get lost in the process, which is really nice as an escapism kind of thing. Um, but then once I've got it done, I always want to put it up immediately. But I always try and save it for the weekend, so it's consistently once a week. But that's my favourite part of putting it up and saying Hey, everyone, it's up now and then waiting to see if anyone reads. It was my favourite part. Is it important for you to have an [00:53:00] audience, or is it important to to be creating stuff? It wasn't important to begin with, it was just important. It wasn't important to have an audience to begin with. It was just important to put it up. Um, but I think that shifted. I think I. I underestimated who who would read it like I actually thought that it was just going to be Joe because I would force him to click on it Um and so I think more and more I've been relying on [00:53:30] people to that I can connect with. That feels like the most important part now of realising that there's lots of people out there who are weird, who are nerdy, who are gay, who are queer, who are trans or who are whatever way they relate to it. Um who like cats, That's the I think I think that's what I get out of it Now is less about creating it because I have to, because [00:54:00] I'm always gonna be creating comics. I think now whether I put them up online or not. But I think that actually putting it out online is because I like to feel connected to people and because I'm so like I'm quite socially awkward and shy in general that this is a nice, safe way to connect with people on my own terms. Hm. I'm thinking that you, uh from what you've been saying, you know very much into celebrating different [00:54:30] and celebrating. Um, the uniqueness of people. How do you try and convince people that that are that don't see the world in that way to actually kind of maybe take a step in that direction just to kind of people more open. What are ways that we can, you know, make people a bit more open? I think I rely on the comics themselves to do that in the way that I draw them. They're quite happy and easy [00:55:00] to look at. And and because the comics itself is a kind of subversive medium, I feel like I can get a lot of complex ideas across without people realising it. And it's quite sneaky, Um, that it looks it. It looks like a kind of kids drawing kind of childlike medium, and there's not too much lines or it's not heavy in the way that I draw it. So it looks easy to read. [00:55:30] And so suddenly people are realising that they're laughing with someone who likes Harry Potter, who happens to also be a queer trans man who's going out with a gender queer guy like, I think that that's how I do it, or that's what I try and do that, of course you know there is. There's needs to be a certain type of acceptance to begin with and that who's going to turn up on a comic blog for a Trans guy if they're not already [00:56:00] thinking about that stuff or kind of connected them with things. But I think in terms of accessibility, it's just that strength based stuff is important of that. Our difference is good because everyone feels a bit different. I think in in whatever way, because I'm not entirely convinced that there is anything that's completely normal about anyone. So I think if they can latch [00:56:30] on to any sort of difference and know that that's a good thing, then they'll relate. Yeah, and I think taking it from the strength space and from with the point of view of laughter as opposed to anger, even though anger is important in certain context, too, that's what I try and take it with. I've been watching lots of episodes of Ellen lately, and I've been watching the old nineties sitcom [00:57:00] and it's really it's really interesting to me how she uses humour in a really strange way and making fun of herself without making fun of other people. And I really relate to that kind of humour and I really like it that we can laugh at ourselves for being gay or for being queer, and that's a way of bringing people closer without laughing at someone because they're different from us or [00:57:30] that they're wrong in some way laughing at ourselves because we're all flawed or we're all awesome or we're all different or whatever.
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