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OK, Well, I was born in the Bronx, New York, in 1944 and, uh, it was kind of an out of it doesn't exist anymore, that area, because it was a sort of Jewish neighbourhood. Um, I've read recently that one out of every two people in the Bronx at the time I was growing up was Jewish. And it was like that. Um uh, like all the Jewish holidays were observed and [00:00:30] you couldn't buy bread for Passover. You know, all the storekeepers were Jewish. I mean, the other the non Jews just had to eat Jewish, that's all. And, uh, and it made for interesting things with the few non Jews like we used to play monopoly for the best religion. Right? And things like that. You know, there were high stakes in the world, but, um yeah, and so they were a group of survivors of the Holocaust. And, um, I was the American [00:01:00] born one in my family. Uh, my brothers had been born in Europe and brought with my mother, um, in December 1938. And, uh, but then everyone in their family, um, all my grandparents and, uh, you know, aunts and uncles and people. I don't even know their names. They were all murdered at Auschwitz. And, uh, I think that had a certain kind of, uh, um, [00:01:30] significant impact on my life. Firstly, I grew up with people who just you They lived life and death all the time, every second of their lives. You just had to When they said go, you had to go. And so if you tended to pause and say, Well, I don't know, this doesn't make much sense to me. It was not an allowable statement. You just had to listen, and, uh, it it was very there was a tremendous amount of anxiety. Uh, nobody [00:02:00] helped them, you know, they just had to live with those losses. And, uh, we were the only non consequential targets that they could take that out on, Um, all that anger, uh, that they couldn't get in touch with. I mean, that could have worked and earned money and, uh, feed their family blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, So it was an interesting place to grow up. The, [00:02:30] uh I have two brothers, one of whom, uh, they were born in Europe, and, uh, definitely that seared their consciousness. Especially, um, my brother C, who's the middle one, who just, you know, he's a kind of high achieving sociopath. Um, I say that endearing way. I've gotten to like him over [00:03:00] time, but I still don't trust him when we're both drunk in a room together. So, uh, and maybe everybody has a brother like that or somebody. He, uh you know, I grew up in a really violent home, And one of the things that I've done in New Zealand, I think, you know, is to become a comedian on legal issues and, uh, combine a kind of New York humour with, uh, my [00:03:30] anger at what happens in the legal system, especially for women and gays. And, um so there's a lot about my family that has to do with that. My, um my brother, he, uh we grew up with the question. Why didn't the Jews fight back? Everyone else in the world would have done it. We didn't do it. What the fuck is wrong with us? So my brother decided he would answer that question, you know, by [00:04:00] by putting everybody in their place. And the trouble is as the youngest in the family. He had to perfect some of his tactics before he took it to the street. And, uh, you know, I was there and again as a totally consequence free target of, uh, whatever he was trying to learn that week. So, yeah, there was a lot of that, Kind of, uh, I was saying so I've worked on domestic [00:04:30] violence issues, like, uh, I was interested in them, you know? And one time I was getting an award, and there were all these judges there and everything, and it brings out the worst of me. I mean, I came a dog to be a juvenile delinquent. You know, I because I took that issue, You know, my mother believed we all grew up with binaries. Heart called black and white in my family was Jewish, not Jewish. You know, that was the first question, you know, Jewish. Not Jewish anyway, But, [00:05:00] uh, she never questioned male female, you know, and I just took it to a new height. You know, like, uh um, I went beyond her binaries, and, uh, she I my first lover was a doctor, but not Jewish and woman. And you know, I said, but you always want to be to have a doctor, you know? But really, there was she, uh, Well, anyway, it was funny just to do that, but, uh, one time I was getting [00:05:30] this award for domestic violence, something or other. And, uh, there were all of these, really, you know, kind of judges, etcetera where they are. And it, as I said, it brings out the word to me, and, uh, I, uh I got up, and it's sort of like they they do this. It's like a eulogy, you know? So in some ways, you do have to fight back because you think you're dead, right? And at some point, I said, uh, [00:06:00] you know, I feel just like Grace Kelly, you know, winning for the country. Girl. I, uh, want to give my acceptance speech. Every woman has an acceptance speech. I just wanna thank my father, who knocked me around about a million times and gave me an interest in this topic. You know, like Spielberg. He got a brownie hawk eye when he was 11. And that's what made him whatever. I had an interest in this topic developed it just wasn't a Brownie [00:06:30] Hawk eye, that's all. And so, you know, my brother and my husband, you know, they've taken these things to a North. I think it's important to stress that I'm not a lesbian because I don't like men. I have two sons. I adore men. I've always had a guy. Even my I have. I hate to admit this, but I always have a student I adore in class. You know, I don't think I treat unfairly, but there's usually somebody there, and it's always a [00:07:00] young man of a certain age that I, you know, find, uh, you know, just so story or so people would think I only favoured the women, but actually and I guess it's because of my sons. You know, I, uh I don't see them very much, and, uh, I miss them. So I kind of, you know, find these guys who radiate this chemistry or something. And I am quite, uh, another harass. I just kind of enjoy the company anyway, [00:07:30] So, yeah, that's how I grew up. I grew up and it was scary, some of it because, like I was telling someone recently that we I grew up in a five story apartment building in the Bronx. And, uh, like we had a giant furnace in the basement and I wouldn't go and hide there during hiding seek because it was like we had agreement to worry him right in our basement. It was like everything [00:08:00] was unreal. There was this world that you went to school. You did well at school. You did all of the stuff and but this real thing and somehow contained a crematorium and placement. And, uh, it just really moulded my life. And I think one last thing before you come in, um, I didn't have as many privileges as, uh, some of the other people, like, you know, I went to, uh, university [00:08:30] with women who'd been to prep school. It was a lot for them to come out. They had a lot of a long way to fall, you know, And my family we were on to mention from the beginning we were subhuman. In some definition by society. I could be anyone I wanted. It's a terrible thing, but that's one of the freedoms. It was a privilege to grow up with them. Despite all the things that we can say [00:09:00] because you had a first thing. They had their own idealism. And to see that people could maintain that in the face of what they went through was extraordinary and very life affirming. They also believed and seized the day. You know, like you didn't know what was gonna happen. I I've often said, You know, one of the worst things about growing up in a Holocaust of family is that you don't save for your retirement. You know, like why to die with money in the bank. [00:09:30] That would be the worst, right? So, I mean, you don't spend anything and everything and just live. You know, my mother used to say just grand life, and so I did. And being a dyke was part of that. I once saw Janis Joplin sing just before she died. I went with my husband. I was married. I had two Children. I May I [00:10:00] I think I only had two Children then. Jeremy wasn't born yet, and she was drinking up there, and at some point she said it was raining and she said, Uh, don't let me die in New Haven, Connecticut, you know, like get electrocuted through all of this. Uh uh, you know, electricity and wires and they don't let me die anyway from Connecticut. And I looked at this guy and [00:10:30] I thought, Don't let me die in New Haven, Connecticut. And so I came out instead. Can you describe for me what it was like growing up when all of your family history is somewhere else in In in Europe? How did how did you find a sense of place? That's an interesting question. I was a mediaeval history, major. Partly [00:11:00] because I thought there was a kind of, uh, you know, as in the States, we do an undergraduate degree, and then I went to law school. So I majored in mediaeval history for exactly for looking. And my whole search has been for a place. And look at this. I mean, here, I, uh I moved. I was born in the Bronx. I moved to Vancouver. Uh, British Columbia. I lived there for 10 years. I came here to New Zealand. I've been here for 25 years. Um, [00:11:30] I, I know how to migrate because that that involves a certain skill being able to relocate. And, uh um, the only trouble with my family is they kept thinking they'd have to relocate, you know, immediately and kept waiting to see when that song was, And so they were quite hyper vigilant. But, uh, for me, I've learned how to move. And, uh, but my search has always been like, [00:12:00] you know, when life has really changed. So things like Google map exist in my life. When you know, you may think that's when I first came to New Zealand. It took 10 days for a letter to get to, uh, to New York and then 10 days to come back. Who even remembered what you've written in that time? The answers were so it was $3 a minute, and that was even cheap. But at one point I remember I had a long term relationship [00:12:30] with a woman in Montreal. I could have gone to Montreal for the phone calls every month, you know, it was so stupid. But anyway, I guess everybody who's had those long term relationships those it would be a lot cheaper now, But, uh, I, uh I think that I just I used to hunger. The net has changed my life. My ability to live here my the sound of people's voices. I listen to WNYC [00:13:00] every day I do The New York Times crossword puzzle. Life is easier One time when I first came here, I saw a copy on a Wellington street of a three week old Sunday New York Times, and they wanted $29 for it. Even now, I couldn't do it. I couldn't buy it. It was just too big, you know, like but But so now there's something called Google map. And [00:13:30] the first time I looked up their town and actually saw that there was a place really called that that it had a red dot next to this name. It's like I couldn't even believe it. It was like, uh, I always thought it was something out of, you know, like, uh, fiddler on the roof. You know, like some Imagineer. [00:14:00] It was a place that was scary, that had lots of questions. I didn't learn my father's mother's name, my paternal grandmother's name till I was 46 years old. Uh, you know, you think I never asked and, uh, my mother would say, Oh, Ruthie, it's such a long time ago. Who can remember these things. Uh, and what I realised [00:14:30] over time is it was like Lot's wife. She had to keep looking for her if she turned back, if any of them look backward, they would have died from their tears, turned to salt, and that was their lesson to us was to keep going. But when I saw there was a place, I couldn't believe it. And then, [00:15:00] you know, whoever made Google. Thank you. Um, my parents were married in 1935 by the rabbi of Known as the Rebbe, and there's a video of him on you can Google it and he's wearing this feral cap on his head, and he's saying in Yiddish, which right, [00:15:30] I understand because that's my first language and he's shaking his finger and he's telling them to obey the and keep it holy. And when I was writing my last work on domestic violence in this country, I'd already found him, and I used him shaking his finger at me as my screen saver to keep me going, you know, like every time I thought I could [00:16:00] stop so sorry and you know, bla bla bla Well, it worked right? I had a stroke right after that. So I'm not saying what the causes were. But lots of times, when you grow up in my culture, you don't care about the cause. You just kind of go for that, you know, kick a goal in the last three seconds, you know, kind of moment. So, uh, I guess I'm still waiting to do that, but yeah. [00:16:30] So as a child, when you were asking questions like that and just and and you weren't getting answered, I mean, how, uh, but sometimes you did get answered, and that was worse. There were two ways they could be worse. Like I was blonde and blue eyed, and my parents and my brothers were dark eyed and dark haired. So right, I'm three years old, and I say to my mother, Was I adopted, You know, Look, everybody blond and I'm blonde, blue eyed. She said, Adapted. [00:17:00] Ruthie, we didn't want you in the place. Your father was making $9 a week. We had, you know, uh, four mouths to feed in a little apartment in the Bronx. So when you learned not to ask certain questions because she could say we wouldn't want you, We would never have adapted to it. They want you at all. So of course he didn't only mean that, you know, like, uh but you have to realise, this Jews aren't literal. Everything [00:17:30] isn't terrible, you know? And all this literal rule stuff, it's just bullshit. Any Jew can tell you that. You know, we don't believe in any of that stuff anyway, Um, but I won't do a riff on Judeo Christian anything but, um, yeah, so one or two and words really was that they could blurt out things that were terrifying. Uh, so you'd say you'd ask a question. And this happened just recently because, [00:18:00] uh, there was one photograph of my father's family. Um, and I didn't know several. It would have been his brothers and sisters and their husbands. Uh, I didn't know a lot of the people in the thing, so of course I'd say, Well, who was that? And, uh, you could get that from there to they put them into the oven. Some of them were alive in no time at all. And, uh, so the answers [00:18:30] were, you know, I went through a thing about how Hans Andre was a metaphor for my life, right? And, uh, that idea that they put them in the oven, the only thing they didn't do was fatten them up. But they did. You know, um, I have a cousin that I found There's, um, something called Jewish gen dot org. And it's like a genealogy thing. And [00:19:00] you can type in like a surname and a like a little town and, um, a country. And that's the hardest You have to type in the country. It's really in now, like my parents grew up and identified as Czech. But the what they grew up is now the Ukraine. So you know, So you had to get Ukraine, and you know that all of that gets confusing. But if you can type this threesome in, and if anybody [00:19:30] else is looking for that same reason, they put you in contact like it's amazing and someone was looking. And it was my cousin Meyer that we didn't know had lived through the war, right? I mean, everybody got separated and things, and he was with them at Auschwitz as a teenager, and he lived, you know, because they weren't rounded up till June 44. And so [00:20:00] if you were lucky and you you know, then you could maybe live. It was only a year more. I mean, Frank at on June 44 they got typhus. They were unlucky. But it was that possibility of the of living. And he did. And, uh, he had been there. Indeed. I couldn't believe it. I did this except for one phone call I had with him. It was all via [00:20:30] the net and it would be at work. I didn't have a home computer then, and I would be a wash with feelings and stumble in next door. I also broke a relationship at work, so they've heard a lot from me, but anyway, but he's He told the story about the because I don't know anything about my paternal grandmother. And he he'd known [00:21:00] her. He was a teenager, so I asked him questions. You know, the question of where she died was the least important question. I always knew that actually, I didn't. But for a long time I knew she died at a but what It was like You say you have a place of location. But even what? These people what would they have thought of a lesbian [00:21:30] granddaughter? What do you think? You know, like I carried their MIT at her mitochondrial genes. You know, I had no idea anything about her, but he did know. And he said to me, Firstly, I found it so moving, uh, that these Jewish men, they spoke Yiddish, and they came on to the train cars when they got to Auschwitz, and they said to them, [00:22:00] which was my family, Uh, give the Children to the old women and they couldn't understand what they were talking about. And they said, No, give the Children to the old women. And it was, of course, because they were going to kill the Children. They were going to kill the old women. So the only chance that the young mothers had was to give the Children to the old women. I mean, it's so obvious [00:22:30] they were helping them. Couldn't you get angry? The times I wanted to pick up a new, but I never said anything, and I'm against violence. But see, my brother got right into that anger. That's what made him so tough. Because I can feel it too. [00:23:00] Anyway, he said, the last time he saw my grandmother, she was surrounded by all of her grandchildren. I was already alive in the Bronx. I am one of her grandchildren. It fell to me to tell their story in a way that listen, because they were no bodies. They had no money. [00:23:30] They weren't rich. They weren't Rogers. They never went to school. They were people. And they certainly didn't deserve summary executions. I became a lawyer, fought for justice. Not very well, most of the time, but I, I everything I am I [00:24:00] brought from there from that surrounded by her grandchildren. No, I'm one of her grandchildren, you know, and my Children's Children. So I think it was, um you invented a lot of things. Like because they were so violent. [00:24:30] Uh, like we didn't have a lock on our bathroom door because, uh, I don't know. You know, somebody had antagonised my father about something, and I didn't in the bathroom and locked the door. That was stupid. I mean, you were never gonna That was so easy. We learned how to be can and while because walking the door was never gonna set any limits, you know? Anyway, so uh, [00:25:00] the, uh they were just, uh you know, it was a different place to grow, but they also, you know, they supported me. I went into when I went into the civil rights kind of stuff in the sixties, and, uh, my mother couldn't believe letting dogs loose on people in Birmingham, Alabama. You know, she just couldn't believe it. I mean, you know, they had a sense. My father [00:25:30] went to vote as early before he went to work. He unloaded trucks before there were forklifts. It was my father, you know, in the, uh, Washington market in the Bronx. You know, just he was cheaper than buying a forklift. I'm sure that's what he did it, but he had no education. And but he went to vote, you know, at five in the morning or something. As soon as the polls opened, they they were believers who had kind of, um [00:26:00] So that's what we grew up to be, too, I think. And, uh, you know, I When, uh when I first wrote a report on domestic violence in this country in 1990 two, I think it was published 93 and the government centred that report. I have a copy of it here. They drew lines through it, uh, which they didn't want to publish to keep like, uh, the names of the judges, uh, private, and to [00:26:30] take out some of the decisions that were just so misogynistic. We alone. You don't do that to me from the family that I come from. I had stories of women who had told me their lives, and I had a responsibility. So I, uh, published [00:27:00] took $1700 and published 100 copies of the volume of my report with the lines through it. When I handed them out, I said, You literally have to read between the lines to figure out what we wanted to say. And, of course, everyone flocked to hear what the government and I used to read it to them at conferences. And, you know, it came right from [00:27:30] there, right? Like I had been entrusted with these stories and I was gonna Nobody was going to tell me I couldn't do it. They used to say, um Doug Graham and things he used to say, Oh, they're breaching crown copyright, blah blah, blah. You know, I I'd say they're gonna put us in jail, you know? Look at me, man. If they put us in jail, I'm gonna starve to death, bring food, you know? And we had such a I enjoyed playing with [00:28:00] them. I worked with this guy, Neville Robertson, who's just a wonderful man. And he's about 6 ft tall. You know, it was really funny, like, right. I was the former battered woman who wrote about battering from the very legal position. And Neville, he was really seen as just a gender traitor, you know, like he wore him much worse than I did. I mean, I really love that guy. And I used to run behind him. He said this tall guy I used to do the gorilla runs and run out, you know, [00:28:30] say these kind of crazy kind of things, hopefully hurting their feelings, right. And then he used to I used to run back and stand behind, and he used to say, we are the conscience and critic of society, and I'd go, Yeah, that's right. Listen to him, you know, because my whole sense of state power was they could kill you, right? Whereas Neville, you know, he'd grown up as a, uh, a farmer son, you know, [00:29:00] in inheriting the farm, he he had a sense of, but they couldn't just do anything. And together we were a great modern Jeffery team because he brought all the psycho to to it all. Uh, I'm wondering, back in the Bronx, growing up, I mean, did you find there was discrimination against you or your family? Well, um I went to a, um I went on a full scholarship [00:29:30] to a place called Gauer College, which was kind of like, uh, an all women's was really a great place to go. And, um when, like they had, they didn't want to be. They were in Baltimore. They didn't want to be known as a Jewish school, right? So they had a kind of a quota on the number of Jews, but it wasn't an affirmative action quota like it was like, no more than, uh I don't know, 15 or 20% can be Jewish, because otherwise [00:30:00] it'll tip over, and we'll have a So there was, uh, on that level of no merit. You know, I, I just love it when these people now so pontifical, you know, they pontificated about us? Yeah, affirmative action. Which I really believe in. I mean, they've been exerting their own form of, you know, um, negative action and gatekeeping for so long, right? Uh, just like women getting into the legal profession. Now, it's more than you know. When [00:30:30] I went into, uh, in law school, there were nine women in my class out of 218. And, uh, if you narrowed that to women who had Children because I had two Children when I went into law school, there would have been maybe three of us, you know, And, uh, when Sylvia Cartwright went to law school here in New Zealand, my understanding is that her criminal law professor refused to talk about rape because he couldn't discuss an issue like that in [00:31:00] front of women. You know, like, you know, it It went along, right? You know, when I came to this country the most shocking And I don't know what it is for gay men here, but, you know, was, uh, must be who come from overseas. Must be a riot. Um, I went to the, uh, War Memorial Museum and all of these famous Greek statues, like black I remember that famous one. You know, they all have little fig leaves off over their penises. And so I mean, I just I I've seen [00:31:30] the originals right at the the Metro Museum of Art or something in New York. And it was just wherever Florence, Right? And, uh, you know, it's that whole kind of just that a whole shame based, um, I you know, it's so different. Of course. I came here from Vancouver. No wonder it was different. Everybody who couldn't live at any place else in Canada went to Vancouver, [00:32:00] right? So we had a preselected, wonderful group of people. Except So So what prompted you to get into the law? Well, firstly, by the time I went to law school, I really knew I had to get out of that marriage. You know, it was like, maybe post Janis Joplin. You know, I mean, I just couldn't die there. Um well, you see, I've had this and I. I don't know how many [00:32:30] women have had this. I had this kind of baptism into into adolescent lesbianism when I was about 16, and I went away to university, and I immediately fell in with these prep to dikes, right? Who were much more sophisticated than me. They, you know, they've been in in resident. You know, um, I forget what you call it, but, you know, they went to private school and they slept over there and things, [00:33:00] and they and they just were So, you know, I just was came as a babe in the woods. I'm not saying they did bad things to me, but, uh, because they didn't And, uh, it was really good, but it was too scary. I was there on a full scholarship. Uh, we saw one teacher get thrown out for kind of, uh, making it with a student on the library step. You had to believe that she maybe wanted to be thrown out, and the student got thrown out, too. And anyway, they just couldn't [00:33:30] have said. Told my parents I was thrown out for being a lesbian. They just they would have murdered me. There was no like that. Scholarship was my ticket out of a really violent family. And, um, II I couldn't play with it. Um, and so I sort of got involved with this woman and I, I guess, of all of the lovers. I've had it. The one I'm most ashamed of because I went away. You know, I went away to, [00:34:00] um, like for the Christmas holiday and I I had tried to find. I went down to Greenwich Village and I went looking for lesbians, but of course, I had no idea, except for the butt images of what a lesbian might look like. Right? So, I mean, I could have been seeing hundreds. I wouldn't have had a clue because they had to have, you know, tattoos up and down their arms and moustaches for me to think they would be then. So I didn't see any. And I didn't. That wasn't the image [00:34:30] I was kind of cultivating for myself at the moment. So, um, I never talked to her again. I just couldn't. I mean, I had a brother who, uh, want to beat the shit out of me for coming home late from a date with a boy to a jazz festival. You know, he was waiting downstairs, Uh um, outside the building. And when I came out with the car, I never called again. I'll tell you that. You know, like my [00:35:00] date but, uh, you just couldn't. There were There seemed to be lines you and I realised in some ways there were lines. As soon as I gave my mother, uh, grandchildren and Jewish grandchildren, Uh, like, uh, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't as maybe it's valuable a commodity. Or at least I could have a bit more freedom. I don't know. Yeah, more like I was, [00:35:30] uh, I'd sort of done what I had to do. And now I could go though The worst thing once with my mother, you know, eventually got at her best. She got to the point of thinking I was crazy and still wished me well, right, But by coming out, But, um, she never, uh, you know, when she Well, she never rooted for me when the relationship was in trouble. She You know, every time I broke up with somebody, she thought maybe [00:36:00] I'd come back and and I have a funny story about how I once almost did. Not really, but, uh, where she thought so. But anyway, um, she So she loved my Children. And I have to say that just before she died in 93. So my son mark is about 46. Right now, I have three kids, and, uh, she said to me, Ruthie, you did a good job [00:36:30] with your Children, and I just wept. I had never believed I hear that all along It. So are you crazy? What are you doing? You can go to school, Ruthie. Once the Children finish high school, they need a mother at home kind of stuff. You know, she told everybody she was proud of me as a lawyer, but I never heard that. It was like, Oh, you're not being a good mother. But she was a Jewish mother. But so one day, Jeremy, she [00:37:00] said to Jeremy, She said, What do you want to be when you grow up? And he said, at age five, a lesbian, right? At which point she Because I was kind of in the midst of coming out, everything was you know, this is paradise. This is the best. This is certainly all the dining room conversation we've been having. He just thought it was great. All these women who were so good to him in his life because for women who didn't have Children [00:37:30] bringing these Children in for a lot of them, you know, But, like, he was always successful at selling brownies so he could go to camp every time in the hail and bought dozens of them from him. You know, those those kids had, uh I think they they had a loving life, and then they had that homophobia that they had to deal with. It was, I think, confusing and hard. I didn't really understand until much later. How much shit, especially [00:38:00] Jeremy got from my being a dog I. I mean, And maybe it's just as well, because maybe I would have chosen differently. I certainly didn't expect my Children to wear my choices were kids, you know, they'll go for anything, you know, And so that was so easy. So he used to like, in one case, I wanted him to wear a helmet. Uh, when he rode his bike before it was, uh you know, [00:38:30] I mean, he's 38 now, so, you know, when he was about 15 or 16, and, um, in in the end, um, I realised because people told me that he would go out wearing his helmet, and then he'd take it off and and go to school and everything right. And it was because they were calling him a fag because he was wearing a helmet, and that meant and his mother was a dog, that he was a bag and blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And [00:39:00] at some point, I said, Look, I've heard that you're not wearing your helmet, and if you're not going to, you can ride your bike, which was his principal means of transportation. He said, Well, I won't ride it. And I thought, Oh, no, this is too big. You know, I thought, you know, like, what is going on? And I really did learn that he was being mercilessly teased for nothing, you know, because, uh, because of me. So, um, you know, I felt really bad, so he didn't have to wear his helmet. Luckily, never killed himself. [00:39:30] But you know how stupid these choices, you know, And his first girlfriend, her mother was a lesbian, and somewhere he was away at sleep away camp and there was a discussion and she had sort of said something that was less homophobic and he'd heard it and they talked and he told me like it. It's like he realised they were lesbians, like her mother. And eventually they [00:40:00] all said it. But it was. But sometimes I wish because we've had a lot of things on lesbian Children. We should really do that sort of intergenerational and listen to it. It wasn't as easy, you know, like, we like to tell the success stories. Because, of course, the world out there doesn't believe they exist, you know? And yes, I have a son with a PhD. You know, I have a son with a you know, whatever. Um, I forget what they're called now, [00:40:30] but from, uh, from the University of Chicago, he has a masters of business, and, you know, I have very high achieving Children. And so for a long time, we needed just to prove that that our kids could achieve so that they wouldn't take them away from us. You know, I, I spent years when I was first a lawyer in the Well in 79 when I came out for at least three or four years, every lunchtime with [00:41:00] my gay lawyer partner, Richard Brill. We used to run my lesbian custody case. You know who I would call what I would do like to that, too. And you said, Well, I was with a Bacher and he would have gotten custody before I would have. I mean, I don't think we can believe that now, But I know that because I went [00:41:30] to a conference in Canada where we were talking about a recognition of whatever same sex relationships of the legal conference run by the Upper Law Society of Canada. And, uh, when I talked about, uh, the kids and this and then what happened, uh, one of the, um, law professors from Queen's University came over and said, You know, I doubt whether they would have even give, allowed you to see those Children. So I mean, as between a batter and [00:42:00] a dyke. I mean and not not only that, but that was where I worked. I was a lawyer, so outing myself within that workplace was really at that moment. Uh, quite scary and, uh, fraught with retribution. I think so. And, you know, like I went to a therapist when I was first coming out, this woman [00:42:30] who was known as a feminist and who eventually came out, and at one point she said, to me. I was paying for this. At one point she said to me, I don't think you're a lesbian, Ruth. You love your Children too much, and it's like I didn't go back after that. I mean it. The It was crazy, right? It was like, I guess all of that American psychiatric stuff and [00:43:00] everything, but, um, it was really only that he self destructed and just became a drunk. Um, my husband that, uh, that I shot my Children. Nothing to do with that. I was a reasonable mother or one of the first lawyers. You know that and you know nothing. It's just that he couldn't manage. So, uh, I just and in fact, I, I brought them to this country, [00:43:30] um, on just a one year permission. But he was into so self-destruction by then that I knew he would never come and get me. And like, even though and it was before The Hague convention, he couldn't get them back to Canada. So once he saw, uh, consent for me to come here for a year. Um, it meant I was here with them, and they weren't going to revoke that. But now you couldn't do that Run, [00:44:00] you know? So, um, it was crazy. So you got into a situation like I actually married a guy. Were you allowed to say this? I didn't know he died, so I'll just, uh, to stay here. And I love her. She married his lover, Um, and when I thought about it, I thought, you know, there was no money or anything. It was just a swap, you know, like, we didn't have a double wedding, But we went up to the Alex, you know, when it was still on Federal Street, Um, [00:44:30] and a lesbian pub. And we had a big celebration afterwards. It was quite crazy, but, uh, because he had got nastier over time. But, um, there was no way to stay here, like could sponsor a guy that she said she'd met two months before who didn't speak English particularly. And, you know, and who luckily could hide behind He was a lovely man. Could hide behind their own racial stereotypes [00:45:00] so that they if he grinned at them, that was all that mattered. She could, but we'd been together for eight years, and she couldn't sponsor me to come to this country. And it was before they were giving those, uh, you know, work visas and things. Yeah, And Marilyn, we we went to see her, and she just said, Well, find somebody and get married. That's the only thing you can do. So, uh, yeah, I mean, just that kind of constant state interference or state lack of support. Um, [00:45:30] was, uh, you know, it was just omnipresent. Plus, we all knew about the Sharon Kowalski case, and we all knew, you know, that, uh, anyway, it was probably after stonewall. It was probably one of the first, uh, would have been in the mid seventies or late seventies. I can't. Maybe even early eighties. Sharon Kowalski was a woman who had a I can't remember her lover's name very long term lover who was a, you know, physiotherapist [00:46:00] or something. And Sharon Kowalski was severely injured in a traffic accident. And her lover, um, it took years for, like her parents. Kowalski's parents barred her lover from the hospital, and she had to eventually be appointed a. But that took many years. And it was like her parents. Sharon Kowalski's parents preferred that their daughter be back watered and zero rather than get better [00:46:30] with her lover, right? And so there were these free Sharon Kowalski, demonstrations all over. You know, Uh, uh, the state Like I mean, that was such a palpable how you know, And we had cases here, too, of women who died whose lovers were banned from the funerals, whose parents came along and took everything or, you know, evicted. I mean, [00:47:00] these were things we knew could happen. And, uh, there were very few remedies. So you like this for for a while? I decided, um, I didn't want to just work on domestic violence anymore, so I should work on gay issues. Right? And, uh, So I, uh, I wrote an article, and it's called practising down under, you know, gays and lesbians and the law in New Zealand, you know? And I loved [00:47:30] it, you know? What do we do? We practise down under, you know? And that reminded me. Did you ever see, um, soap. Did you ever see it was a wonderful, um, Billy Crystal was in it, and he played a gay guy in it who had fathered a child and was going for custody of that child and uh, the lawyer, you know, for the other side said, Are you a practising homosexual? [00:48:00] And he said, I do it so well, I don't have to practise anymore, you know? And, uh, so that's a practising down under. You know what did you know? Uh, I like to make fun of it. I like to know it. You know, at my funeral, I want them to play Leonard Cohen singing. They sentenced me to 20 years of boredom, you know, trying [00:48:30] to change the system from within. You know, I got 40 years. 20 years is nothing, you know? I mean, there's more to it. It's not. It's not the full statement, but, uh, you just need to act out sometimes because you need to put yourself into I don't know, like you. It's a really interesting [00:49:00] thing. I'm sure it's like what being a Maori bicultural person in this society is. You know, you just you have to observe like, um, the guy that I married now we had to go to immigration or the Labour Department or something and have an interview to show that we were, you know, really married and not just, um, gays and dogs trying to get into this country And, uh, a friend of mine who had actually married a guy and they were [00:49:30] a legit couple. She did a briefing with us about things that they would do. Um, like, what kind of questions would come up and things like that and what you needed, sort of to know, You know, people's birthdays and just I mean, that is really a price of homophobia, filling your fucking grey matter with all this insane detail just to pass an immigration thing because there's so, so homophobic that they won't see you as [00:50:00] a real human being, you know? I mean, this is from the past, but it's not that long ago that you had to do things like that. You know, just leave clothes in someone's house and I can't tell you how offensive that thing is. When I married Owen, the woman who married us came Beryl Fletcher's husband had cheated on her. She wrote word burners and things. I she gave me her [00:50:30] husband, the ring her husband had given to her when he was being totally dishonest. I we used that ring to to be married with, you know, like So we tried to do, you know, I had two maids of honour. You know, we tried to really do a play, but there was a part of it that was so morally bankrupt, and that was being foisted on us for no reason whatsoever. And you couldn't get away from, you know? I mean, [00:51:00] that's what I feel about civil unions now, you know? So I'm a Jewish dyke, right? If we said that everyone could get married, but Jews and Jews could only have civil unions or everybody else could have civil unions, too. But Jews couldn't be married. They could only have civil unions. I would hope that there would be a mass outcry. It's just a kind of measurement of how much [00:51:30] we tolerate a lack of human rights for gays that we don't go nuts about the idea of separate but equal. I mean, you know, loving in Virginia was 1968. I would have thought we could have learned a lot. Uh, since then and of course, now we'll get it because England is doing it and everyone's doing it. So we don't seem, you know, But that whole view that new Zealand is, you know, in that forefront of human rights bullshit. You know, [00:52:00] we maybe were at some point, women suffrage in 18 93. But the whole gay, uh, issue has been just to me the worst compromise to create a separate category for gays and pretend it's equal when we see all the time in the adoption issue. How little? Well, maybe they'll they'll change that, too. But that peace meal changing and the homophobia that was implicit [00:52:30] in not putting the adoption act in, for instance, not giving full marriage uh, I mean, I have a whole analysis of the recognition of which I will trouble you with. But I mean, I think that's what will happen is everybody who's been married and of everyone who's been married in Canada or, you know, the Netherlands or whatever wherever will come and insist that their marriages be recognised. And, uh, like [00:53:00] I would like to see. I always had married scenarios. So I'd like to see a scenario where there are twins who marry one, marries like a woman, and the other twin marries the opposite sex, and they both come back. They they have a double wedding and they both come back to this country and ask for recognition. And we let the courts tell us why there's any difference in, uh, [00:53:30] the legitimacy of their relationship. I just I just think that just like I used to have this thing of marriage of like on the Auckland domain and it would be C bun next to CB and, you know, strapless next to strapless and Kyrie would sing or promise me, you know. And we'd all like the Moonies get married in one giant kind of ceremony. I don't know. [00:54:00] I thought a lot about these things, you know? And I do think I'm getting older and I can see where you can acquire Couer status at some point or at least five years status where you can We do remember things, you know, just because we've lived like I remember, you won't care about this. That judge has spoke out against mediation in terms of domestic violence in 1993. I have a footnote. I intend [00:54:30] to use that all the time. Now, since he's so pro as a minimum, accountability has to mean what was it that made him change his mind like That's what I want to know. I want to hold. See, this is me as an ideal story, but I'd like to get some answers finally, to like how certain things happen. And I'd like a bit of gentleness [00:55:00] for her. So I, you know, like, uh, like I loved it when, uh, you know, in San Francisco that the first marriage went to, you know, the women who formed the Daughters of the Light. And we have those accolades to give in our community. And I think I think it's time we really did more of that. You know that, Uh, you know, there are those people who should be the first [00:55:30] or something like I think of, you know, Alice and Laurie and those people who have worked so long and hard. And, uh, luckily, I'm just a man who I came late, and I'm I don't claim he was dead. Tell me, did you have any, um, issues with being a dyke from From Way Back? Way back when I once got beaten up when I was about 11, when I tried to shave [00:56:00] some facial hair and my mother gave me into the bathroom, which didn't have a lot as you recall. And, uh, and I, I think she knew something then and I didn't know. And, uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't have, Um the the way I came at was really, um, funny, or what happened was really funny. Like, one day I get this call from my mother who's in Florida, [00:56:30] and, uh, she says to me, um, she lives in a condominium for old people in Florida. And she says to me, Ruthie, she says, I was standing in the middle of the pool, you know, and I started talking to somebody, and, uh I don't know what her name is, and I don't know what she was doing here. So I, I really with my mother, you have to start getting scared already, you know? And she said that, uh um, I said to her, Oh, [00:57:00] I said, where are you from? And she said, I'm from Vancouver and she said, Oh, I have a daughter. She lives in Vancouver. So she's calling me Vancouver. She says, Oh, that's very nice. I don't know where she's from. I don't know what her name is. So I said to her, Do you know my daughter. And she said, I said Your name and her face, Rose and Ruthie. She said to me, Go to Vancouver [00:57:30] and save your daughter's life. She runs around with a terrible group, and I think she's a lesbian. I didn't know I did for four years after that. What, are you kidding? She was crazy. She was just out of her bug. I subsequently found out that Peter, my former husband, had called her and I had this conversation and he, in fact, had called everyone I knew [00:58:00] to tell them, You know, that I was a So, um, but that was the fun. Go to Vancouver and save your daughter's life. I just couldn't believe it, you know? So, um, I don't remember as a I mean, we had things about lesbians who were purple on Thursdays. I don't know where that, you know, in New York or high school, but, um, I think [00:58:30] it wasn't until I kind of fell in with these, um and understood, really, that they just took away your scholarship and threw you away. If you, um if you were a I just couldn't. It was my ticket out and uh, I couldn't avoid I couldn't. You know, I, I believe that everything goes off on luck. But if you're given a lucky deal, you have to run with it, you know? And so, [00:59:00] um and so I threw myself into heterosexuality for until I was 33 years old, you know? So that's like, um, 17 years, you know? And that's pretty much how long I was married, I guess. Or at least with Peter for that period of time, because he was my ticket out to, um there was a time that my brother, we were the three of us were walking some flight. [00:59:30] When I was just dating Peter and my brother went to hit me for something, punch me out for something. Rather Peter said, you know, you can't do that. You know, she's going to be my wife, you know, And it was just like I don't even know, but talk about sir. Gala, man, I would have followed that guy forever. I mean, it took a long time that I was with him for 14 years or something. Um, I would, you know, and nobody had ever been able to to say that you can't [01:00:00] do that. And, uh, I didn't realise it was a passing of rights. It was a ritual that passed somehow the ability to, for instance, hit me I. I didn't realise that, uh, I just was blown away by the strength of it all. And, uh, you know, uh, it's funny because lots of times, they think like, Oh, let's say I had a a battering father. I had a battering brother, and then I had a husband [01:00:30] who was a batterer. Um, I just wanna say really clearly. Those men didn't look alike. They were never packaged the same It isn't like somehow I'm drawn to men who are bad or I'm not. I actually looked really different guys. Peter was a Harvard man. He had a PhD. Whoever told you Jewish guys like that could become drunks could become That wasn't the myth I [01:01:00] was given, you know? So I I sometimes hear Oh, you know that mother, she's, like, you know, addicted to the violence. Bullshit. Lots of it's only when they start hitting us that that becomes then that almost self fulfilling perspective. It's that my guys, they were packaged so differently I never would have believed that there would be a continuum of battering. I now know [01:01:30] differently. And, uh, and I think it was good in terms of the work that I did. I brought that perspective to it and I made jokes, you know, like one of my favourite. You like my joke? Um, you know, there's a rule of thumb. Right? So, uh, you know, you can't, uh, can't beat your wife with a stick that's bigger, bigger than your thumb. That's the rule of thumb. That idiom we use rule of thumb. That's what it means. There was a legal principle that you couldn't [01:02:00] beat your wife with a stick that was bigger than your thumb. So you couldn't get it with a four by two, you know, or something. So I I once set at a big law conference. Uh, you know, what do you think it was that 18th century women looked for in a guy? Thin thumbs, man, you know the member that matters, right? You know, if you're gonna be able to me according to how thick my thumb [01:02:30] is, I wanna see that before Show me your thumb. You know, before we're married, you know, like I mean, the is ridiculous, right? But that can you believe that? Well, of course it must bring out the you know, I'm looking for it than the man I'm looking for this. I mean, you know, um, Robyn Morgan once wrote, [01:03:00] and this is probably me and my words, But when she wrote her poem Monster, where her son looks at her pubic hair and points and says monster. And she writes this amazing poem of the late sixties early seventies about this, and at one point she says, just want to have known what I might have been without the violence. And I think so many [01:03:30] women have that story and probably a lot of gay men, too, just once to have glimpsed what I might have been. And I think that, um, like, luckily at this point of my life, I look back and I'm I. I wouldn't say I'm satisfied, but when you grow up in the family that I grew up in, when everyone is killed for no reason whatsoever [01:04:00] because they're Jewish, I mean, what could that possibly mean? I'm not a practising Jew. I do it well enough. I don't have to practise anymore, you know. But, uh, what could it mean? That they murder you for that? When you look at your brothers and your father's violence, do you? I'm not. I'm not sure if the right word is understand or [01:04:30] I mean, do you see where it comes from? And this past year in Prague in December, I told you that I had a photo. One photo of my father's family. It's kind of trivialising to say, but, you know, I don't know if you've been You went to see the life of So, um, I have various things in my life which are different stories [01:05:00] and that I'll never know the truth of which is the story. And they they don't have all good endings. But I prefer certain stories. Uh, one of that is about my grandmother's death, which I now know because of, uh, Meyer. It's beyond a doubt. But I had been told originally that she hadn't been taken [01:05:30] to Auschwitz, that somehow she stood by her cow when the Nazis came and she wouldn't let go of the cows lead to have a whole image, and they'd beaten her to death with, like, the rifles and I preferred that story to Auschwitz because, of course, it eliminated the train and the thing and the gas, you know, like and for a long [01:06:00] time I wouldn't have been able to tell which one that one I know. But the other story is one that I encountered in Prague, which was up in the second. And in some ways I made it into something charming and, um, sucking for me, which is in the second floor of the Spanish synagogue in Prague, which is a beautiful building. You know, Hitler was going to make my [01:06:30] parents a Czech, and Hitler was going to make Prague into, like, a theme park for Jews. So there's a whole Jewish section which doesn't exist. Other places, including, like the old new synagogue, which is from about the 12th century, the only wooden synagogue in Europe. And so there. So there's some lovely places in Prague that just don't exist. Other places because he didn't bomb Prague wasn't bombed, and he didn't burn [01:07:00] down those areas. I mean, they desecrated them down, but they're not. Anyway, so, um, up on the second floor now there's a kind of history of the Czech Jewish people and then over there in December and last December. And, uh, we're walking around and I'm just looking at the different, you know, um, exhibit. [01:07:30] And, uh, I said to Jane, that's my my my uncle. And there was a, um I knew immediately I had seen him in that other photo and he was wearing his uniform and he was an officer in the Czech region. And so he was wearing his uniform, and then and I just knew it was and she looked and it said, Isaac, we which is my family. So we knew it was, and then [01:08:00] and he was there and, uh, just and there was a whole blurb about him in Czech, of course. But it said that in English. It said it was a story of his funeral and that he had killed himself in response in 1947 to a virulently anti Semitic government attack. So this is a life [01:08:30] of pie because I had always known that he killed himself, and I'd always known the consequences to my father. My father stopped speaking after my uncle killed himself. It was just one lost too many. He went to work. He gave his money over to my mother. Maybe he beat you up sometimes, but he virtually [01:09:00] stopped speaking. I couldn't tell you if my father was intelligent or not. I really never heard him talk about anything. Um, I was three when, uh and so I had different stories, um, about him, and then suddenly, you know, what's this thing? So I, uh I have a friend, Norman Franca, who teaches German at Waikato, [01:09:30] And I wrote to Norman, and I said, Do you speak Czech? Because this is And he knew someone at radio who, uh, radio Prague. Who, uh, who ran the English thing. And he translated it for us. And it It's about his funeral and his death. And 1000 people came and he had fought at the battle of Moscow. He had been in Stalingrad, you know? And, you know, you know, he [01:10:00] was, uh, interestingly enough, I sent it to my brother, see who's my other brother. Harold has died already, and he was a much softer guy. But I sent it to, uh, my brother C, and he said to me, Oh, Ruthie, you know, we should have known about this and I thought so. This is an answer to your question. Like he had to keep proving we would fight back. But we had a hero [01:10:30] in our lives. But because of its effect on my father, that could never be shared with us because it was just too much for him. He'd had some communication with him. He thought he would come to the US. He was his oldest brother. They were the two oldest. My grandfather had been killed by being gassed, fighting for the Austro Hungarian army in the first World War. [01:11:00] And then there are his allies came and killed his family. I mean, are you surprised? I've never been a great patriot, you know. I mean, are all of those esque then? The nice thing is, they let me go and bring a flower. So I went back later to the synagogue and when, and I left a flower for him. So we know we were there, you know, and, [01:11:30] uh and I took him home, you know, and I have his photo and everything like that. And the very nicest thing is that you may not you know, there's something called a not don't think of Tolkien. He just must have been a terrible anti Seine and the Go save the Jews. He was like a an artificial man created by giant a man who, uh, [01:12:00] uh was created by a famous Jewish rabbi and, uh, in Prague and his job. He ran errands. He did nice things for the people in the community, but in the end he saved their lives of all of them. And then there was a sense that he couldn't really keep living like he was this artificial man. So they let him live. He lives in the attic of the old new synagogue in Prague, and my uncle lives [01:12:30] in the second floor of the Spanish synagogue in Prague. And that's to me. But it's an incredible thing. Like, did I ever think of my You know, the strange thing is that I started out working on violence against women, But I think, really, since I worked on the Bristol case where this I got to know this woman [01:13:00] whose three Children were murdered by her husband here in New Zealand since I worked on that and started to think about these issues from my own life I really have been interested in in kids and, uh, prioritising the safety of Children from violence. And, uh, that's all, really. It got passed in 1995. It's been going now they're trying to take it back because it's too expensive, you know, uh, blah, blah, blah. [01:13:30] So there's a whole fight around that whole issue now, but in terms of something called the family court proceedings Reform bill anyway. And so I've been involved in writing submissions and doing things like that. And, um, I really initially I saw myself as the one of those Children exposed to violence in the way it had had an effect on me because I I know [01:14:00] even in my own life, I had to learn to take three steps back. You know, there's a real there's a realness about violence and, uh, cuts out all the bullshit. You know, like it's really electric. And I really did have to learn not to go for that charge I'd seen. Have the men in my life had gotten off [01:14:30] on it. I I knew. I knew the charge of it, and I just that wasn't who I So I read about in some ways myself and violence. And then, of course, I had to realise that. See, he'd had it even worse than me. Like he always thought my father was nothing from the time he got to me that he really been bad when he was a kid and stuff like that. He just was so [01:15:00] angry. He had his whole world went up and literally went up and smoke, but nothing. All these people, if you see, you know, one photography and one photograph there there's no way they ever did anything to hurt anybody. You know, they were just no bodies, you know, it was crazy. And, uh, IIIII. I had more room for him, [01:15:30] and I certainly liked Since Harold died, my brother Harold died. I, uh, like C was one of these people. He could be so mean to Harold, but he really loved him, you know? Right, Because it's safest to take everything out on your family, isn't it? There's no consequences. When he died, he really missed him. So I've never really been anybody that you'd sort of [01:16:00] in his mind, I was just a loser, right, But, um, on the other hand, that was all we had left as a family, and we were the only one who once, who been through the bronze together. Right. So I did think of him as a victim, and I've often thought of him as a victim. But I also thought, you know, I used a lot of humour to, um, get the domestic violence Act passed. [01:16:30] I'd been ridiculed and had contempt expressed to me by a guy who had a PhD from Yale with distinction. And, uh, you know, Harvard, You know, after 15 years, you learn how to do it yourself. You know, like, you just sort of listen and listen and listen and listen. So I was able to When I was fighting that battle, I understood the power [01:17:00] of ridicule and contempt in polysyllabic language. I'd been taken apart by it for years, you know, and so I decided to use some of it back, right? And, uh, it was one voice that was needed because there was such politeness that nobody really said what was really going on, you know? But I think it also, you know, there was this, um [01:17:30] the second report I wrote there was a thing where we dedicated it to, by name and age to every woman and child who'd been killed in this country since the domestic Violence Act was passed. It was very hard getting all of that material, but it was like 100 and 91 people and, you know, seven years. It was a lot of people from New Zealand and, uh, of women [01:18:00] who I hadn't known before but who I like very much who's also Jewish. She said to me, Uh, as soon as I saw the names, I knew you were Jewish because we do those things Memorial Memorial, Memorial, uh-huh A lot of remembering of names. And of course, we don't want those names to die. So, um, I've written about my father [01:18:30] in that way in a poem, you know, so many names dead with you. Um, and I said to her, You know, as soon as I knew they were names, I knew I would use them right, because it's like we have to get away from that politeness and really think about who pays and what's the cost. And I think at least [01:19:00] at law school, we still talk about justice. Sometimes maybe not. enough. But we still have some vision of justice. And I've been really lucky to have a job where I've been able to do that for my whole life and play games as well. Mhm. You know, one time, uh, there were these nine court of appeal judges in a room, and it was about 1000 people. Anyway, Maori used to love my talks because, you know, I'd say these things that [01:19:30] they didn't think you were allowed to say, and they yell Order, order! It was really wonderful. Um, it was great, you know? And I was best friends with this woman who was the Maori head of women's refuge, and she was wonderful. And she gave me a lot of access into, uh, just trainings and talks and things, and, uh, and we did a lot of it together. Her, me and Neville. And, uh, So one day, uh, they taken every judge's [01:20:00] name out of her report. I could show it to, you know, drawing lines through what women were saying. I said, you know, me and Neville, we've decided to become rich. Um, from domestic violence. Uh, we're gonna market a board game. We're gonna call it, uh, pin the judge on the judgement or, uh, ex parte brute. And I said, And if you've read any of these judgments, you know for sure there's a get out of jail free card, [01:20:30] right? My people went nuts right in the room. My most prized time was that I was invited to a conference here in New Zealand about, uh, something I'd written. And the principal family called Johnny. He just hated me, you know, I'd come in and I do this kind of funny jokes get standing ovations. It was riot, you know, And he he [01:21:00] just as, um we're going up to the stage. This woman Brenda had organised the conference. She said to me, Do you want to hear what he said about you? I said, sure. And she said, uh, he said, um, if that bitch steals his conference, you're gonna answer to me. So, uh, I don't need to be invited twice. Right? So I got up right, and I went for gold, right? And [01:21:30] I got a standing ovation and everything like that, You know, like, go to hell, eat your heart out. You know, I mean, you know this is the right, just, you know, and she comes over and she says you really are a bitch. I said, what did you expect me to do? You know, in the, uh you know, why did you tell me if you didn't want me to Just and I? I think that that, um, my [01:22:00] role in it and to some extent they were afraid of us. For a small time, they learned not to be, because we're really just people. But, um, So back to what I was telling you in my family, you had to be worth living in a way that I don't think a lot of other people necessarily have to question because, you know, it's just an accident. Like [01:22:30] all my my grandmother's grandchildren died with her, but no. So, I mean, it wasn't that I'm smarter. There's a Yiddish phrase that's called to leave, and it wasn't meant for you to live. And my mother really believed we were meant to live. One time we were walking around her place in Florida and she said to me, Oh, Ruthie, I've thought so long. Why were we, you know, be to leave? And why were we meant to live, [01:23:00] she said. I'll tell you one thing. It wasn't because we were the smartest right? And that's right. We weren't the smartest. It's its luck. But as I said, you you had to make you couldn't make your luck. But if it was given to you, you had to run with it and you had to know when the time was right, which made you a little kind of, you know, amygdala a lot of times. But, [01:23:30] um, you know, I think I think like if they if I have a story to tell, it's that story of, um, growing up with them and somehow trying to live honestly and generously I I It took me. It didn't take me that long to forgive my parents. I just thought, Oh, people crack up [01:24:00] and going into hospital for a hell of a lot less than this, and they just tried to keep going. And, you know, I thought, as even as a young adult, I thought if I read about them in a case study, I would feel, you know, empathy and not anger, and I could learn to do that myself and the most wonderful thing is that my mother [01:24:30] lived long enough to like me. And so maybe she was 80 you know, but But she'd lived to be 94 and so she could, um um So maybe for two years, I wondered, you know, she she was always a great inconsistent. She could love you to death and then want to kill you. You know, that kind of [01:25:00] stuff. So she was very, uh, you know, erratic, but, um, mood swings. But, um, after about two years, she was being consistent, right? So, um, and then three years, four years, I eventually I learned to trust it and and to really enjoy it. And then I called my own daughter, and I said to her, You know, we could cut out 50 years of this garbage. We could just say, Let's not lie to [01:25:30] each other ever again. What? Just let's, uh, tell each other the truth, and, uh and then we don't have to go through 50 more years of this. Anyway, we we were That wasn't the reason we got better, but we got a lot better, you know, But, uh, just people waste so much time. Guess anyway, you so [01:26:00] The important thing is, even though I never did make the revolution like I'd hoped to, you know, and, uh um, we haven't reinstituted matriarchy or whatever anybody else wanted, though I have to say, I've never been a separatist. I don't think you could be born a Jew and believe in any form of biological determinism. I, uh it just never was. Anyway, I I have two sons, you know as well as a daughter. One time a guy in [01:26:30] my legal systems class, he got up and he asked me if I thought I was a man hater. And I said to him, it was just one of these giant classes like paper chase. You know, they went all the way up like that 304 100 kids. And I said, a man hate a man. I'm a total idealist, you know, uh, why would I be standing here? Otherwise, I said, you know, Firstly, if I really believed that all men were rapists, I would have drowned my [01:27:00] sons at birth in any way. If I were a man hater, I'd be out doing target practise, you know, Amazing, crazy. So funny. They were this whole kind of year. We used to have a good time together. There was a there was a whole way in which, uh, because I was the first teacher at that law school [01:27:30] before, even before Margaret Wilson or anyone came there, there was a way in which we were all in together, you know, and, uh, a lot about how well those students did without a library, for instance. Uh, and we didn't have all of those databases electronic, uh, really determined in part whether we got a law school or not. And so, you know, we did famously, and we, uh we all did it, and it was great. It was like every [01:28:00] Maori radical who ever want to be a lawyer was in that first class. You know, every gay guy, every you know, it was just like, just the idealism of the class and just the anger at the law. And, um, I remember the first time I went in and I said, You know, you may think it's funny to have someone from the Bronx, you know, talking to you about the Treaty of Waitangi, I said, At least I have nothing to unlearn. It's funny You know, I always remember [01:28:30] who was the guy who was on. Um Oh, he's a Maori guy, Uh, who was on Shark in the park or something like that anyway. And he came to a queer and tertiary education, and so he was leading a kind of treaty workshop, and some idiot goes up on the back. How much Maori do you have in you anyway? And he says, Well, last night, I had a bad 7.5 [01:29:00] inches. I don't know. You know, it was just and I realised from hearing that that there was that place for humour that nobody asked another question. It was stupid to ask anymore. He had just that. Those are wonderful answers, and we our side has to learn to give at least some silencing wonderful answers, you know, seven inches wearing a condom, he said or something. It was wonderful. [01:29:30] It was, uh, you know, and we used to have lesbian comedians. One of them got to have so many friends who are vegans. Now, um, you know, said to me, uh, said to this, um and she said I didn't give up men to eat tofu, you know, really? You know, and, uh, you know, just, um, she did a thing. My mother loved Eleanor Roosevelt. She saw her as like a saint. You know, the the [01:30:00] women in my neighbourhood. The only time I remember them ever dressing up and going to a lecture. Eleanor Rhodes was giving a talk at our public school, and they all dressed up and went to see her. So Robin Tyler was her name and the comedian. She had this photo wonderful photo of Ellen Rosel and said it was good enough for Eleanor Roosevelt. It's good enough for me. And I sent it to my [01:30:30] and have wasted your time. A lot of it. Not at all, not not at all. You talk to me about, um, you mentioned coming to New Zealand and, um, getting married to stay in the country. And I'm wondering, can you talk to me about working within the system and then working with without outside the system and and how that kind of works in your own head? Well, firstly, in about 1985 in [01:31:00] Hamilton, we used to have a group called lists called and it was lesbians inside the system and uh, we would meet monthly and we talk about all these crazy things Like what you wear and pronouns and, you know, uh, kind of people's experience and just ways they were getting They probably I I can remember it must have been at least 20 women would meet. And it was just about when lesbians were off [01:31:30] the benefit and getting jobs, you know, and things like, uh, there'd been a time when I first came to this country that a lot of women were on the D PB and they were getting education. And as I as I said to a lot of women had Children. And then or there were younger women who were also finishing their education. So, uh, in by about 85 women and les a lot of lesbians were moving into jobs. I think then, [01:32:00] um I mean, obviously that existed before, But friends of mine, I guess because I was around the university, my lover then was teaching in the department at and there were some famous out lesbians. They were, sadly enough at Waikato, you've never seen the same number of out gay men, and I think it firstly, women's studies gave that ability, uh, for women to come out, and and maybe there's just so [01:32:30] much more homophobia against gay men. Um, but I certainly couldn't count off lots of men that I knew. And anyway, so, um yeah, so we did have this group lists, and, um and those issues were very real. Like, I was in a law firm, you know? And, uh, um yeah, and, uh, and it also involved, um, [01:33:00] not as much. But, um, with the Children, you know, going to parent teacher meetings, how much you come out to these people. You know, there's lots of issues that were being discussed, and, uh then we got that got involved list anyway, got involved with Maori activism because he who who was running the Maori Women's Centre, which really, um, called the Maori Women Centre. But it was really, [01:33:30] uh, the foyer of the rape crisis collective. We'd given some space and things like there was very there really weren't buildings and people weren't getting paid, you know? Everything was really volunteer. Uh, some some I don't know. They had summer scheme sometimes, but it was very, very non government funded. And, um yeah, so they because there's always been my experience, [01:34:00] at least with the women that I know who've been like lesbian feminist here is that it's always been very, uh, involved in Maori activism, too. And there's been always and, uh, like Mea Pitman or someone, but they've always been out Maori diets like, um, I came after the tour, but I was here in time for the right and so one of my fame first memories was, you know, making £50 [01:34:30] of potato salad at Auckland University kitchens. And, you know, there was all of that and there were the for the bastion point things. And a lot of my friends had been involved. I was I was kind of I'd I'd been a, um a a leftie all my life. So I mean, I immediately gravitated to those women and they were very involved and, uh, ripping off pearl earrings and necklaces from the five and dime and wearing [01:35:00] them to Waitangi and, you know, then kind of infiltrating treaty grounds. That was, you know, there was a lot of stuff that went on, and a lot of a lot of people, both men and women, but I knew a lot of lesbians, but I a lot of men down in Hamilton, too. Because of stopping the, uh, game and things and the tour. The tour was still very close. Uh, and when I first arrived and people had their tour stories and there was lots [01:35:30] of that going on, so for lesbians and and a lot of lesbians it had been, you know, they'd been in that part two squad, like, was quite wonderful going to that film part two with with women from the community because you could recognise, you know, different. It was a very idealistic community and a great believer in, uh, yeah, equality. Um, I was later than bitches, witches and [01:36:00] dikes, which was, uh, you know, a famous lesbian newsletter. And it and I wasn't here when broadsheet had its dike cut. You know? So, um, you know when the lesbian split from broad sheet, So there were different things that, uh, had that really predated me, but I definitely got involved in the treaty stuff and, uh oh, and then 80 by 86. Of course, it was homosexual law reform, [01:36:30] you know, and I'd never like being in Hamilton is really different from being in Vancouver. I'll tell you that in terms of gay rights, you know, like I can remember going very early on to one of the first gay games things in Vancouver, and you know it. I mean, Vancouver was about 40% gay and lesbian. It was just a wonderful place to come out. And, you know, and, uh, we there were things happening. Clubs, restaurants, [01:37:00] whatever you wanted. It was going on. And it wasn't a hidden community, though. I have to say that the first club I ever went to, like in about 78 even in Vancouver, it was, you know, Mafia Butch Dyke at the and taking the money. And then inside it was all dark, dark, dark, you know, practically black walls and things so that no one would recognise you and you wouldn't recognise anyone you know or [01:37:30] something. But, um I I was still in Vancouver, so that would have been about 82 when there was the first. If you can believe this, how long ago the first, uh, lesbian like cafe that was above ground and had windows that you could go and you actually there would be the light in it. And like, actual Doesn't that sound stupid? I mean, I remember going on a silent march [01:38:00] in about 1980 maybe even before, uh, for lesbian rights and to just men just throwing beer bottles at us. It was so stupid and, you know, making stupid, uh, you know, this whole idea that, you know, they could solve it for you? They had it in their pants. It was so stupid, you know, It was just so stupid. [01:38:30] I mean, that it was too much to understand that redefining masculinity might be good for men as well as women. You know, like that it didn't have to be exclusionary. And then and oh, I have to say this just in case we ever forget it, and we'll never get to it. I have never You know how lesbians were seen as man so much. Or maybe stuff I've never known people who hated men as much as straight women. There is no one [01:39:00] because lesbians don't depend on guys by and large. So, like the men who are in my friends, they're my friends, right? I choose them. Whatever hurdles they have to leave. Not that many, but, you know, whatever I said, they don't let me down all the time. They don't, because if that would happen, I wouldn't be around. Right. So, uh, I mean, rather than lesbians being mans, I never go to a lesbian dinner and guys are disgust. You go out with straight women. All they talk [01:39:30] about is how they're getting fucked over by God, you know, like so I just think who are the man haters, You know, who are the people who depend on these men and who just failed by them? I'm not saying all of them failure, but the ones who do those women tell stories about them. So, I, I just think it's that whole double speak we have, you know, God of love. Or, you know, not if you're Jewish, man. You know, like we have different views. [01:40:00] Uh, you know that. You know, it's just like, uh, that whole labelling of something and it and it's and it's almost 100 80 degrees different from what? From what? Uh, from the label. And that's of course, what's both fun and different and somewhat challenging about living gay or living Jewish or living all of that is you have to understand what the riff is [01:40:30] that's gone. And then you also do your analysis of it. So you're working on multiple levels, which is fun, right? I mean, and it's a game, and being a lawyer is the same. Uh, I mean, my last big relationship was with a woman who was a poet, and we've been together for 12 years, and it was we both love words. You know, The spin of words is fantastic, you know? And that kept our relationship going for quite a while. Just our love of words. Um [01:41:00] oh, I have to say just a couple more things which are probably I didn't come out because I was a political lesbian. I came out because I like fucking with women, and, uh, I enjoyed it, and I didn't come out because I I didn't enjoy men. Um, also, I enjoyed women more just because they didn't kind of the men of my generation who were straight I. I didn't have that many to be able to, um, you know, this is not a quantitative [01:41:30] survey, but, um, qualitatively, they went into automatic, and they just kind of went for themselves and some all too often, too quickly. So I mean that, uh, it was better sex. That's what kept them going. It had nothing to do with, um, uh, kind of Andrea's analysis of, uh, Widman and pornography, though that legitimated things and made me understand certain things. But I really [01:42:00] came out for for sex. And, uh, I think that was a problem because, uh, my kids would never begrudge me to their father, But they did think that maybe I didn't have to be scouting around on the, you know, um, you know, looking for action. And, um, you know, we've been I was so much more a matron in my twenties and in my thirties, like, um, you know, And when [01:42:30] I graduated from university, if you didn't, if you weren't married, you had to go and live at home. You you weren't allowed to live in an apartment, you know, like at least none from my family. Like, you know who was ever going to do that? I've been living, you know, in a dorm or whatever, for four years. You just like women really had limited options. And, um, you know, I, uh marriage [01:43:00] Was your ticket out too? And, uh, so I took her and that That's one reason I couldn't stay out. I mean, I really admire those women. Uh, when I was 16, who didn't come, you know who who stayed gay. And you know, those women we found out were lesbian virgins. You know, I could never claim that I I'd been made love [01:43:30] with the men. Uh, more than one. So I, uh you know, I. I don't think when I read about the lesbian lives of the forties and, you know, working in class Buffalo, New York, and those lily and fatter and things it's one thing opting into the wealth of the, uh, left bank. You know, in the 19 thirties and all those women, uh, who had [01:44:00] lots of money. But, uh, I would never have been one of those women in. I just see where if I read Leslie Feinstein or, you know, Stone Butch Blues, it's It was too hard. I. I really don't know if I would have come out into that harshness. Um I mean, I, I and I think I also wanted to have Children. At that point. It seemed impossible to do both. And, [01:44:30] uh, but yeah, I. I, uh I really pay tribute to those women. They were, you know, And so all of that stuff about roles not role for I mean, they lived as well they could, You know, in, uh uh, Now we have so much more so many more options. We have a continuum of behaviours. We can, and we can be anybody we want. And I have to say, I don't believe I was born to [01:45:00] be a lesbian. I That's one thing where Nigel and I really disagreed. He believed that he was born gay and that his choice was to accept it or not. Um, I think I could have been anything, but I think my family's experiences allowed me to see that. You know, it's a post modern world, right? I, uh II I knew there were layers and layers [01:45:30] and so I never believed like I think that's the worst thing about Christianity. Is believing that there's one right way? No, or and that everything's literal. I mean, I know a lot of Christians don't believe that, but, uh, you know, like, that's a that's things are multi and multi. And the question for me, my law question my everything question is who benefits? Who benefits from the choices made who benefits from the priorities made? That's [01:46:00] what I wanna know it does. It's not like the law comes down from Mount Mount Sinai, and it has to be that way. It could be a lot of ways. So what does it tell us about power? That it's that way? And of course, they sell. It's like, Look, we now know how many animals are gay or at least bisexual, right? I mean, but it was like nobody else just, you know, I mean, all of that were just lies, [01:46:30] right? And the Catholic Church, like, which projects this demon of gays when they're the ones doing it, All these Children, I mean, that's a little bit what I mean by double speak. It's just like the ogres that we have, you know, or like right, right. It's all about power and we can deconstruct. And those are my questions, like, Why is it like this? Not what's [01:47:00] the right answer, but why does it have to be like that? Why can't it be that something else? Why can't our vision at least be incorporated? Or if it isn't? Let's at least name that it isn't when When the quilter case came out, I was teaching. Um you know, I taught Fam. I have I'm still teaching a family law for 23 24 years at university. When the quilter case first came out, I was walking [01:47:30] to school or I'd heard it just before I was walking into class and I got in. I can't remember exactly where it was. And I said to these kids, Go to the registry and get your money back. You deserve to be taught by a full human being. And the Court of Appeal of New Zealand has decided I'm not one and I walked out of the car. I mean, forget it. I'm not gonna talk [01:48:00] this crap. They've just decided that the relationships I have aren't worthy of being recognised. Sure, I have a whole analysis of heterosexual marriage. I know how conservative it is. You know that I do meant I would whenever whenever or meant all of that crap. But nobody's going to tell me that I'm not as good as someone else. And all of the consequences. [01:48:30] Firstly, in this country leads leads to kids killing themselves. Suicide of gay kids for no reason. Except for this view. There's one right way, and all the animals are heterosexual and blah, blah, blah. No one can believe that. I have to say that however many resentments my Children might have, and I'm sure they have some. They could be anybody [01:49:00] they wanted, just not rapist, right? But anybody they wanted and I would support them. And I don't think it's good for kids to have that. And I wonder why people don't realise how these views are hurting their Children. So because I'm I'm still interested. [01:49:30] You know, I used to believe that they wouldn't care. Like the family court wouldn't care about battered women. I'd seen enough of that. You know, I was married for 22 years before rape within marriage was a crime. We're not talking 18 40. We're talking. I'm sitting in front of you. I was married in 1964. It was 1986 [01:50:00] in this country before rape within marriage was a crime. Not till 1993 did the House of Lords say that rape within marriage was a crime. How is it different that I have that perspective? How does that colour how I see them? You know, one time I was sent to this meeting of [01:50:30] Lord Deans like Ethel Benjamin was admitted to the bar in 18 91. She was the first woman in the Commonwealth. That's when New Zealand saw ahead. And we didn't have a high Court woman judge until Sylvia Cortright became that in 1993 it was given as a suffrage present, you know? So 100 2 years before a woman [01:51:00] went to the high court, rape cases are have to be heard in the high Court. So 100 2 years before any woman had any voice of authority in a rape case, I mean, that's incredible. Can we really believe there wasn't even one intelligent enough woman during that 102 years to outpace a guy in appointments? [01:51:30] I said something that sounded like that at the meeting and this guy who was the dean of law at Canterbury, he came over and he said to me, Ruth, you you just don't have patience. Look how everything's changed in such a short time. Look, you know, like right, you weren't even people in 1929 and you look at this and the Human Rights Act I said to him, John, [01:52:00] you know, it's interesting. It's We could quantify your level of patience and that would represent your male privilege. I myself had no more patience. I've worked against battering for my whole life. My mother was my first battered woman, you know, for most, uh, women who work in women's refuge. That's the truth. [01:52:30] But nobody says that right? My mother was the first battered woman I ever dealt with, right? Hello. I, uh I don't have patience. I'm not sure for all of this work. Luckily, I have very nice sons and I. I think my daughter has a very good relationship. But I have friends whose daughters are still being beaten up, [01:53:00] whose grandchildren are still being exposed to all of this violence who are learning to be violent themselves. 70% of boys who grow up in homes where their mother is being abused will become abusers. The primary determinant of whether a boy is an abuser is whether his father was an abuser. People learn their social dispute resolution skills in the kitchen. [01:53:30] You know, it needs to stop. I thought I would stop it. I didn't. And, uh, I forgiven myself for that for a long time. I had our time When I saw it wasn't changing. Totally because I thought that was what I had done to make it worthwhile that I survived. But it's not gonna happen. It's too much of an investment in, uh, misogyny [01:54:00] and now, homophobia. We see too much of them.
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