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So you've just had the Wellington launch of the series. How did that go? It was amazing. It was like sold out full house. We had a great Q and a afterwards ALS cracked the best jokes I've heard yet. I think there's still a little bit more room in that comedy routine. And and my best oldest girlfriend from drove here for three hours and and it was amazing to see her. And we had lots of parents bringing their Children, which was, like, really important. What is the reaction from the audience? [00:00:30] I don't know. It was it was very different from Auckland. Um, I don't know. I mean, it was quite intimate this time, and I think that just changed the vibe. But, um, there's a older sort of audience in there, but yeah, kids as well. Um, I think everyone liked it and everyone stayed for the Q and a so that was a good you know. Good thing. Um yeah. So what is the difference between here and the Auckland audience? Um I think just Auckland is a little bit more rowdy. Auckland was drunk like Auckland. It was at night. There was like a bar beforehand. People had had a few drinks. Champagne, [00:01:00] so Yeah. Yeah, Rowdy. And they way more people, obviously. Um, yeah. What do you reckon, Craig? What was the main difference? I think Wellington cried more. Auckland laughed more. Wellington cried more so we got two different emotional responses. Got the laughter from the, uh, the rowdy bunch in Auckland and the tears from the more intimate crew in Wellington. It was a good audience. I spoke to a couple of audience members just coming out now, And, um, one of them was just [00:01:30] just really choked up and didn't actually have the words to say anything in the Q and a, um, but really wanted to pass on their thanks for for the movie. Ah, that's awesome. I mean, that's a beautiful thing to hear how much we've moved people and I Yeah, I can imagine that the ones the people that have moved the most probably don't want to come up and talk to us. So why was it important to make, uh, well, I mean, opportunities like this don't come around every day for [00:02:00] marginalised communities. Um, I mean, this started, like, four years ago. We're talking and this the story came across, you know, my desk and, um, just kind of realised that it was an incredible opportunity for the community to to, uh, have a voice and and really, authentically represent themselves. I got a real sense that it just seems so authentic. The characters, the setting, uh, the, um So, yeah, I mean, that that came about through, [00:02:30] um, through our collaborator and friend and and part of our team. Cole Myers and Cole is the writer, uh, along with Oliver Page and, um, also co-produced on it. And Cole is an incredible trans activist and really brought with him his personal experiences and and also, I guess what he's always wanted to see on screen, um, [00:03:00] which has always been denied to some extent. So it it was about creating something truly authentic by the trans community for the trans community and others, but just really with a clear focus on authentic representation. Um, and Cole really spearheaded that, um, by bringing his voice to the table. And one of the biggest impacts on authenticity and [00:03:30] the performances is casting transgender people and trans roles. Um, and you know, I think S talks about that in terms of relating to the character. And I certainly see that coming through and some of the more, um, hard hitting, poignant, moving parts of Al's performance. But, um, we hear from gender diverse people. There's lots of little touches like you and I were talking about that line. What does CAS say when he asked him about Oh, just that you know doesn't sing anymore because it feels weird for him, [00:04:00] you know? And that's and that line, Apparently they came from me. Um, yeah, I mean, I. I used to be a and, you know, starting hormone Thera really changed that for me. And, um, it is weird to sing now, Um, so that was kind of my little bit of, you know, added thing in there. Those little touches, you know, come from having a trans person writing the show and having trans actors embodying these characters. And there's always dialogue about how does this feel? Would you say it this way? And you know, we have the opportunity [00:04:30] of of of, you know, all these heads of department who are trans feeding into the show. So that authenticity that you're noticing comes from having gender diverse people and all the creative departments of the show. So how did you relate to cares? Oh, I mean, we're both trends, so that was the main thing. Um and yeah, like I say all the time, that that was like a foundation for me already set. Um, And then on top of that, we we're from, you know, small communities. [00:05:00] We're both Maori. I mean, we we share, we share so many similarities. It's just Yeah, just I don't know. I just get it. You know, it's hard to explain, really. It's just something you get II. I was also really interested in the kind of spaciousness of the production that you're actually giving the characters time to reflect and think about where they are and where they've come from. Um, can you talk about how kind of building that kind of spaciousness into the film? Yeah, so that [00:05:30] spaciousness starts with a script. And Cole and I worked a lot on actually stripping out dialogue and kind of interrogating what's between the lines and then, you know, through rehearsals when the actors are preparing, you know, they're all thinking about what's behind the lines and certainly a stylistic choice as director is, is allowing space. You know, for, um, what's in the inside the characters to play on their faces. And I think that's also an editorial decision as well. [00:06:00] You know, the does have a slower pace in most parts, and, you know, that's because so much of what's important to this drama is what's going on inside the characters. We need space to see that. Yeah, I agree. I think it's really hard to follow a script that's bulked with dialogue. It it just kind of takes away from that authentic feeling or that realness it's you know what I mean? Like, yes, you get to play. Yeah, yeah, Someone asked me like they're like, Oh, you must, like, forget [00:06:30] your lines. And like I said to him, I don't really have that many lines now that I'm thinking about it and he's like, Oh, true, I'm like, Yeah, like I didn't really say much. Yeah, that's a great answer to the question, though, that you don't say much and and yet you convey so much, you know in your face and what's going on for you. What's going on inside? That's Yeah, yeah, that That's one of the big things I took away from it as well is that I think a lot of these characters don't seem that comfortable talking. You know, it's like New Zealanders aren't [00:07:00] good at speaking very in sentences, um, and in the way that you convey emotion and build character, not through dialogue, but through how you how you look, you know, the the mannerisms. I mean, gem, probably of all the characters and bodies that clumsiness the most and and the terms of you know, he stutters and he ums and ah, and kind of swallows some of his words. And that's just, you know, again having a fantastic actor like Arlo Green. It was a quality that he started [00:07:30] experimenting with in the auditions. Um, you know, Cole and I kind of looked at that and then went back to the script and kind of shaped a little bit more so he could bring that into the character. And, you know, I, I just think, you know, it creates such a an affectionate portrayal of a rural man who's kind of cast into this really unusual situation of, you know, being in love um, with someone who has changed and yet remained the same. So Jim and Kaz have [00:08:00] a really multi layered relationship. How did you work with, um, with the other actor on that? Yeah. I mean, me and Max spoke about this earlier, and I think it's because both and I are just super passionate about acting. And, you know, we put a lot of thought into our back stories. I mean, I don't know what was going on, but that's what it was for me, because we, I mean, in a rehearsal we didn't. And Max, that was your decision to kind of keep that separate between us. Um, you know, in a rehearsal, [00:08:30] because that's what happens in the story. We're not We don't, you know, and don't spend a lot of time together. Um, we spent more of rehearsal with, you know, as a trio with with, um but, um, yeah, I don't I don't know. What do you think? Something that I don't think I've ever told you. I don't know If you're aware of it. Was that and I built up an idea of you know who Caz was before he left and a relationship with that person and a lot of memories with that [00:09:00] person. Um And so I think you know, I wanted to make sure that as much as possible when caz kind of reentered Jim's life that there was this, um, both shock and recognition. And just like you said, if I had started rehearsing you two together, um, some of that, um, shyness or awkwardness, you know, we would have lost it would have happened in the rehearsal room instead of on camera. Um, so that was sort of the the idea [00:09:30] there was, You know that seeing each other for the first time and, you know, you played it really well. Like when Jim arrives at the city council and you you see, you know, basically your ex lover, right? And I love the expression in your face and you just get out of there. And I think, you know, if we had started to dig into that too much in rehearsals, that that would have been lost to time and wouldn't have happened in front of the camera. There are a number of scenes that are really highly emotional, and I'm thinking, particularly when, um, [00:10:00] the mayor is confronting you. And I'm wondering, how was it to play that? I mean, it was emotional to watch, but how was it to play it? And I'm guessing you did a number of takes. I mean, that would have been quite stressful. Yeah, Yeah, we did. A lot of takes. Um Ah, I don't For me, that scene wasn't the most emotional for me, like in particular. It was kind of easy, I think. Because Max was like, you know, Caz [00:10:30] has heard these things before. I mean, he's been through it all. So, you know, initially he gets kind of upset, but then he brings himself back down because as an activist, that's what he's done, you know, his whole in the last 10 years. So, um, but, you know, you did some tricky things in there. You got, um, miss, uh, to, you know, to say some things that were off the page to really get in there and hit me, which was that worked? Um, but yeah, we did a heap of takes of it, but yeah, [00:11:00] Yeah, I think. And sort of for, um, it was actually So we're talking about the dead naming. Yeah, that moment. And then, um I don't know, Craig, Do you like I remember coal being, You know, that was a really it was really important to Cole how the production handled that. Yeah. I mean, well, we want to avoid dead naming at all, so that meant stripping it from the script as well. So, uh, it's a dead name. It doesn't exist in the script. Doesn't exist in any previous draughts. [00:11:30] Uh, so through through shooting it It was that same approach. Um, where we were using words like when she's supposed to be saying his name. She's going dead. Name da, da da. And, um and and some other words which which Max through into, um maybe evokes more of a response from, um, from in, you know, in a safe way. Um, but a little bit That might come a little bit shocking. Not expecting it to come from [00:12:00] Renee's mouth. Rene. Sorry, Renee. Leon, um, plays, um, plays and does an amazing job at it. Um, so yeah, and And that kind of thinking was approached throughout the entire production, Really? And and it's just making sure that whatever is on the page, whatever the talent are reading is safe for them. Um, safe for filming, um, with trigger warnings if they exist and and are required. Um, yeah. It was just part of the cop [00:12:30] of the show. Really? Cole is really media savvy. He does a lot of media consultation. And one of his concerns was that if we put things in the show like photos of cares when he was a child or dead named him, then the media, when they did their coverage and reporting on the show, just has a habit on, like, honing in on on these, you know, dead names. You know who someone was before their transition. And it was really important to Cole that, you know, he's seen this done wrong so many times so that when the show was out there, these [00:13:00] things didn't even exist for the media to get their hands on. In fact, there's one photo I think of, you know, on the wall when he was a child and again the same much in the way that we handled the dead naming there was a lot of care around making sure that it was always out of focus and barely seen. Um and, yeah, I'm really pleased with the way that the production embodied the same principles. Um, that were on screen. I mean, we we actually printed that photo [00:13:30] out of focus so it could never have been in focus. Um, which was sneaky way on that one. I was out of focus at the time. I just thought that Johannes was making sure that he had the camera out of focus. But that's even smarter, Craig. So how has the media responded to this production? ALS and I sometimes talk about the curly questions that you get asked. Um, I mean, on the whole, the the the response has been enormously positive and a real palpable sense [00:14:00] of excitement. Um, and you know it. It feels like people are kind of picking up what we're what we're putting down, um, I. I do notice that has kind of been pushed forward. Um, as a as a spokes. You know, the media tends to treat him as, like a spokesperson for all transgender concerns and issues. And maybe you want to speak a lot. I don't know. Has that been your experience? Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah. I mean, it's it's inevitable. Kind of, um, [00:14:30] you know, And like, just as I said in Q and a I mean, I'm not representing anyone else but myself and and, like, I just I just want people to know that we're all so different. I mean, every human being is different. We just We come from different backgrounds. We have different parents. Some don't have parents, you know, there's so many different things. Um and yeah, um, those curly questions like so for me, I mean, I'm really open to those questions. It's an opportunity for me to teach or, you know, [00:15:00] but But, you know, that's That's not to say that you can just go ahead and ask people those questions. You kind of got, You got to You got to feel what the vibe is between you and that person. And, you know, take care around that, um there's still people out there who are really fascinated by the transitions of transgender people and and look, in all honesty, it It's fascinating to me, but we don't need to continue. You know what I mean? It's it's You have to continue talking about it. I mean, let's let's look at all the things that we are outside of being, you know, outside of transitions. [00:15:30] Let's look at what we do for jobs. And you know, the cool people we have in our lives and the people we fall in love with. And I mean, there's so much more to us. I mean, we we're talented, you know? So, yeah, I think, yeah, but it's we'll get there. When? When. You know, over the last couple of weeks, we've done a lot of media, and when you actually line them up back to back, you know, we've made this the show, these stories, these characters, you know, which, like, I is about, um, you know, a son returning home to reunite with his father with his difficult relationship. Um, [00:16:00] you know, this debate in rural New Zealand over phosphates? Um, you know, colonialism and the character sort of coming to terms with, you know, um, their Maori heritage and wanting to speak to Maori. Um, you know, that's what's in the show. And yet we have noticed when you kind of back to back the media, there's this this, like, this real focus on, um, you know, the transitioning and you know transgender lens, and you know, that is obviously part of the show. But it's been interesting for me to notice, like how much that tends to dominate [00:16:30] the kind of line of questioning from the media. Yeah. No, it's Yeah, I agree. Just looking on the the website for the production, it seems more than just a movie. You've got internships. You've got a, uh, a whole page around gender diversity within cast and crew. And you've also got what you will improve upon if you get funding for a second series. Can you talk to me about some of those things? I think what's been really important from us from the start and and actually, this is why we named [00:17:00] our production company when they formed it, Um, or a mouse, the knee on the end, like a little mouse. Um, but the idea is that we wanted to build up the, uh, community's autonomy in their storytelling. We wanted them to be able to tell their own stories, and that's ultimately the goal. So, as part of that, um, we ran an internship programme which was supported by the New Zealand Film Commission for six, gender diverse interns through the production in in all the creative roles. So we had, uh, interns [00:17:30] in directing, producing, uh, wardrobe makeup, um, editing camera and art. So across the board and trying to provide experience and get training, you know, with with with top people from the industry. I mean, that was that was part of it, you know, And and so it's It's about creating the future generation of trans filmmakers who will be able to tell their stories themselves. Um, [00:18:00] which is where we ultimately want to get to, um, and that, you know, that's spread across all the way into cast as well. You know, phenomenal number of cast, um, with gender diverse. Um, so yeah, hopefully, yeah, Hopefully we'll get to season two. And and, uh so, uh, some of the trans people we had working on this show or the gender diverse people working on on season one will be in in much higher positions, and it'll just keep going from there. That's that's ultimately where we want to get to. [00:18:30] We were talking earlier about some of the emotional high points in the series, and I mentioned the one about you and the mayor But that wasn't the one for you, which was the highest kind of emotional point for you. Oh, that's a good question. Um, I, I think it was Oh, this is actually this heaps. But the one that I just comes to mind is when Caz sees his best friend for the first time, Like I think, [00:19:00] I just think it comes down to the depth of their relationship like friendship. I mean, they just there's so much love for each other. And I think you know, he's wanting acceptance from his father as well. But I just felt like Caz really wanted his best friend back. And I just think, I think, is his safe place. Basically, I think I don't know what that's about Got me thinking now, but yeah, I think that was really emotional for me. Um, yeah, that's an example of that. We've got [00:19:30] You hardly have any lines, right? And yet we see you kind of, like run the length of the Amazon. You know, in that in that moment, what's going on there, like this joy being you reunited. There's all this like sadness And like the 10 years that you've lost and Yeah, that's my favourite favourite scene, too. Yeah, Yeah. Craig, What? What about you? Like what? Is there a scene that you get emotional? We've never had this conversation like, Is there a moment or a scene that gets you? I mean, the end always gets me. It always gets shivers at the end, right [00:20:00] down the spine. Like like I've seen it. How many times now? 10, 20 times, at least. Still, there's always shivers down the spine. In that last scene, there were a number of other pieces of dialogue that really stuck out to me. One was when I think, um asks, uh, who benefits from our shame. Who do you think does benefit from our shame? I mean, I think in general, like the people that benefit from shame, are those who are in control [00:20:30] of what's perceived as normal. You know, the the people that most benefit from maintaining inequality. Um, you know, shame keeps people down. Shame keeps people quiet. You know, shame keeps people away from, like, their power. And, um so, yeah, the the people that benefit from shame. And I think this is what Cole is wanting us to think about um, are oppressors. Another piece of dialogue that really jumped out to me was when [00:21:00] your father says, um, why did you fucking come back? Why did you come back? Yeah, like again? We were talking about this before Max and I, um I think we put it down to sometimes. I mean, as humans, we we Sometimes we when we've got so much going on in our minds and in our hearts, we make these decisions to do these decisions that we wouldn't normally make. But we don't really know why we're doing it. And I think I think for it was just that. Home [00:21:30] is a place of healing. And I have that for myself. It's just when the time when when home calls, it's time to go. And you don't really? You don't always know why, but, um, it's just a special place. Um, you know, So, yeah, I don't know. There's so many so many layers to that for What do you What do you reckon? I think you nailed it when you sit at home as a place of healing and, you know, I know that you go home to sometimes and and come back feeling like you have perspective and that you sort of understand something [00:22:00] that maybe you didn't understand when you were heading there, and you put it perfectly. I mean, we often say that in a word is about healing and, yeah, you couldn't have put it better. And I think you just Yeah, for me, it's a matter it's about taking yourself away from the environment that you're normally in that environment is confusing for you. So you're getting out of that and, you know, having a new new surroundings where you can self reflect and figure stuff out. Um, yeah, that's a [00:22:30] home thing for me, that watching the series, um, just seems to me a wonderful world of possibility and opportunity. It's it feels like a real just an opening of starting Where is going after this? Well, we have big things on the horizon for, and, uh, you'll be hearing about them soon. Ultimately, though, we we would love to make a second season. You know, we we've been [00:23:00] story lining and planning with coal and and, um, thinking about where that can go and and And that world, as you rightly point out, is so beautifully set up. We have all these wonderful, uh, little narratives going on and little journeys of our characters, Uh, and and and characters that you know will hopefully join them on that journey. Um, so we've kind of set the foundations. Now we want to show the world. And just [00:23:30] finally, what has the most touching comment been to you about the series So far recently, there's been a number of parents that have gotten in contact. And I've I've been I've become more aware of, you know, the I think the enormous hope and joy and pride and fear that can come with being the parent of, um, a gender diverse child. And this so, you know, [00:24:00] since our word pre premier, it's only been a couple of days ago, but yeah, parents have been like beating a path to our door. Um, you know, just to connect and often to find out. You know, um, whether it's appropriate for an eight year old or a 13 year old. And I think just in those conversations there's been some really beautiful comments, especially coming out. I mean, uh, I think you know one parent who is here in particular was, you know, I could see was was crying. Um and [00:24:30] yeah. So in some ways, the most touching comments has been no words at all. Oh, II, I don't know. I I've just been getting all different comments, and that's been pretty cool. I mean, I said in the beginning, I want people to take what they need from it, personal to them, and it's been that's how it's been. So it's just it's been a good um, I've learned from other people based on their reactions, like [00:25:00] everyone's just got a different reaction, something new to say. And I think that's really cool and it's all important and I don't know, it's I don't know. I just remember there was a There was a review that came out in the Pan Punch, and, um, when I read it, I just sat in my car and cried and cried and cried. Um, because it was from someone who is gender diverse and Maori. And you know, in some ways, the elephant in the room for the show is that, you know, as a director, [00:25:30] I'm cisgender. I'm not Trans, um, and so it's been a real, um, it's really been on my mind, and I guess it's been a big fear for me in terms of just wanting to make sure that in terms of Cole's voice and the the community of people, um surrounding the that they recognise themselves and these characters and these stories, Um, and it's always I've always been battling of, You know, whether I can tell the story or you do it justice in a way. [00:26:00] And when I read that review, yeah, the floodgates open. And I was crying because, um, the reviewer had seen themselves so deeply and profoundly in the as a Maori gender diverse person. And that was actually an enormous relief to me. And from that day on, you know, I felt, um, I could sort of walk a little taller when it came time to promote and talk about Yeah, yeah.
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