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I'm Ronald Thomas Truro Nelson. Born in the mid fifties in Mid America to a middle class family, seventh or eight generation. Worked mostly in politics in Washington. DC prior to coming to New Zealand eight or nine years ago. Um, I came here with my, uh, then, uh, partner of eight years. We were unable to [00:00:30] get a, uh he was unable to get a green card, a visa, permanent residency in the United States. In spite of the fact that he was on a diplomatic visa and worked for an NGO and had a master's and money and all these sort of things. They just denied him and he got really depressed. I got very angry and I says, Well, let's see what else? Where else we could go. At the time, there were four or five countries New Zealand and Australia being one of them. We immediately I didn't want to go to Europe. Uh, we didn't [00:01:00] want to go to Canada only because it was, you know, across the street. And, uh so it was a choice between Australia and New Zealand until one faithful night. We went and saw the film rabbit proof fence. So That's sort of that sort of made our minds up, that it would probably be New Zealand if we liked the place. And, uh, my father had spent time here during the Second World War and even had ideas of moving the family here in the sixties. Uh, but my [00:01:30] mother wouldn't hear hear any of that. So we came and checked it out and, uh, went home and forgot about it until one autumn afternoon in September. As we smelled the Pentagon burning from our front porch in Washington DC and actually I had driven up from working down south and, uh drove home at 100 miles an hour and we met. And, uh, we said it Wouldn't it be great to be in New Zealand [00:02:00] right now And that sort of that sort of set things going, and it took a long time to quit jobs and and to sell houses and pack things up. And we arrived here. I think it was on the Fourth of July that I arrived and Luis came six months later when you came to New Zealand, Did you have any idea of what you wanted to do or we chose Wellington because it was the capital. And I was a political organiser and, uh, had worked with the liberal candidates [00:02:30] in the US and and trade unions and and, uh, free speech stuff. Women's rights, gay rights, of course. Uh, so I always thought that that that I would be doing that here, Um, I eventually found out it took a long time to figure this out, but I eventually found out that you sort of almost have to be born and bred in a, uh, specific party to, uh uh, actually do any work in it. So I even though I was told quite [00:03:00] to the contrary, I, uh it took me a while to realise that, uh, I was never going to get very far within a specific party here, and, um, and at the time, oddly enough, uh uh, the bad guys, the the national got a, uh, got in trouble. It was a bit of a scandal when it was revealed that they had hired an American consultant. So at that point, I realised Well, wow. You know, uh, even if they could, they wouldn't. [00:03:30] So, I I was sort of left high and dry and I would take these six month contracts back in the US doing union stuff and come back which paid very well and, um did that for a while, but that was becoming tiresome. And then I answered an ad off the big idea. Someone looking for a director. I had always done theatre, but it had been a long, long time. And, uh so I answered the ad and they came to Cuba Street and we drank coffee and they [00:04:00] hired me as a director, amazingly enough. And, uh, it was for a small show that was to be written called Onion for Fringe. And it did very well and, uh, in the festival and got a great review, and we ended up rebuilding it and touring it on the South Island for six weeks. I'll never forget the Timaru Herald. The review called it a must see for kiwi AFOs, which is really funny because I had written, you know, half or a third of the show and I've been on the country for about [00:04:30] 20 minutes, and it was just really it was great. It was my favourite review. So, uh, it was about a family, uh, losing their onion farm to developers in Canterbury. Great. Great fun, lots of fun. And, uh, uh, had a great time with that show. So, um, so here I was all of a sudden doing doing theatre again. It was really kind of odd. And, um, did some other things. And, you know, I performed in Auckland in a show [00:05:00] and performed here, and, uh, I I had always been shocked when I arrived in Wellington at how How people were really willing to, uh, talk about and be disgusted by Matthew Shepherd. Uh, from, um, Laramie, Wyoming, who was killed, of course, in 1998. And, uh uh, you know, Matt was 23 and very cute, and there were lots of photographs of him and just became an international [00:05:30] figure. Uh, for you know, the cause of gay bashing and, uh, and hate crimes. I was here, and, uh uh, I was amazed at this. This this sign that that that was advertising coffee called fags, coffee and, uh, their little marketing campaign that that year was this television actor with a cup of coffee to his lips and saying not as as 1 may think so. It's obvious [00:06:00] the reference with, you know, being a gay neighbourhood, and and they were making a pun on faggot or fag. Uh, I thought this was a atrocious. I just thought that fag is a is a despicable word. And, uh um, So when the Dominion Post called, what was then known gap as Gap and I was on the board, they called me, Uh, I, uh I felt II. I told them my definition of fag and where it came from in terms of [00:06:30] burning people at the stake. And it's certainly not a harmless word. Somebody else in the organisation said that, uh, you know that people were trying to take ownership over that word like queer. I felt like they confused it with queer, but anyway, it led to it led to a bit of a row. Oddly enough, in that research and looking, I wanted to make sure how fag and faggot was used in New Zealand and doing a lot of Googling. I came upon the case of Jeffrey Whittington being murdered in 1999 [00:07:00] and, uh, when he lay dying, they they kicked him to death. But the the the murderers, uh, told people 20 minutes later that they they kicked the faggot until he was bleeding out of places they never heard of before. So they they used that word faggot in a pretty despicable way. And, uh, what happened was I became really interested in Jeff Whittington and, uh, again reflecting that everybody was, and I'd [00:07:30] ask people around. What did you think? Uh, you know, when this murder happened and people say I was just a street kid, he was just this He was just that just amazed me that this kid in the third month of his 14th year murdered a five minute walk from my house. Uh, people didn't sort because most likely, he was gay. People didn't really give a rat's ass in as much as they were willing to, you know, jump on the bandwagon and and be discussed over Matthew Shepherd in the United States. [00:08:00] So I decided to do a play, went in doubt, do a play, and, uh, ended up being called the corner forum in in, and, um, was, um devised and co wrote with a group of other people and we opened, um, about four years ago, I think was this the first play that that you'd written? No, not at all. Uh, I devised [00:08:30] Cori Co co devised, um, 4 a.m. in Cuba. No, I guess I'd written some before. Uh, I have to think about that little things. Yeah, uh, nothing that big. Nothing. Not a full length play, Not 90 minutes. Uh, but yeah, it's important that the other people had a lot to do with with this, uh, this this script. It came from newspaper clippings and and and interviews. And, um, we got a lot of [00:09:00] publicity just given that and had amazing houses, like 96%. Just astonishing houses. Uh uh, uh, The the family of the murderers showed up, uh, which posed a lot of security problems. And we had to pay lots of money to to protect our actors. Uh, just, you know, people screaming in the audience in a lot of ways. It's it. It it was the best. You know, it's what theatre should be. And it was that controversial. Maybe. Could you just talk a wee bit more about how you, um, got the [00:09:30] information for the play and what were some of the challenges in terms of either you know, finding actors or dealing with families or dealing with such raw emotions because it happened quite recently in a in a quite a small town, right? Well, from the very beginning, we knew that we would not portray Jeff on stage. We also would never say he was gay or not because we didn't know. Also, we never used his last name. The information [00:10:00] came from media, and, um, and the transcripts from the first draw, Um, some interviews, um, at the last moment, um, Prue Kelly at Wellington High School was able to give me the speeches that she gave to the to the students on that day. Phenomenal. Amazing speeches. [00:10:30] Um, that were so correct that were so right at the time. Uh, she was she was wonderful and and some original music. And, uh, I hired the musician, played right below my balcony on Cuba Street, and, uh, a guy named Stu. He was a busker. And I knew that I wanted to sort of put it on Cuba Street because this was the last place that Jeff walked from the bar down on the corner. He went up here and took a right, [00:11:00] so Cuba was a was an important thing in in his life. So I hired a Cuba street busker and first and foremost. And then I put an ad in big idea and and got probably 10 people interested in performing. It was about Jeff that that brought them to the show. Did you have any, um, contact or connection with Jeff's family? Yeah, I had to, um [00:11:30] I had to get some sort of approval. The then artistic director of bats insisted upon that even though I didn't. Legally, I didn't need it legally. So, um, it was a fascinating research project that brought me to a phone call with Jeff's dad, who was serving as a volunteer [00:12:00] through that agency we have in New Zealand, Whatever that's called. He he Jeff's dad was an accountant, and I tracing Don, and he was serving in a tiny Himalayan state, and I forget the name of it Not to be not to Paul, but but, um uh and you know God, what do you do? You You ring up and you say hello. My name is Ronald. I'm phoning from Wellington. Oh, hello. Um, I'm a playwright. I'm a theatre maker. and I'm very interested in doing a play [00:12:30] about Jeff, and you can just you can just hear this guys heart stop. We each took deep breaths. Of course, it's long distance telephone to, you know, a Third World. And he said, OK, eventually or in another phone call, he said, OK, and then I made contact with Jeff's sister, who came to Wellington, and we I interviewed her in this very room for for [00:13:00] hours, and those tapes still exist. And, um because the family, the mother divorced the father like any situation. Uh, there were various opinions about the show. Her mother goes on like Jeff's mother. Rather goes on Wikipedia and rewrites things all the time and and things like that, and she's certainly able to do that. She she she thinks that we inferred that Jeff [00:13:30] was gay and, uh um, she doesn't want to accept that. That's OK. So there are, You know, there's every once in a while I'll get an email, somebody saying that I made money off of Jeff's death and and things like that. It's not very pleasant, but, um, his sister eventually came and saw the show show. So did Jeff's dad sat in the back and applauded loudly. At the end of the show, we portrayed the murder three different ways. [00:14:00] Um, in that we wanted because no one knows what happens. Uh, except these guys did it was it, You know, they were They were aligned to some some white supremacy groups. They were, um, uh, drunk or high. Was there a sexual component to to the murder? So it we portrayed the murder in three different ways and gave the the kind of the audience a choice. [00:14:30] So it's a pretty good show in terms of the style and the ideas and what we're trying to portray, I think I think it stands up. I haven't watched it on video tape in a while, but I would think that it would stand up. Um, it it was a very difficult show to do. I wasn't in retrospect, III I you know, someone needed to to take care of me at the end of that run, and there was no and because I was strung out, no one was there to take care of the actors either. [00:15:00] And we just probably needed someone to sort of debrief us a little bit. But as it turned out, the the the the cast was on stage crying their eyes out on the last performance. And, yeah, it was a real tough show. And you were saying that some of the family members for the murderers were actually in the audience as well? Yeah, What a bizarre thing. They told me that they were going to come, and, um, I said, Great. And I said, We'll [00:15:30] need to meet in the bats office. Um, you know, half hour before the show and they did, and I sat him down, I explained what the show was going to be like. It would probably be very difficult for them. I told him where the lines came from and the dialogue and pointed to all these references that we had. And I said, I will not put up with any outbursts from you all. And there'll be a security guy. I will be sitting with you all, and there'll be a security [00:16:00] guy right beside me. And that's the deal. They they agreed to that. Oh, Hells Bells. Can you imagine what it's like to sit with the family? I put myself there because I It's my responsibility, but damn. You know, I guess I've said I've had worse times in the theatre, but nevertheless, it was it was a tough time. It was a really, really tough, tough time. Um and, um, yeah, it was It was Everything [00:16:30] went fine that night, but, uh, the consequently the, you know, I. I mentioned something about Wikipedia. Uh, some of the actors have routinely gone into Wikipedia and taken their names off because they don't even want to be known for having done this show because they're scared of the of the murderers. And even even as we opened and we were putting the programme together, one guy tried to not have his name on the programme. So, um [00:17:00] yeah, tough times. It was good. How how did the families respond? After the performance, Jeff's dad fled. He didn't want to talk to me. And that's fun. I can understand that. Um, Jeff's sister, um, arrived intoxicated and had to go home halfway through the play. Uh, [00:17:30] I sent her an email. I don't think she responded. His friends? Yeah, there's lots of people in town, you know, Even now he's born. He's 14 in 1999. So that make him you know what, 25 right now? So there's lots of young people out there that went to school with Jeff and and and and knew him well. And, uh, every once in a while, I run into him. You know, uh, and and, [00:18:00] um, some of them saw the show and were deeply moved by it. Yeah, uh, and his teachers and, you know, and his neighbours and, you know, uh, gay community. Probably I never I never got I you know, my business plan for that show. I imagine half my audience would be gay. It wasn't more like 10% such a small town. You can look at 100 people and, you know, [00:18:30] you know, identify or he employed to figure out who's who's a homo in the house or not. But so, you know, that's pretty easy. And, uh, yes, less than 10%. Shocking, shocking, shocking little bit to do with it being a bat and just quite not posh enough for most some homos. But but nevertheless, it, uh, I was really shocked that they were not my key audience. I had done a thing on on RNZ and and with with, uh, nine to noon and [00:19:00] and that brought in a lot of people. Plus, there was a piece in the Dominion Post, but I had people there in their eighties and people there who were 15. So it was, uh it was a a massive cross section of the community. Does that play still affect you? Jeff still affects me. Um, In what way? Well, every time I go past him for a lucky place, if I should be walking up there or um [00:19:30] um, somebody just bought a flat over there. Uh, I was talking to him about that, and I said, Well, of course, that's really close to where Jeff Worthington was killed. Um, they tore down the gas station. Used to be I couldn't walk past that place where the gas station was, and that's where he essentially got in the car with with with the guys. Um, that used to move me every time. But, you know, the the bucket fun. We can hear it as we speak now. I mean, [00:20:00] that's where Jeff drank out of the night. He was He was murdered as a joke, you know, So he He's He's sort of everywhere, you know? Um, yeah, There was some strange kind of ghost, like stuff that was happening right before I started rehearsal for the show and met somebody when I went to Mass, um, who had walked up out of nowhere and sort of knew who I was and told me that they had had visitations from Jeff, [00:20:30] who assured me that he wanted the show to go on, You know, what do you do with that? You say OK, but yeah, that actually happened. And, uh, sort of bizarre stuff like that, and and these people weren't crazy. God knows I know about crazy, but they, you know, they weren't nuts. So, you know, it just it it had a the the the show had a had A, uh it's really, really community based. Uh, a lot of people in theatre didn't [00:21:00] see it or they had heard about it. But, you know, I hadn't had those kind of contacts at the time. And, um uh, it's always amazing when I meet somebody who who saw it. I remember somebody at the bar the other night and they started talking about it like I saw it eight times, you know, and they said stuff that I had forgotten. So, yeah, it still affects me. It's It's it's it's it's a pretty good work. I don't know if it ever can be done again, just given the ins and outs of who wrote it and who didn't write [00:21:30] it and and those sort of things. But, um, yeah, it's, uh it's, uh, the the the um there's a trailer from it on the website. At one point we thought we were gonna be able to tour it. That's why we prepared this trailer. And God, you know that that alone, the trailer alone looks looks damn good. Um, the reviews were pretty good to excellent. Um, a few swipes here and there, but nevertheless, I mean, it was just to [00:22:00] me. So when I approached say brickle about mates and lovers, I had to say that, you know, in spite of my goofy accent, um, I've, you know, I've dabbled in this sort of world before, and, uh, and in a lot of ways, Mason lover is a lot easier to approach and say, you know, Jeff Whittington and and and his murder. So maybe that endeared myself to, uh, to Chris, I don't know. Even though in the play you're not saying that Jeff [00:22:30] was either gay or straight. Do you consider the play, uh, as a as a queer theatre? How How would you define it? No, it's a play about queers. And, um, Jeff's sister was convinced that he was gay and many of his friends were. How many 14 year olds in 1998 99 were ready to come out? I mean, it was sort of a different world, even even 11 [00:23:00] years ago. Um, but given his journal and his diaries and and things like that, uh, Jeff's sister always always thought he was gay. Uh, Queer Theatre. It's queer one in terms of it being an outsider talking about an outsider. Jeff had purple hair, pink fingernails and and was an outsider. And he was an outsider who was killed and not too many people gave a damn. Uh, it's, you know, that's that's part of what Queerness [00:23:30] is. Um uh, his there there. There was a lot of talk of, of, of of gayness in the show. Um, and that made it clear, I don't know about it being Queer Theatre. I think mates and lovers is is more queer than than corner forum in Cuba. Yeah, but what's you know what's again? What's queer? I mean, um, Ed Wood. You know, uh, with the pink cardigan sweaters. Who's straight as [00:24:00] an arrow is pretty queer. Uh, it depends how you find that. Define that is a gay lesbian. Yeah, sure is. Yeah. Ben, Uh, Bud Bud, Uh, a play I did about a, uh, man in his sixties. Sort of coming out in the 19 fifties. Uh, reflecting on the, uh uh uh film. Um, that's pretty queer. Yeah, um, but [00:24:30] I probably didn't want to use that label with corner forum in Cuba in that I wasn't completely writing it. And, uh, I was a producer and director. I think I produced it. I don't know. I think I did, but, uh, I needed IIII. I, uh most of people in the cast were straight, and there would have been some sort of political problems. Small P political kind of problems with using that word at that time. It may be different now, [00:25:00] but my stuff now is certainly queer. Yeah, just going back a few years, say to the mid two thousands, Was there much queer or gay and lesbian theatre happening in New Zealand? Uh, in my travels, whether online or in person or whatever, I can I I think I have a grasp on the stuff that has been done in the last 20 years. Um, original stuff is is few and far between. Um, [00:25:30] a lot of feminist stuff was done in the nineties here in town, eighties and nineties. Hen's teeth. I think it was called, I think. But I I have Yeah, the the the the queer stuff. Uh, the original queer stuff is is few and far between. There's productions of Rocky Horror. Uh, there's two. You know, You and I talked about the the the play bent. There's a couple of productions of that in in town here. [00:26:00] Um uh, they're doing rent in, uh, in, uh, in Auckland as we speak. There's been productions in Hamilton and Christchurch. Um, yeah, that's about it. Not not much, Uh, and and I say original because that's to me. That's the stuff that counts. Um, anybody can take a a play off the shelf and and, you know Torch song trilogy. Um um and you know, do it and you [00:26:30] know that's pretty easy peasy. Do it in an interesting and engaging way is another story, but new stuff, I would say very little in the last five or six years. Mhm. Do you find yourself gravitating more towards kind of queer theatre storylines? Yeah, because you know, it's a it's the unmined gold mine. I mean, we're talking [00:27:00] about a group of people that have been around since prehistory, and no one's bothered to write much about them. You and I were talking about the the the survivors of the Nazi attempt to exterminate homosexuals during the Third Reich and, uh, how it all came out in the eighties. And, uh, by the time it did, most of those guys were dead. So there's a lot of experiences out there and a lot of lives that have been lived in a fascinating [00:27:30] and amazing way that no one's talked about in in New Zealand. It's It's particularly interesting because it's not as, uh, paradoxically, um, uh, what's a good word? It's It's It's not as confrontational as say it was in the US, and you know the uh, the religious right in the 19 eighties wasn't, you know, [00:28:00] suggesting that they quarantine fags and put them on an island in the middle of the, uh, harbour. There was a little bit of that, but it it it there was. It was far more subtle here and and, uh, a a lot less confrontational than, say in the US. But nevertheless, people's lives were lived in the closet or in misery because of this social standards. And I there's just a lot of good stories, and there's there's a lot of fun, too. I mean, it's it's a it it it it's It's [00:28:30] a community awakening, for instance, Just last, uh, about a year or so I saw a group of one acts in in, uh in Auckland by some young practitioners who were who were Asian. And that sort of thing was happening all around the other the rest of the world about in the 19 seventies. And maybe that came and went in in Auckland. But nevertheless, this was the first outing for for these folks to to begin to talk about what it's like to be Asian in Auckland or or New Zealand, and that's important stuff. [00:29:00] And so, um, what can we call it? Constituency. Uh uh. Theatre or identity? Politics Theatre? I don't know, but nevertheless, it's It's, um there's a lot of stuff out there. So, uh, Chris's book is, you know, 400 odd pages with heaps of photographic probably could have been 800 you know, And and And people, he's an academic. And and this was one thing that he was interested in, And, uh uh, [00:29:30] uh, there could be a volume two, volume three or whatever. I don't know if he'll ever do it. I don't know if he wants to spend that sort of time on this project, but there's just heaps and heaps of stuff out there. Chris's book. Um, mates and lovers, um, came out a couple of years ago. How did you What? What were the challenges for you working on a text? That was by a local author, a living local author. Well, the story goes, and it's true that I I [00:30:00] was at a conference. A friend of mine got me into a conference about queer linguistics down at the train station. And, uh, I was writing a very what I thought was a philosophically fascinating and wonderful story that had lots of sex in it in the play. And it was sort of going nowhere fast and except the sex stuff. And, uh, it was raining like hell out. And I was on a bus and had my iPod on and all the windows were fogged up. I got out of the bus, and by the time I realised [00:30:30] where I was, the bus had bugger down the road and I was standing in front of Unity books and it was pouring down rain. So I, I said, I'll dodge the, uh, I'll dodge the rain. Uh, by going into the unity books, I knew Chris's book had been released. I hadn't seen it. I walked in, saw it, saw the cover, flipped through the book and said, I can do a play on this. It's that simple. I just knew that everything was there. [00:31:00] It intrigued me. The photograph, like many people, intrigued me. The photograph of the two guys, uh, we named Corey. Uh, we named Ben and Toby, um, on the cover. And, uh, just that that, you know, the the the homo eroticism and the chairs turned backwards and the touching knees and on and on and on the different classes The one guy with a bowler, One guy with a with sort of a working man sort of garb on all that really fascinated me. And and I, I [00:31:30] just always knew that'd be component of the play. It was that easy. So who in the hell is Chris Brickle? Good old Facebook. So I go on Facebook and there he was, this sort of chair looking academic from hut, you know? So, uh, I email him and eventually call him. And, you know, probably the third thing I said to him was, And I want to do a play about your book and he says, Fabulous. [00:32:00] I thought, What a pushover. Fabulous. That's what he said. And he was happy as a pig and shit and and continues to be. And, um, um came and saw the play nervously, but just, uh, just had a great time. He took his parents, you know, for that. And and they came and we went out for drinks afterwards, and he was autographing books and my actors to have a book. So they had the script and he autographed my [00:32:30] script, which pissed me off. I'm kidding, but yeah, he was just He was just great. And And he he he harassed me for weeks, wanting autographs of the of the of the actors on the programmes and things like that. So, yeah, he's been great. He's been great. He, uh his his his his boyfriend, his partner does, uh, work at the Globe Theatre in in Dunedin. Uh, an amateur theatre company. So, um, uh, Chris Chris likes theatre, and, uh, he's looking [00:33:00] forward to the to the new show. There were so many wonderful stories in Chris's book. How did you, I guess, focus in on particular events. Well, you have to come up with a formula. And, uh, gee, that's what I learned at school and, um, how I wanted to approach it. Sure, there's lots of great stories and there's still there's lots of stories that I didn't touch. And and there's a real reason why I didn't touch them or the The formula I came [00:33:30] up with was, um, a framework of using bits of gender theory explained in Chris's book and elsewhere of, um, homos, social ho erotic homosexual. And, uh, I used those terms to divide the show up in thirds and and in terms of the homos social was, uh, these guys posing on the cover in in 18 84. [00:34:00] I'm sorry. 18 84? Yes. And then homo erotic came in 1930 something. And the the thing I wrote was one guy had lost his dog and there was just a really erotic quality of that. And the last one was in 86 or 87 after law reform. And it was it was that was a homosexual element. What I did was move it chronologically through through history and worked with the phrases becoming a sodomite, becoming [00:34:30] an Oscar, becoming a puf, becoming a queen, becoming homosexual, becoming gay. And then at the end, there was this whole element that I have to rewrite and work on the idea of post gay as well. Never says it's becoming queer. So I used the words they called us to define different sections in the book and wanted to find scenes that somehow demoing demoed those, uh, those elements. So there was a real formula. [00:35:00] And when I didn't find the scenes I, I made them up um, or I used real elements like the the the the Cantonese scene with the Chinese gold miners in Otago. I mean, Chris mentions one line about how the miners use this the the abandoned mines to have sex. Uh, and I took off on that, um, Eric McCormick. There's a little bit about Eric McCormick, and and I wrote him into into scenes. Um, [00:35:30] it was just the the the the bits on law reform, for instance, Uh, I knew all those guys are around town, you know that. So I thought if I start mentioning people's names or specific actions, I knew I didn't want to talk about what was happening in Parliament. I didn't wanna drag it down to Fran Wild and counting up votes and all that sort of stuff. I knew I didn't wanna go there. So what I did was some some original research about, um uh, this business of, um, stealing bricks from, [00:36:00] uh, work sites and wrapping them up and sending to the Salvation Army. Uh, that did. And and and some of the speech of the drag queen. You know, that II I wanted to distance myself from from law reform um, nothing about civil unions, and that was probably intentional. Um, I think if I eventually do anything about that, it'll be kind of a little SN. Maybe I'm thinking, How do you make [00:36:30] a character queer? I mean, is it in the language? Is it in the the motions? What are your thoughts on that? I think queer use language a little bit differently. I think they speak slightly differently without putting stereotypes like Lisps. Um, there could be quality of pretence in the accent. Gay men were leaving New Zealand droves in the sixties, fifties, sixties, [00:37:00] seventies, eighties, nineties. You know, they would come back from London and have a posh accent. Or, you know, they'd come back from L A and have an American accent or something. So there's something always slightly different about them. It's It's the way that you can bring somebody up on the phone, you know, bloody telecom. And you say, Oh, I got a poof. You know, you just know that right? And and and so there's that quality and obviously who they are, what they're doing on stage. I think queer [00:37:30] men are always willing to take a little bit of a risk and they'll say things that maybe they shouldn't and they'll play little games sometimes. So they think they're funny. Uh, Maya, my actors who were decades younger than me, were always shocked at my sex jokes, and that's pretty typical for gay men my age. When in doubt, there's, you know, a joke about, you know, a 4 ft dick or for instance, for [00:38:00] instance, I was talking to a bartender the other night and I pulled out my a SBF card to pay for a beer, and I thought I was clever. I held up the a SB card and I said, You know what a SB stands for? And I said, Americans are sexy bastards. And without even thinking about this guy says no, it means you have an asshole the size of a bus. Great, great funny, cool humour. And it's something that's been around for decades, right? It's the it's the you know, and this guy has. It's [00:38:30] a standard sort of queer joke. And, uh, one I used in Corner 4 a.m. in Cuba was, uh, he's about as tight as the Mount Vic bus tunnel. It's another one that has real authenticity in in Wellington, Uh, in mates and lovers was, uh, Willie's over. Well, and that's the cruising place up on Mount Vic. So all these are real. You know, all these are little in jokes that that homos tell each other. Maybe before the internet and before, uh, you know, queer folk and things like [00:39:00] that, but the, you know, any minority any, uh, uh, tribe will have their own jokes. Uh, and and those are some examples of those. So I always think that I always think the gay guys are just slightly more funny, you know, they have to be. I was at a party the other day and and and somebody was there and they made these incredibly elaborate cupcakes. This is so queer. Made these in incredible with [00:39:30] Disney characters on them. And seriously, they it's so gay. And they're like, 20 different Disney characters. And I heard these two old farts behind me say, one says, Oh, you're so clever. And the other guy says, Of course he's clever. He's gay, You know, which I thought I thought that, you know, it's really kind of interesting, you know? So whether we work ourselves to these stereotypes where we're born with those attributes, I don't know, [00:40:00] but nevertheless, it's a it's that's, I think, where a queer character comes from. Uh uh, beyond the the the limped stereotypes, uh, that are not too funny, drag queens and that sort of thing. So when you're working with actors, how do you get them to play queer without falling back into those stereotypes of limped [00:40:30] actions? I guess I think of Sam doing, uh, I forget the character's name towards the end of the show. He's there with Mark, who's on the street and they're they're handing out condoms and cruising at the same time where the old public library used to be. And, um, the character that Sam's playing is a is obsessed with superheroes, and he he goes moon walking across the stage and says, You know, we're [00:41:00] we're you know, we're armed only with latex and love, and it's just a Sam always, he says. You didn't write this for me, did you? And of course I did, you know, because I knew he'd love it. But it's just a It was just an intergenerational thing about a very sort of spunky, naive kid and and and and a much older, wiser, well worn out gay man. So who shoves him into the bugs if you remember? So, um, [00:41:30] they sort of knew those characters. And they were They were written within the lines that that that you know, how I how I wanted that. Maybe I. I wish I could think of another example of where, um, uh, look at, uh, Percy Otwell in, uh, the, uh, sea cliff, uh, asylum in Otago in in 18. 90 something. Uh, he's a young man. I think he's 19, and he's been [00:42:00] thrown in the the loony bin for kind of harassing a a younger man at 15. And, um, all those lines that were in the show were in Chris's account, and he had done that original research. Um, so, uh, the lines itself were just so impassioned that it was it was reasonably There wasn't much guesswork in building that character. Um, yeah, I'm thinking I wish I remember [00:42:30] the show. Um, but probably that happens in the writing, as opposed to the directing and the acting. Um, the the you know, the drag queens were wonderful. Uh, for instance, uh, if you remember the ones in Christ Church. And this happened where these drag queens would be in Cathedral Square and they would call out to guys that they had had sex with getting them to do to sign a petition for law reform 10 years before it was passed. [00:43:00] And it is It was it was wonderful. And that scene is gonna be expanded. And, um uh, I guess in those lines, um, I was just thinking about the 00, look, there's a sailor and and and the other one says, Oh yeah, he's Turkish And, uh uh, they're sort of cooing over this sailor and and one of the drag queens says We speak both Greek and French and which is an old gay joke [00:43:30] and and just recycled and and and brought the house down, and he, you know he would. He would gesture to his mouth and and to his to his butt, it's It's It's those sort of things that, uh, you know, they're in the lines. And and once I explained what was working, um, uh, the actors cottoned on to it really well, Sometimes they wouldn't get the jokes because they're not old enough. You know, they they they just sort of wouldn't get it. I mean, I had to explain what Judy Garland meant to queer culture. For instance, uh, which was fun. [00:44:00] And you know, these guys Well, you know, we were all you know, uh, Sam and two or three other people with the show, we all sort of enrolling in our excuse the pronunciation of this, our class a one year certificate that we're all diving in together. And we'll be having a pocket look, uh, meal every Sunday to to study this stuff So we can We can all learn together and and become, uh, better at this and, uh, uh, issues in terms [00:44:30] of the play. But But you know these, you know, Sam's learned a lot, you know, it's it's, uh you can stop on the street next time you see him and just, you know, poke him on the shoulder and say, you know, tell me about gender theory and this and that and for, you know, yeah, it's great. So, um, the research of the show is, uh, is is probably where the characters come from. For instance, I spent last week, uh, all over the Internet looking at Beastiality sites. Uh, because I'm doing [00:45:00] a seat about sheet fucking this guy. This Australian guy picks up one of the actors on the way to Wellington. Maybe he's coming to celebrate law reform or to demonstrate in one of the demonstrations, and the guy picks him up. He has a broad Australian accent and who tells them how to fuck sheep. You know how to get some gum boots on and how to pick the right kind of you and gonna know all the proper farm talk terminology. Once again, it's a real broad, nasty Australian accent. And finally, he's gonna let the kid out And, uh um, [00:45:30] he's gonna say, um, it's a little, you know, there's not many people around here If you don't find a girl, you remember what I said about, you know, the sheep and the kid is going to say, Well, actually, I I, I don't do girls. I'm I'm gay I. I like men and the Australian farmers is gonna be completely disgusted and revolting and say, That's that's perverted. That's disgusting. How dare you, God, that's against the laws of nature and God and you know that sort of thing. So you spend a week, believe it or not looking at [00:46:00] zoophilia or bestiality sites online. It's just kind of places that that this job takes me hard to explain to your friends. What do you do all day? It's amazing and disgusting world, by the way. So just speaking of, um, things like, um, perhaps decency laws and putting stuff on stage, Have you encountered any, um, problems or challenges with things like, um, uh, the physical nature of of, [00:46:30] you know, um, gay actions or skin on stage? It's always important and that as people on this planet and as the minority, we're always We see a lot about heterosexual sex and their relationships, and the world revolves around them. You know, constantly, and it's their world so but they don't know too much about us. Uh, [00:47:00] sometimes I like to keep it that way, but nevertheless, So there are some things that made some lovers that I wanted to demo about gay sex, and that was important to me. So the the the affair with the mayor, and, um, I'm so embarrassed I can't remember these characters. Say, uh, the Yikes, uh, the the whole incident with the mayor being extorted by, um, this guy and And it ends up [00:47:30] with a blow job in the, uh in the gallery and, um, Sam throwing his arms left and right and unbuttons his shirt. In fact, it's the very shirt I'm wearing now. I hate to say this, but, you know, I found in my closet the other day So the very shirt I'm wearing now, uh, he unbuttoned it and he and he he became this crucifix thing. This is my body, uh, you know, and and hallelujah. You know, the the the the What's His face Said So it was. It was really a graphic scene. [00:48:00] And there's a secret secret theatrical technique of of making sounds gurgling and gagging like you're sucking dick on stage. It's a that's a trade secret. I won't tell you, but nevertheless, it was certainly effective and and and just scared the shit out of me. So it's in rehearsal. I have my hands in my face. I'm saying, Oh God, what have I done? And so watching it on stage and and Hells Bells, Sam was into it. You would have thought that he was He was creaming his jeans. [00:48:30] You know, it was just astonishing. And, um, you know, he was he was going through those lines like that. It was It was shocking. And and, uh, you know, you could have heard a pin drop, but I wanted to say to people, Yep, this is how it works. And, yep, that can happen. And that's the way we do it on occasion. And, um, just like that, you know, uh, sex standing up five minutes, maybe four. the [00:49:00] There was another time where they were They were butt fucking And Sam was sitting on Kent, I think, uh, but they had their clothes on through that. So the only time that they were naked is when they were in the bath together. And people are naked when they're in the bath. Also didn't want to exploit these guys. And, um, they're in their underwear a lot. And, uh um, but, um, people did well with the nudity, and I felt it was completely appropriate and [00:49:30] worked really well, maybe just talking about the actors and actually casting Queer Theatre. What are the challenges of of of casting a queer theatre production? This was, uh, this was particularly hard. I used the model of putting an ad in big idea and and and at the time I, I had a far different approach to the show where I was going to use seven men, 5 to 7 men. And, uh, that's how the show was going to be. And, uh, I wanted, uh, lots [00:50:00] of different ethnicities and really just I forwarded an email around audition notice to everybody in this country and probably outside of this country. And the day came and I showed up at Toy and I had my production manager there and my lighting technician and everybody was there to help with forms and pencils and photographs and video tape and all sorts of things. And three guys showed up three guys who were all [00:50:30] too young, undertrained and kind of ignorant to the whole project. I nevertheless auditioned them and auditioned them well, the one guy said halfway through the audition in this show, Will I have to kiss a guy in every scene and I said, no, but you'll have to suck cock. It was very funny. I think I've waited decades to be able to say that I think I you [00:51:00] know, it felt so good. Uh, so, yeah, This is my world, buddy. You know? So, um, he didn't get cast. In fact, none of those guys got cast. And, uh, I had already, um, cast Sam, uh, after working with him in another little project. And, uh uh, Kent came along who had who had done some pilots of the of the show prior, and it became a two man show. So I went home and I thought, How am I gonna get out of this? Uh, because of onion, [00:51:30] Onion was a two woman show and was successful, and I'd had a lot of experience of of, uh, two people shows on stage. I thought I can do this at the time. Toy made me keep a journal of of my experiences. So I journaled the hell out of all this and the the angst and the despair and the horror of having dates and having two guys. And, you know, I really had to get my shit together and rewrite the whole damn play for two guys. [00:52:00] Shocking in the You know, uh, I'm looking for another actor. Uh, by this time, people will know what it's it mates and lovers is a is a commodity. It's on video tape. I can I can show them things and and they'll see how I do nudity. And they see how I do sex and and how the show is going to run. And, um uh, it'll be far easier. I think so, Yeah. I'm looking for a new guy now, and I think it'll be easier. I'm sort of waiting for him to come to me, So which sounds [00:52:30] a little absurd. But, you know, I've learned not to have open auditions. It was important for me to because it was such a community based show that it was that I really wanted it to open up to the gay community for people to get involved and didn't get that. Not at all. Why do you think only three people turned up for that first audition? Uh, it was a nudity. Scared them. You know, uh, and I think, uh, uh, I'm [00:53:00] a bit of a task master. I probably have that reputation. And, um, yeah, things in this town are you. It's shoulder tapped. And if you have open auditions, I think I've I've sort of formulated this afterwards. It sort of says that you're not You don't have your shit together. You you know that you're out on the street begging. Quite the contrary. I wanted to get more homos involved. Uh, the the the the guy I told that story about [00:53:30] kissing and things like that was indeed straight. And so his, uh, one of the other guys was more quite willing to take his clothes off, which was the exact opposite sort of person I wanted, you know? So that was all very funny. And and, you know, I think he's like a junior stripper or something, but, um, yeah, it's a it's a nudity is a funny thing. And, uh, it has to be used really sparingly, or it has no effect. So if you remember the the scene these guys, [00:54:00] uh, Sam carrying Kent from upstage downstairs naked and you don't even you don't even see the crotches is was lit in a way that I I didn't wanna expose I didn't want to exploit them very next day, You know, on a blog here in town, somebody is talking about, You know, Sam's weenie. Like it was a you know, public, uh, something to talk about online. But, you know, it's a risk you take. You know, it's disappointing. So would you cast straight actors in such [00:54:30] a, um, a queer theatre piece? Yeah, sure. You know, um, they'd have to learn a lot and and catch up, and and and, um, uh, they'd have to be really open. We were doing a small piece of it up at Vic for one of my classes, and I hire I had asked one of the undergraduates to run some lights for me. And after that [00:55:00] blowjob scene, he shouted across the room, He says, uh, Ronald I. I kind of felt something after that scene. Does that make me gay? I said, no. It just makes you human. You know, I just It's It's sex, you know? So, um yeah, III I it it's it's it's it's it's these guys Sam and Kent had this overwhelming sense of, you know, they had a really solid sense of responsibility. [00:55:30] I mean, we you know, I we talked about this is the first time these stories are being told and these are our people. And, uh, these are our brothers stories and and And, you know, they had that resting on their shoulders, you know? And it was It was remarkable. They they worked hard. It was a hard show to do, you know, 30 odd characters. I mean, you know, it was it was a hard, hard show to do, and but they they felt that responsibility. And [00:56:00] they rose to that occasion. Yeah. Is that had a spirit? It's a little show that could So they had a real spirit about them that didn't have much to do with me as the writer and director and producer. It it it, you know, it was empowering. It sounds so cheesy, doesn't it? But it was empowering them and, you know, and they took off on it. It was It was great. It was great. And it it'll continue to be great. I mean, you know, it's a it's a show with two chairs that we can take. The idea [00:56:30] is that we can take it to a bar or we can take it to downstage. We can take it. We can take that show anywhere, and it will continue to be like that. Do you think, actors, um maybe didn't audition because they would feel a stigma for for from doing a queer theatre piece? Um, no, there are. There are other pieces in town where straight people play gay people. It's but the the the roles [00:57:00] the roles are few and far between for gay people. So, uh, um, I don't think it's the dilemma. Comes up much. Um, so, like, Johnny Depp is the queer pirate. I mean I mean, we're not we're not at those We're not in those those those sort of competitive situations. So it, uh, it's not gonna affect anybody like that, you know? Do do you feel that you will be pigeonholed into just being AAA queer? Playwright? Is that how you see yourself? No, [00:57:30] No, Um, there's this guy in New Zealand who's written a book about people down on the South Island someplace who believe that they see Moose out in the bush. This fascinates me and and he's written a book about it. So here are all these. He goes out and he talks to these people who've seen these moos and and that just knocks me out. I said, I. I hear that. And I said I could [00:58:00] do a play in that in 10 minutes That that's easy peasy, the moose conversations or the moose monologues. I mean, this is great shit, right? I mean, the same thing, I think. And MOAs, too. I wanna believe that there's lots of people out there who think they've talked to MOAs. It's not about MOAs or Moos. It's about the kind of people that want to talk about that sort of thing. And where that takes that journey takes you that interests me. So, uh, uh, you know, there's I have two or three projects in my head ahead of me, and they're all they're all very queer. But also, [00:58:30] this is this is kind of a niche, too, and I've got to look at that, Um, that it It's a way to some people would say it's limiting, but I feel like it's it's, you know, it's, you know, there's a lot out there. Yeah, I mean, and that's what fans is all about. Uh, you know, fabulous art art in New Zealand is is to be able to, you know, it's becoming a charitable trust and which will make things easily, easier, financially and [00:59:00] and be able to uh uh, Support other gay stuff. You know, Um uh, So there's, you know, there's some practitioners out there. The goal is to eventually have a theatre festival here in Wellington once a year, which would, you know, it sounds big and fantastic, but, you know, there's three or four theatres in town. We coordinate their schedules, and we have new, um, season seasons of new shows, uh, once a year, and get the practitioners from all around the country. It's not like queers are unknown in [00:59:30] the theatre world, right? Because you know, every other one is gay. So it's It's just that we've never had a place to call home here. At least not in this decade or the next decade. Um, so that that's that's that's That's a goal. That's an idea. It was interesting, though, earlier on you were talking about, um, corner 4 a.m. in Cuba, where you were saying that the majority of the audience appeared to be straight. How how do you see your audiences? What? [01:00:00] What what audience are you targeting? Well, you know, uh, mate and lovers, um, because my mate was the was doing box office. Uh, who's a homo? and, uh, knows because he was doing boxing. He talked to everybody that saw the show and gave them tickets, et cetera. You know, he gave me some really solid numbers and I agreed with him. So my my audience for mates and lovers was about 40% [01:00:30] gay, male over 40 and the rest believe it or not, the next demographic were dykes. Who would have thought that and then the the the other 40% were, um, typically over 30. But rarely did anybody come in their twenties to see my show, which is real weird. And, um, I would have thought that these [01:01:00] 2 25 year olds during the show would have brought him in and didn't happen. And, uh uh, it may be different in Auckland, and, uh, we're gonna be working the clubs up there a lot and doing, you know, doing launches and things like that to I. I think the season will do well one way or the other. I'm just trying to get younger, queer people engaged in theatre. I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm trying to, you know, they [01:01:30] guys in their twenties thinks that they invented cock sucking I mean, it's it's, you know, it's it's just astounding. Like like any young people anywhere, I feel like they're the first people to do anything. And and I I just sort of want to tell them that they, you know, they have a history and a culture and a and a tribe that they can be proud of and and be nice to know a little bit about it. So So I'm sort of after that demographic, and, uh um, that that could be, uh, that it could be a challenge [01:02:00] to get one. When we were making this show this first time around, I used to rant about. We wanted people to come in and walk out. Having learned a little bit about New Zealand. I wanted gay people to walk in and say, Wow, we're here. We're queer. We always have been, you know, but it's still primarily a kind of New Zealand history. [01:02:30] This next season will be far pointed with things that happened here. For instance, you remember the American uh, marines? Um uh, who go up on Mount Vic and have sex with, uh, who tell that story? Uh, it, you know, they came down Cuba Street, you know, But I'll probably tie it into the, uh, the Manor Street Street riots in 1943. I'll mention that in passing. [01:03:00] So there'll be chunks of history that that that I'll be able to that that the audience will be able to relate to. It's like we're here. We're queer. And we always have been I mean, somebody I think somebody, you know, within shouting distance of the signing of the treaty were out in the bush doing Dick. You know, I want to think that I think it happened. So yeah, I mean, all those guys getting together. Hey, what are you doing after the signing? I don't know. I don't know. What do you do it? So you wanna go look at these carvings? Yeah. Let's go look at these. So, um uh, [01:03:30] I'm still thinking that I that I want them to come in and and walk out as having to learn a little bit about New Zealand. Do you have any other observations on audience reactions? What? Did you know? How did how did people react to one mates and lovers, but but also the Jeff to play as well I misjudged the corner forum in Cuba. Uh, because I There is a bit of a liturgical thing going [01:04:00] on. Uh uh. Where I wanted the actors to walk out of the theatre and lead the audience with them. And, um, I couldn't do that because of security reasons. And the actors were terrified. So it ended up with me outside of the show, um, giving people programmes. I wanted to give them programmes after the show. Nothing worse than sitting in a sitting in a theatre and watch people rustling through a programme. A fucking play [01:04:30] you wrote and they're reading the goddamn programme. So So just given the experiential quality of mates of a corner forum in Cuba and that they started outside and there was a procession thing about it and everything else. So I was outside giving them the programme and I was particularly bubbly and, you know, glad the show was happening. I you know, I was I. I had beat people up and I was trying to give them a programme. A lot of them they didn't know who I was, but a lot of them would would deny it. [01:05:00] Uh, they they they you know, they were. They were blown out. They were shocked. They they were exactly where I wanted them to be. The trouble is, I wasn't able to see that at the moment. Foolish me, mates and lovers. Um uh, it was joyous. Now I've been in this town for a while and I've hung out in the bars and I have watched famous drag queens [01:05:30] members of Parliament famous old drag queens walk into pound or whatever. But when Sam and Kent and I walked into S and M after opening night, I mean, people applauded us. I mean, it was it was shocking. I've never seen that before. And I kept on. I kept on looking behind me, thinking there was somebody behind me and it was just really It was It was very funny and and and what that was about. And Malcolm and Scottie, they come over with this massive bottle of champagne [01:06:00] and everything was really funny and wonderful and and and what that was about they weren't applauding us, but they were applauding the stories. No one came up. People came up and said, Nice job, Ronald, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it was. It was a sense of ownership immediately for this stuff that that astounded me. They felt I was just a conduit, and that's exactly what I wanted them to think. That that that that's the beauty. Oh, I just put this shit together, you know? And that's true, you know, And these guys just did it, you know? So [01:06:30] it was just, you know, it was astounding, the immediate sense of ownership and and nobody's ever done that. Imagine that you've lived your life, you know, decades on this planet in this country. Nobody's told your story. So there were just riveting moments. I think about the line. Martha, the drag queen, says. I feel like I feel like I'm still in the Army, but I'm on the other side and I can't [01:07:00] tell anybody who I really am. Like I'm part of the resistance Now. A friend of mine gave me that line, and he described that's how the way he always felt. And so to hear that on stage, another one was, uh, the two guys after the last photograph during the homosexual scene, where, uh uh, Kent, he's really stroppy. He says. They're talking about sending out the photographs to the relatives or something. Uh, and and Sam says something like, Uh uh, [01:07:30] what if they can't deal with it? And he says, Well, they'll have to deal with it. We're legal now, and Sam says, no, we're just not illegal, right? And as a homo, as a gay man, I think that kind of insight is because I'm gay and and and and and and not to also, I just didn't wanna, like, kiss the ass of the people who [01:08:00] gave us law reform and saying, Oh, yeah, Gee, you gave us basic civil rights. So you're just, you know, you're just a godly human being, you know, II, I So, yeah, that That's why it was there. There was something there was. It was acknowledging that. But at the same time, you know, there was a little bit of a twist, you know? So, you know, I may do the same thing with with civil unions. Not everything's in the same thing with the with that whole litany of hate crimes and, um um, homosexual [01:08:30] panic defence. At the end of the show, people will not walk out of mates and lovers thinks Everything's happy in Homo land, I. I don't want to portray that. I mean, um, the stat I heard on No, it was on. It was on your website. Uh uh. Gay young men are 14 times more likely to commit suicide. Astonishing. Astonishing. Not everything's happy in homo land. You know, things are much better than it was 30 years ago. But nevertheless, things are are not great. And and [01:09:00] and that's part of my job, too. How easy do you find it to get, um, mainstream media coverage of of your work? Well, RNZ wasn't interested in this time. Even even though, you know, Chris had been interviewed by Kim Hill and and things like that. Uh, yeah, they didn't return phone calls. Um, I didn't try with with Fairfax or Dominion Post or anything like that. Um, my my stuff was everything [01:09:30] but mainstream. It'll be slightly different with this new season. I think, uh, I'll probably really be striving for it because the show is bigger, and it's gonna be You know, we're looking for this to be a big show by by my standards. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not miss. You know, Maybe I retitled this thing called Miss or something, you know, it would be great, but no, it's, uh, a fun. So it's not, It's it's it's it's so I'll probably have to court mainstream media a little [01:10:00] bit more. And, uh, I tried to get on that good morning show, and, you know, they didn't return phone calls. So, um, it's because of Chris's book winning the Montana. I thought I had a hook there. And, um um, we probably need, um, some really straight people going to see the show and saying that they liked it. I mean, the reviewers did that, and they're straight. But, um, uh, they also it's funny. They also commented about the gross sex. [01:10:30] Why was it gross? Uh, because it was queer sex. That's what made it gross. And, uh, that sort of shocked me. I had this show that I you know I saw the other night, The reviewer said there's gay sex on stage or simulations of gay sex on stage. Well, not sex, gay sex, so that makes it even worse, doesn't it? You know, you know. So, um uh, yeah, it's gonna take It's gonna take, uh um this this new [01:11:00] show. It's going to have some, you know, kind of people who are mainstream and and have bigger names than I have associated with the show. I think that'll bring some of that mainstream attention. But I think it deserves a little spot on 60 Minutes or, you know, I I, you know, close up. They spent, uh, you know, avenue Q I saw in New York 10 years ago and people think, you know, and and and what's his face? I close up. Mark Sansbury sort of talks about it like it's so avant garde, you know? And [01:11:30] here's rent. It's never been to New Zealand and and you know, are we Are we able to handle it now? And it's just this ridiculous shit, you know? I saw the show 12 years ago. I don't know. It was a long time ago, and meanwhile, you know, they just kiss ass to that kind of shit. And I'm an American, for God's sake, you know? I mean, here's the stuff in their backyard, and you know, that is that is vital and and and not my show. But many many shows, like Mine are vital and reflecting culture is doing the job they should be doing. [01:12:00] And of course, they get ignored for some flash production of Avenue Q. Some, you know, direct from New York in the West End. Oh, shit, it's a it's a company they put together in Sydney. Or or, you know, Saskatoon. Or, you know, L A or some place. It's not the New York production, so I can rant and rave about that all I want. But, you know, my show costs three beers the equivalent of three pints. For God's sake, just come and see my show. You know that that that I sweated [01:12:30] on, you know, for two years and you know, and it'll be much the same way in the Auckland season. We're talking, you know, if I I you know for fags, maybe I should say that it cost 100 bucks and they'll come running, you know, because there's a whole sort of element of being posh and cool and sophisticated and rich. Maybe I should do that, but I won't. But there's there's there's, uh, you know, people didn't come and see the bats because I think it was bats. You know, if it gets into another theatre. You know that's Flasher. We'll see how that [01:13:00] goes. They went and saw a a play I truly hate called. Um Well, what's the name of it? Um, boys in the band. I saw that play when I was 17 years old, and it scared me back into the closet. It did The stereotypes and the hatred and the bitterness and the bitchiness, the horror of it all. I Oh, boy, I'm not going there for a long. It took me a long time to get over that play yet because of the name recognition, every fag, and went and saw it. And it's not a very good play. And, um [01:13:30] anyway, uh, angels in America a a truly great play. But, you know, it's now what, 15 years old. And, um, my point to all this is that mates and lovers, like many plays in Wellington, are Wellingtons or New Zealanders or Practitioners. Theatre makers. Uh, you know, they're they're writing stuff and it's it's spitting out of the printer, and it's being given to actors and actors are rehearsing it, and it's a pretty fucking wonderful scene we got going [01:14:00] on, and we're doing our job. One's gotta ask if if the audience is doing their job as well. I was interested when you were saying about as a 17 year old seeing boys in the band and how that scared you back into the closet. How do you? I mean, do you feel you have a responsibility for a 17 year old seeing your work, um, to take something positive out of it? Do you? Do you think along those lines I think there's there's too many. [01:14:30] You'll hear this. You'll hear this from old farts in Wellington. Those those kids don't even know. They don't know what we struggled for back in 84 and 86 and you know, like it was, you know, the French Revolution or something, and and, um, that's true and they never do. But that's part of being a kid. Uh, you know, it's it is probably what my dad said about the Second World War. You know, it's it's what a kid is about, You know, that's what kids do. I guess with my show in that it's history, I. [01:15:00] I want them. There's just so many positive things. I mean, if if you tell them what Wellington was like in the seventies and eighties. It was astonishing. It was a far more fascinating and a wonderful scene that it is now. I mean, the drag queens that would walk up and down Cuba Street. Uh uh, A friend of mine, uh, we were talking once and and he was talking about, you know, he was showing me some amazing underground photographs of of a cabaret sort of thing in the in the seventies and eighties in Wellington. [01:15:30] And I said So what do you think, did it? How did it stop? Was it law reform? No. Was it HIV aids? No. Well, mate, what was it he'll say? Shipping containers, shipping containers. He says, Yeah, when there weren't shipping containers, the boats have all these sailors on it, and the sailors brought in the drugs and the pornography and the S and M gear and the and the sex and the costumes and the drag. And I said, He said once they left, everything got really boring. It's fascinating, fascinating, [01:16:00] and it's it's that kind of world that I would like to. I mean, it's our heritage. It's who we are. I mean, what makes it fun. Hey, the final, uh, question I what? We talked before I actually started recording, and And I asked you if you had, um, three wishes for the, uh, queer, uh, creative community in New Zealand or even just the queer community in New Zealand. And I was wondering if, um, if if you had time [01:16:30] to reflect on that the queer creative community in terms of theatre, I guess I can talk to about I think some of it is happening. I mean, we just had a little art gallery show up the street, which is pretty interesting. It'll be interesting what the out games bring out. There's a in other places and this. I always say this. I just had a friend emigrate here from L, a gay guy. And I said, you know, in L A they'll have the gay man's poodle club. [01:17:00] They will have the gay man's, um, Porsche Club. They will have, you know. So So we just don't have that sense of organising here, and, uh, that sense of, um, continuity. Uh, when I came here, I started queer gone kiwi. In fact, I started it before I emigrated. Knowing that that that there would be a need for that. The people get together faithfully every Wednesday night, have some beers, and and and [01:17:30] and and some of these folks, it's their main circle of friendship. For the last five or six years, it's astonishing. And, uh, that's that's really endured. So it's it's I guess what I would like to see is is an understanding of our identity and guarding against assimilation. Civil unions, adoptions say, if HIV AIDS went away tomorrow, uh uh uh, would [01:18:00] we just be the average middle class sort of folks down the street who sleep with the same gender? Well, God help us because we're far more interesting than that. We're we're we're We're our own people. I have a friend of mine who says, Don't forget, they still hate us, and they do. They could pretend that they don't whether they vote in Parliament with us against us, or they can pretend that they do [01:18:30] when they're writing a newspaper or talking to the queer relatives or whatever. But in the end, they are disgusted by us. And we need to remember that and, uh, be on guard. My my wish is that that the tribe, even in a small town like Wellington? Yeah, it would be nice to each other and, uh, a little less racist and, uh uh, a little [01:19:00] bit more supportive of the things that a few people are trying to do. Ronald. Thank you. Um, you've been so generous with your time and your thoughts today, so, um, I really appreciate that. And, um, thank you for allowing us to to document it.
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