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OK. Well, I'm John Sullivan. I'm the curator of the photographic archive at the Alexander Turnbull Library. Um, been here about 35 years. And that's me, Um, Robert Gant. Robert Gant was a chemist. He was born in England around about 18. 54. Um, his father was a chemist, and I believe his grandfather also a Robert Ghent. A Robert seems to have been a family name. Was a surgeon. [00:00:30] He came out here in the late 19th century. He worked as a chemist. Um, he he actually he was a cousin of Alfred Hill, the, um, the musician and and the hill family who were very active in amateur theatricals. He trained as a chemist. Um, he worked with Mr Britton of Britain's chemists who were on, um, in in Manor Street in Wellington for many years. He set up his [00:01:00] own business in Grey Town, probably in the late 19th century. But he retired to live in, um, which is where he died in 1936 but as well as, uh, being a chemist, um, he had played a very prominent part in theatricals in In in Wellington. And we have a number of newspaper articles, which, um, reminiscences of other, um, thespians, as they call themselves, which recall his role. Apparently, he had a very nice tenor voice. [00:01:30] Um, he could use the falsetto role very well and was very much favoured, um, to play female parts and, um, things like Gilbert and Sullivan and in English of the time. So that's Robert G. Yeah, um, we don't actually know. I mean, I have no can find no record of his actually exhibiting his photography. We believe that the two albums that we have were mostly taken [00:02:00] by Gand and being a chemist. Um, it's very likely that he did know about photography because the pharmacists were the people who sold the photographic chemicals and the photographic equipment. And, um, it was in the pharmaceutical trade journals that, um, photographic news was actually dispersed in the late 19th century. So we believe that he was actually a photographer. The two albums we have, it didn't come [00:02:30] from G himself. They came from descendants of the Blackburn family. Um, of who? Um the, uh the Blackburn concerned was obviously a friend of G. And the photographs, um, mostly of young men. Um I think the best way to describe it is disporting themselves. Um, they Some of them are dressed in female attire. They're they're sort of, um, taking part in tableau, um, linked around each other. And, um, you know, captions of the time [00:03:00] as well as, um, landscapes and photographs taken on gents, um, trip back to England. I would appear I don't know exactly when that was the albums themselves. We've described them as reports on the fact I've got our cataloguing records here. And the description is, if I can just look at one of these two albums of photographs taken mainly in master in about 18 87 [00:03:30] 18 90 probably by Robert Ghent. Most photographs of individual men and groups of men often posed in tableaux and including men dressed as women. Many subjects appear to be homosexual men. Most photographs have captions, and, you know, some landscapes. Seems so that we we never presume when we're doing a description. Um, we don't try to, uh, even if we see, for example, a man, a woman and a child walking along the street in front [00:04:00] of you, we'll be a little bit careful before we say it's a family group because it may well not be so. We will always give an indication of what we think the subject matter may be. But we don't try to make overt prescriptions or put put pigeon holes on on what we're describing. Um, on the other hand, you know, we have an obligation to, um to indicate to researchers in any particular area where they may find, um, material of interest. So we'll just give an indication to people, um, who [00:04:30] who may be interested in looking at the history of homosexuality in New Zealand that they may well find material which is of interest to them here. That probably, um, is about all I can say about the Gand albums. We find the most unique. You know, we haven't, actually, um, got many albums, like Like this, um, which shows sort of men socialising together. And and and And in this manner, um, I mean, you, you know, you've got, um, albums of, um, men who are forced [00:05:00] by the conditions of their employment, um, to be together in their own company for a long time. Bushman, um, people working on surveying camps, people working in the logging industry in the back country. Um, but this seems to be more by choice, you know, than by than by, um, by than by circumstance, which is what makes it a really interesting, um, pair of albums. Do you know how the album survived in the family? No, I don't know that, uh, I do know [00:05:30] that they were obviously passed, you know, from not necessarily from father to son, but I think it it it it it sort of moved slightly sideways through the family. Is, is is is the best way I can say it, but they had they they obviously had been prized. Um, and, um, kept in one play in one piece, you know, so that they definitely had meaning for the family. Which is quite interesting in a way. Because you may think in a conventional family, the notion [00:06:00] that, um, one of their ancestors was, um, involved in sort of associations, which may well turn more conventional times later on. Appeared to be a little bit shameful, weren't considered such to this family. And I think that's all credit to them. Yeah. What do they think of the albums now? Um, I think the the the the the family. Um, they're clear. I think there's a considerable amount of pride in In in the albums. [00:06:30] Can you just paint a wee picture of what it was like in the 18 eighties in New Zealand? Was I mean, was photography widespread? Uh, who was doing it? How were they doing it? I suppose the practicalities of it photography was getting more widespread in the 18 eighties. Um, you'd got past the days of the wet plate camera where the photographer had to sort of coat the negative and put it in the camera and expose it and develop it. While it was still wet in the pitch dark. [00:07:00] You were getting, um, factory prepared plates, which were the equivalent of a roll of film. And there were photography was being done by professionals, obviously, whether port photographers or landscape or employed by the government, and also by sort of enthusiastic amateurs. And sometimes they blurred the lines, and you will may well have had people in occupations such as pharmacy, where photography would come naturally because, I mean they were selling [00:07:30] photographic materials and they would be called upon to give advice to amateurs. Um, so they um would probably have to take it up just in order to keep their hand. And, um, we only have the prints here so we don't have the plates, But it's highly likely that these were being taken on half plate and quarter plate cameras. I would say, um, which means that the negatives were either roughly 3.5 3 and a quarter by four and a quarter [00:08:00] inches or 4.5 by 6.5 inches, which were the common amateur formats of the time. And they would have been taken on a large bellows camera, you know, with a with a tripod. Um, he would probably have developed them himself. Um, the prints are albu prints, which means that they're on what is the equivalent of an EML paper, which has been coated with egg white and in which the, um, photographic emulsion is laid. I think it was slightly salty [00:08:30] egg white, which was sensitised with silver nitrate, and that sort of produces the silver chloride on the surface. Um, I think that the material that we have from the 18 eighties is is a mixture of bona fide professionals, total amateurs um, often sort of family shots and sometimes sort of not very well developed. And people who tend to straddle the line between the two, um, people who sort of made the real professionals a bit cross because they were [00:09:00] taking work away from them. But, um, we have a a few people like that, actually very good photographers who never actually hung out their shingle to say they were a photographer. But their work is so widespread that you know that they were producing for other people. I don't think Robert G was one of those, but his work was, I think of, uh, of a high quality. So no photography wasn't rare at that stage. It was becoming quite established. And shortly after that, um, you got the Kodak arrive. In fact, the Kodak might even have been around at that stage. [00:09:30] But, um, I think that he was probably working with with glass plates at that time. At that time. Was it expensive, uh, to do photography? Yes. It certainly wasn't something that, um it was It was the preserve of the middle classes. It certainly wasn't something that, um, the working class could take up at that stage you had to be committed. It's not something. It's not something you did casually. Um, [00:10:00] I think it would be on the level of, um, being interested in high and getting a good, um, stereo system at the present moment. If you wanted to do it, you would save up to do it. Um, it wasn't just a lifestyle accessory. Is it possible to go through some of the images that we've got got on the website and just talk talk about some of the detail? Well, here you've got, um, four men, um, dressed in, um, [00:10:30] the costume of the time. They're striking a pose. The chap on the left is a very short man. I you know, honestly, I don't know if that's or not. Um, what strikes me is that this is at the time before you got trick Clarisa pressed in your trousers. They all their clothes are all very tight fitting, Um, in a way that probably seems rather unflattering to us. Um, it's also interesting to me is that that body shapes change over time and that these guys, um, haven't been to the gym, you know, they haven't got the big shoulders [00:11:00] and the narrow waists that is considered to be sort of desirable today, they're all sort of fairly pear shaped. But that would have been, um, your typical physique of the time. Um, men always wore a waistcoat as well as a jacket. And what's quite interesting is that, um, the two chaps on the left here have actually done their jackets right up to the neck, um, to actually cover the West Coast. And I suspect that that was a bit of a joke. Um, a couple of them have also [00:11:30] got watch chains, and they're all wearing hats in this case, bowler hats, which is also quite common at the time. Um, what else have we here? Um, three young men, um, sitting in a very elaborate Victorian living room with their arms clefts around each other. Um, that is an unusual pose. Um, the, um going from the bottom, you have a man sort [00:12:00] of lying on the floor, lying in the arms of the man kneeling behind him, who is, um, cradling his head in his hands and leaning his cheek to his head. And the man seated in the chair behind him has his hand over the ear of the, um, chap below and that that that level of the touching of the head is is not common in in photographs of the time and sort of shows a level of intimacy which you don't often see in photographs of the period again, they're all, um, [00:12:30] all, um very well and formally dressed, Um, leather shoes, um, sort of plus four trousers, waist coats and jackets. Um, they're inside. So they're not wearing hats. Actually, it was actually taking photographs inside was actually quite difficult. This was probably taken with the flash. Um, the background is very dark. If you had to read that photograph as what it's actually saying What? What would your interpretation be? My interpretation, um, [00:13:00] would be that these were three men who were It looks a very natural pose, actually, um, they they're not, um, ashamed to show, um, their intimacy. Um, I don't think they're joking, actually. I mean, it doesn't look like a jokey photograph, which, you know, the sort of savage club thing. Um, and I think this is a very natural post and that these, um, are three young men who I would describe as very close friends. You know, it's it's it's I I'm not [00:13:30] sufficiently familiar with the mores of the time to be able to go any further than that. But you know, these These are the three young men who are very obviously very intimately connected, connected with each other. Yeah, I don't It doesn't. There's no sense that, um, they're hamming it up. There are a number of these photos which look like they from theatre productions, or we're looking at a a portrait of a young man staring up. What would you say about this? I don't know that it's actually from an actual, um, [00:14:00] production. Um, but a photograph. You know, um, using props. It's probably, um, intended to, um, convey some sort of, um, emotion or sensation, such as hope or forbearance or suffering. Or or some such, or some such. I mean, these kind of you had, um, in the sort of area of romantic and pictorial photography. [00:14:30] Um, every photograph had to have a caption like, um, homeward bound or, um, hope or faith or something like that. And this seems to fit that kind of a caption. It's only a head and shoulders portrait I see, and he's obviously been told to. No, it's actually, yes, it is. Head and shoulders. Um, he's wearing some type of loose fitting costume, which could be a monk's cowl or some such. And he's got his head seemingly resting against a pillar, [00:15:00] and he's looking rather hopefully and pensively upwards. Yeah, um, you have a young man sitting at what appears to be a dining table. He has a cup in front of him. A very young man, Actually. He's sitting in a window. The light is coming in to the side from a window. There's what appears to be a glazed photograph, Um, sort of sitting at an angle in the window itself. [00:15:30] Um, the impression you get is of a young man of rectitude and substance is what I think this is trying to show, which is at odds because he's a very boyish person, that kind of, um, in situ shot of somebody like at a breakfast table. Was it a Was it a common thing back then? Not common. We have a few photo photographers who actually, um, did take domestic photographs of this nature. Um, AC Gifford Gifford, the, um [00:16:00] uh, a teacher at, um, Wellington College and a, um, who founded their, um, astronomical observatory was a AAA. Photographer. In this vein, he took photographs of his family sort of sitting up in bed or at breakfast. Um, would they have to sit for a long time in terms of length of exposure? At this stage? I don't think so. Because photography was actually getting a lot more modern for want of a better word in the 18 eighties, Um, the emulsions were getting, um, more [00:16:30] rapid, more, more more sensitive. And, um, providing you had a good flash or a good. And it is a quite a heavily, um, shadowed, contrasting image. And he's only lit from the window. You wouldn't have to sit for too long. Yeah, you had to set it up right, though this one is of a young man at his es in a rocking chair. Um, he's taken from the side in a very heavily. Uh, I don't know if it's the same room as the other image or not. [00:17:00] Um uh, a very typical, um, Victorian drawing room with sort of violently patterned wallpapers and pictures all over the wall. Was that quite common to have a lot of pictures on walls. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Um, and, um, everywhere. See, there's a little sort of corner niches too. Again, you know, every everyone is is very well dressed. Um uh, in, um, Dr Waistcoat [00:17:30] and jacket, Um, even at ease. They were They were formal, and he's sort of lying back, having a doze. Um, I find it hard to say whether this is posed or whether he's sort of sneaked up on the sky and observed, Are there any common themes that run through all these photographs? The fact that, um, everyone does seem rather relaxed and comfortable with the photographer and that the fact that they are intermittent domestic, which [00:18:00] you don't often get, um I mean, we have, um, at around this period, I think we have two other collections which achieve a similar level of, um, and sort of informality and intimacy. There's the Gifford collection, which I've just mentioned, which is possibly a bit later, the, um, photographs of the lawyer named I think Charles Fell, who was an in-law of the Atkinson's of [00:18:30] Eastbourne, who took photographs of the extended Atkinson Richmond Atkinson family, um, in Eastbourne and um, in Nelson. And the sounds are similarly sort of, um informal. Um, when you move on to an image like this, where you've got what looks like two men embracing and kissing, um, that must have been quite unique. I would think that is is is indeed quite unique. Um, you don't often see anything as as sort of explicitly [00:19:00] sort of romantic as that. Um, in in photography, you don't often see photographs of men and women kissing, to be perfectly honest. Um, um, displays of intimacy like that I have not seen at this period, which was 18 eighties, 18 nineties. This, um it does look more posed than the other photographs we have to. But even even to pose such a photograph would be a very daring thing to do. [00:19:30] I'm not entirely clear where they were taken. I would say they were taken in some sort of large rural establishment. I mean, um, for want of a better word, you wouldn't want to be disturbed, would you? Uh, and, um, I think, um, a country rather than a town setting would be would be more likely seems to be the corner of a sort of a rather A working building, like a barn or a, um, a farm building. It seems to be something like a large basin, uh, sitting [00:20:00] on the step beside them. I don't know what that's all about. Um, the gentleman who is the older partner is wearing a bowler hat and carrying a cane. Um, you sort of wonder if they are setting up some sort of a tableau here. Um, of, um, the gentleman and his younger friend as it were, that kind of style of dress. Was that Is that a formal style? I think this is, um, sort of daily [00:20:30] business wear daily. Getting about we I mean it. It seems formal to us, and I say formal because it seems very formal. Um, much more rigid than we would be used to. Um, but, um, for actual formal wear, they'd probably wear something in the way of a cutaway coat and or or black and black, as opposed to brown. And they'd wear black, I think. Yeah. Uh, no. This would This would be sort of day to day where they also seem to be plus fours that he's wearing, which he wouldn't be wearing out to dinner. I don't think, [00:21:00] um, these two photographs I'm looking at now, um, appear to be the same young man. Um, and one. He's an oblique profile head and shoulder shot, and he's looking away to his right. Um, he's quite heavily shadowed. The light's coming in from his, right? Yeah. I think he's wearing that, um, what appears to be either a large blanket or a large costume and a in a rather [00:21:30] sort of monkish style. He's got very short cropped hair, too. And this other photograph is the same young man. Um, just wearing a shirt and looking directly at the photographer. I mean, that's a very sort of, um, intimate and connected portrait, I think. And, um, that's not all that common, you know, even, you know, with photographs of [00:22:00] women at at at that time to have such a, um, a direct connection between the photographer and the subject. Yeah, and they they look very relaxed. Especially extreme relaxed. Yeah. Yeah, they do. Yeah. This one in particular. Yeah. He's very much a disease with the with the with the photographer. Hm. One of the final images [00:22:30] is, um, what appears to be like a AAA sailor kind of costume and did Did did Robert G have any kind of fetishes going on with his photography? Um, sailor suits appear quite often, but, you know, the sailor was a was a stock theme anyway, and sort of Children wore sailor suits and, um, I. I haven't sort of noticed anything specific there. He's also got a pair of shoes, which he's tapping together. I don't know what's going on there. Um, [00:23:00] I think that this sailor seat was probably like a cowboy outfit, you know, a sort of a a stock. Um, a stock theme of fancy dress. It doesn't appear all the time. I mean, a lot of them are. There's the monkey outfall as well. No, I don't. I. I didn't see any particular sort of, um, any sort of I'm not gonna say overdue. In fact, in the sense, that's wrong. But I didn't notice any great preponderance of sort of naval [00:23:30] photographs. No, there was, um I think when I was looking through the albums, the two things that stood out for me were shoes. And did he have a bit of a thing about, um, like an execution of block. I think he did have that on occasion. Jokes about executions were quite common. I mean, one of the photographs that's in the fe, um, album is, um, is called Blue Beard wives. And what it is is these women and girls have poked their heads through. There's a sheet with slits in it, and these women have poked their heads through. [00:24:00] And, um, their hair is sort of tied up to a pin at the top of the sheet as though that's about four dise decapitated heads, Um, sort of, um, pinned up to the sheet, Um, so that they, you know, they sort of the zombie pictures of the time, I think did. Did Did Robert continue taking photographs? Or was it just from from that very short period that you've got the two albums from? I haven't seen any indication of any other albums or or any other photographs? [00:24:30] Um, and as I indicated also in in doing research on on papers past on this occasion, um, I haven't seen any more further indication of his work as a photographer. I mean, people do give things away, particularly if it's expensive, you know, and time consuming Um and I do know of photographers who, um, from earlier periods, who had a certain period of activity and then appeared to give it away. So, [00:25:00] um, sort of the jury's out on that one. Really? He didn't make a big thing of it. Anyway, I don't think. Does he have any surviving family? I do not think so. His in fact, I've got his death notice here. Um, on July the 5th, 1936 at CT and Robert G and his his 83rd year. No mention of family, no mention of connections. Um, certain he didn't marry [00:25:30] and there were no Children. And what does the other one say? Um Robert, son of a BG chemist of Woolwich and grandson of Robert Gant, surgeon and his 83rd year cremated at today. Now there is an obituary which I'm just going to find here, too. No, there is no mention of any family in the obituary. It just says after leaving the service of Mr Britain, Mr Gant went into business on his own account in Grey Town and later retired to [00:26:00] where he had resided for 10 years. So he moved there in 26 as I say, he was, um, a cousin of the hill family who are very much around. And that would probably be the closest relatives in New Zealand. Single man, but obviously, um, known, cared for and supported. Not a not a Not a single recluse, Um, a [00:26:30] man with his own place in the society.
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