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Rob. My first encounter with you was seeing a television clip with you and Neil Costello in 1985 and it was in. It was during law reform, and you were talking about a self defence course. Can you tell me, um, about that and where that kind of came from? Ah, 85. Yeah. So there was quite a burst of G up stuff going on, and, um, from my perception, a lot of that sort of grew out of [00:00:30] the uni out of Victoria. Um and, um, I sort of as a generation of activists, many of whom we sort of got, I suppose, blooded together through Springbok tour. You know, with that sort of, um, we were all at back half live together, you know, Um, so this is 23 years before, So I shared a house with, um with Neil and, um, some and a number of women, Karen and th and who who were [00:01:00] very much part of the, um, tour, the anti tour stuff. It sort of it built from there. And that's so I sort of came out in into, um, into that. So I came out, um, from my first year of uni, which I think was, um, 81 or 82 which was the year of the tour. It was that and, um, so I never finished it. I only I only did six months of uni. I never finished any. So, um, I, I, um I basically did politics for that. And, um, for for that and and we had a really strong there was a really strong [00:01:30] sort of queer sort of sub part of that. And to stuff not particularly out or not. Not particularly kind of visual, but we just that was how we knew each other and things. And, uh, I went, went we just went from there. And most of a lot of the political gay political stuff in and the switchboard and stuff were funded by the dancers up at Varsity. Yes. So 85 you know that, um, self defence I, I think was just there was this real activity of stuff going on, you know, And I remember a lot of the [00:02:00] the dikes and us we were We were doing it together because, you know, there was violence going on, you know, and and and you know, it was it? It was that, um, you know, we just I think, you know, we just felt like we needed to be ready for it. And, um, thingy who ran, who ran the self defence? She went on to run a sort of, like a business or in self defence and training in self defence. And I think at that point, me and me and Neil were lovers, and, um and I just have some, um I just always [00:02:30] have this vision of, um, going home. I don't think I was I wouldn't have been living at home, but going home and my family, you know, my dad and mom were having dinner, and this was on the It was on the TV. And, um, it was just very awkward. Very awkward moment, because he's me. You know, I think I had this huge mane of hair and, um, earrings. I used to wear huge earrings, and, um, Dad was just, like, kind of speechless, you know? And, um so it was very funny. [00:03:00] Well, it was very funny, wasn't it? And, um, but that that's and but there was just that this amazing sort of, um, you know, energy leading into all that law reform stuff, and it it just brought out a whole lot of other stuff. It was like, you know, it was a catalyst for a whole lot of other stuff, and and for us, I mean, I actually started off through the switchboard. Um, when I first came out the down at the street, you know, in the in the basement. And, um, so the switchboard used to be funded by the dancers and the, [00:03:30] um the community centre used to be funded by dancers, and we we just sort of took it on a bit as a and so we made it, you know, renovated it and just got sort of stuck in. And that was and that was where the, um what was it called then? You know, the the archives were there, and Phil Parkinson was looking after the archives. Um, then at the same time as well, So it was everything was just in the one place, you know, in street. So was this usual for somebody just coming out to be a part of all of these kind of activities, or [00:04:00] were you a, um I don't know. I kind of, um, I did come out with a bang, you know, because, um, I had quite a, uh my my parents were quite conservative on Christians, and, um, I, you know, had a fair coming out. And so it was a It was a bit of a rebirthing for me, and, um, it, you know, it did feel a little bit like coming home, you know, And it was coming home to politics, really? To me, Um, [00:04:30] which was, you know, I've never really been particularly political at school. And, you know, I went to a private school, went to Scots and, um, you know, didn't didn't really do anything there, you know, because nothing I mean was was it was not like I. I was particularly political or or were there. My family weren't, um I don't know. I just It was like I just found it, you know, And I think I probably it was a combination of of the mix I. I think, um, there was a lot of activism at the time, so because I The first thing I really got involved in with [00:05:00] was men's was men's movement stuff, um, started off around assertiveness. Um But then we set up a thing called So the women had a thing going called, um, women against pornography. And so we had men against pornography, and we were doing, you know, we were, um, you know, doing a protest outside miss New Zealand contests. And we did some stuff with, um, teenagers at school around men and pornography. And, um, yeah, so there was, like, a feminist [00:05:30] thing going on with that as well, And, um, like Chris with this was a big part of that. I think he is in Melbourne. Yeah. Um, yeah. So So we did the map stuff. Um, I did a lot, you know, I was doing a certain training and things with the men's movement thing, half of whom then ended up being gay. I mean, I was I was sort of, you know, I came out and then got in that stuff because I really enjoyed it. You know, I thought it was really interesting. And then but But it was, um I loved the community centre stuff. I loved [00:06:00] that the work and the way and the people were amazing. And it was just, um it was quite a powerful community to to come into, you know? So So what was the community centre? So it was a drop in place a few nights a week. Um, and it was it was really the hub of where things going on. You know, um, I have so many memories. I mean, I can remember, I think must have been. So Bruce Burnett came. Bruce Bennett came back from [00:06:30] from San Francisco, I think, came back with an American guy. And I remember they came down and had a sort of, like a little meeting. And, uh, I think with counselling service people, uh, or switchboard people. And we're talking about this American thing, this thing that was happening in the U. Um, and you know, HIV. But, I mean, I can remember what we call it then and they were like, This thing is going crazy, you know? You need to be aware of this. And that was you know, that was when we, you know, that was sort of when we started some of that, um that work as well. [00:07:00] So that would have been what, around 80 83 84 I think. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So? So like it literally was just really alive, you know? And, you know, there were lots of great relationships, lots of great networks. We had some really nice stuff with the the the Dykes. You know, we, you know, kind of. There were these really sort of interesting alliances of, you know, they were You know, a lot of they were, like, radical and separatists and stuff like that. And then we would on on particular things, and it was just a Really I thought [00:07:30] a really interesting time, you know, I got I can't remember when. Um, do you mind if we go all over the place a little bit? Um, yeah, because, um, because no. No, because it must have been when I was with Neil because I married a separatist, Um, who was a She was a refugee from green and common. You know, the lot of the women from the UK came out here or came out to New Zealand because of their fears about their nuclear stuff and was one of them. And so I married her [00:08:00] to give her residency, and, um, you know, it was like this. It's a very funny thing because she was. She and her mates were like they were serious separatists. And then we had this this wedding where they were all in the only dress they could find. Um, and the marriage celebrant was who was Who was a woman. She had no idea what was going on, but she was very clear. She knew very well this was There was something going on. And, um, and we had I. I don't know where they are, but we had these great photos where we did the, um the [00:08:30] traditional wedding photos. And then we had the alternative wedding sets where me and Neil and, um all of the, um And I think we took, they had I think there might have been drag involved, I think somewhere. But, um, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then, um, we're trying to do all that stuff about, uh, her getting citizenship. And they were very suss because she was about 35 you know, And I was 20 or something, and there was this whole thing about, you know, why was I marrying this woman who was older than me, and, um, it was quite handy because we were able [00:09:00] to say, My my family didn't just didn't approve. Therefore, they kept my family right out of it. Um, but because she was a separatist, I wasn't allowed in your house. And, um, you know, you have to do all this thing of Oh, what colour is your toothbrush and all that sort of thing. And, um, you know, we we had to do these tests of, you know, and what sort of you know, some of those in case we were asked those sort of questions. But as it turned out, you know, in New Zealand at that time, most of that was about keeping Polynesian people out. So, you know, we were both white, and [00:09:30] they, you know, they were worried about, you know, they were like, they they they thought it was a bit dodgy, but I don't think they thought that much about it. You know, she was sort of middle class. I was middle class, so it was wasn't a big deal for them. So what What year was this? Oh, must have been 83 84. Um, because when I was yeah, because I was love with Neil, and, um, we didn't I. I got divorced, um, to come over here because my father made my father, [00:10:00] found out about it and kind of went completely ballistic and basically said that I had to get divorced before I could leave the country, you know? So that was very roundabout, but I think kind of I think the the it just was it just an amazing time to be involved, you know? And, um, I thought it was a really powerful community, and it sort of worked for me. And, um, there was, you know, Wellington was always very, um, quite stratified in terms of, you know who was where and social and political and, you know, and, um, the uni [00:10:30] gays and, you know, it was always quite stratified. And, you know, it was just a sort of, like, an interesting mix for me, you know, and learning a lot. And, um, you know, kind of a particularly on broader politics, because the after the tour, um, there was this big deal after the tour about all the Maori activists sort of going Well, hang on. How come you spend all this time about South South Africa and you don't talk about, you know, Maori here. And that was a big you know, a lot of us thought that was a big, big deal and, you know, kind of a lot of awareness raising and, you [00:11:00] know, big fights and arguments and that, I think, moved things on a lot, you know? Yeah. Just taking you back to the 19 seventies. And, um, I just want to kind of get an idea of what it was like for, um, a young gay person in Wellington. What? You know what? What kind of things were on offer, You know? What did you do? How did you meet people? Um I mean, there was nothing on offer. Really? Um, so when did I [00:11:30] I was You know, I, um I got a sexually acted pretty early. Probably about 13 or 14. Um, and that was all beats. Um, and then, um, we were the beats library. Wellington Library. Um, was mostly it. I think I kind of And there was a sauna. I'm not sure about the town hall, and I can't remember when. I. I think I might have gone there. I might [00:12:00] have gone there like, once or, you know, like and freak and not gone back or something for a long, you know, for a long time. So and then, um you know, I I met. You know, I got to know a few a few guys over, um, over a period of time, but the visibility was, like, completely zero. Like I can remember the first time. And I think it was about 77 the first time I ever saw two New Zealand guys on TV. And, um, Robin Duff. Would that be right? Robin, I think Robin Duff was [00:12:30] one of them. Um and, you know, kind of just been amazed. Amazed. And, um, I think that was about 77 or 78. And all those those memories, I got all those real and I remember seeing I think that good civil servant was on TV, and I remember there was this elaborate out about how much I wanted to see it, but how? I had to not let anybody know. I wanted to see it, and it was like, you know, well, maybe we could watch that, Or maybe we could watch something else. And, um, you know, I don't [00:13:00] think Do we have a video. I don't think we had a video. So it was just this thing. It was like this thing on TV, and I was desperate to watch it. And But, you know, I think maybe my brother-in-law wanted to watch rugby or something like that. And I can't remember where it how it ended up. But I remember that, particularly about naked civil servant. And, um And then there was that place in there was that place on the corner of Cuba Street and the sort of like the red light, you know, the red light. Sort of. Yeah. Yeah. So there was that and there was a There was a shop [00:13:30] on the corner, like a card shop, and he had this under the table. Gay porn? Yeah. And, um, you know, it was like, you know, sort of like, kind of if you knew where to look. It was, like, you know, kind of had and that was, you know, you know, I think that would have been, um, same sort of. Maybe I would have been 14 or 15. Something like that. Yeah. So it was all incredibly, you know, incredibly. Um and, um, think of who else. I mean, in terms of there was a when [00:14:00] I was about in form three, there was a guy I had a bit of a relationship with, who who was in form three. And, um, I wasn't sort of, you know, I wasn't particularly, you know, kind of sort of flamboyant or anything like that. But, um, I just wasn't interested. I wasn't interested in, you know, kind of, um, you know, in in all in sport and stuff. And my father was very, like, kind of, uh I always remember sitting. So [00:14:30] when I went from, um, Saint Marks to Scott sitting, um, with him at the principal at Scott's and him saying, um my father's father said, Oh, you know, he spends too much time with girls, you know, And the and the principal was like they had this knowing look, and it was like, Oh, we'll sort that out, you know? And, um, you know, So it was and, you know, was that sort of school, You know, even though there were a lot of gay teachers there, but I didn't know that they were gay at the time. Um, yeah. So it was that sort of a thing. So, um, I came [00:15:00] out when I was 18, Um, and so that, like I said, when I was at uni, so before then, um, you know, it was already close. I got done by cops a couple of times on beat on the beat one time, sort of really badly, you know, not sort of beaten, but just, you know, like, you know, surrounded and yelled at for, you know, about how they're going to tell my parents and all that. You know how I was about 15. I think, [00:15:30] um, and yeah, so and I can never remember the timing, but I sort of tried to commit suicide at one point, and I think it was after that. Um, and it was just weird, you know, it was a weird later, you know, sort of 5th, 6th, 7th form. Was this weird time of, like, you know, for lots of people of I was starting to be pretty clear what was going on. I've been through, like, you know, So my parents were Presbyterians. Um, fairly [00:16:00] full on. Um, my dad was very full on, and so I, uh, I went through a phase of trying to, You know, I figured what was going on and how to see if I could fix that. And I couldn't do that. And, um, then drink. I was a lot, you know, drank a lot in those last couple of years at school. And, uh, first up at school was one of those, you know, because I did scholarship and stuff like that. So, um, but like, I [00:16:30] was blind drunk the night before my scholarship exam. So I I passed the exams, but I never got scholarships for him or anything like that. And then, um uh, I went to So my grandmother died, I think at the beginning of that year or something of my last year at school. And so I think she left me a couple of $1000 or something. And I went to, uh, like, a three month trip when I left school to Europe, and it was that that, you know, changed a lot. It was even though, like, because I went, you know, even though London wasn't really, you know, in [00:17:00] that sort of 1980 it wasn't, um, particularly open. It was just so much more open, you know, and, um, I went to go to San Francisco. I went to Los Angeles, and I just just this different sort of feel, you know, and I I just came back and I remember coming back and going to uni, seeing all the stuff going on and these guys who I got to know over the years, I was sort of saying to them, So I don't really want, you know, want II. I don't like being like this. What am I gonna do about it? And they were like, Oh, you know, because [00:17:30] they were all old closer to guys and stuff like that. And I thought I didn't think I wanted to do that. And, um then I met, you know, I just sort of started to get into the the uni stuff. Um, and and it all happened very suddenly. It all happened over really over the end of the first term at uni. So, like, kind of like the you know, kind of. I was, you know, I was doing a a double, you know, um, economics law degree going, you [00:18:00] know, going to be a diplomat. And then, um you know, I think for me there was this thing where I decided I didn't want to do law anymore. And that was when I, you know, that was the first time I've ever said to my father I know I'm not doing this, and, um and that was the start of it. Really? So I did that. And then, uh, over that course of that summer holiday of that of that holiday, that term holiday, I just sort of completely flipped. And so I went back the following term, [00:18:30] you know, Pierce earrings covered in badges. And never, really, You know, I, I I've been in that first term with all my school friends and really didn't see them much at all. You know, after that, it was all my gay friends and lesbian friends after that, and and it went on from there. And then I think later on that year, it must have been when the tourists are Maybe I think the two must have been in spring or something. So, um, you know, So then I will kind of got involved in that, and I [00:19:00] I started, um So I left left uni and became a gardener, and, um, and really spent the next years because I was a garden until I left New Zealand. So, you know, really doing the works and then doing all the politics stuff at, um, you know, at night and things like that. And And I I had this amazing boss who was, um you know, um, I'd call him and say I think I've been arrested. So, um and, you know, because I've been going to a demo at [00:19:30] lunch time and and he was OK with that. So, you know, and he was great. And, um, that was just It was just how how it developed. It was like, you know, it really was a lot, a lot like coming home. And the politics just sort of unravelled, you know, before you and all of the linkages, and and, um and so I was down the track, so, you know, we order different bits of it. So Neil and all of them were mostly were doing the student stuff. Um, [00:20:00] I was a lot involved, so I did a lot of stuff around the community centre on the switchboard, and, um really, we went from there and the switchboard. There was a lot of the community centre was where a lot of people did their first coming out. And, you know, so you know, because I was sort of to talk to people and all that sort of stuff, and you know that, you know, people would hang out there for a while and then head off, you know, kind of to wherever and it was. And then I was, you know, with Phil. [00:20:30] And I think all the different people with the archive, where we, you know, you know, Phil was the real driver behind all of that, And, you know, we weren't so much, you know, librarians. But it was more that, you know, it was interesting kind of history history. And it was also it was a place where, you know, you were getting all this amazing stuff from the US, all of these, um, all of those journals and stuff about what was going on in politics in the US and Canada. And, um and it was, you know, just this amazing eye opener. Really? In [00:21:00] the UK. Yeah. So, um, so that it was a real source of that. And, you know, a place to talk about it and you know, the switchboard group was this amazing network, you know, Did a lot of stuff together. Um, you know, you know, we'd go. We do training weekends and do you know, it was a really strong sort of group, and we all were very, you know, we were all very possessive about the community centre, and that was our sort of space and making it good and making it work for people. Yeah, so it was. It was nice. And then, um, then [00:21:30] the two other. So the two things that were going on so there was so HIV was starting to happen. And then there was the politics starting to happen in terms of the law reform, and they both sort of, in a sense, unravelled a little bit differently. So the the HIV stuff really was a bit through it came through the switchboard, you know? So that was sort of the logical thing. Neil Thornton. I think, um, he was a psychologist, and he was one of the people behind, you know, like all the all [00:22:00] of the the the ethical type stuff with the switchboard about, you know, track counselling and their responsibilities. And he took. He took that sort of stuff really seriously. And then Bill was the sort of the bill. Bill Logan was sort of like the strate strategic political sort of brains behind it. And, um, they were They were, you know, kind of, um, a range of people who, you know, kind of We were just all a part of making it sort of, um, you know, kind of making [00:22:30] it work. And in terms of the HIV stuff, Sorry. Before we get on to the HIV stuff, um, with the with the switchboard, Can you tell me, um, just just a wee bit more about the switchboard. Like, what was it there for? Because I think, you know, people growing up now would maybe not have an idea of of the phone. There was no issue at all. Yeah, and I mean, I can't remember how so it's all really low key, like, I think there would be the ad in the paper two or three [00:23:00] nights a week or something like that. And I think it was a I can't remember how many nights it was on. It was on an evening thing. And, um, you know, three or four nights in an evening. And there was this tiny little room, like, probably the size of a bathroom, Um, with a phone in it. So and it was beside the community centre. So you'd be, um you know, you'd be sitting there and it was never a you know, it was never a, you know, constant thing. I mean, you know, kind of, uh, people. Not a lot. They were never We didn't get crazy. [00:23:30] You know, we didn't get crazy calls. We didn't get abuse calls. As I recall, that much, you know, um, you know, there were not quite, you know, not quite sure type calls. And then, um, a lot of, um, you know, a lot of first contact type calls, you know, we met, some of which would be with people who, you know, come down to the community centre and talk and all that sort of stuff, Some of which people just wanted to talk to talk to someone. And, um, [00:24:00] that was all you did. And it was really just about, um, mostly about listening, you know, because it was, um it was pretty heavy. So it was No, it wasn't about safe sex or anything like that. It was just about, you know, it's OK. You know, often it was about, you know, where do I gonna meet someone? Um, but a lot of it was just about It's going to be OK, you know, And, um, you know, Yes, that's right. I'm gay as well. All of that sort of stuff. Yeah, And this is how it was for me. And this is how my parents [00:24:30] are. So it was really, um it was, you know, it was a huge deal for a lot of people. That must be incredibly hard. I'm, you know, trying to put myself back in that position. Where if it wasn't necessarily that visible, if you didn't see people out on the streets and if it was illegal to actually have a, um a good feeling about yourself kind of hard because there was nothing around, you know, there was no visibility. So, um, you know, in terms of and that notion [00:25:00] of because my father was, you know, my my my father, you know? So, um, you know, I came out the the night I came out to him. He sort of said, Well, you know, that's it. Then you obviously doesn't gonna You know, you're not gonna have a life. And, um, you know, I don't have any any expectations of you anymore And that sort of stuff. And my mother was It was, you know, it was probably worse my mother, because my mother said to me, Oh, well, at least your grandparents are dead, you know? So, um, you know, and I loved my grand my grandfather very much, you know? So [00:25:30] it was weird, like I never I could never forget that, You know, that changed over time, But I I could never un hear that, you know? And, you know, that was that sort of stuff. You know, it wasn't that unusual, Those sorts of responses, you know, there was nothing out there for anybody else to see. Um, and so, you know, it was a huge deal. Even someone picking up that phone. We always used to think that that was you know, the fact that someone rang. It took me three times [00:26:00] to go down the stairs, you know, to go there and stuff like that. And, um, we just always used to go, you know, it's huge that you just called, you know, And you didn't hang up or most people would ring once and hang up that, you know, they can call again and stuff, you know? And, um you know, um, I they might or might not tell you their name, all that sort of stuff. But off, you know, so much of it was like, you know, it's probably gonna be OK, you know? And you couldn't do, you know, you couldn't, um, [00:26:30] you know, because you would have not You couldn't say stuff like that about parents. You know, you just you know, if people are like, Oh, should I tell your parents? You know, you would never know how someone's parents might be or anything like that, so you could talk a little bit about how it was for, you know, I could talk a little bit about how it was for me that I had friends like me as well. But, um, you know, you know, it was really hard to, you know, you couldn't make promises to anyone about how what it was going to be like, you know, for them, particularly if they weren't in Wellington, you know, if they were in or, you know, they weren't in Wellington. And, um [00:27:00] because then who knew? Really? And I think that's why things like uni uni and is still, you know, uni groups and stuff like that. It was just It's that thing of escape, you know? You know, people come to a big city, they come somewhere different, and they have a licence to do some different stuff, you know, and away from the surveillance. Yeah, So was gay switchboard. Uh, was that the kind of first port of call for, um, people talking about HIV? It turned into it because, um, [00:27:30] my memory is a little bit hazy on this sort of stuff. So I remember Bruce and, um, the other guy coming and I was figuring out we need to do something. And Neil Thornton was very much part of that. And Bill Logan was very much part of that. And, um, Phil Parkinson was part of that because he was getting all of this stuff from the US. You know, um, and Neil through because I think Neil worked at Wellington Hospital so somehow or other, he was getting some sort of connection to that through some of the doctors because they then, um, So we then start, I think it was a [00:28:00] AN. I think a support network was what the first thing we did. And, um, it was really with us starting to think about what? What might we need to do? Because I remember. I think we did some training on, and it was a It was The idea was it was a a caring type thing. Um, but the first thing that ended up happening, So it was when I was 21. So Gary, pretty sure, Gary. So he came. My first practical experience was he came back from Sydney. [00:28:30] Uh, very sick. Uh, and his parents were just awful, just terrible. So he came back to his parents with his parents, and they were terrible. So, um, I ended up, you know, he was about my age. So I ended up sort of hanging out with him, so it was more like a, um and it ended up being a bit more like a so in Australia. In Australia, we have a thing called which is more like a friendship thing than a personal care type thing or a health care thing. And, um, he was [00:29:00] No, he was He was thin, but he wasn't, like super sick. I mean, it was It must have been if I was 21 and it must have been 84 or something like that. And, um, I I'm pretty sure so Wellington Hospital, they got up at that. Whatever that ward was, I think they were looking after stuff, but there wouldn't have been much around to to to to do it. And, um, yeah, so and it was mostly of us out, but I was hanging out and, um [00:29:30] what ended up So he ended up committing suicide. Yeah, because, um his his family Really? You know, I mean, I think II I was I went away and he committed suicide while I was away. Um, and and then I think that was like, No, I don't get start to get a little bit hazy in terms of what was happening because most of the HIV stuff was actually happening in Auckland. You know, that was where the aids I always think of it as yids trust [00:30:00] the first thing because Bill was on that, and he, um, on the first one, and, um, and it was very much driven out by, um, Bruce Burnett and those guys in in in Auckland. So and that was where my thought was happening. You know, um and so it was really the politics was all playing out in Auckland, you know, around, you know, government and all that sort of stuff. And, um, so I sort of, like, lost a little bit of of track with that because I got [00:30:30] I was pretty. So then So there was that it was happening. And then there was the law reform happening as well. And so, you know, kind of I was pretty wasted by, you know, by the end of all of that, you know, particularly by the edge of it by by Gary. And when he, um, died because it was just I don't know, he was just like, you know, this is my age and all that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah, I was gonna ask. I mean, as a 21 year old, how do you cope with with not only his death, but also this this this [00:31:00] thing that that nobody knows where it's coming from? Yeah. Yeah, I can still see those sort of, you know, those conversations we had about, you know, what is this thing and what we're going to do and what's it going to do? And and we just It was weird. We all we just knew. We just knew it was going to be terrible. Partly because we were seeing this stuff in the US and just this sense of complete powerlessness, you know? And, um how what? Yeah. Yeah. And it had, um cause even then, I mean, [00:31:30] I remember Bill saying kind of really early on because, you know, Bill was saying, you know, Scarlett weird. You know, he was He was He was such a serious trot and all that sort of stuff. And, um and I remember him sort of saying, Oh, well, you know this. So this has got, you know, and it's got blood, and it's got death and stuff, so we're fucked, you know? You know, and and we're in the middle of it all, you know, because that, you know, nothing was there was no sense around the African stuff at all at that stage, you know, that was a and all of that sort of thing. And, [00:32:00] um, I just think it just change, starting to change the way you think about sex, you know? And it's interesting now, um, sick. Just because we're very involved in advocacy around prep, and it's fascinating now to hear young gay guys go. I've had sex for the first time ever without thinking about HIV, you know? So to me, this it's this huge [00:32:30] circle thing, you know? Um, yeah, yeah, but, um, back in it was just you could just see this, these clouds, you know, And you could see the way it was playing out in the US. And so there was that, and there was I mean, we didn't have the awareness around, you know, the US, right? You know, all the politics of us playing out and there wasn't the business, you know, we weren't asking those sorts of things about our government. It was very much, you know, this how we gonna help this guy, you know, And that [00:33:00] notion of just this, You know, this threat, this this huge threat. So how does that then feed into law reform? Because it's happening around the same time, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, And so this is where it starts getting a little bit tainted by, you know, hindsight and stuff around. Um, because I think we saw law reform. You know, we saw AIDS as being, um you know, it's pretty fatal for law reform, as in, you know that they, you know, they didn't like [00:33:30] us beforehand. Now, you know, they're really not gonna like us, and, um and that was probably true. I mean, that was, you know, the Salvation Army with them, you know, that was you know, their line was, you know, you will just unleash this. You know, this in this, um, plague on us. Um, and so I I just had this vision of all of these meetings in the, um, in the Dorian, um, these big sort of town hall meetings about strategy and things. And, you know, Alison [00:34:00] and Bill were the big drivers of that sort of stuff about, you know, we should take these lines, and we should take and, uh uh, you know, Mayor Fran, Fran Wild. You know, those sort of people about, you know, kind of what's the what's gonna what's gonna work? Um, you know, because we had um, you know, Keith Hay, we had all that petition stuff, Um, and, you know, it was it was really like a you know, it really seemed like a hearts and minds thing, you know? And, you know, there were not many politicians [00:34:30] were stepping up, you know, Um and it was, um you know, it was very it seemed very, very touch and go, you know, And and yet in the middle of all of that, there was still, you know, the, you know, the the the whole coming out, You know, it it it it it was another, you know. So I think those things are sort of like, you know, you get a blast of a big catalyst and something and, you know, you get a few years of something out of that, and I think we were in sort of like the second [00:35:00] last of that by about 84 85 or something from from an earlier one. And, um, so you know, the energy, you know, energy. A lot of young guys and women coming out, and uni has been a real hub of that, um, starting to see some of the schools as Well, you know, um um and that was where a lot of it, because, you know, there was remember all of the how cautious the teachers were and how cautious the [00:35:30] public servants were and all that sort of stuff about getting involved and being seeing involved, and, you know, and it was, um and, yeah, there were those of us who were like, Fuck it, You know, we can do that, you know, did that. And then, um, there were a lot a lot of people who were doing all the stuff in behind because that was how it could work for them. It's really interesting. Uh, you talk about the catalyst and then that that kind of energy goes on for years later because, um, often I hear people talking about 85 86 law reform. [00:36:00] That that was it just happened in those at that time, not thinking that there were many activists in the seventies and earlier that were pushing for these things to happen. So they weren't necessarily gay activists, but they might have been activists. And then it was some some point, you know, like feminists who were able to become, you know, to talk about, you know, in the late seventies to talk more about being lesbians and then come out. And, you know, I think things converged a little bit as well. [00:36:30] So what do you think That the catalyst was for that energy in in the in the mid eighties? What was what happened before that? I'm not quite sure. I think I think it was a bit about land rights. And I think it was a bit about the tour and stuff I think there was, um so many people were so, uh, affected by that. I mean, you know, particularly, you know, people like me who never, you know, had been on the wrong side of the law and then being in a you know, I remember me and [00:37:00] all of these, all of us who lived in that flat and on the terrace together. You know, in a thing Where with the cops with batons. And it was like, you know, we're middle class kids, you know? And, um, I think some of that you don't you don't undo that. And, you know, some people went on and got more and more radical. Some people didn't and didn't went off and you know that was enough for them. But I think, you know, probably there are enough to keep it going and to and to keep pushing it a bit, you know? And, you know, we [00:37:30] had a lot of energy, you know, we had a lot of energy, you know that? Uh um, just because it was all new to us, you know, And we could just And there's been so much creative stuff When you think about the nuclear stuff the, um, the stuff as well and all of those, like, I just I was just looking at it the other day. Someone else? Oh, no, this climate change, there's a big demos around climate change here, and they've got the same stuff that we used to do around the, um the ANZUS where those making this huge paper mache [00:38:00] cranes and dead babies and all that sort of stuff. You know, there was this amazing creativity and this huge energy, and, um, people are really passionate about it, and I think, you know, kind of that a lot of the same sort of people did the law reform stuff because, you know, a lot of the time in, in political movements, You don't you know, queer people. We we are just, you know, we're there. We're not making a big deal about queer stuff. We're just there, you know, with because I've I've always been, you know, I mean, and part [00:38:30] of, you know, all of these different political marches where you know we're all there. And we know that there's all these fags over here, and but, you know, we're here because it's a union march or, you know, and that that, you know, I. I think we have always had that, um and that my experience is that that that energy and that creativity, you know, um, there's a lot of power in that. Yeah, And it seems that in the in the mid eighties, the the visibility just went through the roof. Yeah, [00:39:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um, just I wonder whether it was because I I can remember the, you know, like, we were also very, very angry, you know? And we were sort of I think we were starting to be angry about HIV stuff, but not, you know, it hadn't hit. But you know of just that thing about not wanting to take it, you know, because I can remember. Um, so Neil was Neil was diabolical, you know Neil Costello. So he's, [00:39:30] um, Irish Catholic family. And he put them, uh, there's the other people will have talked about it. You know, there's this. There's this I can't remember. There's this photo around, but all I we all have this image of us head where we we had to we had to almost drag him off this little old Salvation Army lady who was on a you know, who was collecting petitions, you know, And he was he just, you know, just like and you know, he would. He was just, you know, he, um you know, really strict, you know, [00:40:00] Catholic upbringing, all that sort of stuff. And he just sort of like, er er it out of it, you know? And, um, it was a lot of that, you know, kind of. There were a few a few people here. We we were just sort of keep in the background because we knew we could We had to keep an eye on them, you know? And so so you know, there. I think passion is a lot of it, you know, and that, um, in terms of why it was particularly 85 86? Um, not sure. Not sure. I mean, you know, it's that thing about why, you know, why did people decide it was the time to do it, you know, And whether it was about what was going on this where because [00:40:30] what? It was it here. Here. It was about 85 I think was law reform. Um, yeah. And, um, you know, kind of it was it was a really big deal. And, you know, having lived here for a long time, I, I you know, the kind of the I really understand the back and forth, you know, kind of thing about New Zealand and Australia particularly, um, you know, kind of the gay thing. I mean, you know, we we are very clear around. You know how many New Zealand gay men are here? And how many New Zealand HIV positive men are here. [00:41:00] So you know, we and and how many, you know, I mean, come back and forth, you know, So it's it's a very much a thing, and, um, probably, you know, the the, um you know, the travel. For me, it was like going to Europe and going, actually. Well, the world's not like Wellington, and you can do other stuff, you know? And, um, if I hadn't gone, if I had just gone straight to uni, I'm not sure that it would have been the same, you know? So why, why Is, and was Sydney such a a draw card for for for gay men from New Zealand? [00:41:30] I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think kind of, Um I mean, for me, Um III. I just knew I needed to leave Wellington and I. I was mostly thinking about going to Auckland, and then, um my best friend, Karen. She was living over here. I came here and it was like, Wow, you know, And, uh so I just went back and said, I'm going to go to Australia, you know, And, um, I think there's lots of, you know, I think, and also it's easy [00:42:00] for a long time, you know, you could go back and forth, you know, it wasn't didn't have to be a permanent thing. I just sort of think it's that, you know, kind of and to be a and for me, I wanted to be a little fish I. I felt like, you know, I wanted to be a little fish somewhere bigger, you know? And, um, just, um yeah, so that was why you know, the Auckland thing. Um, but then just realising how much more, you know, kind of, um, possibilities were here. Yeah. So back to 85 law reform [00:42:30] and AIDS was actually used by both sides in the debate for law reform. How did how did the pro law reformers use use the topic of AIDS? It's really I mean, it was really about the, um being able to meet, you know, to be able to reach people. You know, that hiding all of this stuff was, you know, like, kind of, um, you know, we had the notion of, um there was no gay press or anything like that. The notion of how you would reach people [00:43:00] that, you know, basically, we had to reach people to talk to people about safe sex, and we couldn't do that, you know? And, um, you know, the all of that stuff was illegal, you know, going out on beat up because you know, all of that sort of stuff was, um, you know, kind of, um, really hard to do. And I think so. What we started to get was alliances with the doctors who were going to who were saying, Well, obviously, you know, we've got to stop this thing, and this is how, and, you know, they weren't lawyers and things, but, um, it was we were sort of saying, Well, what's this? Is the big threat. And, you [00:43:30] know, they, they they, um you know, the the implicit threat was to heterosexuals. You know, it was like, if you're not careful, this will escape from gay men into heterosexuals. And, um, you know, and I've always I always thinking, and I had people I've had bureaucrats tell me here that it in their mind it was the deal. You know, the deal was you know, we do you you know, you the the objective is we'll keep it. You know, we just have to keep it within the gaze, you know, [00:44:00] And then, um, and what they can There's a term that they use in in, um, epidemics around, not containment something around that, but you know, implicitly it was like, You know, we just have to make sure it doesn't spread from from gaming, you know, in our sort of countries, from gaming to heterosexuals. And, you know, So the other side of the deal was so we'll do stuff to help you sort it out, you know? And so that was where, you know, being, you know, kind of in a sense, you know, like legalisation. Um, the notion of community controlled sort of services, the notion that we'd be the ones who do [00:44:30] it, Um, partly because they didn't want to be seen to be doing it. All of those deals were were made, and they were implicitly about you. Just look after it and don't let it into the heterosexual community. I think we knew that in a funny sort of a way. And, um, you know, I don't think anyone would ever have articulated it, as you know, hard as that then, but it was I. I was stunned. It wasn't that long ago that a very senior bureaucrat told me that they were quite explicit about that being the you know, they didn't call it the deal, [00:45:00] and, you know, but that you know that was the object. You know, we'd contain it to the to the gay men. And, um, you know, so in in some weird sense, that was a success to them. You know, what were some of the tactics used by the kind of antireformers? So how did they try? And oh, I mean, a lot of it was just It was about playing around with public opinion. Um, you know, they were they were using, um, you know, they were using AIDS as, um, you know, this is what happens. You know, this is what you know, kind [00:45:30] of because the, um so they were, you know, they were using sex. They were using gay men and sex and that just somehow, um, that the laws would keep a, um, kept what kept it all under control, you know, And, um, there was a petition, you know? I mean, uh, kind of that's the main thing that sits in my head. Is that petition? You know, um, because I know that there was also, you know, there's a lot of TV stuff, and there was a lot of local a local organising by, you know, because [00:46:00] you just had the sense that we're in the cities, and you just had the sense that, you know, it was It was, you know, like the Salvation Army. And, um, you know, bits of the national party. All of these people were, you know, local, the organising against it. And, you know, kind of every so often we would get some sort of reminder that, you know, we were a little bit naive thinking that you know what you know, Wellington City people thought was what everyone else thought and what Auckland City people thought was. You know, every so often we get a reminder about that. Um, just, you know, [00:46:30] was nowhere near like it is now. But, um, just every so often there'd be a percentage, and you'd just go, Wow, you know, um or, you know, it was the It was the licence that people had to say stuff that was just, you know, so outrageous, you know, on TV and the poli politicians felt that they could, you know, that they could you know that, um, you know, they were representing a heterosexual electorate, and so they could say all of this sort of stuff was was quite astounding. Yeah. Do you have any memorable petition stories? [00:47:00] No. Neil, Neil, Neil, Neil is that is the main one or the other. The other one was that box. The box is when they delivered it to Parliament, you remember? And, um and just being so frustrated because afterwards someone told us that most of the boxes were empty, you know, and just having always regretting that, you know, someone didn't just kick a ball at them and knock them over or something, you know, Um, but just, you know, the and the and And just knowing, you know, how much theatre had gone into it from them. You know, we did theatre a lot as well and [00:47:30] stuff, but, um, just knowing all of that stuff, you know, um, because there was a box per electorate wasn't there. I think it was It was like, Yeah, they just see that there was a huge wall of them, you know? And, um and there was this whole thing of, you know, stacking them and all that. And we were We were going insane. You know, the cops, you know, we were gonna do that, but the cops, you know, kind of in between us and them, but just the way they they stacked it up and did this whole thing about delivering it to Parliament, You know, um, I don't have many. I mean, I think [00:48:00] those the stickers we did, I always remember they always I always liked that. It was, uh, must have been the year of the, um of the petition. So we did those these stickers that said, You know this, You know, this this house doesn't It was for the door to door collection, and I just sort of said, you know, this house doesn't get money to, um to be or something like that and had a And we did the, um And we had the, um, you know, a cross with the the red line through it, and I remember just to drive people crazy, you know? And I loved it, you know? Kind of. You know, we just put them up everywhere, [00:48:30] you know, um and that's the main thing. And then, um, the only other thing I was because I was thinking about it the other day, Another one, I think I think I'm sure I've got somewhere was, um the other thing that Neil was fantastic, you know? So Pink Triangle was the other thing. That was, you know, in the middle of all of this, and we it was again. It was like, um was the sort of thing that we, um Gavin was mostly Gavin Young was mostly the person behind it all, and Phil to an extent. But, um, every so often, we just sort of throw ourselves [00:49:00] into the middle of it. And I remember, um, I have this vision of, um of Douglas Douglas Jenkins, who was my best friend. And, um, I can't remember. I think it was a cover photo for one of the law, you know, in that law reform time of And then we turned into a poster that and Neil Neil did it. And, um, it was Douglas in a habit. It's this beautiful photo. He kind of had a big moustache and all this sort of stuff, and they did it at Street, and it just was amazing. And I think it was I think I think it became a poster [00:49:30] as I can't remember, I can't remember what the, um, the caption was, but and I'm pretty sure it was became the front page of Pink Triangle as well. Um, think that was a weekly monthly, I think went for years. It was an amazing magazine. Yeah, Yeah, in terms of because it was where that you know, So Phil would be getting all of the stuff in the US, and all of the new stuff would go in there, and there was a lot, you know, they have a great you know, kind of. You know, a lot of it [00:50:00] was about, uh, local journalism as well, you know, And, um, it was really well respected as a as a as a thing in, um, and had a lot of can't remember how many, you know, I can't remember. It was quite a big thing for a while, you know? And, um, I think all through the eighties at least. Yeah. Yeah. And I've also heard you on BBC radio. Yeah. Yeah. So you were kind of out there, weren't [00:50:30] you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. Um, so we set that up, and that was I mean, ABC was very much about the law reform. That was about us getting out there. And, um, the access radio people were fantastic because, um, Robin Nathan, I think it's Robin Nathan. So she was She was the part of, um, radio, and she she trained us all up. And, um, you know, and we just used to, um, you know, we'd we'd just rock up and they'd just give us They'd just sort of, like, you know, give us all this equipment [00:51:00] and say, if you go and we'd go and, you know, do interviews and record, you know, and, um and that that I'm trying to remember Dennis Altman came over, uh, must have been maybe 84. And so we tried to We were trying. It was like we tried to. We just wanted to do everything. And so So we got stuck. We We had this study about our histories, you know? And so Denis came over, and, um and we all learn how to do all histories, you know? And so we had all this stuff and we'd go and do that. And Phil was [00:51:30] I think Phil was kind of, um you know, I think we took on too many things, you know, But, um, it you know, we did a few and um, And I just, you know, kind of It was that time where, you know, there are trying to trying to because something had happened and it might have been, Yeah, it was when I think, you know, some of the older guys had died, and there was a sudden sense of what had gone, you know, because no one had ever talked to them about stuff. And so that was what kicked all that off. Yeah, And ABC was because, um I can't remember. [00:52:00] I'm pretty sure there was Les lesbian radio. I think it was. There were two lesbian radio and BBC, and, um, you know, we were pretty good, but, um, we were pretty dizzy at points, you know, and I kind of every so often, you know, we'd all had a had a really bad night the night before. And, you know, we've been half an hour playing playing records and, you know, but, um, it was great, you know, and a lot of us. Um, you know, we kept it going for quite a long time. And, um, you know, and, um, like, you know, a lot of people listened in, you know, [00:52:30] because there was, You know, radio was a thing. And, you know, kind of, um, just there was so much to talk about, you know, so much to say. Yeah. And also, when you think you know what other ways were there of getting your message out to a broad group of people. I mean, without the Internet or cellphones or anything, you know, and and, you know, TV we could never do anything on TV. Um, and, um, the Dominion. I remember the Dominion was really conservative because we used to have all these battles with them about the ads for the switchboard, whether, you [00:53:00] know, I never saw it from the church, decided that they weren't going to run the ad because it had gay in it. So so with the other words that you could have used rather than say, gay switchboard was But we didn't want to, you know? Yeah. And, um, you know, it was just a classified ad, you know? It wasn't, you know, it was about that big, you know, and I would always amazed me that people found it, you know? But it was that thing that, you know, people were, you know, voracious to to find something like that. And, you know, we I remember just how how important the ad in the phone [00:53:30] book was, you know, and getting it right and making sure it was, you know, I used to agonise over, you know, how could we make it and all that sort of stuff, you know, And I think I recall I think we had a few back and forth with the with with the phone, whatever telecom or whatever it is about about about that as well. I can't remember. I think I think we did. Um, yeah. So, you know, we did so, like, you know, say there was just this huge energy and, you know, we were just it was hoping to start to do this thing, you know, and, [00:54:00] um, the, um but then you know, kind of people, you know, like HIV graduate, took, took over. And you know, my bill and Neil and people like that. It was just, you know, it started to take over their lives, you know, and particularly the you know, the politics of it and the, you know, the AIDS trust and all of that sort of stuff. Um became a big thing. And my and the law reform stuff, the law reform stuff out of, you know, kind of, um, that was, um you know, kind of the a lot of that. So [00:54:30] there was the So we, you know, So the the older, you know, like so the bills and the Alison And they were They were they were the ones who would be, you know, kind of dealing with government and, you know, doing it. And so we were the ones who were, like, kind of being rowdy and all of that sort of stuff, you know? And and so this is the flat. And, you know, that's where um and, you know, heaps of people live around, you know, went through it. So Costello and Neil Anderson and, uh, Shane Town [00:55:00] and David Hindley and, um, turned over at various times, you know? But they were They were the people. And then and we had another. So there was another flat up the road on South Street, and there was me and Douglas and David Henley as well, So at various times so so And we were both We were all sort of like, kind of in the middle of all that sort of stuff as well. Um, but, um, yeah, it was because it was so close because I had this image [00:55:30] of it being full when we one of the marches where we we just had helium balloons and the whole, like, literally, the whole house was full of helium balloons. And, um, that we just all had to kind of, like, tie up and then take down to the mat to the to the march. That would have been one of the law reform ones. Um, and then all of those, um, you know, we were doing because we used to do our own art stuff as well. So And John used to do that. John last John was at 50th Street as well, and he, um he he took over the dances and organising all that sort of stuff. So he took over as the student. [00:56:00] The queer student sort of, um uh, officer from Neil. Maybe maybe a bit after Neil anyway. So and he he was sort of, uh what was he doing? He was an environmentalist. He was a greeny sort of guy, and, um, he he used to screen print the posters for the dancers, and, um and we all know the screen printing was a real thing. And we just, you know, kind of his. I've still got his, um, posters at home, and, um, [00:56:30] you know so and then we post them up all over the place, and then, um, the I just know because because it was always I think, uh, I think because of that stuff with the, um uh, the an, um, thing, you know, we love doing art stuff, you know, And, um, we had to, you know, kind of and just just would love to be out there, because I remember. This is so me and Hamish, he's always reminding me about it. Um, [00:57:00] when we were doing graffiti on the, um, floor, we used to we used to kind of the pink trail was everywhere, you know, And, um and, um, there's this. I used to have a big old car and, um, a big old oxford or something, and, um, you know, there was. We got stopped by the cops. I had a book full of print spray paint, and we're we're we're just kind of kind of gently. You know, it was about one o'clock in the morning on a Wednesday, and, um, we [00:57:30] were we managed to talk away completely out of it. You know, we just come from spray painting a big thing. And, you know, and, um, we were both terrified because, you know, I was never great with cops, really. And, um, we were terrified that they would open the boot. So we were just sort of talking away and chatting away. And Hamish is very good with, you know, very chatty and stuff like that. And they just were like, you know, they didn't open the boot. Sorry. It was very funny. OK, so September, uh 1986 was when the arson attack happened [00:58:00] on the the the archives. Law reform actually passed. Uh, sorry. The the homosexual law Reform bill. Part of it passed ninth of July 1986. So it was after. Yeah. So can you recall what you were doing on the night that it passed? I was in the in the upstairs gallery. Yeah. Yeah. And we were on one side, and the Christians were on the other side. And I remember the spookiest thing was that, um, in the middle of it [00:58:30] was this kid I grown up with, you know, like John from the side, who literally, since I'd been about, you know, like like, 10, 15 years. You know, we live, um, live next door. And he was on the Christian side, and I was on this side, and it was just like, fuck you know, because, um after I came out, I lost, you know, tracking and all that sort of stuff. And, um but, uh, I was just I'm trying to It's funny. I can't I can just I can see it. I can't remember what it felt like. And I think, um, [00:59:00] it was never sure, you know, it wasn't certain. We already know. We didn't know that it was going, And, um, so it was incredibly intense, you know? And, um, you know, because not many of the politicians, actually, you know, kind of made a big deal or coming out in a in a sense, there was a big grey in the middle, you know, like, kind of there was the wilds and the ones who were I can't remember who was. You know, there were There were there were clearly supportive ones, and they were the clearly opposition ones. But, you know, mostly it was [00:59:30] the ones in the middle. So it was, um And you just knew what had been going on with them in terms of everyone ringing them and harassing them and their electors and all of that sort of stuff. And everyone We did this whole thing about everyone getting their family activated and talking to everybody they knew and stuff. So it was. It was It was It was always close. You know? You know, we we was It was it was never certain. So it was It was just this amazing sort of, um know, you know, and, um but it's I, I sort of Yeah, it's one of those [01:00:00] things I can just see. You know, I can just sort of see it. And, um, I was I was my head. It was always about Fran. Really? You know, just about you know, she was just so amazing in in the middle of all of it, Really. And some of the shit she got was some of the shit she got and all of that, you know? And just, um Yeah, just absolutely resolute. She was. Yeah, but also thinking, I mean, seeing some of the the the clips with yourself and Neil on [01:00:30] TV and just the kind of shit that you guys were getting and the courage it must have taken to actually be out there in public saying this is who we are. And actually, we're going away. Yeah. True. True. You know, kind of, Um, yeah, but we were running on, you know, We we were running on, you know, years of, you know, I mean, and probably it's not surprising that it was, you know, you know, years of that, you know, Because, like, I was 15 before, I was allowed to not go to church every Sunday, you know, So, you know, and Neil were pretty [01:01:00] conservative Catholics, you know? So we had a lot of we had a lot of anger and energy to come like to work with, and, um, So it was it it it. And it was really just that thing of, um, like a revelation, you know, kind of, um, it's funny. I always I always did really think about it. You know, I you know, I always I liked calling it Gali because that was what it felt like, you know, And, you know, and and just as it changed over, you know, kind of, um, over time it became [01:01:30] a little bit more corporate and, you know, all that sort of stuff. I just you know, I always remember how you know how how we started off with it, you know, And, um, how profound that was. And you know this, you know, kind of how different it is, you know, kind of, um, you know, when when you know coming out is about, you know, going into your first bar or a bit old school about all that sort of stuff, you know? But, um, you know, as opposed to, you know, a place which is about, you know, affirming, You know, you know who you are and everything like that. Yeah. [01:02:00] And I think we you know, because, I mean, that was the and even, you know, cause cause there was that, um because, you know, from my perspective, you know, kind of economic liberation one because, you know, you know, it was about, you know, the other. The other. Um, you know, it wasn't So it wasn't as explicit in the in the, um in the law reform stuff. But, you know, there was this thing about, you know, kind of gaming as consumers, you know, I dawning on people that are actually in spend [01:02:30] money if we let them, kind of, you know, you know, out of their closets and stuff like that. And and, you know, the fact that they really won in the end is what I believe. And and, um, you know, we saw, you know, we were the ones that, you know, kind of, um I remember the really the really rich guys, um, were the ones who would go to a gym, you know, And it's all that sort of stuff, you know, And just the beginnings of all of that sort of stuff about, you know, you know, you know ourselves as commodities [01:03:00] and, you know, all that sort of thing. And and, um, all those things that no one you know, class and those sort of things that people don't really talk about so much now. But, um, that the notion that there might have been another way and that, you know, in many places there's still, you know, that's that's still there. But it's just submerged under, um, you know, under you know us as a commodity, you know? Yeah. And then you know what? Just but also the things that I mean, that's a that's a a harsh thing about it. But the thing that I love, [01:03:30] uh, I never get tired of in all of this stuff around gay marriage, even though, you know, the whole gay marriage thing. I've got a whole sort of ideas about the notion that every time I see one of those photos of, you know, a 97 year old lesbian with her 96 year old partner who's been together for 70 years and, um and the notion that you know, kind of in the eighties, you know, it was very common for people to go. Well, obviously these guys can't can't manage a relationship. And, you know, that's that was a part of the whole [01:04:00] thing was Oh, you know, they can't do that, so they'll just this little be out of control and just the fact that you never hear that anymore, you know? And, um, you know, whatever I think about the gay marriage debate. That's one of the things that it's done, you know? And it's changed what being a young gay man is in terms of, you know, thinking about what? What? You know what your life might be, you know, And I'm constantly meeting guys who are, like, you know, kind of Why can't I do that? And, you know, like, who are completely, um, have the same, you know, expectations [01:04:30] about it all, you know, not not much awareness about where it came from. But, you know, it's a fantastic thing to see, you know? Yeah, well, I have to say personally, that I'm incredibly grateful for people like yourself and Bill and Alison, Laurie and all of all of you we always talk about we talk about, um, and Neil and I just you know, I so thankful for the energy that you will put in because, um, you know, [01:05:00] I've certainly had a better life for that. And it's also lovely to I mean, my first introduction to Neil Costello was actually when I was photographing the AIDS Memorial quilt in New Zealand, and so it's really lovely now, to be able to kind of, um trace back and and and hear about him and hear about some of the stuff that he's done and see him on film and know that they're not forgotten. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because he's I made a quote from here as well. So he's, um he's in a few different places, so I don't [01:05:30] know about London, you know, But, um yeah, you know that that you know that the the notion of being touched by amazing people, you know, and that's why it's it's important. You know, the older I get, the more important those people are to me just to sort of be around a bit. And, um, yeah, so it's nice. Yeah. We've just, uh, stopped and and started the recorder again. And you were saying when we weren't recording that you'd like to comment on on, um, how [01:06:00] people change over time. I think one of the things I think to that I think we often were unfair on on our parents, you know, and, um, in terms of how they change and, you know, it was pretty, uh, a lot changed with my parents, and the interesting thing for me was quite a lot of it. happened after I left. So, um, so, mom, I mean, I was always fairly open with him or whatever I was doing, and, um, Dad didn't want to talk about it. But mum, you know, always always, you know, kind of would [01:06:30] listen about it and things. And gradually she got more and more involved in it to a point where so she was the go to go to mother, you know, for when people's mothers wanted to talk to someone, you know, And, um, she did she did it a lot, you know? And then it it, um and, uh, it sort of developed to the point where she so I I'm actually positive. And I see her converted [01:07:00] in 94. And, um, I told them in 95 and so she became a bit of a go to for around HIV as well for for parents, too. And, you know, this was all her, you know, kind of, um, you know, we were, you know, kind of while I was there up until 87 I sort of, like, got ended up getting out of the the switchboard because there was so much else going on. But it was a, um it was a big deal, you know, kind of knowing that [01:07:30] and, um, hearing other people talk about her, you know, having you know that they sort of had independent relationships with her about this stuff. And, you know, Bill, you know, kind of knew her and things as well. And the other thing I was always that I always, you know, kind of remembered is So Dad, um, you know, was a late preacher, and our church was Saint Andrews on the terrace. And, um, there is there. They have all these stories. I remember, you know, they've had ministers for years, [01:08:00] and, um, you know, he started off fairly tormented about all of that. But, you know, gradually, you know, you know, worked his way around that, And the thing I remember, it wasn't until ages later that I met one of the young, like, sort of, um, junior priests or whatever you call them. And she told me this story about how dad had gone. So they they have a rainbow church, so they you know, gas and Christians meet there. And so she told me this story about how dad had gone and, you know, sat down and talked with them [01:08:30] about what it was like having a gay son. And he never told me. And, you know, this would have been in the nineties, you know, And, um, you know, and how profound it was for them and stuff like that because, you know, he's a You know, my dad was a fairly serious, frightening guy, and, um and I just I was always startled by that, you know that, Um it was just this thing he did. And they they were very, um, they were both. I think they would do the What do you call it, The supper for the gay lesbian Christian thing. That was, you know, you know, so So where they came from and where they ended up. You know, [01:09:00] I think it was always quite profound. And it's it's a you know, it's a very personal thing for me, you know, because it's my life, you know, that's it doesn't really fit in with other people. But it was that notion of just where, you know, they came such a long way. And, you know, it's not something that I take the responsibility, you know, you know, I might have helped the ones get started, but, um, just where they ended up and, you know, my sister's now you know, she's an elder at the church and she's the same, you know? So, um, I just think, uh, you know, it's about, [01:09:30] you know, the the it's you know about all you know it it It's not just an individual thing. It's you know, it it impacts all of us, and it changes all of us, yeah.
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