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And now to welcome our next guest, the Awe, who has been a catalyst for change in a for nearly five decades, especially as a fierce advocate for both LGBT and Maori women's rights. In the 19 seventies, she published New Zealand's first openly lesbian fiction, the same decade that she was denied entry to the United States for being gay. That caused her to take up the microphone at the University of Auckland, asking if her peers were comfortable with her treatment, a call to action [00:00:30] that led to a stronger voice for the gay liberation movement in New Zealand. A limited edition with extra stories of her fiction collection. Tahiri has just been published. It fictionalises her experiences as a Maori teenager, uh, who was attracted to girls in 19 fifties and 19 sixties Rotorua. She has also published extensively in other areas and is a highly respected academic. And she's our guest in the Hamilton studio. [00:01:00] Lovely to talk to you, Catherine. Lovely to be here. Yes, last time we were talking about, um, about a book that you had, uh, uh co-authored from memory. Uh, it was some years ago now, and I'm just trying to bring the title up again. Um um the world of Maori tattoo, which won the, um, Maori Inaugural Book of the Decade in 2008 or 9000 Montana [00:01:30] as well. Yes. I beg your pardon. It was published 2007. You did. I recall that now, uh, and also, um, another book you have written in the weaving Legacies 2015 has been published since. And it occurs to me the strands to use the analogy of your life rich as they are just reading of your childhood, one can see how this goes right back to a very, um, rich cultural immersion in many ways, uh, in [00:02:00] the traditional world, traditional Maori world, uh, equally in the world of classical music was much of this career laid in those early years, Do you think? Oh, I think so. I was actually really privileged to be raised by a family of weavers, of storytellers, of tourist guides of extraordinary, unstoppable, fierce and courageous women in the village of in our house [00:02:30] was interesting in that there were lots of people coming and going as is common with Maori households even today and yet at the same time to being in There was an incredible exposure to an experience of visitors of, of people coming in to admire the thermal environment, to gawk at the elements of our culture which we permitted them or invited them into. And, [00:03:00] um so I was really very, very lucky. I had a you know, I had a brilliant grandmother and a really stunning mother. And to them, I will always be grateful they were weavers, brilliant weavers with a belief in excellence, I think particularly your Yes, that's right. Yeah. She was the, um Weaver who produced the cloak for Elizabeth, the second in the first royal visit. 1953 54. So even though I'm utterly hopeless with fibre, [00:03:30] I was privileged to grow up with the scent of it with the production of it, with the magic of care of indigenous fibres All around me as a little girl, right up into, um, adolescence, also part and And I get the sense also just reading in your own words. I get the sense also that you felt very nurtured in every way. Um, which I always think is an important thing in some ways. For those who are going to lead [00:04:00] the charge. You know, it takes tremendous confidence to be the first. Sometimes to stand up and say, Come on, people, we've got to take this on. Yes, that's true. I would say, though, that, um I also had my hard times. A lot of it, um, through my own antics and, um, stubbornness, but as, um as a little girl that liked other girls, you know, there was always that tension. Um, there were lots of [00:04:30] other, um, difficulties to growing up at home and in the in the village. Um, but the women with whom I was nurtured gave me the strength and showed me how you can do stuff. You can make your dreams come true. You don't need men. Um, things will be OK. They instilled in me, particularly my a real sense of hope. And, um, I've never, ever forgotten [00:05:00] that a cousin is Donna again. Someone right at the forefront of of activism. Um, it, uh you know, we're going to talk in a moment how far things have come. But we've we we don't want to forget just how hard it was. And again the sacrifices that people made, uh, and what they put up with, really and taking on many courses. Multiple courses in in in your case. But you've been great friends, I think, for a long time. And I'm interested also because there was time [00:05:30] in Wellington. This was your convent school in, uh, in Wellington and just again, reading between the lines, the role of the nuns, who in some ways back in the day were perhaps the first sort of manifestation of these independent women, you know, um, practising their careers and, uh, ostensibly in charge of the finances, such as they were, uh, what was the influence there for better and for worse. Oh, absolutely huge. I was only in Wellington at Mount Carmel in for [00:06:00] a year. It was like my my strange, um, introduction to high culture. But, um, returning to at age nine after a year of Monteverdi and bark and, um, some really quite extraordinary, um, Western cultural experiences, even though I was only eight or nine, I came to Saint Michael's school in and it was run by these astonishing [00:06:30] Irish nuns Sister Mary, Sister Mary Bertrand um, Sister Boni. And they really were role models. in that they enveloped us with their confidence, their trust, their vision. We were a really interesting school. Um, every imaginable type of non-english speaking immigrant from Europe was there. At one point, [00:07:00] we had something like 17 different nationalities. The school only went to standard six or form two and was, um, a three classroom school beneath the mountain. Or the nuns were remarkable task mistresses and stunning role models. There was nothing they could not do, which included concreting, the tennis court and driving trucks and coaching the boys in football. They [00:07:30] were truly amazing women, your academic career. I I'm interested because this seems to be as it is for many people, let alone in the late sixties, early seventies, personally and indeed at a political level, Um, a fractious time, uh, a time where so many possibilities are opening and yet equally doors seem to be closed on you as well. And, uh, and I think you alluded to, you know, some of the personal, um, challenges that that anyone goes through at this time of life. What was happening? What what were you [00:08:00] studying and equally what was happening late sixties early seventies around the emergence. Both of, uh, women's liberation gay liberation. Um, indeed, Um, uh, the movement was developing as well. Where were you at? I guess at this time. Oh, dear. That's a long story. I, um I think I'll jump a few years and, um, ignore the fact that I began at law school, got two thirds of a law degree and [00:08:30] found myself getting A's in English, which I enjoyed immensely. I was doing a double degree and shifted to English literature and art history. Um, I was one of the more enthusiastic and rambunctious um, teenagers at the University of Auckland. I spent about a week in the Princes Street version of the Labour Party. Didn't really fit me very well, but I made lots of friends. And in, uh, late 1970 [00:09:00] a few of us tried to start a women's liberation group because we were sick of just ignoring handouts for the anti-vietnam and anti apartheid movements and being basically servants and, um, hand maidens to the boys whom I will not name. And so a few of us decided that the movement that was manifesting in the British Isles and [00:09:30] the USA was looking relevant and interesting for us. And, um, we attended an event in August 1970 at the university. Unfortunately, predictably, it was disrupted by the engineering students, all male, hideous and, um, completely maniacal in terror. We fled and gave up until, um after the summer break in early 1971 February [00:10:00] March and the arrival of a really charismatic and interesting woman who was doing her, uh, masters degree at Auckland, Um, in politics. And she and a group of others called our first meeting. We began with consciousness raising groups, and amongst them were people like Susan Edgeley, Sharon Seman, Pat Ogilvie, uh, Kay Turner and various others, [00:10:30] as well as my cousin Donna and me as the only two very brave Maori. What was interesting, too, is that a parallel, uh, group had started with Jackson and Sid Jackson. And that, of course, was so that in lots of respects, we were, uh, parallel activist groups. The Polynesian Panthers were [00:11:00] also emerging from what was then the most extraordinary and vibrant Pacific ghetto Ponsonby and Grey Lynn. And so Auckland, in a way, was a a fulcrum of extraordinary, exciting and exultant political activity with youth with young people not just, um, intellectuals and, uh, university students. But right across, um, all the different, um, communities. [00:11:30] It was a It was an exciting time. And I think one of the reasons is that economically, it was a relatively stable time so that we could branch out. We didn't have to, um, constantly worry about paying our fees or paying our rent. Um, we were the beneficiaries of an incredibly socialist and generous, um, political system, which in [00:12:00] many ways privileged us with the understanding that if we passed our exams, if we did well, if we followed our careers with passion and focus, then government would continue to pay our fees and give us allowances. So it wasn't just about mucking around being fabulously political. It was also about applying ourselves as students, whereas now students, no matter how brilliant, still have to have jobs still have to pay the rent, still [00:12:30] have to buy textbooks at their own or their parents expense. And that really troubles me. We should say, Of course, she went on to complete your your PhD. But around this time, if we are looking at, um uh, I guess where our conversation is heading, which is being at the forefront of, um, gay liberation for want of of a of a of a better term If we talk about the moment of the time there's a a picture here that's startling. Um uh, a startlingly [00:13:00] powerful image of you. Uh, this is in crack the student newspaper in in 1971. We are not dangerous or subversive perverts, but real and thinking individuals. Excuse me. Why should we hide our faces while the public exposes it? Bigot, Why should we be invisible? What were the experiences of you and so many others of the time, including in the academic environment? Oh, my goodness. Um, I I wrote [00:13:30] that piece for crack, and it was called lesbianism. The elegance of unfettered love. And it was published in July 1971. Um, it was primarily about reassuring. Our parents and our teachers and people like Patricia Bartlett who had huge traction at that time that, um, we had a lot to give. We had a lot to do as well as that too. You know, there was tremendous [00:14:00] pain and agony and hypocrisy and evil, um, affecting our brothers, our cousins, our fellow students, our uncles, our own family members. And of course I'm referring particularly in my case, to the community in which I was raised. Um, uncles who were revered who were, um, respected, lived in constant fear [00:14:30] of being exposed or or being jailed for the mere fact that they preferred the company and the sexual, um, pleasures with other men. And it it was wrong. You know, I just felt that the bigotry and the, um the silencing the way that if you were like that, as long as you were like that quietly and with secrecy [00:15:00] and no one else knew, then you could get on your life, get on with your life, and everything would be fine. Well, that just wasn't true. That wasn't real. When that article was published, I was kind of Well, I was confronted by a number of women, many of whom were my mentors, um, lecturers, um, significant, uh, political figures. But one outstanding example came from, um, a confrontation [00:15:30] in her office with a senior Auckland University academic who accused me of the heinous, um, offence of encouraging younger women to undertake an unsavoury and unhealthy life and, you know, vulnerable young girls at the University of Auckland should not be exposed to such ideas because they were unhealthy, unsavoury and unwholesome. Um, [00:16:00] you know, I think now, with openly lesbian and homosexual members of parliament, we live in a completely different world. And yet, in some ways, too, though, Catherine, I worry about that, because does a change of law necessarily affect a change of heart? You know, how deep are the differences that government can legislate to decriminalise or, um, enable [00:16:30] the so-called, um, equality of sexes And in the in the, um, situation of the USA now, of, um, ethnicities and religions, You know, when we're dealing now in the time of fear and doubt and actual dread when it comes to the USA, Um, how deep are the differences and how real is the poverty of spirit that created [00:17:00] Brexit and, um, voted for Trump? It is interesting. It's a very interesting observation. The fish, um, and how they get exposed. And in many instances, both in Europe and in the United States, it is immigrants. The irony of this in the US, which is, you know, uh, will will will remain if you look at you know, 202 150 years of history of, uh, the country in its current form, Um, uh, dominated by those who have come as immigrants And [00:17:30] the story, of course, of its indigenous people, Uh, alongside that. But the irony of it that this has now become such a focus for so many. But those fishes emerge at certain times, don't they? And I? I think that's what you're alluding to. Because if you look at the New Zealand situation, you had first the decriminalisation of homosexual acts between men, civil unions. Uh, then, um, marriage, gay marriage. Um, now, most recently the, um, getting rid of the convictions, historic convictions for people prepared [00:18:00] to go through that process. But that, as you say is, is AAA legal process. And the issue is really how much in your words has has the change of heart happened? Where do you assess that? And in many instances, it demonstrably has. But do you still fear that, um, I don't know, unpleasantness, unkindness, discrimination still does and risks increasingly rearing its head again. How are you looking at at at things now? [00:18:30] Well, I I I consider places like are small towns in the Heartland of Aotearoa, New Zealand, and the safety of young lesbian women walking down the main street Holding hands are all young men walking down the main street and holding hands and being openly affectionate. And they know they are taking [00:19:00] a risk when they do that. Um, I think about the rugby clubs and sports clubs of my own communities and how open affection displayed between streets is, um, OK, it's normal. It's what good red blooded, uh, young people who have the hots for each other do. But if that type of, um expression were to occur [00:19:30] between two women or two men, there would still be sniggering. There would still be disapproval. There would still be disdain. Um, even now and even in recent months, uh, men have been young men, vulnerable men have been beaten to death or badly injured, um, for expressing affection or lust for someone [00:20:00] else. Someone of their own sex. Um, for me, this indicates fear. It shows us that underneath the cosmetic and, um, superficial legislative processes that say, um, but government allows this behaviour. It is OK. There is still this enormous resistance within the human heart. There is still this sense, particularly with the rise of the Christian right and the [00:20:30] prevalence in the Maori world of, um, some extraordinary fundamentalist religion. Abrahamic religion. Um, you know, we we are we are seeing I won't say exactly a violent backlash. But the sniggering, the snide remarks, the disapproval, the rejection or the fear of rejection remains. And a lot of particularly powerful Maori people who may well be gay or prefer their own sex for pleasure [00:21:00] are still in the closet. Mental health outcomes, mental health outcomes for all youth is of a of a concern to us. Um, for Maori youth, a particular concern to us and and for queer youth, a particular concern to us. And that word rejection is that in many ways the most dangerous thing the fear of rejection, that or that that fear, that you're not OK as who you are. But OK, we'll put the laws in place, and, uh, we do all the, uh, the the gestures and the rules. But [00:21:30] in the end of people aren't openly accepting if people still make someone else feel like they are other, that in many ways is the most serious harm done. Yes, I think it is. I think you're right. That, um rejection, particularly by the people that you love and by the people that you trust, um, can be the most damaging and heinous and ghastly experience. And it does not surprise me. I mean, we've [00:22:00] just come out of a very long process and research project about death in the Maori world. Um, this is the Maori and Psychology Research unit at Waikato University. And one of our findings has been the correlation with, um, queer Maori, um, vulnerable young teenage males particularly, and their own, uh, self identity and the rate of attempted suicide and actual suicide. [00:22:30] And often beneath all that is, um, the damage wrought by older men who are in the closet. Um, when there is an event like Pride Week or same same but different book festival celebrated in the hinterlands of a New Zealand in, um, small communities in places where [00:23:00] a good keen man is a straight man. When that happens, then I think we can actually congratulate each other on having gone forward. And yes, it's not all completely hopeless. I've just spent the last week at Catherine at the wonderful um, it was 35,000. Plus, I think I was watching some of it on Maori television, actually thinking that's got to be a go to it. It absolutely is. And yet for me, you [00:23:30] know, it was about celebration. It was about jubilation. It was about exultation. It was about all the grand and fabulous and glorious aspects of being Maori. And yet, you know, I don't want to sound like Trump, but mainstream media looks away from it. You know, it is stuff like that which we need to celebrate because it is. It is an event like or like Pride Week, in which we see, [00:24:00] um, we see us, we see my communities. Um, we see the hope and the positivity, and not just the cosmetic glamour and the silliness. But we actually see the considered and the sound and the creative emerge. And that's where the hope is. Um, yeah, thank you. It was very, very powerful, actually. And it's it's absolutely on my must go to list because I imagine, as a live event, it's just absolutely profound. [00:24:30] Thank you. Thanks again. The book This fiction collection has just been published with some extra stories.
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